WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:13.240 Third round of the podcast with Alejandro Gaviria and Ricardo Silva Romero, a podcast 2 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:21.640 from the locutorio arroba the speakerio of that The President seems to be on another 3 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:27.399 topic. He goes through it every once in a while, but I dare 4 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:31.559 say he hasn' t read his development plan and he talks about grassland sometimes 5 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:40.799 agrarian reform and the end of the world. They' re like his three 6 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:44.320 main themes. With that ideology that revolves around this kind of identity, capitalism 7 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:50.320 equal death, yes, and the legislative agenda is in social security and there 8 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:56.280 is no unity. And sometimes he said a while ago reform is change. 9 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:10.760 But no longer Hello Ricardo, hello Alejandro, we meet again live and live 10 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:15.439 back after a week or several days, almost two weeks agitated. Yeah, 11 00:01:17.079 --> 00:01:23.560 we had this way and that way. I was thinking that when we do 12 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:30.239 third lap with message exchange they tend to be a little more literary or spiritual. 13 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:36.120 If it is one in another way, not in that plane mode, 14 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:44.640 and now we can practice the presentism speak of that perf our country. There 15 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:51.400 was over there a narrative essay genre with several compilations in Colombia noventero, with 16 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:53.560 the title at which time Colombia was screwed. Yes, yes, yes, 17 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:59.719 repeated, they have repeated it in several countries. Out of conversation in the 18 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:07.120 house it was Barbalos' you think Colombia is screwed or not. So much. 19 00:02:07.039 --> 00:02:10.080 I don' t like failure very much. Yes, and even a 20 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.439 lot to go to Catastrophism. Neither do I, but I do have like 21 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:21.439 this idea that the country is spinning about the same thing as it is not 22 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:23.680 moving forward and the promise of change is staying at that. Yes, I, 23 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:30.240 too, have that sense of betrayal of a cause, of fraud, 24 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:37.319 of a cause and I have been, in these weeks writing variations of that 25 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:44.400 idea, which is the feeling of having grown up even in a family that 26 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:50.680 expected the arrival of those causes. I don' t know, my grandfather 27 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.840 uncle, everyone was progressive and I was waiting for the moment when social justice 28 00:02:54.840 --> 00:03:00.759 would come. The family and my family full of friends from the left who 29 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:10.039 counted tortures in the northern canton and good people from the 19th century, who 30 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:14.080 were very close to the house. Or it' s very close to the 31 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:19.439 house. And all the time I am thinking of such a struggle, for 32 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:24.960 more than forty years to swindle that cause. And I' m impressed by 33 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:34.479 the people of that cause who let so many betrayals and so many scrappings and 34 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.520 so much improvisation go by, so ineptitude for fear of falling off the shelf, 35 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:45.520 for fear that you have to criticize and say this is not done or 36 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:51.560 there they are stealing or these people they named is terrible for fear that saying 37 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:53.039 that would mean a problem for the left or for progressive causes. So that 38 00:03:53.199 --> 00:04:00.719 silence in the face of disaster is understandable, let us say humanely, but 39 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.319 it seems to me that this is precisely the time to denounce it. The 40 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:09.360 mess. The word you say is very hard. Scam, yeah, I 41 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:13.520 do, I' m sorry, and you used a word in your last 42 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:15.759 column, also very hard, with which it starts. The column reconstitutes between 43 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:17.959 the t of the column, but the column begins with the word fraud. 44 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:26.240 Yes, and I understand the psychology Ricardo writes once I called her the difficult 45 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.600 task of apologizing illusions. Yes, exactly and I' ve seen even one 46 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.720 interview here aya asking a person who also grew up with the illusion of these 47 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:40.720 causes and says I' m disappointed by this, these hours, this and 48 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.160 they ask him, I' ll vote for petro and you say yes. 49 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.639 Yeah. I mean, it' s the idea of not giving up that 50 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:50.120 illusion of change, but it' s hard to keep it. I filmed 51 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.000 a video over there. In November of the year two thousand twenty- one 52 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:03.639 was pre- presidential candidate who kept it to me several times a week and 53 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:09.240 had this idea of himself what was going to happen in the government and did 54 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.600 have like this idea of what could happen. I can describe what Petro' 55 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.959 s government is going to be like. He wants me to explain. In 56 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.199 the first year, he appoints a good cabinet of national unity. He doesn 57 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.319 ' t make it together. Six or eight months go by. If it 58 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:25.800 doesn' t happen much, the government is broken up and Petro starts tugging 59 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.680 like crazy. And basically it' s that conflict that creates permanently and the 60 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:31.959 country' s agenda revolves around Peto' s twitter and nothing is done. 61 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.680 It' s a bit. I recently said that I was more afraid of 62 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:40.800 inaction than action in a Petro government. Yeah, and it was similar to 63 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:46.360 what I had seen with trumpo when I said Petro starts tweeting like crazy, 64 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:49.160 though, tweeting like crazy. What had happened to Trump during the pandemic does 65 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:54.560 nothing and the country revolves around the petro trills and I think that has been 66 00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:00.600 happening. Here is an issue that has changed, a debate, that puts 67 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.639 an agenda jumping from one side to the other. Meanwhile, the noun almost 68 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:09.639 abandoned. And that' s what you call fraud or staffa, which is 69 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:15.759 difficult. There is no discipline of public policies, there is no method that 70 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.879 was I will say clearly already without fear what I found in the government also 71 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:26.360 yes. There is no performance. No, and there is a divorce between 72 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.120 a chasm, I could put it that way, between what is said and 73 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.959 what happens, that it is five for any government. It' s hard. 74 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:43.000 Without a doubt, there is a benefit that brings those causes to the 75 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:48.519 power that is a benefit. I do not know symbolically, that there is 76 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:55.319 political recognition of certain groups that did not, that the discourse of peace is 77 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:03.920 repeated. It is important that there be marches without people, that they lose 78 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:10.319 their eyes, that there be one more public force on the side of the 79 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:19.560 population. There are benefits that remain for the Government and that would justify re 80 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:27.519 - voting for the cause rather than for the candidate. And yet that impossibility 81 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:39.600 of carrying out is exasperating. That' s what that tendency to let go 82 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:44.759 and let go of ideas that never land and will never land. Besides, 83 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:49.519 that' s just one of those. They' re already feeling like they 84 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:54.079 ' re ripping me off. This is a fraud you don' t have, 85 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:58.079 which is a meaning of words is you' re cheating on me. 86 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.720 I was fooled, I was told that this was going to be serious and 87 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:09.759 that a political agreement would work, for example, to bring forward what is 88 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:16.639 called social justice. But there are no agreements and no one to execute them. 89 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:24.759 And it is absolutely dramatic to see mediocrity and ineptitude. It' s 90 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:31.839 almost in those terms as serious as there' s no talent for this. 91 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.679 These people don' t know how to do this. I would say Ricardo 92 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.080 that there is an issue that is not only the inability to carry out, 93 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:45.879 to execute or to execute public policies that program after program, project after project, 94 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.519 achieve some goals of government. There is something more serious, in my 95 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:52.279 opinion, and it is not a vision either. The Government has no clear 96 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:54.960 idea. What you want to do with your time, and the time you 97 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.039 have left is two years, no more. If you look at the development 98 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.360 plan, the development plan revolves around an idea and it' s like territorial 99 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:09.639 planning, the multipurpose disaster, the sanitation plans, it' s very much 100 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.720 there. Sometimes it says it in a grandi way The President tells us to 101 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:16.279 order the territory around the water. That is the idea of the development plan. 102 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:22.240 The President seems to be on another subject, he revisits it from time 103 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.279 to time, but I would dare say that he has not read his development 104 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:33.039 plan and he talks about the total past, sometimes agrarian reform and the end 105 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:39.759 of the world. They' re like their three main themes. With that 106 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:45.919 ideology that revolves around this kind of identity capitalism equal death, yes and the 107 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:52.039 legislative agenda is in social security and there is no unity. And sometimes he 108 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.879 said a while ago the reform is the change, but it no longer appears. 109 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.279 Even willing to abandon some reforms, for example, health reform was left 110 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.679 out there, you fell under the very weight of its contradictions and the inability 111 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.960 to show society a viable alternative. Yes, but what is the vision, 112 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:16.840 what does the President want? It seems to have a vision for the world 113 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.559 more than for Colombia, if aviation for the world is based on its messy 114 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:24.360 readings. I think because he connects the second. I take Marx' s 115 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:31.399 capital with a marginal work of an author I think it' s Swedish about 116 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:37.840 fossil capitalism. So he wants to decarbonize the world and he' s kind 117 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:41.600 of a prophet and superimposed messiah and that' s complicated. I was at 118 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:48.320 the bank convention last week. The economy is stalled, private investment is stalled. 119 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:52.360 He has a collapse that he had not lived in Colombia for about twenty 120 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.480 - five years. Banks had their worst year in decades. It has been 121 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:03.080 the fourth worst year of the financial system in a hundred years and President Petro 122 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.159 made a final speech, a speech that lasted more than an hour, I 123 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:11.559 think an hour and a half, and he spoke about this, about his 124 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:13.799 view of the world, of capitalism, of the fossil of the economy. 125 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:18.080 There was no vision of our country and there was no good issue. How 126 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:24.159 we are going to deal with a critical juncture to our planet, which makes 127 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.039 one think that he has one more temperament to be, for example, a 128 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:35.559 university professor who wanders and who is linking as that his readings, his ideas, 129 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:43.080 his suspicions, or, for example, to be a reckless columnist as 130 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.759 he says. He ascended the right in Europe is the end of the century 131 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.440 of lights, which in itself is funny, because that is over a long 132 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.240 time ago. Let' s say the century of lights and I think all 133 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.519 that was a bonato. I say it was at the end of the century, 134 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.360 when he won the right in the European Parliament. He said the century 135 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:09.000 of light. Or the end of the century of lights, a little late. 136 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.320 But this is a prophet, a little bit. This is that he 137 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:16.600 has an announcement at the end of the century of lights. Humanity had already 138 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.360 closed that chapter two hundred years ago. Well, which would be interesting those 139 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:30.279 impossible connections to make and which show as a particular way to spin the speech. 140 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.000 Well, whatever it is, it would be interesting in a class like 141 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.799 elective. Not even the inpensum This lord is going to present the twentieth century 142 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.320 or the story according to him, and it would be interesting to hear it 143 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:46.879 and wander if he were in a school. I repeat, if you' 144 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:52.399 re not bensuming because you' re not telling the truth, you' re 145 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:52.960 not explaining anything, you' re going to feel so well conned. This 146 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.559 teacher didn' t teach me anything, but that class would be for him 147 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.960 to teach. I believe that as an exact seventh, as an effort and 148 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000 tells me well this guy said something Jesus Antonio Berano already talked about the crisis. 149 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.759 I remember an economist who rested peacefully murdered by the year of the seventh 150 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.639 - century crisis. I think it would look good there. There would not 151 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.039 be perfect, because then there are some students who are fascinated, others who 152 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.000 say that good wagon has the same place as columnists. As a columnist, 153 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.759 he talks about the rise of the right in his next column, as it 154 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:33.080 is questionable, but he is a columnist and fine. But the President determined 155 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:39.120 on behalf of an entire country that passed in Parliament' s elections half an 156 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.240 hour before the results were known. Well, that' s not what you 157 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.679 do. And with his resounding opinions. When the constituent sank in Chile, 158 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:56.320 he said he returned an opino chet Pinochet said when Millay won, the Nazism 159 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:01.720 said the guasmo. Those resounding opinions, which are perfect for a twitter or 160 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:09.080 a columnist and are even debatable. You tell this columnist what you want to 161 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.480 slow down, what you want to do, I think you' re overreacting, 162 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:13.399 but he' s a columnist. It' s not right, yeah, 163 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:20.000 yeah, so gives an audience. That' s provocative and furious and 164 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.159 it' s funny. I am a tempest, as now that he has 165 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:26.519 done to Ricardo, it seems funny, because it is how I have a 166 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:33.879 non- extrapolatory word, not as the case goes and extrapolates it to the 167 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:35.039 end of the world, not to the ground of the world. There is 168 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:41.240 an event in the present and the world is always checked. Yeah, and 169 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:46.759 I think he' s having a little shepherding effect. Liar, which is 170 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.639 that some things that says very serious, as Nazism is rising in the United 171 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:58.960 States, that would be, therefore, to risk the relations of two countries, 172 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:05.159 like that nothing happens anymore, because they already know that speaks a lot 173 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:09.080 and that anything can get out of there. He' s still Presidents. 174 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:15.960 Especially I think it has lost effectiveness in international scenarios and people begin to say 175 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:24.200 if the extrapolation trend. Here again is a more delicate subject. Ricardo sometimes 176 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:31.879 when he examined this complex psychology of President Petro and who have this last decision 177 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:37.320 that one could understand, in the latest decision on banning coal exports to Israel. 178 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.879 If that is a risk that in substance, I find it interesting, 179 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.679 because issues of international trade and the economy always have to decide. They are 180 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:54.519 such matters have always had pragmatic elements, but he gets into that subject and 181 00:15:54.559 --> 00:16:02.840 gets into it with an absolute moral judgment and basically makes that decision that one 182 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.320 could say ethically and morally, would have some justification. But here comes the 183 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.279 point that seems complex to me, which is that he is his moral status 184 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:18.159 in the world, which seems to be above the economy of the country. 185 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.639 Today, people' s well- being. If one wants to, then 186 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.080 of course I see a certain moral narcissism, that is, what mattered is 187 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:36.399 not Colombia' s position, it is the taking of a breast with that 188 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:41.600 kind of moral superiority respenses of the economy. Now someone might say yes, 189 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:47.360 pragmatism one applies when there are questions of humanity it seems complex, because he 190 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:49.720 could say the same, do the other. And there is contradiction because it 191 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.679 is more the same with Russia, for example. Of course, with a 192 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:57.159 number of countries you could do the same and you start to think already in 193 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:03.480 diplomatic terms, because that is an international treaty. There' s a FTA 194 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.319 with Israel, now, there' s company contracts, they' re tricks 195 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.599 that you have to compute. The President may make that decision. I don 196 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.839 ' t think so, but I don' t know now I wouldn' 197 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.519 t give it anymore, because it' s a FTA. Then we have 198 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:22.839 to rewind it. And one immediately imagines Israel saying well, because I buy 199 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:29.240 carbon from other people. Nor is it going to shake that country, but 200 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.559 it is going to be a gesture that will be applauded as by the same 201 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.039 old auditorium. It has no impact on Israel, but they do have a 202 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.079 pact on Colombia. You can' t have a lot of people get into 203 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:45.240 trouble that well, okay, there' s a moral impulse that you might 204 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:53.799 understand, but again, there' s a lot of ignorance of the realities 205 00:17:53.839 --> 00:18:02.039 of international relations, which is, then, the same unknown of, for 206 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:07.519 example, the health system. The same ignorance of everything is to throw ideas, 207 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:14.240 to make decisions that begin to affect their own people, in the case 208 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.839 of the export of carbona the people who will live of it, in the 209 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.599 case of the cards of the patients who are in vilo. Anyway, there 210 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:29.400 ' s a lot of ignorance of the consequences, which is that it' 211 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:34.880 s worrying, because I would think that governing is just taking into account all 212 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:40.759 that. I believe that a ruler to practice a way of calling it with 213 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.279 a word that is sometimes piorative, but utilitarianism, to worry about the well 214 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.279 - being of its people, because of course, there are moral considerations, 215 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.640 but that are carried away in other areas and called mostly in a rhetorical way. 216 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.119 He can go to the United Nations and express the speech. It seems 217 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:59.920 illegitimate to me and presents his ethical and moral vision of the world, but 218 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:03.680 how about he presides with a pen ranking the countries from good to bad and 219 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.119 say me, after a line here and trade with these, yes, with 220 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.319 these no. No. To begin with, Venezuela is a case of discussion. 221 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:15.720 It' s a humanitarian tragedy to be the continent' s biggest in 222 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.920 the last hours, the five quiet. One of the diplomatic relations with which, 223 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.720 moreover, as I personally agree, could be established there, we were 224 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:29.680 doing for China, because there are many human rights considerations in China. Yes, 225 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:33.720 it was like when Duke was President and lived indignant with mature, but 226 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:40.920 he met with the Dogan, who was another judge, authoritarian president, who 227 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:48.240 one could fear or Iran or anything. So it' s hard and if 228 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:53.559 we' re tying up our conversation, there' s worries about not carrying 229 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.400 it out. Yes, concerns about the lack of a vision to which the 230 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.400 country wants to lead and these are perhaps the most complete and authoritarian tendencies, 231 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:10.559 lawlessness using a power that is capricious. Yes, you are afraid of a 232 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:17.039 tumultuous democratic transition up to two thousand twenty- six. I still tend to 233 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:27.200 think that there are no dangers of him wanting to stay or being violent. 234 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.359 I don' t think so. I don' t think I see it 235 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.599 yet and I' m not afraid of it, and I think we need 236 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:44.799 to be less afraid of petru I think we need to face it more and 237 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.559 stop it more and that every time you propose constituent power, remind it that 238 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:48.960 it is making ambiguity, because it always starts like this. It' s 239 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.920 on one side and then it looks like it wants to change the Constitution, 240 00:20:53.279 --> 00:21:00.359 but then it goes like reforming it and it' s juggling until really what 241 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.720 I was saying is that people have to take care of their destiny, which 242 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:06.400 is a common place. But, of course, and besides, what people 243 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:11.400 do before, they spend it taking care of their destiny and leading in spite 244 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:18.000 of governments. There is one thing that I find delirious and worthy of psychiatric 245 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:23.720 study, which is the ignorance of the struggle of others, of the struggles 246 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:29.880 of others, the ignorance, for example, that the Mayor of Bogotá is 247 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.480 the son of Galán, that if you want symbols, because there you have, 248 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:40.559 you have a symbol and has its symbol is that there are millions of 249 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:45.400 people in Colombia. I think that is the most verifiable thing that still has 250 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.680 a broken heart, because that man was not President, because Galán was not 251 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.319 President. And that' s a very important struggle that took place. There 252 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.440 were a lot of people who got killed to get to that ninety- one 253 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:00.759 constitution, that two- tenth agreement. If you say that, it was, 254 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.880 then, five years of discussion, despite the right that bothers Petro so 255 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.519 much and I am very impressed by the ignorance of the struggle of others. 256 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:17.119 For someone who has had such clear struggles, it seems rich that he wants 257 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.759 to choose himself as the one who represents all struggles. Yeah, this, 258 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:26.440 they' re all somehow enthroned. There He is the embodiment of all the 259 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.599 suffering, all the madness of the history of this country. If he is 260 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:37.200 not able to say, there are other people in this present who also personify 261 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.000 that struggle, that struggle that are also paradigms beyond the simple sinucha example. 262 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:49.000 That' s very fundamentalist. The other day I read an article about the 263 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:59.079 insults that are thrown from the extremes and as good burguesito, Señorito, told 264 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:04.880 them the most radical left, cal la calao likes very much. Now it 265 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.599 ' s the lukewarm ones. That' s one thing you' re supposed 266 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.480 to be. It' s a great insult and I remember a friend who 267 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:18.279 is a great artist who in a conversation told me I can' t stand 268 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.240 the middle class. This one, of course, is a middle- class 269 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.400 friend. But of course, the artistic world, which sometimes crosses with the 270 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.079 left, tends to despise the middle class, because it sees it accommodated at 271 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.359 the top, accommodate some medianía, not a certain medianía. And it seems 272 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:41.440 to me that the contempt of the middle class is very unfair. It is 273 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:47.200 very unfair from that extremism, because there are struggles there and there are people 274 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:52.599 parting their souls and trying to take out houses that are projects to more concrete, 275 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.720 to take forward a family And all that and the contempt of that to 276 00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.759 me seems to have been the great failure since liberalism on the left, that 277 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:07.000 is, from a larger progressive bloc. Let' s call him in Colombia, 278 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:12.599 the yes block. He does to peace. Their great failure is the 279 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:19.319 contempt of that, of the middle classes of conservatism. Of course, several 280 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.000 of your fears, you, the fears that are legitimate. The last conversion 281 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.000 I have, Petro, I don' t know if there would be this. 282 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.039 I had already told it in a previous episode. That comes from the 283 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.119 case. It was about that, Ricardo. I didn' t call it 284 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:37.559 middle class. I told him at the time the President is forgetting that portion 285 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.839 of Colombians who think they have something to lose. Yes, of course, 286 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:47.440 and the middle classes want to move forward, they want to socialize the middle 287 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:52.160 sentence, because they are represented by social mobility, but they think they have 288 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.640 something to lose and they have fears. If they have that more or less 289 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:03.880 instinctive conservatism. And there is that conservatism for a person who has been left 290 00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:08.279 and that change, rapid change and social replications have been his great struggle. 291 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:15.519 He sees this as a kind of obstacle, but these without the middle classes, 292 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:21.799 it is a difficult society, prograted, that does nothing and without a 293 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:27.799 pact that we have talked about before with a liberalism one the causes of the 294 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:37.839 left hardly prosper, they become a pulse among fundamentalisms, it becomes a trigger, 295 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.799 a trigger of fears. It is the agreement with liberalism that makes that 296 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:52.440 transformation possible and it seems to me and I think that it is the fiasco 297 00:25:53.160 --> 00:26:00.680 of the government that begins in the reluctance to agree with the liberalism that has 298 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.880 to be said, it has achieved transformations. The Constitution of the nineties has 299 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.079 a lot to do with liberalism in it the Agreement of two thousand sixteen And 300 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:14.440 maybe that doesn' t much like someone radical, because the liberalim doesn' 301 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.400 t like the accumulation of power. Liberalism believes that knowledge and forces of change 302 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.279 and society are fully centralized. They can' t be just one person. 303 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.680 That kind of caudillisms are not welcome between someone who calls himself liberal and liberalism 304 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:36.799 brings that scepticism too and brings and a hundred those people are already doing a 305 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:41.400 lot and that force that you will never be able to channel everything for your 306 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.759 political purpose leave it and that is also a force for change, he has 307 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.119 to work tun is liberalism. He believes in this that not everything is reduced 308 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:55.640 to the government is even skeptical about the ability of politics to transform society, 309 00:26:55.720 --> 00:27:04.680 because in other ways, as societies are transformed also Ricardo, we had a 310 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:11.200 little reluctance to talk about this issue. Yes, yes, it gave us 311 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.799 laziness, but it' s because I think it' s not very clear 312 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.279 in our mind that our debate was so much involved. I' m a 313 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:26.160 little more involved than you are, but also how you try to keep that 314 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:26.599 aceptical distance. But at the same time, he will not be indifferent. 315 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:33.839 I don' t care about anything that people don' t agree with me. 316 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:41.160 That is, I find it very feasible to be friends with someone who 317 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:48.720 disagrees with me. That' s a peace of mind. I try to 318 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:56.240 say what I think and that' s it and that' s where it 319 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:03.759 comes to propose what I think and portray it as I see it and I 320 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.680 think that' s already it, that' s my participation. But going 321 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:14.920 further seems to me to be useless and absurd, because I think there' 322 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:21.119 s no way to convince, there' s no way if someone answers my 323 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:26.119 column. I think that, that' s a spiral into nothingness. In 324 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:27.039 other words, it doesn' t carry anything. No. Instead, I 325 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:33.079 think that already with the proposal of writing, everyone who reads and uses what 326 00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.960 he read in his own way agrees with something, with something else, no, 327 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:41.119 but I think the most useful thing is that of the rest of the 328 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.839 pulse. It seems to me that it never carries any of the fighting of 329 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.880 those, of some interesting social networks because I was already saying it in the 330 00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:53.799 Macar Commission on Friday I read your column. I was looking at my cell 331 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:59.319 phone as I started a lecture and I saw President Petro commenting on it, 332 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:00.640 and then I started thinking to Ricardo whether or not I would answer it. 333 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.160 Yes, I had been tempted to answer him when he mentioned me and I 334 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.599 said hopefully, I will not make the mistake that I made because to hook 335 00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:11.440 up there I was left with an evil envelope in my mouth. I don 336 00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:12.880 ' t think he' s carrying anything for what he' s not. 337 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.039 I think she' s not wearing anything because I think she' s not 338 00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:26.039 talking about the same language, that is, she' s just a column 339 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.440 about recognizing them for the progress that others make. Or that pact between liberalism 340 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:36.359 and the left, because it succeeds and he commented on it. As, 341 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:41.319 on the other hand, it is a whole discussion in the mind whether one 342 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:47.519 responds or not, whether one is being arrogant, not responding or doing well. 343 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:51.440 And finally, it seems to me that this network scenario never leads to 344 00:29:51.480 --> 00:30:00.440 debate. It is always an effort to prevail as already the message he has, 345 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:06.160 because he has already won because he is the President. He has seven 346 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.279 million followers. Or whatever, and that' s already na everything that I 347 00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.799 put a t a train or a message on the social network x what it 348 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.039 ' s called now I look at and at twenty seconds there are two spares. 349 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:22.519 One says naked on my profile and the other is a petro cellar. 350 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:27.240 Insulting me with that street guy or anything. I don' t know how 351 00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.960 to put naked on my profile faster or play petro. I think you' 352 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:36.279 re talking about the two- spectrum hold all of a sudden in one of 353 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:40.519 those, but and I' m more tempted to answer the nudes on my 354 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:45.480 profile and than the other, because thank you so much, oh new, 355 00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.839 yeah, that, that' s not it. I don' t think 356 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.039 there' s a debate there. And, on the other hand, I 357 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:53.799 think that in reading what you write, if there is any debate, people 358 00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:57.160 will think. This guy has no idea or I agree with this and not 359 00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:02.799 with this, and something goes away and somewhere I think he does. I 360 00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:07.880 think fighting and getting stuck in that isn' t worth it. It also 361 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.640 gives me a sense of restlessness. I don' t think so for one 362 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:17.759 ' s own mental health, and so does one like a corner of a 363 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.519 ring And it' s me that you don' t have a problem recognizing 364 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:27.279 how good the government is or if they do something good or if they pass 365 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.279 a law that' s worth it, that is, for example, bullfighting. 366 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:37.519 I think it' s good that that discussion comes out and that that 367 00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.960 ' s already absurd for this time. There are progressive things that continue to 368 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:48.839 work and remind me of what you were saying about liberalism and how liberalism does 369 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:53.599 is release leadership. I believe that in these thirty years there have been some 370 00:31:53.640 --> 00:32:00.000 leaderships that exceed the governments, that is, for example, someone like Elizabeth 371 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:05.279 Castillo in the world of the axis, or Monica Roja in the world of 372 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:13.400 women or current and reproductive rights, Cristiana Cristina in the world of just cause 373 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:20.240 or González yes Gana, Cristina González or Carlos González Pucci in football, who 374 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.559 is the man who responds for the rights of the workers in that world, 375 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:30.640 And so one can see the lady of the EOM, who is fantastic in 376 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:36.599 the electoral system. One can see in all Colombian issues leaderships that transcend administrations, 377 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:44.240 presidencies and that are always there and have transformed what they do into an 378 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:49.559 organization that is called childhood, because they seek them all over the world because 379 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.359 they defend the rights of children, the presidents change, but those people do 380 00:32:53.359 --> 00:33:00.279 continue to make transformations. Change does not depend only on the soro policy of 381 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.680 leadership, and these examples of civil society, of real leaders, end up 382 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:10.400 being even more effective. Sure, on the other hand, other ways, 383 00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:15.160 you said something now, Ricardo, and the speech still makes sense. I 384 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:17.279 like to call him sometimes. I don' t know if it sounds pejorative 385 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:22.240 or insulting. Rhetorical consolations from the leader in that position of being President that 386 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:28.640 symbolically is so important. Some rhetorical consolations are important, but the concerns that 387 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:34.160 we have enumerated authoritarianism, the ignorance of other leaderships, the ability to implement 388 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.359 projects are worrying. And the lack of vision of a country that, if 389 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:47.319 it seems to me a way to waste some causes and one and such irresponsibility 390 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:54.680 to have come to propose a fiasco, to do nothing of what so many 391 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:01.759 people fought. There were so many left- wing voices and so many important 392 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:09.000 leaderships that they could have made a magnificent democratic presidency that convinced people that the 393 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:15.840 left was not a disaster, but a way of directing democracy towards social justice. 394 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:21.599 There were so many people who could have done well and come to that, 395 00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:24.800 to waste it, to put people wrong to make the problem of people 396 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:31.400 ' s lives the government. That' s infamy. Unfortunately, Ricardo, 397 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:36.760 we' re in the moment of tweeting like crazy. Yeah, I think 398 00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.920 this conversation doesn' t add to that spiral. Yes, I mean, 399 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:44.599 if the President is doing that, maybe we' ll have some broad retis. 400 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.360 Yes, someone has to give themselves as an adult in the situation and 401 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.719 is to restrain themselves. That' s what needs to be done. Hold 402 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:57.760 on and hold on and not fear so well. I believe that I am 403 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:04.119 surrounded by many friends who fear a lot and who feel that this can end, 404 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:09.360 because in the dumbest example that is given that it is Venezuela, as 405 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:14.679 well, ignoring all the historical processes of the countries, I do not think 406 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.039 that goes there. Neither do I, but I do think he' s 407 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:22.280 making a con. I have only one rich concern and it is democracy. 408 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.519 I also need that we had already said, a certain willingness to lose respect 409 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:29.760 for electoral rules. Yeah, I mean, I lose and I agree. 410 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:37.840 Yes, and the populist leaderships trump baganaro have not been able to recognize the 411 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:40.920 results of adverse elections. No, and I am afraid that in the year 412 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:49.239 two thousand and twenty- six President Petro will begin to undermine confidence in the 413 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:53.039 electoral institutions and question the outcome of an adverse election. Now we have to 414 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:59.119 recognize the fears that do not come from nothing and Petro Yes has sometimes talked 415 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:00.599 about this place being the subject of elections. It' s worse than Venezuela 416 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.239 ' s. He said that phrase. I don' t like that. 417 00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:06.599 That, that' s a phrase that, besides, doesn' t make 418 00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:08.920 any sense to a man chosen for that. Yeah, that' s what 419 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:14.360 the election system is all about. The electoral system, at least at the 420 00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:19.039 time one compares it with other countries. In Colombia at two and a half 421 00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.320 hours we already know who the present is. We know it has never been 422 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.559 questioned, either here or there. But it was a mess but I don 423 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:29.320 ' t think it' s good. The last was a thousand nine hundred 424 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.760 and seventy, but you' re a real moment, that' s true, 425 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.480 but since then I believe Colombia has had a credible electoral system. We 426 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:43.440 will continue in the struggle Ricardo, we will follow strong embrace gram. It 427 00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:46.920 ' s clear we can all write. It is clear that we can all, 428 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:52.440 with luck and vocation, devote ourselves to the craft of writing. But 429 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:58.920 lately I think that not only can we, but we must write. Writing 430 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:04.719 is the best therapy we have at hand. Welcome to fictionary an audio course 431 00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:13.159 on how and why I wrote Take the audiocourse of fictional writing in the locutorio 432 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:22.000 com slash fictionario with Ricardo Silva Romero. Always pick a good time. Always 433 00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:28.760 choose a good conversation. Third lap podcast. Subscribe now and listen to it 434 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.360 every week on your favorite platform, a podcast produced by the speaker. The 435 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:39.800 newsroom follows us like a ruff. The locutorio tese on social networks