Made a decision. Oh thanks Sunny sum On, I hadasione n. What's
up, everybody. Welcome to our Thursday episode with we have a special guest,
Kate Anthony and Studio. She's got the Divorce Survival Guide podcast which I
started listening to and I love it. Which people know that I just came
out of a divorce. What I don't know if you know that? That's
so, why are you hiding stuff from us? That spoiler alert? It
was just finalized recently. Congratulations, thank you, thank you. Also,
she has a book it's called The D Word and it just came out right
in December. Yep, yeah, congratulations, thank you. Yeah, I
think a lot of this book is going to help a lot of people.
I'm sure our idy is helping a lot of people. Oh yeah, I
mean I just started listening to your podcast recently and just just a few episodes
I listened to. It was extremely eye opening and really helpful. I'm so
glad. Yeah, because you know, people go through a divorce. Stephanie
doesn't know, but it's it is a trend. This is like a whole
new transit, especially when you know, I mean I was with the person
for twenty five years, right, you know, my like pretty much my
whole adult life. So then you're kind of like, are you starting over?
Well, you are starting over, but it's you know, it is
a new period. It's nice to have a show like yours that people can
come and listen to and feel like, you know, you're not alone kind
of thing. Absolutely, because I never thought about it, like, oh,
maybe I need some support after this. I don't know, I just
relied on my friends. I think I did the same thing. I was
like, I'm fine, I'm fine, and you'll probably appreciate this stuff,
and you're like I was like I'm fine. And then after like ten years
of like my drinking increasing and like, you know, things get I was
finally like, I think maybe there's some trauma that I dealt with. Maybe
there's something to this right, right, So it is important to acknowledge and
be intentional about the transition and how hard it is and all of and to
heal right, because I know, I when I got out, I was
like, whohoo ah, I'm out, I'm done. I'm fine. And
then you know, ten years later, I was like, oh, look,
I don't actually think i'm fine. I wonder too if there's a misconception
that if the woman is the one who asked for the divorce, that like,
what what are you complaining about? Like you're the one that left.
Like I think people see a woman who if the guy is cheating and he
leaves you, like, then you get to be a victim. But if
you're the one who made the decision and then people don't feel sorry for you,
I think there's something. Yeah, there's some of that, but also
we do that to ourselves. The number of women that I talk to in
my Facebook groups or wherever, and they're like, I wanted this? Why
am I so unhappy? Why am I grieving? Why can't I get over
it? Why am I crying all the time? And my first response is,
first of all, nobody wants this. Nobody wants this. I just
got married thinking like, oh, I can't wait to get divorced now,
right, nobody wants it. But also there is a transition, and there
is grief in every transition, even the ones that are exciting, even you
know, graduating high school, right, there's grief in that we're going you
know, maybe you're going to college and you're leaving your home and your childhood
bedroom or whatever it is, right, even if it's joyous, there's grief.
There's very little about divorce that's joyous, right, other than perhaps sometimes
that freedom of like I can be myself. Finally, I'm not walking on
eggshells. There is a lot of freedom depending on the marriage that you were
in. But you know, yeah, I think there's judgment from outside,
but even more so internally. What's wrong with me? Why am I grieving?
Right? Let's talk about I think this is really interesting speaking about like
walking on eggshells? Right? Do you feel like I feel like a lot
of people convince themselves that this is just how relationships are because I notise,
right, And it must be hard to help people, like as a coach
see that, Like, oh, you know that some things are are compromises,
but how do you know and how do you help people see that?
Like, No, there's a lot of stuff that like you could be so
much happier right now, Like you shouldn't have to put up with that.
That's not normal, right. I think part of it is if you're compromising
yourself health, that's a problem. You can compromise things, you can compromise,
you know who's gonna you? I think it's it's also a matter of
negotiation. And in a negotiation, both people come to the table, they're
both giving, they're both taking whatever is, whatever that is. But when
you're compromising yourself and you're compromising who you are, and you're compromising your values
and you're compromising your highest self, that's not okay because the relationship should be
exalting those things that the relationship should be lifting those things up right right,
those the relationship should be feeding who you are, not taking away from it.
Yeah, the compromising yourself sometimes I feel and this is just from friends,
and like a lot of people that I know seems like their partner might
have like a personality disorder. And you know, the personality disorders can be
so tricky. Yes, so you end up thinking like a lot of stuff
is your own fault and that you're just not being like loving enough, or
you're not being accepting enough, or you're wanting crazy things or you know,
and then the partner who has a personality disorder, it can turn things around
on you and gaslight you and make you feel like, well, I guess
I'm just being crazier. I guess I'm being irrational, Like, how do
you help somebody see that, Like, no, you're not you know what
I mean? Yes, I do, Yeah, you just you just had
someone on your show that talked about narcissism and being a doctor Romney. I
had doctor Romney on talking. It was really interesting. She's she's like the
queen of narcissism and you know, so, narcissism itself is not a personality
disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder. Narcissism really exists on a
spectrum. But if we're talking about personality disorders, right, this is a
fixed thing. This is not something that is treatable. It's not something that
you can change. There is some some theory and research that that borderline personality
disorder can be can you can You can be helped if you have borderline,
but again, you have to want it, and most people are not diagnosed.
There's a the diagnosis rate for narcissistic personality disorder is really low, not
because they don't exist, but because they're not seeking help. Nobody walking they're
fine. I think they're fine. Everybody else is the problem. Everyone else
is the problem, and they might be diagnosed if they go in for something
else like a you know, addiction or something, and then the diagnosis is
is co occurring, but they're really not seeking treatment because they really don't think
that there's anything wrong. But we as the victims, as the people in
relationship with these with these people, because the partner is always saying, there's
ei, there's something wrong with me. This sounds like a you problem.
You're the problem. If you would just then we would. And if you
could just shift your way of being or change your voice, or you know,
drop a few pounds or you know, get a boop job like,
then I would be attracted to you. Then I would want to spend time
with you. Then you would be good enough for me all of the things
right, and it, you know, whittles away our sense of self and
who we are. But because we are coming to the relationship as normal people,
right as you know, with who are capable of empathy and and exchange,
right, we think that we are. We think that every they your
partner also has the same worldview. I love you, I want to be
in relationship with you, and so I think that that's what you want too.
But when your partner has a personality disorder, especially narcissistic personality, disorder.
They want power and control over you. That's all they want. And
so whatever they tell you needs to change about you in order for you to
be good enough or enough or get the love right. It's always changing because
you hit the target and like that wasn't quite right, right, because then
it's the game's done. So what you're you know, you're constantly but you're
you are trying to connect in the way that you did in the beginning,
which, by the way, was a game to them, right, it
wasn't real love and connection. But you we have a hard time understanding that
different worldview that someone is just out for power and control. We really think
that, like, well, I'm in this relationship for love and connection.
I think I thought you were in it for love and connection. So we're
just trying to get back to that, right. And what's very difficult to
recognize, and what I have to help women sort of wrap their brains around,
is that the thing that you were sold never existed. The person you
fell in love with was a mask, and that was a game, and
that wasn't real, right, And that feels so real to them, that
to the idea that it wasn't real to the other person is devastating, devastating,
and so I guess you to your question Stuffanie, like how do I
help people? Right? How? And a lot of it is education,
right, I really have sort of a broad three three step process, right,
I don't I don't know into like processes necessarily. But the first the
first thing we have to do is the self work to really start to reconnect
with that part of ourselves that we've lost, which is hard to do while
you're still in the relationship right right, But if you're already questioning and you're
starting to hear that voice and you're starting to go there's something not right here,
we can start to work with that self connection, reconnecting with who actually
am I? Who am I now right as an adult, as a mother,
and what are my values? Right? And that could be very enlightening
for people. When they do the values work with me, they're like,
oh my god, this is just like we don't share values at all,
and that's like whoa. And then the next step is really the education piece,
like this is what abuse looks and feels like, this is what narcissism
looks and feels like, this is what like let's take this, like,
let's get educated on this stuff and see if it applies. And very often
it's like when you put that overlay like onto the relationship, it's like,
oh that everything makes sense now, now it all makes sense. Yeah.
Sometimes sometimes it's weird because like I was in a relationship many many years ago,
and it was so hard because I'm like, it's resonating with me what
you're saying about the beginning, because the beginning was so different. The first
couple months was so different than the rest of the relationship, and I felt
so focused on and loved and like and I felt the excitement and I felt
like, oh, I just we really get along so well and have the
same sense of humor, and I had the most fun. And then it
changed where I was always kind of doing something wrong, or I was you
know, it wasn't enough, or I wasn't paying the right kind of attention
to him, or I was paying too much attention to him, and I
started to get and it really made it. It tapped into old real and
security, so I got really insecure and needy. And I always say,
even looking back, I never would have left that relationship like he left me
because I got so addicted to like the any validation. So then he got
real really inconsistent. Yeah, like sometimes he was nice to me, but
sometimes he was super distant, and then that would make me go, oh
my god, what am I doing wrong? How can I be better?
How can I please him? And it was it was such a negative.
The end was so negative, and he left me and then very rare,
right, which is very rare because what you're talking about, that cycle and
that addictive cycle is a trauma bond. So it's that you're addicted to the
high, right You're And it's interesting, we're actually not even just addicted to
the dopamine hit that we get. We're actually addicted to the anticipation of it,
right, And so we're waiting for that to come. We know it's
coming, we know it's coming, we know it's coming, and like there
it is, right, and then and we're actually addicted to that mean hit,
right, and the anticipation of it. And then they take it away.
And so would they be addicted to that? What on their side would
it seem like they could be addicted to having somebody giving me, Oh,
they're addicted to the power and control, I see. But weirdly, this
guy, yeah, he left you that's very right. He loved me,
and also he's then he ended up married to his next relationship and they're still
married, they have kids. Like I don't know anything about his relationship,
but like that then makes you feel insecure about yourself even more because you're like,
well, maybe it was me. Maybe I was causing this behavior because
he's certainly able to have a great relationship with somebody else. Well, and
I think, you know, I don't know enough about this relationship or whatever.
But it also sounds like he had some avoidant tendencies, right, and
it's triggered your anxious attachment, And so maybe he married someone who was more
avoidant than him or was more secure, and so it works differently, right,
So it might not have been the same intentional sort of personality disorder driven
thing or narcissistic driven thing that we're talking about. I mean, it could
have just been that he's avoidant or disorganized, which is even more like chaotic.
What's that disorganized attachment? Is? Like there, it's all they're all
over the place, so right, they're all in and then you start to
come in, and then they go all out and then the look but they
want it, but they don't want it right, so you feel like he
was that's how he went. You start to feel crazy because he would cry
and say how much he loved me, but he's just not sure, like
he's just not one hundred percent sure the one yes right. But then he'd
be like, but but but you're everything. I love you so much,
and then then he'd be like, you're too much. I need space.
Yeah that sounds pretty disorganized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's a
little different from like narcissism or I don't think he was a narcissist. Yeah,
yeah, but I still really played into a lot of blaming myself and
like how can I be better? And I felt addicted to the relationship.
So what it was that called disorganized disorganized attachment? Attachment? Yeah, it's
one of the attachments. You know. There's a great, amazing woman on
Instagram called the attachment nerd Eli Hartwood, and she's amazing and she she's so
good on the attachment stuff. And we just talked about this on my podcast.
I think it's coming out this week. Maybe I don't remember, but
it's it's really interesting how that there are different names, different depending on whose
study your you know, whose research you're following, but uh, yeah,
it's a deep, rich body of yeah science, let's should we take a
quick break, Yeah, let's take a break. So I have a question
I think a lot of women struggle with, like how do I know when
this relationship is more bad than good? Do you have any like signs?
Or I know you did say the thing about if you're if you're giving up
like yourself, But that's that's vague, right, Like, yes, are
there any concrete things that like how much fighting or how much or like you
know to help women decide? So I think what I in my in my
book, Yeah, yes, of course have a right do you have a
healthy relationship checklist? Okay? Which I think is important because what it asks
you to do instead of looking at the relationship and what it has, and
like, you know, what does a healthy relationship look like? I don't
know. My relationship looks different from that. Right, how do you feel
in this relationship? This is really should be about how you feel? And
in the checklist, I have things like I feel emotionally safe in my relationship?
Right, and if you're in a healthy happy relation First of all,
people who are in healthy happy relationships, not asking should I stay or should
I go? They're not waking up at three o'clock in the morning going,
I don't know is this relationship working for me? Like like you're happy,
You're fine, right, but that's really true. I sometimes do take those
quizzes on like huff po or like if your husband is doing these one of
these eight things, you're not in a good relationship. And I know I
am in a good relationship, but I will take that. I will look
at look at it and way and right yeah, and get confirmed that you're
actually fine. Right right? And so people who I like taking random quiz
right, that has to do with the quiz, not John right right,
right, right right? So right? Do you feel emotionally safe? Are
you able to freely express yourself and your opinions are heard and honored? Right?
You know? Do you feel physically safe in your relationship? Right?
You know it's a big one. I feel completely free to be myself around
my partner. Let me tell you I sure did not. This is the
walking on eggshells thing, right, Like, do you ever feel like you're
walking on eggshells in your marriage? Like? Never? Right now? Right,
you can be, but I did in previous relationships very exactly. You
know, you should feel safe to haven't express your feelings. Yeah right,
if you say I feel I feel sad today or I feel kind of bummed
about the way that you talked to me earlier, you know, instead of
it being turned around on you, it's like, oh my god, I
can't believe you'd say that to me. Now I feel you know, and
now suddenly we're talking about your feelings and my feelings are gone. What right?
You know, in a healthy relationship, when you say I feel bummed
about the way you talked to me earlier, their response should be oh my
god, honey, I'm so sorry I was such a dick, right,
or like I did not mean that at all. That wasn't like I was
just my head was you know, up my ass or whatever? Or I'll
give you a third option for that, because I have had this situation with
John where I'm like, I will say that John can sometimes get upset with
me for being upset, okay, but I also have to work on my
own like listening, Like it's sort of like the thing that's healthy is that
we both come to it. I feel free to say, listen, I
don't like the way you talk to me or I don't like the way that
happened in that fight, and then John will say he will say, okay,
well I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know, I also felt not
heard or whatever. And then I feel like I have to be willing to
also look at myself and go like, sure, yeah, how am I
coming at this? But in the end, we both always he really does
try to. He's like, I want to hear that, right, I
want to hear why you're upset. I want to hear your point of view.
I also want you to reciprocity, right, also with these guys,
because I you know, I've got a lot of friends too, and in
their marriage it's like, you know, I get mad at something that he
said or whatever, and then now he's mad because I'm mad. Right,
there's well, it's like that's like a common thread and it's a lot of
people. I think it's an ego wounding thing. It's I can't be wrong.
And it's also you know, I think one of the bigger issues,
like it's of a more systemic issue, right, which is we traditionally,
historically do not hold space for men to have feelings other than rage, right,
And so the I think guilt is a softer feeling or you know,
feeling remorse. It's I think it's a harder space for men to lean into.
We're so used to feeling that right, we're guilty all the time right
now, and I think that's a harder space for men to lean into,
and so their first response is going to be defense, defense, or or
anger. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, it's not it's not
good, it's not healthy, and it's doing damage to millions of relationships for
sure. But I do think that that's you know, an answer to the
question why do they do that? Right? Pretty much, we don't give
them space to be much of anything else right, because if they are right,
God forbid, then they're labeled one of the two worst things a man
can possibly be, right a girl or gay. So right, right and
right, and that's how we tend to socialize boys. You know, man
up, don't be a pussy. Right. So, when people are going
through okay, they decided to go okay, let's is it usually the it's
usually the person that's feeling taken advantage of by the other person or or like
ause you just said to Stephanie, that rarely happens with he broke up with
with he broke up with her. Oh yeah, right, Yes, with
a narcissist, they usually oh yeah, I mean listen, as soon as
you try to break up with a narcissist, they are they're going to do
usually pull out all the stops. There, the love bombing is going to
start again. The promises. The person who was never going to go to
therapy is now one hundred percent willing to go to therapy. They'll do anything,
they'll right now, they see the light. Now they understand they're reading
the books. Right. This person has never picked up a book. They've
never right, because it's the ultimate They're losing, right, their supply,
right, so the narcissistic supply. You are the supply. And if you're
finally like I cut it off, they're going to scramble, right. They
only they tend to abuse only to the level at which they need to need
to in order to maintain maintain power and control. And so as soon as
they feel like they've absolutely lost it, they're going to pull out all the
stops. None of that is real, None of that is real. They
will be on the best behavior, they'll fix everything in the house. They'll
come home with flowers. They'll do all of the things. They won't actually
call the therapist. They won't actually like because what I tell my clients to
do is like, Okay, just sit back and wait, sit back and
wait and see what he does. Don't listen to the words, see what
he does. And if you have an ounce of a fuck left to give,
okay, like maybe maybe you go to that therapy appointment, but don't
make it. And it usually lasts about two or three weeks and then it
goes back to normal of course. Interesting, yeah, Yeah. The thing
about narcissist and this is this is very hard for us to wrap our brains
around narcissists, true narcissists, Right, someone who's been diagnosed as a narcissist.
It's a very you know, we can look at a lot of set
of behaviors and be like, uh, yeah, right, it's pretty clear
they can't change, right, right, And it's that is the hardest thing
for us to wrap our brains around when you're in relationship with them, because
first of all, they promise that they can. It seems like they can,
they do for a little bit, and there's nothing and there's there's nothing
that we can't change because we've spent our whole time in the relationship changing all
sorts of things about us. But they actually cannot change. And they can
learn new behaviors, they can learn what empathy looks like, but they can't
feel it. They cannot be in the relationship the way that you and I
are. And that's a really hard thing for us to and like begin to
understand. And what about people that have children in the middle of all this
and you know, uh, they grow up, you know, like,
how is it how is it navigating a divorce with children with and then what
if you see like the same behaviors. Yeah, I'm not saying it's like,
I'm not I'm just saying in general, sure, what if you're seeing
like the same behaviors that the way they treated you in a relationship that they're
now doing like, you know, a little manipulation the children. Yeah.
Sure. So there's two things that I would say about that. First of
all, all children are narcissistic by nature. Their prefrontal cortex has not developed
yet. They are not capable of the full breadth of empathy and any all
of that stuff that we are as grown ups, right, I mean,
my kids are No, No, I mean totally so. But that's I
understand why you would say that my kids are pretty perfect. Yeah, just
kidding, go ahead, I mean same, but you know for everybody else,
Yeah, for other people. Yeah. So I hear this all the
time with women in my group. They're so scared, they're so scared that
their kids are going to be just like their ex Right, and you're talking
about or are you saying what if you see the partner ex part I'm talking
about I'm talking about all of it. And yeah, there's the component of
are they going to grow up to be like that and have those traits?
But I'm also talking about the way the way the person treated you in the
marriage. You can start to see him treating treating the children. Yeah,
with a little bit of they're going to be the supply now yea. So
it's two things, right, and I think so the so the first one,
let me just finish addressing the children, like the children behaving and mimicking
the behaviors and all of those things. So actually, and I think this
is true of both things. The very best thing that you can do for
your children when you are married to a narcissist or an abuser, which are
not always the same. All narcissists are abusive, not all abusers are narcissists.
And so when you're when you're married to someone like this, the very
best thing you can do is to get out. And the mistake that a
lot of women make is that they stay in because they feel like they're trying
to protect the children, and they feel like they're trying to create a container
where they can come in and run interference or smooth things over or protect right
and actually what they're doing is keeping their children in it twenty four to seven.
And so they're creating a blueprint for a relationship for their children that is
really toxic. If you get out and you have two separate homes, even
if one of them is toxic, and even if one of them is full
of narcissism and abuse and all of the things, if you have one home
that you create that is full of love and empathy and kindness and safety,
you're giving your children the gift of perspective. You give them a place for
their central nervousness to settle, You give them a model for what love actually
looks and feels like, and they start to notice the difference in how they
feel, and they're able to choose interesting, right, they're able to choose
down the line. I feel safe at mom's house, I feel heard,
right, I feel seen. I feel controlled and manipulated and yelled at and
scared at dads, you know, and I love my dad, right and
right like of course it's very complicated and so so that's you know, in
both cases, right if the if the abuser is abusing the child emotionally,
unfortunately the legal system does not care about that. But you have a place,
they have a place that they can go for safety. Right. So
the very often you remove yourself as the supply. Yeah, they're going to
turn to the kid and they're going to try and get the kid to be
the supply. And so having a kid in therapy is very important. Teaching
a kid about boundaries is very important. They will come to you and say,
I'm scared Dad said this, or don't tell Dad this, and you
know, you can say, you know when I have learned that when talking
with Dad, these are really important boundaries. And here's the way I set
those boundaries with Dad to protect myself, right, And so you work with
it that way. When they start mimicking those behaviors because they want to align.
You have to remember that you are the safe parent. They you love
them unconditionally, so they can behave however the hell they need or want to
at your house, and very often when they come back from the other house,
they're going to let it all out on you because you're the safe parent,
and very often they're aligning with the unsafe parent because that love is conditional
and they know that what the conditions are. And that can be really,
really hard for the safe parent otherwise also known as the protective parent to deal
with because suddenly they might feel like it might seem like they're abusing you in
much the same way. And so your job. There's an amazing woman named
doctor Christine Cocciola, and she works with protective parents and she does all this
work and she's a good friend of mine. She's amazing. She's been on
my podcast a few times, and she deals with this about how to be
a protective parent and how to hold that space for your children without you know,
calling them abusers, right, because that's the last thing and the most
terrifying thing, and it's really hard, but you have to kind of become
their therapist in many ways and just have this sort of unconditional empathy for what
they're going through, even when it feels like you're being like shit on.
It's hard, right, very hard. When I was a kid and my
parents got divorced, and I a couple of years into it, remember that,
and I only I only heard about what this is when I got older.
But my father was a narcissist and my mother was probably the supplier,
although and I don't but he was like very grandiose and narcissistic. But when
they divorced, he I felt sorry for him because you know, and he
it was emotional like I felt like he would say, like, you're all
I have. You're you're you're my best friend. You're the only person who
I can talk to. And it was so suffocating, of course, and
I wish that I didn't have to like spend time, and I felt responsible
right exactly, well, and it came his parented me up. Yeah,
I had the same thing. Yeah, when you were talking about with the
kids and the safe and I had the same day. I was thinking my
dad was the safe place. My mother was the narcissist. Because it's not
like I mean, it's not necessarily the guy all the time, and see
it could be other way wound because my mom was a true narcissist in a
crazy way too, by the way, but but my dad was the safe
space for me when they got divorced, and then I started to resent my
mother because I had to take care of her. I had to look after
her. She had me like wrapped around, you know. And then what
happens do you I don't know, do people usually go and find their love
of their life and look for that person, you know? Or I don't
know, do they go and repeat it like because they had a narcissistic parent,
as do they find a narcissistic partner? Right? I mean usually right?
Yeah, yeah, And that's also there's there is also this gray area,
like not everybody is a diagnosable like a trust that's abusive. Like there's
so much. There's such a spectrum, right, and you can have you
can be with somebody who you're like, this doesn't feel good, but they're
not doing something. They're not physically hurting me. I feel I feel safe
in my home. They're not gonna but they're not giving me like but they're
always right. They don't really listen to me. They don't support the things
that I want to do. They make me feel like I'm never enough,
Like there's all these things that it's but there's but they're still like, right,
it doesn't look from the outside like, oh, this guy is a
terrible guy, and not everybody would agree that they're a narcissist. Right,
but like what you and I feel like that's a much trickier place to be
when you're like it seems like my friend's marriages are better than mine, but
I don't know that my husband is doing enough shit to like leave him and
like disrupt my whole life. Right, how bad does it have to be?
Right? And so what I always say to women is that you deserve
to be happy. You deserve to be happy, Like there's no why do
we feel like we all well, you know it's not that bad. I
guess I'll just stuff. Oh my god, this is your life. This
is it. This is your life, period, end of story, this
one right here? Right? Is that really what you want? And is
this is what you want for your kids? Because they will repeat it?
Right, Yeah, let's take another quick break. We're back. I got
so when you get at let's say, okay, you get out of a
relationship. I was listening to your show and your guest was talking about uh
detox at one year detox, and can you explain what she was talking about?
Well, she was saying that when you get out of a relationship,
like I think any relationship really like a long term intense relationship, but in
particular a relationship with a narcissist, you need a year before you get back
into, before you even start dating. You have to find out who you
are when you've been in a relationationship with someone and the whole time it has
been like a systematic deconstructing of yourself and an abandonment of self. You know,
so you've got it from from outside and from within, right, Like,
but that's necessary, right, there's no there's no wrong, right,
it's not wrong. It's it's self preservation. This, you know, consistent
slow abandoning of self and denying of who you are. You need time to
rebuild it. You need at least a year of coming home after work and
just like being with yourself and your cats and your journal and like your kids
half the time. If that's where what it is, right, like to
fill that time with self generation as opposed to you know I did, right.
I was drinking a lot, I was shopping a lot, keeping busy.
I was having parties, I was going out, I was dating,
I was having a lot of sex, you know. And it took a
toll. It took a huge toll. And then, you know, ten
years later when I quit drinking and by it was all still there, all
the trauma just waiting, right, And so this the intentionality of taking a
year to reconnect with self and who you are now in this new realm and
to reparent yourself because yeah, probably you got to this relationship because of where
you came from. And so now we're rewriting the script. And by the
way, you're stopping the generational trauma, you're stopping the pattern. You're breaking
the cycle. You are breaking the cycle here and now, and that takes
something for yourself, right, right, So you and uh you also,
I you you have a website where people can do the survey, which I
did. Oh you did? Yeah, it's tell tell us. The website
is Kaitanthony dot com slash which so which slash survey or slash where you get
a curated thing, a curated podcast playlist. Yes, that's oh, I
slash playlist. That slash playlist, Kia dot com slash playlist. Yeah,
it's a cure. I have a curated podcast. Playlists have two hundred and
fifty some odd episodes, right and so and and there. Some of them
are for people who are, you know, happ getting a amicable divorce.
Some of them people who are trying to decide whether to stay or go,
and they're being abused in there, right, And so if you sign up
for that, take a little quiz, then I'll give you a list of
like twelve episodes that are for you, right. Cool? Yeah, I
love that. I love that. Yeah, just sign I know. If
we did at mess I Hate my Kids, Okay, well that would be
episodes, yeah, exactly all the way through. Yeah, it's really cool.
And so you're a divorce coach, and so what are some of the
like what does that mean? Like, okay, like a therapist and maybe
I need to like, so I do a bunch of things. Are you
a post divorce yea post divorce I do? I do? And so I'm
a co parenting specialist. I'm certified code parenting specialist. I'm a domestic violence
victims advocate. I get I just keep getting certified in various things because I'm
a high conflict divorce coach, so I work with people going through and helping
them create effective strategies for going through this, especially if it's going to be
high conflict, to try to like minimize as much conflict as possible. I
do work with recovery divorce recovery, because there's so much on that other side
to deal with. I help women decide whether to stay or go. That's
a huge you know. That's my book really is about making the decision and
learning what what's healthy, what's not healthy? What you know, what's okay
with you? It's not okay with you. You're going to get a lot
of new clients from this. Well what are you doing today? About an
hour? How and so? How? So you got divorced? I just
want to know how this came about for you too, like a little bit
about you. So you got divorced, you had it, it was a
ship show for a while. Well no, it was a ship show in
the marriage. So I basically spent and this is very common. I spent
a good like two to four years going I don't something's wrong, you know,
I mean, if I'm honest, it was the whole ten years.
But you know, I just kept thinking that I could fix it, right.
And when I was trying to decide, I was really looking for a
burning bush. I really was. I was like, come on, somebody,
like, you know, I don't know, Morgan Freeman, somebody come
into my come and tell me what to do. And I asked a really
close friend of mine, and we were in group couples therapy together, and
because that's the thing, group couples therapy. And I was like, and
he had been divorced before, and so I said, like, tell me,
how do you know when you know? And his response is, when
you know, you'll know. And I was like, but I don't know,
and I did when when I did know, I finally I finally knew,
right. But the problem I was having at that time was I was
I was successful. I was an actor, I was on a hit TV
show, I was doing all the stuff. Like on the outside, right,
everything looked real good, but on the inside, I was like vacant.
I was kind of step thirty, right. I describe myself as a
head on legs. I just had no access to myself because of that systematic
denying that I had to do in order to be in this marriage, and
it was very abusive. It was a very emotionally abusive marriage. And then
when I knew, I knew right, and then it was this process of
getting out and then the divorce was actually great. But honestly, it's I
think it's a crapshoot. I think it was just a stroke of luck that
I was divorcing someone who it was more important to him to look like the
greatest divorced dad ever than it was to continue to try to control me and
ruin my life. But that's really like, I don't know. I don't
know that you can and I've been this a long time. I don't know
that you can determine that. I mean, there are certain things that you
can determine that this person is going to make your life a living hell,
absolutely, but sometimes you really don't know which way they're going to go.
Right. But then you said that you were kind of a mess post divorce.
Yes, I didn't know. I was, yeah, because everything seemed
fine. So it was like, okay, great, now we're going to
be best friends, right, And so it was a more denial, more
suppression, and while the abuse was spiking, like every single day, multiple
times a day. In the marriage, it would only it would only spike
maybe like every month or so in divorce, and I thought I could handle
that right. And eventually, you know, part of my process was going
back to school to become a coach. I was done with being an actor.
I'd been an actor for thirty years. I was done. I didn't
want to do it anymore. I'd three and a half year old. I'm
not gonna be driving in LA traffic to auditions and all over town, like,
forget it. And so I needed to figure out what the hell I
was going to do next. And everyone was like, you should be a
therapist, and I was like, I would rather put glass in my head.
And someone said, what about coaching? And I thought, oh,
that's interesting. And so I went to school and I went back to school
to become a coach. And I really enjoyed it and I was really good
at it. And so I started that process. And as I was learning
and doing that, I was regaining my sense of self. I was learning
who I was again and that what I was good at, and also learning
that there had to have been a better process. It was really feeling like
there had to have been a better process, then you'll know when you know,
and that if I could, I'd started learning more about domestic violence,
and I started learning more about the complexities of emotional abuse and course of control,
and that I really just wanted to help women get out of these toxic
and abusive relationships in a way that was better than, oh, you know,
hang out and maybe some day, some day you'll you'll know, right,
like there had to have been and that was sort of what's what became
what I do is just finding a better way, the antidote to when you
know, you'll know right. I also think, especially for women, some
women are not like sometimes this spouse is not that bad, right, but
and you can stay because you feel guilty because you're like, well, the
beginning of the relationship was great, but now I'm dealing with a guy that,
like, I mean, let's say it has an alcohol problem. But
it's not like they're not like a raging alcoholics. It's like but or things
that make them not the best partner. And then you do that for a
really long time, and then there's a I mean, I just I have
some friends that have gone through this where they're like, it's not that bad,
but it's not that good, right exactly, Like right, it's fine,
it's okay, And I kind of feel bad because I don't want to
leave him because for whatever reason, he has depression or he is dealing with
mental illness, or he's dealing with all these things. And like writers in
my book, O, n what if he's an addict or mentally ill?
My god, he's fine. Why can't I just be happy? Yeah?
Right? Yeah, I think that's so that's important the work you do for
that as well, exactly. And that's what I was saying before, like
like what do we realize that we deserve exactly right right exactly, and we're
so trained to believe that we you know, have to sacrifice everything, including
our happiness, our bodies, ourselves, like everything for the service of everybody
else. And you know, I call bullshit no more. Wow, this
has been like such a great uh and learning a lot. It's excellent.
Yeah, And so people can get the name of the book is the D
word, the D word making the ultimate decision about your marriage. It's everywhere.
I do have a page on my website Kateanthony dot com slash D word
that also gives you so ideas about how to get it in ways that might
be a little bit more subtle or secretive, because you know, so audible
Kindle Amazon, if you share an Amazon account with your spouse, buying this
book might not be safe, right, And so you're gonna so there's some
there are some ways that you can buy it, that you can find it
that might be a little bit more you know, safer at right, because
this is not the thing that you want showing up at your house suddenly and
then having conversations that you're not ready to have, right, or your spouse
looking at Amazon and going, oh, recently bought right exactly. And the
book does walk you through how to have the conversation, which is I have
a very specific formula for how to have the conversation because so many women are
like, I've tried to tell him like five times, I have this conversation
so many times, and he just like he won't agree. And you know,
my point is, this is not a conversation, right, right,
right, This is a declaration. You are stating a fact. You are
done with your marriage, you know, so do and you have the podcast.
I have a podcast, the Divorce Survival Guide podcast. Everything is on
my website Kateanthony dot com. You can also find me on Instagram at the
Divorce Survival Guide. Wow o kay Jazing, You're so great. I can't
wait to talk to you. I am. I will. Thank you Stephanie
for bringing her in. Yeah, okay, thank you everybody. Thanks Caylin,
thanks everybody. You're a parent, now, don't f it up. It's