1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:08,039 By the late nineteen twenties he was already thinking about building a golf course, 2 00:00:08,279 --> 00:00:13,359 and he had already set his sights on the property that is now Augusta National 3 00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:19,199 Golf Club. And in thirty or thirty one he met Clifford Roberts and together 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:25,559 they formed a corporation to buy the property, and then he started the Masters 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,920 tournament. He did not particularly care for the title of the Masters. He 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,679 preferred the title Augusta National Invitational. I think he didn't like the Masters Yes, 7 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:39,799 because a it was pretentious and b While Bob would not be said to 8 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,520 be progressive in any way, shape or form, he certainly remember he had 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,039 a real strong sense of fairness, and I think even then he would have 10 00:00:48,119 --> 00:00:52,159 had something of a prescient sense of how tough it would be to name something 11 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:58,200 the Masters in the Deep South. Hi, this is Chet Hurwitz from Atlanta, 12 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,159 Georgia, and I play at Atlanta Country Club. This is Golf Smarter 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,799 number nine forty two, The Masters and a Bobby Jones history lesson through the 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,920 eyes and heart of his grandson, doctor Bob Jones. The fourth. This 15 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:19,599 is Golf Smarter sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help 16 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,640 you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred 17 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,439 Green. Welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast, Doctor Bob. Great to 18 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:33,040 be with you, Fred. As always, as always, it must be 19 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,920 April, doctor Bob Jones. The fourth is here and it's time for the 20 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,719 Masters. So we want a history lesson as always and love getting your perspective 21 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:49,959 on all things South in that era, the era, the area. Yeah, 22 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,200 and on the road. But before we do that, I gotta tell 23 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:00,959 you, so, we were supposed to get together and you would We had 24 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,159 been talking about this for what eight nine months of getting together When I came 25 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,360 down to Atlanta. I was doing a civil rights tour and we were going 26 00:02:08,439 --> 00:02:13,199 to get together and you had to be at it, just last minute stuff, 27 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,159 and we didn't get to do it. So this is the first time 28 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:16,759 we get to see each other and talk to each other since then. I'm 29 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,240 sorry we missed each other. Well, Fred, you have to understand the 30 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,319 only thing that had us miss each other. I mean, if it had 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,199 been anything other, well, I'll be honest about it, if it had 32 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,439 been anything other than having brain surgery to remove a benign tumor, that's the 33 00:02:31,479 --> 00:02:37,240 only thing that could have kept me from getting together with you. So they 34 00:02:37,319 --> 00:02:39,360 were in your mother in law's birthday in Florida and my mother in law's birthday 35 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:46,000 and Florida and crappy weather and crapy. We were hoping to play we were 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,680 going to play golf and the weather was yes, yes, so brain surgery, 37 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:54,599 mother in law and crappy weather. So and you're not kidding about those 38 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,560 things. So I'm glad to know that you're doing better, doing very well. 39 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,439 Thanks to a large extent, I'm doing very well. I was really 40 00:03:04,479 --> 00:03:08,400 appreciated the support of a mutual friend of ours, doctor Joe Parent So really 41 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:13,159 yep. I went back and looked at his book, texted, emailed him 42 00:03:13,159 --> 00:03:16,560 a couple of times. He gave me some good advice and just a nice 43 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:20,639 guy. Oh, I'm so glad I can make that introduction. Yeah, 44 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,759 me too. That's awesome. That's awesome. So while we were there, 45 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,120 we met up with a friend of my wife's who she actually went to high 46 00:03:29,159 --> 00:03:31,840 school with and was friend of a friend. You know, they weren't really 47 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:38,599 close, but he's a golf smarter listener, and then realized that my wife 48 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,400 was his friend from high school. And then Joanne's book came out back in 49 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,879 June. We talked to her about that. He and his wife read the 50 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:52,759 book and his wife really related to it. So we got together with this 51 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:55,439 couple while we were there, and he was telling me that one of his 52 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,960 regular playing partners belongs to the Atlanta Country Club, and one of his regular 53 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:09,039 playing partners is apparently a good friend of yours, Charlie Yates. That's right, 54 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,319 That's exactly right. I've known Charlie. Actually, you know, I 55 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,399 was thinking about that when you asked me that. I was trying to think 56 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:19,839 of how long I've known Charlie, and I think if you were to ask 57 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,959 us both, we are of the age where we really don't know how long 58 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:33,040 we've known each other. And Charlie is his father was for a long time 59 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:40,800 the oldest living member of Augusta National. His father, Charlie Yates, Yeslie 60 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:48,160 British. His father won the British Amateur in nineteen thirty eight and was also 61 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:56,160 a member of the Walker Cup team that year. Really outstanding, outstanding golfer 62 00:04:56,879 --> 00:05:01,920 and an incredible leader of philanthropy in the city of Atlanta. He was instrumental 63 00:05:01,959 --> 00:05:06,720 in the building of the Woodruff Arts Center here in Atlanta. He was also 64 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:15,600 very very prominent in the development of the Bobby Jones Scholarship Fund that funds in 65 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,519 exchange between Emory and the University of Saint Andrews in Scotland. His son, 66 00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:28,560 Charlie Junior, who is my dear friend, Charlie is. He would never 67 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:33,079 want me to say this, but Charlie is every bit is impactful I think 68 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:38,959 on our city, as was his father. He was very big in the 69 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:45,439 promotion of the YMCA here in Atlanta and also has had a huge interest in 70 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:54,079 the Jones Scholarship and also in the Gosh. He's also been active with the 71 00:05:54,120 --> 00:06:01,040 Atlanta Opera, which taking it from basically forgettable to being one of the top 72 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:06,920 ten companies in the United States. And not to mention that he just has 73 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,120 a heart of gold and has a good friend And unfortunately if he hears this 74 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,480 now, you know, he'll he'll get a big head and that he'll just 75 00:06:16,519 --> 00:06:20,800 be unlivable. But everybody really won't tell him great guy, great guy. 76 00:06:23,079 --> 00:06:27,879 Well, it's fascinating because you know, and we're going to get him on 77 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:35,319 the show at some point because this this history of homegrown Atlanta golfers between Bob 78 00:06:35,439 --> 00:06:43,279 Jones and Bobby Jones and Charlie Yates. But it was an era when amateur 79 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,920 play was far more important than professional golf. I mean, the majors that 80 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:56,000 Bobby Jones won he won as an amateur, he did and to it, 81 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,639 and he won the amateur championships. Well, that's correct, the amateur championships 82 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,360 were major championships, and really all the way up into the nineteen fifties, 83 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:14,360 amateur golf in many ways was kind of the equal to the professional game. 84 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,839 And that's partially because to a large degree, there just really wasn't money in 85 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:23,800 the professional game. In the amateur game, no excuse me, in the 86 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:28,120 professional professional game. Yeah, so there was really no inducement. I mean, 87 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,040 if you could make, you know, back in the nineteen forties fifties, 88 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,399 if you could make twenty thousand or thirty thousand dollars a year selling insurance, 89 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,879 why wouldn't you just do that and play golf on the amateur circuit then 90 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:48,439 become professional. And then around nineteen fifty eight nineteen sixty along came a guy 91 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:55,240 named Arnold Palmer, and all of a sudden there was enough money in the 92 00:07:55,279 --> 00:08:00,759 game to where anybody after that point, if you truly wanted to be competitive, 93 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,319 you had to consider turning pro to have your game at the sharp level 94 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,240 that it needed to be. But up until that time, and in fact, 95 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:13,759 up until that time, it was always customary to think of whoever won 96 00:08:13,959 --> 00:08:18,959 the US Amateur Championship as having been a major champions champion. That's right, 97 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:24,959 that's right. But also let's talk about the perfect storm of golf. Arnold 98 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,679 Palmer television. Oh, absolutely, absolutely right. That changes everything because his 99 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:41,159 charisma just explodes off the television, and Arnie's army is created because people now 100 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:46,279 can follow him all across the country the world by seeing him on television it 101 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,519 could. And then also you have to add one other thing into that mix 102 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,600 in terms of television and Arnold Palmer, and that is you have to add 103 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:01,799 in the Augusta National Golf Club added when Palmer was winning his first most of 104 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,840 his tournaments. Actually the Masters was telecast in black and white, but it 105 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:13,440 was the first time that people had the opportunity to actually see the place, 106 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,720 and it was also the first time they had the opportunity to see the drama 107 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:26,159 of the final four or five holes. Now, the downside to it, 108 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:30,960 back in the nineteen fifty eight, sixty sixty two. Those are the first 109 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:37,919 three times that Palmer and m sixty four when Palmer won. That is that 110 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,039 most of the excitement was already done by the time TV came on, because 111 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,799 they only covered from hole fourteen through eighteen, which means that Amen Corner never 112 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,799 even got seen. And that's where a lot of a lot of what Arnie 113 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,480 did was done on holes eleven, twelve, and thirteen. So yeah, 114 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:01,159 so I never even got seen until I don't think the game End Corner got 115 00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:09,840 telecast until the nineteen seventies. I think back to Charlie eight senior for a 116 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:16,120 moment he grew up. One of his heroes was Bobby Jones. Absolutely, 117 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,799 I mean this is what I was reading about. Oh. Absolutely. Charlie 118 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:24,639 used to always say that he used to love to slip under the fence at 119 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:28,759 Eastlake and go watch Bobby Jones play golf. And he said, what was 120 00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:33,679 really the most exciting thing was every now and then, my grandfather would invite 121 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:39,440 him into the clubhouse to give him what Charlie used to call that great elixir 122 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:45,360 of Atlanta, Coca cola. And he used to always say too, he 123 00:10:45,399 --> 00:10:52,440 said, you know, he made the discovery that the old saying was truly 124 00:10:54,159 --> 00:10:58,000 the case, and that is a man never stands so tall is when he 125 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,399 stoops to help a boy. And he said that Bub, as we called 126 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,039 my grandfather, would always give like little golf tips. Every now and then 127 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:09,679 he'd have an extra golf ball and he'd hand that. He'd hand that to 128 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,159 kids. And it wasn't just Charlie, I mean, you know, Charlie's 129 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:22,799 brother Dan also grew up there, and another Atlanta icon of business, Tom 130 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:30,120 Cousins, grew up in that area. We had great, great women golfers, 131 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:35,720 Alexa Sterling, who won the US Women's Amateur at the time when that 132 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,360 was the national championship of women's golf, and she won that, I believe 133 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:48,279 in nineteen fifteen and sixteen, and then I think the tournament wasn't held in 134 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,720 seventeen and eighteen because of World War One, and then she picked it up 135 00:11:54,759 --> 00:12:00,159 again by winning it again in nineteen nineteen, which is really sort of sad 136 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:07,159 because because had Alexa been able to play in a Women's Amateur in seventeen and 137 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:13,879 eighteen and had won five of them in a row, we would probably be 138 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,000 talking about her to this day. As one of the great women players to 139 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,759 ever play, but because of World War One, she's kind of been forgotten 140 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:26,519 and we've had a hard time because we've wanted at the Atlanta Athletic Club, 141 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,639 we've wanted to introduce Alexa for membership in the World Golf Hall of Fame, 142 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:39,559 but unfortunately, I think that two year gap from seventeen and eighteen it's going 143 00:12:39,639 --> 00:12:43,519 to make it just a little bit daunting. The thing that's interesting, though, 144 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:48,919 is that Alexa, my grandfather, another Atlanta named Perry Adare, and 145 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:56,000 a lady from Chicago named Elaine Rosenthal used to travel the United States during that 146 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,519 same two year period during the war, and they raised over a quarter of 147 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,639 a million for the war relief, so Alexa was not without her accomplishments. 148 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,720 She later moved to Canada and married a surgeon, I believe outside of Hamilton, 149 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,960 and that's where she lived for the remainder of her life. She did 150 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,240 return to Atlanta a couple of times. One was in nineteen fifty for the 151 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:24,240 Women's Women's Amateur when it was held at East Lake. My grandfather insisted on 152 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,480 driving down to the train station to pick her up, even though he had 153 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,320 to drive with a thing that allowed him to break and accelerate using his hand 154 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:37,360 because his legs were paralyzed. Wow. And then later she came back again 155 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:41,600 in nineteen seventy six when we hosted the US Open. So yes golf in 156 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:43,879 Atlanta, and you could, we could, We could do an entire hour 157 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:52,360 just on the great golfers male and female that have just been in the Atlanta 158 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,600 Era area, no question, Okay, And maybe next year that's what we're 159 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,200 going to do. But we're gonna we're gonna take a break right now. 160 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:07,440 But before we do, I need to apologize to every listeners who's listening to 161 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:13,720 our conversation on a speaker in their house. Maybe they're folding laundry or they're 162 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,399 doing the dishes, and you've said, Alexa so many times that their digital 163 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,799 assistants are going, what what are you asking me? What are you asking 164 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,879 me? So well, I apologize to that. But when we come back, 165 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,759 I have a challenge for you, and we're going to do that right 166 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:41,399 after this. So Bob, every year the last couple of years, you 167 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,159 come on the show, and I love having you on the week of the 168 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,759 Masters, to not talk about who's playing and who played and what they're scoring 169 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:54,840 is and what they have to do. But we talk about the creator of 170 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:01,320 the Masters, the creator of Augusta National, Bobby Jones, the only one 171 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:09,000 to ever win a true Grand Slam, the true Grand Slam. Sorry, 172 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,559 I blanked on those two words right there in one year. Bobby Jones was 173 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:20,039 an absolute gift to the game and to help put it on the map in 174 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:26,200 so many ways. And so I wanted to challenge you. And I never 175 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,720 do this. I never tell the person who I'm about to record a conversation 176 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,919 with what we're going to talk about, Like, yeah, I got a 177 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,039 couple questions, it's just going to be a casual conversation. But I thought 178 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,120 it would be fair to let you know ahead of time that this is what 179 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,919 I would like to do. And so I wanted to challenge you and say, 180 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:48,799 if you were to create a curriculum on Bobby Jones, and I don't 181 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:52,519 mean be a guest speaker for a class, I mean if you were to 182 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:58,159 do a semester course or more on Bobby Jones, what would it be, 183 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Where would you go, how would you break it up, what would be 184 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,200 the topics in the coverage. And so that's what I wanted to do for 185 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,879 this episode today, and I just put it out there to you. How 186 00:16:12,879 --> 00:16:17,200 do you start that? Where do you go? I think, well, 187 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:19,720 I have thought about it a bit. I mean the funny part is in 188 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:26,639 what department would you situate it? Would you would you situated in a history 189 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:33,120 department, would you situate it in an athletics department, would you situated in 190 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:38,200 a psychology department? You could probably cross reference at any one of those ways, 191 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:45,639 and possibly more. I think if I was to do a course on 192 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:51,519 my grandfather, I think the first thing I would want to do is situate 193 00:16:51,919 --> 00:17:00,360 my grandfather within his historical context. The first peace to that I would say 194 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:06,400 is this, you have to remember where it was that he was born and 195 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,920 how he came to be here. He was born, of course, on 196 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,640 Saint Patrick's Day of nineteen oh two, here in Atlanta, in a section 197 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:19,680 of Atlanta called Grant Park. But you know, we say that now nineteen 198 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:26,799 oh two, and we think of Atlanta as it is now, this big, 199 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,839 huge, bustling city. It's what now the sixth fifth or sixth largest 200 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,480 metropolitan area in the United States, and with the traffic to prove it. 201 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:47,160 But back then Atlanta was a terribly sleepy town. I mean, the city 202 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,079 was, as my dear friend Sid Matthew talked about in his great book Life 203 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:56,160 and Times of Bobby Jones, which was also a great documentary, It wasn't 204 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:03,880 even fifty years after the Civil War. And if you'll remember, the Civil 205 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:14,160 War was not exactly kind to Atlanta. Atlanta was absolutely destroyed during the Civil 206 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:22,119 War and it had been rebuilt. So he comes into that kind of that 207 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:30,400 post Civil war culture and the South back then at least certainly less so now, 208 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:37,680 But back then the South had a very strong inferiority complex about it. 209 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:44,759 It was generally considered to be grossly inferior to the much more sophisticated North. 210 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,599 Certainly in the golf world it was considered to be that way because you know, 211 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,240 most of the great golf courses in the Northeast were still very new. 212 00:18:55,319 --> 00:19:00,039 We don't realize it, but courses like Marion in w where the first US 213 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,359 Opened, was where he won his first US Open in nineteen twenty three. 214 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:10,000 These were all courses that were founded in eighteen ninety five, nineteen, in 215 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:17,079 the case of Inwood nineteen oh one, and they were all basically bent grass 216 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:22,440 greens and highly manicured. The South was played on very very rough Bermuda grass, 217 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,640 which was really slow, which is how they kind of which is how 218 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,839 the North viewed Southerners really slow, the Southern people in the South spoke differently. 219 00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:41,640 And then there was the fact that the South had lost a war and 220 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,640 it was and it had lost a war that had, whether we like to 221 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:52,720 admit it or not, had been fought over the whole question of whether one 222 00:19:52,839 --> 00:20:00,480 set of people can actually own another set of people. And so all of 223 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:07,880 that came together to kind of create this hothouse into which my grandfather was born. 224 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:14,400 Now, he came from a family that he came from a family where 225 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,519 his father was a lawyer, and a rather successful lawyer. He would represent 226 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,240 Georgia Power, which later became Southern Company. My grandfather would follow up with 227 00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:26,680 that, and when he was a lawyer, would actually serve on the Southern 228 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:33,559 Company board. My great grandfather and grandfather did some legal work for the Coca 229 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:41,240 Cola Company and they so they were very prominent in Atlanta business. But one 230 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,680 of the things that was really interesting is I think there were several events that 231 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:53,279 occurred that really affected some affected my grandfather and were very important and this is 232 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:59,839 part of the historical context. And I owe a debt of thanks to another 233 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,319 friend of mine who's a great golf writer, Steve Eubanks, who actually brought 234 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:07,400 this to my attention, and that was I believe in nineteen twelve, there 235 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:12,480 was a young girl who worked in a pencil factory here in Atlanta whose name 236 00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:21,319 was Mary Fagan, and Mary Fagan was murdered and a Jewish man named Leo 237 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:29,039 Frank was later arrested for that murder and tried, I think, tried and 238 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,319 convicted, but ultimately pardoned by the then governor of the state of Georgia. 239 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:41,079 And in Marietta or in Cobb County, which is where the Frank was jailed, 240 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:45,359 Frank was busted out of the jail and lynched and it was a terrified 241 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:52,799 The whole thing was just this nightmare experience. And shortly thereafter the Ku Klux 242 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:59,920 Klan went went and burned across on top of Stone Mountain, which is the 243 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,599 big, massive, thousands of feet high piece of granite that sits to the 244 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:11,480 northeast of the city of Atlanta. And interestingly enough, what that did was 245 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:18,359 it basically drove essentially the Jewish population of Atlanta, which at the time as 246 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,759 is now, but not to the degree it was back then. Drove that 247 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:29,160 just scattered the Jewish population of Atlanta all over the place to just get out 248 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,799 of to basically get out of dodge. But I think that really affected my 249 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:41,200 grandfather growing up as he did, because he always ended up having a real 250 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:48,400 sense of fairness and what was right, and that became very very important to 251 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,279 him. Interestingly enough, I think also one of the things that really went 252 00:22:53,359 --> 00:23:00,480 to influence him in that regard was the relationship that he developed with a sportswriter 253 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:06,319 for the Atlanta Journal. For the Atlanta Journal named Oscar Baine Keeler, who 254 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,079 was otherwise known as Obi Keeler. Ob. Even though he was a sportswriter 255 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:18,759 when he was with the Kansas City Star, he wrote a very compelling piece 256 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:23,640 on the sinking of the Titanic, and later when the whole Leo Frank and 257 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:32,960 Mary Fagan's situation came up, it was Ob Keeler was that wrote very very 258 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:41,720 supportive articles on behalf of Frank and really spoke out very very vocally about Frank's 259 00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:47,039 lynching, which could have placed Obe at some personal risk for doing that. 260 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,640 But I can't imagine that something that happened at that time would not have at 261 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:59,720 some point been a point of discussion between ob and my grandfather as they traveled 262 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:07,599 the Entry playing golf. So that's sort of the darker side I think of 263 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,039 the context in which my grandfather grew up. But it was also a time 264 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:19,000 two of strong families of Atlanta as a growing and booming kind of economy, 265 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:26,440 the Atlanta the seeds of what would later become the Atlanta Black business community was 266 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:33,119 being sewn back then, which became a very very powerful thing. So I 267 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,720 mean it was kind of it is, like anything else, a mixed bag. 268 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,480 But I think where I would start then in the curriculum of Bobby Jones 269 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,079 is getting him situated properly in his historical context, because I think unless you 270 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,720 do that, then the things that he does later in his life, I 271 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,119 don't think they quite have the weight that they should have. So that's where 272 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:03,799 it started interesting. During our tour, and again we had twenty six people 273 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:07,839 in our group, and this was a tour given by a gentleman who has 274 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,599 a company now for twenty years, and it's always been through the Jewish lens 275 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:18,119 of going through the South so as we were leaving Atlanta on our bus, 276 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,880 He's pointed out, make sure you check there. I see that it says 277 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,559 pencil factory. So it's still up. And we heard all about Leo Frank 278 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,200 and the large Jewish community that was there and is still there, the temple 279 00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:37,839 which is over two thousand families, which is a huge congregation. Absolutely, 280 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,240 and we heard many stories as we traveled through Birmingham, Selma, and Montgomery 281 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,359 of Jewish business owners in the South and how they had to deal with what 282 00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:56,480 was going on in the nineteen sixties. And you know, well again much 283 00:25:56,519 --> 00:26:03,519 later when we're talking about the civil rights movement versus Man's Patient and the Voting 284 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:06,920 Right Act in the eighteen sixties, right, fascinating. But yeah, I 285 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,079 know you mentioned emancipation. Think about it this way. My grandfather was born 286 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:17,720 fifty years after, fifty years after the Emancipation Proclamation, right, So that's 287 00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:22,519 how close you were. Yeah, yeah, which is our lifetime right now, 288 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,960 less than that. So we we have a perspective on fifty years, 289 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,640 which is like wow, because when I remember growing up thinking I was born 290 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,359 in nineteen fifty five and thinking, oh, World War Two was so long 291 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,839 ago. It was ten years, and now with this perspective of being someone 292 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,880 in my late sixties, it's like ten years is nothing. No, no, 293 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,400 it was just yesterday. Wow. All right, we're gonna take another 294 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,720 break. We'll be right back and go to section two of our curriculum on 295 00:26:53,799 --> 00:27:04,720 Bobby Jones with doctor Bob Jones. The fourth our curriculum starts with history. 296 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:11,960 You said it could it can dovetail between history, athletic and psychology departments. 297 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,839 But I think that the history, it kind of all falls under the umbrella 298 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,960 of history and criss crosses through it, no question, no question, you 299 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,359 know. And one of the things that anyone who studies history will tell you 300 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:37,400 is history is history is something that is like one see one coincidence that occurs 301 00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:44,039 after another, or a meaningful coincidence that occurs after another. However, I 302 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:47,799 always like to remind people and Fred, I'm going to see if you know 303 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,640 this, do you happen to know what the ancient Hebrew word for coincidence is 304 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:02,599 not be shared? No, no, there wasn't one. In the Old 305 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,240 Testament, or what we call the Old Testament. There is no word for 306 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:14,640 coincidence because it was believed that God's hand, God's providential hand was on every 307 00:28:14,839 --> 00:28:21,599 event of history, and I think in that sense you almost sort of see 308 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,640 that same kind of thing happen in Atlanta at the Atlanta Athletic Club in about 309 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,559 nineteen oh seven nineteen oh eight, when Jimmy Maiden went to be the pro 310 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:40,680 at I believe, Nassau Country Club on Long Island, and his brother Stuart 311 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:45,200 came to be the pro at the Atlanta Athletic Club's East Lake Country Club. 312 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:52,559 Stuart Maiden was an irascible man who also was possessed of probably one of the 313 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:59,319 most lyrical golf swings around. And when my grandfather, who at this time 314 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,880 was a five or six year old boy, started becoming interested in the game, 315 00:29:03,359 --> 00:29:07,799 Stuart was the one he followed around the golf course. And the way 316 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,200 my grandfather learned to play was simply by imitating the golf swing of Stuart Maiden. 317 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,480 Bub was six years old. He by the time he was ten years 318 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,440 old, he was breaking eighty on Eastlake, which at the time was one 319 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,240 of the longest golf courses in the United States, and he was doing it 320 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,720 with balls that were like forty compression and hickory shafted clubs, and I mean 321 00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:37,400 just with equipment that would fred you and I wouldn't even. We wouldn't even, 322 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:44,839 we wouldn't even want to hit a ball with those things. And in 323 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,480 nineteen when he was fourteen years old, in nineteen sixteen, pardoned my dog 324 00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:55,960 in the background, No, that's okay. In nineteen sixteen, when he 325 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:00,359 was fourteen years old, he went and played in the Georgia the first Georgia 326 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,079 State Amateur, which was held at Capital City Club in Brookhaven, and he 327 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,839 won it. And at that point he was invited by Georgia Dare to go 328 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:17,200 to Philadelphia to play in the United States Amateur with George's son, Perry, 329 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:22,119 who later became a good friend of my grandfather's. And that's how he started 330 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,039 playing in national championships. And he said the hardest transition, and this is 331 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:32,079 where the psychology kind of plays in in a way. He said the hardest 332 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:37,519 transition was from playing When he started playing in championships, they were just a 333 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,400 lark. He thought they were just so much fun and he would love just 334 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,119 getting out there and teeing it up and eating ice cream and hamburgers. But 335 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,519 he said, the better he got. All of a sudden, he said 336 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:53,559 there was a weight that started to come on to him, and there was 337 00:30:53,599 --> 00:31:00,759 a pressure and an expectation that started to come on to him about when are 338 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:03,519 you going to win a championship? And it took him a long time to 339 00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,920 do it. In fact, was that self imposed or that came from the 340 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000 press or both? Where did that both? I mean, ultimately all of 341 00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:17,400 that is self imposed. It is self imposed, but yes there were external 342 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,880 sources to it as well, and also you know you figure. In nineteen 343 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:26,240 twenty one he went overseas to the UK for the first time and playing in 344 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:32,240 the British Open at Saint Andrew's, he withdrew in the third round. He 345 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,839 ended up played pretty well in the first two rounds, shot forty six on 346 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,480 the opening nine of the third round double bogie the tenth hole, which many 347 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,519 years later would be named in his honor, and then took four shots in 348 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,079 hill bunker on the eleventh hole and picked up his ball and moved on to 349 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:56,240 the twelfth t withdrawing from the tournament. Matt Bernard Darwin would write later Darwin 350 00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:01,039 was the great English sportswriter for the London Times. Darwin would write later, 351 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,200 master Bobby Jones is just a boy and a rather ordinary boy at that and 352 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:13,279 that really stung him. You know, it's very funny. Five years later 353 00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:15,079 he would come back. By this time, of course, he'd been a 354 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:21,079 US Open champion and a US Amateur champion, and he would win the British 355 00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:28,759 the British Open at Royallythem and Saint Anne's and then defend successfully at Saint Andrew's 356 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:37,200 the next year. And so he learned in that interval how to get his 357 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:43,359 emotions under control, how to handle his expectations, how to handle the expectations 358 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,200 of others. I mean, learning how to play golf at a championship level 359 00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:54,799 is not an easy task, not an easy task. And here he was 360 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,279 doing this when he was twenty twenty one years old, attending Georgia Tech, 361 00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:07,240 attending Harvard and going to law school at Emory and getting married and starting a 362 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,279 family. So he was he always worked up, going to keep things in 363 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,559 balance, which wasn't always easy, you say, here he is nineteen twenty 364 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,400 nineteen, twenty twenty one years old. Then he learned how to put his 365 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:28,480 emotions under control. Now there weren't teams of people working with a golfer like 366 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:32,839 they are today. Now, how did he learn this? Where was his 367 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,480 source of education, Well, I think he had two. One is one 368 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:43,920 is from Obi Keeler, the sports for the journal. Ob used to accompany 369 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:50,640 my grandfather and virtually all of his tournaments. Ob Ob was a pretty interesting 370 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:57,440 character in and of himself. I'll tell you one time ob Obi had spent 371 00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:00,599 an evening in the company of a woman who shall we say was not his 372 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,279 wife, and the next day she said to him, Ob, you said 373 00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:07,679 you would write a poem about me, And he said, oh, that's 374 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,960 right, I did say this. And he sat down at the typewriter and 375 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,360 he batted out my typewriter's most ambitious to endure, insure your lasting fame. 376 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,360 But the liquor we had was vicious. And I cannot recall your name. 377 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,440 But in nineteen twenty love that. In nineteen twenty three, he had just 378 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:37,519 gotten into a playoff at inwood Well, just right across the bay from Kennedy 379 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:43,800 Airport now, and Bub was getting ready to go play a playoff against Bobby 380 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,639 Crookshank and Keeler came up to him and he said, Rubber Tire, because 381 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,519 that's what he called him. My grandfather's name, like mine, was Robert 382 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:58,639 Tyre. Jones, so Ob would call him rubber tire, and he said, 383 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:04,159 rubber tire. He said, you are the best damn golfer in the 384 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,960 world. And when you get that through your head, you're not going to 385 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,159 win one championship, You're going to win a bunch of them. And Bub 386 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,960 kind of I think that really startled Bub and he took that to heart and 387 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,239 he went out and won the playoff for his first US Open. But the 388 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,679 other lesson, I think that taught him about controlling emotion. He was a 389 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,159 notorious club thrower because he always believed he was only hurting no one but himself. 390 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:34,400 Of course, we could deal with that one for a while, but 391 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:39,039 we won't. But in nineteen twenty two at the US Open at Skokie and 392 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:45,320 Skokie in Chicago, he had lost his temper and he had thrown a club 393 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:51,760 that bounced off the ground and struck and struck a woman spectator in the leg 394 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,199 and busted her leg open. And when he returned to Atlanta, he received 395 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:01,320 a letter from George Herbert Walker, who was the president of the USGA, 396 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:09,559 and I believe the maternal grandfather of George Herbert Walker. Bush and George Walker's 397 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:14,280 letter to my grandfather said a lesson. Until you can learn to control your 398 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:21,760 temper, your applications for USGA championships will not be accepted. And at that 399 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:27,920 point my grandfather decided that he would never let anybody be able to tell how 400 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,519 he was playing, either good or bad, by his facial expression or his 401 00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:38,199 behavior. And that was the thing that really brought about the change. No 402 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,559 one has ever found that letter, to the point to where I'm almost wondering 403 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,599 if it is not an apocryphal story. But you know, it's like one 404 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:50,920 of the Italians have a phrase. I don't remember it in Italian, but 405 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,800 it translates to if it isn't true, it should be so you'll leave it 406 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,519 at that. So actually I just said it, so it must be true. 407 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:06,599 It must be true. You just said it. Oh Man, more 408 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,519 much more history post nineteen twenty one. We're going to pick that up right 409 00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:17,800 after this. All right, Well, this is not going to be one 410 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:23,000 of those shorter podcasts where there's sometimes I get to a point where a person 411 00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:25,360 I'm like, yeah, I think I got everything I need at here, 412 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,559 so we're going we're done. I got my commercials in I need to do 413 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:37,679 that. But there's just so much information about Bobby Jones that we love getting. 414 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:42,039 Even though it's secondhand, it's first hand. You know, there's only 415 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:47,079 one degree of separation here. And the amount of research that you've done, 416 00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:52,880 the amount of knowledge that you've acquired over the years about your grandfather is just 417 00:37:52,880 --> 00:38:00,119 a breathtaking I'm just I admire it so much. So thank you, thank 418 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:04,320 you for agreeing to do this. My plagurest mostly, but I want to 419 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,519 pick up. So now we've got his temper under control, We've got his 420 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:15,079 realization that he could be that good. Yes, and we do know that 421 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:21,039 he has the only Grand Slam, but let's get there. Yes, yes, 422 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,519 I think in order to get to the Grand Slam, there are two 423 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:30,480 There are two golf shots that are absolutely pivotal in getting him there, because 424 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:35,280 without these two golf shots, there is no Grand Slam. And we are 425 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,800 talking about Bobby Jones as maybe just this arcane figure from the past. The 426 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:46,159 first one was a shot that he hit on the second seventy second hole or 427 00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:51,559 excuse me, on the final hole of the playoff against Bobby Crookshank at Inwood 428 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:58,880 Country Club outside of New York City, and he was in the right rough 429 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,920 about two hundred yards out with a shot overwater to a tight pin to win 430 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:07,960 the United States Open, and he took out a two iron and out of 431 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:13,760 this light rough he struck this shot that ended up about four feet from the 432 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,039 hole. It was considered at the time to be the shot of the century. 433 00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:21,719 What most people don't realize is had he not won that United States Open, 434 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,440 he likely would have given up competitive golf at that point. Six years 435 00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:31,920 later, he came back about thirty five miles maybe forty miles from Enwood in 436 00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:37,880 Mamerineck, New York, at a new club called Wingfoot, where he had 437 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,840 a twelve foot putt. He had blown a five shot or three or five 438 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,960 shot. I think he blow a three shot lead or a five shot lead, 439 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:51,119 and he ended up with a twelve foot putt to force a playoff with 440 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:59,639 a guy named al Espinosa, and it was the most diabolical putt that probably 441 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:04,440 any his ever faced, and he rammed it into the back of the cup 442 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,840 to force the playoff. The next day he would go out and defeat Espinosa 443 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,679 by twenty three shots. It was the most lopsided victory in a playoff in 444 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:19,719 USGA Championship history. Had that shot not happened, it is likely that he 445 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,360 would not have gone overseas in nineteen thirty to play in the British Championships and 446 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,440 there would have been no Grand Slam. So had it not been for the 447 00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:32,519 shot at Inwood, he would not have even continued his playing career had it 448 00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:37,199 not been the shot at had it not been for the putt at Wingfoot, 449 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,719 he would not have had a Grand Slam. The Grand Slam started, of 450 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:50,440 course, at Saint Andrew's with the Amateur Championship, and then went to Hoylake 451 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:53,800 to Royal Liverpool where he won the Open, and then he came back and 452 00:40:53,840 --> 00:41:00,360 then won the third leg at Interlachen outside of Minneapol, where it was so 453 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:05,480 hot that somebody came up to him after one of the practice rounds and said, 454 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,440 Bob, did you hear it's going to be one hundred and six degrees 455 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,559 in the shade today? And bub looked at him and said, thank God, 456 00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:15,880 we don't have to play in the shade, and so he went out. 457 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,840 He went out to play in one of his practice rounds and at the 458 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,159 end of it he came back in and he went to take his tie off 459 00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:28,280 and he had sweated so profusely during the round they actually had to cut his 460 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,840 tie off with a pen knife. And if you see photos of him playing 461 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:37,960 in that us open at Interlock, and you'll notice he's wearing an open collared 462 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,320 shirt because he didn't want to take the chance of having having to ruin another 463 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:49,000 tie. And finally he wrapped up the Grand Slam at Marion, which is 464 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:55,559 where it began just fourteen years prior in nineteen sixteen. Bob always loved symmetry. 465 00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:59,440 He was an engineer at heart, and so he liked things to kind 466 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,639 of mathematically balanced, and so I think it always sort of appealed to him 467 00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:09,480 that it all ended where it began for him, as it were in national 468 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:15,679 championships. And then after that he retired, and the question was what was 469 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,960 he going to do? You know? He used to always be asked again 470 00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:21,840 by Obi Keeler. People would ask him what are you going to do when 471 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,000 you retire? And he would have Ob Keeler recite this poem that was written 472 00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:30,119 by Hilaire Belloc, and Ob would always say, if I ever become a 473 00:42:30,199 --> 00:42:34,039 rich man, or if ever I grow to be old, I will build 474 00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:37,320 myself a small thatched house to shelter me from the cold. I will hold 475 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,079 my house in the high wood, within a walk of the sea, and 476 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:44,679 the men who were boys when I was a boy will sit and drink with 477 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,800 me. Well, it's a very idyllic picture. But when you're Robert tire 478 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,840 Jones Junior and you really are something of a dynamo, it's not something that's 479 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:59,239 going to happen. By the late nineteen twenties, he was already thinking about 480 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:05,920 building a golf course, and he had already set his sights on the property 481 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,360 that is now Augusta National Golf Club. And in thirty or thirty one he 482 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,559 met Clifford Roberts. He was introduced by the mayor of Augusta at the time 483 00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:21,280 to cliff Roberts, and together they formed a corporation to buy the property. 484 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,039 That's a long that we could do a podcast just on the formation of Augusta 485 00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:34,000 National Golf Club. That's interesting enough as it is. And then he so 486 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:39,000 he started the Masters tournament along with Cliff. He did not particularly care for 487 00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:45,239 the title of the Masters. He thought it was extraordinarily pretentious. In fact, 488 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,960 for many many years he would privately refer to it as the so called 489 00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:55,840 Masters. He preferred the title Augusta National Invitational. I think he didn't like 490 00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:01,519 the Masters, yes, because a it was pretentious, and I think there 491 00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:08,199 was While Bub would not be said to be progressive in any way, shape 492 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,920 or form, he certainly remember he had a real strong sense of fairness, 493 00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:16,679 and I think even then he would have had something of a prescient sense of 494 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,800 how tough it would be to name something the Masters in the Deep South. 495 00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:28,239 So he preferred the title Augusta National Invitational. Finally, when Arnold Palmer won 496 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:34,199 his second Masters in nineteen sixty and did so so convincingly and so dramatically, 497 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,599 Bub finally gave in and said, I guess masters is probably the right term 498 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:45,760 to use for the tournament now of the game. He gave in. He 499 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,800 gave in, and he was right, because they were at that point the 500 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,079 masters of the game. Yeah, everybody who was anybody had won the tournament. 501 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:59,679 But so even then, by nineteen thirty, what nineteen thirty four was 502 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:05,400 the first tournament. By around nineteen forty, it was kind of like what 503 00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:10,079 else was there for him to do well? World War Two came along and 504 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:15,000 he enlisted in the army. They wanted him to play golf during the Army 505 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,199 like he did in World War One, and he said, I'm not interested 506 00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:24,320 in doing that. I want a position in action. And so he landed 507 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:31,039 on Normandy on Omaha Beach on d Day plus two when the beach was still 508 00:45:31,119 --> 00:45:37,800 under some fire, and he crossed the European continent. He started as a 509 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,159 captain and ended up as a lieutenant colonel, started in I believe, the 510 00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:46,119 Air Corps, and then went and was in Army intelligence for a long time 511 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:54,559 for the rest of the war. But then his life would take a terrible, 512 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,719 terrible turn immediately after the war. And for all that he had accomplished, 513 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,320 for all the books that he had written, for all the articles he 514 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,719 had written, the championships he had won, the degrees he had earned, 515 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:16,679 all of that, I think the true greatness of the man actually emerged after 516 00:46:17,199 --> 00:46:27,719 the Second World War when he ended up going through a health crisis that ended 517 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:35,199 up in a very catastrophic diagnosis. When he came back from the war, 518 00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:42,960 he noticed that he was having problems where occasionally a foot would start to turn 519 00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:47,400 under just a little bit would or he would scald his fingers on hot water 520 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:52,840 because he couldn't feel the temperature tingling at the very very tips of the fingers, 521 00:46:53,679 --> 00:46:57,960 and he couldn't quite figure out what it was. He had to go 522 00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:02,079 in for experimental series. Back then, you know, we didn't have any 523 00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:06,840 imaging that was like we have now, So if you wanted to see something, 524 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,000 you had to go in and look at it, and nobody could figure 525 00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:13,840 it out. And then, finally, I believe it was in nineteen fifty 526 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,719 or nineteen fifty two, he went to New York and he was given the 527 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,559 worst news he could possibly have received from doctor Houston Merritt, whose textbook on 528 00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:30,400 neurology is still the textbook on neurology, and doctor Merritt diagnosed him with a 529 00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:37,679 degenerative disorder of the spinal cord called syringo myelia. It's a terrible disease then, 530 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:45,000 and now we've not really gotten that far along much farther along in understanding 531 00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:52,320 it now. Even it was a disease that would eventually that would eventually wear 532 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:58,119 him, wear him down and put him with two canes and then later in 533 00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:01,920 a walker and a wheelchair and find lee in a bed. And yet throughout 534 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,760 it all while he had to deal with the anger of dealing with that and 535 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:15,199 the grief of losing his mobility, he never lost his dignity as a person, 536 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:22,079 and he bore the illness with such grace that I think, to a 537 00:48:22,199 --> 00:48:30,760 large extent, the way he bore that disease had him had contributes as much 538 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:37,119 to his legacy today as all of the championships that he won in the nineteen 539 00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:43,199 twenties and in nineteen thirty. He bore it, at least externally, with 540 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,840 some humor. For example, he used to love to go fishing, and 541 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,840 one of his cousins was a guy named Charlie Elliot, who for years was 542 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:59,280 the editor of Field and Stream magazine. And Charlie Elliott had a Boston whaler 543 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:06,440 for my grandfather because Boston whalers could not capsize, and he had a chair 544 00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:10,360 put in the middle of it that would swivel three hundred and sixty degrees and 545 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,519 they would take my grandfather from the dock and the dockhand would pick up my 546 00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:20,639 grandfather, carry him down to the boat, strap him in. There'd be 547 00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:23,880 a space for his tackle box on his right side, along with the space 548 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,000 for his Coca Cola bottle where he could put his coat, and then he 549 00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:31,960 could rest his fishing rod in a special attachment on the left hand side, 550 00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:37,199 and they would go spend hours out on the water fishing well. One time, 551 00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:45,320 the deckhand, who was an African American gentleman, had my grandfather carrying 552 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:51,000 him like a baby to bring him down to the chair on that boat, 553 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,519 and he turned and he looked at my grandfather and he said, mister Bob, 554 00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:58,239 do you mind if I ask you a question? And my grandfather said, 555 00:49:58,239 --> 00:49:59,480 no, no, no, what is it? And what are you 556 00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:00,639 going to say? Might drop you in the water if you say no? 557 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,400 But what are you gonna say? What are you gonna do? And so 558 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,199 he said no, no, I don't mind. So he said, well, 559 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,360 I just can't help but thinking, mister Bob, how a crippled up 560 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,639 old man like you won all them golf tournaments. And my grandfather just looked 561 00:50:15,639 --> 00:50:21,559 back up at him and said, well, it wasn't easy, and that 562 00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:25,280 was it. And I mean, I don't know about you, Fred, 563 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,880 but if I were in that situation, I don't think I would have made 564 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:37,679 such a joke and I would have been probably hurt angered. But the funny 565 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:44,119 part is there are two meanings to that. I mean it wasn't easy, 566 00:50:44,199 --> 00:50:47,440 because I mean, it would not be easy for that someone that physically challenged 567 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,800 to win a golf tournament. But when he said it wasn't easy, he 568 00:50:52,920 --> 00:51:01,320 was telling the truth. It wasn't easy, but he bore that illness with 569 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:07,559 incredible grace. You know. I'm often asked what was he like at home? 570 00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:15,360 And the best thing I can say about my grandfather is he was essentially 571 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,519 the same in private as he was in public. When you think about how 572 00:51:23,559 --> 00:51:30,599 many public figures there are who we put up on a pedestal, who we 573 00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:36,159 later find out maybe we shouldn't have put them up on that pedestal, Right, 574 00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:47,000 it's very rare to actually encounter somebody whose personal integrity and sense of humor 575 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:55,199 and natural humility would really equal his. There was a I'm trying to Paul 576 00:51:55,239 --> 00:52:00,760 Gallico wrote a book called Farewell to Sport. Gallico was a great sports writer, 577 00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:07,239 and he said in it it was just a scathing book about the all 578 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,360 the great athletes that Gallico had met throughout his career and all the clay feet 579 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:19,480 that they had, and his last chapter was reserved for the one person who 580 00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:29,079 he said embodied everything that was truly truly great in sports, and only one 581 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,719 that he had ever known, and that was Robert tire Jones Junior. Not 582 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:44,760 a bad legacy. Not a bad legacy. That was awesome, class dismissed, 583 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,920 Bob. That was great. I really enjoyed that. Thank you so 584 00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:57,519 much for sharing all that. Well, thank you for asking me, because 585 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:04,000 to be honest, as always, Fred, your interviews are never they're just 586 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:09,559 they're never just like cut and dried. They are all. You always ask 587 00:53:09,639 --> 00:53:15,760 me stuff that is so interesting and gets me thinking about things that I really 588 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,360 don't think about that much. And I appreciate. I appreciate what you do. 589 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:28,440 Thank you, and I appreciate you sharing because it's such a rich history 590 00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:35,639 that in history today is so important, and yet it's so hard to get 591 00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:40,000 because we're so caught up in the moment of everything that's bombarding us on all 592 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,039 different directions. But let's just remember what it's like to be on the golf 593 00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:49,119 course. Just play it one shot at a time and deal with the process, 594 00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:52,599 not the outcome. And when that ball's an less than an inch off 595 00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:57,119 the club face, your job is done. There you go, Bob, 596 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,360 great to talk to you again, you too, and next year maybe I'll 597 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:06,320 make it back to Atlanta. We're gonna do this interview live at some point. 598 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,920 We're gonna be Hi buddy. Well again, thank you for the kind 599 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,840 words, thank you for your continued support, Thanks for the history lesson. 600 00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:22,000 Thank you Fred. So early in the conversation with Doctor Bob, I mentioned 601 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,239 my wife's college friend, whom we met while in Atlanta last month. As 602 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:30,639 fate would have it, that's this week's Golf Smarter Ambassador. Thank you. 603 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:35,800 Cheed Hurwitz originally from Brookline, Massachusetts, and now plays at the Atlanta Country 604 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,360 Club. You too can be a Golf Smarter Ambassador, whether you went to 605 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,800 school with my wife or not. And once you do, you have the 606 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,960 choice of three great gifts that include the Tony Manzoni video of the Loss Fundamental, 607 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,000 a glove and glove storage compartment from redroostergolf dot com, the Premium Golf 608 00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:00,519 Club subscription service, and a box of robotically tested premium flight Pathgolf tees from 609 00:55:00,559 --> 00:55:06,880 flightpathcolf dot com. A te above all. Just send me an email and 610 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,679 I'll send you simple instructions on how to call our toll free listener line to 611 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,480 record your show opening, telling us where you're from, where you play and 612 00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:21,559 what number episode you are introducing. I'm happy to report that I played eighteen 613 00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:25,480 holes this weekend pain free. You may or may not be familiar with TENS, 614 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,400 which is the transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation. It's a compact, rechargeable unit 615 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:39,159 that has small pads connected either wirelessly or wired to specific spots you're having muscle 616 00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:44,440 pain. After discovering it a couple of weeks ago, I've been using it 617 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,880 multiple hours every day, which is okay, and the pain is significantly reduced 618 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,320 in my arm. It's miraculous. Actually. Anyway, last Saturday, I 619 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:58,480 woke up pain free, played eighteen holes and even after the round, the 620 00:55:58,559 --> 00:56:01,719 pain was minimal. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I'm meeting 621 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:06,800 with another doctor this week to see what my other options are moving forward. 622 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,360 But my goal is to be one hundred percent ready for our golf Smarter Royal 623 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:16,039 adventure to Northern Ireland this July. I really want to play golf and hang 624 00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:20,559 out with you for a week. You know, I've never played Northern Ireland 625 00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:24,559 before and this is a total bucket list opportunity for me. Hopefully it is 626 00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:30,360 for you too. But even if you've already played there before. Please join 627 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:35,679 me because I'll need some local knowledge again. The trip is July two through 628 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:40,280 nine, twenty twenty four, and we have five rounds that include the number 629 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:45,079 one course in the world, Royal County Downs, the host of the twenty 630 00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:50,119 twenty five Open Championship, Royal port Rush, one of the most beautiful courses 631 00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:53,960 you'll ever see at Ardglass, and we'll even play a parkland course with the 632 00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:00,519 oldest clubhouse in the world, Royal Belfast. I've partnered up with TMO Golf 633 00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:04,880 and we only have room for two foursomes, but the clock is ticking. 634 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,039 You can get the full itinerary end pricing at TMI golf dot com slash golf 635 00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:16,320 smarter. That's TMI golf dot com slash golf Smarter. And let me just 636 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:22,159 add that I completely understand if you can't make this trip happen because I sprung 637 00:57:22,199 --> 00:57:27,599 it on you so late. But fear not, I've been having additional conversations 638 00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:32,000 with Ta Fox at TMI Golf and here's what we're talking about for small golf 639 00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:37,920 groups coming up in the future. How about a couple's trip to Portugal. 640 00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:42,320 Now, my wife, who doesn't play golf, will host others who don't 641 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:47,239 during our three rounds over this nine day tour of beautiful Portugal. The next 642 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,440 spring, I want to go with you to play the Robert Trent Jones Trail 643 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:58,039 in Alabama. And how about in twenty twenty six we check off another bucket 644 00:57:58,039 --> 00:58:02,960 list item with a golf adventure to New Zealand. Yeah, and if you 645 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,960 live near there or there, join us. I'll leave a link in the 646 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:12,920 show notes and about the show notes. We're now using AI provided by our 647 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,360 recording platform Riverside FM to generate the summary and takeaways for each new episode, 648 00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:23,320 so this way you can review what we're discussing before, or give yourself a 649 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:30,679 recap after listening to this episode Now This Friday is part four of our annual 650 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:35,079 series with the late Tony Manzoni. Since Tony passed away in twenty eighteen, 651 00:58:35,119 --> 00:58:38,360 we've been playing select episodes each year to get back into playing shape for spring. 652 00:58:39,079 --> 00:58:45,280 What's different this year is that we're playing every episode in order that we 653 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,440 did with Tony between twenty ten and his final appearance in June of twenty seventeen. 654 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:57,440 This week's episode is called Stop Topping the Ball Forever. Now Chances are. 655 00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:02,199 You've probably never heard this episod because it was a member's only show in 656 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:07,920 April of twenty twelve, and this is the first time it's being shared publicly. 657 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,920 So to make sure you're clear with this, Golf Smarter Mulligins is no 658 00:59:12,039 --> 00:59:16,039 longer a separate podcast that you need to find now. It's included in this 659 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:22,159 free Golf Smarter subscription and is released every Friday. Over the years, one 660 00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:29,719 thing that's been consistent with this podcast is that listeners golfers around the world enjoy 661 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:35,239 going back into our archives to hear valuable conversations again and again. That's why 662 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,000 we now publish Golf Smarter twice each week. Tuesdays are a brand new episode, 663 00:59:39,159 --> 00:59:44,320 and on Friday we open the vault to bring you game improvement interviews that 664 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:47,559 are just as valuable today as they were the first time around. If you 665 00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:52,199 have any questions, comments, or suggestions for upcoming episodes, or need more 666 00:59:52,199 --> 00:59:57,599 information and want to discuss our royal adventure this July, please write to Golf 667 00:59:57,639 --> 01:00:02,960 Smarter podcast at gmail dot com or click on the Hayfred button when you visit 668 01:00:04,079 --> 01:00:08,039 Gulfsmarter dot com.