WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.040 Welcome back in your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo, and welcome to 2 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.360 this week's Thoughtful Thursday. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube at Hacking your 3 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.480 Leadership and leave us a review whatever podcast platform you're listening to on this Thoughtful 4 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.560 Thursday, I want to talk about micro management. Oh I like this. 5 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:19.000 You like being micromanaged? Uh no, but I like talking about not being 6 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:24.199 micromanaged. So you don't like being micromanaged? Not my preference, not perce 7 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:27.679 Have you been micromanaged? Yes? I do feel like there were times in 8 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.920 my career where I felt I was being micro managed. Have you ever deserved 9 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.920 it? Like in the moment of your thought, I'm being micromanaged, but 10 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:37.399 I deserve this, Well, I wouldn't say necessarily deserve I think in sentences, 11 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:41.640 is I needed it? I needed a leader to like be very clear 12 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.200 directive, like make sure that what I'm doing, like we say, like 13 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.119 crossing every tea dot and every eye, like really being on top of making 14 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:53.240 sure that the process that I was doing was very very correct. But did 15 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.880 you did you believe that in the moment it was happening or is it something 16 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:59.359 you just look back on and think, yeah, that was the right thing 17 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:02.320 to do. I think it depended upon the leader. I think for some 18 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:04.560 leaders it felt like kind of over the shoulder, like as if you were 19 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.959 checking my work you didn't trust me to get it done. With other leaders, 20 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.079 it felt like, look, I'm I'm making sure that you're getting this 21 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:17.239 right because this is imperative to either the company or that you really know you 22 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.519 need to know how to do this so that you don't fall into traps and 23 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.439 maybe make a mistake when you shouldn't make a mistake. What do you think 24 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.840 the difference was between those two examples of leaders, Like what caused you to 25 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:34.400 take one instance one way and one instance another way? I think the approach, 26 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:38.280 and then I think like the explanation of why they were doing it. 27 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:41.799 Like one leader was very much like, hey, I need you to learn 28 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:42.840 how to do this, so like, you know, here's the thing, 29 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.799 like show me what you're doing, and then it's kind of like okay, 30 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.599 like I feel like I get this right. Another leader is like, hey, 31 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.760 let me tell you why this is really really important and why we have 32 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.920 to make sure this has done this way exactly every single time, and now 33 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:57.599 I want you to go ahead and show me how you would do that, 34 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.680 and then let's refine that is kind of like the approach and then the explanation. 35 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:06.400 So I brought up Wikipedia here, and I'm just looking at what the 36 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:09.759 definition of micromanagement is. And the thing I want to bring up is that 37 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:15.960 there's a there's always a negative connotation to the word micromanagement because it shows a 38 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:19.159 lack of freedom and trust in the workplace. And that's that's directly from from 39 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:24.439 Wikipedia there. If you have to adhere to a certain process, then that's 40 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:28.919 a lack of freedom, and if a person's watching over your shoulder, that 41 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.439 can imply a lack of trust. In mind, when I think of instances 42 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:37.800 in my career where I have felt like I've been micromanaged, there's another element 43 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.879 of it too, which is I feel singled out in that. And I'll 44 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:44.599 give you a perfect example. You know, you know that you'll you see 45 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:46.599 in movies when someone has to open a bank vault and they can't do it 46 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.159 by themselves. You have to have like three people with three different keys to 47 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:52.960 open it at the same time. No one ever thinks, oh that the 48 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:54.599 bank doesn't trust me. It's like they think, well, the bank trust 49 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:57.879 no one. They want to have a process in place so they can say, 50 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.840 hey, it's impossible to get in here without three people all at the 51 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:06.120 same time and three different co keys or whatever it is, and that gives 52 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:10.879 a credibility to the process. Nobody feels like they're being micromanagement or a lack 53 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.360 of there's a lack of trust. When when I feel like I'm being micromanaged 54 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.840 it and it brings a lack of trust. It's when I can look at 55 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.879 my coworkers and they're not being micromanaged, So what makes them trusted but me 56 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.879 not trusted? And it's kind of like everybody has a key to the safe, 57 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.280 but the only time that a security guard goes in is when you're the 58 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:35.960 one over exactly, yeah, exactly. So yeah, this is this is 59 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.800 interesting because, um, there are times, basically what you're saying is, 60 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:44.719 there are times when micromanagement seems to be needed. Now absolutely, I think 61 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:50.199 immediately of um, the kind of the situational leadership concept and like the for 62 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.719 those that are familiar with it, like the first step in there is like 63 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.039 as a leader, like meeting people where they're at and what they need. 64 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:00.759 But the first step in that is being very as directive, like I need 65 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:02.639 to tell you what to do, how to do it, and where it 66 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.039 needs to be done and when it needs to be completed. So like you're 67 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:10.360 very much like being clear about all of these things, and it can feel 68 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:15.800 like like like I'm micromanaging, but I think that it's needed a lot of 69 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.439 times in those spaces where like in my own example, where I was learning 70 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:24.720 something new and I needed to understand the weight of how important this was and 71 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.399 why it needed to be so clear and why I had to do it a 72 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.199 very very specific way. I needed that initially to make sure that I was 73 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:33.639 doing it the right way, and then I wasn't going to cause some type 74 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:38.839 of an issue when it becomes I think when it turns into a negative connotation 75 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.839 is when I've done it now thirty times the right way every time, and 76 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.040 then you show up on time number thirty one and you're just like, we'll 77 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.360 show me what you're doing here. Now it feels like like do you not 78 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:53.920 trust me? Like have you not seen that I've done this consistently over time? 79 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.360 Like if we haven't been able to move on into a place where like 80 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.160 I need more of like a supportive behavior or I need some you know, 81 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.560 just an element of empowerment to know that it's being taken care of. That's 82 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:09.279 when I think it turns into this feeling of a negative micromanaging. Yeah, 83 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:11.800 you know, you're you're not wrong about that. I also think there's an 84 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:16.560 element of not if you're a leader, and people believe if you've been called 85 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:21.560 a micromanager as a leader, chances are you're you're just not taking a step 86 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:28.600 back for a moment to see what's happening before interjecting. Meaning a lot of 87 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.480 times when I have felt like I was being micromanaged, it's when I have 88 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:38.800 received a kind of direction on doing something that I was already doing or that 89 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.639 or that I was in the process of beginning or starting whatever it was, 90 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.000 and the person didn't just take a few seconds to look and see that that's 91 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.319 what was happening already. They just said it, almost like it was their 92 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:55.120 job to say something, regardless of the situation. And I think that can 93 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.920 lead to a feeling of micromanaging because it's like, you know, if you 94 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.319 if you felt like you had to tell me this, that means you feel 95 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.120 like I wouldn't have done it on my own anyway, which if I wasn't 96 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:06.519 doing it on my own and I have a history of not doing on my 97 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:11.199 own, maybe I need that right. But if I'm actually doing it in 98 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:15.519 the moment, and I don't have a history of not doing it when I'm 99 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:17.360 supposed to be doing it, then why would you need to say it to 100 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:21.959 begin with? If you're saying it because you need to kind of feel like 101 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.639 you are contributing to this process as the leader, and your way of contributing 102 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.639 is to make sure that people are doing what they're supposed to be doing. 103 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:31.920 Sometimes people are already doing what they're supposed to be doing and you don't need 104 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.560 to say anything, and you contribute by just taking a step back and watching. 105 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.720 So what I want to ask you, Lorenzo, is have you ever 106 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:43.639 been in a situation as a leader where someone needed to be micromanaged for whatever 107 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.759 reason it was, they didn't believe they needed to be micromanaged, and you 108 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.279 kind of had to get them on board with that process because it was for 109 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.519 the betterment of them and their growth and their development and the organization as a 110 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.240 whole. So I want to ask you that At first, I want to 111 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.360 give it a word from one of our sponsors. All right, Lorenzo, 112 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.439 No one wants to be micro managed, but sometimes it's needed. Have you 113 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:05.800 ever had a time when you had to micromanage somebody and make them aware that 114 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:10.079 this was not a bad thing, that they kind of this was part of 115 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:13.120 the job because of the situation kind of called for it. I tend my 116 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.560 brain immediately goes to the spaces around things like conversations around like performance management, 117 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:21.199 where like you have a leader responsible for people or a team and they have 118 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.639 to have a conversation about somebody who maybe not meeting whatever the expectations are sure, 119 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:30.879 and what ends up happening sometimes is you know, again, if it's 120 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:34.480 a new leader, my hope is that we've built a system that allows them 121 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:39.160 to have a mentor or somebody to work with them to make sure that they 122 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.680 are comfortable as much as possible in these spaces, because they're gonna have to 123 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.720 learn through experience. Where I find it is that if there's a space where 124 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.639 maybe a leader's responsible for it, it's not going the way that it should 125 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:55.959 be going. Maybe there's a lack of clarity, maybe there's maybe there's some 126 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:00.800 feelings because you know, it wasn't approached the right way, where then I 127 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.720 have to sit down with a leader and say, okay, like we're going 128 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.639 to work through how do you have this conversation with someone and how do you 129 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.160 Again, the intent is that somebody can walk away with clarity, they can 130 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.319 walk away with an understanding of the work they need to do. They can 131 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.480 feel you know, inspired or empowered to make sure that they know that they 132 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:20.480 can go in and improve whatever they want to improve upon. And so there's 133 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.000 a couple of things going to happen here. I'm going to ask you to 134 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.399 treat me like the employee and walk me through how you would have that conversation. 135 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.879 But then I also I'm gonna sit in. I'm gonna sit in and 136 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.480 hear the dialogue. But I'm not gonna just show up and say, okay, 137 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.000 I want to sit in the next time you talk to this employee, 138 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.600 and then just do what you're gonna do, because I feel that it's not 139 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:48.000 right of us to continue maybe a bad behavior or a lack of expectation on 140 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.320 how that conversation should be. So we're going to practice here and I'm gonna 141 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.519 hear, and then we're gonna go back and forth and I'm gonna provide you 142 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.440 with some notes if we're gonna practice again, and then I'm gonna sit in 143 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.399 so again. Like that's where you can feel like, Okay, is there 144 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:05.039 a lack of freedom to go have the conversation. Is there a lack of 145 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:07.799 trust because I don't like want you need to go talk to this employee by 146 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.120 yourself without me being there. That's kind of, by definition a little bit 147 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:13.559 of what micromanaging is. But I think again, in my experience, when 148 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.000 you explain it, when you talk about it, when you're aware of it 149 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:22.039 and you and you're sharing why it's needed in this moment, that's where I 150 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:28.559 tend to find myself kind of doing more micromanaging is in those spaces where leaders 151 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.159 are either struggling with how to have these conversations or and this is what leaders 152 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.720 maybe have never had these experiences or conversations, where then I have to step 153 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.799 into that, you know that situation leaders in place of being very directive clear, 154 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.840 having them practice, having them go over and over and over again, 155 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.240 right, because at the end of the day, you have a responsibility to 156 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.840 that employee who is being performance managed to get them the performance management that will 157 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.799 a help them get better or be make sure that all of your ducks are 158 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:00.759 in a row if it if it's time to move to the next step, 159 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.039 and you can't move to the next step unless all of the previous steps were 160 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:09.679 done correctly. So you know that that obligation sometimes superseds an ability to just 161 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:13.240 say, yeah, guy, trust you to go get done. Let chips 162 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.679 follow where they may. So, yeah, it really has to do with 163 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:20.360 what does the potential fall out of a person doing something incorrectly, And that 164 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.159 has to be way, really really in every decision. But but you're right, 165 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.120 if you talk about it with the employee in advance, you know they'll 166 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.320 if they want to interpret it as a lack of trust and freedom, that's 167 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.919 fine. They're going to anyway. So if you say flat out there is 168 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.399 a one percent lack of freedom in this, not for you, but for 169 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:41.120 us as an organization. This is the process and these are this is why 170 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.480 the process is in place. There is no lack There is no freedom in 171 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.840 this process. And that goes for me too. If I have to performance 172 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.639 manage to someone, I don't have freedom to do it the way that I 173 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:52.919 want to do it. It has to be done in a certain way. 174 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:56.720 To make sure that we're we're adhering by the rules of the organization and so 175 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:01.879 that when when a person is managed on their perform that they don't feel singled 176 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:03.960 out, that it's done in a way that is uniform to all employees. 177 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:07.200 And in order to do that, there has to be a process, So 178 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:09.720 you have to watch the process. So no, you're you're spot on with 179 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:15.480 that. I think this it's the idea of explaining it in advance and making 180 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.360 sure that person understands even if it's validating what they already think. You know, 181 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.240 sometimes it's the you know, if they think it's lack of trust and 182 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.759 lack of freedom, but that you're trying to hide it and going no, 183 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.399 no, no, no, it's I, Oh, I trust you implicitly, 184 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.000 you of all the freedom in the world, but I'm gonna watch you 185 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.000 anyway. That's when they go really like that. That's when it doesn't work 186 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.159 out well. But if you say, yeah, it's a lack of trust 187 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.639 and a lack of freedom, that's why I'm watching it because I don't trust 188 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.519 that the process is being done right yet and you have no freedom to do 189 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.480 this, not you, but all of us. And here's why it goes 190 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:45.840 over a lot more smoothly. No one feels single out absolutely and with that 191 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.639 it brings us to the end of this episode. This is hacking your leadership. 192 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.279 I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and have a great day.