Ask what up? What Up? What Up? What Up? Welcome to
the podcast, everybody. My name is Paul Abernathy. Welcome to a Master
the NC podcast. Available in all of your popular listening platforms. Just go
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I've been doing podcasts since probably before they were called podcasts. We're talking
about all the way back in yeah, about two thousand and four. I
date back here, not want to, don't really want to date myself there,
but been doing them for a long time and it just wasn't to the
last I guess ten years that it became much easier to share them through the
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to believe that it's been that long and the technology has changed so much to
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It's free, it doesn't cost you a time. Okay, cool, let's
kind of get into today's topic again. I had another question. It was
sent to me. It seems to be one big ongoing debate, especially since
Leviton has come out with some new types of devices. That's right, that's
right, Leviton has come out with it. It's enough. Leviton has come
out with a new device that has way goos built into the device, making
it so much easier to make that connect. Now, this isn't a far
stretch now from the backstab applications, except for using the WeGo on the devices.
Is going to probably branch it out further than what currently when you backstab
you're limited to fourteen gage fifteen amp devices, right, So um, this
is going to expand its application obviously the use of wegos. They come in
different ratings for different sized conductors and things like that. So um, you
know Levinton, I believe it's Levington, don't don't hold me to that.
But they whoever it is, they're all over the internet and they're going to
start coming out with these these Wigo integrated Obviously they made some kind of agreement
with these manufacturers. That's how it happens. And you know what's awesome about
it is that it now settles the debate right that people have about well is
the you know Weigo's okay or backstabs okay. Look backstabs have always been okay
if you do it properly. Now there's people that go on social media.
I did a couple of tiktoks today. Go check them out. Follow us
at the Master the NBC over on TikTok. You can also find our handle
is at the at Symbol fast Track System. All of that over on our
TikTok. The only thing we do on TikTok is advertised, and you know,
try to find people that post things that are misleading or incorrect or wrong.
And I feel like it's a duty being a code Panel member that we
kind of separate the fact from fiction on a lot of things. And again,
opinions being what they are, you can obviously have an opinion about something,
just don't state it as it's a fact. And there's a lot of
people on there who Again, there might be an influencer on TikTok, but
that means nothing when it comes to in the field. I have over thirty
two years. I'm in the front of the codebook two times. Go look
for me, Code Panel five, Code Panel seventeen. I've served on NEEMA,
I've worked for ANEMA, I've been ahead of jurisdictions for many years in
Virginia. I work for a major manufacturer today. I know about terminals,
I know about conductors. I'm an expert in that area. And so look,
there are just as many failures in the industry from improper termination, whether
you tork it too much or not enough, or you've damaged the terminal,
or you alter something in some way at a terminal that causes it to fail.
I have people out there who say, oh, I've seen a number
of issues in service calls based on backstabbing. I am again going to call
and say on all that, Okay, I don't even have a beep button
where I could beat. I used to have thought I had a beat button
somewhere that I could beat when I said a cuss word or something. But
look, don't buy it. There's even some guys on TikTok who have quite
a bit of following who say, if you're electrician and your backstab, you
should be fired. Dude. Listen, a device that has the backstab capability
is listed and evaluated for that application. Now, I get it. You
may not like it, I understand. And this is going to be my
final debate on this topic because again I understand it. Paul. You're a
hack, you know you backstab? Hey whatever, If you get your panties
in a wad, then that's that's that's you. But if a manufacturer actually
puts on their device the ability to backstab, it means it's been evaluated for
that application. Just reach out to the manufacturer and ask them. They'll have
the test data, they'll have everything that they did to comply, and so
the sheer fact that on those backstabs you have to stick a tool in there
to loosen it to pull it back out, it should tell you something.
Right now. The other thing that you have to remember is that it's okay
to wrap the screw as long as you do it right, and it's okay
to backstab. The thing about wrapping the screw is that you're supposed to torku
all of those terminations so that you don't overtighten it and strip out the internal
threading of that screw, where later, when the conductor gets hot under a
load, it's going to expand and contract and it could come loose and then
you create an art. If you backstab, you do it properly, should
not have any problem because it's been evaluated for that. It doesn't mean that
you can't have a device fail. I mean things do fail. So if
you think that backstabbing was such a hazard, then don't you think that there
would have been a manufacturer's recall. Don't you think that it would have been
an uproar into industry, not just what a person here or there, or
some electrician who maybe went to one or two calls where they had a problem
with the backstabbe I can tell you when I was a contractor, I went
to many calls where the whole side of the receptacle melted down. And it
certainly wasn't because of a backstab. It was because of a rapping a screw.
And so look, things fail. It's just part of our industry.
Nothing lasts forever. Hey, when you're pulling current through a conductor, it's
going to heat up. It's why our installations rated ninety degrees. Even in
non metallic sheet cable, it's rated ninety even though we're limited to the sixty
for ampacity. Wise, it still heats up. There is some movement,
there is some expansion and contraction. Again with copper and today's aluminum, it
is less of an expansion and contraction as it was years ago when it was
the old style aluminum. Today we're dealing with a eight thousand series aluminum,
but we typically don't use that for the small terminations anyway, right, that's
usually larger stuff, a gauge and larger. So when we're talking about receptacles,
these devices, if they have a backstep, it's okay, it's quicker,
the connection's fine, and so usually the same haters that hate the receptacles
also hate way goes. But then they'll come and say, well, the
lever ones a fine, dude. They all typically work the same way,
whether there's a lever compressing on the conductor or it's pushing through pinch points.
Again, it's all evaluated. I have no problem with using a product,
and you know whether I like something or not, or i'd lose something and
somebody, for example, people will pre twist their conductors to a wire nut,
and there's some people that don't pre twist, and the manufacturers don't tell
you you have to pre twist. That's a choice you make. So at
the end of the day, to go out and say people are wrong if
they don't twist, or to say people are wrong because they twist is kind
of like the argument between Ford and Chevy. It's whatever your preference is,
okay. But when it comes to backstabbing, if that device is listed for
backstab, damn it, I'm gonna backstab it. Now. Maybe not all
cases, or maybe I'm using a fifteen amp device on a twenty amp circuit,
which we can do for example, in the code allows me to do
this. In the code. If you don't know that, you need to
get in our fast track program. So in a kitchen twenty amp circuit,
I could put fifteen amp raty to device on it because the code tells me
I can article two ten and you can still go look all that stuff up
in the code, and you're gonna be looking in two ten dot twenty three,
and you'll be looking at two ten dot twenty one, and you're going
to be seeing limitations on the branch. You're gonna be looking at the receptacle
ratings. There's a bunch of tables around there. At the end of the
day, you can't backstab a fifteen app rated device that's got backstabs for fourteen
gauge. If you're gonna be putting twelve gage on it, then you know,
you're gonna have to wrap the screw right. So at the end of
the day it takes skill to understand that. Sometimes you just can't use the
backstab. But if it's all fourteen gage and you strip the installation off properly
as gauged on the device, then there is no problem. Now, just
because I might have some that that burn up, I got equally amount that
burn up because of the screw on the side where it was you know,
too much pressure was put on it twisted it too tight and it reamed it
out. But you really caught until later when it starts cycling that heat of
load. Then it comes loose and you know, oh it melts down and
it melts the whole side of the device down. Well, that was become
an improper screw, you know. And you know, half the time when
people are talking something anyway, they think they're doing it right, and then
they check it and it's actually either overtorked or undertorked, and undertorking is just
as bad as overtorking. Okay, so you know, so again to answer
this question, it came in. It was Paul, what is your opinion
on the new style of receptacles with the way GOOS integrated, and are you
still oding the opinion that backstabbing is okay? Thanks in advance. I am
still under the opinion and always will be under the opinion. And you can
call me what you want. Stopped listening to my podcast, stop watching my
videos, stop getting my courses. I don't care. I'm here to tell
you this is what the NEC says. One ten dot three B install it
per its listing instructions, and those instructions and the device allows for backstab.
If you personally don't want to do it, that's on you. But don't
go on social media and start telling people there was one guy on there on
social media, and you go to my account, you'll see where I commented
on it. Then you can actually click because I do edit him. You
can click it in and watch his video. He basically says that if you're
electrician who backstab and you get caught backstabbing, you should be fired. Really
really, I mean, come on, I'm gonna fire you because you're using
a product in accordance with its listing, just because you might have an opinion
on something that you might have ran into, which doesn't really affect the full
spectrum of the industry. Know how many devices are sold I hesitate to say
on a daily basis, but annual basis, we're talking millions, okay,
between multiple manufacturers that allow for backstabbing. So again, typically the backstab,
well we know it's basically limited to fourteen gage. Now with these new devices
that are coming out with the Wagos built into them, obviously the manufacturers of
the devices are now working hand in hand with WAGO, everybody's sharing a little
bit of the pot. You know, the sizes are liable to get larger
now, allow for you to have twelve gage, possibly even bigger. So
I think weigos are proven. I think those devices are tested and evaluated,
and they're available on the market. Trust me, you could not sell them
if they weren't evaluated. You couldn't sell the devices if they weren't evaluated.
With backstab, whether you have a personal strong feeling for or against so rather
than say I would never do this, and then you say, you just
do ubra and if you want to backstab, you backstab. If you want
to wrap screws, you rap screws. That is totally a personal preference.
It's no different then whether somebody asks receptacle grounds up or grounds down. It
doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I ain't now. Somebody will say yeah,
but it does. In Chicago. If we turn it to the side,
you can't have the hot side up. You have to have the neutral
side up. Whatever, whatever. Or they might say no. But if
it's a healthcare facility and we got metal cover plates that we need the ground
up in case the metal cover plate comes off, it'll fall down onto the
ground and conductor instead of falling down and shorting between the hot and neutral.
Okay, whatever I got you, that's fine. It might be in a
standard, it might be in a spec, it might be in a local
rule. But we're talking National Electrical Code, which is a minimum safety standard.
You want to go above that standard because of some local change, go
for it. Go for it. Or you want to a ration now that
makes it safer in your mind so that you can sleep at night, go
for it. But it's that same electrician who will say I would never backstab
is the same one. It's going out there and they're fifteen feet from a
panel where they could cut the circuit off. Yet they're gonna work on it
live because they want to pound their chest because I'm an electrician. No,
come on, really, there's no need to work on anything live, never
a reason in a dwelling application, unless you're doing diagnostic testing with the vote
meter or something like that. Other than that, if you're actually getting into
the system and working on it, then de energize it, put it in
a safe condition, and then you can safely work on equipment. You work
faster, more confident, more diligent. You don't have to worry about whether
you're gonna get shocked or not. And so you've got your mind working on
too many things. I just want to focus on getting the task done,
So de energize it. Don't have to be a superman. Okay. Now,
if you're in a room and you see the switch and it's a disconnect,
it's going to cut the power to say illuminaire, and you're working on
it, well, go over to the switch, turn it off, put
some tape over it so nobody can turn it back on. Obviously it's within
your sight, and then you're killing power to that and then you can,
but at least you're putting some precaution in place. There was another video upon
TikTok that I commented on that, and if you want to get a kind
of a chuckle, go watch my TikTok's there's this one guy who was outside
and he was saying, well, and you don't want to go back inside
to turn the breaker off, And he proceeded to show you how you your
work on it outside live. First of all, he was outside, so
you have to have context. Could it be drizzling, could it be raining?
Because because the could he be on a conductive surface? Does he have
protective gloves on? What is he doing? Because at the end of the
day, it only takes a tenth of an amp to kill you, and
that tenth of an app can come from any circuit within the dwelling. So
again, I know I can hear you out there saying, Paul, you're
just a foody duddy. I've worked on live circuits forever. Well, good
for you. Here's the problem with putting that on TikTok or any other social
media. You're great, and I have no doubt you're amazing, but you're
gonna have somebody come along that has half your skill or quarter of your skill,
and they're gonna or a handyman or just anybody working on a circuit.
Will you come along and see a video like that where somebody explains how to
work on something live, and then they're going to try it? Now.
The reason I'm telling you this is because I've been in business for thirty some
years. I have worked as expert witness on court cases. I've been involved
in litigation. And let me tell you what. If somebody will sue you,
they will sue you for anything. So when you go posting up on
social media about working on something live and somebody watches that video, I can
tell you if I was a lawyer right now and my client got shocked,
I would be searching for any social media posts where it said somebody could work
on something live, and I would slap them with the lawsuit. Because that's
where we already day. In this woke society, everybody wants a free ride,
right from reparations for people. Any dude, you haven't had slavery for
how many years? And nobody living today was a slave? Okay, so
reparations easy handout homeless people will easy handout people that don't want to get a
job, easy handout government assistance to pay for your college, easy handout.
You want too many damn things for free out there, folks. Electricians don't
work that way. We work for what we got, Okay. So the
problem with putting stuff like that out there is now, if somebody gets hurt
because you, as an electrician, said it was okay to work on something
live and proceeded to explain how to do it, all you've done is open
yourself up for liability. So unless you have a disclaimer on there, and
that will only protect you so much saying we're all work done by license,
electrician, do not attempt this on your own. As a disclaimer, you
might think you'll never get sued. But if I had to give advice as
a consultant to somebody, I would say, well, if you ever do
get shocked and your family's going to sue somebody, just go to TikTok and
find some videos that showed electricians showing you how to work on things, and
I would sue them. I would sue them for your pain and suffering and
your loss because nobody should be telling people how to work on things live.
We don't tell you how to do your own surgery, right, we don't
tell you how to remove your own appendix. Kay, Obviously you can do
it yourself. You could do a lot of things, but electricity is not
one of them that you want to have somebody go messing with. And here
we have people on social media telling people to work on shit live. That's
just not right. It's lazy. Just go turn it off. You might
be the best electrician in the world, you might be the problem with it
and you can do you. I don't really care you, do you?
That's fine for me even to this day. As a practice with all of
my electricians in the past when I owned my companies, the concept was you
do not work on things energize unless you can justify. We're not talking about
a live work order. We're not talking about industrial applications. We're not talking
I'm talking even dwellings. There is no need to work on something live.
Heay. So at the end of the day, when you terminate your service,
conductors into your panel and now you have the barriers for your service.
Disconnecting means your barriers, so you have those live parts are insulated. You
turn the main breaker off and everything below that is dead. You'd be careful,
okay, you have precautions. It's no different. I'm not going to
leave a brand circuit hot and then go out and try to work on it.
What's the point too lazy to go back and turn it off? That's
okay, you do you. If you want to be Superman, you'd be
Superman. If you want to call me what you want to call me,
you could call me. I don't really care, y'all know by now,
I don't care what people think of me. I really don't give a damn.
I'm here to teach you. I'm here to help you learn, I'm
here to help you be safe. I'm here to teach the National Electrical Code.
I'm not here to make friends. If you're we are friends, that's
great. I mentor plenty of people. But I also don't take any bs.
There's no need to work on it, live, no need to try
to play Superman pound your chest. Just don't do it. It's not necessary.
All right, folks, that's it for this episode, Take care of
stay safe. Hopefully got something out of that, and hopefully I answered your
question. Didn't rant too much, but probably did. Till next time,
folks, Stay safe, God bless ask