1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:15,759 Made a decision. Oh thanks Sunny sum On, I hadasione n. What's 2 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:20,559 up, everybody. Welcome to our Thursday episode with we have a special guest, 3 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:27,600 Kate Anthony and Studio. She's got the Divorce Survival Guide podcast which I 4 00:00:27,719 --> 00:00:33,479 started listening to and I love it. Which people know that I just came 5 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,200 out of a divorce. What I don't know if you know that? That's 6 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:43,640 so, why are you hiding stuff from us? That spoiler alert? It 7 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,600 was just finalized recently. Congratulations, thank you, thank you. Also, 8 00:00:48,759 --> 00:00:52,479 she has a book it's called The D Word and it just came out right 9 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,439 in December. Yep, yeah, congratulations, thank you. Yeah, I 10 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,240 think a lot of this book is going to help a lot of people. 11 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,320 I'm sure our idy is helping a lot of people. Oh yeah, I 12 00:01:03,399 --> 00:01:07,439 mean I just started listening to your podcast recently and just just a few episodes 13 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,000 I listened to. It was extremely eye opening and really helpful. I'm so 14 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:18,439 glad. Yeah, because you know, people go through a divorce. Stephanie 15 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,840 doesn't know, but it's it is a trend. This is like a whole 16 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,519 new transit, especially when you know, I mean I was with the person 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,040 for twenty five years, right, you know, my like pretty much my 18 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,760 whole adult life. So then you're kind of like, are you starting over? 19 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,040 Well, you are starting over, but it's you know, it is 20 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:44,519 a new period. It's nice to have a show like yours that people can 21 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,640 come and listen to and feel like, you know, you're not alone kind 22 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,560 of thing. Absolutely, because I never thought about it, like, oh, 23 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,560 maybe I need some support after this. I don't know, I just 24 00:01:56,879 --> 00:02:00,239 relied on my friends. I think I did the same thing. I was 25 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,959 like, I'm fine, I'm fine, and you'll probably appreciate this stuff, 26 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:07,439 and you're like I was like I'm fine. And then after like ten years 27 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:14,039 of like my drinking increasing and like, you know, things get I was 28 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,639 finally like, I think maybe there's some trauma that I dealt with. Maybe 29 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,879 there's something to this right, right, So it is important to acknowledge and 30 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,719 be intentional about the transition and how hard it is and all of and to 31 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:32,719 heal right, because I know, I when I got out, I was 32 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,840 like, whohoo ah, I'm out, I'm done. I'm fine. And 33 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,759 then you know, ten years later, I was like, oh, look, 34 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:43,639 I don't actually think i'm fine. I wonder too if there's a misconception 35 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:47,199 that if the woman is the one who asked for the divorce, that like, 36 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,360 what what are you complaining about? Like you're the one that left. 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,240 Like I think people see a woman who if the guy is cheating and he 38 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,479 leaves you, like, then you get to be a victim. But if 39 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,840 you're the one who made the decision and then people don't feel sorry for you, 40 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:05,000 I think there's something. Yeah, there's some of that, but also 41 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:07,599 we do that to ourselves. The number of women that I talk to in 42 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,840 my Facebook groups or wherever, and they're like, I wanted this? Why 43 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,280 am I so unhappy? Why am I grieving? Why can't I get over 44 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,439 it? Why am I crying all the time? And my first response is, 45 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:21,479 first of all, nobody wants this. Nobody wants this. I just 46 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,719 got married thinking like, oh, I can't wait to get divorced now, 47 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:29,400 right, nobody wants it. But also there is a transition, and there 48 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:32,759 is grief in every transition, even the ones that are exciting, even you 49 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,919 know, graduating high school, right, there's grief in that we're going you 50 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,479 know, maybe you're going to college and you're leaving your home and your childhood 51 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:46,960 bedroom or whatever it is, right, even if it's joyous, there's grief. 52 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:53,400 There's very little about divorce that's joyous, right, other than perhaps sometimes 53 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:57,680 that freedom of like I can be myself. Finally, I'm not walking on 54 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:01,439 eggshells. There is a lot of freedom depending on the marriage that you were 55 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:08,879 in. But you know, yeah, I think there's judgment from outside, 56 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:13,080 but even more so internally. What's wrong with me? Why am I grieving? 57 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,279 Right? Let's talk about I think this is really interesting speaking about like 58 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:23,279 walking on eggshells? Right? Do you feel like I feel like a lot 59 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:29,920 of people convince themselves that this is just how relationships are because I notise, 60 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,839 right, And it must be hard to help people, like as a coach 61 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:41,600 see that, Like, oh, you know that some things are are compromises, 62 00:04:42,639 --> 00:04:45,920 but how do you know and how do you help people see that? 63 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,759 Like, No, there's a lot of stuff that like you could be so 64 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,519 much happier right now, Like you shouldn't have to put up with that. 65 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:59,000 That's not normal, right. I think part of it is if you're compromising 66 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:06,600 yourself health, that's a problem. You can compromise things, you can compromise, 67 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,800 you know who's gonna you? I think it's it's also a matter of 68 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,879 negotiation. And in a negotiation, both people come to the table, they're 69 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:19,920 both giving, they're both taking whatever is, whatever that is. But when 70 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:27,800 you're compromising yourself and you're compromising who you are, and you're compromising your values 71 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:35,439 and you're compromising your highest self, that's not okay because the relationship should be 72 00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:44,680 exalting those things that the relationship should be lifting those things up right right, 73 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:51,759 those the relationship should be feeding who you are, not taking away from it. 74 00:05:53,199 --> 00:06:00,959 Yeah, the compromising yourself sometimes I feel and this is just from friends, 75 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:05,199 and like a lot of people that I know seems like their partner might 76 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,720 have like a personality disorder. And you know, the personality disorders can be 77 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,759 so tricky. Yes, so you end up thinking like a lot of stuff 78 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,360 is your own fault and that you're just not being like loving enough, or 79 00:06:17,439 --> 00:06:21,759 you're not being accepting enough, or you're wanting crazy things or you know, 80 00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:28,120 and then the partner who has a personality disorder, it can turn things around 81 00:06:28,199 --> 00:06:30,279 on you and gaslight you and make you feel like, well, I guess 82 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:33,959 I'm just being crazier. I guess I'm being irrational, Like, how do 83 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,199 you help somebody see that, Like, no, you're not you know what 84 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,160 I mean? Yes, I do, Yeah, you just you just had 85 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:46,959 someone on your show that talked about narcissism and being a doctor Romney. I 86 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,199 had doctor Romney on talking. It was really interesting. She's she's like the 87 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,040 queen of narcissism and you know, so, narcissism itself is not a personality 88 00:06:56,079 --> 00:07:00,959 disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder is a personality disorder. Narcissism really exists on a 89 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,680 spectrum. But if we're talking about personality disorders, right, this is a 90 00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:12,399 fixed thing. This is not something that is treatable. It's not something that 91 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:18,199 you can change. There is some some theory and research that that borderline personality 92 00:07:18,199 --> 00:07:23,360 disorder can be can you can You can be helped if you have borderline, 93 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:26,600 but again, you have to want it, and most people are not diagnosed. 94 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:32,040 There's a the diagnosis rate for narcissistic personality disorder is really low, not 95 00:07:32,279 --> 00:07:38,800 because they don't exist, but because they're not seeking help. Nobody walking they're 96 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:43,279 fine. I think they're fine. Everybody else is the problem. Everyone else 97 00:07:43,399 --> 00:07:46,160 is the problem, and they might be diagnosed if they go in for something 98 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:51,000 else like a you know, addiction or something, and then the diagnosis is 99 00:07:51,319 --> 00:07:56,639 is co occurring, but they're really not seeking treatment because they really don't think 100 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:01,560 that there's anything wrong. But we as the victims, as the people in 101 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,519 relationship with these with these people, because the partner is always saying, there's 102 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,920 ei, there's something wrong with me. This sounds like a you problem. 103 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,439 You're the problem. If you would just then we would. And if you 104 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:16,839 could just shift your way of being or change your voice, or you know, 105 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,160 drop a few pounds or you know, get a boop job like, 106 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:22,720 then I would be attracted to you. Then I would want to spend time 107 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:26,079 with you. Then you would be good enough for me all of the things 108 00:08:26,199 --> 00:08:31,519 right, and it, you know, whittles away our sense of self and 109 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:39,799 who we are. But because we are coming to the relationship as normal people, 110 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:46,799 right as you know, with who are capable of empathy and and exchange, 111 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,440 right, we think that we are. We think that every they your 112 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,200 partner also has the same worldview. I love you, I want to be 113 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,720 in relationship with you, and so I think that that's what you want too. 114 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:07,200 But when your partner has a personality disorder, especially narcissistic personality, disorder. 115 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:11,759 They want power and control over you. That's all they want. And 116 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:18,360 so whatever they tell you needs to change about you in order for you to 117 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:24,159 be good enough or enough or get the love right. It's always changing because 118 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,000 you hit the target and like that wasn't quite right, right, because then 119 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:35,960 it's the game's done. So what you're you know, you're constantly but you're 120 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,879 you are trying to connect in the way that you did in the beginning, 121 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,679 which, by the way, was a game to them, right, it 122 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:50,960 wasn't real love and connection. But you we have a hard time understanding that 123 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,279 different worldview that someone is just out for power and control. We really think 124 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,200 that, like, well, I'm in this relationship for love and connection. 125 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:01,519 I think I thought you were in it for love and connection. So we're 126 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:07,159 just trying to get back to that, right. And what's very difficult to 127 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:11,559 recognize, and what I have to help women sort of wrap their brains around, 128 00:10:11,759 --> 00:10:20,519 is that the thing that you were sold never existed. The person you 129 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,679 fell in love with was a mask, and that was a game, and 130 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:28,399 that wasn't real, right, And that feels so real to them, that 131 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:35,759 to the idea that it wasn't real to the other person is devastating, devastating, 132 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,279 and so I guess you to your question Stuffanie, like how do I 133 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,320 help people? Right? How? And a lot of it is education, 134 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:48,720 right, I really have sort of a broad three three step process, right, 135 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,879 I don't I don't know into like processes necessarily. But the first the 136 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,720 first thing we have to do is the self work to really start to reconnect 137 00:10:58,799 --> 00:11:03,840 with that part of ourselves that we've lost, which is hard to do while 138 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,720 you're still in the relationship right right, But if you're already questioning and you're 139 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,159 starting to hear that voice and you're starting to go there's something not right here, 140 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:18,919 we can start to work with that self connection, reconnecting with who actually 141 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,759 am I? Who am I now right as an adult, as a mother, 142 00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:30,639 and what are my values? Right? And that could be very enlightening 143 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:31,799 for people. When they do the values work with me, they're like, 144 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,200 oh my god, this is just like we don't share values at all, 145 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,960 and that's like whoa. And then the next step is really the education piece, 146 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,080 like this is what abuse looks and feels like, this is what narcissism 147 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,320 looks and feels like, this is what like let's take this, like, 148 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,080 let's get educated on this stuff and see if it applies. And very often 149 00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:03,159 it's like when you put that overlay like onto the relationship, it's like, 150 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,720 oh that everything makes sense now, now it all makes sense. Yeah. 151 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,799 Sometimes sometimes it's weird because like I was in a relationship many many years ago, 152 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,919 and it was so hard because I'm like, it's resonating with me what 153 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,399 you're saying about the beginning, because the beginning was so different. The first 154 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,480 couple months was so different than the rest of the relationship, and I felt 155 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,480 so focused on and loved and like and I felt the excitement and I felt 156 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:39,519 like, oh, I just we really get along so well and have the 157 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,519 same sense of humor, and I had the most fun. And then it 158 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:48,720 changed where I was always kind of doing something wrong, or I was you 159 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:50,600 know, it wasn't enough, or I wasn't paying the right kind of attention 160 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,120 to him, or I was paying too much attention to him, and I 161 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,720 started to get and it really made it. It tapped into old real and 162 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,840 security, so I got really insecure and needy. And I always say, 163 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,360 even looking back, I never would have left that relationship like he left me 164 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:13,000 because I got so addicted to like the any validation. So then he got 165 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,320 real really inconsistent. Yeah, like sometimes he was nice to me, but 166 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:20,799 sometimes he was super distant, and then that would make me go, oh 167 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,840 my god, what am I doing wrong? How can I be better? 168 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,960 How can I please him? And it was it was such a negative. 169 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:31,799 The end was so negative, and he left me and then very rare, 170 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,960 right, which is very rare because what you're talking about, that cycle and 171 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:39,000 that addictive cycle is a trauma bond. So it's that you're addicted to the 172 00:13:41,159 --> 00:13:45,159 high, right You're And it's interesting, we're actually not even just addicted to 173 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,600 the dopamine hit that we get. We're actually addicted to the anticipation of it, 174 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:52,840 right, And so we're waiting for that to come. We know it's 175 00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:54,600 coming, we know it's coming, we know it's coming, and like there 176 00:13:54,639 --> 00:14:01,159 it is, right, and then and we're actually addicted to that mean hit, 177 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,159 right, and the anticipation of it. And then they take it away. 178 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,320 And so would they be addicted to that? What on their side would 179 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:15,120 it seem like they could be addicted to having somebody giving me, Oh, 180 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,320 they're addicted to the power and control, I see. But weirdly, this 181 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,559 guy, yeah, he left you that's very right. He loved me, 182 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,440 and also he's then he ended up married to his next relationship and they're still 183 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,039 married, they have kids. Like I don't know anything about his relationship, 184 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,080 but like that then makes you feel insecure about yourself even more because you're like, 185 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:41,919 well, maybe it was me. Maybe I was causing this behavior because 186 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,240 he's certainly able to have a great relationship with somebody else. Well, and 187 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:46,960 I think, you know, I don't know enough about this relationship or whatever. 188 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,240 But it also sounds like he had some avoidant tendencies, right, and 189 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:56,039 it's triggered your anxious attachment, And so maybe he married someone who was more 190 00:14:56,039 --> 00:15:01,240 avoidant than him or was more secure, and so it works differently, right, 191 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,799 So it might not have been the same intentional sort of personality disorder driven 192 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:09,039 thing or narcissistic driven thing that we're talking about. I mean, it could 193 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,960 have just been that he's avoidant or disorganized, which is even more like chaotic. 194 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,759 What's that disorganized attachment? Is? Like there, it's all they're all 195 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:22,200 over the place, so right, they're all in and then you start to 196 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,279 come in, and then they go all out and then the look but they 197 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,639 want it, but they don't want it right, so you feel like he 198 00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:33,399 was that's how he went. You start to feel crazy because he would cry 199 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:35,600 and say how much he loved me, but he's just not sure, like 200 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,440 he's just not one hundred percent sure the one yes right. But then he'd 201 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,559 be like, but but but you're everything. I love you so much, 202 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,360 and then then he'd be like, you're too much. I need space. 203 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:50,679 Yeah that sounds pretty disorganized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's a 204 00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:54,799 little different from like narcissism or I don't think he was a narcissist. Yeah, 205 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:58,360 yeah, but I still really played into a lot of blaming myself and 206 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:03,399 like how can I be better? And I felt addicted to the relationship. 207 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:07,080 So what it was that called disorganized disorganized attachment? Attachment? Yeah, it's 208 00:16:07,159 --> 00:16:11,919 one of the attachments. You know. There's a great, amazing woman on 209 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:18,600 Instagram called the attachment nerd Eli Hartwood, and she's amazing and she she's so 210 00:16:18,759 --> 00:16:22,519 good on the attachment stuff. And we just talked about this on my podcast. 211 00:16:22,679 --> 00:16:26,080 I think it's coming out this week. Maybe I don't remember, but 212 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,639 it's it's really interesting how that there are different names, different depending on whose 213 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,000 study your you know, whose research you're following, but uh, yeah, 214 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:44,120 it's a deep, rich body of yeah science, let's should we take a 215 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,320 quick break, Yeah, let's take a break. So I have a question 216 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:55,039 I think a lot of women struggle with, like how do I know when 217 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,799 this relationship is more bad than good? Do you have any like signs? 218 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:03,240 Or I know you did say the thing about if you're if you're giving up 219 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:07,440 like yourself, But that's that's vague, right, Like, yes, are 220 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,400 there any concrete things that like how much fighting or how much or like you 221 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:18,839 know to help women decide? So I think what I in my in my 222 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,680 book, Yeah, yes, of course have a right do you have a 223 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:30,599 healthy relationship checklist? Okay? Which I think is important because what it asks 224 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:37,000 you to do instead of looking at the relationship and what it has, and 225 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,599 like, you know, what does a healthy relationship look like? I don't 226 00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:41,400 know. My relationship looks different from that. Right, how do you feel 227 00:17:42,559 --> 00:17:48,160 in this relationship? This is really should be about how you feel? And 228 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:52,799 in the checklist, I have things like I feel emotionally safe in my relationship? 229 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,960 Right, and if you're in a healthy happy relation First of all, 230 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:02,000 people who are in healthy happy relationships, not asking should I stay or should 231 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,519 I go? They're not waking up at three o'clock in the morning going, 232 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,839 I don't know is this relationship working for me? Like like you're happy, 233 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,319 You're fine, right, but that's really true. I sometimes do take those 234 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,680 quizzes on like huff po or like if your husband is doing these one of 235 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:21,160 these eight things, you're not in a good relationship. And I know I 236 00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:22,720 am in a good relationship, but I will take that. I will look 237 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:26,319 at look at it and way and right yeah, and get confirmed that you're 238 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:32,799 actually fine. Right right? And so people who I like taking random quiz 239 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,799 right, that has to do with the quiz, not John right right, 240 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,599 right, right right? So right? Do you feel emotionally safe? Are 241 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:48,519 you able to freely express yourself and your opinions are heard and honored? Right? 242 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,440 You know? Do you feel physically safe in your relationship? Right? 243 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:59,119 You know it's a big one. I feel completely free to be myself around 244 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,079 my partner. Let me tell you I sure did not. This is the 245 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,920 walking on eggshells thing, right, Like, do you ever feel like you're 246 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,640 walking on eggshells in your marriage? Like? Never? Right now? Right, 247 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,599 you can be, but I did in previous relationships very exactly. You 248 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,640 know, you should feel safe to haven't express your feelings. Yeah right, 249 00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:26,119 if you say I feel I feel sad today or I feel kind of bummed 250 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:32,160 about the way that you talked to me earlier, you know, instead of 251 00:19:32,279 --> 00:19:34,039 it being turned around on you, it's like, oh my god, I 252 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:37,960 can't believe you'd say that to me. Now I feel you know, and 253 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:41,119 now suddenly we're talking about your feelings and my feelings are gone. What right? 254 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:45,039 You know, in a healthy relationship, when you say I feel bummed 255 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,079 about the way you talked to me earlier, their response should be oh my 256 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,160 god, honey, I'm so sorry I was such a dick, right, 257 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,599 or like I did not mean that at all. That wasn't like I was 258 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,640 just my head was you know, up my ass or whatever? Or I'll 259 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,680 give you a third option for that, because I have had this situation with 260 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:07,240 John where I'm like, I will say that John can sometimes get upset with 261 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,480 me for being upset, okay, but I also have to work on my 262 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:17,960 own like listening, Like it's sort of like the thing that's healthy is that 263 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:21,480 we both come to it. I feel free to say, listen, I 264 00:20:21,559 --> 00:20:22,680 don't like the way you talk to me or I don't like the way that 265 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:26,279 happened in that fight, and then John will say he will say, okay, 266 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,960 well I'm sorry, I'm sorry. You know, I also felt not 267 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,000 heard or whatever. And then I feel like I have to be willing to 268 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,680 also look at myself and go like, sure, yeah, how am I 269 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,200 coming at this? But in the end, we both always he really does 270 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:44,759 try to. He's like, I want to hear that, right, I 271 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,400 want to hear why you're upset. I want to hear your point of view. 272 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,880 I also want you to reciprocity, right, also with these guys, 273 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:53,400 because I you know, I've got a lot of friends too, and in 274 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,720 their marriage it's like, you know, I get mad at something that he 275 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,119 said or whatever, and then now he's mad because I'm mad. Right, 276 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,759 there's well, it's like that's like a common thread and it's a lot of 277 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:08,000 people. I think it's an ego wounding thing. It's I can't be wrong. 278 00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:11,440 And it's also you know, I think one of the bigger issues, 279 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:17,359 like it's of a more systemic issue, right, which is we traditionally, 280 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:22,799 historically do not hold space for men to have feelings other than rage, right, 281 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:30,400 And so the I think guilt is a softer feeling or you know, 282 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:37,240 feeling remorse. It's I think it's a harder space for men to lean into. 283 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:40,599 We're so used to feeling that right, we're guilty all the time right 284 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,240 now, and I think that's a harder space for men to lean into, 285 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,079 and so their first response is going to be defense, defense, or or 286 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,799 anger. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, it's not it's not 287 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,759 good, it's not healthy, and it's doing damage to millions of relationships for 288 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,799 sure. But I do think that that's you know, an answer to the 289 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,759 question why do they do that? Right? Pretty much, we don't give 290 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:10,559 them space to be much of anything else right, because if they are right, 291 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,039 God forbid, then they're labeled one of the two worst things a man 292 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,119 can possibly be, right a girl or gay. So right, right and 293 00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:26,720 right, and that's how we tend to socialize boys. You know, man 294 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:33,759 up, don't be a pussy. Right. So, when people are going 295 00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:40,079 through okay, they decided to go okay, let's is it usually the it's 296 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:47,079 usually the person that's feeling taken advantage of by the other person or or like 297 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,119 ause you just said to Stephanie, that rarely happens with he broke up with 298 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:53,480 with he broke up with her. Oh yeah, right, Yes, with 299 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:57,200 a narcissist, they usually oh yeah, I mean listen, as soon as 300 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,119 you try to break up with a narcissist, they are they're going to do 301 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,920 usually pull out all the stops. There, the love bombing is going to 302 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,079 start again. The promises. The person who was never going to go to 303 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,880 therapy is now one hundred percent willing to go to therapy. They'll do anything, 304 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,519 they'll right now, they see the light. Now they understand they're reading 305 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,119 the books. Right. This person has never picked up a book. They've 306 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,400 never right, because it's the ultimate They're losing, right, their supply, 307 00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:32,680 right, so the narcissistic supply. You are the supply. And if you're 308 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,160 finally like I cut it off, they're going to scramble, right. They 309 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:45,519 only they tend to abuse only to the level at which they need to need 310 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,160 to in order to maintain maintain power and control. And so as soon as 311 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,920 they feel like they've absolutely lost it, they're going to pull out all the 312 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,519 stops. None of that is real, None of that is real. They 313 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:02,359 will be on the best behavior, they'll fix everything in the house. They'll 314 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,359 come home with flowers. They'll do all of the things. They won't actually 315 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:12,319 call the therapist. They won't actually like because what I tell my clients to 316 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,039 do is like, Okay, just sit back and wait, sit back and 317 00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:18,359 wait and see what he does. Don't listen to the words, see what 318 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,680 he does. And if you have an ounce of a fuck left to give, 319 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,440 okay, like maybe maybe you go to that therapy appointment, but don't 320 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,759 make it. And it usually lasts about two or three weeks and then it 321 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:33,960 goes back to normal of course. Interesting, yeah, Yeah. The thing 322 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:41,160 about narcissist and this is this is very hard for us to wrap our brains 323 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,240 around narcissists, true narcissists, Right, someone who's been diagnosed as a narcissist. 324 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:48,240 It's a very you know, we can look at a lot of set 325 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:52,240 of behaviors and be like, uh, yeah, right, it's pretty clear 326 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:59,880 they can't change, right, right, And it's that is the hardest thing 327 00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:03,880 for us to wrap our brains around when you're in relationship with them, because 328 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,920 first of all, they promise that they can. It seems like they can, 329 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,640 they do for a little bit, and there's nothing and there's there's nothing 330 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:17,359 that we can't change because we've spent our whole time in the relationship changing all 331 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:23,359 sorts of things about us. But they actually cannot change. And they can 332 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,319 learn new behaviors, they can learn what empathy looks like, but they can't 333 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:34,799 feel it. They cannot be in the relationship the way that you and I 334 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:42,480 are. And that's a really hard thing for us to and like begin to 335 00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:48,400 understand. And what about people that have children in the middle of all this 336 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,720 and you know, uh, they grow up, you know, like, 337 00:25:56,039 --> 00:26:02,279 how is it how is it navigating a divorce with children with and then what 338 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,279 if you see like the same behaviors. Yeah, I'm not saying it's like, 339 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,079 I'm not I'm just saying in general, sure, what if you're seeing 340 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,559 like the same behaviors that the way they treated you in a relationship that they're 341 00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:18,160 now doing like, you know, a little manipulation the children. Yeah. 342 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,079 Sure. So there's two things that I would say about that. First of 343 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,319 all, all children are narcissistic by nature. Their prefrontal cortex has not developed 344 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,680 yet. They are not capable of the full breadth of empathy and any all 345 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:34,759 of that stuff that we are as grown ups, right, I mean, 346 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:41,880 my kids are No, No, I mean totally so. But that's I 347 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:45,799 understand why you would say that my kids are pretty perfect. Yeah, just 348 00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:49,960 kidding, go ahead, I mean same, but you know for everybody else, 349 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:55,599 Yeah, for other people. Yeah. So I hear this all the 350 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,480 time with women in my group. They're so scared, they're so scared that 351 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:03,680 their kids are going to be just like their ex Right, and you're talking 352 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,720 about or are you saying what if you see the partner ex part I'm talking 353 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,160 about I'm talking about all of it. And yeah, there's the component of 354 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,359 are they going to grow up to be like that and have those traits? 355 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:22,400 But I'm also talking about the way the way the person treated you in the 356 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:26,039 marriage. You can start to see him treating treating the children. Yeah, 357 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,359 with a little bit of they're going to be the supply now yea. So 358 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,759 it's two things, right, and I think so the so the first one, 359 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,920 let me just finish addressing the children, like the children behaving and mimicking 360 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,920 the behaviors and all of those things. So actually, and I think this 361 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:44,839 is true of both things. The very best thing that you can do for 362 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,720 your children when you are married to a narcissist or an abuser, which are 363 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:55,359 not always the same. All narcissists are abusive, not all abusers are narcissists. 364 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,559 And so when you're when you're married to someone like this, the very 365 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,519 best thing you can do is to get out. And the mistake that a 366 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:08,480 lot of women make is that they stay in because they feel like they're trying 367 00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:14,160 to protect the children, and they feel like they're trying to create a container 368 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:19,599 where they can come in and run interference or smooth things over or protect right 369 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,279 and actually what they're doing is keeping their children in it twenty four to seven. 370 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:30,079 And so they're creating a blueprint for a relationship for their children that is 371 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:38,000 really toxic. If you get out and you have two separate homes, even 372 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:41,680 if one of them is toxic, and even if one of them is full 373 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,519 of narcissism and abuse and all of the things, if you have one home 374 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:52,680 that you create that is full of love and empathy and kindness and safety, 375 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:59,039 you're giving your children the gift of perspective. You give them a place for 376 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:06,440 their central nervousness to settle, You give them a model for what love actually 377 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:11,400 looks and feels like, and they start to notice the difference in how they 378 00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:17,400 feel, and they're able to choose interesting, right, they're able to choose 379 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,759 down the line. I feel safe at mom's house, I feel heard, 380 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:25,319 right, I feel seen. I feel controlled and manipulated and yelled at and 381 00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:29,880 scared at dads, you know, and I love my dad, right and 382 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:37,240 right like of course it's very complicated and so so that's you know, in 383 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:44,799 both cases, right if the if the abuser is abusing the child emotionally, 384 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:52,279 unfortunately the legal system does not care about that. But you have a place, 385 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,039 they have a place that they can go for safety. Right. So 386 00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:59,440 the very often you remove yourself as the supply. Yeah, they're going to 387 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,319 turn to the kid and they're going to try and get the kid to be 388 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,839 the supply. And so having a kid in therapy is very important. Teaching 389 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,640 a kid about boundaries is very important. They will come to you and say, 390 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,200 I'm scared Dad said this, or don't tell Dad this, and you 391 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:21,119 know, you can say, you know when I have learned that when talking 392 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,200 with Dad, these are really important boundaries. And here's the way I set 393 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:30,480 those boundaries with Dad to protect myself, right, And so you work with 394 00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:34,079 it that way. When they start mimicking those behaviors because they want to align. 395 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:40,039 You have to remember that you are the safe parent. They you love 396 00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:42,319 them unconditionally, so they can behave however the hell they need or want to 397 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,319 at your house, and very often when they come back from the other house, 398 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,359 they're going to let it all out on you because you're the safe parent, 399 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,720 and very often they're aligning with the unsafe parent because that love is conditional 400 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,599 and they know that what the conditions are. And that can be really, 401 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,359 really hard for the safe parent otherwise also known as the protective parent to deal 402 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,519 with because suddenly they might feel like it might seem like they're abusing you in 403 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,960 much the same way. And so your job. There's an amazing woman named 404 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,079 doctor Christine Cocciola, and she works with protective parents and she does all this 405 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,200 work and she's a good friend of mine. She's amazing. She's been on 406 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:27,400 my podcast a few times, and she deals with this about how to be 407 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,880 a protective parent and how to hold that space for your children without you know, 408 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,119 calling them abusers, right, because that's the last thing and the most 409 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,480 terrifying thing, and it's really hard, but you have to kind of become 410 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:47,079 their therapist in many ways and just have this sort of unconditional empathy for what 411 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,920 they're going through, even when it feels like you're being like shit on. 412 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:56,279 It's hard, right, very hard. When I was a kid and my 413 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,000 parents got divorced, and I a couple of years into it, remember that, 414 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,839 and I only I only heard about what this is when I got older. 415 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:13,039 But my father was a narcissist and my mother was probably the supplier, 416 00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:20,279 although and I don't but he was like very grandiose and narcissistic. But when 417 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,400 they divorced, he I felt sorry for him because you know, and he 418 00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:30,799 it was emotional like I felt like he would say, like, you're all 419 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,680 I have. You're you're you're my best friend. You're the only person who 420 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,160 I can talk to. And it was so suffocating, of course, and 421 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:43,599 I wish that I didn't have to like spend time, and I felt responsible 422 00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:45,640 right exactly, well, and it came his parented me up. Yeah, 423 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,799 I had the same thing. Yeah, when you were talking about with the 424 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,759 kids and the safe and I had the same day. I was thinking my 425 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,319 dad was the safe place. My mother was the narcissist. Because it's not 426 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,880 like I mean, it's not necessarily the guy all the time, and see 427 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,720 it could be other way wound because my mom was a true narcissist in a 428 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:10,640 crazy way too, by the way, but but my dad was the safe 429 00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:15,279 space for me when they got divorced, and then I started to resent my 430 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,519 mother because I had to take care of her. I had to look after 431 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,319 her. She had me like wrapped around, you know. And then what 432 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:29,599 happens do you I don't know, do people usually go and find their love 433 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:36,079 of their life and look for that person, you know? Or I don't 434 00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:38,640 know, do they go and repeat it like because they had a narcissistic parent, 435 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:45,119 as do they find a narcissistic partner? Right? I mean usually right? 436 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,319 Yeah, yeah, And that's also there's there is also this gray area, 437 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,799 like not everybody is a diagnosable like a trust that's abusive. Like there's 438 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,119 so much. There's such a spectrum, right, and you can have you 439 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,680 can be with somebody who you're like, this doesn't feel good, but they're 440 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,119 not doing something. They're not physically hurting me. I feel I feel safe 441 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,360 in my home. They're not gonna but they're not giving me like but they're 442 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,480 always right. They don't really listen to me. They don't support the things 443 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,119 that I want to do. They make me feel like I'm never enough, 444 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,719 Like there's all these things that it's but there's but they're still like, right, 445 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:27,159 it doesn't look from the outside like, oh, this guy is a 446 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,719 terrible guy, and not everybody would agree that they're a narcissist. Right, 447 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,400 but like what you and I feel like that's a much trickier place to be 448 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,840 when you're like it seems like my friend's marriages are better than mine, but 449 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:44,000 I don't know that my husband is doing enough shit to like leave him and 450 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,440 like disrupt my whole life. Right, how bad does it have to be? 451 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,639 Right? And so what I always say to women is that you deserve 452 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:58,679 to be happy. You deserve to be happy, Like there's no why do 453 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,400 we feel like we all well, you know it's not that bad. I 454 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,039 guess I'll just stuff. Oh my god, this is your life. This 455 00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:07,400 is it. This is your life, period, end of story, this 456 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:12,199 one right here? Right? Is that really what you want? And is 457 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,159 this is what you want for your kids? Because they will repeat it? 458 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:22,800 Right, Yeah, let's take another quick break. We're back. I got 459 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,639 so when you get at let's say, okay, you get out of a 460 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:32,119 relationship. I was listening to your show and your guest was talking about uh 461 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:39,360 detox at one year detox, and can you explain what she was talking about? 462 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:43,679 Well, she was saying that when you get out of a relationship, 463 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,360 like I think any relationship really like a long term intense relationship, but in 464 00:35:47,639 --> 00:35:53,360 particular a relationship with a narcissist, you need a year before you get back 465 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,599 into, before you even start dating. You have to find out who you 466 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,840 are when you've been in a relationationship with someone and the whole time it has 467 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:12,239 been like a systematic deconstructing of yourself and an abandonment of self. You know, 468 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,199 so you've got it from from outside and from within, right, Like, 469 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,519 but that's necessary, right, there's no there's no wrong, right, 470 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:28,400 it's not wrong. It's it's self preservation. This, you know, consistent 471 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:37,760 slow abandoning of self and denying of who you are. You need time to 472 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:43,199 rebuild it. You need at least a year of coming home after work and 473 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,119 just like being with yourself and your cats and your journal and like your kids 474 00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:51,679 half the time. If that's where what it is, right, like to 475 00:36:51,920 --> 00:37:00,760 fill that time with self generation as opposed to you know I did, right. 476 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,199 I was drinking a lot, I was shopping a lot, keeping busy. 477 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,760 I was having parties, I was going out, I was dating, 478 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,280 I was having a lot of sex, you know. And it took a 479 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,920 toll. It took a huge toll. And then, you know, ten 480 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:22,039 years later when I quit drinking and by it was all still there, all 481 00:37:22,159 --> 00:37:29,480 the trauma just waiting, right, And so this the intentionality of taking a 482 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:36,559 year to reconnect with self and who you are now in this new realm and 483 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:44,320 to reparent yourself because yeah, probably you got to this relationship because of where 484 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,360 you came from. And so now we're rewriting the script. And by the 485 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:57,840 way, you're stopping the generational trauma, you're stopping the pattern. You're breaking 486 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:04,039 the cycle. You are breaking the cycle here and now, and that takes 487 00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:09,440 something for yourself, right, right, So you and uh you also, 488 00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:15,039 I you you have a website where people can do the survey, which I 489 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:19,519 did. Oh you did? Yeah, it's tell tell us. The website 490 00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:25,480 is Kaitanthony dot com slash which so which slash survey or slash where you get 491 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,159 a curated thing, a curated podcast playlist. Yes, that's oh, I 492 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,920 slash playlist. That slash playlist, Kia dot com slash playlist. Yeah, 493 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,719 it's a cure. I have a curated podcast. Playlists have two hundred and 494 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,599 fifty some odd episodes, right and so and and there. Some of them 495 00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:45,559 are for people who are, you know, happ getting a amicable divorce. 496 00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:47,559 Some of them people who are trying to decide whether to stay or go, 497 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:51,840 and they're being abused in there, right, And so if you sign up 498 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,039 for that, take a little quiz, then I'll give you a list of 499 00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:57,800 like twelve episodes that are for you, right. Cool? Yeah, I 500 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,079 love that. I love that. Yeah, just sign I know. If 501 00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:07,639 we did at mess I Hate my Kids, Okay, well that would be 502 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:17,800 episodes, yeah, exactly all the way through. Yeah, it's really cool. 503 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,400 And so you're a divorce coach, and so what are some of the 504 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:27,719 like what does that mean? Like, okay, like a therapist and maybe 505 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,480 I need to like, so I do a bunch of things. Are you 506 00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:37,559 a post divorce yea post divorce I do? I do? And so I'm 507 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:40,559 a co parenting specialist. I'm certified code parenting specialist. I'm a domestic violence 508 00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:45,280 victims advocate. I get I just keep getting certified in various things because I'm 509 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,280 a high conflict divorce coach, so I work with people going through and helping 510 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,679 them create effective strategies for going through this, especially if it's going to be 511 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,719 high conflict, to try to like minimize as much conflict as possible. I 512 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,239 do work with recovery divorce recovery, because there's so much on that other side 513 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,159 to deal with. I help women decide whether to stay or go. That's 514 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:15,960 a huge you know. That's my book really is about making the decision and 515 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:22,280 learning what what's healthy, what's not healthy? What you know, what's okay 516 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,960 with you? It's not okay with you. You're going to get a lot 517 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:32,159 of new clients from this. Well what are you doing today? About an 518 00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:38,119 hour? How and so? How? So you got divorced? I just 519 00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:42,039 want to know how this came about for you too, like a little bit 520 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:44,639 about you. So you got divorced, you had it, it was a 521 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,880 ship show for a while. Well no, it was a ship show in 522 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,599 the marriage. So I basically spent and this is very common. I spent 523 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:59,519 a good like two to four years going I don't something's wrong, you know, 524 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,559 I mean, if I'm honest, it was the whole ten years. 525 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,159 But you know, I just kept thinking that I could fix it, right. 526 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,159 And when I was trying to decide, I was really looking for a 527 00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:13,480 burning bush. I really was. I was like, come on, somebody, 528 00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:15,639 like, you know, I don't know, Morgan Freeman, somebody come 529 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,679 into my come and tell me what to do. And I asked a really 530 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,559 close friend of mine, and we were in group couples therapy together, and 531 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:29,440 because that's the thing, group couples therapy. And I was like, and 532 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:31,119 he had been divorced before, and so I said, like, tell me, 533 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,320 how do you know when you know? And his response is, when 534 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,639 you know, you'll know. And I was like, but I don't know, 535 00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:46,239 and I did when when I did know, I finally I finally knew, 536 00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:51,440 right. But the problem I was having at that time was I was 537 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,480 I was successful. I was an actor, I was on a hit TV 538 00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:58,400 show, I was doing all the stuff. Like on the outside, right, 539 00:41:58,599 --> 00:42:02,960 everything looked real good, but on the inside, I was like vacant. 540 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,880 I was kind of step thirty, right. I describe myself as a 541 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:16,880 head on legs. I just had no access to myself because of that systematic 542 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,920 denying that I had to do in order to be in this marriage, and 543 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:25,559 it was very abusive. It was a very emotionally abusive marriage. And then 544 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:30,400 when I knew, I knew right, and then it was this process of 545 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:36,480 getting out and then the divorce was actually great. But honestly, it's I 546 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,360 think it's a crapshoot. I think it was just a stroke of luck that 547 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:45,199 I was divorcing someone who it was more important to him to look like the 548 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:53,840 greatest divorced dad ever than it was to continue to try to control me and 549 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,559 ruin my life. But that's really like, I don't know. I don't 550 00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:00,719 know that you can and I've been this a long time. I don't know 551 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,559 that you can determine that. I mean, there are certain things that you 552 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:07,440 can determine that this person is going to make your life a living hell, 553 00:43:07,599 --> 00:43:10,119 absolutely, but sometimes you really don't know which way they're going to go. 554 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,639 Right. But then you said that you were kind of a mess post divorce. 555 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,239 Yes, I didn't know. I was, yeah, because everything seemed 556 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,039 fine. So it was like, okay, great, now we're going to 557 00:43:21,079 --> 00:43:23,079 be best friends, right, And so it was a more denial, more 558 00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:28,800 suppression, and while the abuse was spiking, like every single day, multiple 559 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,440 times a day. In the marriage, it would only it would only spike 560 00:43:31,599 --> 00:43:36,280 maybe like every month or so in divorce, and I thought I could handle 561 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:42,960 that right. And eventually, you know, part of my process was going 562 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,199 back to school to become a coach. I was done with being an actor. 563 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,039 I'd been an actor for thirty years. I was done. I didn't 564 00:43:47,039 --> 00:43:49,800 want to do it anymore. I'd three and a half year old. I'm 565 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,159 not gonna be driving in LA traffic to auditions and all over town, like, 566 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:57,079 forget it. And so I needed to figure out what the hell I 567 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:00,159 was going to do next. And everyone was like, you should be a 568 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,519 therapist, and I was like, I would rather put glass in my head. 569 00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:07,199 And someone said, what about coaching? And I thought, oh, 570 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,920 that's interesting. And so I went to school and I went back to school 571 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,360 to become a coach. And I really enjoyed it and I was really good 572 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,039 at it. And so I started that process. And as I was learning 573 00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:21,719 and doing that, I was regaining my sense of self. I was learning 574 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,599 who I was again and that what I was good at, and also learning 575 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:30,840 that there had to have been a better process. It was really feeling like 576 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,360 there had to have been a better process, then you'll know when you know, 577 00:44:36,639 --> 00:44:39,119 and that if I could, I'd started learning more about domestic violence, 578 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,760 and I started learning more about the complexities of emotional abuse and course of control, 579 00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:50,559 and that I really just wanted to help women get out of these toxic 580 00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:54,239 and abusive relationships in a way that was better than, oh, you know, 581 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,599 hang out and maybe some day, some day you'll you'll know, right, 582 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,880 like there had to have been and that was sort of what's what became 583 00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:08,199 what I do is just finding a better way, the antidote to when you 584 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,760 know, you'll know right. I also think, especially for women, some 585 00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:19,800 women are not like sometimes this spouse is not that bad, right, but 586 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,960 and you can stay because you feel guilty because you're like, well, the 587 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,679 beginning of the relationship was great, but now I'm dealing with a guy that, 588 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,119 like, I mean, let's say it has an alcohol problem. But 589 00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:35,480 it's not like they're not like a raging alcoholics. It's like but or things 590 00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:38,840 that make them not the best partner. And then you do that for a 591 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,039 really long time, and then there's a I mean, I just I have 592 00:45:43,199 --> 00:45:46,440 some friends that have gone through this where they're like, it's not that bad, 593 00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,760 but it's not that good, right exactly, Like right, it's fine, 594 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:53,960 it's okay, And I kind of feel bad because I don't want to 595 00:45:54,039 --> 00:46:00,199 leave him because for whatever reason, he has depression or he is dealing with 596 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,440 mental illness, or he's dealing with all these things. And like writers in 597 00:46:04,559 --> 00:46:07,199 my book, O, n what if he's an addict or mentally ill? 598 00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:12,400 My god, he's fine. Why can't I just be happy? Yeah? 599 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,599 Right? Yeah, I think that's so that's important the work you do for 600 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,559 that as well, exactly. And that's what I was saying before, like 601 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,360 like what do we realize that we deserve exactly right right exactly, and we're 602 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,159 so trained to believe that we you know, have to sacrifice everything, including 603 00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:32,960 our happiness, our bodies, ourselves, like everything for the service of everybody 604 00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:38,440 else. And you know, I call bullshit no more. Wow, this 605 00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:45,360 has been like such a great uh and learning a lot. It's excellent. 606 00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:47,920 Yeah, And so people can get the name of the book is the D 607 00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:53,000 word, the D word making the ultimate decision about your marriage. It's everywhere. 608 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,400 I do have a page on my website Kateanthony dot com slash D word 609 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,000 that also gives you so ideas about how to get it in ways that might 610 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:08,719 be a little bit more subtle or secretive, because you know, so audible 611 00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:15,760 Kindle Amazon, if you share an Amazon account with your spouse, buying this 612 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,960 book might not be safe, right, And so you're gonna so there's some 613 00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:22,199 there are some ways that you can buy it, that you can find it 614 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,840 that might be a little bit more you know, safer at right, because 615 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,360 this is not the thing that you want showing up at your house suddenly and 616 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,559 then having conversations that you're not ready to have, right, or your spouse 617 00:47:34,639 --> 00:47:42,280 looking at Amazon and going, oh, recently bought right exactly. And the 618 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,920 book does walk you through how to have the conversation, which is I have 619 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:51,079 a very specific formula for how to have the conversation because so many women are 620 00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:54,840 like, I've tried to tell him like five times, I have this conversation 621 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,079 so many times, and he just like he won't agree. And you know, 622 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,679 my point is, this is not a conversation, right, right, 623 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,880 right, This is a declaration. You are stating a fact. You are 624 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,360 done with your marriage, you know, so do and you have the podcast. 625 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,679 I have a podcast, the Divorce Survival Guide podcast. Everything is on 626 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,000 my website Kateanthony dot com. You can also find me on Instagram at the 627 00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:23,559 Divorce Survival Guide. Wow o kay Jazing, You're so great. I can't 628 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:30,800 wait to talk to you. I am. I will. Thank you Stephanie 629 00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,920 for bringing her in. Yeah, okay, thank you everybody. Thanks Caylin, 630 00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:40,199 thanks everybody. You're a parent, now, don't f it up. It's