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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
UFO Radio. This is your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I have with
me nobody. Jason is out of town

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today, so I'm flying solo.
So today we have an interesting show.

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We've got a great guest. His
name is Jordan Hopeer. He is actually

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a research specialist in anthropology for Muffon. He works in Darwinian evolution as doing

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all kinds of different stuff. That's
what his degrees and he's taught in that

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area. And he's written a book
called Evolutionary Ufology, and he has some

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very original and interesting ideas about extraterrestrials, and we'll be talking to him about

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that. He has also put some
of these ideas together in a fiction book

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called Saucerville that has just come out
recently. It's kind of a coming of

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age book with some kids, and
he has lots of his interesting ideas incorporated

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in this book. So we'll talk
about that. We'll talk to him about

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his evolutionary ufology ideas and it will
be a lot of fun. And I

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got to say there's some definitely very
unique and novel concepts that he has written

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about. So we'll talk to him
in just a minute. Before that,

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we'll talk just a little bit about
some of the news. Remember, you

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could get all the news at Openminds
dot tv. You can also go to

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spacing Out on our YouTube channel to
see more in the news. But we

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had a lot of interesting news this
week. I think one story that we

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wrote about I got it from the
Daily Mail actually, and they got it

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from Wales Online kind of an ap
of new service Wales New Service, and

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I haven't seen it written about very
much, which is kind of interesting.

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And that is this British scientist,
actually a team of scientists who believe they

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have found extraterrestrial life. So essentially, this guy's name is Chandra with Raham

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singing. I know I'm saying his
name wrong, but at least I'm making

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an attempt. And he is a
gentleman who made some news earlier this year

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when he says that some of these
meteorites that have been found do show kind

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of fossils of extraterrestrial life. This
is something that's been debated for a long

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time and he feels that that there
really is some evidence for this. So

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he also is into the pant spermia
idea, this idea that life kind of

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hitches a ride on asteroids and goes
around the world or around the universe,

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and when it falls onto a planet, that's how we get these biological bacteria

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and things on Earth that grew into
more sophisticated life. In order to test

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his theory recently, a group of
scientists led by him out of the University

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of Buckingham took a balloon and they
put some slides that were sealed in there

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and they launched it to the stratosphere. They exposed these slides to the stratosphere,

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examined these slides when they came back
to the Earth, and they found

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little microbes. They found these little
complex organisms that haven't been seen before.

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That are they even have pictures here
will? They show that it has kind

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of a mouth area and an anus, so you might be interested in looking

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at those, But these are just
tiny little things. And then they also

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found algae. What's significant about that
is that supposedly life from Earth, these

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microscopic organisms should not be in the
stratosphere. There's no way for them to

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kind of be pushed out into the
stratosphere. It's the theory. So if

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we can't have these things from Earth
in the stratosphere, he's saying that then

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they're most likely extraterrestrial from somewhere else. Should mention also that they did this

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during the Persades meteor shower, So
this is where the Persades where that kind

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of this cloud of debris is coming
near the planet. So very interesting stuff

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and it hasn't gotten much news.
I mean, they're scientific team is stating

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we found extraterrestrial life. So I
think that's really interesting. Hopefully maybe you'll

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hear more about it soon. Otherwise, kind of lots of UFO siting news.

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We talked about the Vancouver sidings at
a baseball stadium. Those turned out

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to be hoaxes and we got a
lot of information about that from the advertising

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agency who put on this hoak.
So essentially, there's this space center in

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Vancouver. The HR McMillan Space Centers
are also an observatory kind of a planetarium

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type of place. Well, they
revamped their UFO looking building and in order

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to promote it, they decided,
well, let's kind of make this drone

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or this quad coppter that looks like
our building like a UFO and fly it

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around and see if people think it's
UFO. Sure enough, some people recorded

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it at the baseball game posted it
saying, hey, what's this looks like

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a UFO, and that made a
bunch of news, which was all part

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of their plan. Well, we
posted that and posted you know that,

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I'm sure some people will be a
disappointed with their idea of kind of hoaxing

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in order to promote their center.
So the ad agency said, you know,

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we weren't being malicious, and they
sent us a lot of pictures and

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links to videos and stuff so we
could post that in our story so you

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can see that. There. Otherwise, a few other interesting UFO stories you'll

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have to check out one. I
think it's really interesting. A news agency

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out of Lincoln, Nebraska. There's
silver surfer UFO, which type of thing

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if you remember that in California a
couple of years ago, but this time

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in Virginia. And then an interesting
kind of dish shape photo that many are

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saying is LNS flair in Minnesota,
and that one's got a lot of debate

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going. So yeah, a lot
of cool sightings from this week, so

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check out Openminds dot tv for all
of those sightings. But it is now

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time, my friends, to get
to our main interview of the show.

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So let's get Jordan Hofer on the
line. Okay, I am excited to

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have Jordan Hofer on the line.
He is an author and also has worked

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with Moufon as a research specialist in
anthropology. So we'll talk about your new

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book and upcoming book I saw here
in your experiences with Moufon. How are

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you. I'm fine. Thank you
very much for having me. Yeah,

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thanks for coming on to the show. So one of the things that you've

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got out now that you're promoting is
a fiction book called Saucerville. Correct,

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that's right. Great, And so
this book is kind of it it looks

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like, does it have elements of
comedy and horror and the kind of a

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mixing of kind of maybe some of
the ideas or concepts you feel you've discovered

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from researching UFOs. Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's a it's a young

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adult novel. And the idea from
the beginning was it was to make the

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book fun, funny, fast,
and scary as hell. That was that

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was the basic recipe for it.
And so I just read along those lines,

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and yeah, it is based on
a lot of it is based on

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actual cases for euthology. I did
that for two reasons. I wanted to

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make it as believable as possible,
to draw on, you know, all

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of the the mythology and so forth
that is within the UFO methods. And

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I also wanted to put in their
actual cases so that after kids had read

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the book, they could you go
back to it and see which cases I

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talked about and actually, you know, look them up on the internet or

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find a book and read about them. Ah. Interesting. So it takes

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place in Mcminville, Oregon, So
i'd imagine the McMinnville case is one that

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you refer to. Yeah. Absolutely, As a matter of fact, the

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book starts out with that. In
the prologue. It starts out with the

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Trents seeing the UFL and taking their
two famous photos of it, and then

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I weave in the characters from there, and then it moves on m So

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are you from the area. Yeah, I'm in Salem. It's about twenty

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twenty five miles away from mcmonville.
Uh huh. And it sounds like from

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reading about the book, it that
kind of like Roswell, people talk about

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UFOs and they kind of have this
it's a topic in the town which kind

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of annoys the main character. Right. Yeah, the main character absolutely hates

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UFOSS. He's sick of hearing about
them, because that's what people talk about

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all the time. There's actually every
year in Mcminville there's a festival UFO Festival,

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and it's the second largest, right
after Boswell. And I do have

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a chapter that takes place at that
festival. I've been there a couple of

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times and it was just it's just
absolutely rich. It was just perfect for

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writing from right. So, and
a lot of people have been going to

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this McMinnville festival, right, they
get pretty big. Yeah, it's a

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pretty big deal where actually, m
yeah, it looks fun. Yeah.

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Yeah, We've got the parade on
Saturday and the you know, the whole

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family gets into that and that's quite
a spectacle. Uh. But on Friday

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night, the night before, we've
had some pretty good speakers come. Last

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this last year we had Nick Pope
mm hmm. So you know, it's

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it is a lot of fun,
but it's also you know, kind of

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fun for us. The followgists too, Right, So getting into kind of

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your ideas and some of the concepts
which look really interesting, seemed like they

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kind of of stem back from how
you originally got involved with this whole field

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and if I understand correctly, you
were skeptical yourself, but you had friends

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who had experiences, and so you
found yourself struggling with whether to believe them

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or not. Is that correct?
Yeah, that is correct. And it

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basically started in two thousand and eight, the spring of two thousand and eight,

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and my best friend of thirty four
years saw a huge black rectangle fly

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low over his house and it emitted
a deep thrumming sound that actually rattled his

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windows. Wow. Yeah. And
I was still teaching in academia at the

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time at a state university here in
Oregon. And when you're in academia,

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you just don't even think about things
like you have those even when they happened

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to your best friend. It's just
something you don't even deal with. You

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just shove it back. And I
didn't. This was the horrible part I

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realized after I got out of academia, after the recession hit and I lost

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my job, I realized that I
hadn't even believed my best friend h And

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that really shocked me. I realized
that, you know, it had been

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a form of betrayal actually, because
if I had seen such a thing,

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I would I'm sure it's all want
him to believe me. Yeah, it

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reminds me of you know, this
guy I know who did lectures, had

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sightings and he used the little red
truck theory, which was something he talked

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about. If your friend came to
you and said, you know, I

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saw a little red truck get in
an accident at the stoplight, you wouldn't

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think twice. You would believe that
that happened. But when they tell you

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an extraordinary story, you know,
you have a hard time believing him,

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even though you know they're your friend
and someone who's trustworthy. Yeah. Absolutely,

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and his his wife and son had
seen it too, So I was

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really just kind of, you know, not believe in his our family,

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which is quite an extraordinary position for
a friend to take. You know,

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having that perspective, as being someone
who was skeptical of your friend's story while

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you're in academia, and then having
a different perspective once you got out of

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it. What was the difference?
Why did you Why do you feel you

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had that different perspective while you were
working for the school as opposed to them

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not. Oh that's yeah, that's
that's quite simple to answer. Actually,

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in academia, anything that's considered paranormal
or of high strangeness as we have and

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say, it's just it's a career
killer. And one of my one of

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my heroes when I was teaching at
university's name was Professor Gilver Kurranz, and

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he taught at Washington State University for
several years, and he was a physical

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anthropologist, and he had just a
hobby of studying bigfoot. And he spent

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maybe five percent of his time applying
the tours of physical anthropology to studying Bigfoot.

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But it didn't matter if it was
just a hobby. It destroyed his

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career. He was unable to advance
as a professor. A lot of people

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didn't take him seriously. And this
even though he had written some very excellent

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books and articles and so forth on
Homo erectus and human evolution in general.

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Right, But so he served as
an example why to stay away from it.

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Absolutely, it doesn't even come into
your mind to entertain the saying.

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I knew of another professor to local
community college who was trying to get into

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one of the universities I was teaching
at, and they would not let him

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in because they knew that he had
theories about Atlantis. Huh see, he

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was kept out of the state university
system simply because he had that belief.

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Wow. So when that moment came
and you kind of had that realization and

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you're like, wow, you know, I've been disloyal to my friend and

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his family and that's not cool.
That means that that's kind of a big

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deal, because that means you have
to sit down and entertain the possibility,

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which is kind of a you know, a world change, a worldview changing

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type of thing, that maybe he
really saw what he saw. Oh yeah,

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yeah, he saw some kind of
machine. He was not hallucinating.

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It was not a far away light. It was not Venus. He told

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me himself that as he was watching
this Black Triangle, he fixed Venus in

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his vision. He saw Venus and
he's like, okay, well there's Venus.

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So I know it's not Venus.
But it definitely was an epiphany,

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and you know, I felt pretty
horrible about myself at first, but then

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I just got to work and you
know, he's trying to figure out what

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the heck this USO phenomena are all
about, and you know, I'm never

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doing it together. Mm. So
that's when you really got then just kind

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of thrust into the field. And
is it that when you started to work

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with Moufan. Yeah, that's that's
when I joined NUFAUN as a research specialist

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and I started to just an extensive
literature review so that I had a pretty

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good idea of you know, the
history of ethology. So it looked as

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though, because you work in you're
an evolutionist, so you work with classical

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darwin theories and things like that,
that you have developed this concept of evolutionary

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euthology. So you it sounds like
you've applied your field to this, to

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the UFO field, and what have
you found or where has that led you?

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Well, yeah, that's kind of
interesting there what what I realized right

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off? I said, okay,
well I've had this epiphany. You know,

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UFOs do exist. I don't know
what they are, but they do

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exist. I've had two epiphanies that
strong in my life, and then we're

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the UFOs. The other was through
the study of evolution and then seeing,

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uh, you know, through deep
time the changes that have occurred over the

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last three and a half billion years
on this planet. So it almost since

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those were the two largest epiphanies I've
ever had. It kind of demanded a

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synthesis, bringing them together and seeing
what the interplay of the two studies could

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teach me. And and so how
did you begin to apply that and what

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were some of the maybe theories that
you came up with. Okay, well,

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the first thing I really started thinking
about was if these you know,

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bafore I was thinking of these these
UFOs are craft, and if the craft,

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they're probably being pilated by somebody.
And I basically go with the extraterrestrial

208
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hypothesis. It just seems to me
to be the simplest explanation. And if

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they're extraterrestrial, they're probably gray.
And so then I try to figure out,

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okay, what kind of a critter
is a gray because you know,

211
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you hear these reports about them and
they're you know, sometimes quite varied.

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That I was really interested in what
what kind of an animal is this thing?

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And how what what kind of evolutionary
forces would it take to evolve this

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kind of a creature. So that
that was the first the first way in

215
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which I started to synthesize the idea. I know I've seen I think it

216
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was in the seventies you're probably familiar
with it, where there was a somebody

217
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who worked along those lines who came
up with what humans would look like in

218
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the future. Well, actually,
I think there's a few people who have

219
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done that as we evolve, and
they both kind of came up with these

220
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ideas of these kind of creatures that
were shorter, with bigger heads and bigger

221
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eyes, and the heads and eyes
kind of being disproportionate to the body,

222
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as our bodies would be used less
as they are now. I'm a perfect

223
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example sitting here in my cubicle,
I know all day every day. Is

224
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that kind of where you were headed? Not really, that's I mean that

225
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that is interesting, That is interesting, But was headed? Was more what

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happened to the grays in the past. And one of my one of my

227
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clues that I got early on,
there had been a recent discovery of in

228
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Antarctica of this really strange looking albino
antarctic octopus, and it was it was

229
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very, very very pale, It
had huge dark eyes, and it looked

230
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a lot like a gray And so
I just started asking myself, well,

231
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okay, you know, we just
kind of assume that these critters are bipedal

232
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and so forth, but what if
they're not? What if that what if

233
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that vertical position of their body is
more for our benefit than for theirs.

234
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What if they were had a horizontal
orientation and instead of being mammalian, what

235
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if there were more like a like
a celphal pod, like like an octopus

236
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or something. And so I kind
of put it from there and and then

237
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and then just and then just played
with it. You know it literally,

238
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this was a thought experiment. Uh, it's it's it's speculation. But a

239
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lot of it too, is based
on reports that abductees have made about the

240
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odors of these creatures and what they
look like and so forth and so on.

241
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Mm hmm. So it seems like
you do, uh feel strongly at

242
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least you uh subscribe to the idea
that people have been abducted in seeing these

243
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gray type of aliens. Yeah,
I I I do. I do accept

244
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that fact. I do. What
for you has been the evidence that has

245
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been compelling enough to to have you
go there, from you know, your

246
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friend seeing a Solly Craft to going
to wow, you know, this abduction

247
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phenomenon is probably real too. Yeah. For one thing, a lot of

248
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reading work of David Jacobs, John
Mack, of course, Bud Hopkins,

249
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but also Karina Sables, who lives
in Victoria, British Columbia, and heard

250
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the collectors her account her accounts of
being abducted were so believable in a in

251
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a in a personable sense. They
had they had the ring of truth kind

252
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of from one person to another like
she was. She was just telling the

253
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story of what happened to her,
and I found it absolutely believable. It

254
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had the ring of truth to it, so that that was one. Also

255
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the works of Carla Turner, those
really influenced me and changed my thinking on

256
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it. Some of the work of
Butch with Kowski studying human mutilations, and

257
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also a story that John Mack told
about the Zimbabwe school children case where something

258
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like sixty five kids in Zimbabwe at
this kind of colonial school they were out

259
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.880
on recess and they all said,
this spaceship land and these graves come out

260
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and communicate with them through telepathically through
the eyes. And that one for me

261
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was that that that was the case. Is that it for me? And

262
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that it's seen the children being interviewed
on YouTube, and I just thought that

263
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was utterly credible. Yeah, incredible
case and hopefully I mean there's a gentleman

264
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working on a documentary hopefully that'll come
out soon. And I've seen he spoke

265
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at the UFO Congress a couple of
years ago where he interviewed some of those

266
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kids who are in like their twenties
now, And Yeah, very interesting because

267
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they still you know, hold to
their stories that they had, you know,

268
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witness this incredible and had this incredible
experience. So another from looking at

269
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some of your evolutionary ufology, the
book that you have coming out, it

270
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looks like you kind of feel and
maybe in the book it's like you said,

271
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it's terrifying and horrifying as you could
get it. Do you feel that

272
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way that you know these abduction experiences
this is this is horrifying and and possibly

273
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malicious experience. Well, some people, of course don't think so. Some

274
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people feel that they are gaining something
spiritually from these abductions and so forth.

275
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But it seems to me that the
the majority of the cases, I would

276
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say, yes, these are these
are malicious trespasses, and the Grays are

277
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not our benevolent space brothers. They
are up to their own nasty and scrutable

278
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of whatever they're doing. Yeah,
one of the ways, one of the

279
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big indicators I could tell that you
didn't think too positively about, you know,

280
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the Grace and their Agendas? Was
another book that you have coming up

281
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that trigger to title Little Gray Bastards. Yeah, that was a big kind

282
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of Oh okay, he doesn't like
you guys very much. Yeah, hope

283
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hopefully that will be coming out.
Schiffer hasn't told us yet whether or not

284
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we've got the green light, but
we we are planning that. And yes,

285
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that that pretty much does does some
power field when it comes to your

286
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experiences as someone working with evolution,
and I would imagine, at least in

287
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:47.359
human evolution, well probably in all
evolution, motivation of a species has a

288
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big part to do with that.
Do you then, can you apply that

289
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to the Grays? Have you been
able to figure out what you think might

290
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be the motivations and help help give
you an idea of what they might be

291
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:07.640
up to and why. Yeah,
I have come up with with some ideas

292
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that I explore in evolutionary ethology.
I know that David Jacobs does not agree

293
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:18.319
with me on a lot of these
points. He was he was still kind

294
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:26.680
enough to write praise for the book. However, I think that they are

295
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:37.640
basically psychotic creatures that they're not here
to help us. Uh. There often

296
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:45.000
will show to a to an abductee
scenes of the earth dine of being destroyed.

297
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:53.960
And if you know that that's nothing
new. We we know about environmental

298
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:00.119
degradation. So they're not helping us
there at all. We've got plenty of

299
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:07.640
the excellent scientists who are telling us
these sounds, but they don't seem to

300
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:14.960
be helping with any kind of environmental
programs, not even with recycling. So

301
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.799
right, it seems to me that
that that they have great potential to help,

302
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:33.599
but they're not. They're they're they're
busy collecting a sex cells and they're

303
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:41.880
busy hybridizing. And I think I
think one of one of their one of

304
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:48.839
one of their main focuses is simply
rape. As as a psychotic would enjoy

305
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:55.720
rape, I think that the grades
do as well. And I know it

306
00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:00.720
sounds kind of crazy to say that
these critters have come thirty nine years to

307
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:07.960
rate us, but they're nuts,
they're crazy, and they're mean. The

308
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.079
manner in which they go about this, however, is kind of seems sort

309
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:19.440
of clinical. You know, they
use equipment to extract do you know,

310
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:29.759
the ova or the sperm and so
that would be different than kind of just

311
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:36.039
for the enjoyment. Right. Well, again, I'm not entirely sure because

312
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:41.680
how much material do they actually need? Why do they need to keep doing

313
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:48.319
this again and again and again repeatedly. Yeah, I just don't get that.

314
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.160
I mean, I hear what you're
saying about, you know, how

315
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.680
they do it clinically, But I
think even then you know they're written off

316
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:00.680
on it. Well, and you
have a good point and that you know,

317
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:02.400
how much would they need? Why
would they keep needing to do this

318
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:10.039
unless I mean, what are your
ideas about the hybridization as to why that

319
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.759
would be happening? Okay, Yeah, there's another area where I differ from

320
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:23.839
a lot of folks. I think
it's entirely possible. I mean, if

321
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:30.119
the grays are out there, it
seems to me it's entirely possible there's a

322
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:37.000
larger galactic ecology that we're not even
aware of, and that the graves are

323
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:45.119
just one of that ecology's predators,
and that they probably are at competition with

324
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:55.920
other species. Butch Rakowski made some
calculations on you know, just how many

325
00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.920
people have been abducted and furthermore,
how many people have been abducted and never

326
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:08.880
returned. And I mean it was
in the hundreds of thousands, since let's

327
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:16.839
just say nineteen sixty one, when
when Bonnie and Betty Hill abduction occurred.

328
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:29.799
Actually those nineteen sixty one, wasn't
it? Um Wait, checks, I'm

329
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:40.680
terrible with numbers. Sixty one,
okay, sixty one, that's right.

330
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:45.599
Okay. So anyway, it turns
out that there have been just like hundreds

331
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.759
of thousands, if not millions,
of abductions and some people have never been

332
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:55.160
returned. And this sounds more like
a conscription program to me. So I'm

333
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:01.119
guessing that they're taking a lot of
people and conscripting them into some kind of

334
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:10.400
army in which they they they're perhaps
hybridizing folks or you know, giving them

335
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:17.159
send abilities that the grades have,
kind of like a weapons upgrade. I

336
00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:22.239
think one of the things that we
have that they don't that could very well

337
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:29.159
be useful in a war is that
we are very emotional. We have strong,

338
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:38.039
savage passions. We can murder.
They the grades, the grades might

339
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:46.480
be psychotic, but they're not as
emotional about it, and we are.

340
00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:54.119
And we're I think we're better at
at at war than they are. So

341
00:34:54.440 --> 00:35:01.000
and I guess one, when you
say tychotic, that kind of I also

342
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:07.119
kind of illicit to kind of an
irrationality, yes to what's going on?

343
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:19.599
Yeah. In Ivan T. Sanderson's
booken Visible Residence, he thought that the

344
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:28.199
aliens were and these are his words, stupid and insane. And I've kind

345
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.760
of gone with that. That once
again has a ring of truth to me.

346
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.559
And so I've kind of followed with
that. And it isn't It is

347
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:42.519
actually possible to be stupid and insane
and still technologically superior. And look at

348
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.599
us with our nuclear weapons and so
forth. That's stupid and insane, but

349
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:55.519
it's very technological. Have there been
examples in evolution of kind of of what

350
00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:05.880
you're describing, Oh, that's interesting. You mean of a species being stupid

351
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:12.480
ina and and and and also having
technology or not maybe the technology part,

352
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:23.440
but maybe thriving even though they're stupid
insane. Well, I think definitely with

353
00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:30.840
the stupid part you could you could
talk about, for example, the hymenopterans

354
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:44.719
like termites, lost and so forth. Is that form extremely use social and

355
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:52.960
cooperative societies, yet each member is
is just basically a robot. I think

356
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:00.599
it's entirely possible that the grades do
have some form of high hierarchy similar to

357
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:07.840
that, and that that would definitely
explain their kind of stupid their stupidness.

358
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:15.519
But oh gosh, those species on
Earth, it's both stupid and insane.

359
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:22.360
I don't know. Maybe maybe the
chimpanzees. Uh they also I have known,

360
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:31.280
been known to go to war and
be quite violent, killing their their

361
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:37.440
fellow species that were just you know, an outsider group. So you know,

362
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:45.119
maybe maybe maybe the the chimpanzees.
Certainly they've gone insane in captivity.

363
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.800
But uh no, that's a really
good question. I can't think of a

364
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:53.760
species that would fit both those criteria
except for the human rights. Mm hm.

365
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:58.000
Well, and then on the second
part of the question, you still

366
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:04.760
believe though that sort of they could
still develop technology. Yeah, I do.

367
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:14.039
I do, because we do have
a great example in US and just

368
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:21.159
humans themselves. Yeah, the human
right is as large as being stupid and

369
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:28.840
insane. So maybe that's the nature
of intelligence. It could be at least

370
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:32.360
to a certain level of development.
And then if you can make it past

371
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:39.760
that level of deveolovement, well then
then you're a lucky species. So that's

372
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:49.559
kind of interesting because that then he's
certainly a different theory, and it's interesting

373
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.599
that it stems back from ivin T. Sanderson. But then it differs from

374
00:38:53.960 --> 00:39:01.480
for example, Jacobs in that there
is no kind of higher plan like a

375
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:12.039
grand plan here. It's more kind
of maliciousness for maliciousness sake, Yeah,

376
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:17.800
exactly, aside from possibly taking you
know, a few hundred thousand of us

377
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:22.639
and and turning us into some kind
of weapon that they could use for a

378
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:31.599
war in the larger galactic ecology,
and that larger galactic ecology then and could

379
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:38.360
be similar to the animal kingdom we
have here where you have your predators and

380
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:45.960
you have just these these battles and
people fighting for survival. Absolutely absolutely,

381
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:55.519
it's it's it's Darwinism rip really large, like on the galactic level or even

382
00:39:55.599 --> 00:40:05.679
higher. Yeah, I mean darwin
natural collection is natural law, and therefore,

383
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.000
just like gravity, we would expect
it to work the same everywhere in

384
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:15.760
the universe. So then do you
not see humans as being able to overcome

385
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:25.760
these natural laws or this Darwinistic idea? So for instance, if we look

386
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:32.400
at the United States, you know, it's moved from this empirical type of

387
00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:37.760
and maybe this is something you don't
think it's true where you know, we're

388
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:45.280
not going around conquering countries anymore.
Instead we're helping countries, which is kind

389
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:52.480
of a shift from the last even
in the last few decades, maybe because

390
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.679
the Cold War, you know,
it was kind of a similar thing where

391
00:40:55.480 --> 00:41:00.079
there were countries kind of being influenced. Do you feel that perhaps we're not

392
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:07.880
moving away from that. I think
people would feel that humanity is moving away

393
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:12.679
from it, But do you feel
that not to be the case. Actually,

394
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:22.239
I'm quite optimistic about that. There
are more organizations now than have ever

395
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:29.480
existed in the history of the human
species set up to help other people everywhere

396
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:35.519
in the everywhere in the world,
and it seems that that's the way we're

397
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:46.559
headed. We may need to get
knocked on our butts by either something horrible

398
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:54.360
like a limited nuclear war, or
by global climate change and the acidification of

399
00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:00.199
the oceans and pollution and on and
on and on to really give us a

400
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:06.199
lesson of hey, that's enough.
We need to put that behind us and

401
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:10.360
move on to the next step,
which which I think would be something analogous

402
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:16.440
to like the Federation in Star Trek, something like that, something that would

403
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:24.960
be more than just cooperation it would. It would actually be a species wide

404
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:34.000
ethos that would that would move us
away from what you were talking about,

405
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:45.760
the nation conquering and move us more
towards the fulfillment of dreams. It sounds

406
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:50.519
like you would feel then that we
are closer to that ideal than the great.

407
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.199
Yeah, yes, I would,
actually I would. I would definitely

408
00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:04.679
say that. I I guess that
I uh, I guess I guess that

409
00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:10.559
I'm racist towards the grave. They
If someone asked me, are we better

410
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:14.960
than they are? I would answer
yes, We're not only different, we

411
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:20.800
are better than they are in everything
that is important to us as human beings.

412
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:23.440
We are better than the Grace.
But the one up they have is

413
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:30.679
technology. Yeah, exactly, They've
they've they've got us with that. Could

414
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:37.519
that be because they're older, Yeah, I think I think probably so,

415
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.880
They've they've probably got quite a bit
of time, uh, in which they've

416
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.360
been working on their technology. There's
probably quite a bit of a spread between

417
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:51.000
them and us. So, and
we'll get back to your nonfiction and second,

418
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:53.360
because I think we've probably covered kind
of a lot which I think is

419
00:43:53.400 --> 00:44:00.000
really interesting around your evolutionary upology.
But when it comes to little great Bastard.

420
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.000
Is that going to be a fiction
or is that a nonfiction? It's

421
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:13.079
going to be a non fiction that
it's going to be much more fanciful than

422
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:19.800
evolutionary ethology. My editor and I
kind of wanted to make it almost like

423
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:27.199
almost like a textbook, not not
really, because you know, it's even

424
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.440
though it's nonfiction, you know it's
going to be fun. Nobody wants to

425
00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:36.559
pick up the book on really anything
and how it not be fun in some

426
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:44.159
way. But but yeah, Little
Gray Bastards, if it gets greenlighted,

427
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:51.840
will be It's going to take some
other speculations that are that are much more

428
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:57.000
out there that that I wanted to
investigate and that my my co author,

429
00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:01.679
David Barker wants to investigate. Yeah. Interesting, Well, you know,

430
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:06.559
there are a lot of people too
who just in this field, a lot

431
00:45:06.599 --> 00:45:13.679
of the very serious researchers who just
can't get past that what they do is

432
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:22.840
not socially acceptable to our standards and
that it and thus it's wrong. And

433
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:27.440
I got to think even you know, I think maybe a little more positively

434
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.800
about what might be happening. It's
a good point that you know, if

435
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:37.480
you're going to ingratiate yourself if this
is happening, If you're going to ingratiate

436
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.800
yourself to another culture, you don't
do it by, you know, instead

437
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.400
of shaking their hand, bending them
over and probing them. They're not going

438
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:51.519
to appreciate that. You're not going
to get very far diplomatically by doing that.

439
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:58.880
So, yeah, it's interesting.
So getting back to your book,

440
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.280
then it sounds like it might be
kind of fun. I mean, Saucerville,

441
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:07.480
the fiction book that has just come
out, is that what Elliott,

442
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:16.119
the main character, begins to define
is that they're not only not nice,

443
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:22.400
they're kind of random in their actions. Yeah, he's thought so interested in

444
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:30.119
that. It's another character, a
supporting character, his friend Stella. She's

445
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:37.639
a genus genius level at thirteen,
and she kind of has this hope that

446
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:43.679
the aliens are going to save us
from ourselves. And when she's adopted and

447
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:49.280
these horrible things are done to her, of that beautiful dream gets kind of

448
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.960
torn apart, and so you get
to kind of feel along with her this

449
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:58.360
disappointment that oh gosh, they really
are not here to help. They just

450
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:02.280
they're just here to hurt. Mm
hm. So it is kind of this

451
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:08.199
guy and this is a trilogy.
Yes, yeah, Saster that was the

452
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:13.639
first book. The second book is
called Conifer, and I'm working on that

453
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:19.039
right now. I'm about fifty percent
done. M hm. So it sounds

454
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:25.400
kind of interesting. How is the
reception of the book gone from everyone who

455
00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:30.840
that I've heard from? Everyone I've
heard from has said that it's really great.

456
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:32.800
They couldn't put it down. It
kept them up to three and learning,

457
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.760
and those are great things to hear. I haven't heard much from a

458
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:47.039
larger audience yet. I have a
part time job working as a tutor at

459
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:53.079
a middle school here in town,
and the kids there they're they're really excited

460
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.480
about this book and one of the
teachers is going to adopt it for you

461
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:05.960
goal No, really great. Yeah. So I mean that's been a perfect

462
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:09.960
test audience to see just how much
they like it. And when when I

463
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:15.199
was still writing it before it was
published, they asked me, Okay,

464
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:17.639
well does it have a love interest
in it? Does it have this?

465
00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:21.639
Does it have that? You know, all the things that they wanted,

466
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.000
And so I was able to actually
talk with my test audience and make sure

467
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:30.320
that my book had what they wanted
in it. Oh interesting, and what

468
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.800
made you want to focus it at
young adults. Well that that was the

469
00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:39.039
brilliance of my friend Jennifer Madin,
who was in the middle school teacher at

470
00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:49.840
the time, and she had been
studying juvenile literature and realized that in that

471
00:48:50.039 --> 00:49:00.320
market there were no books about UFOs, none, not one, and that

472
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.000
this is a niche that could be
filled. She came up to the original

473
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.000
idea. She said, you should
write it, and as she and her

474
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:14.119
husband helped me flash it out and
make it work. And without them it

475
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:17.079
wouldn't exist. I wouldn't I wouldn't
even have thought to have written it.

476
00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:23.679
Wow. Cool. And then what
are some of the cases that are that

477
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:30.360
you cover touch upon in the book? And how does the book go about

478
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:34.559
doing that? Yeah, it's uh, let's see. I mean, I

479
00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:39.360
know, I know. I mentioned
Varney and Duddy Hill, I mentioned the

480
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:49.119
Zimbabwe school children case. I mentioned
Carla Turner. You know, basically,

481
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:59.840
I have characters who know a lot
about uthology and and and they they'll make

482
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:06.199
moments at certain moments about you know, oh, this reminds me of this

483
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:10.960
case or whatever. And I know
it sounds cumbersome explaining it this way,

484
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:17.280
but it actually works pretty well in
the book, So I guess when it

485
00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:23.679
comes to because it sounds like a
good way for someone thinking of the audience

486
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:30.800
the listeners who is into this topic
to kind of introduce it to their young

487
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:39.079
adult children. And however, some
of them who are and maybe it's like

488
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.199
a fifty to fifty split would be
my guest on those who think the Grays

489
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:45.800
are bad or that they're good,
or out there who believe in the Grays

490
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:51.280
at all. The ones though,
that have more of a positive outlook,

491
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.599
do you think this is still a
good book that they should because I could

492
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:57.599
see them saying, well, I
don't want to give my kid a book

493
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.360
that says, you know, the
aliens are bad. What would you be

494
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:04.000
your argument for, Hey, you
should still have them take a look.

495
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.119
Yeah, that's that's a great question. I I don't know that I would

496
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:15.719
argue to them. Yeah, I
think I think I actually might, because

497
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:27.039
because a parent like that obviously wants
to instill a certain worldview, and these

498
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:34.960
the world view in these books is
not entirely sparkling. It's it's kind of

499
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:45.239
dirty, it's kind of dangerous,
it's edgy. And if that's not the

500
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:49.119
kind of thing that a parent wants
their tild to read the will. I

501
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:54.960
fully support and understand that. I
myself like to look at, you know,

502
00:51:55.039 --> 00:52:00.760
all different sorts of ways of thinking
about you fall. You know,

503
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:09.360
whether it's someone who you know doesn't
even believe it, or if it's perhaps

504
00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:15.719
from a Christian perspective, or you
know, where they think that they're actually

505
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.880
demons and so forth. I find
all of that interesting, frankly, But

506
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:24.920
at the same time I realized that
most people, you know, don't really

507
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:32.199
have that much of a pluralist attitude
about it, that they are probably one

508
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:38.639
way or another. Yeah, right, right. And so finally, I

509
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:43.760
guess when it comes to well,
a couple of questions. One, what

510
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:45.920
would be then your strongest argument if
you were to say, you know,

511
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:51.360
you had a moment to say,
well, here's why I think, here's

512
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:54.440
why I question their motives. What
would be what would you tell people,

513
00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:12.320
Oh, well, certainly the simple
cost benefit analysis. What what bad things

514
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:17.679
have they done to us? Well, they've raped us, they've they've scared

515
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:22.719
the heck out of us, They've
they've they've probably killed and mutilated some of

516
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:30.280
us, and they haven't really given
us anything in return. What's one thing

517
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:35.800
they've given us in return, and
they cured one disease. Like I said

518
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.119
earlier, have they helped with the
environment even one bit? You know,

519
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:45.440
cycled one tin can uh? You
know, I don't think they have that.

520
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.360
That's that's my argument. At the
same time, I want to make

521
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:54.719
it very clear that I'm not trying
to convince anybody of anything. I'm merely

522
00:53:54.800 --> 00:54:01.880
giving one more voice and putting more
ideas out there. And I think that

523
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:08.079
the more different ideas that we have
working in euthology, the better chance we

524
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:15.840
will all have a starting to figure
out or learning how to figure out some

525
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:22.639
of these phenomena. And then I
think, would these be good books for

526
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:28.639
adults to Some of the boats have
read them and really enjoyed them. So

527
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:35.760
yeah, I mean, if if
you like a good euthology, want if

528
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:40.000
you liked for example, J.
J. Abrams Super eight, you know

529
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:45.880
it was kind of that I did
too. I mean, it just it

530
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:52.360
had that that that feeling of being
a kid again and you know, the

531
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.880
possibilities on a summer night. And
if if if you're ready in kind of

532
00:54:55.920 --> 00:55:00.719
nostalgia like that, I think you'd
enjoy the book. And then finally,

533
00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:05.840
being someone who's come from academia and
seeing the problems, like you said,

534
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:13.119
the career killing problems of being into
some fringe topics. How do you feel

535
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:15.559
we can get past that? Do
you think we will get past that?

536
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:20.239
Or is it? Is it kind
of too hard of a thing to tackle

537
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:27.920
anytime soon? That's that's that's an
excellent question. I don't think that academia

538
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:32.719
is going to bend anytime soon at
all. The folks that I have known

539
00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:45.559
are about career planning. They're about
uh, they're about writing and publishing articles,

540
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:52.119
and that's it, and anything else
they see as a threat and a

541
00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:55.320
waste of time. And I don't
I don't think the academia is going to

542
00:55:55.400 --> 00:56:05.239
change anytime soon. David Halprin,
who wrote the novel Journal of the UFO

543
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:13.159
Investigator, he was he was an
academia too for many years, and for

544
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:19.679
a while he was able to get
away with his his kind of side project

545
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:22.760
of studying euthology. But he said
he did catch up with them at the

546
00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:27.599
end, and luckily he was at
the point where he was ready to retire,

547
00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:32.840
so he didn't care. Mm hmm. Great. Interesting. Well,

548
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:39.760
people can go to Amazon to get
to your book Saucerville and then Is that

549
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:45.239
the best place to go? Yeah, it's yeah, uh huh and uh

550
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:52.039
so is there do you have another
website? Yes, I do. It's

551
00:56:52.239 --> 00:57:00.960
it's for the Saucerville Trilogy and it's
the website is just called the Fast of

552
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:06.960
the Trilogy dot com. Okay,
okay, perfect, great, Thanks well,

553
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.719
thank you so much for being on
the show. It's a really interesting

554
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:16.840
and different perspective, which always is
a lot of fun to hear something I

555
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:21.480
haven't heard before. So and I
think a lot of people will because it's

556
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:24.519
been a long time since I've talked
with someone who kind of had a different

557
00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:29.159
point of view. So I'm sure
there'll be some people that always are to

558
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:30.800
come out of the work work and
say, hey, that guy makes some

559
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:36.719
sense to me. So but either
way, it sounds like a fun book.

560
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:38.880
Well, thank you very much and
thank you for having me. It's

561
00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:43.960
been a pleasure. Thank you so
much to Jordan for joining us on the

562
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:50.800
show. So some pretty interesting ideas
I think that you would agree, like

563
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:54.599
the Little Gray Bastards type of stuff. That book's going to be coming out

564
00:57:55.039 --> 00:57:59.079
in a little bit. You can
read about when that book is coming out.

565
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:02.800
Actually, on his website, he
didn't mention this one Jordanhofer UFO dot

566
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:09.400
WordPress dot com. Jordanofer and Hopfer
is h O f E r UFO dot

567
00:58:09.400 --> 00:58:15.760
WordPress dot com. He mentioned the
other site that Sacerville Trilogy dot com website

568
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:22.920
where you can read about the Saucerville
book and then you can go to Amazon

569
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:29.440
and look for Saserville, Jordan Hofer
or EVOLUTIONARYUFO or ufology and you'll find him

570
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:32.760
on Amazon and all of his books
there. So if you want to look

571
00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:38.119
up some more information, that is
how you find it. Thank you once

572
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:45.679
again for joining us for OPENMINDUFO Radio. Next week we're planning to talk about

573
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:51.239
UFO and the Bibles from a gentleman
who's on ancient aliens once in a while,

574
00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:54.840
so you'll want to check that out. Of course, check out the

575
00:58:54.880 --> 00:59:00.440
website openminds dot tv. Check out
our YouTube channel where we've always got cool

576
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:04.639
new stuff going up there, including
spacing Out. There'll be a new one

577
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:07.400
this week. And then I want
to, as usual, thank the people

578
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:13.679
who made our music because I'm so
appreciative of them offering their music for us,

579
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:16.440
and I think they're very talented and
it's great music. Tayleib Hanks for

580
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:22.400
doing the opening music, and then
two earth minutes for the close, which

581
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:29.880
you will hear momentarily. Thank you
all for listening audio, smooth chutos.

582
00:59:29.960 --> 01:01:15.840
We'll talk to you next week.
Hi st st, st st st st