You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network and now it's time for the Paranormal
Peep Show. Hi, welcome to the Paranormal Peep Show with myself near Ward
and we're broadcasting out on the Paranormal UK Radio Network. And who have we
got tonight with us? It's my co host Ben Emlyn Jones. Ben,
how are you, hey, Neil, I'm not bad, Thank you.
Yeah, I've been had an exciting time since the last show. I went
to Weird Weekend North, which is a conference which is pretty much all about
the kind of things and you talk about on this show, and it was
very very good. One difference is you don't have to eat lard on the
show, but I did enter a lard eating competition and came second. So
yeah, something I was watching out on YouTube and Monica, my wife,
and I I said to Monica said, Ben's been eating large you want to
watch this. So we watched it and she was sort of going, oh
my god. And I actually thought you were going to win because you took
that lab with both hands and you literally were biting a bullet. But the
other guy, your your your contestant pal, he was doing it very slowly
and I thought, no, he's not going to catch up with you.
But somehow it was like the thoughts and the hair, he raced past you
and beat you. Yeah he did. Ben Fiddler, Yes, he's another
lard eating champion. He's deposed me from my title, but I'll see if
I can win it back next year. It's just a tradition started by Richard
Freeman, who has that kind of sense of humor. He likes that kind
of thing, and so I think you've had him on your show. I
believe interesting chap. Yeah, it's yeah, well it's something that was It
was actually quite difficult to do. It was a huge gluttony kind of endurance
test. I felt pretty ill afterwards actually, And it's not it's not the
sort of sport you can really practiced because, as Alan Parsters said, I'd
be dead. I'm glad to get that over with. Wow, you're a
champion for doing it at least and the fact that you you've kind of like
done it a couple of years in a row now is hats off to you.
You you know you're you are the lard eater, which is it sounds
really unhealthy. I must admit I was not something I would really want to
enter into a competition. I'm the sort of quiet guy that my inter color
and competitions, and you know, I'm not a hard man like you are
in these things, and I must help people. Sorry that Andy isn't here,
he sends his apology. He's actually not here tonight. He's actually away,
so he will hopefully be with us next month around, but Ben has
kindly agreed to step in and talking away. I went away after the last
show was recorded. I went away to the Orkney Islands to visit my daughter,
and it so happens, literally just as I arrived, I ate something
not quite the equivalent of lard, but something probably just as dangerous. I
had a dodgy cheese sandwich that I bought in him Ns airport, and about
three hours later I was thrown up on a coach virtually and by the time
I arrived in Orkney, I was full blown food poisoning from this cheese sandwich.
So all our plans for you know, driving about and going here,
there and everywhere literally had to be put on hold. I was absolutely sick
for about four days for the whole duration, and I only started to get
better when I had to leave work in head down to Edinburgh to then visit
my son. So yeah, the pitfalls of eating cheese damages. Always check
the date, folks, and I just didn't bother check in the date.
But they should have thrown it away by by all accounts, but obviously they
didn't, So thank you W Smith in the Ness Airport. Anyway, did
you enjoy the week weekend? Author's some interesting folks that you saw there talking
very much? Yes, it was great fun. I mean it was a
social event more than anything else. I think, like most of these conferences,
I got to hang out with some of the other people from the Center
of fourteen Zoology and other paranormal groups around the country, and I had a
really, really wonderful time, and the speakers were really good quality. I
don't know if I could pick a favorite. Possibly Bob Fisher, who talked
about he He gave a very very biographic autobiographical speech about his interest in weird
stuff when he was a kid, about how he fantasized about portals and things
like that, which is actually very much similar to myself. I'm of a
similar age to him, and we had the and I can sort of identify
with that I suppose the differences. He didn't really talk about any real type
evidence. Other people did though. I mean there was a discussion of ghosts
of vampires, several other things like that. Was the videos. There would
be videos on the to watch pretty soon, I think. So many thanks
to everyone who's on Glenn Valdry and his wife Kerry and who organized it and
did the catering and things like that. Excellent work, brilliant contence. In
which town do they do this? In the North. It's called Rixton mcglaze
Brook. It's actually a little village just outside Warrington, Cheshire, and it's
very easy to get to and it's a lovely remote area night near the Manchestership
Canal and you can actually get quite easy by bus from either Warrens or from
Manchester. And it's a charming hilariu and some flat in the flat valley and
it's it's really beautiful then and when the weather's nice it's it has a real
atmosphere to it, cool, excellent. Oh well, maybe you know one
day I might go up there and still you love it? Now, you
really love it? Yeah, it does sound up my street. I'll just
stick clear of the lard. But I think apart from that probably fair quite
fair, quite well. So yeah, anyone who's you know been connected with
that show, please get in touch. Maybe I've Ben do your talk at
some point. Anyway, we better crack on with our show. So those
people that are with a stute hearing and may have heard a few giggles whilst
me and Ben were talking about Lardie Cake. So that was our guests that
are waiting in the wings to join us, and that is Mark and Liz
Froud, otherwise known as the Crafty Nihilists. Hello, Mark and Liz,
how are you guys? Hello, Hi, great to say thanks for having
us us. Thank you. So whereabouts are you in the UK? Roughly
not your full address, but just rough in the UK for those that want
to stalk you from a distance at least. Well, I think the people
that listen to us know that we live in Box, a small village in
Wiltshire, so miles outside of Bath, very near all of the stone circles
and Avebury Stonehenge. And also as people on Ben's channel would have seen when
he came to stay with us and we went to the Glassyby Symposium. But
we're been around here, We're very close to Ruddlow Manor and all those potentially
alien connected underground military base. And that's on top of a deep underground military
base which could explain the super large rabbits that Miles Johnson goes on aut So
Rudlow Mannor, Yeah, that's a famous one that comes up in UFO literature
as a place that's supposedly got some UFO stories connected with it. And I
actually wonder myself. I mean, I've actually just written about it in this
book that I'm doing called True Tales of the Paranormal. And about thirteen fourteen
years ago, I was doing a talk at a pub in Hampshire and it
was about ghosts and spirits and that kind of stuff. But one of the
questioners asked me his name is Dave. He said, oh, can you
tell me that all ghosts come in sort of different shapes and sizes? And
I said, well, what do you mean exactly and he said, well,
I used to work in it's really sort of say what it was,
but he said, we used to do some sort of technology development in the
early nineteen seventies in a kind of manor house. He didn't name what it
was, but I think he indicated it was the mood as a kind of
contract or something like that, and he said it's what you would call today
as like the silicon chip, that they didn't call it that then. And
he said that he was working there with his technician buddy, and he was
working on one side of the room and his work on the other side of
the room. And from as I said, it's in an old manor house,
it could have been ruddlow manner. And he said, suddenly the room
lit up with a blue haze everywhere, and they both looked around. So
who switched that blue light on? And they looked and they both looked behind
them, and between them was this blow blue in box about the size of
a shoe box. And he said it was just floating past them silently,
down between them in this workroom they were in. He said, it went
out the door and turned right and went down the corridor, and they kind
of gulped. What the bloody hell was that? And so they went and
found their boss because they lost track of this blue box. I went and
found their boss and sort of we've just seen this blue flying box going down
the hallway sort of thing. And he said, come with me. So
he took him down to the basement where this old guy I had been working
there for years, and so these two technicians told him, yeah, we've
seen this blue float floating box. And this old guy said, yeah,
I've seen it too many a time that I've been working here. So I
write about it, but I don't call it a ghost. And I actually
said this to the guy Dave, when he told me, I said,
I don't think it's a ghost. I said, the best guess that I
could come up with at this time is perhaps it was some sort of reconnaissance
device, because it sounds like it's going around looking at people. Maybe we're
recording people in some way. Whoever it's from don't know, Russians, Chinese,
North Korea, or it could be even further afield alien tech, something
like that. I don't know for sure, but they both witnessed it.
And of course it's not going to be written down in some sort of news
to declare being in some MD kind of kind of a till they're going to
release to the public. I think stuff pretty pretty shushed because they don't want
to presumably tell people that their premises are being infiltrated in ways that they can't
stop. But yeah, yeah, and it could be rudd Low Mannet for
all intense purposes, I don't know, And imagine that a lot of these
manor houses are kind of taken over by contracting companies for the MD and places
like that. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah, Well we saw
you've quite a few places, didn't we. Yeah. Yeah, that little
thing that we saw just before lockdown. Now, I don't know if you
can remember the name of it, but then we've told you about it a
lot. So we were driving back from I've got a very sweary video on
my channel, and we were driving back from Sainsbury's and I always go down
Box, just the normal road, the eight for or whatever it is,
and I just got this impulse just to left and go through Redlow. I
don't know why. And then all of a sudden we come to a little
roundabout and it's all cordoned off and there's like hundreds of police cars, felt
like hundreds, probably a back three, and then these massive lorries. There
was about three massive lorries. Yeah, huge. It was going forever something
like what was it, Giant computers, Giant computers on these lots. Again,
it's mentioned on Ben's video. I can't remember the name of it,
but I think Ben looked it up and it was a contractor that deals with
computer hardware. But you know, obviously major scale, not just a few
laptops, and the size of these sides of these lorries were absolutely enormous.
Driving down to a real sky Net drive. Actually we've got a sky Net
drive in red Low. You captured an image of the of the logo that
the emblem of the company on the side of the vehicle, which is very
useful because I did look it up. It is an electronics firm that specializes
in military intelligence contracting, so it develops a classified technology for the national security
state. So it's exactly what you would expect to be in that area.
And indeed it is a very mysterious place. I mean it's we had I
mean, funnily enough, Rudlow Manor now appears to have been sold. And
when we went to visit it, we found it was completely open. You
could just walk in, probably not legally, but we to be American tourists.
Yeah, but we we went in there. There were some builders renovating
it, so it looks like that's been sold. So whatever was in there
appears to have moved out, it want on to new premises. But it's
a bit intriguing though, because in the windows they had photos of portraits of
Charles and Camilla and William and Kate just in the front windows. Just wondered
if there was an ann ection there, if they were planning a little of
hideaway in the in the country something because of the because of King Charles's accession.
It could have been to celebrate that. This was not long after the
king actually, well, it was just just was it before or after the
coronation? I can't remember. I think it was just before the coronation.
It was last summer, so yeah, the symposium ben because we were going
up there, So it's just after the coronation. It could be they were
just celebrating that, or it could be it could have been for another reason.
It could be they were just patriotically. It is nod thing to see
in a in a window because I think that was a sorry to intruty,
but yeah, that was another thing about Rudlough, apart from obviously the the
rumors about alien connections, but I think it was also I mean it's been
disputed, I think, but it was also claimed to be one of the
places where the Queen would go in the event of the nuclear war type thing,
and it was one of those. Yeah, there are bunkers. There
are bunkers. I mean it's not secret. There. There are some bunkers
that are publicly available and you can visit some of them. And there's Kelvidon
Hatch, which actually that's in sorry that's in I think that's in Essex somewhere,
but there's something a bit like Keldon Hatch in Wiltshire in that area and
it is indeed a nuclear bunker headquarter place for the for the state in the
event of a nuclear war, some of the massive catastrophe. Yeah, so
yeah, it could be it could be that. Yeah, it could be
that's where they're meant to go the royal family. Does that not limit them
where they can go? I mean, for instance, the Queen obviously spent
a lot of time our Moral and places like that, and now I think
Charles would presumably be doing the same sort of thing. So for them to
suddenly have to fly you know, two hours or something it is from top
of Scotland down to rud though Man or wherever it is in Wiltshire, it
would take quite a lot logistics effort where it might be perhaps there's another Corps
two in that area. I mean there's a lot of area basically around there
that Aberdeen and in Loss and places like that. I presume that they could
have sort of emergency bunkers there for very important vi P type people. Some
people think they're all connected as well, though only or don't they, because
there's railways underneath the ground leaf where we where we live, there's a railway
and there's some photos online of old abandoned bits of you know, small trains
and that sort of thing. So some people do think that these bunkers are
all connected up so they won't even have to go above ground to get their
kind of thing. Because we're also on the virtually the nearest house to Box
tunnel, which course that the longest tunnel in the country, which was isn't
barking to Brunell. It was the longest longest tunnel in the world when they
built, and that I think has has or used to have connections through to
the underground military base. So it certainly goes right underneath where that base around
Buglow, so and that's got interesting connections as well, like the I think
when they try to prove it, they said it was slightly off, but
still this idea that Brunell had designed it so that a certain time, was
it his birthday or somebody for they thought it was on his birthday that the
sunshine all the way through. It's about well, it's just under three thousand
meters long, and we were just saying, how there was a rumor that
on Isimba Kingdom, Brunell's birthday the sunshines all the way through and it's around
his birthday, so it's in April, and it's kind of a round his
birthday, not and then we were sort of saying, well, well,
why would he even have that idea. It's quite an esoteric, potentially free
Masonic thing to even consider doing. You know, it's not usually what you'd
imagine an engineer of a tunnel to be even building into his construction. And
the fact that it does a ligne at least close to his birthday, you
know, it's the sort of and then we were wondering why was it even
built around here? And you know, there's a lot of lay lines,
there's a lot of this, that and the other. And now obviously we've
got the mod it's all going on around here, and the longest tunnel in
the world at the time. Would that needed to have been built here when
we know that there's underground things here as well. It's all very I seem
to remember reading that they were saying it because it obviously cost a huge amount
of lives. About one hundred people died. It took five years to build,
about one hundred people died. Yeah, and it was this sort of
determination, right, this is where it's going to go, even though maybe
there could have been okay, slightly longer, but we could have go round
the hill and rather than through the having to put the town through a massive
Hillah. Did they say what the purpose of this tunnel was for. Oh,
well, they said it was just to get people from London to Bristol.
I think it was going to take four hours to go one hundred and
twenty miles, But that I don't. I think there's something more to it.
There's something more. Of course, you've got all these well as this
says so much esoteric type connections all around this area. But of course,
you know, maybe it shortened the journey the connection between Bath and London,
and Bath of course had caught sort of by elite sort of connections. And
we did a video a while ago going round Bath, which is just a
few miles from here and looking at all a lot of the major sites there,
the circus and the Royal Crescent designed by John with the Elder and his
son, and a lot of that was based around his surveys of Stanton Drew,
Stone Circle and Stonehenge, and again there were free masons and it was
all connected with their a lot of free masonry connections in the design and it
represents the sun and the moon possibly on the lay line as well, so
again very much a freedoms on connection. You look at it from an aerial
perspective that the Royal present and the circus in Bath actually is the shape of
a key, which not so much now but used to be a really important
symbol for freemasonry back in the day, didn't they. But the king at
the time of building the tunnel, I can't remember who it is now was
opposed because he said, we don't want the peasants traveling around the country,
so he was opposed to it apparently. But it reminds me of Surn a
little bit, this giant tunnel, because back in the day, it would
have been the navvies. They brought in thousands and thousands of navies congregated on
box and all sorts of pilavas. You know, it was a night there
to be fair back in the day when they were building it. Won't you
think about cern Now that's kind of the modern equivalent. And look how many
people died of that and it kind of makes you wonder about in that weird
Wickerman times a million opening so many times I don't even know where most of
the bodies are buried. And that leads me on one of my experiences later,
how many people have died during the building of the Sun Tunnel, which,
for those that don't know, it's this great big I'm trying to think
how you describe it, but it's a huge. It eighteen miles which separate.
Yeah, it goes over the borders of Switzerland and Italy. Is it
or France, I can't remember. It's on French Swiss border near Geneva.
It's very, very huge, so you couldn't really build this on the surface.
It's the largest instruments in the world scientific instrument ever created. So loads
of people died during the building that I wasn't aware of that. Yeah,
so have you ever seen that really weird opening ceremony where there's like a strange
goat and it's just very weird. I don't know if you've seen it,
Neil, But when they're climbing up the big aisle of the big thing that's
at the back, all these people keep falling off and they say they symbolize
all the people that died building the tunnel. I'm not actually sure how many.
I'm going to have a quick look now. I remember four or five
in that ceremony, but I'm not saying that's representative exactly how many things the
Gotta based tunnel. But that's another thing. But it is in the same
areas in Switzerland. Yeah, and with the the people that were building the
sern were also at the ceremony and part of the ceremony, and you've seen
them falling through. You see them what looks like they're falling through some kind
of port lets a screen when you see people from the goat is well.
I mean that the national symbol of Switzerland is the Ibex, which is a
type of mountain goat, but it's like the anthropomorphic goat. It has a
head, that looks a bit like Bafomet basically, and also it's doing rather
naughty things to a young lady from behind and then then from behind and there's
like like some sort of devil childer coming, but it's like some sort of
progeny has come from this rape basically by this horned creature, and this is
an opening ceremony for this great scientific I mean, that was one of the
seeing. Seeing that ceremony in the video of that, which this showed me
was one of the things that opened my eyes. Really. I was just
like, yeah, I don't even imagine there was an opening ceremony for cern
or you know, connected. No, you don't think of it, do
you know? And certainly wouldn't have thought of it like a seen from the
Wickerman on steroids. Yeah, I've never seen it. I've heard various things
alluding to it and talking about apparently nine people, nine people. It does
remind me of, you know, was that the Blue New Tunnel that we
literally when the train goes by our house shakes were that close. Was that
their kind of version of I don't know that rituals and sacrifico, sacrifices,
I don't know so much seems to have from ancient science as well, you
know underground connection. It's it's weird because I mean, this is this sort
of thing goes on to this day. For example, and there was that
ballet troupe that did a special It was actually made into a film in the
CON was called but there was this song. There was this ballet troupe who
did this performance inside the large Hadron collider and it was made this very very
sophisticated film and it involves, for example, you see someone rising up through
a black hole and emerging in a portal and things like this. There was
a strange ritual as well. Someone filmed it that took place on the above
the ground on the campus where it looked like some kind of people with gowns
on its very eyes white shut They came in gowns and mass and they did
a mock human sacrifice. There's the ballet was called simply that's right, yes,
thanks to I've just checked it. There was a strange There's other strange
things. For example, if you look at the CERN logo with some people
say it has a six six six in it. There's also a statue of
the god Shiva. Now this was presented by the Indian Nuclear Science Institute or
the which is set up by Chandra bow Is, the famous Indian physicist at
Kalie Garrbert Einstein and now in the Hindu pantheon, Shiva is one of the
most potent gods of all. His role is as the creator destroyer. So
what he besides over the turning of the Great wheel as they say in India,
which means the movement from one age to the other, which is always
was always interspersed with a period of chaos and upheaval and destruction from which a
new world emerges. And again this is this is an odd thing. I
mean, it's something you think they might put on display, maybe in the
in the entrance hall or in a glass case somewhere, But it's in pride
of place, in the open right right in front of right in front of
the carp that's the first thing you see when you go in there. And
I think that's a rather odd thing. I don't know what they're trying to
tell. They're trying to give us a message here, I don't know.
Well, there's an actual video. There's a video that somebody just took on
their phone of a strange kind of mock sacrifice in front of that. They
don't know if students mucking around or if it was actually some sort of I
seem to remember the time, there was sort of all this old know this
is fake news and that, and then in the end they say, oh,
oh yeah it was, but it was just some students, you know,
working there, working about type thing. You know. It's it was
very creepy. I mean, I mean yeah, I mean, living in
Oxford, I know that students can get up to weird stuff, but I've
never seen anything quite like that. I mean it was real. Yeah,
I mean you could see people moving forward. There was there was a mockuman
moving forward towards the statue, and there's this mock human. Sacrifices seem very
well organized. It's clear some kind of secret society. And I just thought,
that's just when you put into context all the other weird things associated with
CERN, that just made me feel a bit odd. And of course,
CERN is the reason people are concerned about this, if you excuse the pun,
is because there's it's it's been predicted that CERN might have some strange effects,
including opening portals to other worlds and things like that. In a true
alchemical sense. You know, so in a heavy industrial way, did you
say that there's been some news recently about or they've said it certain something something
has happened. They are commoner. I can't remember what they said, but
I know years ago there was that u l O. Wasn't now the unidentified
al object because in a vacuum, supposedly nothing supposed to pop up. But
apparently there was this minuscule or whatever that appeared in the vacuum proven that presumably
creation comes out of nothing. But it's a bit terrifying because they were talking
about they haven't talking about entities and things, and you know, some of
the serious scientists have even been talking about entities and portals. The stuff we
talk about is actually being mentioned by some of the some of the extra scientists,
and they trying to cover themselves in case they do create something. You
know, because the unidentified lying object was in the beam pipe of this seventeen
mile underground tunnel. Now this is a vacuum tube where the proton beam scattered
and they collide and scattered particles. Now this this, this vacuum is it's
a harder vacuum than space, than deep space. It's very very intense.
It's completely sealed off from the outside world, so how on earth could something
appear in there? But this what what this guy dtr Rook, this guy
who helped Professor Albert Rook de Rook, He said that the unidentified lying object
turns out not to be a problem for the operation. It's just something to
keep an eye on. It's in the vacuum tube. That's a problem as
long as it doesn't move and remain stable. Blood. We've got some things
in our house like that, to be honest, accident, you know.
So are they going to build another tunnel? This is what I've heard that
this isn't big enough for the job they wanted the FCC the future a future
something collider, it's gonna be even bigger. I think it's gonna be about
forty seven miles in circumference. So whatever whatever they plan to do with certain
they plan to upgrade it, or to do it again, or to expand
it, I don't know what what that will happen. Obviously, it's gonna
take a long time to build so and it'll take a cost a lot of
money. And it hasn't even started yet. So we've got a little we
don't have to worry about it just yet, but it's still it's still something
to keep an eye on, isn't it. And I mean it's been connected
the activities that's CERN have been connected to things like the Mandela effect. That
the Mandela effect didn't exist until it was identified by Fiona Broom just after CERN
began its run too in twenty ten. Before that, it didn't really was
never a thing. And then suddenly people start coming forward saying, oh,
I remember, oh, but looney tunes used to be looney tunes, didn't
it when Nelson Mandela didn't need die in ninet eighty six or something. But
you identified match stick men and match dick cats and dogs. It's much storkman
though, that's nonsense. It's really weird storkman because I'm a eighteen tunnel just
so that we can argue about looney tunes. But now, interestingly, still
talking about this this CERN tunnel, is that our friend philipkins Seller, who's
a medium as well as a UFO experiencer and things like that, he actually
was experimenting around the time that the certain thing was coming online with a ghost
box type of receiver, and he said that he got some scientists that are
deceased on the other side, and so he decided to take the opportunity to
ask them, you know, is this SERN tunnel? Is there any other
nefarious purposes it is going to be used for? And he said, I
think that's what you said. Anyway, he said the there was a pause
and then there was a kind of a laughter and he said, not an
evil laughter, but a laughter of almost sarcastic kind of tones coming back through
this ghost box from these scientists on the other side. We can't tell you
that type of thing, as if they knew something, but they didn't want
to kind of let the Earth people know about it type of thing. You
know. It's interesting. I mean, I've thought about cern. I think
obviously SURN wasn't the first sort of particle accelerate, and that there were some
others before that, but obviously this was a huge, much great scale than
previous. But I've been interested because you were talking about with wee can Northern
that the talk about which I heard about all those programs, the children's programs
and things like that around the nineteen eighties my era as well, growing up
as a child, and how often had a thought since I was doing academic
work about something drawing me to the nineteen eighties, and when I was doing
researching to the Lost Child, and programs on mainstream were like Stranger Things and
things like that which are flash back. They're set in the nineteen eighties,
and they're around all these ideas of strange things happening with reality and time.
And I wonder, sort of it was around the time of these particle accelerators
kicking off. If maybe that's all tied up. But like I think you've
you've talked before about the nineteen eighties, Ben, and I don't know,
it just seems like a time when times started to get a bit weird,
and maybe there was another sort of shift again in how they're playing around with
our perceptions of reality. Something became mechanical as well. Each the kids,
everything was mechanical. It was almost as if there was a bit of a
shift in the technology where the Internet that was also came from cern, didn't
it. I think, Yeah, that's just weird. And I I remember
that because I suppose we're the first generation of kids that we brought up with
computer games, and computer games really only became a thing when when I was
a kid. I mean when my dad's generation, there was nothing. In
the seventies, there was these atari kind of like video computer games but which
you plugged into your TV. But in the in the eighties, in the
early eighties, things like the Spectrum X Spectrum came along. I was reminiscent
talking about it on your video. Yeah, that's why I remember. I
remember very well. There was the kids. There was a huge it was
a huge thing, the computer games and everything, massive thing when we were
kids, and there were kids who had commodorees and kids who had the kids.
Some of the kids had spectrums. I had. I had a Spectrum
Plus, which is basically a Spectrum with a better keyboard. And there was
also some of the kids, usually the more middle class children, who had
BBC computers. I do remember that. Yeah, there was kind of class
divide there, but one that was called a spectrum kid like Ben. You
get the games, but I mean thinking about the BBC like you. I
went to one of those kids, it was called Joseph, and he had
a BBC Model B and he had a modem in those days, which you
actually plugged a phone handset into and he got on to use net. This
is the first time I ever went online, and I was absolutely astounded that
he could access this, this Usenet, which is a simple, primitive version
of the World Wide Web. And it was the pages. Each page took
about two minutes to load, and it just had text on it and a
couple of little pictures. But I was astounded by this. And they said,
oh, yes, I'm having a conversation with a chap in Austria.
Look, And I was like, and it was actually outserd, which it
did exist in those days. It had like some some smaller that they actually
the very first service for the early networks, these early uh in these these
pre internet kind of networks, was were there? Yes, which I think
is extraordinary, extraordinary eventuality. It's just a strange synchronicity. Yeah. I
think it was picked up by the US US military at some point. I
seem to remember. But yeah, again, all these things that were interconnected
around that same time. And also I think it was early days of satellite
TV and also as as Ben said, you know video games, com home
computers. Do remember the first guy the original satellite literally had a satellite dish
on your house and it was came and TV was just becoming and it was
really odd because like it did feel like we were having our minds expanded into
other worlds, and because, as Bob Fisher was explaining, he said,
for him, his little Spectrum plus didn't allow him access to a new world.
He described it as literally being he felt. And a lot of these
games, as simple as they were, were very very they were very immersive.
They were very absorbing, these little simple games, and kids, the
kids used to love them. I remember, and I was gonna say something
else I've forgotten now will come back to me in a minute. But I
suppose in the negative way, that's the thing. I suppose it's sort of
obviously now it's gone on to the whole other level, and it's is it
that the powers that shouldn't be that's where they're more and more want to suck
people into that virtual world to take us out of the everyday reality. So
we just plugged it in twenty four to seven to the virtual world and we
can Yeah, we already have people who's like who just are so lonely they
just talk to aibots all the time, and which is sad. Apple virtual
reality headset my son was showing me when I visited him in Edinburgh and he
said, look at this, this is where it's going now sort of thing.
And you show me these YouTube people that are reviewing these Apple like three
thousand pounds maybe or three thousand dollars and then like AI virtual reality headsets and
you're walking around and you can see the street and people, but you've got
like like desktop icons appearing in the in the vision of this thing, you
know, and you can kind of blink and you can open up your email
and thinking that's crazy. Can't you just go and enjoy life, you know,
rather than be glued to this bloody virtual world all the time. It's
just crazy. Agreed. See other level from obviously people just wandering along looking
at their phones so they're not looking around them, you know. And yeah,
it's like a website of all these people like photographed at spectacular locations like
the Grand Canyon and that, and it's like teenagers just looking at their phone.
Yeah. That was like when we went to Osland because one of my
favorite artists is Edvard Munk, and he's quite the depressive. His paintings are
very you know, melancholy, screamed the screen. Yeah that's right, that's
right. Yeah, and when we were there, So the scream, there's
three versions of it. There's like a print, a painting, and another
kind of print, and they close one off and then open it, so
you only get to see actor's scream for a short amount of time before they
put a cover over it to keep it protected. And we were just sitting
there waiting for the actual painting to come along because that's what we wanted to
see. And this guy he came in with his phone and he looked at
the screen through his phone and then walked out, and the whole of the
experience, he still never saw the painting because he viewed the whole experience through
his phone. It kind of just looked it up on the internet. And
then there was another one, a different picture I think where it was actually
the one that's called Melancholy. It's a really sad painting. And this dad
got his daughter to stand in front of this really sad painting. I was
in tears when I was looking at this this art for the first time,
because it's my favorite artist. And it got in front of this painting called
Melancholy, and they trait face. I mean, postmodernism gone mad. I
was quite an awful trivialization philistines, honestly total philistines. I just I wanted
to ask you, guys, because I mean, I've known you a long
time, and I don't I can't remember if we ever discussed this privately.
But of course are there's a two of you. Listen, Marth and you
are a couple. You're you're marriage and your your spouses, and but you
have the shared identity this stelt sort of this stut manifestation of the craft.
We always talk to you about it rather than them. I tend to say
them and something I say it. But where did that come from? And
the name and the idea? Where did that come from? Well? I
have an Etsy shop. It doesn't have many things for sale on it at
the moment, and I wanted a name for my Etsy shop. Now I'm
quite out of the two of us. I'm the glass half empty, whereas
Marks the glass half full. So I quite enjoy nihilistic humor. And because
I can be down in the dance quite a lot, so to get me
out of being down in the dumps, I've always turned to art and creating
and creativity, and I used to make quite humorous nihilistic cards to sell it,
used to make me laugh, used to cheer me up, used to
get me out of the doldrums. And so I named my shop the Crafty
Nihilist and my logo is like a yin yang, so it's the dark and
the light and it's joined together in the middle by what I tried to make
it look like stitches because that was when I was in my embroidery phase.
So it sort of symbolizes craftiness, the art that can that brings me personally
out of the doldrums. But then we got onto YouTube and it kind of
works because we're a little bit Mark on YouTube calls himself the less nihilistic Mark,
but kind of that version of the kind, so we're ying yang,
well, ya ying yang. So it kind of worked. But it did
start off because I needed a name for my Etsy shop at one stage when
I had longer hair on my head. When we first got together, I
thought we should have a sort of a clothing range. Hippie in goth yeah,
golf and hippie. Yeah. Yeah. It started off. You know,
I was quite I can be quite nihilistic sometimes and creativity just gets me
out of that frame of mind. That's where it started, but then this
kind of works. Well you collaborated, like, for example, Marks written
the book. I've read the book actually, and it's this kind of poetic
kind of novel type story. But you've done the cover art list and it's
and it works quite well that way. We're a good combination. Thank you.
You've actually done a book of poetry, but we haven't got it published.
Let well, we've both done the poetry and the words, so we're
hoping to do more. Yeah, and I've done a few bits of art
with it. But thank you Ben for mentioning the book in all good bookshops.
It's not in all good book jobs, but it's on bloodoo dot com
called the individual in any bad bookshops. But but yeah, just it's great
to have that combination. I think we compliment each other well, is more
on the visual side and more on the words as well. As you are
the one that kind of if I understood this right from your emails that you
were more into all the kind of alternative thinking, the richer d halls,
the UFOs, paranormal maybe and then Mark kind of slowly kind of came around
to it. Is that right? Yeah, Yeah, So I've been into
it for years, but it was kind of entertainment, you know. It
was just it's never gonna happen in my lifetime. I just used to do
you remember when David like us to have all those videos. It was open
your mind, you remember with that song on and I just bloody love it.
But I wasn't expecting it to start happening in my lifetime. So when
I met Ben, when I met Ben Fred slip there, I think I
should I think I should leave now coming now. Yeah, I met Mark.
He was a right lefty, woky, right lefty. It was a
right lefty wokey. We used to have not arguments, but we did have
discussions, debates. But because every time I used to say global warman is
a load of rubber, she'd call me Donald Trump or that didn't go down.
I've learned, I've learned. But you've got better hair than him.
I mean, yeah, I mean totally. I will one hundred percent accept
really, and I think it's I think I could be the positive of a
way because you see all these things where the sort of wil Sanders type of
Oh. I used to be a conspiracy theorist, but I've I've come out
of the I've woken up now from the stupidity and seem sense and it's like,
well, I'm the other way around, you know. I've I used
to be a woke liberal and now I realized and saw a sense and knew
that I was looking at ridiculous ideas and the wrong way. And now I've
realized a much better way of seeing the world. You know. But I
think I always had I always had an interest in all belief that there was
more to life than what the material world that you could see and feel.
And you know, when I was a kid like Ben, you know,
I used to get the Unexplained magazine. Has had an interest in sort of
I suppose you could call it esoteric phenomenon, and it came out and sort
of liking science fiction and that sort of thing. But I guess politically I
did get sucked down into that route. I think it's how they do it.
It's you know, they put things out to appeal to people, and
they think, oh, we don't like the system because the system is wrong
and it's controlled by powerful people, so we need to do something to change
it. So they sort of present this opposition or you know, be a
left winger then, because you're against all these powerful, rich elites. But
you sort of, as I've come to realize, it's sort of it's all
the game that they're playing, both sides off against each other, and you
could, yeah, just get caught up with false, false, sort of
stories about how the game is being played and these sort of left hight paradigm
in politics and things like that. So, yeah, just listening to things
with Liz. It was Richard haw thing. I made you watch the Maddie
mccamn think that was one of the big ones because by academic book which could
get properly published, was was around the lost child and it was English literature
was my thing that I did at university. So it was looking at lost
children and how prevalent they are in writing, going back to fairy tales and
beyond that and up to a modern time. You know, mentioned stranger things.
So the Motherlie McCann case was and also she was supposedly abducted on my
birthday how many years years ago? It was so yeah, looking at Richard
D. Hall's Yeah, looking at Richard D. Hall's videos, the way
he forensically brilliantly dissected the you know, the the lies of what had been
said, and he went into such detail and it was it was like,
well, you know this is this is certainly not some crack pop that's just
making something up off the top of the head. You know. He proved
it in such a way that you could see that the official narrative was definitely
not as they said it was. And it's one of those things you sort
of think, oh, well that's they were lying about that, So what
other things are they lying about? And yeah, there was certain that was
one of the big ones, which d Hall and Madeline macn But also I
said, that's certain opening ceremony just blew me away. But yeah, certain
things and just over time, something's harder than others to sort of it is
that thing of trying to sort of break down beliefs you've had for a long
time. But rexit was another one one that you sucked me back in,
honestly. But but yeah, but you know, I've seen better on my
my ways. It's good to see both sides of things, I suppose.
Yeah, definitely I tried to do that. I think interesting by the way
that I mean obviously that we're we are definitely in the sense you're quite a
recent convert mark and you were married to someone who sort of like that helped
you see that way. And everyone has their sort of like how I got
red pilled story? But what one thing I think most one thing I noticed
we tend to have in common, And it's not universal that we in terms
of age, we tend to be of the generation late generator, late gen
X, early millennial. And maybe it is to do with the influence sort
of like the rise of technology and electronics as childhoods. Then of course,
when you know, our early adulthood was dominated by what I might call a
golden age of of woo woo. The X Files TV series, which is
the nearest thing we have to creation mythology basically was a big hit on TV.
And then of course it was also at that same time there was the
early Internet. Well, the Worldwide Web started become popular in the in the
nineties and it sort of took over from where the earlier networks sort of left
off. And so I think that may be the reason why so many of
us are of this kind of age group. I mean, obviously they're older,
they're older conspiracy conspiracy theories, so they were younger ones, but generally
we tend to be the sort of age group, and I think I'm the
older ones talked about that. I'm thinking, oh my god, that's like
I was working when you you kids were watching you know, X files or
something like. You know, I grew up with portals of mister Ben.
You know, mister Ben my first introduction to Portals reality is, didn't he
mentioned? It's mentioned that when you're talking about the chaps. I'm sorry forget
his name Fisher and you said, oh, what about mister Bens. Ben
was the first portal guy that I knew. And for those that don't know
who mister Ben is, check it out on YouTube. Even if it was
just for the themes. He used to come back with the ports, didn't
He always used to bring something to come back, something to remember the adventure
by. But I noticed that he'd always Chinese costumes each week or each episode,
and he never used to hire them or pay for them. The guy
and then he free of costume and come back and no money was exchanged.
You know, what's the guy? What was it? Mister Ben had the
bowler hat I think yeah, and he used to take it off and then
the costume of magically appear over him. So the Egyptian connection or you know,
make around. Yeah, so obviously the creative mister Ben had some heteric
knowledge. Roger Roger Hark is one of the I think one of the greatstic
authors. Yeah, did you know he used to do Mister Ben. Maybe
it's wrong Google times, but you know it's it was a great series.
I mean I used to love it and it was very interesting, and it
did have this idea of parallel world and things like that. And maybe when
you're talking about all these other theories been online, like Jamie and the Magic
Torch, Yes, that was a that was another when he shined the torch
and he would go down this slide and he find himself in another world.
And this is a recurring theme in all all through history and in more recent
fiction we find it. We mentioned Stranger Things, which is a more recent
series which has basically the same kind of plot and involves like missing children as
well and experiments and there's that young girl they find who has with the short
hair, who's been in a laboratory horrible and things like that. Yeah,
and it's that again ties in with I think with the X Files and things
like that. So I do find it an extraordinary weird thing. I mean,
Bob Fisher mentioned this. This goes back into times of ancient mythology like
it. There's this cave where in Ireland where you go to the tiernan og
the the the land where there's a kind of spiritual beings is like a parallel
universe. But there's these spiritual beings is we we of course in we also
have legends of the spirit world or heaven and things like that. And the
cave to Tian and Oak by the way, you can visit. It's in
County Down in Northern Ireland. If you go in there, apparently you and
get the tiann and Oak. But I know a few people actually calling the
Bob people have gone into it and they've not found Tiann and Oag. But
it's according to what Irish is. The in Irish mythology is the land of
the spirits She It's spelled it's spelled the She, which is the spirits spiritual
beings. Yeah, that's where the gen is supposed to hang out in caves.
She and the Gina very similar. Interesting. In my research recently,
I've been looking into Pan and the mythology of Pan, and there's a guy
part of Findhorn Foundation was assisted by this man who was a scientist called Rock
something. I forget his name, but he encountered this little thorn creature in
Edinburgh who followed him or he followed it or something I can't quite remember.
And then a month later, this same guy on one of the western arms
of Scotland encountered Pan with another chap and he said he grew out of the
ground like as a monk, then revealed his hood and he was over twenty
five foot tall, and he said, I am Pan. Blah blah blah
blah. You know. And apparently when I was reading up on Pan,
that's where the word panic comes from, because it used to be still fear
into people the sight of seeing Pan. Hence the word panic, which I
thought was very interesting. Talk about synchronicity. I don't know if you ever
listened to Ed from the Outer Light. He's also got a mirror world.
He's got lots of different YouTube because he keeps getting kicked off. He's a
New Zealand guy and he's great and this is such a coincidence, and he
stumbled across. He loves a half hot mum. He loves really old British
comedies. He loves it. He's really nostalgic. And at the end of
two of his recent videos, he played whispering grass, who's a singer?
Oh this and dont honestly, well, he played that and it made me
a little bit tearful because it's so beautiful and you kind of forget we've got
all this nonsense music. Now anyway, that's nothing to do with what I'm
talking about, but it's a real coincidence because he was talking about where did
some one of his viewers said, oh, that's where we get the saying
grass or to grasp somebody up because of this song whispering grass. Well,
we don't know that. And he was looking into it because of this,
and he said that one of the maybe we get it from Pan, the
myth of Pan, because apparently Pan fell in love with a beautiful woman and
I don't know, I only heard it this morning. That's what I Mean's
such a coincidence, how you're talking about Pam and the beautiful woman was for
some reason turned into reeds of grass, and you could and you could hear
her singing, or when the reeds moved, you could hear her singing.
So that's why you made his pan pipes out of these reads. It's just
a synchronicity, just a little synchronicity. You're bringing up Pan, And I
literally just learned that this morning. Very fascinating as well. Another one of
my things from academic times is about language and what lies within it, and
it's so it's fascinating. I didn't know that about Pan and Panic. So
it's all those connections of language and mythology and the supernaturals. There's some of
these mysterious spiritual things within words, you know, that hidden inside them and
hidden me things. You know. It's quiet, Yeah, yeah, I
mean yeah. I've been sort of going through through my notes and things methodically
trying to basically improve this book that I've got called True Tales of the Paranormal.
And so this is why I came across it recently about the Panic thing,
which I thought added greatly to it. But the original tale sprung from
a story that told me on an aeroplane, an easy jet plane going to
Spain about fifteen years ago now, and he was an Iranian, but he
said he was an architect, but he lives in London, but he said,
I'm from Persha. Originally, he says, I prefer it to call
it Persha, but you know today as Iran. And so he said,
what do you do. I showed him some of my photographs of my artwork
fairy beans and oh, your artwork is done in by the way, Neil,
you're thank you very much, thank you, very good, thank you.
So I showed him all the artwork common phone and I ran this fairy
museum at the time in Orkney Island, Scotland, hence the Orkney visit earlier
that I mentioned about. And so I said, what do you do?
And he said, well, I'm an architect and I'm going out to Spain
to check on the properties that I've been developing. So I said, oh,
that's that's nice. So I thought I'd start talking about some of the
weird fairy stories that I've come across, because at the round about that time,
I've been watching this DVD called The Fairy Faith by a Canadian filmmaker called
John Walker. And in The Fairy Faith they interviewed this Glaswegian builder called Steve
o'dale and he had gone to this fairy hill somewhere in the Candorms, I
think, in Scotland, on holiday in about nineteen ninety seven, we think
it is. And he said that he was just looking at the rainbow forming
over the valley and thinking what a lovely view it was, because it just
stopped raining and the sun was coming out from behind the clouds and the rainbows
forming over the valley, and he thought, oh, that's absolutely But he
said, the whole time his peripheral vision of something down by his feet,
and it was annoying him. But he thought, now I'm going to carry
on looking at this lovely view opening up before me, with this beautiful panorama
of the valley. But all the time that annoying thing was down by his
feet. So he thought, what is that? And you see what it
was? And he said he saw this woman about sort of so high it
maybe a meter made a cuple of feet and I'm quite sure, brown leathery
looking skin, and a sort of a small brown hat pointing up. And
he said she had an old pair of sort of sheep shears. And he
said that she was cutting around the sole of his shoe. And he said,
where his shadow extended in the afternoon sun, where his shadow stopped,
he said, was the male equivalent of this brown being lady, probably a
similar height. And he said that he was rolling up this guy's shadow like
paper in the creeps. Yeah, rolling out the shadowy paper. And he
said, he said he didn't know what to think. Of course, you
don't, do you say I as he looked at the pot, and he
said, they looked at each other in absolute surprise, thinking, oh my
god, he can see us, and he went they vanished, and he
said, I dread to think what would have happened had I not seen them?
And it devides kind of physics about a their disappearance from start. Physics
doesn't allow that kind of thing in conventional physics. But when you're rolling up
a shadow anyway, that's even beyond that. And maybe that is the physics.
And he just happened to Yeah, maybe he was in their dimension.
I thought about the risk. I told this to the the Iranian guy on
the plane with me, and that's what I'm going to lead to. But
I'll just tell you this before we get to the Ranian guy on the plane,
because he tells me an equally interesting story. Well are they gone?
Are you? We can still see you? But we've still okay, that's
that's right. But as long as you can steal him, that's fine.
So basically I was analyzing this store and thinking, okay, it just rained
and the sun had started to come out, which then I thought about it.
I thought those begins were there to steal his shadow. That shadow wouldn't
have formed until the sun had come out and made a nice crisp shadow on
the ground. So therefore I think there must have been laying in wait somewhere,
waiting for that sun to come out, waiting for that rainbow, and
then striking literally while the iron is hot. And you don't talk about iron
to berries because they don't like it. But I told this. I told
this story to the guy on the plane with me, and I said,
oh, I saw this really freaky, you know story, and he sort
of said, oh, that's very interesting. Pun Up, he kind of
decided that maybe I should be the guy to tell because he said many years
ago, when he was in Iran, he was conscripted into the Iranian Army,
and I had put this probably about the mid mid seventies, maybe early
eighties, not really sure. He never told me the date, but he
said he was patrolling the streets at the night with an army buddy he said,
a sandstorm kicked up one night, and he said they both decided to
seek shelter in a mosque. So they went into this mosque, and he
said to his army buddy, right, you lay down and go to sleep.
And you know, you take your shoes off in a mosque, by
the way, and for those that don't know, so they all took their
shoes off, and he said to his body, you lay down and go
to sleep, and I'll sit by the wall, and I've got the gun,
and I'll keep an eye out for any trouble. So he goes okay,
and this guy I called him Hussein. He said, he sat with
his back to the wall with his gun. And now how hard he tried
to stay awake, he kept falling asleep, and he nodded off and thought,
oh, I must wake up. I must wake up. And he
nodded off again, and he said, oh my god, I must wake
up. I must wake up. And for three times he nodded off and
woke up. And then the third time he woke up, he was suddenly
startled to see two people crouching down looking at his feet and looking at his
friend's feet. It was a lady and it's also a young girl who he
thought to be about eight nine or ten. And they were both crouching down,
staring intently at their feet, and he thought, where the hell did
these people come from? So he said he started to press his elbow on
his mate's chest to try and wake him up surreptitiously. And he said,
no matter how hard he pressed on his mate's chest with his elbow, his
mate waking up. So Hussein said, I thought I was going to make
her run for it, he said, And I don't understand why he was
going to make a run for it, because he was the guy with a
gun. So he said, he started to wrap the strap of the gun
around him so it went swing as he ran. And he said that must
have alerted this lady because she suddenly looked up from looking at his feet and
looked at him in the eye. And he said, as soon as I
stared at her in the eye and we made eye contact, he said,
I instantly knew that she was not from this world. There was something that
just clicked. I know that she's not from this world. And he said
with that, they both stood up and turned and walked away. He said,
now as they walked away. He said he noticed they both had cloven
hoofed feet, and they vanished into the wall of the mosque. And when
he told me that, when he told me that, that sent shiver up
and down my spine, I thought, oh my god. Wow, the
connection with the other story, it's amazing. Yah. Yeah, yeah,
And it makes you wonder that again, where these legends come from. So
the whole idea of that these clothing hoof beings that we have in legends,
maybe they're to them. And the fact that it's come through the wall of
a moss, which is a place where you prayer, you might send out
energy or create kind of thought bombs or something with your mind, and it
creates like a portal. I don't know, but something happened to them to
come through and kind of engage with him to a certain extent. And the
weird thing is about it. You kind of realize now why they were staring
at their feet, because to them, the human feet were the oddity.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. I think we're about to
take a break here now on the Paranormal Peep Show. So we've just come
past the hour, and so we're talking to the crafty Nihilists. That's Mark
and Liz Froud and we have our guest host presenter which is ben Emlyn Jones.
So join us in Part two. Stay tuned for more of the interesting
chat about all things weird and strange on the Paranormal Peep Show. In just
a minute, the day's the best day made life listening to the Paranormal UK
readio Network. Join Andrew o' neil every month on the Paranoral Peep Show,
part of the Paranoral UK Radio Network for fun, frolics and lots of information
about weird stuff, UFOs, ghosts and things that go bump in the night
and everything associated with them. Fascinating guests, fascinating talk, fascinating information.
Hi, welcome to para more peep Show. The part two section that is
This is Neil Ward and I'm enjoyed with ben Emlyn Jones and we've also got
Marke and Liz Froud otherwise known as the Crafty nine List. So in part
one we were talking about all things strange, but that is the thing.
We are a strange show, so we talk about strange things like weird ghosts
and cern projects and weird tunnels. And now we're going to move on to
more about Mark and Lizz's personal experiences of the paranormal. So, guys,
I know you've both talked about it in emails to me about your kind of
weird ghost of the experiences where you've kind of felt yourself frozen and you've seen
beans in the room. I think, if I'm I'm saying correctly, you
both had those experiences yourself, but on separate occasions. Yeah, so you've
had a couple, aren't you, babe. Yeah, probably less than Liz.
I'd count myself maybe as being a less intuitive person than Liz. But
before I met her, I did have the experience. I think it was
one of these times I think I was a bit stressed. It was when
I was in exams or something like that university, something that seemed to be
quite being quite stressed, and it was sort of a classic I was lying
in bed, and I don't think I was asleep dreaming. I think I
was in a sort of semi conscious or almost a dark figure standing at the
at the bed, and it seemed very real and I certainly had a moment
of fear, and I felt this sensation as if it was going to drag
it drag me towards him or towards it, but it was only a very
brief experience, and I just sort of said to myself, you're not real,
You're the real you know, get out of my head type thing,
and it just went. And you know, so it was one of these
things that I almost forgot about, but it certainly did seem very real,
and it certainly was more than a dream. But you know, it's got
quite a rare experience for me. And then just just not that long ago,
when I was with Liz and I just sort of went to sort of
turn over to sort of say something to her and just study out the corner
of my eyes, is that there was a dark just to the side of
me that was turning at the same time as me and just almost like well
literally shadowing me. And again it was a blink of the eye and it
was gone. But it was just very unsettling, this idea of something else,
some other level of reality. You know, did you get any kind
of impressions from that second experience of the I don't know you felt any telepathic
communication there or anything. No, nothing like that. It was really very
much exactly like a blink of an eye. But I must say my most
esoteric experience, which I again I sort of folded my memory banks. But
it wasn't long after me and this got together, but we'd been to Avebury
and we came back to the house and we were just sort of, I
suppose, trying to be a bit spiritual and get candle lights in and sort
of almost sort of charming or trying to speak in tongue sort of thing.
And it's something I've never done before, but it was trying to maybe open
this up inside of me because I was saying that and I believed that there
was more than the material. I hadn't actually felt it, and something came
through and it was like it wasn't. I just started how he's like a
dog just sort of almost like arcing at the moon type thing, and it
was again it wasn't. It was very short lived, and then I was
just sort of panting it just sort of to my breath away. And we
had a dog at the time, departed Frodo, bless him, and he
sort of jumped up and was looking at me like a another another dog that
I had sort of turned into. It was it was just again a very
brief experience. But it was like, I can't say that I felt something
coming through me or anything like that, but I just suddenly started howling like
a dog. Just it. Something made me do that, which never had
anything Mark Mark. That's not I'm not used to howling like a dog.
If I started doing that, you'd be like, it's something I guess.
I I don't know what it is. Although again, even before my more
recent awakeness, I did believe that there was more to life, and I
was certainly interested in the paranormal. So it wasn't that I was skeptical or
disputed that that was ever a thing, but I didn't intuitively feel it.
We sort of put it into the academic brain and maybe overthinking, didn't we.
Yeah, maybe that is it, and maybe just a fear of letting
go, you know, whether that's emotionally or spirit let me go in that
moment. Yeah, And then that happened, isn't it. Yeah? And
partly as I say, we'd been to abury and I don't know, it
was just an emotional time and and go into a new phase of my life,
I suppose with Liz and something, things were opening up very you know,
in a different ways. Spiritually and emotionally and intellectually as well, but
just a different kind of intellect. You know, you need to it's important
to have those different sides too, you know, rather than just reading something
in a book, to actually get a personal connection with something that's something like,
Yeah, I mean you could see it from all sorts of angles.
You might psychoanalysts might see it as some sort of ole. Yeah, you're
opening up another aspect of the self, the subconscious, the ego has created
a personality or something like that. All these weird theories that come out with
but whatever it is, it's not your everyday thinking, acting self that you
know, walks and talks and does the things that you need to do.
But it's also like in the dream part of ourselves. When we're in a
dream, we're not really unless you're one of those clever people that can do
the waking within a dream thing, you know, the lucid dream. I've
occasionally stumbled into it, into that kind of thing. But you know,
when you're in a dream, you're completely different scenario, walking and talking and
meet people from your distant past, not even thinking about the fact that you
don't see these people anymore. But they're popping up in dreams as a character,
you're interacting with them, and you accept that when you wake up and
you look back at your dream and self, well, that's just a dream.
But it's still an acknowledgement. It's still a characterization of yourself in some
part, although it's framed on the inner network of your being rather than the
outer network of your being. But it's still a very valid kind of personality.
If you like that constructs itself, even if it's on a temporary basis,
to navigate its way around the psycho your mind. If you like,
you know, doing your shadow work, think, yeah, so what's the
shadow work? Is this where you face it's the darker side of yourself in
some sort of Freudian world or something. Yeah, well it's more yunni and
than Freudian. But have you ever seen the film Fight Club? No?
I haven't. No, Oh, Neil, you need to watch that.
That is BA basically all about somebody doing their shadow work. I can't actually
tell you because it's big spoiler alert. But yeah, he confronts his shadow,
I would say, And I think we're all constantly trying to do that.
Well, maybe some of us are repressing it. But I think if
you repress it, maybe that is when it comes out potentially this sceral way
like that like it did for Mark. Maybe I don't know, Yeah,
yeah, I think so. So much of what we you know, we've
talked to recently on our channel about it seems like with the way they're doing
the modern world with the media and that it's like they're making the shadow the
hero. And you've got so much of these things that are in Hollywood and
TV, Internet, and it's it's making the dark side as if that is
the thing to be admired and the way to be. But that to me
is a perversion of twisted idea of doing your shadow work is actually making the
shadow take over. So the whole you know, when we were talking about,
well, the crafty nihilist is kind of me doing a shadow work.
It's accepting that nihilistic part of me and kind of integrating it in a positive
way, like with my creativity. So the light in the dark, but
in our logo it's balanced. But like Mark says, you know, Superman
used to be a good guy. Batman used to be a good guys kind
of a bit of a scary bad guy. These days, you know,
and it's almost like, Okay, we've integrated the shadow. I know,
let's make the shadow a hero, and it's not supposed to be like that's
supposed to be an integration of both light and dark. In my opinion,
yeah, absolutely, as far as you're as far as where you describe the
beginning mark, this I think is a very obvious case of sleep paralysis.
I know that because I experienced it too. I actually I think I have
spiritual sleep prices, probably about maybe once a fortnight. It's quite commone.
Usually when I'm in a shallow sleep, like maybe if I wake up then
in the morning and go back to sleep for a little bit before my love
goes excuse me, don't go into it now, Ben, No, But
I often I'll wake up and I am like completely completely I can't move tall.
I'm just completely paralyzed apart from my eyes. Ben, you get a
little bit. No, it's about it, No, because it's something I've
had my whole life. I know people who experience it just like it's suddenly
it's something something happens spontaneously, just a one off in their life, and
it's it's terrifying for those people. But for me, I know what to
do. I just I just lie there for a bit and eventually wears off.
And while I'm I'm in sleeper and I just like hope my eyes look
around me and everything just looks as it does normally. But to every short
it's only happened a handful of times. I do see beings in the room
with me. One of them is a is a is a humanoid being with
a bleak black cowl like the Ring raiths in The Lord of the Ring.
And it just stood by my bed and just looked him. I couldn't see
his face because it was covered in this hood, but I got the sense
it was just standing there looking at me. There's another instance where I saw
a strange, old Chinese looking woman with a big, big buns in her
hair and like pins in the buns, and who saw wearing a scruffy blue
dress, and she was leaning over like that and shivering and all like that.
You know. Funnily enough, I was actually lying it. I was
lying in this bed. It was daytime, and I was lying in the
bed, and my partner was beside me, and my partner of the time
was beside me, and I remember I was lying there with sleep passes,
but I just managed to get words out to alert her, saying so so
true, like that I could I could hear myself like calling her name and
what Hannimal was. I eventually woke up and the appression disappeared. As soon
as I woke up and I asked Sue, I said that, did you
hear me calling you? She's no, you were completely silent. You were
asleep. The the strange thing about sleep paralysis is that it's it's the skeptic
explanation is simply an effect of our brain, because we do actually have a
mechanism that paralyzes our bodies. A chemical is released by the brain that paralyzes
our bodies when we're asleep. If we didn't do that, we'd act out
our dreams. So people exact where that chemical fails. That's when you get
somnambulism, people walking in their sleep. Now I used to agree with that,
No, it's good, that's sascaria, But yeah I was, But
I was like, just what you'll find is that the skeptics say, well,
this is just basically a dream. You are dreaming what you experienced,
your sleep paralysis. Your eyes can open but you see, you're still dreaming,
and that's what you see. You see the beings. But the strange
thing is these beings you get that the cow figure, the hat man.
They're the big dark, showy man with a big broad brimmed hat. The
old Hag who's an incredibly ugly and foul, nasty old woman with a big
scruffy dress and very ugly ragged dressed, point big broad brind pointed hat,
which is interestingly as the Hollywood meme of the witch suse I find very interesting
in films like Wisdom was As, I find very interesting that one is actually
sometimes quite violent. It'll sit on you and try to suffocate you, sometimes
sexually abuse you, things like that. Most of them, you know,
sometimes some of them are quite nasty, these beings. But if they're dreams,
you got to ask yourself the question is you know these these are not
figures that appear in most people's dreams all the time. Yet they do appear
very regularly onong people who are sleep paralysis. They also appear from people of
very very different racial, cultural, and geobiographic backgrounds. So basically everyone from
Nottinghaman to Namibia, from Arizona to Australia will tend to see the same beings
when they're in a sleep paracess situation. There's only two explanations therefore. The
first one is that our brained, every human brain in the world, despite
you know, very very different backgrounds, Like I said, in terms of
a race, culture, geography, environment, every single human brain on Earth
is hardwire to produce certain images under certain states of consciousness, which is in
South takes fantastic explanation. The only other alternative is what people are seeing is
objectively real. It's not coming from inside our brains. It's coming from outside
our brains, and that to me makes more sense. It's much more likely,
which is it's an extraordinary concept, but I think it's quite likely it
is true. It's interesting because so that's something Mark and I have in common.
I'm interested about the idea about there being a connection that people share,
humanity shares because I'm interested in this idea that the sort of Joseph Campbell idea
of the common connections of mythologies from all different disparate cultures and across you know,
centuries all over the world, where they've got these bithhological themes that go
that that seem to follow all these different different cultures have these same themes in
their stories, so that I'm wondering that you know the same thing with these
images that are in sweep paralysis and that sort of thing, whether there is
some sort of common links you know, and where that where that comes from?
I don't know where, but but it could because you would say the
same. The same actually applies to aliens actually the beings people meet who when
the experienced alien abductions. The difference being is the the the extra trashles clearly
have an obvious physical presence. They leave footprints behind, things like that.
They kind of they leave behind a corpse when they die, other things like
that. But usually you've got the same people from right across the world.
Regardless of your which country you come from, you tend to see the same
beings when you have a et concept. M now with with you talking about
the the old hag and happens to people all across the world. I'm just
wondering, for instance, if you are an old hag, like in your
eighties and you're having a dream, do you still have your hag? It's
scared because it might be like, oh, it's my sister. Yeah,
slightly confusing, you know you do? Yeah, you don't know good today,
do you? You know? I don't find it fascinating actually where Hollywood
gets his ideas from, because this is the this is the classic Hollywood witch,
and you get it in all all, but not just Wizard of Ours.
It appears in other films. It appears in the in the cartoons of
various MGM cartoons and things like that, and the Warner Brothers cartoons. The
horrible old lady, ragged dress, ugly line, crooked face, big broad
brimmed hats. Where as they go next door. I'm sure we all know
someone really like that. But these are the hag tends to be associated with
very unpleasant experiences now, people who have sleep prices. So I mean,
I'm lucky. I've never felt threatened by any of the beings I'm meeting my
sleep prialysis. But other people are creatures will come and sit on you.
There's this famous painting, it's called the Nightmare. Actual, it's the famous
painting a woman lying in bed and there's this horrible, hunched creature sitting on
top of her chest. And I mean, well she saw lying in bed,
but as our heads hanging off like that, which you're going to sleep
in that position. You're asking for troubles. But is that who who made
it? Who made painting? Maybe that's a that's a often happens. People
who who often report the hag will come and sit on their chests and the
hag is will have trouble breathing. I start gasping. The Hag's very heavy.
Also that this is the experiences have been very very Yeah, I get
sweet paralysis, but I get absolutely terrifying sleep paralysis. But it's really interesting.
I don't mean to interrupt you, Ben, do you want to I'm
just going to say this creacial sometimes sometimes the or sexual abuse as well.
This crusure will essentially rape you. I mean, whether you're a woman or
a man. She's not fussy, it's it's these are kind of thing I
don't want you want to give any details of your experiences. List just understandable
she does. So I've had three. I've had loads of sleep paralysis,
but there's been three really terrified, really terrifying ones. So the first one
kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier and where I lived,
so Box Tunnel, so many years ago, when I was with my ex
husband and the kids were little. We're talking twenty odd years ago. We
bought a new tent, like an eight man tent because we're going to go
camping. So we set it up in the garden in box, which is
right next to is this closers. You can get to box tunnel as you'd
want to get to be honest, And so we set the tent up like
you do, just to see if you can set it up. And then
the kids wanted to sleep near that night, so me and my ex husband
stepped in one of the pods, the kids slept in one of the other
pods, and you know, and that's when I had a sleep paralysis.
Like you're talking about, Ben, it was very personal in nature, so
read into that what you will. But it wasn't an old hag. It
was a bloke. And I would have described it as a navvy and without
remembering that that's who came over and built the tunnels, all these navvies,
because we used to hear hobnail boots when there was nobody there going around our
house because where I live now would have been the field where they would set
up camp. Literally, we used to find clay pipes in our garden when
we'd dig up the garden that used to belong to the Nabbes. And it
was only when I was researching it a little bit later that I found out,
like I said earlier, that the hundreds of these Nabbys were killed building
this tunnel and nobody knows where they were buried. So yeah, that was
absolutely terrifying. That was one that I had. I had another one which
not very long ago, and that was very strange. We've got a school
clock, a school bell that chimes on the hour, but it always stops
at ten o'clock. So I thought I was hearing this this church clock.
It woke me up and I thought, why is it ringing past ten o'clock.
It's too late for it to be ringing past ten o'clock was going on,
So I was in my dream and I woke up and all the time
was wrong. So my kids were there, but Connor was one age,
Caleb was the other age, and my mum was still alive. Mark was
here when he shouldn't have been when the kids were little, and they were
all looking out the window and waking us up and like, what's going on?
What's going on outside, what's going on outside? And when we got
to the bottom of the stairs, me and Mark, we were trying to
find out what was going on. We opened the door to go outside and
find out what was going on. Mark went first, and I can still
remember him about twenty foot down the road. But I got to the front
door, stepped one foot out and couldn't go any further. And I just
heard this like, well, I didn't just hear it, it was my
whole body and I was paralyzed. I couldn't move in my bed at this
stage, and my whole body is just throbbing, like the noise you would
expect a sci fi spaceship to make. That's the only way could describe it.
So my whole body was pulsing like with this spaceship. It wasn't a
spaceship. I felt as if my body was pulsing. I couldn't just hear
it, could feel this pulse in horrible sensation, and I couldn't wake up
from this dream. At the time, I didn't even know I was in
a dream. And for my peripheral vision, I could see, Like I
say, I don't know if you've ever seen the series Lost, but there
was a horrible smoke monster in lost, and it was that it was this
black smoke, a sentient black smoke, and it was coming towards me,
and I could see Mark, and Mark couldn't help me. And I could
see Mark and we're just looking at each other, and this black smoke just
engulfed me. And I was trying to fight and trying to wake up because
then I knew that this was a dream. So I was trying to wait,
and then I kind of just gave up and as if, Okay,
I just need to give up. There's nothing. I can't fight this.
I'm going to die. And then I woke up and that's where Mark comes
in. There was sweating. I was terrified. I mean, yeah,
I've never seen this like that. This was shaking in terror. You know,
it was a totally visceral, bodily experience that you could tell you even
though she'd was now conscious and but it was shaking that was so deep inside
her, and you know it was it was it was terrifying for me to
see like that. You know, it was that you've been through a really
horrible I'd been through something now talking you know, Ben, what you were
saying earlier about skeptic saying it's a real thing and it's just a dream that
is true, but you might know or you might not. I'm very interested
in Rosemary Ellen Guiley's work and Philippin Brongo and they wrote the vengeral Gin,
and I'm quite interested in the information on the Gin. And Rosemaryell and Guily
bless her. She's rest in peace, she's not with us anymore. She
said, yes, it is something our body does. But the in that
can take any form because they're smokeless fire, they can take any form,
and they can take advantage of the fact that we do have this natural self
paralysis, so they can take advantage of that. They can also induce that.
So, yes, it's a natural thing that we do have this paralysis
in sleep, But that doesn't mean that there isn't an entity taking advantage or
doing terrible things when we're in that state. If that makes sense, Yeah,
grabbing you WHI are you bounds off? Literally? Jerry Mudzinski as well.
It's talked about how when you're in a not only him, but when
you're in a vulnerable state, then that's when entities you're you're able, they're
able to get into you and one hundred percent, and they all talk about
it being electric. So they talk about the gin as electric smokeless fire,
which is elect trick. And Rosemary says, one of the ways to counteract
this is turn the telly on, turn the lights on. Some reason,
they don't like it when there's a lot of electricity around. But when Jerry
Mazynski was he works with schizophrenic well, he used to work with schizophrenic patients
in hospitals and prisons, and he realized the voices were real, they weren't
hallucinations, all these reasons that he comes to. While he realizes they're not
hallo, you know, they're real. They're entities or parasites, he calls
them. And he said that when he realized that, he challenged one of
his patients and he read them out something. Who was it from I've got
written down? He read them out something from a book by Don Miguel Ruez,
who was basically a chap like Carlos Castanada. So we read him out
something from one of his books, and it was all about you're just energy,
hearting, you're real, but you're not material. And this patient,
this patient with schizophrenia just stared at him like a zombie, his words,
and all of a sudden, Jerry was in his office and he heard this
crackling like an arc welder behind him, and he was too busy staring at
this patient with schizophrenia because he thought he was going to attack him because of
this horrible stare. And he could hear this crackling going up the wall behind
him above his head, hover over the patient, back down the wall on
the left, and boom went into his waste paper basket. So it's electricity
has a part to play in this. And I just I just find that
find it fascinating, Yeah, terrifying. Oh and then when he went home,
he did have the paralysis to sleep paralysis, and he had that feeling
of the entity on his chest trying to suffocate him, you know, on
his chest, pushing down on him. So smokeless fire. That they're not
material, but they can take the form of material and they can affect the
material world, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's dyingly strange enough.
She said that she's I was talking to her. She met her. She
was a leads and I said, he's great. Yeah, she was a
great lady. She said, oh, don't have any mirrors in your bedroom
when you're sleeping. Absolutely. I got rid of an antique mirror. Funny
enough, in the film Constantine, which is actually a really good film,
there's a scene which is clearly copied partly copied from the Exorcist where the main
character played by Kila Reeves as she does an exorcism, and a man and
he uses a mirror he puts she puts a mirror over the bed to extract
the demons. Yeah, she ums out in the mirror. I can't remember
the way. Yeah. But my ex wife she was told in her early
days in psychic developing circles because she was seeing spirits faces in mirrors all the
time. And she spoke to the lady who ran the circle and said,
what do I do? And she goes cover up your dressing table with tee
towels or whatever, just so you don't see them anymore, because you were
seeing things in the mirror the whole time. Wow. And then you think
about Alice through the looking glass, you know, also another all through another
world. And our friend Philip Kins told me that he had investigated doesn't research
into mirrors to look into them, to try and see if you can see
spirit faces and things, I don't think you have much success. But I
know the Egyptians used to have a black scrying mirror, and so yeah,
something like the sidian or something like that, maybe to try and see stuff.
So do you remember, sorry, well, because I just remember staring
himself in the mirror once, try and see if I could see something.
But your vision just goes all blurry. You know, you don't actually see
a part from yourself going or blur. I've never seen anything, but not
in this count happened. He didn't explaire them the AAP, the ACEAP conference,
I can't remember what it stands for, something paranormal something or another bend.
You'll probably know. So they the Situation for the Scientific Study of Anomalist
Phenomena. I knew you'd remember. But do you remember he was talking about
they got a whole load of them with mirrors, and they were trying to
do this experiment, weren't they. I don't know if you remember them talking
about that. Yeah, you stand. They to lower the lights in whichever
room not not not as completely dark as it was, very very dim.
Stare at yourself in a mirror and you'll see the face of some kind of
monster appear over your face. There's quite I mean, I did try it.
I mean it's quite scary. It's something. It's something I actually did
when I was a kid, and I noticed when I was a little kid.
But I think it may have something more to do with the workings of
the eye and the appearance, but it's still it's the sort of thing they
like to do. Funny, enough about Jerry, and I want to mention
about Gerry Marcinski because I listened to a couple of his things as well.
He was a train trainer as a psychiatrist. With how he got into this
treating schizophrenics. During his training, he was hold over and over again,
never ever humor the patients with their fantasies. They are just fantasies, they're
not real. Don't even discuss them, don't even think about them, and
never and certainly they never try to suggest, just to discuss with what they
might be like with the patient. So this is this is interesting because of
course he broke that rule, which is how he did his research. And
it must be, it must be, It must be very very difficult because
there's some that there's some kind of denial maybe even an active cover up within
the medical establishment of this phenomenon. May Well, he was making them better,
ben so they didn't need their medicine. Yes, that's sorry. The
old Prozac, the oldlands a Pine and things like that would lower they would
lower the lower the sales figures one at the share holds, one like that.
But it's just it's I find other interesting. And of course this is
a This is a pattern repeated over and over again, especially in things like
uthology, where the phenomena is denied rejected by the establishment. The good old
Jerry, though he broke his rule. He spoke to the patient about it,
and he discovered so much about it, not least in a clinical sense.
He found the means of a much more effective for treatment. Shit touch
of the old Robin Williams going on there, I think, yeah, Patch
Adam, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Liz you mentioned also about was
it your son seeing a UFO once? Yeah, So that was a very
strange one, because my sons are both for you know, awake, whatever
the word we use these days. They think I'm a nutter because of the
ufone bit. To be honest, that's the only bit. They think I'm
a nutter about, but we were I couldn't figure out if it was twenty
nineteen or twenty twenty, if we were just going into lockdown, or if
we were in lockdown. Yeah, I can't quite remember, but yeah,
but yeah, it must have been just before it was must have been late
in the midnight time because we were both asleep, and then all of a
sudden, Connor's shouting at us to get out of bed, and he'd been
watching this thing for bloody Angels and didn't wake us up, and he's like,
helicopters don't move that fast. Bloody helicopters don't move that fast. I'm
like, uh, you know. The weirdest thing about that was so he'd
been watching this thing, you know, demanding that helicopters don't go that fast.
And he is a bit of a sin when it comes to the UFO,
so we wouldn't have said that. And then me and Mark looking at
the window trying to see what he's seeing, and all of a sudden his
torchlights come through all of our windows, through Connor's window from my window.
That was a bit terrifying, so we shout out, oh, what the
boo deal's going on? In the garden and there as his copper has his
bloody policeman searching through our garden and searching in through our window, and I'm
like, what are you doing? And it kind of didn't just he had
to come up, didn't just come out of his mouth, did it.
It was almost like we're we're looking for a middle aged woman. It wasn't
oh, we're looking for a middle aged woman. It was almost as if
it sounded like an excuse. That was the only time I'd phoned up and
reported it to the police, a UFO siting I must have been it.
It does seem a strange position, you know, kind of having seen the
strange lights in the sky and then and then police shining torches in the garden
and searching for something. Yeah, exactly, and you know, not something
that we've ever had it before or since, you know, we're closest to
the tunnel. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and Rudlow Base, Yeah,
this had also seen a UFO on a different occasion many years previous to
that time. Well it was the previous occasion. What was that UFO about
then? So that was kind of Benjim, remember when we were looking for
Rudlow manner and we went and asked that posh lady and it was by there.
So this was years and years ago when I don't even think my youngest
son had been born, and Caleb must have only been one or two.
And I was with my ex husband and we were driving back from Cautium,
so we must have been going out for a meal or something. My mum
was babysitting Caleb, and we got to the top of my red blow and
these I can remember about five lights, all different colors, and I can't
remember the details, but I can remember it was so significant that me and
my ex husband we pulled the car over and we did that like in all
thing. But then I can't remember anything except for being back at home and
saying to my mum, turn it tally on. It's going to be all
over the news. And my ex husband was like, oh my god.
You know, we didn't know the word disclosure then, didn't know that was
a thing, but we're like, this is it real. It was so
you know, for what I can remember, it was almost like close encounters
kind of lights. It was so over the top what we saw that we
were convinced it was going to be all over the news. Absolutely nothing,
and then I forgot about it for twenty years. But I have been doing
some research at NEIL and I found some If I can find it, I
might have to just read this out because I won't be able to remember it.
Some Freedom of information reports on gov dot UK with regards to sightings round
about that time, so nineteen ninety seven and the ones that make sense to
me because my birthday is the tenth of July and the one that jumped out
to me was on the eleventh of July, and that would make sense as
to why I was out, because you know, I had a young son.
I didn't go out very often, so the only time I probably would
have gone out was from a birthday. So what I discovered on these reports
that from the sixth of July nineteen ninety seven to the eleventh of July,
there were sixteen reported sightings over the UK and seven was similar to me.
So if I could just give you a few examples. So the sixth of
July, skeedness Lincoln sheer a bright star shaped object. It had sparkling red,
green, blue and white lights. That's what I saw. It made
erratic movement and slowly moved to the south. Then there was Wrexham on the
eighth of July, one object with four lights, all yellow orange in color.
It moved to the north, then turned to its original position and disappeared.
And there's two or three more. But the one on the eleventh of
July was in Swindon, and that's only twenty five miles up the road from
me. So that was possibly on the same light I was out, and
they were ported two possibly three lights sometimes looked like fireworks or stars, all
fairly bright. The lights were going round in tiny little circles. Now,
the weird thing is it was so such an event and then I forgot about
it for twenty years. As strange, isn't it. Yeah, so you
think you had this in time or something, I mean, a story that
was sold. I couldn't honestly honestly say, you know, I couldn't.
I couldn't honestly say because I didn't look at the clerk, or you know,
I just remember not remembering. Yeah, you know, that's really interesting
thing because I remember many, many years ago a friend of mine who originally
came from the States. She said that as kids, and this would have
been somewhere in the mid early seventies, I think because she's a bit older
than me. But she said, obviously those big American cars, ire usaid,
back then, knew you could get a whole bloody family of fifty in
a minner. She said that she remembers being in the back of this big
car I don't know whose kite was a family member with her cousins and uncles
and other people, and they said they saw this huge bloody I don't know
if it was a flying triangle or just a disufie. I can't remember how
she described it. They described the size of its being as huge as a
football field size, which is the typical description here these days, the huge
you and there's just wall going over them sort of thing, you know.
And they looked going, oh my god, look at that. And they
remember driving back to the house and then one of them running down the lane
to try and track to see where it had gone. And then nothing more
was ever said about it. And then it was like thirty years later she
was talking on the phone to a brother or so. She said, can
you remember that thing? Weed? As kids? You know, the great
big flyings also, And he said, oh, I thought that was a
dream, you know. They hadn't forgotten it, you know, so I
rolled it again. I wonder. I think the only time I recorded again
was when I was actually at the UFO conference that Gary what's his names,
Gary Hessel time when we went to the UFO true we met Ben, first
time we met Ben, and that was the first UFO concience we went to.
And that's when I think I sat in the audience and remember because he
said, does anybody see the UFO? And my aunt went up and I
went, oh, yeah, your subconscious movie before your conscious mind. It's
sort of thing. I mean, why was I a bloody UFO conference?
Why was I there? Yeah? Because you know, it wasn't even in
the forefront of my mind, to be honest, It was in the background.
He was in the background. Very strange. So any strange marks on
your body anything else, well, that was still run. As you mentioned
that. We'll put that down to the visiting hag, shall we. That's
one one name to call him. Well myself that I have one of them
things and implant, but I can't remember where. Oh no, it was
in me chained, but I think that was just me being mad, so
not not to my knowledge, but you can if you overthink these things.
Convince yourself with things, can't you? So I don't think so. I
don't think so to be honest with you, if I'm being honest, But
it's it's funny that I was you were saying about forgetting the UFO experience,
because yeah, that experience when this dog spirit, whatever it may be,
all part of something inside me that came through. I mean, it's the
most amazing experience that's ever happened to me. But I hardly I almost forget
about it. And when you were sort of we were coming on this show
and it's like you have I had any paranormal experiences and that kind of thing
doesn't happen to me. Liz has had a lot of things. But remember
when you challenge you channeled Lassie. Yeah, I mean, and it's like,
bloodyh yeah, there was that that was let me now, but it's
just went to the back of my mind. And maybe that's maybe that's to
talk more, you know what I mean. By this time, and you'd
have an agent, you know, a different sub genre on a playlist,
on a channel with ust start sort of doing dog videos or something like that.
I started don'tifying as a dog when you're bringing through the spirit of Barbara
Woodhouse, and that was one of the kind of call signs coming through,
you know. It's I thought, we're going to say Barbara winter there from
and that's going to well, is everybody walking? You know, we've gone
vogue again and yeah, we've gone We always do this on our channel,
Sorry to do it on your channel. The Richard D. Hall material this
is obviously something I actually met Ben at Richard D. Hall conference when he
did something in London, so it's interesting. It kind of brought us all
together in that sense. So I heard about Richard D. Hall one time.
I was reading comments. I was watching UFO videos on YouTube, and
someone in the comments said, oh, you've got to watch Richard Diehl's NATO
and the Human Mutilation Program. So I thought, oh, what's that?
Then? Cool? So I copied the title, punched it into YouTube and
came up with it, and I remember watching it thinking, oh my god,
this is disturbing stuff, you know, And then I sort of found
out about the rich Planet website and started to watch all the videos on there
and it just went from there. Really I really did like his earliest stuff,
you know, he talked about the UFOs and the mutilations, the aliens,
and then he started to get into all sorts of other stuff. Wasn't
so much interested in the historians, Baron Blackett and all that kind of stuff.
It wasn't really my kind of time, teaming cup of tea sort of
thing, you know. And then he started to get into the other sorts
of stuff like the Boston bobby or the Manchester bombing and that kind of stuff.
So where do you where's he now sit in your kind of thing?
I mean, do you still go with him or does there any particular part
that you really enjoyed? Or I think he's one of our one of our
I personally think he's one of our kings, if you know what I mean,
he's one of the kings in this movement. I think, yeah,
I mean I well, as we said earlier, he was. He was
one of those that made me open my mind to a lot of things,
just because as someone coming from a point of view where, you know,
believe in them all mainstream wilbeit sort of thinking old authorities bad, but still
believing a mainstreams. The way that he forensically dissected things and presented such very
good arguments just so detailed. Obviously, the medel of Maccain, the Joe
Cox work that he did, I think as well, was something that really
blew my mind, you know, just the way I thought, I can't
you know, you can't argue with this. I think, you know,
he's so that detail, I think. But but yeah, I mean a
very broad section of his work, really, I think so much. You
know, even the historical stuff, like you say, did fascinate me as
well. Yeah, so I think he became quite a good also platform for
other people presenting their work, and he's almost like Britain's Alex Jones. Now,
I think what they had to have a scapegoat or the establishment have used
him like that. I think with this court case, they're trying to make
him like the Alex Jones to set an example. They're obviously trying to crush
free speech and you know, people's right to think for themselves and question authority,
and he's been used as a as a scapegoat. I think it's just
something. You've been to the court case to see it all happening. So
the hals of this mole, So what's your perception of the whole thing.
Well, yes, I went into the the public gallery of the first hearing
wherever Richard was facing facing these these charges, this this lawsuit. That's something
I predicted actually because when Alex Jones was prosecuted for supposed to harassment or whatever
change, they brought on him for questioning the Shady Nook incident, You've got
to be careful what you say on YouTube. The families of the alleged victims
sued him. This seems to be I said, this is a tactic they're
using its outsourced lawfare. Rather than just passing laws to signce people. They
get these to just paramilitaries to come in and do it for them. And
I said, they're gonna they're going to do the same thing in other countries.
They're going to do saying they're going to take on David Ike over here,
and I thought they pick on David because David is probably the most the
biggest and most famous of the people in the conspiracy over here said they chose
Richard. Probably why they didn't Bend. That's probably why they didn't. Maybe
they thought it was an easier option. It could it could be they thought
they tackle Richard because he'd be he'd be a softer target. Well, they
certainly underestimated him in that case. And you know, well, Richard's actually
handling it very differently to Alex, and I think he's doing the right saying
Alex. When Alex Jones was facing these charges, he groveled and he he
took the knee and he apologized he didn't really mean it over and over again
in court and it got him precisely nowhere. They still screwed him ragged,
and I knew they would do that. Richard instead has decided to run at
them. He's standing his ground, he's sticking by his guns. And I
mean, Andrew Johnson did a video, but Andrew Johnson's a very interesting video
about that way. He predicts that probably this, this, this whole thing
will be dropped eventually because Richard's defiance is going to it will ye to back,
it'll backfire on the establishment because in no way do if there's actually no
way that the Hip are actually behind all this. I mean, they say
they are apparently, but they make comments earlier on saying they didn't really care.
Then he bother them much and then suddenly they are. They're in contact
with Marianne Spring at the BBC, and before you know it. Then they
suddenly then suddenly Martin becomes all uperity about it and and all, oh my
goodness, be righteous indignation. I'm going to sue this guy. And then
he did this TV show. He does a radio show on a TV show,
which is a complete piece of emotional manipulation and propaganda. It's it was
totally notly devoid. Factually it was fact. It was a factual vacuum,
but loaded and loaded with sentiment. Like propaganda, good propaganda is it appeals
to the heart, not the head. It doesn't try to persuade rationally they
what good propaganda, effective propaganda does, but it builds up powerful emotions and
in the people it says, look, this is this horrible thing's happening.
Is this evil man behind it? The thing is they can't fight the truth,
Ben That's why they're not allowing him to bring his evidence to court and
not actually allowing him to show the truth. That's why I think it will
fail because the only way to prove that he's wrong is to let him show
his evidence, and they're never going to do that. Yeah, we're here
in the first quarter here was all about that and more. Richard wanted that
what Hammond was the Hibbitts were trying to They had their barrister in there and
he was trying to prevent Richard from bringing his evidence. This is why,
this is why, by the way, they chose harassment rather than libel.
But you know, the industry standard for this sort of thing is libel.
Where they said, but the thing is, if they're going to if they're
going to actually sue you for libel that is basically saying nasty things about you,
you have the defendant has the right to plead fair comment, which Richard
would go. But then then in that case they would have to let him
present his evidence to the court. And they don't want to do that.
They don't want Richard because Richard is right, this is the thing. They
don't want the jury to see that. Now. I just all I can
hope is that this will this goes Richard's way. But what I do know
is fortune favors of the bold, and Richard is being bold about this.
He's doing exactly right what Alex Jones did wrong. He just recounts for those
that don't know about this case, and there's people that think what they talking
about, so they just nack track a little bit, so you're explaining,
Yeah, the Manster of Evening Evening incident, which happened in twenty seventeen,
made the twenty second twenty seventeen. There's a lot twenty two's in this in
which a twenty two year old man killed twenty two people with a bomb at
twenty two hundred hours on the twenty second, and allegedly this is what happened.
Richard has researched this along with several other people, and has made a
couple of very good documentaries about it, and he's discovered that there's reasons we
should question that and what we maybe look at is some kind of fake some
kind of not even a false flag, some kind of stagecraft present created for
the media, and she brought her in a fast, fascinating evidence to bear.
He's worked very very hard. He's just field re search. He didn't
just sit around talking about it online, you know, like I do most
of the time. He does field research and he uh as a result of
this, he's I think he's reached quite a large audience and and I think
the estampishon are very worried. That's that's because I think they I think Richard
is right I think what he's discovered is legitimate, and the authorities are scared
that this is going to get this is maybe going to the point where there
will be what's that phrase they use, a breakdown of public trust. So
they're they're now trying to silence Ricians, trying to shut him up. But
it looks like it's backfiring. So I'm because, yeah, man, So
I do hope that considers. Andrew Johnson thinks they they're probably just to bantle
the whole thing eventually, and I hope that's true. Why why would they
Okay, I know that why they would not want to show his evidence,
But how can they, in a legal saying, prevent someone who's being in
charge with something present their own events of the because he's not being charged with
libel, he's been he's been sued for harassment or that the what the what
the judge said in the end was that the point is not the point of
whether Richard's right or wrong of what being to it's Richard's actions in the course
of his investigation, which which which is sense which unfortunately see that I believe
that whether Richard is right or wrong is relevant to it. But in the
unforce in the letter of law. It is not. What they claiming is
that Richard carried out illegitimate and unethical practices in his research, which is not
true. And Richard is actually very obvious. But they're trying to fix they're
trying to fix it. They're trying they're trying to poison the media against him
by saying, oh, he followed a disabled girl along the street and pointed
the camera that it had a sharpened spike, the sharpened spike, sharpened spike
around spring this this young woman who works for the BBC, she's behind all
this, I think, And of course that means Richard won't get They want
to try and poison the public against him, because what's the jury is made
up of the public, isn't it. I mean, I think it's a
notable with that other event which we can't name, with the Alex Jones,
that both of those events the bunch to one as well, that the Richard
D. Hill's been both involving supposedly lost children children. So are you saying
the particular emotive being the most emotive triggers that that can push. So it
seems to me that they particularly used events like this and maybe by particularly creating
them and knowing that there are people like Richard and the people in America that
as it smiteses, I can remember the chap's name that they did a lot
of research on the unnameable American incident, but knew that the people would research
that and point out the obvious flaws in the official story. But then as
soon as that happened, they could then seize on that. And there's like,
these people are denying that these tragic deaths happened, and they're besmirching the
name of these lost children. And as I say, that's sort of something
about so much the same he's challenged the Jill Dando thing, he challenged,
that Brexit woman thing. He's challenged so many, so many adult things he's
challenged. You make a good point. It's the children one that they go
on because it is so emotive, and you can't question that it is because
because obviously people have these feelings for children, I mean, they feel sorry.
And most of the victims of the the alleged victims of this incidence in
Manageter were your teenagers and young young kids. And it's it's for itchaling.
I mean, the concert was we had a Gray Evening news arena. Yeah,
yeah, I don't know who she is. I mean, you can't
think. I mean, I feel sorry for I feel sorry for Eve here,
but I mean she she if she has this injury to her brain,
you know, And I mean, whatever the cause of it was, it's
sad when here, like a fourteen year old girl has the trauma brain injury,
that's pretty sad. However it happened and how that happened, you know.
I think she doesn't seem to be the instigator of all this, and
I feel sorry for it. Same with all the other kids that were hurt,
and Richard believes that some of them did actually die shortly before this incident,
and that's how they've managed to fiddle them in. But I mean,
I do remember, I do remember just in the mainstream news just stuck in
my mind, and it was around I presume the inquest or something like that
that they had around it, but all in the very much in the mainstream,
so obviously it was a bit of a whitewash or whatever. But I
do remember it being in the mainstream news that the sort of I think ambulance
crews, emergency services, first responders, and they were saying they were frustrated
because they were held back and were allowed to go straight in to the to
the scene of what's supposed to have happened, and that they were and I
think there was they said, oh no, they couldn't. He wasn't safe.
But I mean emergent see first responders, I mean, I do a
job that I could ever do, but heroically, you know, as a
disaster area. They go in there, risking their own lives to try and
save others. And the idea that they'd be held back for a certain length
of time, I mean that that doesn't Something doesn't sit there. And that
was something that came out just in the mainstream inquest which made me think that
there is something wrong. There was I think a lot of confusion was generated,
but the fact there was there was a drill on the same day,
and you get this, well, where does that happened? Ben? This
is how a lot of these things that a lot of the confusion is generated.
And and see there was an emergency service drill and Richard Richard actually believes
that some of the footage was created from that drill rather than the main event.
So the Emergency Services, Police et cetera would have been involved in that.
So a lot of the a lot of the emergency services staff who weren't
directly involved with the incident would possibly have reason and to say, well,
this is the cause of the confusion, and it's it's possibly that it's possible
that some of these what if people think this is not possibily is There are
many many incidents in which, for example, that you know, imaginary and
fake scenarios are created for the purpose of exercise for the police, for the
emergency surfaces, for the armed forces, the air, entire companies that generate
fake terror and did I've been involved in some of these myself. In my
case as a hospital porter, it was actually within the hospital site itself,
but I took part in drills for fire and other accidents and floods and other
accidents that are within the hospital. I practiced evacuating patients from certain wards to
another and things like that. I had to play the role of a patient
ones lie on a bed and pretend that I had a broken leg, things
like that, And as far as you know, people say, well,
well, you know, well, it can't just make people disappear. You
can make people disappear under a protection program. It happens all the time where
people will literally be given a completely new identity and moved out their area.
Happened with well, sometimes it's people who are pretty disreputable, like the Robert
Thompson and John Venables who actually killed a little boy called James Bulger in the
eighties. They have been basically moved out of it. They've be given you
completely new identities, new names and everything, and they've been moved to different
locations away from where they live. That can be done, so you know,
I don't be surprised, Like if you you may be walking through the
Pennines in going to a little remote village and you meet a woman called Jane
Smith who looks and sounds a little bit like Joe Cox. You seen you
before somewhere, and they'll be given backstories things like that as well. I
mean, this is this is clears can be done. I mean, Joe
Cox is actually very similar figure to the kind that generally we use in these
in these proper gand for example, she's not a child, but she's quite
young and well forty one is forty one is quite young to be an MP.
Most MP's are a bit older than that, and she was like smiling,
and she's pretty young lady. She's a family woman and everything. Yeah,
she's the she's the perfect martyr to get people's heart, to tear people's
heart stranged in this sense. And this was just before the Brexit and was
going to vote leave, but you know, I'm just going to vote Leave.
But you know it's really you know, she she said she was what
she was a remainer and she's and her husband's going around saying love like Joe.
You know, he's not he's not at home with his family. He's
just going from TV student a TV studio the day after she's dead. I
mean, so that that's you may think, well, that wouldn't work,
but it does. It does work on a lot of people. Rather persuading
rashly because they tried to persuade us rationally to do what the government thought was
the right, saying a camera even sent three million leaflets to us it's to
say well stay in the didn't work. So yeah, so I think Richard
is I think Richard is right. I mean, you're not right about everything,
but I think he's right about this, and he certainly has should not
be being treated like us. No one should be treated in this way,
and it's despicable what they've done to him. I hope, hope things work
out for him, I really do. I would give a shout because you
can give donations if you go onto his website. I think it's just work
a couple of quids just to help him out with his legal fees, you
know, just a little shout out. Mm hmm, yeah, rich,
and don't I think is yeah? So, will you be going to any
other court of the court cases coming up then? If I can, Yes,
I'll report on them. I've reported on the two so far. That
the second one was on was just online Microsoft teams. But I'll report on
as many as I can. Yes, so, and of course they appreciate
the emotional support. You know. Is it July or something. It's not
been fixed yet for the final because there is going to be niche one more
hearing and that's we've got no date for it yet if should it go ahead,
because it might not even go ahead because I was thinking about this where
he wasn't allowed to show his evidence, which I thought was really really absolutely
what the hell's going on there? You know? Why can't you devenge yourself
and allowed to show your evidence of why you think you you know, ever,
and I thought that, hang on, that's just a bit like the
Helen Duncan case in the Second World War where they prevented her from giving a
demonstration of her own mediumship to prove that she had these supernatural powers if you
will, to the court and the members of the jury, and they voted
not to entertain that at all. She wasn't allowed to prove herself. You
know, if you're ever in court and you're facing some kind of charge and
you know the trial is rigged against you when you're when you have the potential
to exonerate yourself and you're not allowed to. They give you a fake,
they give you a different route to try and exonerate yourself. And well there's
a very easy way of doing in another way. And that to me,
Yes, there are there are parallels between the Witchcraft trial and what's happening to
Richard. Definitely a lot of parallels. It's it's yeah, that's what's very
underwear and the history. Yeah, there's one's very unfair and of course very
distressing for Richard. M we wish, yeah, one hundred percent and and
it's so important because it's as we've as you've been saying, Ben, and
it's it's part of a much bigger program where they're trying to stop anyone dissenting
from from challenging the new World order. And so it is a crucial importance
because you know, if they get away with this, then obviously they're going
to do more or more, and it's just going to prevent any of us
being able to speak out and and talk about these things. And so it's
slight importance that he's defended. Yeah, that's the ultimate objective, to create
a common law precedent which can be used against other people. Yeah, if
Richard goes down, we're next. Yeah, it's all about all about fight.
Yeah yeah, yeah, right. I think we're coming to the end
of our show here, folks. I mean, we could obviously go on
all night, but we have to draw a line somewhere, and we're now
over an hour into our second part, so I think that is probably a
good conclusion to end upon. So I'd like to say thank you to Liz
and Mark Brown for joining us to see on the Parallel Peak show to give
us some insights into your lives. And then you want to tell the ABI
answer about your channel, and about your websites and about your art and anything
else you want to tell us about before we leave you. It's a growing
it's a budding channel. It's a growing channel. So basically the crafty Nihilist
you'll I think Mark does Twitter X is it? Mark does it? I'm
sort of on there, but more performing Facebook. We're sort of on Twitter,
We're sort of on YouTube, we're sort of on Next, but it's
mainly a YouTube channel. Yeah, it was slowly growing. So oops,
frozen again. They go on again, terally going to get to I thought
we were going to get to the end and they wouldn't. Really the bail
you have pulled the plug. Well, I can say that they do have
a YouTube channel and they do their live quiz shows. I think on Saturday
nights. Don't they on the Crafting Nartists on YouTube? It's worth if they
join them for that. I think it's like seven seven o'clock seven. I
really do enjoy it. I often take part in these myself. You could
join the chat box and they make it very amusing and they it's always great
fun and they have the quiz and then Mark usually does it give us a
little lecture about usually very interesting subject So I do recommend going to that,
Yes, definitely. So what can we expect to see? Have you been
in the next couple of weeks? Well, I'm going to be. I'm
actually speaking at the Mablethorpe group at the week is This is actually the weekend
the Monday the thirteenth, actually the Monday the thirteenth of this month, which
is made. By the time this show goes out, it may have already
passed, but it's there will be a video available for it, so you
can I'll be talking about the BBC and propaganda and the kind of the things
we've been talking about this evening, some of the things we've been talking about
the evening, So yeah, I will be The maybe Fork group is a
local group but it doesn't have a website or any think. It's just some
people in the area who get together and are open minded and they've invited me
to go and do a talk. And this has been the second time I've
spoken for them, and I'm really looking forward to it. They're great people.
And when is that Ben? That's on Monday the thirteenth of this month,
Monday the thirteenth. I think our show would have gone out by then,
so that's excellent. Oh yeah, but that's no good luck of that
anyway. Are you going to be videoing it or something? Yes, so
will be will be making a recording and you, just like I did for
the last one, I will be making a recording so we can say as
you miss it, yeah, but do come along better if you can come
along. It's much more fun if you can come along too. Yeah.
But as I say, our recording will go out after you've already been there,
so unfortunately this is old news now. But never mind, I'm sure
we can catch it on Ben the j our Reporter. Yeah, on YouTube,
and add well hospital porters kids, you will, and also, of
course do you to pick up my books while rising a novel of disclosure?
Please if you like this program, you'll enjoy this book, you really will.
And there's two sequels. Yeah, definitely, can you definitely pick that
one up? All right, Well, thank you for joining us at once
More Ben as guest host, and please do come again. We'd love having
you on and really enjoyed it. In augun us. You're coming down to
dor sit to talk Dorset Earth Mistress in August, so we'll be catching you.
But then, so it looks like our crafted eyes have returned briefly,
so we can just say good night to them. I'm afraid listen, Mark,
we've just done We've just we've just done your little outro because you were
there in your absence and sorry, yeah, don't think they can hear me.
We can, you can see you, we can hear. We've just
through the mic, so we just give you a good outro. We've described,
we've described your Saturday evening show and things like that very much. Yeah,
but yeah, we're still recording the show here, so we're still being
You're still were being precluding this section. So your live show goes out on
Saturdays, doesn't it we your quiz is that right? Yeah, Saturday nights
at seven pm UK time. But Mark's going to see go Beckley Teppee for
two weeks, so it might be. Yeah, I'm going on the cute
Hugh Newman Megalithomania tour to Turkey to Beckley Tepe and the ancient sides frown there,
so I'll have information and video footage of that when I come back on
the channel. We still still yeah, yeah, but yeah other than that,
this is our exery site and mainly Mark's Amazing Talks is what you want
to be on there for Marks Amazing Talks. I learned a lot from those,
Yeah, I do very much. It's very nice, very nice,
you just say so. All right, thanks guys everyone for joining us on
the Paranormal Peep Show. Stay tuned for next month when we'll be hopefully back
with a B and another guest. I don't know who yet, but we'll
certainly hopefully a guest lined up for you, so stay tuned with us.
Stand So, thanks well and all for the Paranormal Beat Show and thanks for
watching and look out for other great shows on the Paranormal UK Radio Network.
Good night, all right. You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network,
number one for paranormal topics in the UK.