Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin. Willis your host,
and we got another great show for you this evening. We have William or
a Bill as he likes to be called Grubowski. He's going to be talking
about um, he has a he had a number one seller on Amazon and
black Light. It was called Perspectives on Mysterious Phenomena and we're gonna be talking
all about that, his interest in UFOs, and a lot more. For
all of those out there that celebrate Christmas, Mary, Christmas to you.
That's coming up in just two days. That's why we're a day early here.
We are going to be doing that next week as well. And that
way, the radio station is not going to be playing on New Year's evel
or tomorrow night and Christmas Eve, so we're going to get them the file
early next week. This week, again I told you it's Bill Jibrawsky.
Next week is going to be a another interesting show. It's going to be
about all about Star Trek. Now for those truck he's out there, it
should be interesting. I'm going to pull up the name right here in just
a second of who we have. We have two two people on what is
actually he plays Captain Kirk, and I'm sorry, my computer is just a
little bit slow here. And his name is Mark. Just can't pull up
his last name. He's in the new Star Trek that just come out recently,
and they his the co host for that show. That's going to be
with him. Co guest, i should say, is someone that has written
a book recently. Also. And I see these people without turning names on
our right here right in front of you. It's pretty funny, I know,
isn't that funny? I just have their pictures right here. Anyway,
it's a it's Star Trek continues. That's whom he plays. Captain Kirk is
going to be on that and the book it's actually an audiobook. I believe
it's called These Are the Voyages and Mark Cushman and Vic mcnogna. That who
is good. That's who's going to be on the show next week. So
tune in for that again, Mary, Christmas to everyone out there who celebrates
happy holidays and all that. It's a wonderful time of year. It's actually
pretty warm, warm here in Maine, seasonably warm. I gotta love that.
And in the second hour we will be taking calls tonight so we're not
on KGr A Radio live this week, so we'll be taking calls at the
old number. That will be posted and if you want to write that down,
if you're listening on YouTube right now, I will have it on the
screen, but it is six h three nine six seven four h three zero
again. That'll be up in the second hour. I guess it's a time
too well. Let me just just a couple of other things real quickly.
Alejandro couldn't make the show tonight once again, but he did say Merry Christmas
to everyone out there, and hopefully he'll be on. If not, If
Alejandro doesn't come back, we're not fighting. He's not ill or anything like
that. Has nothing to do with anything that people are speculating that are writing
me. It's just that he has he has just at this time decided that
he didn't want to be on. I know he was on Coast to Coast
the other night. But anyway, hopefully he'll be back. If not,
we may do something different down the line. I'm not really sure as far
as the UFO news goes, but I do want to thank everyone that helps
out with the show and sports the show. Anyone can do that. All
you have to do is go over to podcast UFO dot com dot com and
you'll see the information over there. There's also a Patreon site and you can
listen to the full two hour shows if you just help us out. We
also have a blog up Charles Leo rhoda blog for this week and it's called
the UFO Archives of the University of Manitoba, and that's about Chuck Rikowski Chris
Kowski, that is, who has donated a lot of UFO material to the
University of Manitoba. So check out that blog on podcast ufo dot com.
Over at Facebook, we have news stories posted by Peggy almost every single day
regarding UFOs and space. Check it out. Recently, I've been getting some
email from listeners about the arts parts as they used to be called, how
they may be just like radiator materials. Now. I don't want to lead
anyone astray or wrong or anything. I know Linda moultenhow was involved or has
the materials or had the materials to the Stars Academy also had some type of
involvement. It seems like at least part of that could be just simple foil
from a car radiator, but I don't know about any of the other materials.
I think the chain of ownership is kind of iffy on that whole a
lot of stuff. I don't really have too much more as far as what
I've been hearing from listeners. As far as all that goes, I do
know that also Palmer has sent me a couple of UFO stories. He helps
out quite a bit with stories, and that there was another witness that has
come forward on the uss Nimitz case, another pilot. I believe that's so.
I don't have any of the details there, but hopefully I'll have some
more information on that next week. And I think that's enough for me right
now. So let's call in our guest. Our guest, Bill, Welcome
to the show. Thanks for having me on, Martin. Yes, you
were on a long time ago with I was actually I had surgery and I
was out and Michael Louck who filled in for me. So I think that
was what was that four years ago or something like that? Excuse me,
that was September twenty fifteen. Yeah, yeah, wow, time is flying.
Yeah. So anyway, for the a lot of people are not familiar
with you and your work. If you would, could you please give our
listening audience, an idea of who you are, and you know your background
and you're what sparked your interest in this topic. Well, the whole interest
began aside from the usual growing up in the our coming age rather like in
the sixties and early seventies in Northeast Ohio, and you know, usually kids
in my age, you know, we grew up watching Star Track and know
the science fictional movies and stuff horror movies. But in my case, the
direct influence came from something to happen to me when I was ten years old
and living in a Northeast Ohio suburb called Solon, Ohio, which it's about
fifteen miles southeast of Cleveland, and this was in June. It was very
hot out. My father had built an above ground pool, one of those
like aluminum deals. I didn't know, maybe it was like like fifteen feet
in diameter, and we had a we had a shed applied with shed out
there, a changing shed, and I was going out to swim and I
came around the corner of the shed and I saw some sort of a bird
that looked like it was about three or four feet tall and had a straight
pointed beak, and I knew enough from seeing these this like Keywee brand boot
polish, as bizarre as it sounds, and this is what this bird looked
like. It had black bead eyes and a long, straight pointed beak,
and I didn't know what to make of it. So I just stood there
looking at it, and it started to walk toward me, and I freaked
out and ran inside. My mother was there. She wanted to know what
happened, because by that point I was very upset. She thought that that
maybe someone had got in the hold of me and tried to molest me or
something, and she went out there and didn't see it. Um. And
then later later on the day, my father came home and we were in
the basement. I was still upset. He had got me a new pair
of boots. These were like Wellington Cowboy boots, and he said, but
let's just shine your trying your boots, you know, well, you'll feel
better. So I was okay with that. I'm ten years old and I'm
still terrified. And he took out the boot polish with the Kiwi bird hunt
it and I said that that's that's what I saw, and he's going,
you saw this, what are you talking about I said this that bird,
I'm a cover there of this polish That's what it resembled. And he didn't
know what to make of it. He was he was he was upset,
and in retrospect, I can tell he didn't want me to know that how
upset he was about whatever it was that I saw m and that that I
don't know what you would call it was that was that being dramatized? I
don't know, Maybe it was, but that started my interest. And also
not long after that, there was the case of these police officers who chased
the supposed UFO from Ravenna, Ohio, across the border into Pennsylvania. And
because of this, apparently they had gotten into a lot of trouble by even
reporting it by police authorities. And one of the guys, one of the
officers who was involved in his chase, he was very screwed up by it
and he actually just left. He just dropped his whole life and he hid
out in the stolen motel in my hometown. This was in the newspaper.
People were talking about it, like, Yeah, did you hear about this?
This police officer who said he chased a UFO. So it's just I'm
just adding a few more stones to the pool. Like something was going on
in the As you probably know, there was a so called UFO wave in
the mid sixties. Oh yes, um, I guess this was part of
that. Um. But but anyhow, between that, that incident of seeing
the strange bird that that happened to me, pardon me, and the uh
this police police car chase, which I think would be created in Close Encounters
of the third kind um in the beginning of the film. Um. That
that's what sparked my interest, which became kind of you know, obviously it
became a lifelong interest enough to to write a book about it and um and
go from there. Have you ever personally talked to other people about any type
of um, you know, UFO encounters or anything like that. Yes,
um, I guess that, you could say officially, at like announcing myself
as a as a writer, the first time I ever really like interviewed people
was in Point Pleasant, West Virginia exactly in two thousand and three. And
prior to that, I had read, well even that long before that,
when I was in high school, I read the Mothman Prophecies, and of
course we know that's a classic I came out of nineteen seventy five, and
when I was reading that, I had kind of a I don't know,
I researched and stuff this remembering this thing that I saw right, just this
bird that that could have very well been just an out of place bird I
wasn't used to seeing, or you know, something else. I don't know,
but reading Kiel brought that all back. And then much later on,
you know, I'm still I'm still following, you know, the field,
reading reading the books. I'm also reading the guys like Philip Class, you
know, the who was the hardcore skeptic right, and a few others.
And then um, I'm reading more more of Keel, which eventually led me
to I think I found out online about this this festival they had every year
in Point Pleasant, the Mothman Festival. They figured out, okay, here's
a way to help the time make money. And because Point Pleasant is a
small place and it's it's surrounded by a live industry on the Ohio River.
But this festival really really has taken off. And to make a long story
shorter, John Keel was there in two thousand and three, and that was
knowing that he was going to be there. That got me a go say.
I met him briefly. Um at that point he was almost completely blind.
I had no idea about that, but he was in a a small
like I guess it used to be just a regular shop, and they made
it so he could he could have people file in the air, sign autographs,
signed books, and I don't know if they weren't prepared for this or
what, but there were a lot of people getting his autograph in. And
this was shortly after the movie version of Mothman Prophecies came out, so I'm
obviously that gave it a huge boost. So I got to talk to him
briefly, took some photographs, unfortunately not very good photographs because I was using
it as posable camera. But I did get to speak with some of the
original witnesses that he mentions in Mothman Prophecies. And it turned out that the
town was still like it wasn't there when these things happened in sixty six and
sixty seven, still divided that you know, part of the town was like
they seemed embarrassed, yet they still showed up for the festival, right,
and then the other ones were like, oh, this is all completely true.
It ruined my family, you know, it drove my grandmother crazy.
And but but that's how the whole thing, that's how it was sustained with
me anyway, And that was also what started this idea about writing a book.
It took me a long time to get that far though. Uh yeah,
Um, speaking of books, um, you've written how many? Now?
Has is it? Nine? Right? Including black Light is the only
thus far nonfiction book. All my other stuff is um this fiction like primarily
dark fiction like horror and the darker end of the science fiction cyberpunk spectrum.
And you have A Cold World. That's an upcoming book that you expect coming
out that's also going to be nonfiction, right right? That that is that
that will be a It's related to Black Light, but a very different kind
of book. It's kind of whereas black Light to be described as well,
it's a deconstruction of of you of the UFO field and paranormal and Cold Cold
World is more like, um, I don't want to say attacking, but
let's say it's a survey of of of current day philosophy like speculative realism and
really about trying to dig into what you could call the operating system of reality
and the world and how much it's changed since since the Internet came to life.
Yes, that topic does come up on on the show, has come
up, for instance, a number of times I've talked to old time researchers
and say and have said to them, you know, what has happened in
the world of upology since the Internet, you know, came around? One
of the some of the changes. Um, there's the good and bad,
you know. I mean I could think of almost as many bad as a
good good. For instance cgi UM. You know when it comes to YouTube
and all that, there are a number of Um, there is a there's
a website devoted to the skepticism good skepticism of UFOs to keep you know,
more or less, keep people honest. I can't think of the name of
it right now, but on that what's that is that Robert Schaeffer bad UFOs?
No, I know who I know who that is? Actually I met
him in Phoenix a few years ago. This is this is actually I wish
I could pull it up. I send an email to him, ask him
to if I could use some of his information. But I do believe that
he had called out sixty four YouTube channels that were sending out you know,
basically hoax videos in order to gain traffic, in order to make money.
And there was one channel supposedly that was making you know, several thousand dollars
a week just on you know, fake YouTube videos out there, which is
it's really a shame when it comes to someone that is trying to take a
serious look at, you know, what's going on and they get hung up
on a couple of videos they find out later that are just fake, and
then they'll just go away, they'll no longer have interest in it. Kind
of burns. This happens way too much. Yeah, Yeah, nothing anyone
can do, only you know, perhaps call out when you see something like
that. And then also just keep our side of the road clean, as
they say, and you know, make sure that we don't ever give any
gasoline to the fire of any of the you know, of any of the
fraudulent stuff out there, right right, That's that's the best way. And
he has been said before, like the burden of proof is on the people
are putting these videos up, you know, and they i mean they have
no choice really about to submit to you know whatever analysis people like like me
or you would apply to it, but the burden of proof is on them
because you're right with CGI. I mean, I've seen some videos I'm sure
you have, um or they're incredible and you get transfixed and then you realize,
well, okay, I know a little bit about how CGI works,
and this is probably how this is done in the end, and then,
uh, you know, thank whatever's in charge. Usually someone shortly comes up
with, okay, here, here's here's what this video is about. Here's
how it probably was done. And then they, you know, of course
they have to say here's why, here's how we know it's fake. Yeah.
Um, yeah, And I I personally appreciate that. I try to
run a show that you know, we try to stay as solid as we
possibly can on such an unusual topic that is m you know that we actually
have no proof of what of actually what is what it is that we're seeing,
um, other than the fact that we're definitely seeing something you know,
right right and what you're what you're feeling about, um, what people are
seeing. I know, UM, I've heard you say something along the lines.
It doesn't mean that there's any proof that it's et and I agree with
you. I just feel like we have said this a number of times that
I feel like I know less about the topic the more I get into it.
Um. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And the only thing that
hasn't changed about the way I feel about it is I think that whatever it
is, the least likely seeing is an extraterrestrial And hopefully you didn't just lose
like five thousand listeners. UM I mean saying that, but somebody has to
say it. It's because, um, people who are are easily manipulated,
and usually it's through UM. I know, I know. Keel was big
on this about the power of belief systems and on how they they have slowly
slowly UM, I don't want to say completely, but largely replaced, like
the religious impulse in some people to where not only and I found this one
point pleasant. Not only do they believe some stuff, they need to believe
it. And if you get let's just say, if you get cranky toward
them and say, you know, well, what are you are? You?
You know, are you a nut? Why would you believe this crap?
And they would say it's not about you know, you can tell me
anything you wants or with facts. I don't care. I believe it I
know what I saw, right, And you can't say, as I found
out, no, you don't know what you saw because you don't know enough
about you know, astronomy and physics. And in a case of like like
with Mothman, right, are so called crypto terrestrial? You know, you
don't know about how stress affects you. And but so you can't stand there
and tell that people with a straight face, because they're gonna you know,
it could gets fineent just like you know, trying to if you go up
to you know, like a devout Catholic and say, do you know that
you believe what you believe in is your rational you know they're not gonna they
might not want to leave you standing. M Yeah, there's been wars over
things like that. Absolutely. Um yeah, you know, I mean I
I think I personally, my personal thoughts are is that some of what people
saying now now I feel like I'm sounding like Stanton Friedman because he said,
you know, some of what people are actually seeing out there he does believe,
or he did believe, was extraterrestrial. And I'm thinking that all I'm
thinking that it is possible that some of what people are seeing is extraterrestrial,
I wouldn't rule it out, sure, and a nance as far as far
as I can go, right, I cannot. You know, the old
the saying is, um, you know you'll be intellectually dishonest if you say,
no, no chance, none of it's extraterrestrial. I would never go
that far because it could be. I just don't know that it is.
Yeah. Yeah, but as far as uh, well, we're going to
be going into breaking just a couple of just a couple of minutes here.
Um, as far as your book that is coming out, when you say
you're kind of picking apart um the beliefs, does this also cover the UFO
phenomena as well? In this book there will be a chapter maybe two that
does get into there. And it's more, it's more covered in in philosophy,
there's a thing called speculative realism. And what it is. It's it's
looking at like let's just for a really quick example here, like what someone
points at a table and they say, whatever that is, whatever that object
is, it's not a table, we call it that, but in reality
it's just you know, it's an object with legs. And the scary thing
about speculative realism. An object oriented ontology is that it makes it really it
looks as humanity as as objects. Okay, not not like objectifying, but
as as if. It's like stripping the world down to its basics, and
what's left over is really unpleasant to think about, like like, for instance,
nothing in the world needs us. If we disappear tomorrow, no animal
would miss us, things things of that nature. And the point is so
you can start all over again and build it back up and look at it
with a with a clear ride. Yeah, I think the world would be
actually better off without us. I hate to say it, but it might
agree with you. Martin, Yeah, yeah, all right, Well it's
time to go into our first break, so hang and everyone will be right
back. This is Martin Willis with William Grubowski and we'll be right back.
All right, So welcome back to the show, I guess tonight, as
William or as he likes to be called, Bill Grubowski. So let's see
as far as as far as if it were et and it was actually confirmed
that these are extraterrestrial that are visiting us, if it ever was at any
given time, do you think we're in a different place than we were,
say twenty five years ago, as far as how society would handle something like
that and if so or if not, why so or why not? Yeah,
I would say we're in a very different place. And but again going
out on a limb here, I'm glad that I'm not standing in the midst
of of a huge crowd. Um. When when television came around, people
were very we're very concerned that I was going to like, you know,
rock rock, the imaginations mostly of kids. It's always are the kids right?
Protect the children? And you know, I'm all for that. Why
shouldn't. They're the future. They have to be protected. But television was
Initially it was fear right that it would really corrupt people. But the thing,
the big difference now is watching television's a passive experience. It's not interactive.
These days, it is right, you can change the channel, you
can binge watch you know, whatever you want. You can watch all the
breaking bad in a week or whatever. But the point is the culture has
has changed completely. And now with um, you know, the power of
belief, you know, the chances for manipulation are deeper. But like the
like, the general population is now so used to you know, kind of
a fragmented attention span. And you know that's all that's another big thing.
All the Internet is killing attentions. Well it is. And if you spend
too much time I there's there, you build up in impatience with things.
Um and this is also, as I've found out, is hurting the publishing
industry where you know, and and it's again it's dangerous to say things like,
well, the average person blah blah blah, because when you try and
find the average person, that person doesn't exist because you're you know, you're
trying, You're trying to put you know, a group of people into one
hole and you can't do that. But attentions are you know, I'm just
I followed things. I pay attention. I pay attention to what comments people
make, and even like they may be reading an article that's fascinating and they
might say, oh wow, that was long, and then I'll look at
it and go, it was like four pages. That's too long. And
it's kind of a fear I have, Like, you know, I'm a
guy who writes books, Well, is is there really a future in that?
Because personally I don't like ebooks. I don't I don't enjoy that experience
some of the books I get to review for UM Library Journal. Sometimes they're
ebooks, mostly they're not, though they're they're really good about sending hardcover.
But um, the experience of always always, always being in this this sort
of eternal present moment is stressful. And I find that that's more true about
people my age. Like I was born in fifty eight, so I'm older
than a lot of people. But but anyhow, it seems that it's harder
on those of us who were around before the Internet and then had to adapt
to it than it is on people who kind of are blowing into it.
They don't really see like, well, why are you so upset about this?
And that it's almost like, well know, if you don't know how
to drive a car and you've never wrecked one, you will not be able
to understand what that feels like. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm right
there with you and the age and everything, and no, I I totally
get it. And um, I also, you know you're talking about all
the information coming at us. That's what it's it's about, and why the
extent the attention spans are so short. I do believe it's like everything is
being pelted at us in all different ways, and you yeah, and then
if you I never really talk about too many personal things in my life,
but my career has been extremely busy. That's why I missed out on doing
a show last week. It's just has really taken off and been very busy.
But also, um, I took a segment of out of my life.
They had to do with the Internet and had to do with the you
know, paying attention and that as I decided, oh, I don't know,
maybe a month ago, this is something very personal to me and I'll
probably get email about it. And I described about a month ago to completely
disconnect from politics completely because I was it was actually getting me down and the
divisiveness in this country and the attacking and the negativity. So I completely got
rid of all my news apps. I completely get rid of anything they had
to do with news. I'm off of Facebook everything. And I got to
tell you, I feel I have more time for myself. I feel one
hundred percent better. And it's just something I had to do. But just
kind of segueing into the amount of information that's out there that's coming at people
all the time, and I think this is also in the respect to people
that are looking into this topic. There's can be they can find all kinds
of information, podcasts, videos and uh, and I can get letters straight
fairly quickly. Um. So there you go. Yeah, Um, I
completely get every word you said. And the thing is, especially when filtered
through you know, all the the UFO stuff, what I'm seeing is um.
And and again not to harp on younger people of that, not only
are they not aware of like the older cases. Um, there's there's almost
a sort of, you know, a grudging acceptance, Well, why I
don't have to know that stuff. It's all on the internet. And to
someone like me values books and learning and all of that, I'm like,
how can you say that it's not don't rely on the internet for information,
rely on what you learn, you know and teach herself and and man,
no, I'll get you slapped on fast. In some quarters, the idea
of well why do I need to know you know, geography, general geography
or whatever, general history when I can just look it up our history.
I'm like, well, yeah, right, history when you go to h
depends on where you get your information. I'm not so sure a lot of
people using the internet are aware that there are so called authority sites. And
there's a dangerous word to use right there, to look at like Wikipedia is
not the ultimate authority on anything. In my opinion, that's wrong. Yeah,
you know, I mean enough, I want to know something and be
certain about it. Let's say there's there's a small country I don't know a
lot about. Am I going to go to Wikipedia? No, I'm going
to go to like National Geographic. I'm going to go to some you know,
God saved me some government database and look at that. Because these people
are paid to provide you know, correct information, they're they're liable for it.
That's why I would trust it. If if someone has something to lose
by putting up you know, bad information, that person can probably be trusted.
I say, I have nothing to lose. Wikipedia has nothing to lose.
If they put cramp up there. Someone can come in, anyone can
come in and just edit it, edit out. That's the thing. When
I first heard about that, I'm like, man, that's a bad idea.
You know. Now, I understand democracy and all that, right,
but when it comes to you know, okay, two and two equals four,
right, yes it does. And guess what that never changes no matter
what you say about it. You can hate two plus two equals four,
but that's what it is. And Wikipedia seems to saying no, no,
no, no, it's what I say it is because I'm allowed to.
And you know that's a can of worms there. Yes, So it's like,
you know, here we are in the information age. But it's it's
a double edged sword, you know. I think that's kind of what what
the tone of this conversation is. It's a double edged sword because, um,
it is there's as much misinformation is there is information, and to try
to sort it all out, especially when it comes to something like UFOs or
anything you know, paranormal. Um, so what are your are you?
You mentioned earlier that there it's almost like a religion, and what do you
think, Uh, pop culture you know plays into say something like UFOs.
Um hugely, absolutely huge. Yeah. I recall discussing this with Michael luck
when the last time I was on podcast UFO, and we we probably got
a little too deeply into that. But but I think for a good reason,
like pop culture and everyone's affected by it. It's like the air.
You know, you're a fish in water. You don't even notice it hardly,
and it does I think it does affect people's viewpoints on on UFO reality
or non reality. And you know, some of the movies television shows,
they're so like visually sophisticated that you're you're affected emotionally and you want to believe
things, or there's that whole old there's that old saying, you know from
the X Files, I want to believe. I always hated that poster in
Motor's office because I always think, no, I like, I don't want
to believe. I want to understand. It's a difference. And pop culture
really really works that, you know, like they do work on people's people's
beliefs and emotions because that's how they stay in business. So you know,
at the bottom of that, there's this whole you know, bottom line mentality.
And it's also been called predatory capitalism. Not that I'm like, I'm
like anti capitalist, I'm anti bad capitalism to to where it, you know,
all it cares about is manipulating people's feelings so they'll buy more stuff.
Yes, um, yeah, capitalism is not perfect, that's for sure.
And it just seems that we can always expect a downturn and we can always
expect recession and depression when when we have a capitalism and up. I don't
know what the answer is. It could be tuned up possibly, but yeah,
and that's the thing. It's like, well it's a big game.
But but you know, at least in America, it's kind of like,
well, it's the only game in town, and you have to you have
to pay attention to it. And so you know, try and avoid falling
into traps like verify things that you see on mine or on television, you
know, because it is it's so easy to fake today. And what exactly,
I've never really heard predatory capitalism and how does that how does that work
with what our topic is about? Well, I've one word springs right to
mine, like clickbait we started talking about, and um, you know as
far as like the like UFO phenomenon goes m man, especially places like YouTube
with with these with these videos and m h see that's the whole thing like
that, that exactly, that's the bad that's it draws people in and then
you know, you can't you can't really fairly blame the individual for going holy
crap, have you seen this video? Because I myself have been in that
seat. I still am. Some days we're all see a video and go,
that is that's astounding? What is that? And then someone else does
the work for me and they say, well, no, no, here's
how this really worked. But had I not known that, and I was
in you know what, whatever anxiety moved that day or something, I may
have went, that's absolutely real and you cannot tell me it's not. M
don't remember. Do you remember the alien autopsy film when that came out,
and then oh yeah, I was one of the the poor sides that went
out and bought the VHF. I had to see you more, well,
I do. I do remember. I wasn't paying any attention to the UFO
field at that time, and I had a busy an auction company basically,
so I was extremely busy, and I remembered like walking past the TV and
then seeing an alien being operated on and going whoa, and you know,
it's kind of funny. You know. Back then my reaction was wow,
hey, well I guess it's real, and then I moved on. I
didn't even you know, and I'm wondering how if there were other people that
or if this is what will actually happen once you know, we really actually
do find there's a intelligent life out there well right away, and I can
only I'm glad I heard your example that you were able to see that,
right, and then go, well, I don't know, and you weren't.
You were not you know, into me, crazy about obsessed with it.
And when I saw that, I was like, okay, okay,
for what I thought was that is either that's that's got that's got to be
real, or it is the best hoax I have ever seen. And this,
in my case, this I think I've been on the internet maybe two
years in that came. That came out of like nineties seven or something like
that. Nineties sounds about right, um. And then I saw it in
it was covered in one of the UFO magazines, and then it started to
get like mainstream news coverage like this can't this cannot be real because if it,
if it were, there's no way that that sort of a thing could
be kept under wraps. The way people talk, even even you know,
people who are you know, supposedly like working in the intelligence community, there's
there are leaks all the time, and something that big. I was thinking,
no way that cannot be hidden. And then of course it turned out
to be a hoax. Now we know how it was done and all that,
and they tried to you know, tie it in with Roswell. Yeah
that's right. Um, I remember that, the tie in with Roswell.
And that's funny. The funny thing about the leg that's kind of like burnt
off one of the legs, and that was because it wasn't They accidentally did
that and then made it look like you know, it was it was burnt
or something, right, yeah, yeah, And just recently there's there was
some talk about that, um that I think the owner of the film was
trying to say somehow again that it was really real or something along those lines.
And of course Philip Mantel, who's one of the people. He was
actually going to be on the show last weekend and became ill couldn't make the
show. But he is really the one that uncovered the fact that it was
fake. He did all the work on that in England. And this was
Philip what is his last name? Mantle like a fireplace, Yeah, okay
about yeah, yeah, so but no, no, interesting, he was
able to figure all that out. Santilly. I think the person's name is
that was involved in the yeah, right, right, yeah, but I
mean, there's a good case right there of uh, you know, something
getting out there and the reaction to it. You know, how are people
going to react to something like that? I mean that was worldwide, that
went everywhere. Yeah, and there was a that was the viral before there
was viral as a term, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so you
mentioned earlier that you don't think that people getting into, say the UFO topic
at all, they're not interested in the old cases, because I do get
some every once in a while, I'll get an email from a listener that
say, hey, why do you always talk about the old case? We're
sick of the old cases. But you know, I mean, I guess
the best new case, or the one that people are talking about the most
of these days, is not really new. But it's not really that old
two thousand and four Nimits case. That's pretty strong and pretty interesting. Have
you yourself looked into any of that, Yes, they have. Um,
I guess the first thing that got my attention, Um, it's a personal
thing. My my cousin used to be on the nimits. So I saw,
I just solid what USS nimits like. Okay, I gotta hear about
this. And then when I heard what it was about, I was like,
Okay, now I have my attention, um, And it's it's unusual
that it's persisted this long, but that just that just proves how you know,
if someone gets emotionally into something, it's very hard to shut it off.
And even if you're a pretty well educated person, it's it's hard to
overrule emotions with your intellect. And then that whole thing there, like my
take on it is after after reading all this stuff and I'm still keeping up
with it, right, is that it looks to me like it's probably a
target Roman. M hmm. I don't know. There's there would have to
be a lot of questions answered, um when it came to the capabilities and
the uh, I just don't know. I mean, they're talking about one
hundred and thirty g's, you know, some of the right hand turns and
things like that. You know, there's been a lot of uh speculation lately
on the Internet that I've seen, you know, pop up about it being
some type of you know, advanced military um, you know, training exercise
to see what the Navy would you know, how the Navy would react,
and yeah, and I don't know, you know, when you hear of
actually what the thing did and what happened um it to me, it seems
pretty incredible. I really don't know what to think, but I do believe
that it's it's pretty unusual. And um then there was also the case of
course off Florida, UM you know ten years later that was pretty incredible as
well. And uh, I might not be familiar with that one. What
if you don't mind briefly what happened there? Well that's um where the one
of the videos that came out, um that to the Stars Academy is you
know had that film. Um, lou Alesando had something to do with that
film as well. It's called the Gimbal. Are you familiar with that?
It turns some sections. Okay, I'm familiar with with with the name gimbal,
but I can't. I don't know if I've seen that fit or is
this the one with the multiple lights over the ocean? It's the one where
it's actually turning. It keeps showing that it's tilting. And then there's the
the pilots are you know commenting on it? And you know, hey dude,
or you know all that type of stuff. Oh, now you know
when you put it that way with the dialogue. I think I had seen
that video. That's the one that actually came out on in December uh sixteenth,
twenty seventeen, and the New York Times. It was really the same
time that that article came out. That's what made the big you know,
all the headlines and all the news stories. It was was the gimbal.
The tik Tak video was secondary and one that you see, uh, you
rarely see compared to the gimbals, the number one video. Okay, right
right, yeah, I can, I can to see my my adult memory,
I'm seeing those two merds, the tik Tak and the Gimbo. And
I recall reading about where where you can see the the pilot dash right,
the readouts and everything that's it. Yeah, you see the screen, uh
huh and the you know, the knots per wind and you know all that
stuff. Yeah, right, And I don't remember someone was commenting on okay,
if you look closely at you know, the screen, the pilot screen
on this on this video and then look at this all the one that that's
coming to mind. For some reason, like there was either a discrepancy or
or there was something was brought up about the what the pilot could see on
the screen, and I don't know exactly what they call it. Um,
I don't need on the instruments to lead out. Yeah yeah, UM,
so you've you've kind of following that you have following followed that whole situation,
UM on both sides to me. We chatted just briefly just ahead of the
show, and you mentioned that you have seen different things posted by people like
John Greenwald and all that. It's Uh, yes it is. It is
quite a mystery, UM, when all the pieces come together, trying to
figure out which way is which? Um. What are your thoughts in general
when it comes to um, you know Tom, what Tom DeLong has done,
the people with him, that's a whole I guess I'm glad that I
have been following this. The thing is, what it proves about me is
that no matter what someone is saying about you know, is this a UFO?
Is this not a UFO? I'm basically relying on three people, um,
John Greenwald, Robert Schaefer and Jack Brewer. Jack Jack Brewer, I
haven't talked to him in a while, but I can seer him a friend
and I really I trust he's about it. I guess he's about as objectives
as a person can be and be interested in this stuff and you know,
comment intelligently about it. And as far as this this recent thing goes,
which is, you know, really not that recent anymore. And I said
earlier that I thought it was a target drone. I should have said no,
no, I think it's like a high performance you know, classified the
aircraft or some sort of thing, and that they were testing reactions of pilots,
you know, and of course the pilots can't know what it is because
they won't get a genuine reaction. And a year years ago, you know,
Jacques Vali published this, uh, I think it was in Forbidden Science.
The I mentioned this in my book. There was a memorandum where the
military military intelligence was suggesting that um ufo phenomena be faked to test public reaction.
Um, I'm actually looking at my own book right here, very quickly,
the Pencacle memorandum and Projects Stork. And this this memorandum which which Jacques
vally hid from Alan Heinik for a while, but he eventually showed it to
him where and then and this this is an actual memorandum and I think it
was written by Btel, the Betel Institute in Columbus, Ohio, where I
used to live. Strangely um where they were they were they were a think
tank. Betel still is a think tank, and they were suggesting faking UFO
sightings and calibrating the public's reactions because they were trying to you know, it
was some kind of a you know, this is another classic conspiracy thing where
you know, involved with contingency planning and you know, what are we getting?
What is the government going to do if there is an actual UFO whatever
you want to call it, breakout invasion? How will people react? We
have to know how they react, And this this Pentacle memorandum was suggesting that.
And then late later on in time people that people have said other researchers
like, well the UFOs were seeing today, you know, the triangles and
stuff. Maybe this is part of that proud of that program. Who knows?
Very interesting? Wow, Well Jack Jack Brewer was on this show back
in twenty sixteen, and so John Greenwald has been on and and uh um
and Schaeffer has not been on, but he has been invited. You know,
I I do like uh I do like listening to uh, you know,
people's point of view, even it doesn't matter if they're a skeptic.
Um, It's all interesting to me because I don't think you know, again
that anyone really has any answers and definitive, you know whatever, the truth,
so to speak. And if you know, if they have it,
they're not talking, yeah, or if they think they have it and say
they have it, then run away, right, I have the absolute truth,
man, Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, hold on,
I'll call you back. Hum. So what do you think, um,
if you were out there like wanting to get younger people looking into this topic,
what do you think a good approach to that is? Do you think
would you go back to the reading of books or do you just think that
that's lost in today's it's kind of what you're mentioning. I guess I'm hoping
it's not lost. You know, I don't think it is, because that's
how I'm making my living as a writer, and again not primarily through through
writing about you know, UFO and paranormal phenomena, but it's still part of
my income, right, so on a way, you know, I have
to be I have to count on my own. Let's just call it integrity
and my desire to be to be truthful even if it hurts me. So
what would I you know, for a young person, I guess I would
probably if they were making a serious inquiry, right, I could easily make
a list of books and it wouldn't be a long list. It would not
be long. Would probably be fewer than ten books that I would recommend,
and they would just have to they would just have to read them, you
know, or at least parts of them. Because again, this whole attention
span thing that that scares me, you know, because if you're not paying
attention, you can be manipulated. And then god, you even remember,
well, what were the actual steps involved in my manipulation? And you know,
myself, I'm constantly backtracking, Like if I see a comment about,
well, you know, about a UFO siting, I'll read I'll read them
all. Like a good example is Jack Brewer's website, the UFO Trail will
because he gets he gets skeptics all the time, and then he'll also get
someone saying, oh, you know, Brewer, you're just saying this because
you know you don't you don't ever want to believe in that the UFOs can
be extraterrest real and you know, through his credit, Jack will say,
well, I no, I don't want to believe that. I want to
I want to find out what's actually going on. If it turns out that
they are extraterrestrial, fine, let's hope that we don't all, you know,
panic and crack up. But the old the old cases are still important
and some of them have fallen apart, some of them havn't. And it's
it's not I don't think it's good when younger people get impatient with there all
these old cases. Who cares well, because that's where all the stuff now
and people's attitudes toward it originated. That's why there's still important. M Yeah,
yeah, a very good point. Um, you know Roswell, we
always talk about Roswell. We probably talked about that a million times on the
show. Um, yeah, it's not going away. Yeah, that's that's
that's not going away. And you know, many many people think, you
know, there has been an explanation that has nothing to do with UFOs.
I'm not convinced. You know. Mother thing I always fall back on is
um and listeners make get tired of me saying this, But um, there
was never any reason at all for the Army Air Force at the time to
come out with the press release that they caught a flying disc. There was
no reason at all that they had to say that part of it. I
agree nineteen forty seven. Think you know that that's easily lost. That was
a long long time ago, not not even remotely like this world, you
know, especially media wise. You're right, they had no reason like why
that specific thing. And you know, I'm not going to be labor because
you're aware of all this stuff as much as I am that you know,
if that was some psy ops you know, psychological operation, why that,
you know, it wouldn't even be like all, we're trying to prepare for
an alien invasion. It was too that wasn't even on people's in people's minds,
including the military, right right, No, No, it's a it's
it's really something. And you know, uh, you know, I had
I think it was the Seth Shostack on recently and he talked about the Mogul
and I understand, you know, of course they would not want to talk
about that in particular, but still that there was absolutely no excuse. In
my book, I'm sorry mob the weather balloons yeah. Yeah. But also
there was that mogul that had to do with a listening device for a Russian
UM, the autom bomb tech. Yeah right, so I don't know,
picking up sounds in the upper atmosphere, right right, yeah, exactly.
But anyway, we are about in just a minute here, we're ready to
go into a minute or two, we're ready to go into a break,
and then when we come back a little bit into the show, UM,
we will be taking calls on a different number, not our normal number,
just one thing before we go into break. It's kind of a loose,
loose break when we go into it here. Okay, the UM earthlike planets
UM that have been discovered, even in the last several years. Do you
think that UM gives more credibility to I don't know, credibility is the right
word for it, more of UM a chance that there's intelligent life out there.
I do think it add credibility is you know, that's an okay word
in my opinion. Again, we have to be clear on that, like,
well, who will who else's opinion would it be? Right? But
anyhow, UM, Yeah, I've I'm really I've been in an amateur astronomer
since I was like eighteen years old building telescope stuff. So that's a huge,
huge interest to me. Um, and I really yeah, I do
think finding these extrasolar you know, earthlike planets, it adds easily to the
possibility that we're not alone because you know, it's it's and I'm not even
joking, what a waste of space if we're the only ones in the universe,
right yeah, yeah, yeah, um yeah, I think it's I
think personally you know that it's it's very possible. I just don't know,
uh, you know what I mean, I just don't know if we'll ever
find out. I don't know if if we are actually being visited by intelligence,
if that's actually what it is or part of what it is. Um.
You know, I guess I could understand why they're avoiding us, but
it's still if they're paying close attention. And why wouldn't they if they discovered
other life, especially our type, right right? Um, you know I
have heard people say something along the lines it would be like us talking to
answer there'd be no real reason for it, um, and that you know,
there could be that much more intelligent and um, you know that is
that is all these things are possible. Yeah, I can't. I can't
disagree with that. Right, the gap, the intelligence gamp would have to
be a massive if they have the tech to get here exactly, especially crossing
the amount of space that has to be crossed. All right, we're ready
to go into a break, so hang in everyone, we'll be right back.
Just be just one minute or two. We'll be right back right after
these messages. All right, here we are. We are back with Bill
Grobowski. Bill, welcome back to the show. Well, thanks, good
to be here. And we have not talked too much about your book again.
Can you throw the title out there? Yeah, the title is black
Light Perspectives on Mysterious Phenomena. And the reason it's called black Light has nothing
to do with the object the black light. Um. And maybe maybe I
was being a little a little punish, trying to be a little bit funny,
where whereas you know a lot of them, a lot of the so
called knowledge about UFOs and and paranormal phenomena, you know, comes from the
so called black world, the secret world. And uh so that was why
I titled it down, like maybe maybe I can shed some light, um,
you know, black operations and stuff. So That's why I called it
black Light UM. And then the sub title is probably more important because I
wanted to be clear that that every chapter in the book, these these are
just these are perspectives about, Okay, what could UFOs be? You know,
what could a poltergeist be? Not here, here's what I think it
is. And you better believe that, you know, if this is true,
because I'm telling you it's It's based on a survey of you know,
very skeptical people. It's based on surveys of of people who as it will
be our believers, and they will not, you know, they don't want
to hear otherwise. And then also people who are who are in between,
like well, I'm not sure, you know, I would probably have to
see it, you know, see a UFO right before me, and maybe
even then I still wouldn't think it was extraterrestrial. You know, there's a
lot of it's based on how people feel about these things. Is based on
their I guess what the psychologists would call your chronic emotional state. If you're
anxiety written, you're going to have bad experiences. If you're a believer in
the paranormal and UFOs, you're probably gonna have bad experiences, and then someone
else who is who is like, let's just say a really solid, you
know, low anxiety person. They could see something and say, well,
you know what, that's really strange. I don't know what that is,
but it doesn't frighten me. So they're you know, there are the whole
the fields. As you mentioned earlier, there's a lot of divisiveness, and
even if there was no Internet, it's still would be that way. It
was, it was that way in the you know, in the sixties and
in the seventies and even before that, right, right, um, well
it is it it really, it really is interesting. You know, as
my my son has said before, you know, whatever these things are,
whether it's a UFO or whether it's uh an encounter with what people think is
a ghost, there's an answer for every single thing that happens. But it's
just that sometimes we don't know what that answer is, right, and what
seems to be happening now. Um. I also covered this in the book,
is that the chapter the chapter is called so what And you know,
it sounds like a little a little snarky, but I'm serious, like,
so what what if UFO inter directs the terrestrial? What if you know there
are actual you know, lingering, uh, consciousness from from people who have
died. What what what difference will that make to our lives? And as
I just mentioned, well it depends on the individual. Some people actually will
not care if they found out UFOs extraterrestrial. Well does that mean I don't
have to go to work tomorrow? You know? Probably no, Probably you
still have to go to work. And you a question of well now and
that if they were proved to be extraterrestrial UFOs that is okay, Well they
went up to the individual to decide how do I, how do I proceed
from this point on? What do I do? Or do I just ignore
it? M? And and and what do you think? Like this is
society how we handle something like that? Well, how do you think we
would handle it? I don't know. I think I'm kind of frightened.
Like as I just mentioned, Okay, right, if we have let's say,
a definitive proof that you know, there's an example, let's just say
an an unusual object was tracked as has happened, you know, I turned
out to be an asteroid or something about was tracked, which it would be
because if you know, everything communications satellites, classified satellites. They're tracking everything.
If there's any kind of airspace infrusion or atmospheric entry, whatever you want
to call it, it's going to be tracked. It's going to be a
record. And if a genuine UFO is tracked, I mean I've I have
no idea of what the what the official reaction would be, because you can't
hide it. You can't hide it anymore. There are people who are just
amateurs, you know, have the ability to tap in the communications satellites,
and you know you can't. You can't hide it anymore. So there it
would be noticed, whether there was official acknowledgement or not. And then the
reaction I think it would it would be like a literal a raw shack ink
blot test. Depending on what kind of a person you are, people be
Some people would panic, but I think most would be amazed and then realize,
well, I still have to live. I'm still me, you know,
I'm still alive, and I've only got so much time to live.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I think that's I think that's
what would happen. I think, you know, there may be a pause
and reflection and then I'll move on like you say, Um, you know,
I do think there would. I think there would be a big pause
really because the initial reaction I think possibly with almost everyone, it's going to
be they're going to be frightened some some certainly um you know, whether they're
predatorial or you know, um, that would be the whole thing. I
remember watching The Twilight Zone and I can't remember the exact episode, but it
was a spaceship landed and this really tall robot or something came out and everybody
was getting off board the ship and there was a book they were trying to
crack the code to and the book was given to um, someone you know,
a leader or something like that, and yeah, it was how to
serve Man end up being a recipe cook that. I love that episode scared
interrupting. I was like pretty much raised on the original Twilights. I remember
that scared the heck out of me as a kid. It scared me too,
I was I'm kind of amazed I was allowed to watch that yeah show
at all. Yeah, because I was pretty young when the original series came
out, like early sixties, right right. Um, But I think they're
of course, you know, I mean, it's all about what their possible
intentions are. I mean, you could speculate all you want um, of
course, but if they've been if it's actually what we're seeing here or some
of what we're seeing here, so far, so good is what I have
to say. Yeah, we've been around a long time, and I'm thinking,
like I used to pay closer attachment to how far our very first,
you know, let's just call it broadcast signals have traveled in space, you
know, because let's let's just say we've been active with electromagnativity since like what
the late eighteen hundreds. I'm thinking like alex Alexander Graham Bell and going all
the way back, right, and those emanations are in space, so they've
been out there are you know, one hundred plus years, So therefore they've
traveled you know, the speed of light whatever. And then that signal's gone
so far and that's as far as it can go, and then you've you've
got the whole Well, how far away is the nearest star, Well,
it's four light years Alpha Centauri. I think it's the closest one not not
not a sun type star. But depending on what sort of life is there,
if any, that might not matter, you know, you go back
to the holding. Could be Silicon based, right, yeah, amazing.
So we will take calls. If someone wants to call in, it's going
to be our old call in number. Because we're not live on KGr A,
we do not have a screener, so you'll be coming into the show
live, and that call number is six zero three nine six seven four h
three zero, and anyone can call. As a matter of fact, I'm
going to say this, the first person to call in right now we'll get
a free T shirt. If you're looking on let me see, if you're
looking on YouTube, that's just right here, podcast you a fol T shirt.
So that number six h three nine six seven four h three zero,
And all I can do is tell you that I'll save your phone number and
I'll give you a call tomorrow and make sure you get that that T shirt.
M one more time. I'm going to just show the T shirt images
this right here. And we do have a website where we sell merchandise,
and that's right on podcast ufo dot com. So all that infos under merchandise
there or the T shirts, coffee cups, you name it. Anyway,
first person to call in gets a free T shirt. I guess that Roy
Christmas, Well you could always hang up and call back, right, But
anyway, Um, as far as the future, what do you how do
you see the future? And UFOs, you know, everybody talks about disclosure.
I mean, I don't think the government's going to be actually disclosing personally,
I don't think. But what are your thoughts on all that? Well,
I'm an agreement with that. I don't think there's going to be any
kind of disclosure because as you well know, there there was a lot of
a lot of talk about that, um well over the past ten years,
sixteen years with that Stephen Greer, Oh yeah, um, and you know,
nothing came to that. And then you know, again depending on you
know, you know, what kind of mood you're in. Then um,
I'm here, I was hearing like what is this information you know, designed
to manipulate or is this misinformation? And I was never I was never quite
sure how to how to take that, but I'm always like, well,
yeah, I'm wide open for disclosure. Please bring it on. Yeah,
Hey, we have a we actually have a caller. Okay, here,
we have two, we have two. Someone called in. I'm writing down
this number before I bring him in four. Hang on just a second.
Uh, maybe I didn't Maybe you didn't come in call. Are you on
the line now? Yes, sir, Hi, what's your name? My
name is Ryan from that Carolina? Hey, Ryan, how are you doing?
So we will talk tomorrow. Get you I'll get you a T shirt.
We have someone else trying to call at the same time, but you
beat everyone out. Oh great, Well, I gotta admit the T shirt
was a huge renovation. Way to go, Ryan. So Ryan, Um,
I'm going to try to write down your number here. I can't.
Oh, I got it. I got it. Okay, all right,
I got it. So I'll give you a ring tomorrow and we'll settle up
with that. And so do you have a do you actually have a question
or you want to wish us all merry Christmas? You have a question for
our guest? Well, um, let me see. Yeah, first of
all, do you want to wish everyone a merry Christmas? Of course?
And uh, I wanted to it tuned in late. He may have already
talked about this. I know you guys were talking over the old cases before.
As it tuned in, I just wanted to ask his thoughts own a
very old case Roswell. I know you had mentioned you had mentioned your wondering
why you know the Army released that statement. My opinion is because Marcel kind
of influenced people to do it. But anyway, I just wanted to catch
his thoughts on it, unless he has already given those thoughts. No,
I haven't really answered that question. By the way, I haven't really gotten
into that. And the thing is, like you know, human evolution in
general, I keep I'm changing my thoughts on Roswell, not toward I don't
know necessarily like they was said earlier, like extraterrestrial Is that the explanation?
Well, you know it could be. And then I either I had the
good or bad luck to read this. This giant book by Annie Jacobs called
Area fifty one, and she you know, so you're somebody or at that
book, right, Martin and maybe Brian. I don't know if you are
or not. But the person who wrote that book, a respected journalist named
Annie Jacobson, and she said that she interview guys you know from the from
the old school, right, who know, from Area fifty one. They
were saying, No, it was a it was a Russian psychological opts because
we went because inside the craft there was cyrillic writing in there, cyrillic being
you know, Russian language. And the first thing I thought was, Okay,
if this was supposed to be a psychological you know, trying to fake
people out just to see how they'd react, why the heck would you would
you like basically sign your name in there and say no, this is from
this is from you know, a different biosphere, this is from outer space.
So that that didn't hang well with me that explanation for Roswell and this
Annie Jacobson is saying, well, this is what she got that story from
from people who actually worked in Area fifty one, And then I was just
like, man, they really played you. So it's but to get back
to your question, um, personally, I have no idea what happened there
for a long time, and in my book black Light, Um I was
saying Roswell had had there been some kind of uh just stick an experiment that
went wrong, because supposedly a lot of people died after you know, the
the nineteen forty seven incidents. So then I was thinking like, well,
was it a German warfare thing gone wrong? And the only way to cover
it up was to make it even scarier by saying it was a crashed flying
saucer. Right, So that's that's what I was doing for for a long
time. Now I'm now I'm not really sure, except that something definitely happened.
Yeah, you know, I've kind of become a skeptic of roswell over
the years. And one thing that occurred to me at one point is why
would the American government conceal it? And I'll tell you why they prop why
they In my opinion, I don't know that they actually would. And here's
why. If you remember the year before, um well excuse me, a
year later, the Stalin Blockade of Berlin, and you apparently apparently he wasn't
intimidated by our monopoly on the atomic bomb. Well, if he wasn't intimidated
by that, I mean, wouldn't you want to send him a message?
You know, hey, Bud, not only do we have a first rate
military, a monopoly only atomic bomb, by the way, we also have
alien technology. Uh. You know, do you really want to mess with
us? Do you want to you want to keep pulling these stunts? And
and I just I'm glad that you brought that up, because that's that's the
thing right there that I was forgetting. Now, if if Americas made that
claim, hey we have extraterrestrial technology, pale, you do not message that.
I mean, what more reason do you need? Right? Yeah?
Yeah, I mean he would probably they probably they probably run right back to
Russia after the least. You hope they would, at the very least,
they at the very least they wouldn't be pulling the I mean, Korea may
have never happened. I mean, you know, either, I don't know
how many. I don't know what he would have thought about pulling after say,
after knowing that. Plus we had a monopoly on wom bombs up at
least until forty nine. Yeah, and then you would have to the Americans
have to be seen in themselves. Well, we better hope they don't call
our bluff because we don't have alien technology, if you know, if that
was actually the case. But if if it actually was an alien crash,
you'd want to you don't want to keep tilting those scales because they had to
be thinking. They had to be thinking themselves. Well, look, you
know, I mean they likely got into the Manhattan Project. They'll get they'll
find out about this eventually. Anyway, I mean, so you know,
let's let's let's let's go ahead and tell them and basically send them aself.
I mean, a lot of people think the atomic bombings of here Shima,
Nagasaki were done as kind of a show of force to the Russians and basically
say, you know, look, you know we don't hesitate to get out
the big stuff. Well, you know, if you're into sending a message,
that's one message I would send them me personally. Yeah, that's right.
That's an undeniable show of force, so to speak. You know,
you cannot mess with them. Interesting topic anything else here, Ryan, that's
well. Also, I'll just make it easier for you if you want to
just email me right now at Martinette Podcast UFO dot com. We'll get you
a T shirt. Okay, thank you sir, All right, thanks Ryan,
Yeah, thanks for the call. So that line is open and I'll
probably feel generous enough to give out another T shirt if someone would like to
call in. Um So that is six h three nine sixty seven four h
three zero And now, interesting point, I've never ever thought of the subject
that you know, Ryan brought up as never thought of a show of a
force, a show of power of reverse technology or anything like that. Um,
so we do have another caller coming on here. Interesting topic. Caller.
What's your name and where are you calling from? First name? Color?
Can you hear us? I see a caller, but I'm not hearing
them. Hello caller, all right, Uh, maybe they dropped off here.
So that line again once again is open six h three nine sixty seven
four h three zero h It says miscall strange. I don't know how that
happened. I picked it up. Try calling back, and but no,
that is a that is an interesting take on that whole situation. I would
have never thought of that. It is. And another part of that,
or I guess the part of it is. You know, let's say that
there was you know, there was an actual crash of an extra trust to
a vehicle. Would we be able to like reverse engineer in nineteen forty seven
or even now? I know a chance this would be better now, but
back then I could. It's like unimaginable. Um, you know, I've
heard people liking it to going back to um the Civil War with a iPhone
and so I knocked yourself out. Um, yeah, here you go.
Yeah, you could easily say this came from our planet and in civil war,
I would say, I believe you. Yeah, you don't know what
this thing is. Yeah, that's right. Um. You know I had
doctor Michael masters On uh several months ago, I think three, three or
four months ago, and his thought was that it's a possibility. Um.
He was an anthropologist and a professor or anything. He was thinking that it's
possible, with how evolution is going, that we may be looking at us
in the future time travelers. And I thought, wow, what another what
another fascinating Oh yeah right, yeah, that's that's coming in from a completely
different direct which which which could be equally frightening, you know, yeah,
because that's been played up big time, and you know in science fiction,
in literature and in the movies, where we could be like completely unrecognizable to
ourselves and you know, whatever survivors are some horrible environmental thing gone wrong or
or whatever. Well, I don't if we turn into grace, I certainly
don't think we've become more attractive in my opinion, and that's generally what evolution
seems to have done. Um, So I don't know. He did have
answers for things like the gray pigmentation and everything, which was. It was
pretty amazing. Did he cover I didn't actually hear that, did he cover?
Like? Well, in far future, since we would we would be
like I'm discussing here, like we'd be more sedentary. Therefore we have less
musclature in the legs and you know, our heads would grow because because of
you know, we're using them or March would be trapped in the mind and
using the body less. That is a really a good point that never came
up. But uh, you know, that's that's the way we're headed.
Um. You know, with technology, you know, less things we have
to do, and you know, more time glued to a screen of who
knows what it will be in the future. I may actually have first first
read that that particular theory, if you want to call it, the speculation
from Willy Streeber when he's questioning himself in a communion like what could they be?
And I think he brought it up like, well what if what if
there us from some unimaginable future and this is why the Grays looked this way.
It's interesting, Yeah, yeah, it is. Who knows that?
So that line, no, the caller tried to call in um and we
still have a t shirt to give away six oh three nine six seven four
h three oz you'd like to call in And as far as um the military
technology, so you you're you talked about it, the possibility of some type
of drone M Do you think that the military is the secret projects are so
advanced, so much more advanced than we know of or can imagine, And
if so, why aren't we using it as wartime you know, threats Again,
like you said, the power of threats if we have that's a damn
good point. Um. I think that I don't know if it's generally accepted,
and it may even be a cliche at this point, but personally I
happen to accept it is that the military technology appears to be about fifteen years
ahead of what we actually you know, see publicly. And I think this
just proved that with the F one seventeen stealth fighter. When that was released
or you know, revealed if you want to say, in nineteen eighty three,
it was a lot of people were shocked by that. They were startled.
I know I was, I was like, this, what is this
thing? And then to learn that they've been developing it since uh, you
know, long long before. I mean in fact, in that the Area
fifty one book I mentioned, there are photographs of prototypes and when you like
the XR seventy one Blackbird, the long pointy ship supersonic or even hypersonic that
was on the drawing boards like in the late fifties, like incredibly advanced looking.
In fact, it still is even though it's been retired. It's an
incredibly advanced looking aircraft. It was in development a long time ago. And
see these these photos and so long ago, like wow, it's it's startling,
like we're like literally science fictional looking incredible. I'm trying to take this
caller, call are you there? Doesn't seem to be picking the same person's
trying to call in and just not seem to be picking them up. Call
are you there? Can Harrison caller. I have no idea why this's not
working. And next week is going to be the same thing because we have
to oh, by the way, for the listeners next week. Yeah,
I see the caller try to get in. I try to take him,
and it wouldn't It wouldn't work. I could just say, if you're listening,
try try again. Next week. Our show is going to be at
the same time. But it's going to be on Sunday night, um,
you know, ahead of New Year's Eve, So that would be on YouTube
once again Sunday night, six to eight pm Eastern Standard time, and that's
going to be about Star Trek. It's totally off the UFO topic, but
it should be a lot of fun. So um. Anyway, Bill,
So as far as what do you consider it's the most curious UFO case out
there that you've looked into. Well, um, I don't know most curious,
but one's still in my head all the time because I think I once
had a fighting. I was so called. They're just called referred to as
black triangles these days. Oh yes, or are they have been for a
while since the I first heard about them during the report of the Hudson Valley
River sighting. Oh yeah, Philip and Brogno, who unfortunately has I don't
know not he has not taken seriously anymore because it was found out that he
I think he faked some educational credits or something like that. But anyway,
he was co author of the book I think it's called Night Siege the Hudson
River Hudson Valleys Sightings, and that that Um, I had a sighting of
what I thought, and I still think this that it was. It was
a triangular shaped vehicle and it was dark. I saw it at night.
I had white lights in a triangular pattern, and it didn't make a lot
of noise, and that you know, I was interested in UFOs at this
point, and this was in the early nineties, and I was standing there
looking at it, and right at that point asking myself that this can't be
happening. What am I actually looking at and what I eventually this is what
I still telling myself, and I think it's probably what I saw. I
was living then in Cleveland, near Cleveland, Ohio, right and my job
was was nearby and not too far away, maybe half an hour away by
car was Acron, Ohio, where the good Year blimp comes from. And
I just I still think it was probably I was seeing some weird light arrangement
on, you know, a dirigible on a blimp that could possibly the good
Year a blimp because you know, it comes out of Acron. Was this
like moving lights or was it the study light? These these were moving and
it was a rainy night, so I you know, it was right there.
There was some confusion because on a rainy night, you can't see.
I mean, you know, if off a jet aircraft flew over, you
would know what it was because you would hear it. And I don't recall
hearing any sound at all, but I did see lights, and that really
it threw me. And it also put a bolt of frightened to me because
I'm thinking, like, right away, my emotions are going toward holy you
know, sah, I t I'm looking at an unidentified flying object. I
have to be because I couldn't hear it, And then it slowly came to
me it's got to be a derigible. But the thing is, if you've
seen a blimp fly over you you can hear that engine. It sounds like
a lawnmower. And in this case, I didn't really hear anything. I
just saw white lights in that pattern, and I wasn't what the place I
was working yet. I was like the night computer operator were doing the nightly
back up. There was no noise, you know, like traffic noise or
anything to cover it up, So I you know, that was a genuine
unknown to me, and I don't really know what I saw. I'm just
I'm just thinking it almost had to be like you know, some sort of
a dirigible or you know, the unspeakable wall. Maybe it wasn't actual you
know, extraterrestrial craft or for a while I was leaning toward the classified military
craft, but they seem to be you know, but why would they test
something potentially really dangerous or a populated area because they're liable? Right now,
what what type of rainy night was it? Was it heavy rain? Was
it light rain? It was it was drizzly, it was a it was
a like I was humid. I think it was like Joe. I think
it was July. It was a humid, rainy night. The reason I
bring that up this, uh, you know, I maybe totally off on
this, but I would think that usually the blunt wise around in neither events
or events where there's a chance of a lot of people seeing you know,
advertising or whatever it is, the lights are showing, and so I was
just thinking, on a rainy night, um you know, it's less of
a chance that you actually see something like a blimp out there. Yeah.
I couldn't agree more. And I also know that, umus, this is
another like a kind of an enthusiast enthusiasm of mind. Since a kid,
I love seeing blimps because we were always seeing them flying over our town being
so near Akron, because they were flying from from Goodyear up to the Cleveland
Stadium for baseball games and stuff and football games for coverage, you know,
camera coverage, and um. One time, one actually there there was an
abandoned airfield across the street from where I grew up on. One actually came
down there one day and we all ran over there and it was like,
you know when you're when you're a ten or eleven year old kid, You're
like, oh my god, I can't believe this. This is great.
And they had apparently they had some kind of a problem. They had to
land and it wasn't there long, but we were all over there. So
seeing that on a rainy night, yeah, it was not there. Whatever
it was, it was not there a cover of sports thing, right,
That's yeah, that's for sure. It's funny. I was talking just several
years ago. I was walking with my son and Boston, and I saw
this blimp, you know, coming over the trees, and I thought,
I'm going to get a picture of this. And you know a lot of
people will talk about, oh, well, why didn't you get that picture
of the UFO. Um, you know, everyone's walking around with the iPhone
and camera, so I can't believe that as slow as a blimp goes,
by the time I got my camera ready, it was gone. I was
gone, So I didn't even have a chance to take a picture of the
blimp. Right, right, that's an awesome sighted thing. Like, well,
okay, everybody has cameras, blah blah blah, why are we not
seeing better pictures? Well it's a good question why and and like you just
proved it. Well, okay, there's a difference between saying, Okay,
I'm gonna always have my phone on me and I'm gonna be ready when I
see something I can't describe, right, and then when you go through the
actual motions, it's not going to be like you think or like it's like
you're watching a movie. You're going to be a human being looking at something
that you're not sure what it is. Is it a terrorist thing, is
it is it extra threshal? You're going to be feeling some disease. Yeah,
I mentioned this too before when I actually had a UFO sighting that kind
of got me interested in this top the world did get me interested in this
topic, but anyway. I don't know if I would have. I didn't
have my phone on me at the time or anything like that, but I
don't think I would have even thought to take a picture because I was just
so lost in the moment and so baffled why there was again, there was
no noise like you talked about, and I was totally baffled, like how
can something move without making any noise? You know? I mean that just
uh, I would have probably not taken a picture of Ada cameras when I'm
getting at and yeah, and you know what, in view of that,
I've gone as far as okay, like let's say I'm aware there's a jet
aircraft crossing over and it's one of those it's really really high up like five
or six miles, you know, thirty or forty thousand. If y'all stand
there and look at it, I won't hear anything. But then you do.
You do eventually hear it if you're paying attention. Once it crosses your
once the sound reaches you, you do hear it. It's it's quiet,
but but something of that size, you know, imagine taking that down,
you know, tens of thousands of feet, you'd really hear it in the
fact that you know, the thing that I saw, you know, was
it couldn't have been more than several hundred feet off the ground, and I
heard nothing. And I have to say that I was really fightening by it.
I stole, don't know what it was. But I didn't jump to
you know, oh it's it's extraterrestrial. But you know, like we said
earlier, I can't possibly you know, be intellectually honest and say, you
know, it can never be you know, extra trust you, because it
could have been. I you know, I'm just personally I'm thinking, well,
no, it wasn't. It's just but I don't know what it was,
right, right. Have you ever looked into cases like the Rendels from
Forest any of that. Oh yeah, yeah, that's another interesting thing that
you know, it's often uh, you know, dumped on for all that
was psychological opts. People were being tested and calibrated, and you know,
when you read all the viewpoints, and just to be clear, I've probably
read everything that can be about that about Rendelshrom and you're getting this, you
know, some of the people who were actually there saying I think it was
I think it was a test, and then other other souldiers are saying,
no, no, I was in that forest and you know, tears that
I saw and it wasn't a you know, it wasn't a lighthouse. I
saw an actual you know, vehicle on the ground. And then you know
they're described having the weird light light effects. You know, all I can
say about that case is it's fascinating and it strikes me as really unusual that
that took place. Was it was actually on the base of very near it
that that's suspicious to me. It still is right right outside of uh left
at Eastgate, left at east Gate, right right, But it's yeah,
that that is a puzzling one. And you know, when I've talked personally
to you know, a few people, um that was involved in that,
and you know, Charles Halt his story about the thing looking like an eyeball,
that's the uh you know, like bouncing between the trees, you know,
going along and like molten lava dripping from it. That's what it looked
like. By the way, they were never able to find any of that,
like trace evidences of that, and then it bursting into five lights and
you know, events disappearing. That's what struck me kind of kind of like
a prismatic you know, it's likely he just kind of like a bursting like
wow, it's too bad, No one tour, No, it's caught that
on any kind of film. Yeah, And that's I told him an encounter
of a friend of mine who had uh I was in the in the fine
arts and antiques business. This gentleman's actually on the antiques road show um on
almost all of them. And he told me of an encounter he had were
an object looked like a box and then it burst into five lights right in
front of his eyes, you know, I mean his reaction to that,
though there's no big deal, like didn't change his life any you know.
And those are the most that's the most. Those are the most interesting sort
of you know, witnesses for lack of a better word, where it's just
described because you're probably getting an accurate descript if the person isn't freaking out,
and they weren't freaked out, they're probably describing what they actually saw. And
that that's that's what still puzzles me, is like, well, you don't
know what it was, And I guess that's what keeps me going, is
this intense curiosity, even even though I'm not a believer. I just want
to know what's going on right right, And yeah, just to follow up
on that, a military jet was flying toward that when it had burst into
lights too. You know, really it had a lot of things going for
it. It was at Amherst College back in the early nineteen eighties when that
happened, with a bunch of witnesses who was right there at the college itself.
So um, yeah, anyway it is. It keeps me going too.
And I like the fact that you talk about, um, the word
believe because a lot of people talk about that word when it comes to you
know, UFOs, the thoughts and beliefs and things like that do they do.
It's almost a default reaction. Yeah, yeah, I mean I've had
I don't know if this has happened to you in the public talking to someone,
but they'll say something along the lines were, so you actually believe in
UFOs And you know what, what do you say when someone actually says that
that to you? What do I say? Pretty much what we talked about
earlier, like, no, I don't believe in UFOs, but I do
accept that there are anomalous things in the skies and we're not sure what they
are, but we probably can find out if we do the work. But
that doesn't explain that doesn't explain away everything, because you know, the thing
isn't This is something I mentioned in the forthcoming book, Cold World, is
that we're trapped in our own you know, we're trapped in our bodies.
We're trapped in a certain viewpoint. We can't get out of it. So
it's going to color everything we see, including UFOs and so called ghosts.
And that's I mean, I hope I'm not that long winded when I talk
to people, because um, I do get asked, well, you believe
in UFOs, and like, well, it's it's undeniable. People see stuff
and they don't know what it is, and that's that's as far as they
go. I So you have to do the work. You have to be
you know, scientific about it, right right? Um? And speaking of
science, Um, science runs from this topic for the most part. Do
you think that will ever change? Uh? You know what, it's not
useful. And then this was pointed out decades ago that that attitude is not
useful. And it's it's almost as though, like you know, like the
more absurd things that seemed to happen, like like when people used to report
UFO entities, you know, bizarre looking creatures like wrapped in plastic and they
came right out of science fiction. It's almost as though the absurdity of that
is used against against people reporting things and because because then you can be discredited.
You like, you saw what you saw? What that makes no sense?
That's just not how reality works. But the thing is we don't know
how reality works exactly exactly. That's very true. Yeah, I've said a
number of times, you know, I've had a number of people from the
Rendelsson force on this show over the years. Um, it's the most convoluted
case out there when it really is, and it comes to um, you
know what different people's point of view. I mean there's uh, you know
where John Burrows thinks he had missing time but he's not sure. And someone
saw something that looked like an entity entity. Um, you know there's all
that, And there were a scattered entity reports. I forgot about that.
Yeah, and then the beams going down to the webping weapons most likely nuclear
weapons. I guess pretty well known there were nuclear weapons. I remember asking
Charles Halt that and he got offended that I would ask him a classified question.
I have to ask him, Martin, is that is that still archives
the Halt interview? Oh yes, oh yeah, yeah he's spent on a
few times. Yeah, okay, man, I've got to hear that,
yeah or those Yeah, No, that's I think the best part of that
case is the audio recording that he had running. He had the recorder running
the whole time there, and anybody can find that on YouTube. He said
that he was really surprised when that actually came out, you know, many
years ago he had the audio. I think I have heard that audio.
Yeah, and it basically says it's coming at us, or he says something
like he's coming at us or something like that, and then talks about when
the light shoots down right by his feet. And he's described that light as
not like a regular beam, a regular beam of light. It's like a
almost like a tube of light within itself or something. It's pretty strange.
And I've heard that other people have talked about beams of light that are just
totally different than a normal light beam. I've heard that. I've heard that
too, like where it's it's almost it's more like a like a plasma of
than a beam, a particle beam. Right, Yeah, it's all,
it's all. Uh, it's all really interesting. And again, like you
just said a few minutes ago, it keeps me going. You know,
the whole were work. We just passed our eighth year anniversary a few weeks
ago, and it's just, uh, I can't believe it's been that long
I've been doing the show. But it's it's just fascinating to just to hear
different things that have happened that are unexplained and whether they ever will be explained
or not. I have no idea. Well, I certainly don't, but
I think what can explain the popularity of your podcast UFO is that you're you
do give people. You're going across a spectrum of people. You're not just
you know, you're not waiting it down on one side where you know,
for instance, you're not constantly saying, oh, this can't be real,
this can't be real. And you're also not you know, too hot on.
You're you're not talking up too much the whole beliefs thing like you must
believe in as you're genuinely exploring and curious about it. Yeah, I would
say thank you, and that's right, I am going to offer one more
time that poor guy that keeps trying to call and his calls and go through.
Get that guy in there. Yeah, try calling again A six h
three nine sixty seven four h three zero. I just got a text from
my good friend Alejandro, and I don't know if it has to do with
the show or not. I'll read it in a minute, but anyway,
that line is open. Feel free to call in and you will get yourself
a free T shirt six h three nine six seven four h three zero.
And I'm also going to ask if anyone wants to post any questions up in
the chat room. We've got about five more minutes. Okay. All Alejandro
was saying is that he said for me to say Baham bugged everyone, but
I didn't say that, And he just texts saying, when you do your
shows, say hey, Merry Christmas to everyone. So Alejandro says Merry Christmas
to everyone out there. Alejandro Rojas has been on this show for I don't
know five or six years, something like four or five years anyway, doing
the UFO updates, and he's had a few changes in his life and has
been moving and hasn't been on for about a month now, so we hope
to get him back. I'm not sure if one hundred doesn't come back,
what I'm going to do? Okay, same caller is trying again. Cross
your fingers, caller, can you hear us? Caller? Caller, I
have no idea why that's not working. I think what I'm going to do.
I'm going to see if I can catch his number. I'm going to
try to see if I could call him. And I'm not sure what he's
calling from, but I know it's the same number trying to call, and
anyway, I don't want to waste airtime on that. I will probably just
try to call him after the show and get him that T shirt. I
will tell you, a caller, why don't you do this? I could
see your number briefly. I see that you're calling from New York. It
looks like a New York City number. Give me an email at Martin at
podcast ufo dot com, and I will will set you up with that T
shirt. Hopefully you had a really good question for our guests. I think
I think we're about at the end of our show here. Now, when
do you expect your next book to come out? You say, it's a
book in progress right now, um, if looking like summer twenty nineteen,
and and the name is that's the working title, that's going to be the
title of the book, but the full title is Cold World, The Horror
of the Real and by the Horror of the Real, And I mean basically,
like excuse me, reality is stripped down to it to its basic structures,
like like things things in the actual world and the way we respond to
them are it can be deeply disturbing, as disturbing as any UFO thing.
I guess I'm trying. I'm trying to show the genuine strangeness of the real
world in this book. Do you mean and looking looking okay? Do you
mean also like natural phenomena too, or just unexplained things? Yes, yes,
as also natural phenomena, mystic strangeness of that, like things things like
tornadoes and you know that's that's an entire topic on someone right there. Storms
and how strange some of the strange things that can happen during a storm,
right Um, yeah, I know, there's like earthquake, lights and uh,
you know, there's just all kinds of very strange things that I have
that people just don't have. Any idea what they are. I mean,
they were saying UFOs, but they're they're just basically, um, probably a
natural phenomena. Right. I think michaels Or I think wrote a book about
those earthquake lights. Yeah, Canadian, I think he is right? Right,
really interesting? All that? All right? Well, excellent, Well,
thanks so much. Bill, it's been a real pleasure. You're welcome.
It has been a pleasure, Martin. I'm glad. I'm glad we
finally got to speak. That's right, all right, and you have yourself
a nice Christmas, you two. Thank you very much. All right,
good night, now, good night, okay everyone, Well that's it for
the show. Now next week it's going to be Monday, I'm sorry,
Sunday night because of the New Year holiday, and we are going to have
Mark Cushman on and Vic mcnogna and they are gonna be talking about basically it
has to do with Star Trek and Vic is also he plays Captain Kirk on
the new Star Trek continues. He's going to be also on the show together,
so that should be interesting. And if you want to check out podcast
ufo dot com, you can see the membership. The membership you can listen
to the full two hour shows for free in your media player or log in
to listen that way as well. You can also support us on Patreon and
you can also see we have t shirts on all kinds of things with a
new podcast UFO logo graphic on that nicely done by Diane cash Out in Oregon.
And I think that's about it. Don't forget to check out our Facebook
page. It's podcast UFO Live shows over at Facebook, so go ahead and
check that out. We have shows, I mean, we have news up
there every day posted by Peggy, and I want to thank everyone that helps
out with the show, and that includes Evan, that includes Peggy Keith over
at the Dark Matter Digital Network, Race over at KGr Radio, Alejandro hopefully
he'll come back. If not, we'll figure something out for the news coming
up eventually. And I do want to thank you once again, and Merry
Christmas to all those who celebrate. And remember, if you're keeping your eyes
to the sky, you may just see Santa but anyway up with his reindeer
up there, but anyway, keep your eyes to the sky and talk to
you next week.