1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,280 and murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group 6 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:28,039 together with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, 7 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:32,039 a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 8 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:37,359 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my 9 00:00:37,399 --> 00:00:50,039 partner in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:54,799 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Julie Murray, advocate 11 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,119 and sister of Mara Murray. But Julie, thank you so much for joining 12 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,359 us on mind over Murder today. Bro, thank you so much for having 13 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:06,239 me for the record. I just want everyone around the world to know that 14 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,840 Julie asked a question which sounded so serious. She just wanted to ask Kristin 15 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,079 Dilly if she knew who won the Army Navy game this year. For the 16 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,439 record, I did, now, and who would that be, Kristen, 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:26,439 That would be Army and who was grinning widely when she asked this question. 18 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:34,319 That would be me and miss Murray perhaps. Oh. Yes, Julie and 19 00:01:34,359 --> 00:01:38,519 I first met a few months ago, and I remember, at the end 20 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:47,879 of a very pleasant electronic message exchange she finished off by saying something about unfamiliar 21 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,200 expressions, that something about go Army beat Navy, which is completely backwards from 22 00:01:53,200 --> 00:02:00,719 my Navy family's perspective. Here it is several months later, and Julie is 23 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,159 still lording over me the fact that the cadets of Army West Point, it's 24 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:12,599 somewhere in New York, I think, beat the noble Midshipment of Annapolis. 25 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:17,439 So yes, for the record, Julie, my recollection is that Army did 26 00:02:17,439 --> 00:02:21,120 win this year. I tried to keep it off record, but you brought 27 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:24,080 it up. We're very excited to have you joined us. Before we go 28 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,120 ahead and get in the big issues here that we want to talk about, 29 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:31,120 tell us a little bit about yourself and your family. Yes, so, 30 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:38,800 Julie Murray I'm one of Mar's Murray's sisters, and we grew up on the 31 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,800 South Shore, Massachusetts, relatively large family, two brothers, two sisters. 32 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Both our parents were in the medical field. We were constantly playing sports and 33 00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:54,879 competing with each other growing up as kids, always outdoors. This was back 34 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,199 before everyone had a tablet and cell phone, so that most of our time 35 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:07,159 entertaining ourselves outside, and there would be some heated battles, of course, 36 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,879 as there always is within a family, but it was great. Growing up. 37 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,039 We did a lot of hiking, camping in the White Mounts of New 38 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,319 Hampshire. Everyone in my family is an outdoor enthusiast, so we just loved 39 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:25,159 that stuff. Maura and I took a love for running pretty early on. 40 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:30,599 Our dad was a marathon or and I remember one kind of cute story was 41 00:03:30,719 --> 00:03:36,439 my dad was training for his eighth or ninth Boston Marathon one time, wow, 42 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,280 and he came back from an eighteen mile training run, and I remember 43 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:46,319 Maura and I begging him to take us on a marathon, and so he 44 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,400 says, all right, girls, we'll go do this marathon. And what 45 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,840 he did was he took us around the community block. It was probably a 46 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:59,080 quarter of a mile and that we jogged behind him and when we got done, 47 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:03,159 he said, you just did your first My thought all your kids. 48 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:10,039 At this point we were probably I was probably six more maybe been. I 49 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:13,560 don't know, maybe seven and five because we're two years apart. But we 50 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,720 were just thrilled. And I think that's when our love for running started. 51 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:21,240 So we grew up running competitively in high school and I would set records and 52 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:26,920 more would come behind me and break all my records. Wow, that's actually 53 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,199 pretty cool, isn't it. Yeah. Yeah, she was a better runner 54 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,319 than I was. And then school work was very important to us in our 55 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,519 family. We knew we had too many kids to send us all to college. 56 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,680 So we figured, if we do well in school and we continue this 57 00:04:42,759 --> 00:04:45,920 running thing, it will open some doors for us. And it did, 58 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,600 and I got accepted into west Point in nineteen ninety eight class of two thousand 59 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:58,959 and two. Maura followed right behind me and she joined in two thousand and 60 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,199 so we were at west Point together for some time, and Lamara decided it 61 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,160 wasn't the best fit for her, and the service academies are a beast and 62 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:11,079 it's not for everyone, and as good as Mara was and running and how 63 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,439 smart she was. The military aspect wasn't for her, and all the discipline 64 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:17,959 and rules and regiments. I loved it. She did not love it as 65 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:24,000 much. So then she transferred to University of Massachusetts, got accepted into the 66 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:29,759 very prestigious nursing program. Then one fateful night in February two thousand and four, 67 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:33,319 she disappeared and we haven't heard or seen from her since. Let's talk 68 00:05:33,319 --> 00:05:38,959 a little bit more about the army thing. What put West Point on your 69 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,879 radar as a young person. We're probably going back to junior high or high 70 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:46,240 school. What made you decide I want to pursue West Point and join the 71 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:51,600 military. When I was a junior in high school, I learned about some 72 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:56,959 program at the United States Coast Guard Academy, and it was a week long 73 00:05:57,079 --> 00:06:00,399 summer program where high school kids could come in and see what it was like 74 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:05,920 to be at the academy. And I went there and I absolutely fell in 75 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,759 love with and I loved the discipline, and I just loved everything about it. 76 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:14,319 So I came home and I was so excited, and I told my 77 00:06:14,399 --> 00:06:18,160 dad and he said, well, there's other service academies and So what really 78 00:06:18,199 --> 00:06:21,560 sealed the deal for me was when I got a recruiting letter from West Point 79 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:25,920 cross country team, and then I went out there for a visit, and 80 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:30,079 of course I fell more in love with West Point than I did the Coastguard 81 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:34,120 Academy because I'm not a big fan of being on water, So west Point 82 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:40,360 it was in. West Point's a spectacular, beautiful location of the Hudson Valley 83 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:44,800 and it is a spectacular place to go to school. Full disclosure, my 84 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,839 dad actually went to the Coastguard Academy for a year and then he was homesick, 85 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:56,240 which is hard to believe. He then dropped out, went back home 86 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,959 to Lowell, Massachusetts, his hometown, went to Boston College for two years, 87 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,800 and then decided to take another run at the service academies and applied to 88 00:07:05,879 --> 00:07:12,480 and was accepted to the Naval Academy. Was Maura's decision to follow in your 89 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:15,879 footsteps? Was that related to the fact that you were at West Point and 90 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,560 you were thriving, and she thought, I want to do that too. 91 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,319 I think for Maura, she got firsthand experience because she would come up and 92 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:28,199 visit me and come see my track meets. Because where we grew up in 93 00:07:28,279 --> 00:07:30,120 Hampton. It was only a three and a half hour ride to West Point, 94 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,560 so it wasn't a big deal for Maura to jump in the car with 95 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,759 my dad and spend the weekend up at West Point with me. So I 96 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,800 think she felt and saw how much I loved it and how excited I was, 97 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:45,079 and the group of friends that I made, and just wanted to be 98 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,319 a part of something like that. My dad encouraged her to apply to all 99 00:07:48,319 --> 00:07:53,560 the service academies, not air Force because it's out in Colorado. And also 100 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,720 Schmara was recruited by big name schools at Harvard and Yale and Brown, and 101 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:05,759 she said I'm going to West Point her So she re nomination and got Senator 102 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:13,639 Ted Kennedy to co sign her congressional nomination. Wow, that is impressive, 103 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,360 but it does sound like she could have had her choice of schools. She 104 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:20,800 was really being offered a lot of attractive options. And maybe you're being a 105 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,600 little bit modest, but you did say that she was an even better runner 106 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:30,079 than you were in terms of her ability on the track. Yes, her 107 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,039 body was just better suited for running. She was a little bit taller than 108 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,559 me, a little bit, wait, a little bit less. I'm a 109 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,759 little bit bigger through the shoulders, so she was better suited for it. 110 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,320 Runnings in our blood. So I ran, even though I wasn't probably the 111 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,759 best sport for me. So what were her events? Longer distance? The 112 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:54,600 two mile? She was great at cross country, two mile, five k, 113 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,960 five thousand. After you graduated from West Point, you did have a 114 00:08:58,039 --> 00:09:01,279 career in the Army, tell us a little bit about that, and then 115 00:09:01,399 --> 00:09:05,840 tell us about your decision to leave the Army. I graduate well before I 116 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:09,000 graduated, we have this thing at West Point called Branch Night. Basically, 117 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,399 it stacks up your class rank, your military rank, and your physical rank 118 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:18,600 into a ranking system, and so you get to choose, based on your 119 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:24,279 rank which branches you want your top three and I choose the ordinance branch at 120 00:09:24,279 --> 00:09:28,080 the time, it's now the Logistics branch. It just randomly chose it. 121 00:09:28,159 --> 00:09:33,200 I didn't really have any rhyme or reason for it, but it worked out 122 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,440 for me, and I was originally to be my first duty station was supposed 123 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,159 to be in Germany. At that time, as a twenty something year old, 124 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,039 I could not fathom being away, being out of the country for three 125 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,759 years. I thought it was it notunded like an eternity to me. So 126 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:56,080 I said, you know what, I'm going to trade this sweet Germany assignment 127 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,080 for this assignment in South Korea because it's only one year, and then I 128 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,639 can come back and get my state side assignment which I wanted, which was 129 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,679 four Brag. I've always wanted four break, and so I did that. 130 00:10:09,159 --> 00:10:13,159 I graduated ship over to South Korea. Have no idea what the hell I'm 131 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,919 doing. I'm a second lieutenant, don't know anything. You go to West 132 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,159 Point and you learn all this leadership, but when you're put on the spot 133 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,240 and said to go on out and lead, you really you don't know what 134 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:26,960 you're doing. So you have to rely on your bench strength, which is 135 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,399 non commission officer corps. So I had a great non commission officer support team 136 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,799 behind me, and they showed me the ropes and kept me out of trouble 137 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,559 until I learned what I was supposed to be doing. And so I did 138 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:43,320 that for a year. And while I was in Korea, Mara was at 139 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,120 UMass in the nursing program, so we would communicate primarily through instant messenger back 140 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:54,840 in the day for text and all that, and it was good because her 141 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,039 schedule was all over the place and the difference in the time didn't make it 142 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,519 conducive to phone calls or anything like that, so we would just message and 143 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:05,919 that's how we stayed in touch. But then when I came back from Korea, 144 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,320 it was December twenty third, two thousand and three, and it was 145 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:15,000 right before Christmas, and I spent Christmas in Hanson, Massachusetts with my family, 146 00:11:15,039 --> 00:11:18,399 and Mara was there. And that was the last time I saw Mara 147 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,600 was at Christmas in two thousand and three. And then I went to my 148 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,639 next assignment, which was at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and then within 149 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:30,960 weeks More disappears and I get my brand new assignment at Fort Bragg, and 150 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,600 I'm this platoon leader in charge of a platoon that's on orders to deploy, 151 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:41,120 and it was just so much stress all at once. I was just coming 152 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:45,519 into the unit and here I am having this major tragedy happened with Mara being 153 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,120 missing, and so thankfully I was able to get one of my fellow lieutenants 154 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,039 to take that platoon and on the deployment so that I could stay back because 155 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,399 at that point we really didn't know, we had no idea. We didn't 156 00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:00,480 have any answers. We didn't know what was going on. I get to 157 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,480 say back a Fort Brag. It took me a while to get to New 158 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,600 Hampshire because there was all of this administrative work that needed to be done to 159 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:11,240 get myself cleared off that deployment. I finally get to New Hampshire and by 160 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,840 the time I got there, they still had no answers. And I go 161 00:12:15,919 --> 00:12:20,320 back to Fort Brag and spend my next four years there making trips home when 162 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,919 I could, and as hard as a lieutenant to just take leave all the 163 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,759 time, so I didn't get up there as much as I wanted to. 164 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,879 Then it came around the five year mark where you have to decide whether you 165 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:33,720 want to stay in the service or you want to get out, And at 166 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:37,360 that point, again we still didn't have any answers, and I didn't want 167 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,320 to risk having to leave my family again or get a duty station across the 168 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,159 country where it would be difficult for me to fly home if I needed to, 169 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,080 so I just opted to get out of the service. How did your 170 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,360 family feel about your decision to leave the Army as a young officer at the 171 00:12:54,399 --> 00:12:58,279 five year point where you could have had a pretty stellar army career ahead of 172 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:03,080 you. How did they feel about your decision to not react? My mom 173 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:07,600 was thrilled. She didn't like it that I was traveling the world and it 174 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:11,320 was hard to get in touch with me. She wanted me a little bit 175 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,639 closer and a little bit more stable in terms of my future. So my 176 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:18,320 mom was thrilled. My dad was somewhat indifferent. He just wanted me to 177 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,759 be happy. So they were okay with a decision to step away from your 178 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,200 army career. By the way, is there somewhere in the dark recesses of 179 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,639 your family's history. Is there a decision point where you decided to go to 180 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:37,039 the dark side joining the US Army versus a nice place like Annapolis and the 181 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,320 Naval Academy. So I did apply and get accepted to the Naval Academy. 182 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:43,960 Of course you did, but I didn't. I didn't want to go with 183 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:50,279 the second best service academy. Oh man, my family is recoiling now. 184 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,559 But I did set myself up for this. Set yourself up for it. 185 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,159 Just as a reminder in case anyone's forgotten. I come from a Navy family, 186 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,639 and Julie and I do enjoy discussing this. Did Moura I ever consider 187 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,639 going to Annapolis? Nope, I guess didn't even apply second best. Probably 188 00:14:07,639 --> 00:14:11,080 just wasn't getting cutter for you. It wasn't good enough for mar either. 189 00:14:11,519 --> 00:14:15,639 No, but Maura didn't apply to anywhere else. I applied to the Naval 190 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:20,159 Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, West Point, Boston University. I think 191 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:24,399 I might have even applied to UMSS, maybe Boston College. But Maura applied 192 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,559 to one school, and that was West Point. I wanted to ask you 193 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:35,039 something. When you saw Maura at home Christmas two thousand and three, this 194 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,200 is just two months or so before she went missing. Was she troubled? 195 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:41,840 Did you feel like something was going on? I know you'd had this close 196 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:46,000 relationship, but you're communicating via instant message from Korea, and now you have 197 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,120 a chance to spend a few days together and maybe go running and talk. 198 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:54,879 Did it feel like her life was on track at that point or did you 199 00:14:54,919 --> 00:14:58,679 feel like you saw any troubling signs about things that might have been going on 200 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,799 in her life Christmas? I didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I 201 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,519 didn't notice anything. In fact, I thought she seemed really good. I 202 00:15:07,559 --> 00:15:11,600 thought she was fitting in at UMass. I knew that she enjoyed the nursing 203 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:16,200 program. She really liked that, she liked working with people. She have 204 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,039 to go to clinicals and work in hospitals and work with patients. She absolutely 205 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:24,879 loved that. And one of our traditions and my family, as we always 206 00:15:24,919 --> 00:15:30,279 do holiday morning runs. We did our Christmas morning run together and she was 207 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,519 pushing it a little bit with the pace, of course, but we chatted 208 00:15:33,559 --> 00:15:37,799 just like we always did, and there didn't seem to be anything that I 209 00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:41,320 noticed. Although I didn't know at the time what I know now, I 210 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,080 probably would have paid more attention, but I didn't notice anything different. I 211 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,759 thought she seemed much happier than she did at school at West Point. Tell 212 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:54,799 us if you would give us the basics. Assume someone knows nothing about Morea's 213 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,200 disappearance, and I know it's hard. We talk about the rabbit holes and 214 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,279 the Colonial Parkway murders's case, and there's so much depth to Mara's case. 215 00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:07,039 Can you give a sort of the brief overview of what happened? The brief 216 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:10,639 overview is that Marrow was twenty one. As I said, she was a 217 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,480 USS nursing student. On February ninth, two thousand and four, she turned 218 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,000 in her nursing school homework really early in the morning, I think it was 219 00:16:19,039 --> 00:16:23,159 around three in the morning, and that nursing school homework assignment was to look 220 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,919 up pregnancy terms. So she looked up her terms and she sent it off 221 00:16:27,039 --> 00:16:32,600 to her classmates. Then I'm assuming she gets some sleep, and then later 222 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:37,559 on in that day, maybe mid morning, she emails her professors and said 223 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,039 that there was a death in the family and that she would need to be 224 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:44,639 out of classes, and that was not true. There was no death in 225 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:49,960 the family. And then she contacted a fellow nursing school colleague and said, 226 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,799 hey, I want to return these clothes that I borrowed from you. And 227 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:59,639 she returned the clothes, and then she went to an atm she withdrew two 228 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,319 hundred and eighty dollars, leaving less than twenty dollars in her bank account, 229 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,680 and then she went to a local liquor store. She picked up approximately forty 230 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,759 dollars worth of liquor, and then she went I'm not sure of the exact 231 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,880 order of when she went to pick up the accident forms because two nights before, 232 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:19,960 she had gotten to an accident in my dad's new car, and so 233 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,920 she needed to get these accident forms for the insurance, and the insurance covered 234 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,519 that. So at some point during that day she did that because they were 235 00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:33,440 found in her car. And then she sends email an email to her boyfriend. 236 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:37,200 Her boyfriend was stationed at Fort Sill, Oklahoma at the time, and 237 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,920 she basically said, I don't feel much of talking to anyone, but I 238 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,359 love you. I'll call you later. Then at four thirty seven she checks 239 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,279 her voicemail and that would be the last phone activity on her phone. We 240 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,880 know that she got into her nineteen ninety six beat up black sedan that was 241 00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:59,759 running on three cylinders and she headed north and the next data point we had, 242 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,279 approximately seven thirty PM, a neighbor saw a car off the side of 243 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:10,000 the road in a town called harl New Hampshire. When this neighbor looked out 244 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,200 the window called nine to one one said there's a car off the road. 245 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,319 While she was doing that, a bus driver his name was bitch Atwood. 246 00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:22,200 He came around the corner that mars Mark spun out on that she didn't spend 247 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,839 out. She basically went off the road and stopped and asked if Marra needed 248 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,720 help, and mar said no, she had called Triple A, which could 249 00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:34,160 not have been true because there was no cell phone service in the area. 250 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,240 Now I don't know to this day whether she was planning to call Trible A 251 00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:41,839 and just told him that, or if she actually had called Triple or if 252 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,319 she attempted to call Triple A and then just lied to him to get him 253 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,440 to go away. So anyway, he goes back to his house, which 254 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,680 was right around right down the street, about one hundred and fifty yards, 255 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,599 and then by the time the first responding officer showed up, about fifteen minutes 256 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,279 max later, the car was locked at a bay and Maura was never seen 257 00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:06,160 again. If I'm not mistaken, there's a Triple A card out in the 258 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,279 car, in other words, visible somewhere. I'm not sure where it was 259 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,200 in the car, but I know that she had multiple Triple A cards. 260 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:18,880 Several of the people that saw the car, some of them said they thought 261 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,319 they saw a young woman standing outside the vehicle. There's varying accounts. So 262 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,640 we have three witnesses. We have mister and missus Westman. They were the 263 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,400 first nine one one caller. Then we have the bus driver, Butch Atwood, 264 00:19:30,599 --> 00:19:36,799 and then we have the Marats, who were further removed from where the 265 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:40,559 car was found, but they also looked out the window and saw the Westman's 266 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,880 say that they saw the driver, who we have to assume was Mara, 267 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,200 get out and go to the trunk area, and there's this flurry of activity 268 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,799 in the trunk area. And then Butch, the bus driver, said that 269 00:19:52,839 --> 00:19:56,400 when he came up to the vehicle, Mara was still in the car and 270 00:19:56,759 --> 00:20:00,799 he could only see from her neck up because the airbags had deployed. But 271 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,559 then he later changed that and said, no, I actually spoke to her 272 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:08,200 while she was standing up between the car and the snow bank, and we 273 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,440 spoke over the roof of the car. The Marauts just noted that they did 274 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:18,039 look out the window and see reverse lights on Mara's car at one time, 275 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,640 as if she was trying to maneuver the car into a better position or get 276 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,160 it out of there. I'm sure it's a thought that's occurred to you many 277 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,680 times since February of two thousand and three in now, and I'm sure it 278 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,359 will continue again. But do you have a theory as to what may have 279 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,000 happened to Mara. And I imagine if you're anything like Bill and I, 280 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:41,440 you've probably got multiple theories, and maybe they change a little bit from day 281 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,039 to day. Do you have a prevailing theory right at the moment as to 282 00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:48,720 what might have happened at this point nineteen years later. I have to live 283 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:52,119 in reality, and I have to look at the evidence, and I have 284 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,920 to realize and take into account that there's been no credible sightings, no cell 285 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,960 phone activity, no bank activity, and no remains ever found. So for 286 00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:06,720 me, sadly, that indicates that she was involved with foul play. And 287 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:08,880 as much as I hate to say, that's where I am, but it's 288 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:14,720 correct in that my theory has changed slightly over the years. What had it 289 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,799 started as, Yeah, I guess would be my question. It started at 290 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,799 as a little bit more hopeful, thinking maybe she tried to get help and 291 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:26,880 walk down the road and then went into the woods, or maybe she just 292 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,599 went into the woods. But we've searched the woods hundreds of times and we've 293 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:36,960 never found anything. Nothing of Mars has ever been found. You're listening to 294 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:41,720 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 295 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:51,720 We're back here at Mind over Murder when we talk about the potential for foul 296 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:55,079 play, and I know this is a dark place to go. There's these 297 00:21:55,119 --> 00:22:00,279 three witnesses i'll call them that reported the varying versions of what they saw, 298 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,960 which this does happen where we can all witness an event and a recollection, 299 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,640 and I'm assuming these people are doing their best good faith effort to recall what 300 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:15,279 they saw. Do you feel like any of them would be involved in foul 301 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,440 play or do you think this is an unknown person. I would suspect that 302 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:26,759 any of the witnesses were involved. I do believe that maybe they saw something 303 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:33,279 that they didn't connect as being significant but may have been very significant. Unfortunate, 304 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,880 Butch passed away, so he was one of the main people. I 305 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,519 wish we could have pressed more for information and get exactly what the story was, 306 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:45,680 because he did tell different variations of the story. So it's hard to 307 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,400 say, but I don't suspect any of the witnesses were involved in any way, 308 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,200 but they may have seen something that could have helped us get some resolution 309 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,920 on this a little bit sooner. One of the things that we have found 310 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,640 in the Colonial Parkway murders. This happen with Bill and the other families as 311 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,920 I've worked with them for a while. Now, is that the Parkway murders 312 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,279 families have transitioned from parents standing in the media on law enforcement, LI is 313 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:17,079 on rolland now it's siblings. Bill lost his dad and so now it's it's 314 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,960 Bill who's in that role. Is that happening in your case or your parents 315 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,200 still taking an active role in there. My mother passed away. Unfortunately, 316 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,119 she passed away on Mar's birthday, which is another tragic twist to this hospital. 317 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,440 I'm sorry. And my dad is still very active. However, he 318 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,880 is also eighty years old. So he's active in the best ways that he 319 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,400 can be, which is talking to people, and he's very good. Yeah, 320 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,319 And so when leads come in, he wants to be spearheading the initial 321 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,200 contact with some of these people, not all, but some because when you 322 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,039 talk to my dad, you can see his pain and you can see his 323 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,920 desperation even to this day, nineteen years later, and his plea to these 324 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:02,480 people to just give him anything, any little piece that they may think is 325 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:07,000 insignificant, because we can then use those pieces to fill in this puzzle. 326 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,720 On the public side, it's been me who's been taking the lead role, 327 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:17,160 like I should say, in terms of media and doing podcasts and speaking engagements, 328 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,960 running the websites and facebooks and all that kind of stuff. So that's 329 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,000 been me. I do have help from my brothers. They're behind the scene 330 00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:29,640 helpers. They don't want to be out there, but whatever I need, 331 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:33,200 they will drop everything and help me. So I feel pretty supported. And 332 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:41,200 also there's this whole group of people and supporters online that have just shown us 333 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,839 so much love and support over the years, and that has meant so much 334 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,759 to us. There some of them feel like family. I consider them some 335 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:53,119 of them family. They're always at all the vigils, and they're at all 336 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,920 the searches, and we keep in close contact, and so as tragic as 337 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,920 it is to someone go missing, you do get the silver lining of having 338 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:10,960 this new found family. How is your approach different from your father's approach, 339 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,480 Julie, You different people. You're fully a generation younger. You come at 340 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,920 this from a different point of view. How's your approach different from your father's. 341 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:26,200 I'm much more levelheaded. My dad is a father who lost his baby, 342 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,480 and he is a bulldog. When it comes to demanding answers, demanding 343 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,440 action, and he's been successful at that, and he goes about it in 344 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,880 a more of an aggressive way. I go about it in more of a 345 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,799 collaborative way. And I think we work well together because I think you need 346 00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,599 both sides. When I go into a meeting with law enforcement, I want 347 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,839 to exchange ideas. I want to tell them what tips I have learned about. 348 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,839 I want to ask them what they can share with me, as opposed 349 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,000 to my dad, who just wants to demand what is being done. But 350 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,599 he's softened a little bit out of the year. I hope he doesn't hear 351 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,119 me say that, but I think we worked great. I think that hammock 352 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,720 works great, and the past couple of years is it's been very effective. 353 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,200 I will admit I've never met your dad, but I probably am speaking for 354 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:17,440 a lot of people. I really like your dad, and I admire your 355 00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:21,519 dad. I've watched a number of interviews that he's done, and of course 356 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,559 the television series on Oxygen and so many more things. I just really have 357 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,039 a great positive feeling about your dad. I get where he's coming from, 358 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,400 and I think I can understand it. I appreciate his intelligence and his thoughtfulness 359 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,440 and his intensity in trying to move forward the search for your sister. Yeah, 360 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,839 and he's been unrelenting. Like I said, this has been going on 361 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,440 nineteen years this February, and he has not once ever let up. In 362 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,400 the beginning, he was up searching by himself, sometimes boots on the ground 363 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,160 for his daughter. He's my hero for that to be able to force yourself 364 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,880 to go do that. And if you just look at that in isolation, 365 00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:08,519 just look at that alone. Does this man he's going to go look behind 366 00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:12,119 this tree or in this well to see if he can find the remains of 367 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,920 his daughter. The trauma that goes along with that. Yeah, and then 368 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,000 compound that over nineteen years, I mean, that man is incredible. He's 369 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,440 still going stopping it. He wasn't even a kid then. He was very 370 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,240 dynamic and young looking. But I realized he was probably around sixty years old 371 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:34,119 when this happened. Yeah, sixty two. I believe you had mentioned a 372 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,319 couple of minutes ago about a wonderful supportive online community, and we have found 373 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,920 that to be the case as well. With the Colonel Parkway murders. I 374 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,440 think, as always happens with a high profile case, you also end up 375 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:52,880 running up against some of the more colorful characters of the Internet. Shall we 376 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:57,480 say, how do you deal with the huge influx of not only support, 377 00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:03,240 but also tips, maybe crackpot tips. How do you deal with all of 378 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:04,599 that? We have our end ways that we have to deal with it. 379 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,839 In some days it's easier than others. How do you deal with the more 380 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,160 colorful side of the Internet. It's hard. It's hard not to engage with 381 00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:18,039 trolls because sometimes you don't know their trolls until later on. My practice is 382 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:23,319 to not feed the trolls, and so I stay away from sites like Reddit 383 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:29,440 and things like that where people can hide behind anonymity. Places like windwork are 384 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,640 a little bit less egregious, I would say, because tend to there's not 385 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,000 that many as many fake accounts. But as big as mars Case is in 386 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,119 my world, mars Case is my world, it's a relatively smaller case in 387 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,640 the grand scheme of things. So what tends to happen with these cases is 388 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:52,079 you get a loud voice, a few loud voices, and they dominate the 389 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:57,640 conversation, dominate the narrative, and when you introduce a competing narrative. In 390 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,519 a setting where you've got somebody that thinks that they own the case, then 391 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,359 they feel like their influence over the case is in jeopardy, and so that 392 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:15,480 results in attacks. That's been difficult in challenging to try to introduce competing narrative. 393 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,319 It's my own sister. I know her best, so I should be 394 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,799 able to say, hey, this is misinformation, or let me correct this 395 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:26,480 wild speculation. This didn't happen. And sometimes by doing that, I put 396 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,559 myself out there as a target for attacks, and that's not the way it 397 00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:34,599 should be. I think it's getting better, but it doesn't need to change 398 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,799 because there should be a discussion. She's still missing. No one's found her, 399 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,279 nobody, no one person has the answer. So the more people we 400 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:48,279 have working together in concert, the more likely we're going to find Mara and 401 00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:52,359 find out what happened to her. I try to combat the misinformation with better 402 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,240 information, and that seems to work, and that does debtail very nicely, 403 00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:00,880 I think into the next discussion point that we want to bring up, which 404 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,519 is your Engage with Empathy campaign, which we did an episode about here on 405 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:11,440 the podcast and which we wholly support one. So can you tell us a 406 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,279 little bit about engage with empathy and what sort of motivated you to start that. 407 00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:18,960 Yes, I've learned a lot over the last nineteen years, and one 408 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:23,359 key thing is that there are three main elements at play. So there's the 409 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:30,160 investigation, there's the people left behind, and then the media, so creators 410 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:37,039 and consumers. When you unravel these three, you'll find that there's codependencies. 411 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:42,119 Take for instance, the investigation. What warms up a cold case, awareness, 412 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:48,240 credible leads, But that burden, as we talked about earlier, usually 413 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:53,000 falls on the shoulders of the families left behind, and so day in and 414 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:57,759 day out, and sometimes for decades. In our cases, we show up 415 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:03,160 for our loved ones, raising awareness, posting on social media, being vulnerable, 416 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,079 putting ourselves out there, and sometimes, as I said before, the 417 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:15,519 result is we become the target ourselves. And as it is physically and mentally 418 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,480 exhausting, what keeps us going hope? And what's the secret ingredient for hope 419 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:29,880 empathy? And so that's where we circle back to that third element, the 420 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,200 media, the creators and consumers with missing and murdered unsolved cases, we have 421 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:41,160 to rely on the media to keep these stories alive, but we're in a 422 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:47,880 vulnerable position. So Engaging with Empathy is a way to bring awareness to this 423 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,119 disturbing trend that we're seeing all over the place, especially in recent times of 424 00:31:52,480 --> 00:32:01,240 exploitation, speculation, the proliferation of misinformation all over the The motivation for the 425 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:07,200 Engage with Empathy campaign was so that I could raise awareness to hey, there's 426 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,279 some things that are going wrong here and we can do this better. And 427 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:17,039 so it's more of a guiding light for creators and consumers to not extinguish that 428 00:32:17,279 --> 00:32:22,079 hope. And so it all comes full circle, and that is the impetus 429 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:27,599 behind the Engage with Empathy campaign. Now that hashtag engage with Empathy, which 430 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,480 we've both used, Kristen and I and lots of other people have used. 431 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:36,680 In my mind, you're the first person I saw use that hashtag. It's 432 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,480 either you or Sarah Attorney. I think, both of whom were people that 433 00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:45,559 I greatly admire. This was something that you very consciously decided to create. 434 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:47,960 It feels very grassroots. Were you the first to use it? Yeah? 435 00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:53,599 I even talked to Sarah about it before I launched the campaign on our website. 436 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,279 I said, Hey, Sarah, I'm doing this campaign. I just 437 00:32:58,279 --> 00:33:01,079 want you to be aware it's going to be called Engage Empathy and we're gonna 438 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:05,920 post and start hashtagging everything with it. And she totally loved the idea and 439 00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:09,359 has supported it fully. Yeah, we both think she's amazing, and I'm 440 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,319 not surprised that she was all over it because she had done some panels and 441 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,880 discussions about ethics and true crime, which I think is certainly related. I 442 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,920 didn't think I'm not criticizing at all. I'm totally supportive, and I know 443 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,759 Kristen is too. But I think engage with Empathy draws people in a little 444 00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:34,240 bit more because that's something that I think we can all understand and you articulate 445 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,119 why this is important. I think for ethics and true crime, I think 446 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:44,000 there's a lot of people and we consider ourselves quasi journalists here. It might 447 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:46,160 over murder, but I think a lot of people that write about a report 448 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,960 about true crime, they would think, of course, I wouldn't be unethical, 449 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,640 and so I think that word ethics has a little bit of a sharp 450 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:59,440 edge to it, whereas engage with empathy. Those three words together you think 451 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,480 to yourself, Okay, yeah, I want to show support for families and 452 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:08,559 survivors. I recently did a TikTok or some stupid TikTok trend that I'm doing 453 00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:16,320 new put me on to TikTok and it was the theme is say something where 454 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,320 there's no pushback or there's nothing that you can say why it's not a good 455 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,079 idea. So I did one that says, list the reasons why engaging with 456 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,480 empathy is not something you should do, And if you think about it, 457 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:37,440 there's absolutely no reason why one wouldn't engage with empathy. It's free, it 458 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,199 doesn't have any barriers to entry. Anyone can do it. You feel better, 459 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,880 the person you're engaging with feels better. Just a no brainer to me. 460 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:51,480 But some people want to go online and troll vulnerable people like myself, 461 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,400 and it just doesn't make sense to me. So I wanted to call it 462 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,800 out. Even in the very recent Idaho four case, that everybody is just 463 00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:05,679 following like nothing that I've ever seen. You have a lot of people who 464 00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:09,239 were slagging various people in that case. That roommate, for example, the 465 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:15,760 surviving roommate DM, she took a ton of flak online for essentially surviving. 466 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:20,639 She survived, and she just got torn apart by the internet. Our friend 467 00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:25,119 doctor Ramsland also got dragged through the mud because she happened to be her teacher 468 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,679 and she did not notice, as if she had a crystal ball that he 469 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,800 was going to turn into a spree killer. There have been a lot of 470 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,119 times watching the coverage with Idaho for and then also Delphi, where I've just 471 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,679 looked at everybody and been like, oh my gosh, can we please take 472 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:45,960 a minute and engage with empathy? Be better people? I feel so bad, 473 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,280 especially right at the moment for that a surviving roommate who is just getting 474 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,440 dragged across social media for no reason that I can possibly understand. Yeah, 475 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:59,639 And that's so as part of the gage engage with Empathy campaign, I came 476 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,119 up with a kind of quick way to remember what some of the main pillars 477 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:06,920 are of it, and the last one talks about it. It's at the 478 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,000 eve and care. Using the care principle, where it's engaged with empathy, 479 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:16,280 we can prevent this exploitation that's happening, and these public indictments of totally innocent 480 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,679 people's happening. It happened in my case, it's happening now currently as you've 481 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,760 mentioned in the Idaho case, where people are invading these people's privacy and making 482 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,840 public decisions and private things public, and then the Internet goes crazy and tries 483 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,800 to make them complicit and a quadruple murder. You're ruining lives by doing that. 484 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:45,960 We were really disturbed when people were throwing out different potential suspects names, 485 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:52,199 and these are armchair detectives that are just deciding it must be involved. So 486 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:58,119 it's these would be people that law enforcement would likely look at, former girlfriends, 487 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:02,199 former boyfriends, people that had relationships with some of the victims or the 488 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:08,440 survivors. But to out these people and docks, these people start posting people's 489 00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:14,440 names, addresses, phone numbers, a bit about their schedules or how their 490 00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:21,079 lives intersected with these victims. It was so unbelievably irresponsible, not to mention 491 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,360 trashing the fraternities and sororities that some of the Idaho four were members of. 492 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:32,119 The whole thing got so kind of malevolent. Almost were just throwing dirt at 493 00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:38,039 all of these people who've just suffered a phenomenal loss. They lost four dear 494 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:44,159 friends in the most horrible way I can imagine. And of course ninety nine 495 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,280 point nine percent of that crap that was thrown around on the internet was wrong. 496 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:52,159 It wasn't any of those people. Now, no one's been proven to 497 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:57,239 be an offender here, but they've arrested someone and they seem to be indicating 498 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,239 that Koburger is the eating suspect. Then I think they'll be able to build 499 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:07,320 a strong case against this man. That means that all the other garbage that 500 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:13,199 was thrown around and damaging people's reputations was meaningless and stupid, and I could 501 00:38:13,199 --> 00:38:17,719 just keep going on. One thing that really struck me is the food truck 502 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,039 video footage where people are slowing it down and zooming it in and then just 503 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:30,079 throwing all these people out there into the public arena for discussion. And a 504 00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:34,840 similar thing happened to Maura in that there is people that were seeing in photos 505 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,639 with Maura, and then those people were posted online and their names were put 506 00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:43,599 out there and their mothers were called just because they were seen in a photo 507 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:49,320 with my sister before she went missing. It just blows my mind that people 508 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,639 think that is okay to do. And here she is attending a large state 509 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,559 school which I happened to be a graduate of the u mess is even bigger 510 00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,400 now than it was when I was there. But there are thirty thousand students 511 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,920 there between graduate and undergraduate students, so that's a very large university community. 512 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,920 And the fact that someone would be in a picture with Mora Murray, all 513 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,599 that means is that they were in a picture with Mora Murray a particular place, 514 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:19,039 at a particular time. She probably had a lot of friends and a 515 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:22,280 lot of classmates and knew a lot of people. What does that mean. 516 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,280 It doesn't mean anything but to start digging into these people's backgrounds as if somehow 517 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,599 they are suspects because they showed up in a picture with a missing girl, 518 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:37,679 it just seems absurd. What it also does is it alienates other people from 519 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:43,440 coming forward and saying, oh, I noticed something or I have information to 520 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,480 tell you. They're not going to be as likely to do that. If 521 00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:52,639 they think that they're going to be a per public discussion their own personal lives, 522 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,679 They're going to do a little cost benefit analysis and decide that it's not 523 00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:01,920 worth it. Right absolutely, who suffers. Who suffers. Mara suffers, 524 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:08,679 the families suffer, and the investigators on some level might suffer because there could 525 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,119 be information that they might be able to use to move this case forward. 526 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:17,480 That's a great point yep. In about a month here, February twenty twenty 527 00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:22,920 three, you'll have reached the nineteenth anniversary of Mara's disappearance. What are your 528 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,480 plans for that? Is there anything that you do to mark the day in 529 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:31,280 particular that's like just for you? No, I don't do anything just for 530 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,920 me. Actually, February ninth is a rollercoaster of emotion for me, but 531 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,800 I don't feel it until the next day because I have so much that I 532 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,039 have to get done. But what my family has done since the first year 533 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,159 is we go up to the scene of the accident. There used to be 534 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,880 this big tree there and there was a blue ribbon that my dad tied around 535 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,039 the tree and it had our missing poster up there, and we would spend 536 00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:02,119 about ten to fifteen minutes with supporter and locals that supported the cause and just 537 00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:08,360 say a quick prayer, have a moment of silence. And that has evolved 538 00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:14,440 into with the COVID restrictions and everything. We did it virtually a couple of 539 00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:19,440 times, and so I asked that people light a candle and share it on 540 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,400 social media so that we could essentially light the sky up formara, so that 541 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,159 works pretty well. And then now we're in a hybrid of both. My 542 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,199 family will go up to the site. The tree has been cut down, 543 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,079 but we still go to the site. We spend about ten minutes there. 544 00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,280 It's freezing cold in New Hampshire in February, so we don't spend a whole 545 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,960 lot of time there and we don't want to be disruptive to any of the 546 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,519 neighbors or anything like that. And we have candles, We have our moment 547 00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:50,320 of silence at seven thirty. Well we're doing that. People online can virtually 548 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:52,880 do the same thing and share in that moment with us. It's been really 549 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,960 great the last couple of years. We've had so much support from all over 550 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,039 the world. It's really heartwarming to see that. But this year we've rented 551 00:42:00,039 --> 00:42:05,199 out a lodge in the area so that people can come back and get warm 552 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,159 and have a chat with each other. And some of these people have never 553 00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:12,719 met each other in person or my family, so it gives a chance to 554 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,719 interact with some of these people, put a face to a name, and 555 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:22,000 it's been for building relationships that have lasted almost or almost two decades now, 556 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:25,639 and then you're also doing electronic billboards in Massachusetts in New Hampshire. Tell us 557 00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:31,400 about those. Yes, we recently had a volunteer reach out to some communications 558 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,440 departments in based out of Boston, and they asked whether there was any space 559 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:44,199 available and what the pricing was, and so we had multiple agencies offer space 560 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:50,639 for digital billboards all over Massachusetts, and there's a few in New Hampshire, 561 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,239 but the space is the space is more limited there. But yeah, I 562 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:59,559 mean there's over ten right now live with Mars face. Well, that's amazing. 563 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,719 Asking for tips about the case. If you know something, reach out 564 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,960 to the New Hampshire take Place. It's pretty cool. There's one right on 565 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:12,760 the main thoroughfare in ninety three north into Boston. You can't go into Boston 566 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:17,599 without seeing more. So that's pretty because you never know somebody might know something, 567 00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:22,159 will remember something exactly. Yeah, Julie, thank you so much for 568 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,800 joining us today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This 569 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,880 was great. I wish we had more time. We could talk forever about 570 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,599 this stuff. We'll have to do it again. Yeah, that's gonna do 571 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:35,760 it for this episode of Mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. 572 00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:51,280 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our 573 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,639 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 574 00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:01,199 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed 575 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:07,360 in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 576 00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:10,599 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders 577 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,559 on Facebook and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. 578 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,880 Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.