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And it hits me, Oh my
gosh, this is that triangle. You

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know, there's explanation for everything that
occurred in the Randelsham Pars incident that doesn't

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involve aliens at all. It was
completely silent. It comes right over our

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heads classics also really standing into clearing. He turned over to my father and

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held his hand, and he looked
in his eyes and he said, we're

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not alone. Hey, hello,
everyone, This is Martin Willish, your

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00:00:27,079 --> 00:00:31,160
host. And if you're hearing this, you're listening to the audio podcast.

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00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,159
First of all, I do appreciate
every single listener, and if you support

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00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,399
the show now, I want to
thank you very much, and I apologize

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00:00:39,439 --> 00:00:42,399
that you actually have to listen to
this. If you listen to a lot

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of podcasts out there, you'll know
that there's a lot of podcasts that run

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ads, and I do get approached
all the time to run ads, and

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when I started this almost twelve years
ago, I vowed not to do that.

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But I do need your help as
the show is quite costly. Some

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of the expenses are bannedwidth use,
website maintenance, graphics, blogs, audio

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blogs, and of course sometimes there's
travel expenses. I'd like to do more

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00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:10,400
of that go to conferences things like
that. If you can help us out

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for two dollars or more a month, you'll see the Patreon link in the

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text below. I would appreciate it
very much. Thanks, and I hope

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you enjoy today's show. Hello,
and welcome to the show. We have

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some type of check thing going on
here. I'm trying to figure out.

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00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:38,879
I'm not sure exactly how that happened. We have an issue here, Okay,

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got it, found it. Thank
you everyone for your patients every once

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in a while. It's a lot
better these days than it used to be.

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But I used to get teased a
lot because I don't have sometimes the

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best technical capabilities. But we've got
things ironed out over the years, more

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or less, and so I just
had to remind everyone the way it used

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to be. So welcome to the
show. I'm Martin Willis your host tonight.

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We have a great upologists. I'm
really excited to talk to Chris Styles

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up in Nova Scotia. I think
they celebrated their Canada Day or whatever it

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was in July. First. We're
holding this show a day early because of

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the celebration. Tomorrow. I know
a lot of people are going to be

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watching fireworks, so I thought it
would be best to in the United States

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for the listeners there, it would
be better to do this show a day

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early. So I appreciate those who
are watching live and coming into the show

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and Chatt and all that, and
so a couple of things. A blog

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this week is by Charles Lear.
As usual, this one is called t

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shirt worthy UFO Headlines and there are
some very interesting ones, and this one

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in particular about elephants snatched by a
UFO and it's funny. When Charles was

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researching this one, he said,
there seemed like there was something actually kind

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of a legitimate about this particular case. So anyway, check out the blog.

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It's over at podcast ufo dot com
and we have new blogs every week

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which turned into audio blogs. And
so I am ready to bring in our

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guests from the North. Chris Styles, welcome to the show. It's great

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to be here, Martin and see
you again. And wasn't so so Hawaiian?

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So yeah, tropic it's up here
right now. I mean just a

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pea soup, a flog and it's
a boat as warm as what we normally

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expect for April. But you know, we'll probably be melting down in a

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week. That's how it goes here. Yeah, two satans in Nova Scotia.

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One is if you don't like the
weather, wait ten minutes. But

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the better one is actually what comes
after two days of rain Monday? Oh

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I don't quite get that one,
but you know where I live up in

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Maine, they have I think they
say three seasons. It's Winter's coming,

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Winter's going in winter, and then
this fourth of July that is that is

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a fourth season. Yeah, but
anyway, great to have you on,

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and I have to say that I
was thrilled to Now. I know it's

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kind of hard to show this cover, but I was, Yeah, weird

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things here, but sweet clear five
this wonderful book you sent me the manuscript

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for and I really enjoyed reading it. And I have learned a whole new

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respect for you in your work and
how thorough of work that you do,

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and you won't let go of something
and I love that. And what I

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want to remind you of is the
last time you were on the show,

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I was conflating the two incidentss of
Shag Harbor and the Shelburne USO as one,

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and I went into detailed it says, he didn't they find this,

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you know what further and they went
down and they saw, you know,

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the beings and all this stuff,
and you said, well, this could

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be something that might be something different. You didn't really get into it then,

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and you were in the middle of
working on this and so, and

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you've had to struggle with this one. You people were joining the two together

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as one incident. Shelburne happened in
nineteen sixty and shag Harbor happened in nineteen

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sixty seven. So how do you
think they first were like joined together?

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People were were putting the two together
as one incident to begin with. Well,

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to be honest, the fault for
some of that probably lies with myself.

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Really, No, no, no, quite seriously, I'll tell you

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because let's just give you a real
quick timeline as to how that came about.

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Really, I mean, I became
involved with uphology would have been what

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April of ninety two, And you
know that story is told in the book

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The Thing is in ninety two,
I delved into it. I didn't know

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what I was doing. I hope
I learned from mistakes, and I believed

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I did. And sorry, I'm
I'm suffering technical issues here and I'm not

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even sure how that came up from
last week. Hmm, here we go.

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Okay, sorry about that, it's
okay, interesting. Yeah, I

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don't believe my audio was cut,
so whatever, that's right now we heard.

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Yeah. Anyway, one year later, I'd reached the point in the

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development of Shag Harbor, which was
you know, in this in a way

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may sound like, but I've always
thought of the case as the years went

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by as the gift that keeps on
giving. Maybe not monetarily, certainly not

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monetarily. However, you know,
in terms of like every time you would

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go down an avenue of research,
right, every time you'd have a tip

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and check it out, the case
grew and grew in strength. You know,

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there was something to it, and
that continues to this day, not

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as frequently as it did in those
exciting years of the nineties, right for

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me, but you know, it
just every day there was something in the

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mailbox, there was a contact,
a story to be telled. The case

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quickly grew and nobody ever related anything
that you know, diminished its importance or

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the interpretation of it. But the
first time the problem came up, my

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first awareness of the Shelbourne USO story
was first presented to me a year after

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beginning, and this would have been
in April of nineteen ninety three, and

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I finally felt I was ready for
face to face interviews with you know,

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the divers, eyewitnesses, our CMP, local fisherman and whatever. I was

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lucky enough. I had a friend
in high school whose father I knew was

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head of the Fleet Diving United at
Maritime Command in Halifax, and I contacted

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him and asked if he had any
idea who the people were that had dove

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on the Shag Harbor mission. The
newspapers and other sources had mentioned there'd been

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seven, and he just named them
right off. But he kept naming names,

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and eventually he gave me more than
seven. And this is all,

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of course, within the new book, there's about the Shelburne case, but

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the thing is the other cases.
He said, yeah, I don't know

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if you want them. You know
about Shelburne telling you and I'm like,

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well, Shag Harbors and Shelburne County, so that were to referring to.

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He said, you talked to the
guys all straight and you would on this,

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so they had no idea. I
was going to contact them, and

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when I did, yes, they
talked about Shag Harbor. And when I

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would first make contact, it would
be like, yeah, I guess we

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can talk about that. It was
a long time ago. Now, gee,

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never thought i'd have anybody calling me
about this. And eventually, you

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know, face to face interviews were
arranged. But even in that first bone

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call before I went, they kept
saying, you know about Shelburne, don't

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you. And I'm saying, well, what do you mean, Do you

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mean Shag Harbor that's in Shelburne County
Again, No, no, he says,

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oh, by the base he said. I said, well, is

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this nineteen sixty seven? Because I
knew the day to Shag Harbor. They'd

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say, maybe I don't know at
the time. Remember in the nineties when

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I'm doing this, this case,
the Shelburne case is already thirty three years

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old then, and these guys don't
write down cheat notes, you know.

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I mean, you're in the Navy, you're told to forget it right,

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you know, you don't own these
missions. And then he says maybe I

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don't think so. Then I can
remember in that first interview, and I'll

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tell you I've learned over the year
as Murden, the first interviews, first

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impressions are crucial, and I think
you can see this even in psychological tests

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00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,080
like a loosher color test, where
they'll get a person upon the first time

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to do it twice. But you
go by that first result, you know,

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and there's often something in that first
and everywhere before they start to filter

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and edit the answers or you know, the concerns grow when they see how

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far you're pushing for answers, you
know, and pushing their buttons maybe even

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but so they're saying like, yeah, you don't will chelburn Nope by the

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00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,200
base and they said, yeah,
it might have been then, No,

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I thought it was around the Cuban
missile crisis back then, Well that would

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have been October sixty two, And
that statement always stayed with me. So

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anyway, when they tell the story, they're a bit unclear. You know,

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even in the conversation before I did
the face to face interviews in the

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home that you know, it wasn't
clear what the time frame was or this

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sort of thing. But when I
went there, but it was clear front

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of the first phone call that the
Shelburne story was quite different than my memory

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00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,240
of the Shag Harbor and said,
and my memory as a twelve year old

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00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,559
boy, was from reading it in
the newspaper and hearing the account of my

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00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:18,080
grandfather who was one of the many
non reporting witnesses in the area Shag Harbor

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00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:22,039
back in sixty seven. And it
was very odd because you know, it

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00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,879
was clear we were taught on something
quite different that they were saying, well,

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00:11:24,879 --> 00:11:28,480
you know, if Shelburne, the
expression that all the divers said was

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00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,960
you know, there was no doubt. Off shelburn No, off Shelburne.

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00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,759
It was alien They go, Shag
Harbor was a real case. But by

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00:11:35,799 --> 00:11:39,320
the time we got there, you
know, it was pretty much over,

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00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,399
you know, it had gone and
whatever. But he said in Shelburne,

155
00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:46,279
there's no doubt. He says,
we came pace to pace with aliens under

156
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:52,159
the water. And you know,
I was like, okay, now it

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00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,320
may sound funny, but like my
friend Bob McDonald and the other people had

158
00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:58,559
involved with at the time that were
trying to guide me, one of them

159
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:05,440
being the late Stanton Friedman, they
found that very exciting, and strangely enough,

160
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,600
I didn't because I had this weird
ideal in my mind Martin. I

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00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,279
thought, you know, I'm not
going to have the problems at Stanton Head

162
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,200
and Roswell, I'm not going to
have multiple locations. I'm not going to

163
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,600
have yes, it happened here,
know what happened there? Or you know,

164
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all kinds of add on tales and
questions later. And I thought,

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00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,559
yeah, okay, Well, I
knew you couldn't pick or choose your data,

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00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,279
and I'd listen to everything they said
respectfully, but I you know,

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00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:39,600
I certainly didn't prioritize him when I
went to the home man. You know,

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the story went way viewond what I
knew about Shag Harbor and what everything

169
00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:50,039
up to that point had led me
to go. But again it was open

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00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,039
as to whether they were connected.
You know, we knew the date of

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00:12:52,039 --> 00:12:58,799
Shag Harbor. And by the way, the former head of the unit that

172
00:13:00,039 --> 00:13:03,600
had given me the contact information with
these men said that one of them had

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00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,639
doulved, and I was seeking him
out on both missions, right, and

174
00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:11,639
he thought there was only one.
Only turned out he was right. But

175
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,519
thus began the wild ride that it
was. And I think the book portrays

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00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,399
at the first half of this little
book, I've done with you. By

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00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,679
the way. Thank you so much
for you know, writing a forward to

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00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:28,679
it, you know, and expressing
your opinions. Yeah, it was so

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00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,759
you're you've got a leg up on
this one over most people. The thing

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00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,360
is in the book, as you
know. It's like, I wasn't that

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00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,480
enthosed at first. I saw it. I saw the Shelburne story as a

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00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,840
problem. And all the people that
were helped me at the time, and

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00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,200
they were many, they were like
local friends. There were people like stand

184
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,240
pre even members of move On who
were trying to contribute as word was leaking

185
00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:56,559
out of the progress I'd made on
you know, the documentation of the shag

186
00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:03,679
Herber incident. That they couldn't understand
my lack of enthusiasm for it, you

187
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,360
know, I mean future co authors
of mine, like Don Lyncher, Well

188
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,039
look at me and say, don't
you think that's the beaten potatoes of the

189
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,759
case. That's the wrap up?
You know, you're saying they got away

190
00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,039
under the water. Why didn't it? And I had a million reasons why.

191
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,159
I thought, well maybe, but
I'm not impressed. But that would

192
00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:26,440
certainly change over time. But anyway, because of that ambiguity and the fact

193
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:35,840
that yes, co authors television producers, editors certainly text editors, and the

194
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,679
books and whatever thought you don't shake
herber so much stronger if they are connected.

195
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,320
And I didn't know enough that I
could say that it wasn't. But

196
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,360
I never felt good about it,
Murtin. Right from the start. I

197
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,200
always had questions and issues. And
the thing is, you know, the

198
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,679
Shag Harbor case, when you look
at the outline, the shell of what

199
00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:56,799
happened there was so strong and so
certain and so well documented. I had

200
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:03,240
a problem that the ending wouldn't have
been nigh and if Shelburne was merely the

201
00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:07,600
ending, you know, the grand
finale of it, it should have been

202
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,960
more solid. And it was the
one part of the story unlike everything else

203
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,720
that which I every where there didn't
seem to be any supporting documentation. And

204
00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:22,519
that wasn't good enough for me.
And you drove right into trying to find

205
00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:28,440
that out and oh yeah, and
then how did that go? Poorly at

206
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:35,240
first and not great for twenty nine
years? But I learned a lot,

207
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:39,159
I'll tell you. And the first
the first section of the book, I've

208
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,720
warned people that, you know,
before we get into Aliens under the Water,

209
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,720
anyone that wants to take on the
challenge of reading this little book.

210
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,679
Is that the first half of the
book is the quest. Yeah, the

211
00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:54,679
quest the twenty nine years I spent
with blind Alleys making mistakes. Boy,

212
00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,840
it would be a great lesson I
think for anybody you know that way.

213
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,960
But well, I'll tell you why. I really enjoyed that part of the

214
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:08,360
book myself, because it shows how
thorough and how unforgiving you are when it

215
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:14,600
comes to letting go of something.
You know, Yeah, you just kept

216
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,480
pursuing, where I think most people
would just kind of like, Okay,

217
00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:21,799
it's just too much. I can't. I can't do it, you know.

218
00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:26,080
Yeah. Stanton used to call me
the bulldog. Yeah, he would

219
00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:29,919
Grant and he'd say, man,
you know, if you if your interview

220
00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:33,480
and people would ask, what's the
story about styles anyway, he would always

221
00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,039
say, Oh, he's a bulldog. Yeah, he gets on your there's

222
00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:38,759
something hid and look out. You
know, he ain't going away. You

223
00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:45,240
know, it just presents and you
know that's largely true. But I mean,

224
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,679
and you know yourself from heaven,
you know, read the Book of

225
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,960
Courses that you know, in several
chapters it takes many forms of like it

226
00:16:53,039 --> 00:16:56,919
wasn't just simply you know, a
paper chase with Ottawa, you know,

227
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:03,000
with our National archives right now known
as Library and Archives Canada. It took

228
00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:07,119
many forms. People would call with
stories. I would question websites and tear

229
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,400
them apart and talk to the people
who'd set them up. And I would

230
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,519
find mistakes in the rors. I
would go through like ships logs or dozens

231
00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:22,000
of destroyer escorts and find one little
discrepancy between that and what was on a

232
00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,519
website of someone's memory of you know, picking up girls in Mountry all the

233
00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:29,680
same weekend this happened, and I
would look into it. I would contact

234
00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:33,400
people. I would like pound the
pavement. I would flesh it out,

235
00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:36,519
and you know, when there was
an error, it had to be accounted

236
00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:40,599
for, because it's just the way
I am, you know, I just

237
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:42,799
you know, it's like Columbo.
I have this little problem, you know,

238
00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:45,880
with this record. You know,
because you know, we all know

239
00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:51,400
governments and bureaucracies, and certainly when
you get in things like navies and ships

240
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,559
captain you know, paperworkers, methodical, meticulous mistakes are made, but they're

241
00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:00,240
pretty rare. They're pretty rare,
and the cost can be high, you

242
00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:06,039
know, So I always thought through
all those years of searching, and like

243
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,079
anyone that reads the book, we'll
see all the different methods that were applied

244
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,119
and used on the logic of how
we got there and the arguments I got.

245
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,079
I mean, in the beginning,
I think there's a bit of humor

246
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,759
there when friends of mine would look
at me and they'd say, you know

247
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:22,000
what you are, You're a spoiled
brat. They'd say, you know,

248
00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:23,559
shak Harbor, you know, you
just go on to this, your first

249
00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:27,920
case, and you know everything's coming
up great, you know, and it's

250
00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:32,480
wilder than that. But you know, I think that, you know,

251
00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:34,599
the Shelburne case is connected, and
I think it's all that in a bag

252
00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:38,240
of chips, they would tell me. But look, if I wasn't looking

253
00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:41,839
for meat and potatoes, like Don
Leger used to say, and if I

254
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,640
wasn't, I wasn't looking for chips
either, you know, and too many

255
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,920
of them laying around the host.
And the thing is I wanted I wanted

256
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,319
the evidence. I wanted to prove. I wanted to know because the stories

257
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,799
that these divers told, you know, when I was in the homes was

258
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,480
just crazy, know, not because
they weren't the first people to talk about

259
00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:07,640
aliens. But when they would first, you know, get into the details.

260
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,480
I would ask the questions, and
I see the turmoil that caused them

261
00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:15,200
eventually fear, and how the interviews
would break down. I mean, these

262
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,519
were men. You know, if
you're a diver, and I spoke to

263
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,119
divers that were in both the Canadian
Navy or the Royal Canadian Navy and the

264
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,839
United States Navy, you know,
that's a tough gig. That's a tough

265
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,359
gig. You know, these guys
do nasty work, you know, hauling

266
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,599
bodies out of aircraft that have crashed. Just nasty stuff. You know,

267
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,720
it's it's it's top and the requirements
to do well and rise through the ranks,

268
00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:42,200
and it are not easy. And
when you meet these men, if

269
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,279
there's ever such a thing as,
you know, men of iron, you

270
00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:48,400
know, there may not be many
wooden ships anymore. These guys are it.

271
00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:53,039
And when I would push for answer, and when they would, you

272
00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:56,480
know, get into the details,
you know, and I'd see them eventually

273
00:19:56,519 --> 00:20:00,559
reach a point where they couldn't make
eye contact with me, look at the

274
00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:03,400
floor and start to tear upper,
telling me I had to move on.

275
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,519
It made an impression on me.
I never you know, you knew this,

276
00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,839
and I'd hit this time and again. Bear in mind when I say

277
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,880
this time and again, there's not
a great deal that would talk. I

278
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,720
mean, nineteen oh to twenty.
You'd go to the door and your dock

279
00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:18,599
and they just say, we can't
talk about that, and slammed the door,

280
00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:22,240
you know, and they look fearful, some of them when they said

281
00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:25,119
it, and say, oh,
you know, they would be an expletive

282
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,200
where they'd swear and slammed the door, you know. And the ones who

283
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,160
did they would start out saying,
yeah, I guess it's okay. Eventually

284
00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:37,119
the word got out from aritime command
not to talk to me, you know,

285
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,839
but no one told me not to
try. So yeah, I think

286
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:48,759
I think it would be good if
we could lay out just exactly We'll start

287
00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:53,279
with, you know, Shelburne,
and since that happened in nineteen sixty and

288
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,960
just about the whole exercise and everything
that you know about it, let's lay

289
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,039
that out for the Okay that's unfamiliar
with it. Let me just take a

290
00:21:03,039 --> 00:21:07,119
minute or two to set up nineteen
sixty because in a way, that's almost

291
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,960
a character here. Yea. You
know, there's a lot of difference in

292
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,799
the world obviously between today's world and
the twenties here and the sixties. But

293
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:21,279
people, you know, who didn't
live through it or earned aficionados of history

294
00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:26,680
may not realize there is a huge
difference between sixty seven and sixty And I

295
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,839
think I addressed that early on in
the book. In nineteen sixty people still

296
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,440
had faith in their government. You
know, you wouldn't have found any of

297
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:40,279
the attitudes you see nowadays. I
would also remind you there had yet to

298
00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:45,920
be a manned space mission. The
Russians would be first with Juriga Garon and

299
00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:49,960
that was seven months in the future
from this incident, right, So you

300
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,319
know, it's a different world that
way. Eisenhower's still president, Kennedy's taking

301
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,880
over is some months away, right. In fact, he hasn't been elected.

302
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,480
He's running against what Nick said,
I believe it was. And yeah,

303
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:10,720
so nineteen sixty a very different time, a very different time, and

304
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,039
you know the world had forgotten about
Roswell. I don't think too many were

305
00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:18,960
aware of Betty Hill, you know
this kind of thing. Yes, people

306
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,559
were aware of UFOs, you know, it was the well into the dawn

307
00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,680
of the modern era. But anyway, a very very different time than you

308
00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:32,680
know, nineteen sixty seven, even
sixty. But here's what happens according to

309
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,720
the men. And remember they're without
dates, so if I fill them in,

310
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,160
it's because I discovered them later.
And well, obviously the date,

311
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,680
let's get specific. The incident actually
occurs on October the twelfth, nineteen sixty

312
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:53,640
in Shelburne Harbor and the Odor Harbor
behind beyond what's known as McNabb's Island.

313
00:22:55,079 --> 00:22:57,440
And the nature of the mission is
this, it's a NATO mission, a

314
00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:03,400
NATO mind sweeping exercise, and it's
the fifth of a series of them that

315
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,720
have been carried out annually. Back
in those days, Canada still had a

316
00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,640
large navy, which we certainly do
not now. We had a sixty ship

317
00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:15,359
navy for a country that had a
population at the time under twenty million.

318
00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,240
You know, that was a large
navy. It was actually, for a

319
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:26,079
brief period of the third largest in
the world. And we worked very closely

320
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,000
with the United States Navy on numerous
NATO exercises of all nature. Whether it

321
00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:36,119
was we still had aircraft carrier,
we still had you know, lots of

322
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,200
destroyer escorts and annual missions were common, you know, in different theaters around

323
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:47,279
the world, but mind sweeping was
a big theme still then, and this

324
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:56,240
mission involved eighteen warships. There were
eight Canadian and ten US mind sweeping vessels.

325
00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:02,839
Now to be specific in the American
compliment. In the US Navy you

326
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:10,079
had eight minesweepers, and you had
one lardship which was the USS Orleans Parish,

327
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,960
a countermeasures ship, and you also
had a loop player, which was

328
00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:21,279
which one did they have the yazoo
the Yazoo which ends up playing a part

329
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:26,319
in this. And then you in
the Canadian we had six minesweepers, and

330
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:33,160
since we were in Canadian waters,
this NATO mission was under Canadian command and

331
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,880
the command ship was Her Majesty's Canadianship
Cape Scott, which was like a four

332
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,759
hundred and fifty footship. It was
a supply ship, but it also worked

333
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,119
as a floating headquarters and was used
in NATO operations every year in Bermuda,

334
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,079
and that it also had other special
functions. It had an eight bed hospital,

335
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,119
it had a full decompression chamber on
it for divers. So she was

336
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,960
the command ship on this mission,
and what the mission was. What was

337
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,400
supposed to be carried out was that
on the outside of Shelburne Harbor that they

338
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,519
laid an eight mile course and the
US ships went there first and laid down

339
00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:18,359
an eight mile course of dummy mines, and then the sweepers were sent in

340
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,880
to clear these. And in this
eight mile dog league course, the mission

341
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,880
was basically to try and get all
the minds up that had been moored or

342
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,519
relaying on the bottom or hidden in
some way. And the two big ships,

343
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:33,960
the big Canadian and the big US
ship, which would have been the

344
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:37,759
Orleans Parish and Keep Scott, were
to pass through this eight mile dog legged

345
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:42,759
course. And if they did so, there are some of the typical mind

346
00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:48,039
sweepersles would have been US one,
sir, I believe, and actually in

347
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:55,839
the book I actually found a picture
from Shelburne Harbor mid mission where the Keep

348
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:02,119
Scot is at anchor with four of
our mind sweepers beside from Ober the fifteenth

349
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,480
of the mission. Anyway, here's
the thing that was their mission to pass

350
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:14,319
through. So when the mission begins, and well I suppose technically it began,

351
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,839
it actually was meant to span about
three weeks when you look at the

352
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,279
setup of the course, preparations in
Halifax Harbor, the arrival of other US

353
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:29,559
Navy ships. What happened is on
the twelfth, the ships assemble at the

354
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:33,640
start of the dog Lake Course and
the two big ships began to make their

355
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,599
way through. Now what's interesting here
is that what I found was that when

356
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,160
I look back at my interview notes
from the time, from the different interviews,

357
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,440
is the men claim that it was
when the ships got assembled and they

358
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,599
began trying to pass through the dog
Lake Course. Everything went good, as

359
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:53,000
they said, for about an hour, and then all hell broke loose and

360
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,000
they sent the divers down and that's
where they encounter two UFOs sitting on the

361
00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:03,440
seabed and you know, aliens moving
around in the water. Well, and

362
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,839
boy, I'll never forget it was
hard to get the details of you know,

363
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,799
at first they just want to say, well there was still activity in

364
00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:14,000
the water, you know, well
what kind of activity, And it was

365
00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:18,279
like every little bit at the point
and the interviews would start breaking down.

366
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,119
You know, at first they'd be
talking quite openly and these guys would look

367
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,119
at the floor and they say,
I'll have to move on. We can't

368
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,519
talk about that part, but they
were clear, oh yeah, and panic

369
00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:30,200
broke out on the boat and all
this, well, you know, pretty

370
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:36,160
wild story for nineteen sixty when you're
talking chips, and of course every time,

371
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:40,240
here's the clincher. Why did it
take me twenty nine years? Whenever

372
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:44,640
you'd ask what ships? Can you
name a ship? No, you know,

373
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,119
no, I can't do that.
Well what year was it? Well

374
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,359
it was background the Cuban Missus Gray, So it might have been sixty seven.

375
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,359
We don't know, you know.
So there was all this ambiguity in

376
00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,279
its first telling. So when I'm
telling you these details, these only you

377
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:03,880
know where, and I'm naming these
dates, this only becomes possible in twenty

378
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,839
twenty two, literally around New Year's
Day, that first week that I start

379
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:15,440
making the breakthroughs right, And the
thing is yes. So I go back

380
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,960
to my notes from the interviews,
which happened on Good Friday of nineteen ninety

381
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,960
three. Of god, I remember
that day. It was a holiday.

382
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:26,519
Why we did it in the evening
at the home. They didn't even want

383
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,119
to let me in at first.
This all this came so close to not

384
00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:33,599
happening, you know, at so
many points. You know that reading the

385
00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:41,200
books and details are there were so
many ways and anyway, there's the thing.

386
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,599
They're set up. They're entering this
course and according to those old interviews,

387
00:28:44,599 --> 00:28:47,160
when I look back at my interview
notes, it said about an hour

388
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:52,519
and all hell broke loose. We
encountered the aliens. So now back in

389
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,119
twenty twenty two, by that summer, I have the ship's log of the

390
00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:02,880
command ship. Okay, hmcspes got
So I'm going through the log book,

391
00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:07,079
and you know, since they're directing
eighteen ships in this natomission, there's a

392
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,920
lot of naval jargon, which I'm
pretty good with. You know. I've

393
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,640
done enough research, you know,
on paper, and have enough terminology and

394
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,599
enough background in it that you know. But I'm just being cautious and meticulous

395
00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:23,599
and going through all the little details. So I figure about an hour in

396
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:30,920
I should find something that looks like
panic. Okay, Well I get to

397
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,240
sixty minutes and there's nothing. I
stop, make a coffee and come back

398
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,519
to it and keep going down.
And you've got to remember, like I

399
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:40,839
said, when they're telling the story, it's from thirty three years of memory,

400
00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:44,440
and they don't want to name the
ship or the date I don't imagine

401
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,279
they knew the date anymore, because
I think that first answer when one of

402
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,799
the divers, the one uses the
pseudonym Harry, who, by the way,

403
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,359
is later named in this book,
if you can figure out which one

404
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,799
of the seven Shag Harbor divers he
is, because that has been published since

405
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:03,519
by others. So I felt,
you know, that's an interesting point,

406
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:06,119
you know, and if you really
do your own work, you can figure

407
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,400
out who told that detail. But
okay, here's the thing. I get

408
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:18,200
the ninety minutes in and suddenly there
they come to a complete stop and the

409
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:26,119
ship's obviously there's something gone really off
because they lower lifeboats, divers go down,

410
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,000
and then there's something there that when
I first read it, even though

411
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:36,880
I know the jarget and I knew
the abbreviations at the time and how things

412
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,559
are recorded, it didn't even register. Through all these there's a couple points

413
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,079
in missions like this typically where you
might see the defense level raise. Most

414
00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:51,799
people would have some rough awareness of
the defcon system at this point in nineteen

415
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,400
sixty, Canada have been part of
that for only one full year. You

416
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,240
know, with the US, right, we'd signed a special thing to say

417
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,519
we would match defense levels and defend
each other, particularly at sea with our

418
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,640
navies, you know, or come
upon call for missions, now, Deacon,

419
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:11,480
And the way you see portrayed in
movies is you know, the one

420
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:15,240
thing they often get right. Although
you know what I find so funny,

421
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,039
Martin, is so often they have
the numbers backwards, you know, right,

422
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,400
five is peace time, everything's cool
and calm as good as it gets.

423
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,799
Right is nuclear war. Okay,
they have to get them reverse in

424
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:32,039
the movies. I find that quite
funny. You know how much research they

425
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:37,839
do anyway, So yeah, yeah, But the thing is the defense level.

426
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,720
The defcon level is usually set by
you know, the Joint chiefs of

427
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:44,480
Staff, you know what I mean. It comes from the Pentagon, right,

428
00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:48,039
or the president directly, you know, as commander in chief. Right.

429
00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:52,319
However, what many people don't know
is commanders in the field can raise

430
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,680
it in their area specifically, right. But if you read up on that,

431
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,759
if you go to you know,
like even Wikipedia or something more scholarly

432
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:05,680
online, or you go to the
library, what you'll find is all claim

433
00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:09,000
that no commander in the field as
part of the defcon system has ever gone

434
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,559
to defcon one. In fact,
at the time. I know this is

435
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,880
starting to change now, probably since
the book leak can out, but I

436
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,720
could only find one rumor of it
in West Germany. And when the guy

437
00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:27,079
explains that it pretty much it looked
like it was fiction in the end,

438
00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:30,759
and he conceded that himself, although
remembered his dad telling him. However,

439
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,799
I get to this point in the
book, I remember, now we're talking.

440
00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,599
I've got the official ship's log in
my hand right, or a rendition

441
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,200
of it. And I get to
ninety minutes into the mission on October the

442
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,759
twelfth, which is about, you
know, just twelve thirty, just afternoon,

443
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:58,480
and I see assume Defcon one,
Defcon one, you know, that

444
00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:02,880
state that has never happened by stand
or in the field, and a special

445
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,200
stamp goes on the boat in the
page and the captain signs off on it,

446
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:09,559
and that right now, you look
up at the time, and particularly

447
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:15,400
because they've changed slightly over the year, both in US forces and here as

448
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,240
to what the levels mean. But
it was very clear what they meant in

449
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:24,039
nineteen sixty, extremely clear. It
was short and sweet. It meant that

450
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:31,119
nuclear war is imminent or has begun. Geez, that's how it's defined now

451
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:37,920
and that you can engage an enemy
without you know, seeking clearance first.

452
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:43,920
Right. Well, when I first
look at it, I'm like, no,

453
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,319
no, no, no, maybe
it's maybe I'm not seen. He

454
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,440
meant to write four and he didn't. But the penmanship was good, you

455
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,519
know what I mean. And you
know, all the right verbiage is there,

456
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:59,079
and even the bird matters. And
that's typically how it's how it's put

457
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:04,000
down in orders like that or when
they record the defense you know, readiness

458
00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:07,480
level at the time. If you
increase it, you assume it. If

459
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,480
you bring it down, it's called
reversion. You're reverted, right, And

460
00:34:12,559 --> 00:34:15,800
I just see and it's quite clear
now in those days they didn't actually rate

461
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,800
on defcon and you can see it
going up and down. I've looked at

462
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,199
many missions and always check the defcon
levels when they're doing things. And you

463
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,920
know, for most of what I've
looked at, and I've looked at thousands

464
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,880
of log books of Canadian and US
ships, you typically see five there might

465
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:37,559
be unless you go to the Cuban
Missile crisis and you'll certainly find three there.

466
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,119
Now, think about this, the
Cuban missile crisis. You know how

467
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:47,400
close that came the heating up Defcon
three except for Sacks Strategic Air Command,

468
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:54,039
which did go to two. Okay, yeah, Shelburne Harbor. Suddenly we

469
00:34:54,119 --> 00:35:01,880
go from five to one. Wo
lower lifeboats and there's all kinds of strange

470
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,559
orders going out and that well,
what was that? And this is where

471
00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:12,239
they predicted, you know, things
went wrong, you know, give or

472
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,880
take thirty minutes, right after thirty
three years of memory and fog. Right,

473
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,960
the men tell me all hell broke
loose, the ship went into a

474
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000
panic. Well, I didn't expect
to see that, and maybe the men

475
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:27,239
didn't know what was recorded by the
brass you know. One said, well,

476
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,840
you're gonna find def Con one or
you're gonna find you know. All

477
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,280
I know is suddenly when they get
to that part of the story, these

478
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,639
guys would seize up, couldn't make
eye contact, look at the floor,

479
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,519
tear up, wave their hands and
you'll have to move on. I can't

480
00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:42,800
talk about that part. What do
I find When do they get to that

481
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,239
moment in time? And I could
recognize it though they didn't give me the

482
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,760
day because they said we assembled at
the start, we start to go through

483
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,039
the dog. Well, they didn't
use dog like. But the you know,

484
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:55,119
the course that we were to clear, and we ran into these things.

485
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,960
But yeah, they didn't write up
dep on in those days. The

486
00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:05,199
needy used to put you know,
DC one, DC two, DC three.

487
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,840
You know, it's the level,
but it's quite clear. By three

488
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,679
hours later, they're back to five, you know, back to peacetime.

489
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,519
But at this point, the ship's
anchor in seven fathoms of water. That's

490
00:36:16,519 --> 00:36:21,119
only forty two feet, right,
and they don't move for four days.

491
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,880
Go back to the exercise, you
know, But I mean death go on

492
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:32,280
one. You know, I'm like, wow, I'm just wondering why that's

493
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,840
not like in the history books or
something, you know what I mean,

494
00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:42,440
Oh well why not? Yes,
yeah, yeah, I mean it had

495
00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:45,199
to be reported to somebody, Right, I'll tell you. The next thing

496
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:49,760
that happens is, like I say, it was under Canadian command because we're

497
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,800
in our remember in those days was
only a twelve mile international limit, right,

498
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:57,840
We're in Shelburne, Harvard. The
next thing that happens, you know,

499
00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:01,559
they fly the Admiral of the East
Coast Fleet to the ship and land

500
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:08,679
him on the Cape scot Okay.
And unfortunately, I you know, I've

501
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,719
actually been lucky enough over the years
to talk to her interview some of the

502
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,239
Canadian animals. Unfortunately, the admiral
in this case I never met, didn't

503
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,000
know at the time that he was
in command of this mission, who had

504
00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:27,480
been involved. And but I did
an amazing forensic analysis of his command style

505
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,360
and his history, you know,
which went back through World War two and

506
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:37,920
that, and it's quite amazing because
this fellow admiral, Rear Admiral ken Dyer

507
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:45,360
is his name. He was the
fellow in charge of the Atlantic Fleet during

508
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:52,400
the Cuban Missile crisis and it's a
controversial period in Canadian history. If your

509
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,320
e Canadian history books about it,
the stories here, if you live in

510
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,280
Halifax Startment still resound and all boys
that grew up a navy family, he's

511
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:06,639
heard it. Because here's the controversy
is that he went to Ottawa and actually

512
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,840
met with our Prime minister at the
time, which was conservative John Diefenbaker,

513
00:38:10,519 --> 00:38:15,840
and John Kennedy was actually in the
office with them. Kennedy blew up because

514
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:22,679
he wanted to have the our Atlantic
Fleet monitor and chase down Russian subs in

515
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,960
the North Atlantic so it would free
up more ships for the Cuban blockade,

516
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,000
and the Prime Minister refused. And
this was just one year after we'd signed

517
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:37,960
this agreement both on defcon in what's
called the can Us Agreement to support each

518
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,360
other no matter what, under each
other's command if need be, and you

519
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,719
know Kennedy, and it was an
awful situation eventually led to the Prime minister's

520
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:52,280
downfall here at the time. But
when the meeting was over, Dyer was

521
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,400
called in and the Defense Minister was
there in the Prime Minister and said,

522
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,360
we're not going to do this.
Those ships aren't to move, We're not

523
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,360
going to do what the Americans want. We're not getting dragged into this.

524
00:39:01,079 --> 00:39:07,599
Right he left that office and he
went right down and contacted Norfolk and said,

525
00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:10,719
what do you want me to do? And he took us orders directly

526
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,039
and very controversial character. There's been
much written about it in this country since

527
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,599
there's a chapter that deals with it
in the book. But also it was

528
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:27,719
a great insight when you look at
his interpretation when he talked about it years

529
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,119
later. Why he did what he
did. Now it's important because since I

530
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:37,880
didn't get to interview him before he
passed. Here's the thing it says a

531
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,880
great deal about how he might have
treated this mission, which, by the

532
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,119
way, he designed that mind sweeping
mission. He was the one who flew

533
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:49,400
out to it once this happened.
Right, we don't know what happened.

534
00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:52,039
When you read decklogs in the ship, it doesn't say why they do what

535
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:55,400
they do. It never does you
know what I mean. I mean,

536
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,679
I've read decklogs on incidents that we
know his story. You know where nineteen

537
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,440
lives were lost in peacetime because of
an explosion in the boiler room. It

538
00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:08,599
tells you all the details of what
happened when and what they did. Doesn't

539
00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:13,400
tell you why. It doesn't tell
you that you know this thing blew up

540
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,960
or you know it's just bare bones
outline rights what it has to be done.

541
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,480
Now, let me jump into one
more thing before you have any questions.

542
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:27,679
If you do, is that you
know when you think about it.

543
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,480
Of course, what I heard early
on is, you know, when I

544
00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:36,440
first started bouncing this off people to
get the ration or saying, well,

545
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,760
why couldn't it be a Russian sub
sitting in Chauburne Harbor, Well, there

546
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,119
are a lot of reasons. First
of all, remember they've dropped. They've

547
00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:49,960
all dropped anchor in forty two feet
of water. If you had a sub,

548
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:52,559
even sitting at the bottom, you
could have looked up over the side

549
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:57,280
and seeing the Conning tower below the
waves, particularly at low tide. Right.

550
00:40:57,559 --> 00:41:00,599
Yeah. The other thing when you
look at the commands er in the

551
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:04,679
history of this fellow in times of
warfare, and he was considered a real

552
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,320
hawk. Here, the admiral that
was in charge of this mission, There's

553
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,360
no way he would let a Russian
sub in the Cold War set on the

554
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,880
bottom of shelb And Harbor. They
would have had a very bad day,

555
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,800
indeed, you know. And of
course with US allies right there, you

556
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,119
know, between the personal embarrassment of
it and the fact, you know,

557
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:23,960
they had nothing better to do,
they would have had great sport with that

558
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,199
thing. The other thing is again
one more time to remind you of nineteen

559
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,519
sixty, I mean, the first
nuclear sub even in the US, the

560
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:37,280
Nautilus only became went to see in
what nineteen fifty five, this is five

561
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:43,000
years later. I'm not sure that
the Russians had any operational nuclear sub set.

562
00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:45,119
If there was a sub, it
would have been diesel electric. And

563
00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:50,199
if you ever see a detailed recounting
of the Huban missile crisis. That was

564
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,719
one of the big problems most of
those subs they sent down, those Zulu

565
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:58,599
class and other classes. They my
god, they couldn't operate in warm waters,

566
00:41:58,679 --> 00:42:00,920
right, they would come to the
surface. The men were dying in

567
00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:06,599
them just from the heat. You
know, yeah, never do that.

568
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,079
So yeah, Defcon one didn't.
I wasn't expecting that, but I was

569
00:42:10,119 --> 00:42:16,039
like, wow, yeah, yeah, that really, that really is I

570
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:22,920
remember um hearing about well, I
want to get into the detail and why

571
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:29,480
they were so sure that it was
alien. These were alien beings in the

572
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,440
the people that you interviewed, they
both said basically the same thing. Can

573
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:37,679
you just give a couple more details, you know, the people that were

574
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:44,920
diving and all that s witnesses.
Yeah, okay, Well the thing is,

575
00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:50,039
you know, obviously when this story
was first related to me, you

576
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:52,760
know, I pushed for details.
You know, you just can't simply say

577
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,639
and at first it was, you
know, so general. They said,

578
00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:00,280
well, when we went down there
was still activity. Well what do you

579
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,000
mean activity, Well there were beans
in the water. What kind of beans?

580
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,360
Alien beans? Well, okay,
how can you be sure? And

581
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,400
they go, oh, we were
sure, and go we we weren't there

582
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,719
long. The brass wasn't long in
getting us topside again, you know.

583
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,920
And you gotta remember when the when
the divers are telling me the story ninety

584
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,119
three, no one's talking about we
went to depth con one and we nearly

585
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:29,880
caused a you know, a nuclear
incident or something. They're just sympathy,

586
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:31,320
you geez. They yanked us out
of the water and we sat in those

587
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:37,079
ships over there for days. Right. I think what's interesting here is when

588
00:43:37,159 --> 00:43:39,719
they when they talk, oh well, here here's a good detail. So

589
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:46,639
um, one of the divers I
talked to and who I've met twice since

590
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:53,840
and is still alive. But we'll
tell no more. M He actually filmed

591
00:43:53,840 --> 00:44:00,639
this. That film was turned to
the Defense Research Establishment and dart with Nova

592
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:05,840
Scotia, which was part of the
old Defense Research Board back in the day.

593
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:12,679
And so outside of their stories there
should be this. They did collect

594
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,119
some debris. They believed that these
two USOS that were sitting on the seabed

595
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,000
in Shelburne Harbor, that one of
them had been damaged and the other was

596
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:25,119
trying to lend some kind of assistance
to it. And this was the nature

597
00:44:25,159 --> 00:44:29,840
of the activity. But I mean
they didn't observe it for a great period

598
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,920
of time. Some drop cameras were
lowered afterwards, but initially one of the

599
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,800
men his specialty was underwater photographer.
And by the way, as Martin knows,

600
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,719
because he's you know, he's seen
the book, of course, but

601
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,079
he knows my techniques too. When
somebody told me this, of course I

602
00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:49,800
went into their background. You know, there's a great thing in Halifax at

603
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:54,599
the library, a collection of what's
called Mike City Directory. It was something

604
00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:58,880
that used to be across North America
in the old days, and it actually

605
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,440
would give you a lot of personal
information about a person and have their phone

606
00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:06,760
number in their street. But it
would also tell you the nature of their

607
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,719
work, who they worked for.
And when you look it up and said,

608
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,719
you know, underwater naval photographer.
You know, so you know,

609
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,239
these guys checked out in terms.
You know, I didn't just take the

610
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,639
story. I mean, first of
all, why would they had the story.

611
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:22,119
I was directed to them by somebody. They weren't warned. You know,

612
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,880
here's another interesting detail too about the
story. Despite all this, and

613
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,880
that was exciting. I remember them
telling me and over the next few days

614
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,880
when I'd go back to try you
to follow up. Eventually, you know,

615
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,199
they were burnt. They weren't going
to say anymore. I wasn't welcome,

616
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:43,000
okay, and I could see that
was coming. You know, it

617
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:45,519
was a time for me to kind
of set it aside. And of course

618
00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:49,480
I kept hearing, you know,
all the criticisms from those that were helping

619
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:52,519
me at the time, and you
know, the former heads that move on

620
00:45:52,880 --> 00:46:00,079
etc. Here in Canada, people
that just loaned their expertise on military matters

621
00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:04,360
or whatever, and they found it
hard. And I kept saying, well,

622
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,599
listen, if this is real,
and I felt it was. You

623
00:46:07,639 --> 00:46:10,679
know, I believe the veracity of
the men, but I'm sorry. You

624
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,920
don't move that many ships. Remember, at the time, I don't know

625
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,639
what the missions called. And by
the way, that that is the title

626
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:22,920
of the book. That's the name
of the mission Sweet Clear five. Okay,

627
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:25,519
this NATO exerci, I thought's part
of history. You can find that

628
00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:30,800
online, certainly. But the thing
is, you know, it took me

629
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,840
twenty nine years to come up with
that. They wouldn't tell me the names

630
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,519
of ships. They didn't even tell
me what kinds of ships like when all

631
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:40,960
they did in terms of minds was
saying I'd say, well, why were

632
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,119
you diving in the first place,
and they would say, oh, they

633
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:49,119
had a sprigging around with some kind
of new British influenced mind. An influenced

634
00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:52,119
mind is one you don't actually have
to make contact to detonate it right,

635
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,440
that you know, you can set
it so that you know, if a

636
00:46:55,480 --> 00:47:00,480
medal ship is within a certain proximity, up, it goes right. But

637
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:05,599
they didn't stress it was a mind
sweeping mission, and that's part of what

638
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:08,039
threw me up, because I figured, okay, you know, a mission

639
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:13,320
like this down and shell Burn,
with so many American chips, had to

640
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,199
involve a destroyer rest court at least, so I kept looking for a destroyer

641
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,119
rest court log books with nothing more
to go on, and that from the

642
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:23,679
right the assumed time frame. I
remember, we didn't know it was nineteen

643
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,360
sixty then okay, But before I
forget all that, before we jump into

644
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,119
how I eventually work all that out, let me tell you the thing that

645
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:37,760
impressed me most about the witnesses is
not the divers themselves. You know,

646
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,719
everybody kept thinking, well you should
be and it would be wrong to say.

647
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,960
I wasn't, but I thought I
need something else. But before I

648
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,840
got the real something else, I
ran into a friend of mine who had

649
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,800
worked with at a former newspaper,
a daily tabloid here in Metro, which

650
00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:59,199
was called simply the Daily News Here
that ran for years. We were both

651
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,599
contract years at the time, and
I just look after a bunch of vending

652
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:07,519
machines and every night I would see
him and I knew this fellow. He

653
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:12,800
goes under the pseudonym Jim in the
book. He had a lengthy career with

654
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:17,960
the Royal Canadian Air Force and his
specialty I didn't know it at the time

655
00:48:19,039 --> 00:48:22,239
was identification of wreckage, you know, that was you know, he did

656
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,440
other missions and that, but that
was what he was trained in specifically.

657
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:31,000
Well, after I left the position
and the contract was over, I ran

658
00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:34,719
into him once a couple of years
later. And by the way, again

659
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,599
it's nineteen ninety three, the same
year I first heard the story from the

660
00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:42,280
Divers. In April, this would
have been August of that year. I

661
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,800
was coming over the West End Mall
and Halifax and I ran into gym and

662
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,159
Jim says, Oh my god,
the things you see when you don't have

663
00:48:49,199 --> 00:48:51,039
a gun, And I said,
well, kind of Canadian are you with

664
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:52,239
a gun? I said, you're
supposed to use a knife, you know.

665
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,239
We laughed. You know what are
you doing these days? I said,

666
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,960
you wouldn't believe me, and he
said try me. And I had

667
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,320
a little satchel those days that had
some Shag Harbor documents and I hauled them

668
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,199
out and he just looked at them
for a second. Saw the headline story

669
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,639
in the newspaper could be something concrete
and shag herber Ufo orcaf and he goes,

670
00:49:12,679 --> 00:49:15,519
oh my god, how did you
hear about that? Remember that?

671
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,760
And I realized that the minute he
starts talking, he's not thinking that what

672
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,039
I showed him as about shag Harbor, but about Shelburn, and he seems

673
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:27,559
to know about it. And when
he starts talking, the first thing I

674
00:49:27,599 --> 00:49:29,320
do was interrupt him and I go, Jim, I said, what are

675
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:30,719
you talking about? He said,
you weren't in the Navy, you were

676
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,360
air Force. He said, I
thought I was beau Is. Every time

677
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,559
the Navy would scrape something up off
the bottom, or you know, anything

678
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:43,199
that ever looks like it flew,
or you know, a plane would crash

679
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,639
or they found some weird debris,
says an next. You know, I

680
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,000
was on some navy ship, he
says, Guard Chriss. I couldn't have

681
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,960
been a sail or. I hated
it, sleeping in a hammock, somebody

682
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:53,159
socks hanging in your face, he
said, I you know, and every

683
00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:55,519
time the water churned up a bit. He says, I was sick and

684
00:49:55,639 --> 00:49:59,440
over the side, you know,
and all this. So I said,

685
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,360
yeah. I said, well,
what do you know about Shelbourne? And

686
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,639
he was saying, oh man,
he says, I don't know. I

687
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:09,599
said, what did you see?
Always says, don't get too excited.

688
00:50:09,639 --> 00:50:12,960
He says, I didn't see anything. You know what I did all week?

689
00:50:13,639 --> 00:50:16,679
He said, I read Westerns and
drank beer down in the down in

690
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,800
the galley, I mean Canadian Navy. There was alcohol, okay, he

691
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,639
said, I just sat there reading
Westerns. He said, it's the only

692
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:27,519
crazy mission I was on. They
never showed me a thing, they'd never

693
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:30,559
explained a thing. I was just
there. But he said, I heard

694
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:34,199
the talk. He said, the
divers. They'd be down there every night

695
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,440
in their corner in the huddle.
He said they were talking some pretty crazy

696
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,079
stuff. And I said, like
what he said, Well, they said

697
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,960
they were sitting over aliens. There
was two Flyings officers underneath the ship,

698
00:50:46,039 --> 00:50:49,960
and that they'd seen them and they'd
filmed them and all this, and it

699
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,639
was pretty crazy and they'd get worked
up, and every now and then somebody

700
00:50:52,679 --> 00:50:54,800
would tell them. And he said, but boy, the last day of

701
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,920
the mission, before we started to
sail him back, he said, all

702
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,440
hell broke. Lucy said, the
Americans came aboard and some officers come down

703
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,400
in the whites. Now, he
said the men were pretty good down there.

704
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,679
When US sailors come short aboard and
listened men, they made them feel

705
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,800
quite welcome, and you know,
love to try to get him to drink

706
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,320
and all this. But he said
the officers were never appreciated when they went

707
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,639
down below to the gallery. So
this guy comes in. He's wandering around

708
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,400
and the divers are talking about the
aliens again in the corner in the huddle,

709
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:30,719
and the US officer goes over them
and says hie to them, and

710
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,800
leans in and suggested them that they
shouldn't be talking shop, and they certainly

711
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,960
shouldn't be talking about that. Soviets
ub they're setting no over. And at

712
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,960
that point one of the divers.
Harry, as he's called in the book,

713
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,400
just jumps up in the table clips
or when he grabs the officer and

714
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:50,280
his friends all try to grab him
to stop because I mean big no,

715
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,760
no, of course, right.
But I love the way that Jim remembered

716
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,000
it. It's a better version than
here. He told it to me because

717
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,519
he found it water down. He
says. Oh, he grabbed the guy.

718
00:51:59,519 --> 00:52:00,400
He said. It's a bad scene. He says. I figured,

719
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,079
oh god, he's gone. They'll
send him ashore. He's going to the

720
00:52:04,119 --> 00:52:08,280
break for sure. And he said, that's the trouble with you Yankee boys.

721
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:13,000
He said. This is what he
said. You see the red menace

722
00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:15,400
everywhere. He said, Well,
there might be some menace below us,

723
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,719
he said. But he said it
ain't from the Black Sea or Moscow,

724
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,599
he says, maybe Mars. I
think a lot farther route, he says.

725
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:27,719
But I know one thing, he
said it if it wanted to do

726
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,559
something, there's nothing we could do
about it, he said. And it's

727
00:52:30,599 --> 00:52:31,960
not bother or not. So I
hope you don't have any planes to go

728
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:37,480
all John Wayne on it or something. And eventually, you know, once

729
00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:39,920
they break this hold of the opicer
or the officer runs upstairs in the captain

730
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,679
comes down below, and he's just
sent away, you know. But he

731
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,760
remembered this, and I'm like,
you know, it went with what I've

732
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,639
been told. I didn't tell him
I'd already seen the divers. Well he

733
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,239
just just just comes out of him. And but the same thing. Of

734
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,360
course. I said, well,
do you have any idea what ship you're

735
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,920
on or whatever? And all of
a sudden it's like he's in a train

736
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:01,599
and he snaps out of it.
He had a grandson with him and he

737
00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:07,639
was taking him to well, get
this summer scanned a hockey practice. He

738
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,440
grabs the big kit bag. He
goes, um, I gotta go.

739
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:14,159
Good luck with that. He said, you do your own dirty works on

740
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,199
He said no, and I said, well no, no, just a

741
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,280
minute, come here. He said, yeah, let's do this again in

742
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,920
twenty years good bye. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, I knew this guy.

743
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:29,000
Well, you know, so so
let me ask as far as I'm

744
00:53:29,039 --> 00:53:35,159
trying to envision what they claimed that
they saw. There was the damaged a

745
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,400
vessel whatever it was, sort of
flying sauce or whatever you want to call

746
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:43,719
it. Yeah, and then were
these like beings that were like floating on

747
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:49,119
the outside of it, work on
it is grays, typical grays by just

748
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,960
they didn't use that term, but
by description it was what someone would think

749
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:58,360
of as a typical gray, right, And were they were they using any

750
00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:02,519
oxygen type breathing where they just I
never got down the details. They wouldn't

751
00:54:02,559 --> 00:54:06,760
get those details. You know.
What I'm hoping for is the film.

752
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,599
Yeah, I know, I mean
if it exists, and yeah, I

753
00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:16,639
mean I'm sure it exists, if
it hasn't disintegrated, it hasn't been preserved

754
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:22,039
that it exists somewhere, and you
know, I mean there's so many films

755
00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:27,639
that most likely exist somewhere that would
be really something to see. And there's

756
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,840
explanation of the book as you know
about the strange history. I mean,

757
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:37,039
our Defense Research Board, particularly the
naval section, started back in World War

758
00:54:37,119 --> 00:54:42,159
Two and was very independent and even
though it got rolled into Ottawa's command,

759
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,280
it operated autonomously, you know,
with no oversight, not even any legislation,

760
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,039
not even today. And it even
explains that now if you went to

761
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:55,920
again a source like Wikipedia and you
look up what's now called Oh god,

762
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,320
these things get branded over the years, so many Times Martin. But Defense

763
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:06,239
Research and Development Canada currently is called
and if you read about the Atlantic Division,

764
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:09,400
it lists one thing there that's very
different from all the other. There's

765
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:15,960
still eleven facilities across Canada, like
you know, the Experimental Air Station in

766
00:55:15,119 --> 00:55:21,559
Suffield, Quebec, Suffield, Alberta, I'm sorry, or about Kurt Quebec

767
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:24,360
and all the locations and that.
But when you read about the Atlantic Facility,

768
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:30,039
one of their mission things in the
list of their mission statement is I

769
00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:38,000
love this knowledge management, and which
they take very seriously. I think there

770
00:55:38,119 --> 00:55:43,239
yeah, yeah, and the stories
abound, but I mean, and there's

771
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,679
great personal stories too in the book
about how you know, when I talk

772
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:52,400
about I mean the Canadian Navy employing
a paras psychologist in the sixties, right,

773
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,800
I mean, and it's quite legit. And then the involvement of and

774
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,159
there are some American names the surface, like Vanivar Bush, you know.

775
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:05,920
And the reason being is in World
War two, all research and development,

776
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:10,039
all military development went through him,
you know, through the war. But

777
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,239
as soon as the war was over, that ended under Truman, right,

778
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:17,840
and it was taken from him and
largely given to industry directly after that.

779
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,119
It's all explained in the book,
you know, and this is based on

780
00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:30,639
some PhD dissertations and that we're done
specifically on this. You know, it's

781
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:35,400
all quite well sourced, right,
But I mean the explanation the paras psychologists,

782
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,400
that one's a little different. But
yeah, I mean when you look

783
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:42,800
at it the Navy, the way
they handled UFO case to see, they

784
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,679
weren't responsible to the public, but
the Air Force would ask them were they

785
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,960
run into them on their own?
And I explained in the book to eat

786
00:56:50,039 --> 00:56:52,639
things like you know, when the
Air Force handles the case, it'll have

787
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,280
a code number like sixty seven dash, eight hundred dash whatever, and all

788
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,119
the military jargon and protocol. A
Navy UFO port on the bottom we just

789
00:57:00,159 --> 00:57:04,599
have, like I said, I
think I described as a smudgy bowling pencil.

790
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,960
They print off the tealics and just
write case one twenty case one twenty

791
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:13,079
one. You know, it was
a pretty loose filing system and nobody knows

792
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:17,480
where that one ended up, right, But it's you know, it's like

793
00:57:17,639 --> 00:57:22,000
I love this. You know,
here's another thing. When you interview these

794
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:23,840
guys, they'd say, well,
they sent us to the bottom with our

795
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:30,000
UFO detectors, and I'd be like
UFO detector. Yeah, a sixteen foot

796
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:34,360
dirty iron rod with a you know, rusty rod with a sweaty man on

797
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,280
one end, poking through the us
you know. So they had a sense

798
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,800
of umor about it. But yeah, you know, it's kind of like

799
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,239
that scene in some of the Alien
sequels where the guys are saying, I've

800
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:50,800
got another bug hunt. You know
this kind of thing, right, Yeah,

801
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,400
yeah, I want to get to
a couple of questions that have come

802
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:59,119
in this great This is just you
know, a speculative question. What's most

803
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:04,559
like a connection with the bodies of
water in UFO or as called USO submergible.

804
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:09,639
Yeah, but that is well I'll
give my opinion first, and whatever

805
00:58:10,519 --> 00:58:15,280
yours is is also welcome. But
you think of it this way. You

806
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:22,079
know, the earth is seventy three
percent I think water. So maybe it's

807
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:28,119
a place for them to if they're
here and researching whatever, temporarily whatever,

808
00:58:28,159 --> 00:58:31,360
a place for them to go undetected. I don't know what are your thoughts

809
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,280
on that. Yeah, it's easy
to hide. The other thing is that,

810
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:40,639
you know there's a number of things. That's one of them, for

811
00:58:40,719 --> 00:58:45,840
sure. Martin Another one would be
the fact that you had you know,

812
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:52,639
you had a grid. The the
social system came ashore at Shelburne. In

813
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:58,239
fact, there were sixty four stations, some in our stations that listen for

814
00:58:58,519 --> 00:59:04,519
and track nuclear US in multi Atlantic
and the Pacific, and they came ashore

815
00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:07,599
at various points. But the coordination
center for this was the Shelburne Base.

816
00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:13,079
When the base vers opened, it
was actually a US base on Canadian soil

817
00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:19,639
and in nineteen fifty five and by
nineteen sixty two came under an arrangement like

818
00:59:19,719 --> 00:59:22,960
Nora d you know where it was
shared fifty fifty with Canadian staff. But

819
00:59:23,599 --> 00:59:28,880
the coordination center hard linked with our
gentien Ufenland and Key West Florida, was

820
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:34,320
shelburn So that was the focal point
of the SOCI system and another another system

821
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:38,920
called the MADRID for which stood for
an acronym for a magnetic anomally detection right

822
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:44,239
that was only used near the coast. It was a backup to confirm SOCUS

823
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:50,239
data right, but the system was
often fooled. One of the cool things

824
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:53,039
I uncovered is like we have a
sense of how good that data was,

825
00:59:53,079 --> 00:59:57,639
and that that Shelburne Base could do
in fact, you know, joining the

826
00:59:57,679 --> 01:00:01,320
Mercury space program. You know,
when the first seven US astronauts went up,

827
01:00:01,639 --> 01:00:06,920
when they would land, when the
Mercury capsule would hit the water surface

828
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,639
upon re entry, it would set
off a special charge that Shelburne would listen

829
01:00:09,719 --> 01:00:15,320
for, and it was done to
measure its effectiveness and also to be a

830
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,360
backup in case, you know,
it came down farther north to see and

831
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,599
they'd lost tracking, right, but
they were able by a time differential system

832
01:00:22,639 --> 01:00:27,960
the pinpoint the location, and of
course it matched the visual and radar data

833
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,320
of the time, right, so
it had that kind of sensitivity. You

834
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:36,360
know, what were those kind of
distances, right, But sixty four stations

835
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,360
where it came ashore all connected to
Shelburne. So there's another reason. The

836
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,719
other thing, one of the things
I revealed in the book, and it's

837
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,800
still not officially admitted to, but
it is at the other nearby SOSAS station

838
01:00:47,199 --> 01:00:52,559
that used to be in our Gentian
upland is the US used that to store

839
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:57,840
nuclear weapons. They are to stockpile
what they called LULUs. Now LULUs were

840
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:05,880
nuclear nuclear depth charges bot an eleven
kill a ton yield and they have not

841
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,519
officially admitted there at Shelburne, but
they were at the other bases and Argentia.

842
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:13,920
But I've been told by weapons techs
weapons tech that worked at the base

843
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,639
that yes, they were stored at
shelburn too, So again you have that

844
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:22,719
or it's often been suggested that nuclear
technology will attract UFOs, right, the

845
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:27,719
special technology. I think of the
social system listening to the whole ocean.

846
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,440
You know the fact that water makes
it easy to hide. Combine. Another

847
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,719
reason potentially is there's a long history
of UFO. Well look at shake.

848
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:45,280
However, some years later of these
very solid cases happening in that area of

849
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:49,440
Nova Scotia. Right. Perhaps it's
geography, if you look at the map.

850
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,719
I often refer to us as a
term. I like, you know,

851
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:58,360
meteorologists call us the tailpipe in North
America. We kind of dangle out

852
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,840
there into the Atlantic and often the
prevailing westerlies and the jet stream will be

853
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:07,280
right over us, which is why
our weather changes so often. You know,

854
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:14,840
yeah, yeah, this said another
question here. How many divers corroborated

855
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:21,960
ET Contact three directly that were part
of the mission, the Air Force consultant,

856
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,239
but there were other divers and the
other divers were not on site,

857
01:02:25,239 --> 01:02:29,719
but have been told the story.
We're trained in debrief by these men.

858
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:35,320
Particularly, the greatest insights actually came
from a group of women, the first

859
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:40,679
female divers in the Canadian Navy in
the eighties for the first time. They

860
01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:49,400
were trained as divers aboard HMCS Cormorant, a diving platform, and they worked

861
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,159
very closely. They knew these men, some of them just knew them through

862
01:02:52,159 --> 01:02:57,159
the Army Navy Club. But ironically, the men that were on the Shelbourne

863
01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:00,000
mission, in fact, one of
them, as I explained in the book,

864
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:04,719
never even talked to the other guys
about it that he told with at

865
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,800
Shag Harbor. They were told quiet
they were. It was impressed upon them

866
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:14,719
in a big way, and you
know, not to speak. And whenever

867
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,159
they did try to speak with Karmrad's
the guys they trusted where they might have

868
01:03:17,199 --> 01:03:20,599
figured, oh, what damage is
going to do and you know, this

869
01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:23,320
is my buddy and I accustom with
my life when we're down there. When

870
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:28,159
they were talked, they eventually wouldn't
do that because these guys, you know,

871
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:30,199
they'd start telling the story and somebody
in the back of the room and

872
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:35,320
start making the sound of a theoremin
or something right, and they just didn't

873
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,679
get the respect. So all these
things kind of conspired so that they didn't

874
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:44,519
talk amongst you know, their buddies
so much. But strangely enough, when

875
01:03:44,519 --> 01:03:46,679
the women were letting and these guys
were helping with their training and getting to

876
01:03:46,719 --> 01:03:51,840
know them just as friends, and
that what they found was a very different

877
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,960
attitude. This was, of course, you know, the generation lost in

878
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,719
space, you know, to them, they could accept what these men were

879
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,519
telling them right while still respecting.
You know, they were training themselves and

880
01:04:02,639 --> 01:04:06,880
knew the difficulty of their missions right, of their work, of the life

881
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:11,039
and death nature of it, and
how quickly things go wrong when below.

882
01:04:11,679 --> 01:04:15,159
But you know, interestingly enough,
since these people were open to the fact

883
01:04:15,199 --> 01:04:18,480
that you know, we're probably not
alone in the universe, and probably not

884
01:04:18,559 --> 01:04:26,000
even so upon our little blue planet, they found an audience that they felt

885
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,800
comfortable talking to. And these women, you know, told the story and

886
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:35,800
often added details I didn't get from
the men who were actually there. That's

887
01:04:36,199 --> 01:04:41,440
well, here's another question related,
Are any are any of the divers still

888
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:46,519
with us? One one is one
he will say no more. I've met

889
01:04:46,559 --> 01:04:56,039
him on two occasions since actually worked
with them once. But no, yeah,

890
01:04:56,079 --> 01:05:00,599
he's not going to go anymore.
He never denied. He conf the

891
01:05:00,679 --> 01:05:03,559
other divers testimony. He admitted to
shooting the film. He was the guy

892
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:09,880
who actually shot the film and turned
it end. Yes, yeah, there

893
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:15,480
is one still alive. If not, Like I say, I usually wait

894
01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:19,880
for someone else to. You know, when I agree to grant a suit,

895
01:05:20,079 --> 01:05:25,320
you know, to the use of
a pseudonym, it's something I rarely

896
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,440
do. I discourage. I believe, before we're ever going to drag all

897
01:05:28,519 --> 01:05:30,760
this thing into the life of day, we have to put our name to

898
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,559
it. Yeah, And that came, you know, way back at a

899
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:39,079
time when I just literally I confess
I didn't really know what I was doing.

900
01:05:39,239 --> 01:05:43,440
I've only because that was already granted
on Shag Harbor. And if you

901
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:47,440
read the book, you'll find that
some of those names are Every one of

902
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:51,079
the seven divers on the Shaku Harber
mission is now named first and last name

903
01:05:51,119 --> 01:05:59,280
in the book. Yeah. So
in that other books out there or documentaries

904
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,960
out there that have the two conflated
as one, well, most things do,

905
01:06:04,239 --> 01:06:11,719
yes, I mean listen, to
be quite frank, there were days

906
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,079
I got up and I thought yeah, well it could be. I mean,

907
01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:17,400
because for so many I couldn't say
it could or it couldn't. Sometimes

908
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,960
you get a little tired of fighting
it and everybody around you. When I

909
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,440
did the shows, I would often
argue with the producer or the editors and

910
01:06:25,519 --> 01:06:28,760
say, well, you know,
I don't know that. Well can you

911
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:30,440
say it isn't? They go,
it's so much stronger if we put this

912
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:33,280
in. I go, yeah,
well, I don't know that that's true,

913
01:06:33,639 --> 01:06:38,039
and I wanted to at least make
sure it's ambiguous. But then you

914
01:06:38,079 --> 01:06:42,880
know, they can work their man
their magic, and the editor you know

915
01:06:43,159 --> 01:06:47,039
so. But I mean, you
know, somebody said, well, Chris,

916
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:51,039
is are these separate instance or not? I could have presented detailed argument,

917
01:06:51,039 --> 01:06:55,639
and you see them in the book
because I'm eventually moving past them.

918
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:59,000
There are arguments I could have made
that made me believe, yes, that

919
01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:01,480
they were one and the same incident, and there were plenty of arguments as

920
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:08,519
to why they weren't. And eventually, ironically, it was only years later

921
01:07:08,559 --> 01:07:12,039
when I finally gave up. And
by the way, there there was a

922
01:07:12,039 --> 01:07:15,000
lot of followed in this. I
mean, let me lay one on.

923
01:07:15,119 --> 01:07:18,320
You haven't mentioned to date when I
said, when I finally discovered the identity

924
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:26,239
of the ships, and I mentioned
the command ship I and HM CSK Her

925
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:32,519
Majesty's Canadianship Gape S Good the command
ship there my father was on the mission,

926
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:38,400
was still in the navy. How
about that he took it to the

927
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,639
grave. And I know he would
have known him because at the time he

928
01:07:41,679 --> 01:07:44,840
was one of the medics on the
ship. And you know, divers worked

929
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:49,360
very closely with medics and they were
mishaps, right, and that those details

930
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:55,639
are gone to in the book in
quite detail, including the thing that Fani

931
01:07:55,719 --> 01:08:00,320
broke. This was a kookie dream
I had after I'd stopped researching, and

932
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,320
I just went to Wikipedia just to
look up what the nature of Dad's boat

933
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,199
was. And you know, it
wasn't to confirm the story or anything.

934
01:08:09,239 --> 01:08:12,440
And I read it, and you
know Wiki's change over the years, and

935
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,639
the last time he looked at the
definition of the ship of what its mission

936
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:18,560
was in its service history, this
statement wasn't it. There was one little

937
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:25,199
sentence, one sentence, and all
it said was that in nineteen sixty Cape

938
01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:30,119
Scott took part in a natal mind
sweep being exercised called sweep Cleari five.

939
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,800
And the reason that was so significant
is because me, my co author of

940
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:39,800
Impact to Contact that which is I
think the definitive book on the Shag Harbor

941
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:45,720
incident. You know when we wrote
that, I mean we Graham and I

942
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:51,039
went through just hundreds and hundreds of
well no thousands of pages of like you

943
01:08:51,079 --> 01:08:57,159
know log books, Canadian logs,
going back like we'd have a name why

944
01:08:57,199 --> 01:09:00,319
we thought it would be this ship, and we'd just go back over the

945
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:05,399
years and kept pushing the dates back. And the thing is what I was

946
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:09,600
surprised was and all that time,
we never once put a Navy ship in

947
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:15,000
Shelburne Harbor well on for a day
a good will mission in centennial year sixty

948
01:09:15,039 --> 01:09:18,600
seven, hm CS Fraser stopped there
for one day. It was going down

949
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:23,359
to Washington to show off something that
we had developed that the Americans want to

950
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:28,079
call the bear trap, which was
a way to land you know, a

951
01:09:28,159 --> 01:09:31,000
helicopter on the deck of a small
destroyer escort. Right, we had developed

952
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:36,159
that technology. You know, the
helicopter lowers a steel cable a winch,

953
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:41,600
and you know they lash it to
the deck and put the helicopter on full

954
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,159
powers. The ship's pitching and rising
up and down the waves and you just

955
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:47,439
winch it in, you know,
down to the deck, right, And

956
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,479
it was a new thing in the
day, and they just stopped as a

957
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:55,640
good will mission because it was Canada's
centennial year. But out of like all

958
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:59,960
these pages, like I went through
every destroyer escort on the East coast,

959
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:02,520
like thirty some ships, you know, going back over the years. Could

960
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,840
never put a ship even in Chelburn
Harbor. So when I saw a Dad's

961
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,960
boat, you know, in Chalburn
Harbor on a NATO mission, I'm like,

962
01:10:11,239 --> 01:10:14,920
no, no, no, that
can't be that. And I thought,

963
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,359
sixty that's too early, because you
know, we were going back to

964
01:10:17,399 --> 01:10:20,880
the Cuban missile crisis and I'd go
another year. I missed it by a

965
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:27,000
year, right, So, you
know, those were the things. And

966
01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:30,399
then so but this article, that's
all, it's said one sentence. It

967
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,840
didn't name you know what, other
ships whatever. So I you know,

968
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:38,199
I can remember jumping to my feet
and thinking, oh my god, that's

969
01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:40,960
got to be it because I just
looked at so much. I never could

970
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,279
put a boat there. So and
then it said you know that there were

971
01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:46,439
eighteen ships involved, you know,
ten American I'm like, it's got to

972
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,199
be it, but it didn't name
the other ships. So I went down

973
01:10:50,199 --> 01:10:55,880
to a local secondhand bookstore and started
looking through old copies of the Crows and

974
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,840
Us, which was an old Canadian
Navy, you know, text magazine,

975
01:11:00,359 --> 01:11:01,399
and I thought, well, if
we were part of this, there'd probably

976
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:06,119
be some bragging rights in it.
And I eventually found the December nineteen sixty

977
01:11:06,199 --> 01:11:10,159
copy, and when I went through
it, it named all the ships.

978
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:15,359
But get this, I probably missed
it before because I'd been checking these magazines

979
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,800
and when I would see one in
the store, you know, a secondhand

980
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,319
bookstore, i'd pick it up in
a flip through it. The first thing

981
01:11:20,319 --> 01:11:24,319
I would do was go to the
table of contents. Well, when I

982
01:11:24,359 --> 01:11:28,520
went to the table of contents of
this December issue, it didn't listen anything

983
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:32,319
about Sweet Clear five or the mission. So I decided to just read the

984
01:11:32,359 --> 01:11:38,000
whole book at this point, and
in an unrelated article in the third call

985
01:11:38,039 --> 01:11:41,560
I'm going down the page, it
suddenly shifts into talking about this but no

986
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:46,399
title or subtitle or anything, and
named all the ships. I don't understand

987
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:49,560
why to this day things like that, but it was like they were trying

988
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:53,800
to keep it low. And then
the next big breakthrough was the fact that

989
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,479
I read the Canadian version, which
was, if I had to paraphise it

990
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:00,680
in the sentences, hey, it
was a good time was had by all

991
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,760
working with our American friends. Right. And then I went out now that

992
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,840
I had the ship's teams and looked
at the American version of the mission,

993
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:13,399
which was, oh my god,
what a mess, you know. And

994
01:12:14,079 --> 01:12:16,520
the fact that first thing I saw
when I looked at the American version was

995
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:21,960
that keep Scott got in trouble and
was going to run around, and Shelburne

996
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:28,319
Harber lost her engines and had to
be rescued by ussyah Zoo, you know.

997
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,079
And everything I found there was this
huge discrepancy and one thing led to

998
01:12:32,119 --> 01:12:35,399
another, and it was clear I
had to get the ship's log and then

999
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:41,079
I found some of them had been
shredded, but luckily in the end persistence

1000
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:44,960
and well, it's all in the
book. I know that sounds like a

1001
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:46,640
shameless plug, but it is.
There's more than we can talk about in

1002
01:12:46,680 --> 01:12:50,119
two hours. Yeah, right,
yeah, And by the way, the

1003
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:56,039
show was we're just about ready to
wrap up. I've failed to mention to

1004
01:12:56,039 --> 01:13:00,199
you that I don't don't always run
a two hour show. I clock my

1005
01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:04,720
two hour time slot basically. But
now but we're alive on YouTube. Or

1006
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:09,880
here's another question here, Why was
the Canadian Prime minister not more cooperative with

1007
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,720
the president Kennedy at the time.
Do you know, well, I can

1008
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:17,840
tell you this. He was very
close with Eisenhower. They used to go

1009
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:23,000
on fishing trips together. They're quite
famous for that. They were very close.

1010
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:30,520
There's a in fact, it was
Eisenhower that convinced the Prime minister his

1011
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,760
name was John Diefenbaker, to get
rid of the era we're developing the double

1012
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:40,640
supersonic fighter at the time that we
didn't need that that fighter jets weren't the

1013
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:44,560
future. And they sold us a
bunch of those Baumark missiles at the time

1014
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:50,079
here for North American defense. And
I don't know. I eisenhowerd I don't

1015
01:13:50,079 --> 01:13:56,000
know. Was he Republican or Democrat? Jeez, you know, I don't

1016
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:59,680
even know it. Well anyway,
Kennedy was Democrat. But they never got

1017
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:02,680
along at all. And in fact, at the end of that meeting it

1018
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:09,279
probably inadvertently or maybe not, Kennedy
left behind a little note that he'd been

1019
01:14:09,279 --> 01:14:15,079
writing down while arguing in between calls
and that with Deefenbaker, and it said

1020
01:14:15,079 --> 01:14:18,439
in the note quite what he thought
of deefend Baker, and deefen Baker found

1021
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:23,039
the note, you know, So
there was this history, there was this

1022
01:14:23,199 --> 01:14:27,720
history between them, right, but
I can't say any more than that.

1023
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,239
What I really, what the really
book, the book goes into is how

1024
01:14:30,279 --> 01:14:35,880
this admiral disobeyed direct orders from the
Prime Minister and Defense Minister to support the

1025
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:41,399
Americans. In fact, they emptied
Halifax Harbor the largest military report, and

1026
01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:44,920
we did everything we could for them, and the Americans helped us keep it

1027
01:14:45,039 --> 01:14:48,159
quiet. And eventually what would happen, though, is we did admit that

1028
01:14:48,199 --> 01:14:54,479
we were helping. It was discovered
because the Prime Minister felt compelled once other

1029
01:14:54,600 --> 01:15:00,079
Native nations joined in the show's support
for the Cuban blockade. So, but

1030
01:15:00,399 --> 01:15:03,000
it's a controversial thing in our history, and it led to the downfall of

1031
01:15:03,119 --> 01:15:06,520
the Prime minister up here. Of
course, governments can fall at any time.

1032
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:13,800
Mane right, Well, Eisenhower was
indeed a Republican. And let's see.

1033
01:15:14,239 --> 01:15:18,760
The thing I would like to say
right now is the producer took to

1034
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:24,800
the first two calls and gave each
person a book, So I didn't I

1035
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:30,520
didn't make it clear with her about
doing it twice. So anyway, she's

1036
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,119
getting a lot of calls still for
your book. So, by the way,

1037
01:15:34,159 --> 01:15:36,640
you can still get the book.
It's just not going to be a

1038
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:41,960
signed one. Its available on Amazon. But it's on Amazon, and the

1039
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:46,119
link is in down in the YouTube
video and also in the show notes,

1040
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:51,199
so everyone can still get the book. But let me ask you this here.

1041
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:56,199
This is a very good question,
because I wondered this too. Can

1042
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,439
I ask how the crafts left?
We did anyone ever talk about that?

1043
01:16:00,159 --> 01:16:03,840
No? No, I mean we
know how they left in the Shag Harbor

1044
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:08,800
incident in sixty seven. No,
we don't have any kind of follow up

1045
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:12,199
to that. I'm still looking for
that. As the book explains at the

1046
01:16:12,279 --> 01:16:15,560
end of the book, this is
just the end that I had one busy

1047
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:18,359
year since I knew the identities of
the ship and the actual dates of the

1048
01:16:18,399 --> 01:16:23,800
incident, and now enter in phase
two of us. Basically, what this

1049
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:27,960
has done is taken what was just
a story to this point and made it

1050
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,319
a viable case and one that,
like Martin pointed out, I think they're

1051
01:16:31,319 --> 01:16:34,640
gonna have to rewrite the history books
regarding the depth on one thing and the

1052
01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:39,880
rest of it. Right before our
time rents out, Martin, I'd like

1053
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,039
to mention to them that you're coming
to Nova Scotia this fall. And I

1054
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:47,760
am really excited about that. Yeah, and so am I, you know,

1055
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,479
because you know it's you heard.
We had quite the bang up one

1056
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:55,359
last year. I'll put this way. He had such a blast. Dick

1057
01:16:55,399 --> 01:17:00,239
Pope's coming back, he said,
just because of the fish cakes. Yeah.

1058
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:02,399
And I was supposed to be there
last year, but I was actually

1059
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:09,239
on the operating table when I was
supposed to be speaking. Yeah, and

1060
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:13,880
doing well now, but I really
want to thank you for reinviting me back.

1061
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:16,800
Absolutely, Yeah, and I can't
wait. I can't wait. So

1062
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:20,199
that Shag Harbor for anyone that wants
to come up and have some fun.

1063
01:17:20,279 --> 01:17:27,720
That's October first. I have a
Shark Harbor, Nova Scotia. So well,

1064
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,760
Yarmouth, Yarmouth, Oh, Yarmouth. Yeah, the Grand Hotel in

1065
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,479
you it's in Yarmouth. Yes,
it's in Yarmouth, which is about what

1066
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:39,560
fifty miles from Shagar Yeah, not
quite that much, but anyone wants to

1067
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:44,640
find out shag Harbor ufoxpo dot com
online. You'll get all the greed details.

1068
01:17:44,640 --> 01:17:47,279
See the great lineup we got,
you know, Travis Walton, Nick

1069
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,039
Martin of course you know. Oh, I didn't realize Travis is going to

1070
01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:56,079
be there. Travis is going to
be there. Paulo Harris, uh oh

1071
01:17:56,159 --> 01:17:58,279
yeah, yeah, we got quite
the lineup sort of thing. And of

1072
01:17:58,279 --> 01:18:02,720
course I'll be there. Yeah,
excellent, Well I answer question. Yeah,

1073
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,600
it's going to be a blast.
It will be. Thank you so

1074
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:10,000
much, Chris. It's always a
pleasure talking to you, and I really

1075
01:18:10,079 --> 01:18:14,840
respect you and I think you do
your one heck of a researcher and this

1076
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:18,479
book really made me find that out. By reading it, I was so

1077
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:24,039
impressed with your work. So and
thank you for doing that. Well,

1078
01:18:25,119 --> 01:18:29,479
I thank you, no really,
yeah, yeah, it means a lot

1079
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,399
to hear it from you. Yeah, that's why I wanted you to do

1080
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:34,760
it forward. You were at the
top of the list. Thank you,

1081
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:39,279
And I just threw the list away
at name one and he said, yes,

1082
01:18:39,399 --> 01:18:43,159
how can you go wrong? Yeah, excellent. Alright, Chris,

1083
01:18:43,199 --> 01:18:45,399
we'll see you in October. We
will, okay, my friend, Thank

1084
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,600
you so much, be back,
goodbye, al right, everyone. So

1085
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:53,319
that's it for the show this evening. Next week we'll be back with Paul

1086
01:18:53,880 --> 01:19:00,399
Escou and the UK and thank you
for watching the show and we'll see you

1087
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,199
same. We'll see it Tuesday next
week. Remember to keep your eyes to

1088
01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:25,560
the sky.