WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.240 Welcome back, fellow thinkers and curious minds to another captivating episode of Desanthra Life. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.280 I'm your host, Adam Gamwell, and we're here to explore the fascinating 3 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:11.599 intersection of anthropology, culture, and the human experience. So race yourself for 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:15.119 a thought brooking discussion that's going to challenge your perspectives and leave you at the 5 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.519 deeper understanding of the world around us. Now we're diving in the topic of 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:23.000 teaching towards a post racist imagination with the brilliant Janine Dan the Age and in 7 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:27.039 a world that constantly grapples with issues of race, especially the United States, 8 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.760 imagining a future where racism no longer holds us back is not just a dream, 9 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:34.159 but it's a vital necessity. Jeanine is an expert in the field, 10 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.039 and she'll guide us through the process of dismantling racist attitudes and creating a more 11 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:42.119 inclusive society. So here's the question to ponder, what does it mean to 12 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:47.280 teach towards a post racist imagination? How can we foster conversations that challenge our 13 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:52.119 perspectives about race while creating a safe space for learning and growths. It's a 14 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:56.119 question that every person regardless of their background, should be asking themselves. And 15 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.039 the great thing is we're about to get some of those answers. So joining 16 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:03.960 us today is the incredible Jeanine Danovitch, whose expertise in teaching complex subjects with 17 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:07.719 both empathy and bravery has garnered widespread acclaim. Jeanine will share her insights, 18 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:14.560 experiences, and practical strategies for engaging in productive conversations about race in both professional 19 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.959 and personal settings. We'll explore how Janine sets the stage for meaningful discussions and 20 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.760 when and how race matters in those conversations. We're going to dig into her 21 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.959 concept of brave community and how to create a safe and empathetic space for discussing 22 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.519 challenging topics. Jeanine will also share her method of grounding for learning and how 23 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.840 it can empower individuals to be intellectually brave and open to change. But that's 24 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.840 not all. We're also going to look into the power of empathy, the 25 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.680 importance of respectful conversations across different raceful perspectives, and how to navigate the complexities 26 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:48.120 of discussing race in today's world. Jane's insights and practical strategies will leave you 27 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.840 feeling inspired and equipped to have more meaningful conversations about race and racism. So 28 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.280 grab a pen and paper, or prepare to highlight with your headphones or however 29 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.799 you take those, because Janie's wisdom is about to ignite your imagination and chal 30 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.439 the status quote. So, whether you're a seasoned advocate for social justice, 31 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:07.239 we're simply curious about fostering a more inclusive for us. This episode is a 32 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:09.479 few now right before we jump in, make sure to hit that subscribe button 33 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:13.159 so they never missed an episode of This Anther Life. And if you enjoy 34 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.039 what we do, be forever grateful if you could give us a review, 35 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:19.840 share the podcast with friends and family or other folks that you believe would get 36 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.120 something out of this as well. Together, let's spread knowledge, insight, 37 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.400 inspiration that This Anther Life has to offer. So let's dive onto this journey. 38 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.240 Right after the break, Jean, so excited to have you back on 39 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:31.439 the program. It's been a little while since we've talked on the podcast. 40 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.759 We've obviously talked numerous times in the intervening years and months since then, but 41 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.080 you know, so excited to have you back here on the pod for the 42 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:44.039 community. Thank you I'm excited to be here. It's been i don't know, 43 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.919 seven years something like that. It's been it's been a while, yeah, 44 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.800 which is also just kind of crazy to think about too. Yeah, 45 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.879 we last met at in person at Harvard University, which has a different ring 46 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:55.199 to it now that I mean, we're in post twenty twenty at this point, 47 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.680 so we were like, we went through pandemic and so we meeting in 48 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:00.680 persons sounds different even we can say it. You know, was way way 49 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:07.120 before in those days we really we met regularly in person. It wasn't go 50 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:12.120 figure writing crazy world, you know. So we're trying to try to bring 51 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.800 that back. But as you if you're listening, we're talking remotely. So 52 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.039 this is the fun irony of this. But you know, so one thing 53 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:23.560 I'm excited to kind of bring into conversation and something that I always appreciate about 54 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.960 our conversations. This is something that like when I was a graduate student and 55 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:30.680 you were finishing your doctoral work too, that that really helped me get real 56 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.680 about. Was this idea that we can actually bring pedagogy. You know, 57 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:37.520 it's just a fancy way of saying teaching and teaching methodologies into quote unquote real 58 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.960 life outside of the classroom. And this is this is a piece of conversation 59 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.960 we discussed originally just in terms of what does it mean to have certain kinds 60 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:46.759 of conversations in and outside of the classroom. I think what's really really cool 61 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.400 and exciting about your your work and your new publication on Brave Community is helping 62 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.800 us actually see that what it means to bring these kinds of you know, 63 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:59.439 ways of methodologies into into the classroom, but then also kind of beyond it 64 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.080 also. So I'm curious to kind of open our conversation in this arena, 65 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:08.560 right, I want to get into the content of Brave Community itself and teaching 66 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:12.000 for a post racist imagination in the idea of imagination there too. But I 67 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.960 think that like the idea of teaching in pedagogy as both a method and something 68 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.160 that informs your work, I want to kind of open us up here and 69 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:23.800 think about this idea of how does pedagogy play into the kind of work that 70 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:27.079 you're doing, you know, as an educator of students and classrooms. But 71 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.439 that obviously beyond that as well. Yeah, thank you. That's a great 72 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.519 starting point because I think the fact that Brave Community as a method is a 73 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:40.040 teaching method, it's a teaching and learning method is crucial to its value. 74 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:43.399 And what I mean by that is that it's two things. It has to 75 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.519 do with it. How it came to me, right, and also what 76 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.959 it does. So how it came to me is that it came out of 77 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.399 my doctoral work, as you know, and I was interested at that point 78 00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:00.560 to see how people who taught about race and racism in racially diverse classrooms and 79 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:08.639 higher education succeeded in doing that and succeeded in doing something that when that topic 80 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:13.199 was being broached outside of those contexts, a lot of things weren't happening. 81 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:17.639 Right, So outside of the classroom, the successful classroom talking about race was 82 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:27.680 about emotion. There was a sense of ungroundness in history that you really couldn't 83 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.759 rely on what has occurred or a sense of reality. There was a low 84 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.120 trust among people. Things would blow up all the time. And as we 85 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:39.680 all experienced that and observed that, my thought was like, well, when 86 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:44.079 this happens in classrooms, that doesn't seem to be happening. So what is 87 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:49.480 it about a classroom setting that makes this feasible? Not only but also profoundly 88 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:57.439 moving and transforming for learners. And so I went and studied two successful thought 89 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:03.879 race courses, courses on race and racism though slavery in one case and African 90 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:09.839 American political thought and another to watch what they were doing. So I won't 91 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:14.600 bore the audience to it's like the details of the research. But what that 92 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.439 the answer to that study, to that question was this method. And so 93 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.519 that's the first piece of it. So then in telling you what the method 94 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:28.720 does, I'll tell you what what's cool about the pedagogy The community has to 95 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.680 do with leveraging what I call grounding for learning, which is what classroom is 96 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:39.040 basically made of, in order to empower people. In this case, you 97 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.439 know, the first instance it was college students. But we can talk about 98 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:47.639 how that's anyone to be more empathetic towards one another and to be more intellectually 99 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:55.720 brave. So the both the sort of mechanism is a pedagogical mechanism, but 100 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.319 also the advantage that it gives you is that it it helps you to look 101 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:08.959 at one another as learners so accept that one another can change, can grow, 102 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.560 that we can find common ground if we have the same content that we're 103 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:18.079 dealing with and that we can sort of be solid in our interaction with each 104 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:23.560 other if we make some agreements about how we're going to interact. So it's 105 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:30.120 it's about what is special about a learning environment that makes it more suitable than 106 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:35.720 you know, Twitter and Facebook. And it's it's funny too because it's it's 107 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:40.079 the so many like if we hop online, you know, so to kind 108 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.399 of draw up the other side here in terms of conversations like you know, 109 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.639 Twitter, Facebook, social media, the kind of other quote unquote public arenas 110 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:51.759 or platforms. It's it's really interesting because there is this there's been this kind 111 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:58.399 of pervasive narrative that from the tech elite. We might say, you know, 112 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.680 from the from the very business for folks, that you don't need to 113 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.040 go to college, you don't need to get a college education. You know, 114 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:07.160 you just need to like figure out a coding skill and then you know, 115 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.079 hop into a startup and develop some nice product that somebody needs. Then 116 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:16.120 you can get rich and then everybody worship you. And it's funny because while 117 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.360 on the one, idea like that points us towards an anxiety people have about 118 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.920 developing careers, pathways and livelihood, it totally ignores this side also, which 119 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:30.639 is this fundamental side of what it is that classrooms and educational apparatuses and spaces 120 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:35.519 can do for us, like the training of a skill like this is how 121 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:39.039 I read the American novel, you know, and which is still valuable too. 122 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.279 But but I think that's that's a really important piece too, that that 123 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.919 you don't necessarily right now see on a you know, on a college curriculum 124 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.120 or even at a like faculty meeting. You know, you may not see 125 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:56.320 this this kind of forward idea of like we're actually intentionally framing engagement with one 126 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.679 another a specific way that allows us to both see each other or as learners 127 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.519 able to change. And I think this is really important, you know. 128 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:05.360 I mean, so even as we're as we're going to dive into a brave 129 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:07.639 community itself, even this framework, I mean, I mean, to your 130 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.200 point is, as you said too, we're we're gonna look at how we're 131 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.039 addressing the challenges of racist thinking, racist thought, and how do we address 132 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.159 these emotionally charged spaces and conversations and empathetic and open ways. But then on 133 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.759 top of that too, I think there's there's a huge value here too in 134 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:28.759 terms of how do we articulate the value of a you know, pedagogical approach 135 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.159 to challenges like this, So just an extra extra high five for like, 136 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.559 there's there's other piece I think that like we could also bring and to give 137 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:37.559 colleges like, hey guys, this is the way to think about this. 138 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.399 Absolutely. I will also say that I think this this sexus into the idea 139 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:46.240 of the foundation of brave community being what I call grounding for learning. So 140 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.879 I'll touch on that next. But what you're talking to about is reminding me 141 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.720 of a much older, a much older controversy that we have in this country 142 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:03.519 about the usefulness of things like general educ cation requirements, humanities and the humanities, 143 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.759 right, which the humanities are just like I like to say, a 144 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:11.600 fancy word for human culture, expressions of human culture, and we just tend 145 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.240 to think they're very remote and for all kinds of issues having to do with 146 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:22.399 the choices that higher education institutions have made to be not inclusive. Right. 147 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.080 So that's a whole different podcast and a different soapbox that I can get on. 148 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.759 But the fundamental issue that you're raising is that those kinds of educational endeavors 149 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:37.919 which were core to American hired when it was founded, When American Hired was 150 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:41.039 founded, there wasn't a real understanding that, Look, people just don't wake 151 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.279 up knowing how to be in a moltiracial democracy. Right, We're going to 152 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:50.799 need to practice this. And at first they weren't even trying to be a 153 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.360 moltiracial democracy. Right, this is like fifty years of that, But still 154 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.480 there was a sense that this needs to be practiced. Both from the get 155 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.480 go people don't have that skill, but also you've got to keep flexing that 156 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:09.519 muscle, the muscle of having evidence based, text based and text I mean 157 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:16.320 that in a broad possible sense, but content based interact and engagement with one 158 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:22.399 another around these norms of empathy and you know, accommodation and negotiation of terms 159 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.159 and sort of like you know, your experience is entangled with another person's experience 160 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.720 and you're sort of in we're all in this together. We've done a really 161 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.799 horrible job of getting rid of that, and so we end up having to 162 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:46.600 have we now have these masters of the universe who lacktic basic ethical, humanistic 163 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:52.360 orientations, whether we're talking about the tech people that everybody's thinking about, or 164 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:58.600 the Supreme Court justices who have seemingly like less ethical point of view than like 165 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.080 a twelve year old you know, where they can be taking a bribe and 166 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.759 be like I didn't know I was taking a bribe anyway, big digression as 167 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.279 you and I are wants to have. But yes, back to the grounding 168 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.279 for learning. Yes, no, But I think it's an important point though. 169 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.200 I mean, I'm you know, I think it's it's a useful rabbit 170 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.200 hole too, because it is also just giving us a sense of when we're 171 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:24.440 thinking about the usefulness of pedagogy. The idea of us discussing this right now 172 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.200 is to show a little bit about what it's up against. Right like listeners 173 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:31.759 of this podcast may or may not, you know, be be anti education 174 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.799 hopefully not you know, or like anti going to higher ed. I doubt 175 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:37.159 it, But just like this idea too that like there is the narrative out 176 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:41.879 there in terms of like what is the use value of of of a higher 177 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:43.480 education in this case? And I think what you're raising there is this fundamental 178 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.159 point that there is aspects to our humanity that we take for granted, and 179 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:50.759 part of it comes to us a lot through through an education system that, 180 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:52.480 like yes, has its own problems. That's that's what we're going to be 181 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.519 kind of dive into it in the Brave Community format. But then this other 182 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.919 idea of how do we counter some of these other at these you're prevailing narratives, 183 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.559 And so I think there is also again there's room even as we think 184 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.159 about Brave Community too, like if we have to also then say, this 185 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.879 is why this kind of education is valuable, right, we have to, 186 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.960 Like the way you said, we don't just wake up knowing how to operate 187 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.159 functionally and appropriately in the multiracial democracy. That's not that's not a given, 188 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.600 as much as we tell ourselves it is. Yeah, And you know as 189 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.240 a as a sociologist of culture too, like and you would know this too. 190 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:30.200 The society itself is one big giant classroom, right, it is. 191 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:35.720 It is a pedagogical force unlike any other. And it is actually teaching us 192 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.919 a script and teaching us a way to think about ourselves and our condition. 193 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:46.360 And so you do want to have like a kind of obvious counter to the 194 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.120 prevailing lesson that the society is teaching you. So it's kind of like, 195 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.559 yes, I have a pedagogical approach, but also why wouldn't you have a 196 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.600 pedagogical approach. The whole thing is a pedagogical approach. Right, Yeah, 197 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.559 I'm not you know, I'm not here to say everybody needs to go to 198 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.000 college at all, like my kid didn't go to college, but I will 199 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.720 say everybody needs to be learned at all times. You know, how to 200 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.360 negotiate becoming a person in a way that allows other people around you to become 201 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.519 people too, versus something quite opposite that, which is what we're up against. 202 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.519 Right, So yeah, okay, grounding for learning. Yeah, let's 203 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:26.799 let's dive into So there is this like one of the I mean, we 204 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.879 may sell at the ground level, right, It's it's like kind of like 205 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.600 the basis you found so in the case studies that you did, and then 206 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.879 also you find yourself. You kind of talk about this as grounding is what 207 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:37.279 the what the classroom is made of, what it helps us do. So 208 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.480 it's kind of like to me, I'm thinking about if I'm in a garden, 209 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.120 this is the dirt that we have to stick our roots into. So 210 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.559 how do we set the soil the proper way? How do we make it 211 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:50.480 fertile for these kinds of engagements? Yes, so big idea with very I 212 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.399 love this very big ideas. I think this is true for throughout the book, 213 00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.519 very simple executional, huge return on investment. Grounding for Learning is the 214 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:07.639 foundational brave community and it is exactly that it's the dirt that allows two kinds 215 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.720 of plants to grow. Now you're going to have to remind us of this 216 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:16.279 metaphor because you and I tend to have metaphor bloat problem. But we're doing 217 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.840 gardens. We're doing we're doing garden, We're doing gardens. So it's the 218 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.320 dirt to that allows two kinds of plants to grow. That we really like, 219 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.200 that bravery and that empathy, and how does it do that. Grounding 220 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.360 for Learning is a combination of two things, both content for learning and culture 221 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:39.399 of learning. They need to be together. So when you're approaching a group 222 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.120 of people, and then i'll give a very specific example, you want to 223 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:46.519 have both things. So content for learning is everything, but everything that is 224 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.879 content that is evidence, that is data that is not unfounded opinion. So 225 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.240 in the book there's literally a parenthesis that says not unfounded opinion. And it's 226 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.279 a very twenty twenty two things to have to say. You know that you 227 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.720 can't just say this is what content is. I literally had to say, 228 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.519 not your vibes and feelings. It's not your vibes and feelings, but that's 229 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:12.759 content. What are we using to learn and think about and work on this 230 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:19.080 issue of race and racism? Combined with an attention to how we're going to 231 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:25.840 approach this content and one another. So there you have things that are about 232 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:30.279 the norms of the discussion, the ways of being that are going to support 233 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:36.039 a learner to be engaged and to push themselves, but also receive that when 234 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:38.600 someone else is being engaged in pushing themselves. So when you have both of 235 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:45.080 those things together, that is what allows people the highest likelihood to have this 236 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.600 kind of bravery and this empathy. Why, because they then get two things. 237 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:53.679 They get clear about what we're talking about. So we're not talking about 238 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:59.480 the broadest broadest strokes of white supremacy. Now, let's talk about something very 239 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.440 specific. So think about a classroom and obviously you think about the curriculum, 240 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.799 and obviously you think about the reading for that week, let's say. But 241 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:15.680 then you think about a school having a di meeting, and yeah, they're 242 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:21.640 not thinking about white supremacy in schools they are going to think about the racial 243 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:29.599 disparity in the discipline records of girls and boys or some version like that, 244 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:34.559 something very concrete. So that's content. The second thing is the subject matter 245 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.000 is hard, we know it, but we're going to deal with it. 246 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.079 And so how do we need to be with one another end with this content? 247 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:45.480 So those considerations can range from how we're going to treat each other, 248 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.160 but also what we're not going to do, So you can make agreements in 249 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.880 advance about we're not going to go off content. We're not going to go 250 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.680 off topic. We're not going to have a conversation about, you know, 251 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:02.359 going back to that school. We're here to discuss the racial disparity and discipline. 252 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:04.920 We're not going to have a conversation about how you don't like Black Lives 253 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:10.400 matter signs in the principles door. That's neither here nor there for what we're 254 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.960 talking about. Right when those two things are together, folks know what we're 255 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.200 here to talk about, and they have expectations about how we're going to treat 256 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:22.319 each other. That what allows you to lean into that bravery and into that 257 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:25.880 empathy. And I think that that's such an important piece too, of how 258 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.599 do we set the stage right of the conversation or basically, what do we 259 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:30.759 we'll keep our garden metaphors, how do we like, how are we watering 260 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.559 the soil the right way so that certain kind of plants can grow? And 261 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.359 and this idea, I think it's really important too, because you know, 262 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.559 one thing that you kind of talk about in the book too is understanding a 263 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:42.839 bit when you're setting the framework up. It's like you kind of have a 264 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.759 section that's both about when race matters and when it doesn't matter. And this 265 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.559 is again like how we're talking about race and like, you know, when 266 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.079 and why we might capitalize white and black and when we don't need to, 267 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.799 and like and also this this other kind of idea that who is the method 268 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:57.079 for right? And so in part of this too, like because a lot 269 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.440 of the conversations that we've seen classrooms and obviously in the political realm and online 270 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:03.480 too, this is this is the other grounding piece right when you're in the 271 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.119 classroom, we can kind of then point towards these other areas if we need 272 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:10.119 to. We're just noting that, like as a contrast to how we might 273 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.680 set this up in the classroom when we were talking about political discourse or dire 274 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:18.559 tribe online. Right, there's there's we see things like who's allowed to talk 275 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.519 about race and what parts of race and who can be part of the conversation 276 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.519 and parts of what conversation and so this isn't you know? So we see 277 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:30.720 inklings of what does it mean to set boundaries? But then oftentimes we see 278 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.599 all transgressions of those boundaries because either they're not fully defined where someone doesn't respect 279 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.400 them, or on top of that, then we just lump in more and 280 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.240 more and more stuff because he said race, let me let me pick the 281 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.200 other five things that come to mind versus our actual substantive content because we did 282 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.359 a reading on one piece, so part of it, I mean, I'm 283 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.079 curious about this too, thinking about it if as folks are kind of wrapping 284 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.440 their minds around how do we set the stage? So part of it two 285 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:52.839 in the work that you saw both think classrooms. Then if if we're bringing 286 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.920 this into other kinds of meetings too, it is important to have some level 287 00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.039 of content to engage with together. Is that something? Am I was I 288 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.240 reading that properly? Like you want to have either readings, podcasts, some 289 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:07.480 content that you build together. Yeah. So in the book, this is 290 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.920 a great question because I did want to say the most important thing is like, 291 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.400 Okay, let me help you your audience think about, Okay, what 292 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.400 does this look like. So in the book, I have the steps, 293 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.799 you know, I have a really wonderful chapter that is like step by step, 294 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.920 you know, you go and you do this and get back to me. 295 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.000 So let's think of an example. Give me an example. You're a 296 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:37.200 someone in a tech company and you're going to have a discussion about the lack 297 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:44.240 of racial diversity in your recruitment of engineers. Okay, ye, so that's 298 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.920 your that's your problem. You're you're the brave community gardener, and that is 299 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.319 the that's the situation you're trying to set up. Okay, what I would 300 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:53.839 want you to do according to the method, what we do is first we 301 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.920 take inventory of the situation with this grounding idea. So we do a grounding 302 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.200 inventory. So I'm that person I'm going in, I'm maybe I'm maybe the 303 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.680 d I professional at that tech company, and I'm going to have this meeting 304 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.880 and there's going to be all hands, like all staff are there, and 305 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.480 I'm going to lead this conversation. So I literally write down on one side 306 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.759 of a piece of paper content and on the other side of the piece of 307 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.839 paper culture, and that's my inventory. It's not it's very analog. So 308 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.279 I'm sitting there with my pen or I'm talking into my voice note whatever, 309 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.799 whatever you prefer, and I'm thinking in terms of content. Okay, assuming 310 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.799 I have some content expertise and we can, we're going to break that down. 311 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.319 But mcgiven you know that this is going to happen on a Tuesday, 312 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.880 that we have two hours to do it, what material am I going to 313 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:47.640 bring for the team to get their heads around this problem? So that's on 314 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:52.440 my content column, and I'm writing down, like our recruitment data, our 315 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:57.960 racial demographics, maybe there's some climate data that we took where people you know, 316 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:03.079 in that particular or subset of engineers or in the larger organization or flagging 317 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.359 this issue and they're frustrated. We said we're going to fix it in twenty 318 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:11.440 twenty, and we have it right, some version of limited content, very 319 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.680 targeted to the organization and to the question at hand, that people can either 320 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.880 look at during the time or briefly before. So you're not giving, you're 321 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.480 not sending, You're not in a position most of us I don't know about 322 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.319 other people to send people go get PhDs like real quick before I talk to 323 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.400 you. So this is what you've been doing. So are you writing that 324 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.440 down content? And then for culture, have there been trainings about I don't 325 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.920 know, interstaff discussion. Do you have protocols that you usually do that work 326 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.359 really well for talking about hard things? If you don't, what are you 327 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:47.240 going to do about that? Also under culture, is this a group that 328 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:52.920 gels well together and can have hard conversation or is this a literal power kike? 329 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:57.240 So you sit there and you have to think about this context before you 330 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.400 go do the brief community thing. Right, this is like your pre work 331 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.400 in the chapter I call it pre work. A couple of things are true. 332 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:07.480 That gets to your question if your culture column is not looking very good, 333 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:11.599 there are things in the book that I tell you that you can do 334 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.119 to get that fixed in a real time, you know, generate more empathy. 335 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.839 There's some norm exercises that I suggest that you can do. If you 336 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.839 know that you're in a room that's kind of cold to the issue, right, 337 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.640 Sometimes you are, sometimes you're not. We could do something on that 338 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.039 day. Then I'm very clear that if you do your inventory and there is 339 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:36.079 a blank content column and you don't have no content, the book is like, 340 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:41.079 I am like, don't do it. Stop stop, go get some 341 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:47.880 I don't know it, go go know it, Go get some why Because 342 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.839 that's the line. The grounding is the difference. So you're you're doing grounding 343 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.160 and then you're doing brief community. If you're not grounded, you're not doing 344 00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:00.200 brief community. You might be doing good things. Things might still go for 345 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.279 you, of course, but that content piece needs to be there too, 346 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:08.839 exactly to your point, to give us parama and you know, solid soil 347 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:12.079 under our feet to stand on, so we're not all over the place, 348 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:17.400 and in the case of this example, to make it very context specific. 349 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:22.000 So what would that be. Maybe there's a real cool short article, podcast 350 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:29.480 video presentation about the egregious patterns of racial disparity in tech engineering, which we 351 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:33.079 have, right something. So at that point, last thing, I'll say, 352 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.000 you can be smart about your selection, right, what kind of material 353 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:41.240 is not gonna it's gonna be the most open to appear the most neutral for 354 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.799 that content, you know, is it going to be an op ed from 355 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:51.160 political No? Probably not that's probably not your best content, you know, 356 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.680 but also you don't need to be I don't know, getting depending on the 357 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.880 organization you're in, maybe an academic journal on the you know, like the 358 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.440 disparities and the field or not is not ideal, so you're gonna be able 359 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:03.880 to pitch it. But yes, something that people are going to get their 360 00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:11.759 heads around together in real time. Yeah, and that's that's such an important 361 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.039 piece, and I appreciate you you're breaking that down. I'm in a very 362 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.279 concrete way because I think at one level it opens up the the reality that 363 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:25.319 if we're approaching these kind of conversations and organizations, whether they're an academic institution, 364 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:29.000 whether there are our tech company, whether there are our di group within 365 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.319 an organization, yeah, that we we don't want to show up just blank 366 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.839 saying let's have a conversation. You know, the goal is to build dialogue, 367 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.799 but unless you have a foundation with which to build on. And again 368 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:44.640 this sets again this this kind of question of boundaries of like how what is 369 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:45.880 what are the questions at hand? To I guess there's something else that you 370 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.759 said that that sit out to me there too. It's it's more like, 371 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.279 how do we even decide the content to bring, it has to address the 372 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:53.720 question that we are interested in. So in this case, if it's like, 373 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.200 how do we think about and address the racial disparity of hiring practices of 374 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:00.359 engineers? Are not organization in this case, right, or how do we 375 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.680 address I mean that's that's a great example for all organizations, right, and 376 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.119 an academic institution, you know, the racial disparity in hiring practices amongst studentior 377 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:11.680 faculty and senior faculty, and amongst student body in terms of acceptance rates and 378 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.960 in high school classrooms. You know. So it's like it's an important piece. 379 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.200 And then also again I appreciate this idea that don't get the first see 380 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.440 in an article or Politico or BBC article you find and say this is this 381 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:25.640 is it here, here's our story, right, Like we have to be 382 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:29.799 intentional about the kind of content that we also curate there and it's like a 383 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.240 third see I'm thinking about their two rights. It's curated. Yeah, that's 384 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.200 like a big ce in the beginning. The other thing about that I want 385 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.240 to say about content that I mentioned in the book is like the question then 386 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:41.519 becomes well how much content? Yeah, you know, and people get very 387 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.400 paralyzed. So the first thing I want I want listeners to know is don't 388 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.480 get parallezed. It literally, knowledge is infinite. The idea that that you 389 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:56.680 could actually have some kind of foresight omniscience to know exactly what it's not possible. 390 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.920 So this is why the last I think, the last sentence is the 391 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.519 book is this is a practice manual. That's the last words I wrote. 392 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:07.079 I mean that. I mean that. So this is about what can you 393 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.039 practice? And so I say very specific. It's like you said, it's 394 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:17.200 content that will help solve the problem, and it's bound to be limited. 395 00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:18.799 So it says that you know, in the Book of the Phrases, the 396 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:23.839 content is bounded. And that's okay for two reasons. One, we will 397 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.440 be doing this over time, you don't have to hit it all at once. 398 00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:33.599 And two, it's not possible to not have bounded content. Right. 399 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.680 So, for example, in my practice, I end up doing I've landed 400 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:42.200 on through like you know, trial and error. Some combination of my content 401 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:48.039 usually has two dimensions to it without being overwhelmingly too much. I do a 402 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:52.519 little bit of history of the problem, and then I do something very specific 403 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.920 to the context. So if I'm into an organization. That's what I'm thinking 404 00:27:56.920 --> 00:28:00.880 about, right. So if I'm talking to a museum in the twenty twenty 405 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.079 era and their headline was like, museums are racist white supremacist organizations, stop 406 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:11.440 and be anti racist organizations. What those folks needed was both content about the 407 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:17.160 specific institutions what's going on there, but then also a little bit of a 408 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:23.480 primer on what is the relationship between like racial capitalism rit large and am I 409 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.759 am museum expert? I am not. So when I did my inventory, 410 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.359 I was like, oh, I gotta go research, find some a really 411 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.680 good piece, you know. And I found a really good chapter and a 412 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.440 really good book. I didn't write it, and the people I was with 413 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.599 knew that. I didn't pretend to know. I was like, hey, 414 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:48.279 I'm not a museum professional, but I have this method, but my method 415 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:52.519 is not content. Yeah, my method is a way to get content, 416 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:55.640 and this is what we're doing. And again that went worked out really well. 417 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:57.359 They could have not liked the book, they could have not liked the 418 00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:02.000 chapter, but we did it and it worked out. But the idea was 419 00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:07.799 the method directed me the infantor the content side was blank because that's not an 420 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.480 area of my expertise. No one's an expert in everything. And I was 421 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:14.039 like, oh, I gotta go get that before I show up with these 422 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:17.319 folks. And I think that's an important piece. And I think that you 423 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:22.240 know, to right that helping folks realize too when they're I mean pointing towards 424 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.799 how this kind of method is applicable kind of large in different institutions organizations. 425 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.480 Is this It's like it's not about these specific content itself, but it's like, 426 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.799 I think it helpful piece here too for me? Is I think about 427 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:37.599 this? Is that if I was doing working on practicing this method too and 428 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.960 again and a tech organization, and I would in this case maybe think about, 429 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.519 like if there's a book chapter social science that helps us get a sense 430 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.440 of hiring practices and tech organizations right, and then find some news stories that 431 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.039 were recent from this year that point out here's here's some examples or some stats 432 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.400 we have from Pew Research or whatever of hiring practices that we're seeing. And 433 00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:57.759 so again it's not this like I have to go do it. I have 434 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.160 to go do a deep, deep literature of view. I could if I 435 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.279 really wanted to write, if I'm into really getting into tech hiring practices, 436 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.039 which if that's my job should be. But but if I'm also coming in 437 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.400 as a consultant you're thinking about applying this, then it's like I can do 438 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.359 enough to get a series of neutral pieces of content, you know, and 439 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.400 this case could be like to your point two. Right, it's a book 440 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:18.400 chapter and a news story. And just give us that that parameters from which 441 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.960 we're going to build this discussion because it's addressing the specific question we want to 442 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.839 figure out of, you know, lack of diverse hiring practices and what's what's 443 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.720 fueling that? How do we how do we overcome that? Yeah? And 444 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:32.440 if you set up that way, yeah, if you set up that way, 445 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:33.799 if you think about it for the audience, Right, let's think about 446 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.319 that. That what you just describe. If I'm going into that meeting, 447 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:42.119 it's taking care of a few things for me. I'm not anxious about whether 448 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:48.000 or not I can say certain things. I'm not anxious about whether or not 449 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.519 I am allowed to speak on certain things. I'm not anxious about whether or 450 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.720 not the conversation is going to veer off to something else. Right, It's 451 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:03.279 gonna help me come in more ankle because I do feel grounded to be learning 452 00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:07.559 deeply, to be intellectually brave to ask things that are hard, because again, 453 00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.480 I have this container that you've set up for me with this like pure 454 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.599 research and this article, and you know I basically, you know, you 455 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.880 the teacher. You're outside in the wild, but you're basically the teacher you 456 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.720 assigned. You assigned the reading, and I know that I can come in 457 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:25.920 and talk about the reading. Yeah. Right, It's very different than like, 458 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.000 let's have a conversation about racism in our organization and then everybody white is 459 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.160 quiet and they kind of like surreptitiously look at the two people of color on 460 00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:38.240 the corner of their eye. That's a very different setup that we just described. 461 00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.960 The grounding, Yeah, totally. I think that's such. That's an 462 00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:47.319 important piece. And so so we have our we have our our grounding, 463 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:48.759 our soil set in place. And so then the idea here is that we 464 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.400 want to use this again to help facilitate a sense of empathy and braby. 465 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.119 So let's let's break down these two as our next Yeah, other next steps 466 00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:57.960 with these are the plants that we're kind of growing here, right, they're 467 00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:01.160 the plants. Yeah, they're the plants, and they're like, they're a 468 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:06.039 vine. They are a vine. They're entangled together. Our metaphor is working, 469 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.200 all right, yeah, so far, so good. The vine has 470 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.079 like the bravery interwoven with the resilient empathy. So let's take them one at 471 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:16.960 a time. The bravery is essentially what you think it is in your gut 472 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.920 when you hear me say it. It's encouraged to ask these questions. And 473 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:27.319 that's right, that's right. But okay, most learning has that demand. 474 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.079 The discomfort. The threshold, which is what propels your learning forward, is 475 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:35.960 the gap in what you understand and you say, okay, wait, I 476 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:37.720 look, I used to think of it this way, and now I have 477 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:44.759 this like looming looming flashlights suggesting to me that I'm not thinking about this the 478 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:49.400 right way. And what that happens to you in public or in community. 479 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.920 There's two things that could happen. You embrace that, you try to close 480 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.599 that gap by growing up, growing your thoughts and learning more, or you 481 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:05.319 retract because you're scared. So bravery is about not retracting and having the fortitude 482 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:09.960 to push, to push your thought process, to push your fellow learners or 483 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:13.799 colleague. I always say, like, we all know. I tell people 484 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.480 this story because I think it's vivid in our minds. You're learning about something, 485 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:21.200 you're a you're in a dialogue, you're in a process, and then 486 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.519 you come to that fork in the road and it sounds like, man, 487 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:28.519 I really wish I could ask this question, but I don't think so it's 488 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:31.200 only Monday, or I don't trust these people, or we want you to 489 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.000 be able to ask that question. That which arises naturally in your process of 490 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.240 inquiry needs to be asked. So that's what that bravery is. However, 491 00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:46.880 to do that, you have to be received in good faith. So my 492 00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:50.880 friend, my friend Jake, I think I give him a shout out in 493 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:52.799 a book for telling me, for forgiving me this language, like that's his 494 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:58.359 expertise, Like he'll just give me the perfect he said, you mean with 495 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.160 empathy, what you mean is listening bravery. There's a bravery and yeah, 496 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:05.000 right, he's good, he's good. Shout the Jake. So that there's 497 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:08.920 a bravery and expressing what you need for your learning. And there's a way 498 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:15.719 that your community can hear you with bravery, and that means opening the space 499 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:20.719 for it. Counting the ten when you're driving them a little bit crazy and 500 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.239 just having extending grace and good faith. So that's the other piece. So 501 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:32.239 spoiler alert, everybody loves the bravery plant, the resilient empathy plant. People 502 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.159 have a lot of problems with it. Yeah, I mean I can well 503 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:38.480 I'm treating I've both I've read the book. But I'm also like, okay, 504 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:43.119 I'm thinking about this if we haven't read the book yet, what I 505 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.760 would speculate that sounds weird to do this since I've already read it, but 506 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:49.519 like, but this idea in terms of that, I would either get mad 507 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:52.679 when somebody says something that offends me, or I may say I'm afraid I'm 508 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.639 gonna say something that's gonna offend somebody else. And so either of those feels 509 00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:00.519 like I'm either not going to be treated empathetically or that I'm not to extend 510 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:05.360 empathy to somebody else that if they approach something in a way I feel uncomfortable. 511 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.519 Is that how I could talk about them? Yes, exactly, And 512 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:14.000 so what where what I talk about in the book, And I want to 513 00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:17.280 say, like, there's deep gratitude in the entirety of this trajectory. So 514 00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:21.760 this is almost like not quite a decade, but like seven years of work 515 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.000 for all the people who have been in community with me and workshops and classrooms 516 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:32.400 who've taught me so much what the nuance and texture of the method is through 517 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:37.599 practice, And so there was a lot of stuff that needed to happen in 518 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:43.039 terms of how you boost people to have these qualities and sustain them that I 519 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.840 didn't really know until people were letting me know that they needed these boosts. 520 00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:52.760 So yes, grounding for learning and setting that up gets you along at a 521 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:57.440 lot of the way, almost all the way, but people do struggle along 522 00:35:57.480 --> 00:36:00.199 the way. So for the Bravery, the boost is just to acknowledge when 523 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:05.639 it's happening, right to be like to see you. So I'm in I'm 524 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.760 in dialogue with you, we're in we're in the brave community bubble. And 525 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.480 you say something like I'm not sure I want to say this, and I 526 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:15.920 say to you, no, you definitely should say it. Then, So 527 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.800 that's a way for me to say, I know, I know what you're 528 00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:23.400 I'm sure your heart, you're your process racing a little bit too fast and 529 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:27.119 stuff, but that's exactly what you need to be doing. So I do 530 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.079 this in the room all the time. I'll tell people me too, my 531 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.639 hands just got cold. I know exactly what's going on. But then, 532 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.480 didn't we say that we were going to lean in and be brave? Right? 533 00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.840 Didn't we agree when we were setting up culture that this is this was 534 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.880 going to happen. So this is a crucial time for us to push or 535 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.119 you can bounce it around, you can say, okay, if people are 536 00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.559 really quiet, A lot of people are really quiet. Is there anybody here 537 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:55.400 that feels like they can push us? We feel a little stuck. So 538 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.039 that's one version of that boost. For the end boost, it's a little 539 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.239 bit more subtle. And so what you might want to do is think about 540 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:10.320 ways to do things that you usually do in a group, like icebreakers or 541 00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:16.000 introductions in a way that is warming, in a way that really signals everybody's 542 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:21.320 humanity before the discussion. And I don't mean this in like a corny way, 543 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:28.199 but certain like very simple adjustments. Right instead of everybody say their name 544 00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:32.119 and their favorite color of what they ate today, everybody says their name and 545 00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:38.039 where they work and when the last time you felt content? What's a question 546 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:44.559 that we can all answer briefly that has a like a modicum of humanity and 547 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:50.639 vulnerability and authenticity to it that everybody can answer yea that they are not likely 548 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.280 to have a prepackaged answer to. You do something like that before any discussion, 549 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.719 throw out brave community before any discussion. It changes the quality of the 550 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:04.559 dis Yeah, I really, I really like that too, and it's it 551 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.440 is it's good advice for life. And also yeah, just human engagement and 552 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.440 and value in terms of this of how do we ask ask questions in a 553 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.320 way that both generate a set of being together, inquiring together. But then 554 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:19.079 also yeah, we'll generate the human response. And it's funny because that's something 555 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.000 else that I mean, I'm thinking about, like the the one of the 556 00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.920 challenges that has arisen just on the sense of life on the podcast over the 557 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:29.480 past few episodes. It's been interesting that, I mean, I've done a 558 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:36.320 lot of episodes recently on technology development and artificial intelligence, and again as as 559 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:40.519 a as an adjacent set of conversations. It's interesting because this idea of forgetting 560 00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:45.519 our humanity is actually one of the subtexts of the problems that we find ourselves 561 00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.960 running into because we're so interested in like getting the numbers and the ordinals right 562 00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:52.840 that we don't pause and think about it. Is this the world that I 563 00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.360 want to create? Is it's like, what are the basically what are the 564 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:59.000 norms that we're actually what are the what's the grounding that we're setting that we're 565 00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:02.679 putting out here? Yeah, with this technology versus saying, let's start from 566 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:07.039 this this point of humanity and ask ourselves like, what does contentment look like 567 00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:10.280 to you? Or was the last time you were short? Short answer R. 568 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:15.360 Yeah. I think this is such an interesting thing that you brought it 569 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.480 up because, as you may know, the book, the next nonfiction book 570 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:23.000 I'm working on is on that is on the digital implications for society. And 571 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:30.599 part of what this this revolute for I don't know what I mean dystopian thing 572 00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:35.800 that we're dealing with both social media and now even more so with AI and 573 00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:38.440 we will not go down this rabbit hole, but is that they are taking 574 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:45.679 away our ability to have these fundamental resources. These are fundamental resources for a 575 00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:52.719 host of human practices of convivlience, solving, sustainability, the democratic practice, 576 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:59.880 a host of things are required like depend on the same soil that learning the 577 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:04.280 pends on. And we're getting rid we're playing with getting rid of them, 578 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:08.960 and empathy is one, and a sense of our common humanity or the experience 579 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:14.559 of humanity is one. Yeah. Yeah, a reverence for that stuff. 580 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.239 Caind of stuff seriously as opposed to rolling your eyes out it like who cares? 581 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:20.920 Like what it's like? No, that stuff, If you get rid 582 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:27.199 of that stuff work nowhere. Yeah, So resilient empathy I call it that 583 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.760 because to your previous point, you don't tend to want to extend it in 584 00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.760 the context of brave community. And that's a really interesting idea of resilience there, 585 00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:43.280 right. It's that it's the capacity to withstand the desire to not to 586 00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.400 not be nice. Yeah, that's a really nice translation, thank you, 587 00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:51.079 Adam. Like, yes, in the books it has an eloquent definition, 588 00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:57.239 but it's something like the ability to put yourself in someone else's even when they're 589 00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.639 learning is challenging you. But yeah, what you said is like your ability 590 00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:05.400 to be resilient to the fact that you don't want to be nice to this 591 00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:07.760 person, you don't want to extend trust to this person, you don't want 592 00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:12.159 to count to ten yea. And so in the book I go deeply into 593 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.320 of course, the fact that in our world that is a skewed world where 594 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:21.480 there's a hierarchy of power in terms of race and racism that is abhorrent and 595 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:27.079 we need to work against over I'm being very general here. People of color 596 00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:31.400 would be well within their rights to have a deficit of empathy for white people, 597 00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:36.920 and white people would be well within not their rights but their reality to 598 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.119 have fear that people of color will not extend that empathy to them. That's 599 00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.840 just real. So what the method allows us to do is create these where 600 00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:52.239 we can engineer those conditions for all, including cross racially. And that's what 601 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.599 the grounding does. So when I come into a room, to be very 602 00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:59.519 concrete, when I come into a room and I'm applying the method, and 603 00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:05.079 I do I call establishing grounding, I do something like back landing norms to 604 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.960 first move people into this idea how we're going to be together, and basically 605 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:15.480 myself and the community that I'm in, we construct our norms together and I 606 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:19.840 solicit this from the group. I don't tell them what it is. They 607 00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:22.559 tell me what it is. What are we gonna need? What do you 608 00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:24.320 go around the room? What do you need for this to go well? 609 00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:29.280 And not be another disaster, not d I from Hell? How do we 610 00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:32.760 make sure this is not d I from Hell? And consistently over seven years, 611 00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:38.159 consistently, regardless of who's in the room, what do they say Open 612 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:45.480 minded honesty, different versions of the word, but basically empathy, the ability 613 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.239 to ask questions. And then they'll say things that really speak to our culture. 614 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.760 They'll be like applicability, not waste my time. Like you get a 615 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.199 lot of like you get a lot of feelings, but those key things like 616 00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:00.599 for me to learn, I need to be able to do it, and 617 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.559 I need people to treat me while when I'm doing it. Jason Isabel, 618 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.760 which is a very random thing to think about, but he's on a podcast 619 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.159 with Ada Victoria that people should listen to, and one of the things he 620 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:15.920 says as a southern white man in that podcast, they're in this beautiful cross 621 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:20.440 racial conversation and he says that people something to the effect that like, people 622 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.639 should have the ability to change their mind without losing love, self respect and 623 00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.840 self love or something like that. Yeah, that's a beautiful that's beautiful, 624 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:36.960 but that's also entirely what pedagogy That's worth its name is about. That's all 625 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.760 it is. Like people call distinguish critical pedagogy. I'm like, if the 626 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:45.599 pedagogy is not critical, it's not pedagogy. But that's not I'm just being 627 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:49.880 editorial. Yeah, it's not whatever you call yourself teaching. But if your 628 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:57.679 learner don't have the ability to change and grow without losing self respect and self 629 00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:02.159 love, you're not a teacher. You're doing some but you're not a teacher. 630 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:07.840 So that's important too. Yeah, it's hard, it's hard, but 631 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.679 we can do it. Like that's the thing about resilient empathy. And again, 632 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.400 why can we do it? Because the grounding provides a resource. And 633 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:16.719 one thing I'll say too, like for for listeners, if you're if you're 634 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:19.920 gonna curious about the method, but also again in the book too, like 635 00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:22.159 you you go through a number of examples, you know, verbatim conversations you 636 00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.719 have with people in these in these in these classrooms, in these, in 637 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:30.239 these meetings with with museum staff, with faculty, that where people ask the 638 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:34.440 ask about tough questions to kind of say either I'm uncomfortable or like you see 639 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.320 somebody getting heated, right, and like you talk about how I as the 640 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:42.480 facilitator have to then be assessing. I have to stay authentic and I have 641 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.159 to understand how I feel about it. I have to then pull out these 642 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:46.800 and again these tactics from my pocket that says, all right, you know, 643 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.639 I want to check are you okay right now? Like you see, 644 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.079 you seem really heated about this. Let's let's take a minute and think about 645 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:54.639 that. And like even these like again, if I'm saying this asn't as 646 00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:59.079 I'm reflecting, I'm reflecting as I'm saying this, that's just actually you're extending 647 00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:00.599 humanity to somebody by just saying, hey, are you okay right now? 648 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:05.119 I know this seems like you feel your pulses up, your voice is getting 649 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:07.159 bikky. Just want to check it feel okay first, Then we can move 650 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:09.320 on to the next, the next question old from there. And so even 651 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:14.960 the extending these spaces of space right to be human, to feel, to 652 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.519 think, and to I mean to model the idea that both we could ask 653 00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.800 the questions that come out of our gut, but then also we have room 654 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:27.599 to feel uncomfortable or excited or confused or whatever it is, right we can 655 00:45:27.679 --> 00:45:30.480 we can have those and have room to express that also. So again, 656 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.119 it isn't about shutting people down. So I think so much of the fear 657 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:37.280 that we have around conversations around race racism in the United States and especially in 658 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:39.239 the professional settings too, is that I'm going to get shut down, right, 659 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:43.280 I'm gonna get yelled at. I'm gonna be called called racist for saying 660 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.639 something. I'm going to either bell called combative if I don't so, depending 661 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:50.000 on what it is. And so there is like such fear around the conversations, 662 00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:52.920 and so I think like bringing this idea of grounding is actually just saying 663 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:55.239 I'm recognizing that emotions are fine, They're part of these conversations. And this 664 00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:59.840 is hard work, right, Like the the US and so much of the 665 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.480 Western rob have been, we've been conditioned to not talk about race, and 666 00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:06.320 if we do talk about it, we get told that we're either making something 667 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:07.920 up or like perpetuating a badity. You talk about this in the latter part 668 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.119 of the book too, of just why we need to post racist imagination in 669 00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:15.400 general, because so much of the broader narrative, right is that we don't 670 00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:17.159 talk about race. It's not a thing. It doesn't exist in the way 671 00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.880 that we're talking about critical race theory and questions of how do we talk about, 672 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:24.719 you know, structural racism and these like bigger sounding ideas institutional racism are 673 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.000 terms that are quote unquote we're not supposed to talk about in this broader political 674 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:31.840 context, but are very real for actually what shape how we even approach the 675 00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:37.679 conversation in the first place. Yeah, I think you reminded me of two 676 00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:44.039 things with that. One is this idea that you want to be able to 677 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:50.119 in the room sort of do what you're expecting people to do. So the 678 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:52.960 book talks about this post racist imagination, and we can talk about what I 679 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:58.079 mean by that, But ultimately, what I think I want people to understand 680 00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:00.360 is that, as as a brief community pract Tishner, which I hope everybody 681 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:06.000 that gets the book becomes one, this is possible. We all need to 682 00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:09.320 be doing this. You model for a group of people how to do this. 683 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:15.159 Now, in my experience, I don't always have to model when things 684 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.440 get hard. Other people in the room are happy to do that and they 685 00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:20.760 show up for me. But I think they're showing up for me as the 686 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:25.159 facilitator because we've connected as humans and they're like, oh, she's like she's 687 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:30.000 having to deal with a tough moment right now, and she's asking, can 688 00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:32.719 somebody jump in? And I will raise my hand and jump in so that 689 00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:37.400 happens right. But just like with everything in the model, there are two 690 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:42.000 go to moves. I always brag about this. I'm like, not ten, 691 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.400 not fifteen. This is not a martial arts courts. Two things that 692 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:51.920 you do when it gets tough, when you've done everything right and you're like, 693 00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.480 I did everything Johannine told me to do. I ground it. It's 694 00:47:54.519 --> 00:48:00.440 been going well, and then something occurs, something says, someone's has something 695 00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:05.119 bad. It blows up the things and it's quiet. It's that awkward silence. 696 00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:09.119 Yeah. Two things. You model the bravery that you all were doing 697 00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:15.239 before, and then you hold that community accountable to the grounding. So model 698 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.400 the bravery just means you name what's going on. Like you said, are 699 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.960 you okay? Because you sound real tense, you're kind of talking and a 700 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:27.480 real I just want you to know that you can take a break, but 701 00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.760 I just want to check or we're really quiet. The room just got really 702 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.199 quiet. I can't sit here and talk to myself. We don't have all 703 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.239 day. The meeting is almost over, so I'm wondering if someone who's not 704 00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:43.559 feeling overwhelmed can say what they think is going on right now. So that's 705 00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:45.760 modeling the bravery. It is not to take over the work. No, 706 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.199 people are like, don't, don't do people's works for them. This is 707 00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.079 not about that. This is about how do you push learning, keep learning, 708 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.880 keep learning through the hard stuff. That's one, and that the whole 709 00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:00.800 the community accountable is again just to explicitly say, wait a minute, we 710 00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:02.880 said we were going to be brave when it got hard to how do we 711 00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:08.239 restore that? The idea is this is a method that understands how humans actually 712 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:14.599 act, you know, and then we can still be human through the bumpy 713 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:19.199 parts. And that's really where it wins. Right If we have a moment 714 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:23.079 and it's hard, and we follow these very basic steps and it helps, 715 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:28.320 then you're golden. And here's like something that that brings us back to the 716 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:32.199 beginning question about like why are learning? Why a learning model? Why a 717 00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:37.320 learning approach to this particular topic? Right? I always say to people, 718 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:39.480 we keep saying we need to have conversations, and we don't. We've had 719 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:45.480 plenty of conversations and quite frankly they're terrible and they suck, and people hate 720 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:46.840 them. They don't want to have them. That's in my introduction, I 721 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:51.119 say something like that. Right, we don't want to have conversations about race. 722 00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:53.719 We've had too many. It's been hundreds of years, five hundred years 723 00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:59.679 by some counts, like come on, But what we want is learning about 724 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:06.159 race that will become transformative and allow people to improve the conditions of their existence. 725 00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:09.400 So that's a different thing, because where I'm after is learning about this 726 00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:14.840 issue, not talk about it. Talk is instructor everything and anything goes. 727 00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:16.159 I'm not the boss of you, You're not the boss of me. We 728 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:22.800 just talk. Learning has like goals, it has parameters, It has grounding, 729 00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:28.679 It has agreements that we can come too because we look at each other 730 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.400 as learning people, and how do we treat each other when we learn? 731 00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:36.800 And I can identify in myself as a learner what I need, it makes 732 00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:42.400 me recognize what you need. Your version of empathy might be different than mine. 733 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:47.360 Right, if you're as a white person, what's bravery for you in 734 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:51.480 this context is not the same as what's bravery for me. It may be 735 00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.519 sometimes sometimes it may not, depending on where you were born. Where you 736 00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:58.280 will raise etcetera, etcetera. We don't have to we don't have to get 737 00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:02.840 into that. But the but the substance of the of the mindset of the 738 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:07.920 state is the same. Similarly, for empathy, the substance of the state 739 00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.519 is the same. What it looks like is different, Like like we were 740 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:16.360 joking before recording that for me, empathy might be not rolling my eyes at 741 00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.719 you. Yeah, for you, empathy might be not feeling like why does 742 00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:23.559 she think she gets to talk just because it's about race? She talks all 743 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:28.760 the time, like whatever version of that. But the but the substance is 744 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:31.920 the same. It's a gesture of extension now and in the bravery side, 745 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:37.199 it's a it's a gesture gesture of risk taking. And that's all that's happening. 746 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:42.079 It's because we're thinking about learning. We're thinking pedagogic and that makes you 747 00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:44.440 want to send learning to everything now like this this is a great well well 748 00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:49.239 like all things told. Like in my worldview, learning culture is learning. 749 00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:53.519 Yeah, like the fundamental human like the Homo sapiens of it all. I 750 00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:57.280 don't get it right, Yeah, it's not just we're not born with it, 751 00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.360 right, Yeah, it's learning and it's practice. So it's like human 752 00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:06.079 culture ultimately is that it is is a pedagogical phenomenon. We just don't see 753 00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:08.519 it as that, but it is. And so like ultimately, change and 754 00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:15.880 improvement and what I call post racists practice and imagination is a learning endeavor for 755 00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.039 sure. Yeah, I think that's great and it's such an important piece too. 756 00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:22.840 I guess one thing I would ask with that too, Like I'm channeling 757 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:28.760 my inner listener here, and one thing I'm curious about is like, what's 758 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:30.920 what's one of the things that people really struggle with? You're like, what 759 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:34.760 do people tend to push back on if they're in sessions we're thinking about these 760 00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:38.679 that makes it hard for them to participate or kind of walk away. There's 761 00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:45.000 two things. One is they really struggle with the idea that I say in 762 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:50.800 the front of the book that the book the method is the same regardless of 763 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:54.599 the race, racial composition of who I'm talking to, who we are speaking 764 00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:59.880 with, and people really struggle with that for obvious reasons. We live in 765 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:06.360 racialized society. People's experiences diverge, of course, they are individualized, but 766 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:13.119 there's some grand consistent experiences that people who are white have that people who are 767 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:16.599 not white broadly don't don't have, et cetera. And so we tend to 768 00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:23.079 think very comfortably in racialized term. And so I say, off from the 769 00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:27.400 very beginning of the introduction, that's not what this method is. This method 770 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.280 is the same regardless of who's in the room, and people really struggle with 771 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:36.039 that. The reason I don't struggle with that is that to do it any 772 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:39.559 other way would be like, practically and ethically impossible. Practically, I could 773 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:47.320 never iterate enough versions of this method to fit every identity experience category. I 774 00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:51.159 could do it, but I would be lying to you if I were like 775 00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:54.239 brave community for people, Brave community for brasilience great, I mean, come 776 00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:59.480 on, So practically I couldn't do it. And then above and beyond, 777 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:02.000 like inter of my ethical commitment, I could not do it. Why again, 778 00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:07.360 this is a learning model. It is unnethical to try to forward project 779 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:14.960 growth of someone based on a few identity markers, even race. So it 780 00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:20.760 would be unethical for me to predetermine in advance what quote unquote abstract people of 781 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.880 color need. Black people need this version of it, White people need this 782 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:30.480 version of it. No people learning about this difficult subject matter research has shown 783 00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:34.119 me and practice has shown me need X, Y, and Z thing. 784 00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.280 They need grounding. Basically, they just need grounding, and when the grounding 785 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:40.639 fails, they need to be put back on the path. That I can 786 00:54:40.679 --> 00:54:45.400 say for everybody, but folks really really don't want to hear that. The 787 00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:51.920 second thing that people kind of don't want to hear is this post racist imagination 788 00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.159 idea. I mean, some people do, but some don't because they think 789 00:54:54.440 --> 00:55:00.000 I'm being like Obama era post racial and I'm not talking about that stuff. 790 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:04.480 I'm not talking about We're all going to turn beige and have babies with each 791 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:07.679 other and poof, the thing's gonna get fixed. That's not what I'm saying 792 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:13.719 at all. I'm saying that racism is a structural condition of most of the 793 00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:17.840 Western world, but it has an origin. It was, It is practiced 794 00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:23.199 and is learned. Therefore, logically it can be unlearned and it can be 795 00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:29.679 not practiced to the same extent. And so in our own lives communities, 796 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:37.000 classrooms, organizations, churches, libraries, there are things that we can do 797 00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:46.920 to limit the reproduction of racist experiences day to day. They don't eradicate them, 798 00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:52.079 but they limit them. So in a racist world, of course, 799 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:57.400 leadership positions and positions that pay more go to white people more than they go 800 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.000 to people of color. There are things that people in decision making roles can 801 00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:05.719 do to change that in their organizations, period point blank. That is what 802 00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.880 I call post racist practice. And so the imagination pieces, how do you 803 00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:17.199 think about a future where racism is not present while structural racism persists? How 804 00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:22.559 do you both engender that in people and sustain it so that they can keep 805 00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:28.880 thinking that, because that's how that world is going to be partly produced entirely. 806 00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.039 Again, this is not a structure versus culture argument, because that argument 807 00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:37.119 I find silly. But it's about we need There is a racist imagining that's 808 00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:44.440 five hundred years strong, and it is very very healthy. It's having a 809 00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:49.079 resurgence, you know. And I love Affair with Fascism. It's favorite. 810 00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:52.079 So it's like, we're really, so what do we do? What are 811 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:55.079 we doing because we don't have the power that they have, So what are 812 00:56:55.119 --> 00:57:00.880 we doing to sustain ourselves and to practice in a way that he both like 813 00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:05.039 that practice thing where you're thinking post racist and you're practicing, and then you're 814 00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:08.000 going back to thinking it and you're in this different loop. Yeah, people 815 00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:13.559 think I'm selling out and thinking small and they don't like that because I'm not 816 00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:17.039 going like structure or busts and I'm like, no, man, our problems, 817 00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:22.039 Our problems are big and they're historic, but we are. We are 818 00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:25.920 really working twenty four hours at it at a time humans And that's such a 819 00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:30.280 that's such a powerful point too, that like reminding us that that racism is 820 00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:36.880 practiced and learned. Therefore it can be unpracticed and unlearned. It's it's not 821 00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:39.360 a given format. And like in like the simplest like epo that we hear, 822 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.599 people says, oh, children are not born racist, and it's like 823 00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:44.400 we help. Yeah, that's a good example. Right, they have to 824 00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:45.719 be taught to be to have racial thinking, Like, yes it can, 825 00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.079 it can happen very early in their lives. But have to be taught to 826 00:57:50.519 --> 00:57:54.199 value one human form over another in one way of being over another. And 827 00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:57.559 like people don't argue that, but I think it's a really interesting point and 828 00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:00.840 I think it's such a key area for folks to remember too as we're thinking 829 00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:04.360 about practicing grave community or like what would it mean to try to implement it, 830 00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:08.639 like being aware of what obstacles mental obstacles you may run into as we 831 00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:13.639 begin to facilitate these kinds of conversations. And that's such an important one too, 832 00:58:13.639 --> 00:58:15.639 because it's like because really what it is is it's also coming up against 833 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:20.599 because I mean, the other another part of racism is that like there's no 834 00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:23.280 way out of it, right, Like like the racial imagination is like it's 835 00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:27.000 boxed in and there's anything that we do is not going to matter, right, 836 00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:30.519 There's no actual action we can do to make people not racist. Yeah, 837 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:34.840 and post racist imagination is standing standing outside of that box. Yeah, 838 00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:39.559 that racism has you in that actually is dictating what you think is possible, 839 00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:44.480 who you think you can trust, what you think winning is, what you 840 00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:49.920 think losing is. All kinds of really problematic things are in that racist box 841 00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:54.559 that we are by default living in unless we're doing something very deliberate and consistent 842 00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:58.559 to live outside of it. So there is no neutral stance, which is 843 00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:02.800 another problem that the West, when the world suffers from Western European descendant white 844 00:59:02.840 --> 00:59:08.039 supremacist democracies, suffer from that delusion that you could you could have such a 845 00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:13.159 monster as white supremacy out of the box, and that you ever have like 846 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:16.639 a status quo. I'm not really actually being I'm just okay, I'm not 847 00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:21.280 really like supporting the cause of racism. I know, yes you are, 848 00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:27.000 unless you're actively in reflective mode thinking differently all the time about it. Yes, 849 00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:30.840 you are supporting something that people will tell you all the time they abhor 850 00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:32.239 they don't support it. It's like, okay, well this is a way 851 00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:36.440 to practice that. Yeah, and that's an important part too, like when 852 00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:39.880 it comes down to it, because it's like it then I'm putting my listener 853 00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:43.519 hat on here too again where it's like it gets really big, really quickly 854 00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:47.000 when we start talking about the idea of post racist imagination, and so then 855 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.599 something I begin to feel paralyzed, like okay, well what do I actually 856 00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.800 do? And it's actually like again coming back to this learning model, coming 857 00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:57.000 back to the literal grounding as a human, Let's have a conversation together. 858 00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:00.480 Let's set the parameters of how we're engaging when we're talking about topic of need 859 01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.559 at the time in our organization, amongst our friend groups, whatever whatever is 860 01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.039 right amongst two friends, right, just having this conversation about something tough by 861 01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.920 saying, here's our grounding. I'm gonna extend my empathy to I'm going to 862 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:12.880 ask questions as they come up. I want you to do the same. 863 01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:15.679 Let's call each other out and reset the conversation if things feel like they're getting 864 01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:21.159 a little off the rails and recognizing that it's tough. But I think that's 865 01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:23.880 actually the power here too of the method, and like taking away from this 866 01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:28.519 conversation too, is that we're able to like really draw on our humanity. 867 01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:31.840 Right, we know how to set the rules of engagement to help push learning. 868 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.760 We know how to do that yet, yeah, and we can right 869 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:37.840 when things get big, It's okay, we just need to come back to 870 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:39.280 remember what are we here to do. We're here to push learning together. 871 01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:46.480 If I think about what I've learned the most practicing this, I've learned actually 872 01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:52.280 believe in that exact thing. I still go in a lot of rooms with 873 01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:55.119 that little voice in my head that's like, this is crazy, this is 874 01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:59.360 this is you don't know what you're talking about. It cannot work, it 875 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:02.679 will not work, and it does work. It does work. And so 876 01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:07.760 every time I myself that is how I practice my own post racist imagining, 877 01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:10.679 and I'm thankful for those opportunities because again, they are not widespread in my 878 01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.559 life. I'm not having a brave community experience twenty four seven, three sixty 879 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:19.559 five at all. I'm just a regular person and a black woman in America, 880 01:01:19.599 --> 01:01:22.599 and I'm pissed off a lot at the time, and my empathy is 881 01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:25.199 like at sub zero a lot of the time. And how dare you ask 882 01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:30.440 me for more? And my indignation is very righteous. I need it. 883 01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:36.119 I need my own version of the practice so that I can be in democratic 884 01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:39.719 and with people who are different than myself. It's not second nature for me, 885 01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:45.559 and we shouldn't expect it to be second nature for anybody. And so 886 01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:47.599 I think that's that's what I keep learning. I love it, and I 887 01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:51.400 guess that's a wonderful place to wrap this converse. So you need thank you 888 01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:52.480 so much. It's been so great to talk with you again. I'm really 889 01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:55.039 excited to get the book out of the community and have folks check it out. 890 01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:58.800 It is out now, so we're definitely check it out, yes, 891 01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:01.519 and let me know how those people. Yes, thank you was a pleasure, 892 01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:05.840 right on, jeers. And that's a wrap of today's episode of This 893 01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:09.280 Anthro Life. Now we've had an incredibly insightful conversation with Janie Davivation exploring the 894 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:13.679 importance of teaching towards a post racist maagination. So a huge thank you to 895 01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:16.159 Jannine for joining me on the podcast today. Throughout the episode, we've dived 896 01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:21.400 into the crucial notion of setting the stage for conversations on race, exploring when 897 01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:24.440 race matters and when it doesn't, and even delving into the impact of terms 898 01:02:24.519 --> 01:02:29.639 and language choices. Janie has provided us with practical tools such as connecting a 899 01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:34.960 grounding inventory and embracing the concept of brave community to navigate these discussions more effective. 900 01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:37.960 So I'm about you to take a moment to reflect them what we've learned 901 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:42.400 today. How does this conversation on teaching towards a post racist magination resonate with 902 01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:45.639 you? How might these insights apply to your own life or in the broader 903 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:47.960 society that we live in. At This Anthro Life, we believe that knowledge 904 01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:52.360 is most important when shared an engagement, So let's keep this conversation going. 905 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:55.360 I encourage you to connect on social media, gave a comment on the website, 906 01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:59.239 and share your thoughts and experiences and any questions that you might have a 907 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:02.320 really really valid your perspective and the diversity of voices within our community. And 908 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:05.719 if you're hungry for more on this topic, I recommend checking out your Need's 909 01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:07.679 book by a Brave Community and the website and show notes we'll give you more 910 01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:12.280 information of how to do that. Resources provided across that book, we'll give 911 01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:15.119 a ton of great understanding and content of FoST we've covered today, and I 912 01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:19.639 allow you to continue your own journey hours teaching in a post Racis imagination. 913 01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.519 And as always, just want to say a huge heartfelt thank you to you, 914 01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:25.239 our listeners, our viewers. Your support, enthusiasm and encouragement means the 915 01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:30.280 world to me and it's your continued commitment that inspires me and all of us 916 01:03:30.280 --> 01:03:32.760 here at TL to keep bringing you a thought provoking conversations. So it's always 917 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.039 make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform, video, audio, 918 01:03:37.159 --> 01:03:39.360 whatever it is. And if you enjoy what you here, again, 919 01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:42.599 it would mean a lot to me if you could either leave a review or 920 01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:45.480 share the episode with someone who you think would love it too. And if 921 01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:47.119 you're into more topics like this and want to just dive deeper, you can 922 01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:52.800 check out the anthrom Curious substack blog. It's the writing version of this podcast, 923 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.760 so we're going to dive even deeper into the fascinating worth of anthropology and 924 01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:59.000 many topics there as well. So thank you so much for being a part 925 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:01.239 of this Anthrom life and its sol Next time, keep questioning, keep exploring, 926 01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:04.119 and keep embracing the power of anthropology. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. 927 01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:04.960 We'll see you next time.