1 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,000 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Drushinsky, 2 00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:23,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,800 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:28,079 --> 00:00:31,280 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,600 premium version of our website as well. So excited to be joined once again 6 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,119 today by Brad Wilcox, who is out with a new book on February thirteenth 7 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,679 called Get Married, Why Americans Must defy the elites, forge strong families, 8 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,799 and save civilization. Brad, thank you so much for coming back on the 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,960 show and congratulations on the book. So good to be with you again Emily 10 00:00:54,119 --> 00:00:57,159 today. Bret, I don't know if I've ever asked you this question, 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,640 but it occurs to me. I'm curious how your career ended up going in 12 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:06,400 the direction of family studies, of studying marriage so closely to the point where 13 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,760 now you've devoted an entire books length to this topic, and the trends in 14 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:15,040 not just the last you know, a couple of years, but you know 15 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:19,359 much longer time period than that. How did your career end up in going 16 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,239 in this direction, Brad, Yeah, it's a good question. So I 17 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,439 was raised by a single mom in the seventies and eighties. I talked about 18 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:30,359 that kind of in the book you Know about kind of most of my friends 19 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:36,439 growing up were from divorced homes, either their parents got divorced before we met 20 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:40,560 or after we met. Although my actually my dad died when I was three, 21 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,959 so my kind of route to single parent was a bit different. And 22 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,159 then in college, the you Reachie Virginia, I was here as an undergraduate 23 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,200 as well, kind of had the sense that, as it's kind of trying 24 00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:53,359 to make sense of, you know, growing up without a dad, that 25 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:59,159 the marriage is and institution that connected men on average, you know, to 26 00:01:59,239 --> 00:02:05,040 their kids. And I had some professors who were kind of unusual and challenging 27 00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:07,280 and they helped me kind of, you know, reach that conclusion as well. 28 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,000 So and then that led me to kind of study family and religion and 29 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,159 culture at Princeton and sociology and then right since then on sort of the nexus 30 00:02:17,159 --> 00:02:22,840 between family, culture, religion, and the welfare of kids and adults. 31 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,560 But I shall also say too that when I kind of first got into this 32 00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:29,719 business, Emily of kind of researching families. I was most concerned about the 33 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:34,199 way in which are the ways in which strong marriages, stable families are good 34 00:02:34,199 --> 00:02:38,560 for children. And we have obviously a great book out for mosse Kearny on 35 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,840 the two parent privilege, just out a few months ago that kind of goes 36 00:02:40,879 --> 00:02:44,879 into some detail on this theme, and I address it to in my new 37 00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:47,520 book. But beyond that, I've been talking to a lot of UVA students, 38 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:52,199 especially younger women, and they're concerned about their prospects, you know, 39 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,240 for dating, for finding guys who are commitment interested, commitment worthy, and 40 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,960 even more so who are marriageable. And I've just been kind of getting this 41 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,599 sense that young adults today are going to face a lot of challenges finding a 42 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:07,439 spouse and getting married. In fact, in the book, I asked me 43 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,759 that about one in three young adults today in their twenties will never marry. 44 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:15,240 You could have never been at this place, Emily, where so many people 45 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,520 in America, so many adults are not going to be, you know, 46 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,479 walking down the aisle to put a ring on it. So this book is 47 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,479 really directed more towards the sort of adults and marriage discussion and less on the 48 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:31,039 kids and marriage discussion as a consequence of sort of this newer reality we're seeing 49 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:35,800 with the young adults today. And you know, it sounds so obvious to 50 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,520 a lot of people, especially people who are from stable communities that have high 51 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:44,719 marriage rates load divorce rates. But what you do in this book, and 52 00:03:44,879 --> 00:03:46,080 you know, again you've been doing this for years, which you mentioned. 53 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,039 You're the head of the National Marriage Project at UVA at University of Virginia, 54 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,879 You're a fellow at the Institute for Family Studies at the American Enterprise Institute. 55 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,039 So you've been looking at this data for a long time. In the book, 56 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,560 you really put it on one place. And again, it sounds so 57 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:05,199 obvious to many people, but it's a real uphill battle that you fight every 58 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:11,000 day when you're looking at how media covers marriage. What is the different brand 59 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:15,920 between how especially elite media covers marriage, looks at marriage, maybe even in 60 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,680 Hollywood depictions, in the reality the sort of cold hard facts as you've compiled 61 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,000 them in this book. Yeah, so I think it's striking you. When 62 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,480 I first kind of put out the idea that I was doing this book on 63 00:04:29,519 --> 00:04:33,600 Twitter about six months ago, there were a lot of elite journalists who were 64 00:04:33,639 --> 00:04:39,120 saying, basically, look, our American elites are doing just fine at marriage. 65 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,399 Why are you saying defy the elites. The elites are the ones who 66 00:04:41,439 --> 00:04:44,639 are succeeding at marriage. And of course my point is not that we should 67 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,319 be defying the elites to practice, but defying kind of the elite cultural commentary 68 00:04:49,439 --> 00:04:54,360 around marriage. And so when I was finishing up this book, for instance, 69 00:04:54,399 --> 00:04:59,680 I ran across an article and just trending on Twitter in Bloomberg it's that 70 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,680 when stay single and don't have kids are getting richer. It also kind of 71 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,079 depicted a lot of single and childist someone who were just basically living their best 72 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,000 life. Kind of gave people the impression that steering clear of family life was 73 00:05:13,079 --> 00:05:16,360 good financially and emotionally. Footman. There was an article, you know, 74 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,759 written in The Atlantic, the Case against Marriage. There have been numerous pieces 75 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,079 in the New York Times and other than just kind of talking about divorce, 76 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:29,519 particularly since COVID had There was an article friends in New York Times it's a 77 00:05:29,639 --> 00:05:33,000 divorce can be an act of radical self love. So kind of getting this 78 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:39,360 message. It's profoundly you know, often anti nuptial, anti marriage, and 79 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:44,839 anti natal as well, kind of anti kids that's been sort of seen more 80 00:05:44,879 --> 00:05:47,120 and more in the elite media, and I just wanted to kind of basically 81 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,680 remind people on this book and part that when you look at kind of average 82 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:59,240 Americans Emily, there's just no question that married men and married women are much 83 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:00,720 more likely to be happy with the last are about twice is likely to be 84 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,680 very pathed with their lives, for instance. And when it comes to women, 85 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:10,480 there's no group of women in America today who are happier than married moms. 86 00:06:10,519 --> 00:06:14,720 So for all of the challenges and difficulties of being a parent and you 87 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,639 know, crying babies, trunk lent teens, you know, trips to the 88 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,519 er, you know, not being able to always do what you want to 89 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,439 do, there's just no question that I think for many of us, the 90 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:30,120 opportunities to care for someone else, to have someone care for us, to 91 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,839 you know, be trusted guides to our children, to watch them on the 92 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:40,480 playing field at the you know, the concert if you're religious, to go 93 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:43,839 to church with them, these things into being so important, meaningful and joyful. 94 00:06:43,879 --> 00:06:46,319 And so that's I think in part why we actually see is that you 95 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:50,279 know, in ordinary America, married moms and married dads are the happiest. 96 00:06:50,519 --> 00:06:55,839 So basically, don't read what you believe from journalists, often writers writing from 97 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,399 Brooklyn or something. I don't know what's thebout with the Brooklyn sort of what 98 00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:00,439 I wonder because so many pieces coming out of Brooklyn. I mean it's just 99 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,279 crazy, like literally, I mean there's just dozens of pieces that are, 100 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:11,959 you know, basically attacking marriage, tacking motherhood and I don't know what's wrong 101 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,920 in Brooklyn. But without failure, you scrolled to the byline and it says 102 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:18,199 X as a writer basically in Brooklyn. It's just like, oh my god, 103 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:20,959 what's in the water there? You know, we're there in Brooklyn. 104 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:26,360 I don't know. It's just it's crazy. That's funny. So you just 105 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:28,160 touched on one of the things you touched on in the book, and it 106 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:30,879 was one of my big curiosities going into this too, is we're looking at 107 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:38,720 the data and qualitative and quantitative on why this is beneficial. A lot of 108 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,680 people talk about this in the context of women for men. What are the 109 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:48,800 differences between why marriage is good for men and women? And is it as 110 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:55,199 important for both sexes as it is for the other. Yeah, great question. 111 00:07:55,279 --> 00:07:58,000 And I think one of the big surprises in terms of getting this whole 112 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:05,279 book project together was that I found that there's a newer message now. So 113 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,319 I think everyone kind of everyone knows that there are plenty of progressives who have 114 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,319 got a pretty negative take on marriage in motherhood from kind of a woman's perspective, 115 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:16,160 Right, that's kind of I'm not saying anything really new on that score. 116 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,839 I'm just sort of saying it's it's wrong. But what I think new 117 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,199 is when I begin the book actually be talking about Andrew Tait, obviously the 118 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:28,079 more right leaning online you know, Manisphere guy who's got a huge following. 119 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,920 And I was even in Utah, actually Emily, talking to a bunch of 120 00:08:31,959 --> 00:08:37,840 young adults and primarily Mormon, and I mentioned Andrew Tate, and I could 121 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,120 see the teenage boy's eyes were kind of wide, they were widening, and 122 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,240 they were nodding, and they've heard the critique. You know that he's offering 123 00:08:45,279 --> 00:08:48,559 and that basically there's no return on investment, you know, from them, 124 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,919 when it comes to marriage, you're just going to be divorced, taken to 125 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,679 the cleaners. She's just kind of trying to take you for your money. 126 00:08:54,120 --> 00:09:01,600 And so Tate's solution is get strong, you know, workout the dominant, 127 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:07,360 the assertive, make a ton of money and use, but don't invest in 128 00:09:07,399 --> 00:09:11,720 a woman. And so obviously his lifestyle I think corresponds to that as well. 129 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,240 But of course what he's missing is that for the average guy in America, 130 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:22,080 the best route to prosperity is getting staying married, and for the average 131 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,320 guy in America, the best route to happiness is to become married and a 132 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,639 father. So there's no group of men who are happier in America than married 133 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:35,480 dads ages eighteen fifty five, and so that's I think what's lost is this 134 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:41,120 kind of recognition that for the average guy in America today, marriage and fatherhood 135 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:46,879 are a great deal, both in terms of the financial kind of dimension and 136 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:50,679 then also the emotional side and just having more people life now it's important. 137 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:54,279 The divorce, you know, challenge, which is I think a legitimate issue 138 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:56,399 to raise, is that we're no longer at sort of the one in two 139 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,720 marriages ending in divorce pattern in the seventies and eight divorces come down since then, 140 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,320 and we would estimate that the folks are getting married today have about a 141 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,320 forty percent risk of divorce. So it's not nothing, but it's not one 142 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,519 and two. Most marriages go the distance, and my book gives both women 143 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,240 and men ideas about how they can strengthen their marriage and avoid ending up in 144 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:26,480 divorce court. A lot of conservatives have been talking about no fault divorce and 145 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,039 the sort of policy approach to divorce state level, federal level in recent years 146 00:10:31,039 --> 00:10:35,360 as the culture War sort of moved back into the forefront or not I shouldn't 147 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,000 say back, but has moved to the forefront of some basic policy debates. 148 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,840 And you know, I've heard different things from people on the right itself. 149 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,679 You know, I've heard people really frustrated that some people on the right talk 150 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:54,440 about no fault divorce with a total lack of sensitivity and kind of understanding of 151 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,639 where these laws came from. And on the other end, a lot of 152 00:10:56,639 --> 00:11:03,200 people who have looked at legitimate data and say that no fault divorce was the 153 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,639 wrong way to go. Brett, how did that? Because again you go 154 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,879 back, you're actually right in the wake of the family revolution that began in 155 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:15,399 the late nineteen sixties and took off in the nineteen seventies, this is right 156 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:18,600 at the beginning of the book, marriage no longer seemed a safe harbor for 157 00:11:18,639 --> 00:11:22,600 American men, women, and children. And someone on the left would say, 158 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:24,559 because it wasn't safe for a lot of women, because you know, 159 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,320 for a lot of women, they were trapped. Yeah, I think there's 160 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,960 obviously truth to that, And there was a lot of you know, chicanery 161 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:37,519 that was happening with divorce back in the fifties and sixties and before then. 162 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,519 Because you can only get a divorce in very unlimited situations, someone had to 163 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,279 take kind of the fall for the divorce. So I think what I would 164 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,639 sort of say is that kind of going forward, we have to acknowledge that 165 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,639 divorce laws are part and parcel of why people are less invested in marriage today 166 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,240 than they were fifty years ago or sixty years ago. And we also actually 167 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,120 have new evidence from Pennsylvania that indicates that divorce, the no fault divorce, 168 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:09,519 you know rise in the seventies that swept across most states then helps to explain 169 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,879 this marriage vibe that we're now you know, and what I mean by that 170 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,159 is basically, educated and affluent Americans are more likely to get married stay married, 171 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,759 and working class in poor Americans are much less likely to get married in 172 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:22,120 the first place and then stay married in a place. And what this new 173 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:28,360 research from ten indicates is that for more educated and affluent Americans, they've got 174 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,279 a large shared asset, oftentimes a house that helps to bind them together. 175 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,120 But sort of the protection of the law, which really kind of was there 176 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:43,080 until the seventies, was more helpful for working class in for Americans and kind 177 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,120 of reinforced marriage and working class in poor communities. Once that protection kind of 178 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,960 lifts with no fault divorce, their kind of confidence and their ability to rely 179 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,519 upon marriage is kind of a stable institution is just much weaker. And so 180 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,440 that's just we have to kind of figure out some new way going forward to 181 00:12:58,519 --> 00:13:05,159 strengthen and stabilize marriage, in part by reforming divorce laws. And we've got 182 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:11,600 three lawyers that are looking right now at ideas at these certain family studies that 183 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:15,600 we're going to be hopefully rolling out with them the next year or so that 184 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:20,480 would help us to think about, you know, some creative ideas to make 185 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:22,720 it harder to get divorced a little bit for folks are made with children. 186 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,639 And you know, one of your friends and we're thinking about is you know, 187 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:33,799 some divorce education, you know, that might slow down some people or 188 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:39,039 make them rethink their decision. Obviously waiting period were in some states, but 189 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,600 kind of thinking about posting as more of a universal normal across the US. 190 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,919 But I've got a couple of ideas we're trying to kind of think about that 191 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,360 would be not making some of the mistakes that were made I think in the 192 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:56,120 older model, but not kind of just allowing a very kind of expressive approach 193 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,919 to divorce where it's just kind of like, I don't believe, you know, 194 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,240 we've drifted apart. You know, my life is depressed. You know, 195 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,440 I want a new you know, a new option, whatever it might 196 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:11,399 be. And they're obviously serious cases where divorce is warranted, but we have 197 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,320 seen since the seventies too many of these more expressive divorces where people are breaking 198 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:22,279 up their marriages for reasons that I would argue are not good for particularly their 199 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:28,080 children, and they might want to rethink that and have the law kind of 200 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,840 stand more on the side of keeping the marriage together. This might sound like 201 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,519 a weird question, but I wonder also, Brad, how, in your 202 00:14:35,519 --> 00:14:39,840 opinion, the divorce rate, which you note has actually declined, But how 203 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:46,200 has that affected the never married demographic or you know, on the policy culture 204 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,720 being downstream of policy question, you know, how has the American kind of 205 00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:56,639 approached a divorce from your perspective, changed people's decision whether or not to ever 206 00:14:56,679 --> 00:14:58,200 even get married in the first place. And can you tell us a little 207 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,240 bit about the never married demographic as it's emerging, especially among young people. 208 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,679 Yeah, so, I mean, certainly part of the story about divorce. 209 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,559 The fact that divorce is down is because it's you know, marriage is more 210 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,080 selective. So we're seeing today in the book talks about four groups of people 211 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,720 who are more likely to get married in America today, and I call them 212 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:22,879 kind of the masters of marriage. And those four groups are Americans who are 213 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:31,360 an Asian American, or religious Americans, or college educated Americans or conservative Americans. 214 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,879 And so for a variety of reasons related to I would say cash and 215 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,039 culture, those four groups are more likely to put a ring on it today. 216 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:45,039 And also they're just less susceptible to divorce. So again, one reason 217 00:15:45,039 --> 00:15:48,519 that we're seeing less divorce is that the people are getting married are either more 218 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,279 affluent, or more religious, or more marriage minded. In an important way 219 00:15:56,159 --> 00:16:00,399 now. That means that never married folks are more working class than poor, 220 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:03,919 and I think that's an old story. Most people who kind of track this 221 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,759 issue understand that. What people don't realize, though, is that there's a 222 00:16:07,799 --> 00:16:10,639 cultural story you're playing out for the never married, and that is the Americans 223 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:15,320 who are more secular and more progressive are also less likely to be married, 224 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:22,120 less likely to have kids as well. And it looks like from my manage 225 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:25,519 point, kind of the gap, the cultural gap when it comes to marriage 226 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:30,559 for religious and secular Americans and for conservative and progressive Americans is growing when it 227 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:36,440 comes to marriage and family formation. So that just means because we kind of 228 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,559 go down the pike here, we're going to see many more kindless Americans in 229 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:48,960 poor, working class secular and progressive community sort of broadly understood, and obviously 230 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,759 there's going to be some places where there's an overlap and some not. But 231 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,440 that's I think, you know what we're going to see happening in this country 232 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:03,320 in the next you know, decade or two. Yeah, as you're looking 233 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,319 ahead, and again you work with students, so I'm curious from that vantage 234 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,359 point too, there's such a mismatch now of college graduation rates. And also 235 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,039 you'll know this better than I do, but what women say they want in 236 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:21,559 a partner seems to also be really mismatched with the population, earning, potential, 237 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:25,759 education level and all of that. What kind of keeps you up at 238 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,880 night thinking about where these trends could go with not just sort of younger millennials, 239 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,680 but gen Z and then maybe even down the road. But I would 240 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,640 think, especially gen Z, this is a pretty problematic trend right now. 241 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,799 So I mean, I think the challenge is facing us when it comes to 242 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,880 marriage. You know, moving forward are number one, there's a growing ideological 243 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,200 divide, as you know, there's a growing educational divide, which you just 244 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:59,039 touched on. So women are better educated than men among adults, women are 245 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:03,359 more liberal than among an adults. And then on top of all that, 246 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:10,279 we're seeing more secularization right now, and we are also seeing I think a 247 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:14,920 lot of men are floundering when it comes to kind of having that sense of 248 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:22,519 clear direction both in school and in their professional lives that would make them attractive 249 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:26,480 as marriageable men. So all these things are kind of combining, and so 250 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:33,799 I would certainly have a pretty negative prediction for sort of at least the short 251 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,119 and median term future for marriage in terms of the numbers. And then if 252 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,279 you kind of just add on to that the impact of smartphones and now of 253 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:48,240 AI and virtual reality classes and goggles, which tend to I think reduce in 254 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:53,000 first and socializing and dating, the picture is pretty blak. So all that 255 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,160 stuff keeps me up at night. And I think, you know, I 256 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,119 really look at my book as an opportunit comunity to kind of get people who 257 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:08,359 are paying attention to realize that you kind of got to reach higher ground family 258 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,759 wise, relationship wise. If you can't, and then you won't be able 259 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:15,839 to. But there's a demographic tsunami coming and it's going to leave a lot 260 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:21,279 of young adults today without a spouse and without children as they move into midlife 261 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:25,000 in later life. And we talked about them as bare branches in the book, 262 00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:29,039 using a term from China, people who don't me kin. So just 263 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:33,119 kindlessness is heading to our shores. It's come across the Pacific, where it's 264 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,000 pretty common in East Asia, it's coming to America. And if you want 265 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:41,359 to reach higher ground, if you want to have your own family, don't 266 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,599 listen to your parents and professors who tell you to wait until you're twenty nine 267 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,799 to look around and find a spouse. I'm not saying you have to get 268 00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:51,160 married at twenty two or twenty four like I did. I'm just saying, 269 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,880 like, if you're in college and you meet someone who's like wonderful and you 270 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,759 know, fun to be with and a great friend, and forbid, don't 271 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:03,920 wait until you're twenty eight and that person may have gone somewhere else, you 272 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,759 know, to pull the trigger, you know, get more serious with them 273 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:10,599 and think about marriage. Or you know, if you're working in DC and 274 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,000 you're in your early twenties, you know, and you find someone who's a 275 00:20:12,039 --> 00:20:17,440 great friend and a great prospect, don't wait, you know, year pon 276 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:19,880 year, pon year, kind of you know, pull the trigger and ask 277 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,400 them to marry you. It would be kind of you know, part part 278 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,759 of my thinking about, you know, helping people understand there's a new challenge 279 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,359 day, and that is that a lot of American young adults will never put 280 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:34,799 a ring on it, will never have children, and so they have to 281 00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:41,720 be a lot more intentional about avoiding that that demographic and cultural trend that's sort 282 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:48,400 of enveloping America today and how did it change from boomers to exers, to 283 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,839 millennials and then to zoomers, Because I know part of this has been some 284 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:56,440 of the predictions with millennials, for example, And I say, because I'm 285 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:03,240 a millennial, is they ended up just getting married later at a similar rook 286 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:06,200 But it's just a similar right, right, It's still a step down. 287 00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:08,400 Right. There are plenty of you know, academics and journalists and other you 288 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,640 know, people who think about these issues and right about that who would be 289 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,519 very kind of skeptical of the claims that I'm making to you right now, 290 00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:17,039 Emily. They would sort of say, you know, people are just getting 291 00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:19,480 married later. You know, just relax, Brad, this is not a 292 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,480 big deal. But I'm just saying that there are a number of different scholars 293 00:21:23,559 --> 00:21:27,359 who are kind of all pointing to the sort of trajectory here, and they're 294 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,680 kind of telling us that, yes, from the boomers who kind of often 295 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,880 married in the early twenties, to the exers who married oftentimes in their mid 296 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,839 to late twenties, to millennials who are marrying around thirty, we're not kind 297 00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:45,119 of just seeing delay in marriage, but we're also seeing people foregoing marriage either 298 00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:49,559 voluntarily or involuntarily. And there's just kind of a way in which the more 299 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:56,279 you postpone marriage, the more difficult, you know, you make your prospects 300 00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:00,559 of ultimately finding someone. And then now we're living in a culture or where 301 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:06,519 it's just harder to even you know, meet people and date even when it 302 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:11,279 comes to you know, cohabiting relationships, not to mention, you know, 303 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,200 marriage as well. So I just think it's it's incumbent upon younger adults in 304 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,400 their twenties and people who are single in their thirties just to realize that they 305 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:26,440 need to be both themselves more intentional about finding people who might be worthy updating. 306 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,559 I mean also asking their trusted friends and family members to kind of play 307 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,960 the matchmaker role of you know, a bygone era or a different culture, 308 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,640 you know, and realize that you know, you might want to kind of 309 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,200 let your friends you know, you're looking to marry and do they have prospects 310 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,920 in mind and have them be more aggressive on your behalf as well. And 311 00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:51,079 how does I know again this and I think you've studied, how do civic 312 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:59,759 organizations and the kind of bowling alone alienated America trends that you know Putnam and 313 00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:04,799 Cary describe when it comes to empty churches, empty bowling leagues, that has 314 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:10,720 to really be affecting people's abilities just to couple off, especially when you add 315 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,279 in app culture swiping. You know, people get what's called option paralysis just 316 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,359 on Netflix because there's so many choices, let alone in a city of you 317 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,119 know, a million people or a suburb of millions of people as well. 318 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:26,680 Yeah, no, I think that's that's the challenge, is that, you 319 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,079 know, we do know that in general, churches are good places to meet 320 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,160 people. My colleague, doctor Wendy Wing at these More Family Studies, has 321 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,680 found that people who meet, you know, through some kind of religious community 322 00:23:40,319 --> 00:23:45,000 report the highest quality marriages. And by contrast, folks are meeting online and 323 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:49,160 folks are meeting in bars in person report the lowest quality marriages. But kind 324 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,960 of generally speaking, meeting in persons better and meeting in a religious community is 325 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,960 is you know, kind of gets tough ranks. But there are a few 326 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,599 young adults who are you know, finding their way to to religious communities. 327 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,519 That's a big challenge. And then I think, yeah, the the whole 328 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:10,599 kind of dating culture online is often not conducive to marriage because it tends to 329 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,240 reward like the most appealing, if you will, kind of candidates for dating, 330 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:21,839 at least judging on some you know looks or you know, status criteria, 331 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,799 and so a lot of people kind of are left out of that and 332 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,079 are you know, alienated from or kept away from, you know, good 333 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,920 dating opportunities. And then the folks who are kind of flourishing on the dating 334 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,720 apps often I think, don't feel like the need to be more intentional about 335 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,960 finding someone to marry, which isn't great either. So yeah, there's just 336 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:47,079 kind of a perfect storm that's sort of unfolded here. And so I think 337 00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:49,920 people who want to flourish when it comes to marriage or family who are kind 338 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:57,960 of your age roughly speaking, just need to be more countercultural and more engaged 339 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,799 in their communities. Then they might otherwise be interesting. And one thing that's 340 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:10,119 true of your work in general and definitely this book is you do a very 341 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:17,000 good job of putting class in the spotlight, and that's where it really needs 342 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:21,200 to be, especially as you're describing you know, trends like how it's a 343 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,519 path to upward mobility marriagures a path to upward mobility, but also as it's 344 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,960 something that is practiced by people who are already upwardly mobile. And you talked 345 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,839 about this a little bit earlier, Abrad but a there's a divide between what's 346 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:40,480 being practiced and preached by elites, but also that marriage is the best route 347 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:44,200 to sort of get from point A to point B. At the same time, 348 00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:48,200 can you break down the class element a little bit more? Yeah, 349 00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:52,759 So, what we see in both my book and other other books like Melissa 350 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:56,640 Kearny's new book, is that working class and poor Americans are much more likely 351 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,759 to have difficulty getting married in the first place today being married in the second 352 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:02,880 place. When it comes just to kind of who's married, we see that 353 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,359 a majority of college educated Americans I call them strivers in my book, are 354 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,400 married eighteen fifty five. By contrast, only a minority of Americans with less 355 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,519 education and then eighteen fifty five demographic are married. And then when it comes 356 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,799 to divorce, we see is that Americans who don't have a college degree are 357 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:29,880 about sixty percent more likely to get divorced compared to their peers who do have 358 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:37,160 a college degree. So there's just a big gap in terms of both entering 359 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:44,000 marriage and staying married that is associated with the class divine. I think there's 360 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,279 a lot happening with that. But I think two things worth quickly touching on. 361 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,680 One is that having a large shared asset is a stabilizing forced married couples 362 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,640 and so more educated, afluent Americans are more like could have a home fawn 363 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,599 together, And that in some in some ways, just you know is a 364 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:07,759 you know, is a force for you know, making people work through you 365 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:12,759 know, the usual challenges and difficulties in any marriage. But the second thing 366 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,359 that I think is also kind of playing out here when it comes to this 367 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:22,240 class divide is that we're seeing that working class and poor couples are market of 368 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,759 guys who are not employed full time, and male full time employment are you 369 00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:30,680 know, is just a huge predictor both of getting married in the first place 370 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,119 and staying married in the second place. There was a Harvard study that found 371 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:40,799 that when mary couple had the wife loser job, no impact on a risk 372 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:45,799 of divorce none. When the husband lost his job, their risk of divorce 373 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:51,160 surged by about thirty three percent. So that's an example of I think the 374 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,319 way in which I mean twenty twenty four is obviously different than nineteen fifty four. 375 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,160 And I'm not saying we should go back nineteen fifties, but I think 376 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,880 it's just important to recognize realize that even today, women, even women on 377 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,839 the on the left, are looking for guys who have a set of you 378 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:17,319 know, of rates, character endowments that kind of correspond to being more responsible, 379 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:22,680 more protective, more likely to be flourishing in the labor force. And 380 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,920 there's an unfortunately as a class divide that's kind of playing out there now that 381 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,880 is making the case that a lot of guys work less of our communities are 382 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:37,240 not as marriageable on things like full time employment. And the other question I 383 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:42,519 have is on race in particular, race, class and public policy, the 384 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:48,359 black marriage rate in particular. A lot of people make the argument that when 385 00:28:48,359 --> 00:28:52,519 you started to see break down the black family, you started to have public 386 00:28:52,559 --> 00:29:02,079 policy disincentivizing family formation. Great society is often targeted that in particular, what 387 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,880 is the what is the data show run? So I think it is the 388 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,960 case that one reason that there is a racial divide in American life today when 389 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,599 it comes to marriage and family, that that is is pretty marked. Whereas 390 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:21,319 you were kind of noting the majority of like Asian Americans, our greer majority 391 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:26,279 are married, and the slite majority of whites are in the con demographic and 392 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:33,000 focusing on only minority of African Americans are is that. You know, in 393 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,759 the sixties and seventies, a lot of our means tested programs, a lot 394 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:41,519 of our welfare programs effectively penalized marriage. You know, it's just kind of 395 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:45,920 a better financial deal not to get married in the first place, and just 396 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,920 to live together. And we still see this dynamic playing out now with more 397 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,839 working class couples. That's a complicated it. It was the poor in the 398 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,000 sixties, it was now, it's more working class. Just the way in 399 00:29:55,039 --> 00:30:00,400 which you know, benefits are allocated. And because African Americans were or likely 400 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,960 to be lower income in the sixties, and I think they were more affected 401 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,960 by this great society dynamic than were whites, for instance, although it hastened 402 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,759 to add to I think there was a lot happening the culture in the sixties 403 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:17,759 and seventies too. The sexual Revolution, you know, for instance, would 404 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:23,759 be one example. The rise in individualism, civil rights, you know, 405 00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:30,160 all these things were kind of also I think re calibrating the kind of the 406 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,599 character and context of white and black family lives in ways that ended up having 407 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:40,640 a disparate impact on black marriage and black families. And then economically too, 408 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,799 we know that working class Americans have been hit harder by the economic changes of 409 00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:51,519 the last you know, fifty years give or take. In that economic story 410 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,759 affected black couples and black men in particularly important ways. One final piece on 411 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:03,359 this is that a lot of Americans do not really eyes that from about eighteen 412 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:08,319 seventy to around nineteen forty, depending upon you know which trends you're looking at, 413 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:12,599 and focusing on black men and black women, in that kind of period 414 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:19,960 after the Civil War up to about the nineteen fifties, black Americans emily were 415 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,759 more likely to marry than white Americans. And if you were to kind of 416 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:30,960 go down any street here in Charlottesville right now, you know, situated residential 417 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,960 street, you would find the vast majority of black and white kids, you 418 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:41,119 know, living in you know, married homes. So there's just something about 419 00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:45,000 the sixties and seventies, i'd say, in terms of public policy, cultural 420 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:48,960 shifts, and economic changes that kind of led to a situation where African Americans 421 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,680 were less likely to marry in the first place, and then more likely to 422 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,319 get divorced in the second place, And Brad, I could do this all 423 00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:00,839 day, but one area that might be a good spot. So wind down 424 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,680 is just that if we were to hold all things constant in the culture and 425 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,799 create the best American economy of the last one hundred years, go back to 426 00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:14,160 the post war economy something like that. What we're starting to see trends of 427 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:22,000 among gen z some crazy polling on gen Z men and women pulling apart from 428 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:25,759 each other ideologically. We have gen Z men, at least in the last 429 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,279 couple of years, seeming to embrace some conservative ideas in ways nobody really expected 430 00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:36,559 in a worldview, in ways people really didn't anticipate, at least to the 431 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:38,799 degree that it seems to have happened, and how quickly it seems to have 432 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,599 happened, and young women getting more and more liberal. So if we were 433 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:50,200 to hold everything constant in the culture, what would happen? And what do 434 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,759 you think is going to happen with that crazy mismatch? Yeah, I mean, 435 00:32:54,759 --> 00:33:01,079 I think we're looking at deeper ideological polarization. We're going to see you 436 00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:06,279 know, less marriage less child bearing. I mean, it's already happening obviously 437 00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:08,359 in South Korea in a very extreme way. So in South Korea, the 438 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,960 twenty somethings are pretty polarized between the sexes, where young men are going right 439 00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:16,720 and when they're going left, having a lot of difficulty dating, meeting, 440 00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:22,200 marrying, having children as a consequence in part, and the right leaning twenty 441 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:28,559 something guys helped just elect a conservative president in South Korea, and it was 442 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:36,079 somewhat of a surprise to some Korean observers. So that's sort of one scenario. 443 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,400 And I think for a long time, a lot of progressives assume that 444 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:45,880 kind of the rising character of unmarried America, the fact that there are more 445 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,000 and more folks who are not married, would lead in extably to a kind 446 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,359 of democratic demographic dominance, like they sort of thought about kind of trends and 447 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:59,400 immigration and whatnot. But what I think they and frankly me did not anticipate 448 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,839 is that it looks like a lot of single men, younger single men today 449 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,079 are you know, moving right and in a way some ways that are good, 450 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:08,960 in some ways that are not great. You know. I think Inentertate's 451 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,239 obviously a great example of how this can play out in negative ways. And 452 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,199 so for young men who kind of feel like rejected either romantically or who feel 453 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,199 like they don't have a shot at realizing the American dream in terms of their 454 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:27,599 you know, education, work opportunities, or abilities. I think that kind 455 00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:31,039 of can lead to a to a dark place and to a dark politics. 456 00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:37,800 So I would anticipate that kind of young women who are more progressive is going 457 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,920 to kind of push the Democratic Party in a more radically progressive direction. In 458 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:47,079 young men who are conservative may be disappointed with their prospects, you know, 459 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:54,960 both job wise and family wise, or roman romance wise, could also be 460 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,440 obviously pushing the Republican Party into a dark place as well, more reactionary angry 461 00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:07,599 politics. So anyways, yeah, right now, I think the trajectory is 462 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:12,199 not good, and the challenge is how do we kind of bridge this to 463 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,679 bi between the sexis among our adults, and if we can kind of make 464 00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:21,440 progress in doing that miraculously, our future as a country, as a civilization 465 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,199 is going to be much brighter. If we can't, I would I would 466 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:30,400 project more of the same. What an exciting and optimistic place to end, 467 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:37,039 Yeah right, yeah, yeah, I cannot recommend those book and off it's 468 00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:40,320 fantastic it's called once Again Get Married, and Brady timed it for basically a 469 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,920 Valentine's Day release. It's out of February thirteenth. Was that intentional Harper wanted 470 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,840 to do that? Yeah, they aim for this Valentine's daytiming. Yep. 471 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,320 It's perfect, absolutely perfect, and especially when people are surrounded by so many 472 00:35:54,360 --> 00:36:00,880 wonderful stories of successful marriages. So Again Get Married by bradwell Cox. Brad, 473 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,760 thank you so much for joining the show, and it's a pleasure to 474 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,880 be with you as as always. You've been listening to another edition of The 475 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,880 Federalist or a radio hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, culture editor here at The 476 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,920 Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of 477 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:21,079 freedom and anxious for the Fray. You got me right, well, you