WEBVTT

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Hello everyone. I'm Sarah Cody and
this is Parenting Beyond the Headlines. I'm

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joined by my co host Amy Alamar, who is holding down the fort on

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the West Coast during this you know, contin continually crazy time. Yeah,

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Hi, Sarah, how are you
doing today? I'm all right, you

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well, I'm okay, and I
am in the midst of our topic today.

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So we wanted to talk today about, you know, kids going back

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to school. My own children are
doing it. I'm working with the school

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here in San Francisco. I'm doing
it as an educator, and I'm noticing

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this, like, you know,
we've heard it in the news, but

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I'm seeing it on a very personal
level, this need for the social emotional

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connection. Like kids have missed out
on tons of academics, but they are

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just craving and uncertain in how they
approach their social interactions. And it's not

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always just like friends, right,
but it's like how do we talk to

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teachers? How do we be right
with others? It's sort of exhausting.

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Yeah, my son is actually going
to the prom tomorrow night, and I'm

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like so excited. And I think
part of the reason I'm excited is because

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it's been this crazy time he has
been doing things like that, and it

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feels normal, it feels exciting,
it feels great. Yeah, you have

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an expert, amy, who you're
going to introduce, who's going to touch

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on all of this. I'm so
glad. So I've worked with Donovan Taylor

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Hall. He is a youth advocate
and educator, and I've worked with him

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in a variety of ways. He
is just amazing with kids and most importantly,

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amazing at teaching them social emotional skills. Thank you, dono fan for

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joining us today. I'm so happy
to be here. I feel really honored

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that y'all would want to listen to
me, because this is all I want

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to talk about. So thanks for
having me. I really appreciate it.

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Yeah, why don't you start by
just kind of setting the scene, like,

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how are kids doing? I know, like on a personal level,

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I'm overwhelmed, but I'm like,
like Sarah, like so ready for my

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kids to be part of it,
right, So talk to us about what

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you're seeing with kids. So,
with my focus on social, emotional and

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personal development of kids, I've been
doing this work for like ten years and

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so I've always been focused on how
kids are feeling and I think that the

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anxiety that a lot of parents are
feeling and teachers are feeling about right now

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is really real and really valid because
no kids have been through this before,

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and the people who are making decisions
and the people who are in charge of

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what's happening with kids have not been
through this experience before as well, And

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so I think a lot of people, especially the ones who want the best

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for kids, are worried and feeling
really anxious around how do we support kids

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and something that we haven't even been
through, And so the timing of this

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feels really it feels really important because
there is this big focus on social emotional

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learning, but it seems like they
need that more than ever right now,

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because even kids recognize the importance of
school and the importance of socializing. So

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some of my boys who just literally
counting down the minutes till the day was

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over to leave school, right are
some of the same kids who are saying

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I wish school was open, like
just open again. I don't care,

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I won't complain anymore. I just
want to be there. And even if

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kids can't articulate why they want to
be there, I think it's just missing

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that structure and missing being around people, and even if it was tough,

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I think having to be away from
that has been really really hard for a

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lot of kids. Is it both
though? Are you seeing both that?

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Yes, there's this underlying excitement and
this yearning to return to normal and do

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things like the prom like I mentioned, But then we're also hearing about re

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entry anxiety and these kids are so
used to being on their phone, not

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taking risks, necessarily being in their
rooms. So are you seeing almost like

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a push and pull of emotions here? Yeah, absolutely, and oftentimes in

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the same person. I think that
one of the things I've been looking at

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is how school helps really inform kids. Identity helps really give them a structure

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and kind of a container for who
am I becoming and who am I?

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And so to take that away suddenly
a lot of kids are left with really

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not understanding who they are and really
not knowing like how people are going to

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perceive them and how things are going
to be. I just went back to

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campus for the first time and saw
five of my students who I've been working

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with all year, and I'm like, you know, I love my students,

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and I'm all about the relationship building
and it was so awkward. All

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of us just stood there and we
were like, I don't know what to

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do. And so I think that
that anxiety is very real, and I

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think that kids feel a lot of
conflict, just like adults do, around

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going back, wanting to be with
their friends and with their classmates, but

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also like, what is it going
to be? Like? What are people

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going to think of me? So
much has happened over this time? How

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am I going to show up with
the mental health you know that I've been

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dealing with over the past. How
long this has been. I think that

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there's a lot of both, and
I also think that it can shift back

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and forth between being excited and being
really scared. What do we do about

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that to help them? And to
kind of or do we not? Is

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this a growth experience that they figure
out what is the parents' role supposed to

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be right now? I thought a
lot about this question just in general,

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around not only parents, but just
teachers, and I have some thoughts that

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I want to share. And I
do want to recognize that I'm not a

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parent, which is super important because
I realized that I don't have the same

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perspective as them. I know how
I feel about my students, and so

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I can't even imagine the anxiety and
the worry that a parent would feel about

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their own child because I was losing
sleep thinking about my students having to miss

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out on their eighth grade at the
end of it. So I want to

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share some ideas, just some things
that I've been thinking about, but also

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some stuff that I've been talking to
kids about, because I've been asking kids

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these questions, what can we do
to support you? How can we help

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you? And I'd be happy to
share some of these ideas. First of

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all, I think one of the
biggest things is to be aware of how

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you're showing up for kids, how
you're showing up for kids. This because

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I've heard a mixture of both from
kids, where there are kids whose parents

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are putting a lot of their own
anxieties on them, which is like,

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this is going to be hard and
you're going to be upset and you're not

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going to know what to do,
and I'm worried about you, and that

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really freaks kids out. But then
there's the other one, which is kind

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of like the rose colored glasses,
which it's like this is going to be

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fine, and you've got this and
you're a champ and don't worry. It's

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gonna be great, right. And
so I think that just being aware of

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how you're showing up first is really
important, because even though you know having

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positive, high expectations for kids is
good, it can still put a lot

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of pressure on kids where it's like, Okay, well what if I don't

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feel great? You know what if
I go back to school, my friends

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are not the same people and they're
not hanging out with me, or I

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don't have relationships with my teachers.
And so I think what's really important is

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to first be aware of how you're
showing up for your kids, and then

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also to listen to them, to
listen to them and create safety for how

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they're feeling. Something that I've seen
with kids a lot, even before this

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happened, is adults trivilizing or minimalizing
their feelings and their experiences. And I

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this connects back to what I was
saying earlier. We haven't been through this.

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We don't know what this is like, and so for us to tell

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kids that shouldn't matter or don't worry
about that, it kind of takes away

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from the fact that they're the ones
going through this, and we have our

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own anxieties and fears as well,
But it's really important to listen to them

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and to validate how they have to
feel or how they're feeling, versus trying

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to fix everything right away, trying
to jump in and offer and offer and

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offer versus just listening. You know. One of the things we've talked about

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before, and I think it's important
to highlight because it tags onto what you're

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saying, Donovan, is this idea
that adults need to process their emotions and

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adult appropriate ways. So well,
it's it's good to show you're vulnerable to

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your kids and to share that maybe
you are concerned or anxious, but process

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it, you know, with a
partner, a spouse, a friend,

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a therapist, a coach, whatever
it is, you know, because you

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can't Like, I love the way
you say how you show up for your

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kids, but it's also what are
you putting on your like what are they

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taking to school with them? Like, oh, now I need to worry

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about who I'm sitting with a lunch
because mom said I need to worry about,

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you know, my friend groups,
as if they didn't have that concern

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already. So I just wanted to
underscore that because I think that's something I

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can fall victim too. Oh my
gosh, I ask about lunch and I

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shouldn't that terrible for that lone Jay
shouldn't do it. We want to know,

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we want to know. It's it's
so tough, and that's that's an

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interesting position. I've had to be
able to work with kids as an adult

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who cares about them that's not their
parents, because I can help them by

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listening to that and then kind of
framing it and like why are they doing

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that? Like why are your parents? And like, well, because they

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care, And I'm like, yeah, you know, but it's tough sometimes

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in the moment. And I think
too that even though we may not be

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thinking about we're thinking a lot about
the social emotional learning. I think kids

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are really worried about their education.
I think kids are really worried about falling

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behind, especially because so much of
our kids identity comes from school. Whether

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or not that's a good things,
that's a different conversation, I think.

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But people get really anxious around how
am I going to be with my grades?

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How am I going to catch up? On top of how am I

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going to be with my friends and
people as well? You know, and

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Donovan I know you do a lot
of work on identity with kids, so

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this is key and something we haven't
really touched on a lot, Sarah.

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But you know, kids do define
themselves through their school, right, so

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whether they're a good academic student or
what sport they play. But you're right,

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that play such a huge part,
and it's been missing for the most

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part, even if they've been participating
in a hybrid version of school, like

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it's changed certainly, and it's how
they do define at least part of their

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identity, if not most of their
identities. So I appreciate you bringing that

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up. I wonder if you want
to speak a little bit more about that.

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Yeah. I mean one of the
biggest things that I think plays into

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my work and really informs the work
I do with kids in general, is

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separating their identity from their grades and
separating their identity from their education. Because

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when kids are connecting their identity to
their grades, that's how they're becoming aware

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of like what do I deserve?
How am I valued? Which leads into

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am I safe? Right if I
don't. I had a kid told me,

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tell me who is really really intelligent? He told me that he thinks

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his teacher doesn't like him because it's
grade is bad, and I just remember

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being like, that's not really how
that works, but like people aren't telling

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kids that, and so if you
don't have teachers who are explicitly saying that

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to you, that's what kids kind
of go through the system thinking, which

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is if I have good grades,
people will be proud of me and value

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me, right, and then I'm
safe. Or if I don't have good

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grades, people aren't going to value
me, and then I have to protect

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myself, which is where we see
a lot of those behaviors come out of

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pushing away and separating because it's around
their grades. And so I think when

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kids coming back, it's like,
how am I going to live up to

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these expectations right of not only like
making friends and being like a social person,

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but also catching up and being motivated, you know, to do my

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work. Because something else I think
parents and teachers should recognize is that not

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only were kids asked to you know, or had to do school online,

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they had to regulate themselves. They
had to learn how to send emails as

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a form of communication, thing had
to motivate themselves. If I was a

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kid during this, I would have
had a teacher come to my house and

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pull me out of bed because I
wouldn't have done it. I know I

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wouldn't have done it. Yeah,
it was very hard. We had some

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of that in this house. You
know. We we have a frequent guest

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on our show, doctor Alicia Farrell. She's a cognitive psychologist, and we

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talked with her a few weeks ago, months ago, sort of a more

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you know, when we were in
the heart of the pandemic more and about

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the kids being in their rooms and
on the phones all the time, and

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those sorts of issues. And one
thing she did say towards the end of

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our conversation which surprised me, was
that this hasn't all been doom and gloom

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for kids, even though there's been
certainly a lot of challenges, that there

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are aspects of this that are teaching
them grit and resilience and that they can

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get through the strangest of times.
Are you finding that too, and do

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you think that that is you know, a gift that's kind of a corny

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word, but you know, a
you know, a benefit of this difficult

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time. Yeah. I think that
people often say that kids are really resilient,

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and I don't push back on that
because I believe it's true. But

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I also think it's because they don't
have a lot of choice, right,

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Like they're not making decisions in their
lives. They really allow them to bypass

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things like that that they have to
get through. So kids couldn't be like,

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no, I'm not doing this.
They had to do it, and

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they had to get through it.
So sometimes they also don't have the language

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to articulate that they need support or
help, and so people are like,

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well, for me as a kid, when my dad passed away when I

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was younger, I didn't know how
to ask for support, and I acted,

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you know, like I'm supposed to. I got good grades and stuff,

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and that led my mom to think
that I was okay, But I

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just did know. People kept saying, well, he's resilient, he's resilient.

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I just didn't know what was happening
to me, and I didn't know

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how to ask for help. But
I have seen, especially with my middle

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schoolers, just championing them for themselves, really having to recognize that this is

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a position I'm in and I have
to step up. I think that the

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youth should be celebrated, no matter
what their grades are. For what they

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had to go through, because again, none of us have been through this

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before. And I think when kids
look back, I say this a lot.

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Actually. I think when kids,
the kids who went through this are

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adults and they look back, they're
not going to talk about the assignments.

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They're not going to talk about their
learning. They're going to talk about how

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they felt and how they were treated
right by their teachers and by their families

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and either the pressure expectations that were
put on them or the grace and the

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compassion that was put on them.
And so I think when going back to

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being aware of how we're showing up
for them, I also think it's important

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that we manage like we manage our
expectations and our anxieties, because they are

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hyper aware of the fact that there's
this big conversation going on in the world

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around how do we support kids,
and they're not in it. You know.

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I think more about you because we
had an interesting pre podcast discussion with

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you. It was funny you were
kind of trying to name what you do

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and you were saying, I'm not
an educator, I'm not a coach,

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Like, what is it exactly you
do and how do you work with kids.

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For me, I just I learned
a lot about what was missing from

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education, or it was missing from
my development as a person through my own

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experiences and own struggles because I was
a kid that did I got good grades,

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and I had friends, and I
didn't get in trouble in school and

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things like that, but I had
a really negative self perception of myself and

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that led into on top of like
trauma that happened to me, like losing

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a lot of people in my life
as a kid, not having the access

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or support or the ability to feel
safe led into a lot of just really

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intense struggles for me as a child
and a young person. And I have

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made it a commitment and my passion
and mission or whatever I want to call

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it. It just feels like this
is what I'm supposed to do to really

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create opportunities for kids to be seen
and empowered and respected, and for kids

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to see themselves and to empower themselves
and feel respected. But what I'm realizing

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is that the only really outlet we
have to talk about kids at school.

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I mean, when you think about
how people address kids, a lot of

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times it's like the first thing you
ask is how school, And there's so

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much more happening to them. So
the work I do with middle schoolers is

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because I realize it through talking to
adults. So many adults would have these

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really negative reactions to middle school,
whether it was like them saying really mean

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things about middle schoolers or them reflecting
back their own experience of how they felt

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because it's a really awkward time.
And what I'm looking at is, you

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know, they're hyper focused on who
they are as people, and why are

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we not talking to them about that? Why are we not creating spaces that

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is not connected to grades like that. It doesn't have to be about their

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grades, but just about how they're
feeling and how they're developing and really connecting

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to their humanity. And so I'm
not a traditional teacher in a sense that

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I didn't go to school for teaching, but I've been doing positive development and

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teaching for the past ten years,
which allows me to focus on the full

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self, and it allows me to
focus on you know, kids, hearts

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and their spirits. And I am
leaving teaching because I don't want to talk

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about grades. I'm just over it. I don't want to do it.

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There's enough people, there's enough conversations
happening about grades and even seeing social emotional

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learning starting to get incorporated in the
ways that they do it. It's it

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feels almost like oppression sometimes, where
it's like how well do they listen to

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directions and how well do they,
like, you know, collaborate with each

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other. It it still feels a
little weird to me. And so my

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dream has always been to speak to
kids, to teach them the skills that

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I feel and have seen through you
know, my research into educational psychology,

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and it's a positive psychology and transformative
education. What skills they need to build

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a positive relationship with themselves because that
is a skill that will translate and follow

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them through the rest of their lives. How they view themselves, how they

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treat themselves, how they talk about
their growth, how they talk about their

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education. Those things have massive impacts
on who they end up being. Then

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I want to talk to them about
it. And so I'm leaving teaching and

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I'm going into speaking, but also
content creation for kids because I want to

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do like I want to have a
TV show where kids can access it.

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The kids are watching so many people
online. There are so many people YouTubers,

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influencers, and kids are watching and
absorbing, and I just feel like

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there's not enough people who are directly
talking to kids and directly talking to them

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about positive things. It almost sounds
like you're seeing how the world has changed,

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You're seeing how kids are reached today, and that you want to use

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those avenues to continue to reach them
rather than necessarily the traditional way That might

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work for some people, but I
think it's clever of you to be trying

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to think of a different way to
reach kids in the way that they will

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respond to. I mean, it's
because they think I'm funny. Middle schoolers

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think I'm funny, which is a
huge victory for me. That makes teaching

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so much easier because it's like a
show. So I have some kids who

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my one period, which is just
such a funny period because we're always joking.

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They come to my class ten minutes
early and I like let them in.

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I'm like, what are y'all doing, and like we just don't want

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to miss anything, And I'm like, ah, So you can combine like

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humor, and you can combine learning
together and fun experience. You know,

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that must feel so good. And
we all remember those teachers that touched our

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lives in that way. Because we
enjoyed being in their classroom. We laughed,

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we learned, you know, so
that must feel really good to get

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that response. I mean, I
love it. They had to switch teaching

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positions. As a long story,
but I had to leave my teaching positions

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to take over the art position at
my school because our art teacher left and

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they needed someone the kids knew.
And I took it over, but I

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had to do an I had to
do like an interview and I had to

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do a lesson for the kids.
But they had already known me for two

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years and so they were just really
really hyped to celebrate me as a teacher.

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And they gave me some feedback and
one kid said he can teach us

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anything. We wouldn't care because we
feel safe with him. And I was

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like, oh, oh, my
heart. But I think that that speaks

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a lot about what education and teaching
could be. When kids feel safe and

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kids feel seen and they feel respected, then it's not about their identity right

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Then it's about learning. Then it's
about expanding and growing versus seeking safety and

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seeking identity in school, which is
what kids are looking for. It's what

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adult it's what everyone is looking for. Rights that is a great note to

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kind of wrap up on. I
mean, that really is what we're talking

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about. And I am so grateful
to you for your work. Donovan.

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I know that you are all over
social media. Do you want to share

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your what tags? Yeah? So
I mean this has been This has been

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like the kind of joke because before
it was my students, it was my

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friends. I put all this love
and energy into my friends when I was

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younger. And the name is Dono
friend, um, which is like you

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know, a mister Rogers, Dona
to science guy. Like I want to

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have my own things, so donal
friend onto everything, So YouTube, TikTok,

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Instagram, d O n O f
R I E n D Dono friend

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and maybe your TV show right there. Yeah, what I'm saying it is

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perfect. Yeah. And what I
like is sometimes the kids will slip up

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and call me that. Well that's
all right, mister Donovan. I was

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like, yeah, I like Dona
Friend. I like that one better.

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So um and just like a you
know, a shameless plug. I While

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I'm doing this content creation, I'm
also doing youth coaching and I'm going to

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be doing some youth groups as well, and so on all of those websites,

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especially TikTok and Instagram. There is
links to calendar. If you want

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to have a conversation about how I
could support you and your family or your

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child, or if you're a teacher
who wants to talk about bringing this type

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of education into your room, please
feel free to reach out. And yeah,

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thank you for having me. This
is really nice. Yea literally just

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followed you while we were talking,
and Holda follows you on instaff. Yeah,

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I got which is wild? Which
is wild? They got me a

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laptop two to continue my editing stuff
for kids, so I'm really excited.

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That's awesome. Well, thank you
so much for spending time with us.

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We really appreciate it. And listener, we always appreciate you hanging out with

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us too, especially during this very
challenging time. You can always find Amy

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and myself on social media too.
I'm at Sarah friend. No, I

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wish I was quite. I think
it's so cool that I wish I wise,

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but I'm not. It's Sarah Cody
media and Amy. You chime in

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him that Amy Alamar and thank you
again for joining us, and please reach

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out, let us know what topics
you want to cover and have a fantastic

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day. Take care of everyone,