Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis Shure host. We
have a great one for you this evening. Greg Bishop is going to be
on and I just started listening to his podcast recently and it's great. We'll
talk a little bit about that and a lot more. Alejandro Rojas is coming
up with the UFO updates, and just a second here, I want to
thank everyone that supports the show. For only two dollars or more a month,
you can help us out. And I just have to say real quickly,
it's not affecting anyone at all, but we did get hacked and I've
had I've had to like redo all types of security services and things and clean
the site. But someone in China was getting new subscribers PayPal money and you
know, and it was quite a bit all at once. So but that's
taken care of. We're all set. Just another monthly expense. So if
anyone can help us out, we would really appreciate it. That information is
all on podcast ufo dot com and if you can help us out, you
still want to listen to the whole show always on Wednesday evenings. That may
change to Monday eventually, but right now it's on Wednesdays at eight to ten
pm Eastern Standard time. You can also listen on the Dark Matter Digital Network
a lot of people do, and that's on Thursdays from ten to midnight.
And that's it for me. Alejandro, how are you good? To have
you back? I am good. How are you doing? Grate? Was
I here last week? No, you haven't been on for a long long
real long, Holy moley, long time. I don't know exactly. Well,
I'm back, baby, Yeah, you're back, and you've got a
great shirt. Anyone watching YouTube? What is that? Oh, isn't that
cute? It's a little Lego guys. So this is when I volunteered my
girlfriend's daughter, Rihanna, who's one of my good buddies. She's awesome,
but she is in her first year in college. But in high school she
was part of the robotics club and one of the robotics leagues is the Lego
League. It's the elementary league, and so we volunteered to help those guys
out a couple of times. And so this is our volunteer T shirt for
the Robotics Lego League. Pretty cool? Yeah, I like it? Yeah,
I love it. Yeah. Yeah, So how's everything going. Have
you had some R and rings, did some traveling? Well, I did
some traveling, not a whole lot of R and R. I hope to
get to some more. But it's been busy, so of course there's so
much going on right now. I'm still playing some catchup. In fact,
right now i'm writing my story about the third Department of Defense video that was
released, which I'm sure we can talk about. And even though that happened,
you know what, a week or two ago, two weeks ago maybe
now, but about a week week and a half actually it was March ninth.
But so I'm still killing I'm playing catch up. I had some other
stories to post, and one of those, sent to us from Linda Zimmerman
that I posted on Friday was a great one about UFO sightings during Saint Patrick's
Day in particular. Of course, she's focused on the Hudson Valley, New
York area, so she wrote about that, but really cool stories there.
So yeah, I've been busy with that. I've also got a their new
venture I'm doing just so you know, and I can plug this modern American
dot news. So I've got a lot of blogs, you know, I
used to contribute with a Huffington Post. I'm not doing it anymore, but
I've still got all of these great interviews with some scientists and with um in
one case, a former senator and or foreigner congressman about space and other things.
So I've got a new site, Modern American dot News, and I
get stories sometimes from people who ask if this story will fit, you know,
on Open Minds, and if it's not UFOs, I don't post it.
So I've got some of those and I'm gonna let those people know that
I can post it at this new website that I'm putting together, and I'm
going to talk to some of my other media buddies because often, you know,
when when people write, they're stuck on a particular genre that they're they're
tasked to write about for whatever outlet they write for. So this gives people
the opportunity to write about other genres that they may be interested in. So
I'm excited about that. I hope this does well, and can you tell
it kind another outlet for writing an idea of what type of topics we may
be able to find on that, Like right now, you'll see a lot
of my kind of science and entertainment stuff. So my interviews with scientists regarding
some fascinating topics, like, you know, robotics. One of the interviews
I did was you know whether or not we'll have an AI robot anytime soon,
kind of like in the movie Chappie. And this guy is an ASU,
a researcher who is working on robotics for NASA, and he's working on
building robots that can think for themselves, because let's say you send a robot
or like the rovers on Mars, takes a long time to communicate with them.
If they could actually figure out and determine some tasks they could do on
their own, then we don't have to wait for the course, you know,
the signals to go back and forth. So that's what he's working on,
and surprisingly he says, yes, that it won't be too long before
we could do some sort of AI system that could become self aware, which
is kind of strange. I mean, that's that's really odd. Some of
the experiments some of these robotics guys do too. It's like this one guy
has these little robots he makes and he uses the brains of Mars of Oh,
I think I saw something on the control selling little wires into the Yeah,
so some cool stuff like that, some kind of just kind of science
and space stuff out there. Uh. Mike Massey Mino is a astronaut.
You see him more and more on television. He's this New Yorker guy.
I think it's from the Bronx and he's just a really cool guy. But
I also posted an interview I have of him up there, and that's really
amazing. Kids. We're talking about spacewalks and you really get the sense of
kind of the the aw that they encounter when they're doing these spacewalks. So
yeah, so I lucky have the opportunity to interview more astronauts and things like
that, and uh so that's what you'll see up there, is more of
the kind of conventional stuff. I'll put the bigger UFO stories up there occasionally,
but for the most part, you know, it's um, yeah,
kind of mainstream news sort of things there. Well, um talking about AI,
it took a little a little step back with that right by you in
Tempe. That accident recently is too bad of self driving cars. I really
think is going to be the future. You know. Whatever happened, I
hope they can figure it out. And iron it out so something like that
won't happen. Well, actually they're they're kind of stating that something like this
can happen and will happen again. But it wasn't the car's fault. So
it's almost actually turning into a good story for these cars because they at least
the police officer they kind of walked it back in it. It's been kind
of this pr issue, but they said that from looking at the cameras on
the vehicle, no one could have avoided hitting that person because unfortunately that person
walked out onto the street with their car in front. Some day. Yeah,
the bicycle. So there's this area where it's this is weird and it's
kind of the city of Tempe's fault. They have this area where there's this
walkway and it looks like it's a pedestrian or biking lane and it's not.
There's even a sign that says this is just for for looks essentially, and
which is kind of silly because why do you have a walkway there. So
that's where this person was, was on this walkway and they, I guess
assumed they could cross the street because just down the street near the university,
any crosswalks. You know, you have to stop before for pedestrians going through
the crosswalk, but this is not a crosswalk that she went through. So
it's looking like it wasn't the car's fault. And they're saying that, you
know, the the vehicle or the car could not have avoided the So it's
just like the same thing as if a driver couldn't avoid it, the vehicle
couldn't avoid it, right either. Yeah, and I yeah, for the
most part, I think self driving cars are going to be much much safer
than yeah, um, you know, just it can react instant. I
mean, we can react fairly quickly, but they can react much quicker than
the human brain. Ye, the way they're doing so many cars have this
integrated uh, these integrated systems where they'll stop if you miss something, they'll
stop for you. Um. I have it on my Toyota. Toyota is
only seventeen and it has it has an alarm if someone stops up in front
of you, and then if you don't hit the brakes, that'll hit them
for you, which is pretty nice. Wow. Yeah, it's cool.
I love this stuff. Well, that's great. I wish you good luck
on that. I think we should probably talk about UFO news though, right,
Is there anything at some point? Yeah? So what's going on?
Yeah? So I don't know. Have you talked about the third video much
to cover that? No, I talked about it. So on March ninth
a Washington Post story came out while I was in the Caribbean, so I
was not able to read it and the big news that it had created when
it happened. So I had to cover that when I when I got back,
because I ignored everything when I was attempting to chill out. It was
just it was adventurous. We went to lots of violence, so I didn't
get it relaxed, but I got to see some really cool stuff. But
anyway, on March ninth, a kind of an opinion piece came out on
the Washington Post in their outlook section called Perspective, and it was written by
Christopher Mellon, who you're familiar with. He was a Deputy Assistant Secretary of
the Fence for Intelligence during the Clinton and Bush administrations. He also has been
a consultant for Congress on intelligence. He's worked in CIA, He's worked at
very high level intelligence positions throughout his career. Now he's retired from that and
he's really into UFOs. Leslie Kane wrote a story on him a couple of
years ago that kind of outed him on this, and now he's part of
this to the Stars organization along with Louise Elisondo. He wrote an article which
was titled the military keeps encountering UFOs? Why doesn't the Pentagon care? And
along with this article, To the Stars released the third video that they had
in their stash of an alleged UFO. So these are videos that from what
we are told, that this organization a tip the advanced aerospace or aerial or
aviation. There's arguments over what the second word is threat identification program that Louise
Alzando used to run. They have allegedly looked at these videos and determined them
to be unidentified. They can't figure out what they are, and they all
feel that these what was observed, these craft that were observed demonstrated technology more
advanced than what we could create here or that any other nation has. What
Melan is arguing is that maybe these videos are showing objects that are Russian or
Chinese, we don't know, but that the Department of Defense should be interested,
they should want to figure out what these unknown objects are, but they
don't seem to care or at least be spending the time and effort to investigate
these, which is exactly what Alisando says. He worked for that department.
He says, we found these unknowns that you know, the pilots and figure
out what they are. We've had some pilots, you know, speak on
the news on on one of the other videos saying we think that this thing's
et even and Alasander just feels like Defense department didn't taken enough notice. So
that's what Melon was arguing, and so in this article he u they released
the this new video, which is probably the most impressive of all of them.
It's really cool. It comes from a F eighteen hornet, just like
the others from the Navy and the You could see that they're videotaping the or
they've got their flare, their infrared with registers heat pointed towards the ocean,
and you see this object kind of zip in go across the screen and then
the camera tries to track the object and eventually it does a lock on and
it follows this object, which appears to be moving very quickly. The objects
below the aircraft. The aircraft is moving at three hundred about three hundred miles
per hour, and we know this from the telemetry on the screen. But
yeah, the objects moving pretty quickly. With the I R which gathers heat,
you can tell that the object appears to be round. Now that's the
heat signature of it. But on the TTSA website they do demonstrate that even
from the heat signature, you can still make out, you know, the
site, the shape of an object that they show a jet, and you
can see it's a jet because you can see the wings and you can also
see the exhaust which is about as large as the plane itself. So this
object does not have exhaust, doesn't appear to have wings, so they don't
know what the heck. It is a couple of things to note. First
of all, where does it come from? The title In to the Star's
website, they say no other information as to where this object was videotaped or
when has been released, but the title of the video they've named the twenty
fifteen Go Fast Footage. And in Chris Mellon's article, he said that this
occurred off the east coast in twenty fifteen, so that's all we know about
it currently as to where it comes from. So that's the new video.
It's a very impressive video. But the question is, you know they say
on the TTSA website that even though they were the first to receive this video,
that they were released by the Department of Defense. Alessandra said that in
our International UFO Congress video as well in our interview with him, and that
so you can foya these videos to get copies of them, but nobody's really
had any success Foyang doing foyas on anything regarding this department. Yet the New
York Times verified that the a tip department you know, that investigated this UFOs
did exist. But that's the only thing officially that's coming from the Department of
Offense. Everything else we know, we know through to the Stars or through
Elesando, and so researchers are working to verify that information. There's been some
confusion in this release. So for instance, CNN did a piece, a
couple of pieces on this video, and one of those pieces was the video
where they're giving you information. But as far as anybody else getting any copies
of these videos, and as Alesando states, the videos, there are only
a few seconds each because they're only showing you parts that they can show that
aren't classified. If that object, you know, shows other aircraft, or
it shows anything that could indicate, you know, anything going on with what
they're maneuvers that are classified, then it can't be shown. So that's why
we only have these small clips of these videos. But so there are still
a ton of questions. I'm going to be able to talk to Alisando again
sometimes soon and hopefully get a follow up interview. But not only do we
need answers from him, which will we'll get, I think we also need
some of these foys to result in some documentation and or t T's essay needs
to release any documentation they have, because we don't have any real documentation backing
up any of this yet. Well, you know, I think I told
you when we talked the other day that I've been communicating with a pilot that
says he's seen this. So I asked him the question after you and I
finished, how long ago did you see those see that video? In particular,
because he saw he said he saw this exact video and a briefing.
He's a military pilot, and he said that was about he's about four years
ago, so that's it's probably he's probably telling the truth, you know,
I don't. I don't know. Um, it'll be interesting. He said
that it was the particular reason of this video being in the briefing that he
was in was to show the something like the slide and catch of the raytheon
camera. Um, it was it was an excellent job how they actually were
able to catch the object. So it'll be interesting the more I find out
about what he knows about it. But it maybe, Yeah, you may
want to ask Alesando when you talk to him, Um, did pilots,
the average pilot get to see this? M Yeah, from what I believe,
that's true that some people have seen it, but or at least seeing
some of these. But these videos were allegedly declassified. They went through a
declassifying process, so hopefully we'll see those documents. Regarding that. Leslie Kane
said she's seen those documents, so we know that they have them, that
TTSA people have them, so hopefully they'll release those at some point. But
the only problem with that, of course, twenty fifteen was only a little
more than two years ago, so it might not be in this video.
He saw maybe one of the others. But right, yeah, or yeah,
so it's it. Yeah, yeah, he could. So I'm excited
to hear more. But I don't think and this is kind of the issue
and what's happening. I think there's there's many disconnects going on with people.
Researchers are trying to verify some of this information, and the media isn't necessarily
they're taking Alesando's word for it because to the media, he is an authority.
He's been vetted, he worked for the Department of Defense, He's the
authority. If he says they investigated it, that's good enough for them,
and unless someone of authority was to come out and say he's lying. But
you know, he's got the backing of like Harry Reid, who people have
interviewed, So that's substantial there for the verification. For UFO researchers, we're
probably not going to get it. We're just not privy to the information we
want or need to be able to verify some of this. For instance,
you know, debunkers have gone and looked at it and given some things like
ideas like their balloons or their drones or something like this, but you know,
we haven't seen the entire investigation what led them to believe that these are
unknown objects? And the fact is, and some people have gotten kind of
frustrated with his answer, but it's the truth. We probably we might not
be able to see that that information could be classified. So all we know
is that, you know, people at the Department of Defense and in the
military examine this, they couldn't figure out what it was, and that's all
we're going to be given. Luckily, we do have some witnesses. For
instance, when it comes to mimits, you know, there is of course
the pilot who's been out there to verify, Yes, we saw this,
and I think that it is something extraterrestrial, and and that's where some I
think gains can be made from what I understand with researchers. There are people
possibly speaking with witnesses. Got to verify these witnesses. So we may have
some more witnesses come forward and that would be great, But as far as
expecting to see documentation, hopefully TTSA will share some, but it's not looking
very positive that the Department of Defense is going to let anything out anytime soon
unless we get some sort of insider help on that. So well, okay,
alle hundred. Well we've kept Greg and the wings long enough. Yeah,
I know, so I apologize for that. One last point I would
make is that the good thing, though, is that the media has been
treating this very well. I mean, I think culturally it's been very important,
because culturally it's almost like people have accepted that the UFOs are real phenomena.
I mean, it feels like that change has been made. The media
no longer talks as skeptical about it. When they refer to it, they're
referring to the Department of Defense that they have found this to be a real
phenomena, and that's really important, I think. But I don't want to
keep you from Greg anymore because Greg is one of my favorite thinkers and interviews
in this arena. So I know this is going to be a great show.
All Right, Allure, thanks so much, and I'll be talking to
you next Thank you next week. All right, all right, you later.
So our guest Greg is coming right up. He has a podcast we're
gonna be talking about. He's been at this a long time, Great Books
Project Beta. Recently, when we were talking when I was out in Phoenix,
he gave me a defies language it's a lot of essays of things that
he's written on different blogs, mostly God, something in the middle. I'm
gonna have to ask him. He's gonna laugh, Greg, welcome to the
show. Hey, nice to be here. Can you hear me? Okay,
yeah, I can hear you. I don't know, okay, good.
Yeah, no, I'm just making sure because we're checking Mike's at the
beginning here, and I turned my regular mic back on and as long as
you hear me, that's great. Yeah. It was called um now,
I can't remember the name, but excluded in the middle, well, excluded
middle was the name of the magazine. Yeah. Yeah. The website,
the blog that I did along with Nick Redford was called you Mystic I did
not Yeah, yeah. So most of the stuff in that book is essays
from there, and then I wrote three new ones and I included I don't
know, four or five old ones that had never been seen before, and
a few other things that I'd written that I had never seen the light of
day. So it's it's it's a hodgepodge. It's just stuff I've been thinking
over the last what ten fifteen years something like that. And the other thing
is, like I would have an idea and somebody say, hey, Loo,
this great idea. I just came up with it. I'd be like,
I wrote about that ten years ago, so I put dates on everything.
Yeah, so I could I could remember what i'd written it, because
it's like I think I wrote about that like in two thousand and six.
Oh yeah, there it is. You know. One of the things I
totally agree with you on after listening to your podcast, which is great,
by the way, radio Mysterio. So is that how you say? Is
that the proper way to pronounce it? Yeah, I mean I'd pronounce it
like Spa because I grew up in southern California. Every everybody around here practically,
I mean, you know, Spanish if he lives here. So it's
more like radio sidioso. But radio masterios is fine too. Yeah. Yeah.
So one of the things you've I've heard you say, and I've said
it a number of times. Sometimes the weirder stranger things are, the more
believable they are. I totally, I totally understand you know where you're coming
from when you said that, because I agree. You know, the really
oddball ones, how how could they make up or why would they make it
up? You know that, Yeah, the stuff that doesn't fit. Yeah.
And the thing is that people try and force things into a narrative and
it's like, oh, well that's not a gray so or you know,
why did that person start having Poultergeist actor activity in their house before or after
a sighting? Stuff like that, stuff that doesn't fit, I think is
a real good clue as to what might be going on. Carlin Turner said
this a long time ago when an interviewed her. She said, I think
the anomalous stuff is where the gold. She said, So you shouldn't You
shouldn't push away things just because they sound weird or the narrative doesn't sound like
the standard one or whatever. You know, if somebody I've referred to this
case, but if somebody sees a giant, a four foot tall rabbit with
plaid first sitting in their plaid colored first sitting in their driveway after have a
UFO encounter, that's really important. I get it. It's it's crazy,
it's insane, but it is intimately connected to the experience. And if we
can find out why or why such an absurd thing might happen, what other
absurd things happen? We can maybe we can start to figure out things.
Besides where do they come from and all this, I don't think that's an
important question anymore. The important question is what causes UFO reports. Yeah,
that's true. Hey, Greg, I just wanted to let you know I
did have some questions come in. I'm going to be given those two later.
Also, we may take we may get some, we may take some
up her phone calls later, if you're right with that and about a half,
Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. So you know, one of the
things that I was thinking about, you know, we're talking earlier, ale
Jund and I about these Pentagon you know, the Pentagon situation and how that
seems to have changed some things M. But I found it. I found
it kind of curious. The other day, I was talking to my sister
and her husband. M was a scientist at Los Alamos Slabs for years in
the nuclear program there, and when I brought up to him casually one day,
I said, hey, you know, I'm doing a show in UFOs.
What do you think of that? Do you think it's crazy? Well,
he goes, well, I believe there's actually something to it. And
I was shocked. I was totally shocked. You know scientists would just say
something like that. He says that very well could be. And Betty might
not have said that five months ago. No, no, no, this
was this was a three or four years ago. So I'm bringing up bringing
up this case of the Pentagon because I told my sister the other day.
My sister, I know, she thinks I'm wacky. I mean, she
got on the wall over there, there's an alien crossing sign thing she sent
me for Christmas, and you know, she thinks I'm totally wacky talking about
the UFO topics. So the other day I had a conversation with her and
I said, hey, you know, the Pentagon's actually come out and says
that there they were taking a serious look at UFOs. What do you think
about that? She immediately, well, how's the weather there? She doesn't
want to talk about it. She just thinks she has her mind made up.
So one of the things I wanted I wanted to talk to you about
two tonight, somewhere along the line is a Robertson panel, because I know
that was in your book. And do you think this is a carry on
the way we all act about this topic from that, or do you think
that without that it naturally would have occurred. I'm trying to think how to
answer that. The Robertson panel basically said publicly that, um, it wasn't
important, There wasn't anything to it, and you know, the background was
it of it was we can't get people to panic because it's going to cause
you know, problems for maybe civic problems, maybe a headache for the Air
Force public relations. And then on top of that, it could be used
to buy enemies like the Russians. At that point to uh, there's something
strange could be used by enemies like the Russians to you know, to um
full to stabilize and infiltrade. I guess our military um. But at this
point, I don't think that what's going on with to the Stars really has
a lot to do with the government. It has mostly to do with to
the Stars. UM That's my impression. And I think what they're trying to
do, whether you trust them or not a with them or not or whatever,
I mean, I've I've got serious questions about their motivations, but I
think one of their motivations is that they want to make it okay for people
to talk about this, and you know, damned if they haven't done that,
So that's good. Yeah, you know, well, academics are talking
about it like like alle hundred, you said, the news the media is
talking about it, not snickering about it, So that's a step. Whatever
their endgame is, I have no idea. I don't. I don't think
their endgame is what they what they say it is. But we'll see.
You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna have one listener that's going to be extremely
happy hearing you say that, because he's been trying to get that message out
there. He thinks that it's it's two different things going on there, and
their motivation is he think believes their motivation is financial, and why is it?
Why do they have entertainment involved at all in the in the situation?
I think that's part of it. I mean, if you if you want
to say it's this thing and get happy or mad about it, I think
you're already off on the wrong foot because I think it's doing many things,
some of which you may agree with and may like and may think is a
good thing, and other things probably nobody really knows about except the people in
it, that you may not be happy about. So I don't know everybody
and everybody involved in it as former government, former former intelligence, And the
first thing I said when this came out was, why do you trust people
that you've never trusted before? Government lies? It's terrible. They're never going
to tell us the truth. Why should we believe anything they say? Okay,
let's tell you exactly what you want to hear. Oh, they're telling
the truth. That's wonderful. That's a mistake. I think it's It kind
of goes along with a line of I've heard you say in your show that
disclosure will not be disclosure unless it's exactly what someone wants to hear. So
yeah, philosophy, Yeah, yeah, won't be accepted as disclosure unless it's
exactly what somebody wants to hear. I mean, one thing that all these
announcements have been doing is reaffirming at the DUFO communities, or at least people
that are into it, they're deeply held beliefs, their idea about what's been
going on for a long time. It conforms to the myth that we've built
up about what all this is, or at least what we think it is.
When I say myth, I don't mean something that's a lie, I
mean something or that's made up. It's something that we all believe, or
a lot of people believe based on what's been going on, what's popular,
who has the best you know, who has the best story, who's the
most charismatic, and those stories are being supported seemingly almost one hundred percent by
some of these releases. And what some of these people are saying from to
the Stars that kind of worries me. It worries me when you hear exactly
what you want to hear that that should make you immediately wonder what's going on?
And nobody and a lot of people are, you know, they're kind
of mad about what they there's a vocal like, you know, a vocal
minority saying, you know what I'm saying, we should we should kind of
step back here. But a lot of people love it, they think it's
great. Um, but I urge caution. I also urge people not to
get neither excited nor mad, you know, just just kind of then out
listen to what's happening, see what's happening, and see what might come out
of it. Because the minute you start what's the word, the minute you
start getting excited by something's held up in front of your face. It looks
all fun. You're missing all the other stuff that's going around on around it
that might not be so loud and fun and all that. So that's what
I orige with a lot of people is just to be unemotional about it yet
interested. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's that's really a very good,
really really good advice I think. Um So I want to just first
of all, we didn't actually say who you were, m you've been on
the show before. I didn't think we really have to go there, and
so I will tell the listener that if you search on YouTube or on my
podcast on podcast ufo dot com Greg Bishop, we have an interview we did
and back in twenty sixteen, I think it was September twenty sixteen, So
that's on there, so you can find out all about Greg also on his
websites and his podcast. I highly recommend anyone to check out his podcast.
It really really is good. He's fun and people that his guests are great
as well. So that one of the questions that came in, what's your
opinion on how encounters have totally different experiences for individuals, more to the point
where some people do not perceive the same vision or don't even say see anything,
even though they may be standing right next to someone who does. That's
a good question. Uh, yeah, it's a great question. I think
it's right in my wheelhouse right now because that's something I'm working on at the
moment. It's I would say, it's odd to me. That's a horrible
thing to say. It's like, what, it's not obvious to you?
You must be insane. Um. What interests me right now is when somebody
has a weird experience, be it a UFO, abduction, wherever you want
to call it, even you know, ghosts, sees acrypted something like that,
what is going on in their mind? What is their mind trying to
do when they see something that makes no sense whatsoever to them? And I
think everybody's an individual, so everybody's going to have a different reaction. Um,
you know, some of them, most people, if if it's far
enough away, a lot of people have basically the same reaction. That's a
light doing weird things. But as things get closer, uh, and more
defined and weirder and more frightening, because it's right near you, I think
people's impressions and more importantly, their memories and what they remember from it,
what they talk about. Those start to diverge based on their personal you know,
their background, their DNA, they're bias, is their upbringing, what
they read in the paper that day, you know, what kind of day
they were having, what kind of problems are having in their life. All
these things enter into a mind trying to make sense of something that doesn't make
any sense. There's also issues of like what happens to a trauma victim?
How do they remember things? What does what does your mind and your perception
do when you're seeing something that is that you can't figure out if it's a
threat or not because you've never seen something like that. So I think what
accounts for this is that that divergence is just our individuality and how we react
to the whatever weird thing is happening in the environment at the time. I
hope that answers the question can you give an example of that? And are
you talking mostly about when when there's people that there's two different witnesses or what
are you talking about when they come up with a different a whole different scenario.
Yeah, there's there are instances where people come up with the different scenario
U. I have an example from a long time ago whereas somebody said that
there was a large rectangular UFO landed in front of them. I think this
was from Kentucky. Um, I wish, I wish I could be more
exact about it, but that one of the witnesses says there were, you
know, beings came out of it as big rectangular ufo looked like a I
don't know, maybe maybe look like the size of a bus. And the
other person said they saw a school bus with a lot of bunch of kids
in it going by. So you know, it'd be nice if I had
it, could have the newspaper and the date and all that to cite exactly.
But um, the fact that one of your listeners brought up that that
not everybody always sees the same thing, I think is evidence that there is
something going on that involves our consciousness and our way of thinking about things and
everybody's personality, et cetera. What I said earlier, it's coming through so
many different filters, and so since you have so many different filters, you're
going to get different impressions, different memories all that. And I think by
and large, a lot of researchers ignore that because it doesn't fit in with
a certain paradigm they have. For instance, and I've said this before,
this guy that told me the story of the rabbit, he told me apart
from the you know, some other things that went on with his investigation.
He said, I don't think that's important at all. It's just something silly
that happened, and we can ignore it. And I said, no,
it's not. That's the most important part of the the account. I think.
He said, yeah, but what do you do with that? And
I said, I don't know what you'd do with it, but it should
be it should be logged, it should be entered into the database and see
what can be done with it. I had my friend and Susan Saint Clair
on the show a few weeks ago, and I was we were talking about,
well, what do you do with these um subjective impressions? How do
you categorize something that's how do you quantify something that's that's a qualitative, you
know, how do you take somebody's impression and put it into a database and
what do you do with it? And I, you know, the answer
was, we're not exactly sure what you do with it? I mean what
you can do with it. But what she said was, I think if
you look to u cultural stories, myth archetypes, things that people things that
people use in different cultures to make sense out of the world. This might
be something that is important when people have a strange experience and don't filter what
they say and don't throw out anything they say. I think people are doing
this now. A lot of researchers are really listening to the witness and letting
them speak, which is good, right, you know, getting back to
the plat bunny someone to know what that symbolized. But I do get it
because you know, I mean, it's like I have Mike McClellan coming on.
He's been on before about owls. You know, while people see owls
and you know when they're se a UFO. And I actually talked to someone
in Native American country out in Arizona that never even talked about UFOs. It
was just someone like off the street, and they said a big owl came
after they saw a ufo. It's bizarre. And so I agree with you,
like that could be a clue to something else. So a question that
came in from chat is do you have any thoughts around some in academic in
the academic world debating whether we are living in a simulation. Is that something
you've ever talked about before, or I'm not sure. I think I've talked
about it, and i've It's part of what I'm interested in right now.
I think that if you look at reality as as based in information rather than
based in physics, which is a very big area and it still gives me
a headache to think about it, that there is an idea that the universe,
at its very base, our reality is composed of information that, by
our consciousness interacting with it an existing causes the real world to be created.
Now that sounds like solipsism, It sounds really silly. It sounds like something
a new age person would say. But it's also something that John Wheeler,
who was a Nobel Prize winning physicist, said about ten years before he died
in the nineteen nineties. He said, I think at the base of all
of our reality is information, and what we see as reality is the end
of a series of questions that we don't even realize we're asking about it and
forming it into what we think is real. And I was speaking to a
researcher about this, and he said, well, don't you see that in
a physical universe, a lot of this weird stuff just is weird. It
does It doesn't make any sense. There's no way to reconcile it with how
we look at reality, how we how we think of reality and physics.
But in a informational universe, it's almost imperative that weird stuff happens. Does
that make sense? Yeah, that's it. That is interesting. And also,
um, you know when you're talking about information, you know, it
just makes me first of all, Um, do you think there's like a
collective consciousness of people gathered and witnessing something or how how could something like that
happen when there's like say, a mass sighting of whether it's a UFO or
Bigfoot or whatever it is, and something really on the outside, something paranormal
that we're just not doesn't fit the normal realm you are. You're asking,
how, how is it if everybody has their own subjective in person impression,
how is it that a lot of people see the same thing in certain situations?
I think that the people. I think that's because sometimes people see interpret
things the same way and sometimes they don't. If you're standing there talking to
a bunch of people and you say, and you're giving a lecture, thirty
percent of the people are thinking one thing. Thirty percent of people are thinking
another thing. Although if you talk about something that everybody has experience with or
knows about, even on a subconscious level, I think they're all pretty much
following in the same way that you're They're always all thinking about the same thing
at the same time. But when you start talking about something that they don't
all have experience with, it starts diverging. So if people can, you
know, a group of people can put the whatever it is in front of
them in the UFO box, I think that the UFO box works for them
and that they have some agreement on it. Also, you know, they
talk about it later. Are you seeing what I'm seeing? They describe it
to each other, and just by talking about it and coding it in language
and trying to make sense of it. I think these memories are codified and
created that way. I mean it's um I gave a lecture and also wrote
a piece for Reframing the Debate the UFOs Reframing the Debate book where I address
this specifically in regards to how lawyers are having problems now with witness testimony because
it can be coerced, it can be changed, it can be um.
It is subject to the questioner quite a bit. So it's it's hard to
you know, give a good get a good exact account, because the person
is not going to remember it exactly as it happened, because our brains do
and this has been proven, our brains and our nervous systems are not recording
devices that whatever something happens, your brain and your your nervous system and your
your memory and all that is figuring out how to use this memory as something
useful later, um, not as something that happened and recording it saying that's
what happened. Your consciousness pays attention to what is important to you and what
you can use later UMU. Such a like if you're, if you if
you have if you have a bad relationship and you break up, you and
the other person are not going to remember it the same way because you have
different impressions of it, and both of you could be wrong, both of
you could be right, who knows, or both of you could be you
know. Um it's usually somewhere in between. The two impressions. But the
thing is that the memory of it is being is being encoded in your mind
and the way that makes the most sense to you, and it can help
you in the future, Like I'm going to avoid this kind of person in
the future, so I'm going to remember it this way. You're not thinking
of it that way. But I think that's how it works. And I
think that some of the same stuff is going on with paranormal experiences. And
I'm not saying people make things. That's one thing I've given this talk and
a few people have said, well, you're saying that people make everything up
and it doesn't exist, and you're a debunker. It's like that that is
not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is something weird happens.
But I don't know if our memories and our everything that we used to record
that that impression is that accurate, especially with something that you can't produce on
demand. Like everybody knows what if somebody runs into somebody with a car um.
Everybody pretty much knows what that is. But you know, having something
strange walking into your bedroom at night, not everybody has that experience, and
you can't have it on demand. So there's there's some divergence about what's going
on. I mean there has to be because people don't have a frame of
reference for it. Am I making sense? Yeah? But you know what
about people that are considered to be the trained observer, you know, say,
uh, say like a military pilot, or say an astronaut or a
police officer. You know, these are all what they call trained observers.
If you're saying not right, and I've had this happened, I was,
I forgot what course I was taking where and what, But I would I
had this situation where someone came into a room and they did something real quickly
and then left, and then you know, like five minutes later, the
person running the course said, all right to say exactly what you just saw,
you know, and you know, some people said he had a brown
shirt. He said he had a blue shirt. You know, I mean
it was really it was actually kind of funny. So but if you're actually
trained to identify something that's you're you know, what you've been trained to do.
I think it's a little different than our mind does more becoming tuned with
recording what we're seeing. Unless yeah, yeah, well they're trained observers in
the observations of what they expect. If it's something that they don't expect,
I think their mind's going to say, well, it's this thing and everything
will follow from that idea. Or if they have no idea, maybe they
just you know, hopefully they just give subjective impressions. How I also noticed
another thing. The closer an encounter is the more it affects people, you
know what I mean. It seems to be have more an effect on their
memories, their psyche and everything. The closer the encounter is, if you
just see a light flying through the sky, most people are going to agree
that there's a light fling that's through the sky. But if something starts to
approach you, I think that the impressions that people have and their memories start
to diverge at that point, unless they talk about it later and then they
all kind of agree what that memory is and their minds say, okay,
we all experience this thing. But I bet if you could separate people during
a close encounter and ask them all different all the same questions, you would
get divergent accounts, maybe widely divergent accounts. Well, you know, I
talk to someone that not you know another person I love talking to people by
the way, that you casually meet somewhere and you bring up the UFO topic
and someone in the room and saying, yeah, well I saw one,
you know, and they talk about it, and so what about this just
is reminding me of a person I spoke to and she said that her aunt
kept saying it was an airplane, it was an airplane. She said,
no, that ain't no airplane. It's how she put it. And so
what about that person that's expecting to see an airplane and then realize this is
something else? How do you how does that fit in your philosophy? Well,
your mind is going right back and forth, constantly going what is that?
What is that? What is that? What is that? You're trying
to figure that out. We know that from talking to people and they're trying
to come up with an explanation. Now, at some point, some people
will be able to come up with an explanation and say whatever, or their
mind says, I really can't handle that. This is unknown. So I
know that's an airplane, so that's going to be an airplane for them.
But other people may not be so sure, and they'll say, I've you
know, I'm trusting my eyes and it doesn't look like anything that I've ever
seen before, so I don't know what that was. It's it's funny because
I get to this point where people say, well, people aren't you know,
you're saying people aren't seeing what they say they're seeing, and they're they're
they're they're they're just uh, what's the word, they're just being inaccurate about
it. My response is they're being as accurate as they possibly can. But
we have to realize that, UM, it is affected by how they feel
about it. Who else is there with the time of the day. It
is what kind of person they are. Are they completely not interested in the
subject? Have they never? You know? Are they totally interested in UFOs?
It's it's all subjective when it's going on, which is why it's important,
I think to get all these objective impersonations from impersonations, impressions from people,
UM, no matter how insane they might see because seem because it's it
will help UM, it will help us, I think, to a greater
understanding what's going on. I see some of the people in the in the
forums, you're saying, you know, I know what I saw It's like,
I'm not saying you didn't see what you saw. I wasn't there.
I'm watching the chat now, Yeah, is that what you're saying. Yeah,
yeah, it'd be nice. You'd be nice to Greg in the chat
room. Okay, No, nobody's being rude. They just have questions and
they're saying, well, how can that be? I know what I saw.
It's like, I would never tell somebody you didn't see that. What
I would What I would say is that is your impression that should be edited
into the database. And I you know, I honor that you saw what
you say you saw, but I don't know what it was. I wasn't
standing there. Neither you know, and neither was the researcher who talks to
you or your friends that you tell about later. So, speaking of that,
have you actually ever seen UFO? Yeah, a couple of times,
but never close enough to be exciting. I saw a light over Death Valley
or Near Death Valley. It appeared to be over the Mercury Test site,
you know where all the in Nevada where all the atomic bombs were set off
in the fifties and sixties, I think seventies. I think they stopped in
the seventies. But yeah, I was driving a death Valley like three in
the morning. One time I said, this really really bright white light.
I couldn't even tell how far away it was, but if I had to,
you know, estimate, it was probably over the border in Nevada,
which was over the Mercury Test site, or you know, maybe an airy
area fifty one or something. It did not move. It just sat there.
It was really bright. It was not a star, and it was
there for a few hours and now maybe it's one o'clock and so like four
in the morning. After looking at it for a while, going back in
my hotel room, coming back out and looking at it. Finally one time
I came out and it wasn't there anymore. I looked at it through binoculars
and it just looked like a blob. It just looked like a bright blob.
But the thing is, it's so far away through the atmosphere is making
it look like that. But it wasn't an airplane because it didn't move,
and it wasn't a star because a star, and you know, the background
stars moved over those four hours in the moon moved, but the spot didn't.
So it was something that was floating in the air. The other thing
I saw was a very strange shape near the Santa Barbara Airport near Sunset,
I don't know about maybe eight or nine years ago, and I described it
in it defies language. What I saw. It made no sense to me.
It just looked like it looked like a big black thing made out of
six looked like black like hexagonal tubes, as if they were giant pencils.
It was about a quarter mile away from me, it looked, and they
were arranged like a like a wheel, but with no rim around. It
was just the spokes of a wheel, and one side of it had black
a black line, and little little had black rectangles along the line. And
some people said, well, maybe it was a kite, and it's like,
I don't think it was a kite because it was stock still. It
did not move. And the funny thing was, I was just in a
private play that took off over right where that thing was an hour before,
and it wasn't there then, so I called. I called the control tower
the next day. The dumb thing was as I saw it from a quarter
mile away, and then I went home. I don't know why I did
that. It's like, oh, that's very weird. I guess I better
go home now. So, and this is what happens to a lot of
people. They see something very strange and their mind doesn't register that it's something
very strange that they should investigate or pay attention to. And that's what my
mind did. I mean, I've been looking at the stuff for years and
I suddenly finally see something extremely weird in the sky and I leave. And
it wasn't that high in the sky either. It was like maybe a one
hundred feet off the ground. It might have been eighty or one hundred feet
across, and it was about a quarter mile away from me, floating over
a salt marsh next to the beach, near the end of a runway at
Santa Barbara Airport. I called the control tower the next day and they said,
we had no reports of anything like that. It's like, really,
it was right there. It was completely visible. You would have seen it
from the control tower easier than me. But they said, nope, nothing
like that. Isn't that something? Well, I actually know someone, a
friend who their whole family had a UFO sighting and it was really strange.
These things like were hovering over power lines and going up and down and like
not really moving going, you know, just up and down basically, And
so the whole family got bored and went inside except for her, you know,
they're like, oh, oh that's cool, and just went inside like
they had enough of it, and for about five minutes. And that was
another one that lasted a long time. Yeah, I think it's because people
somewhere in their mind people saying, I really can't make any sense of this,
so it just kind of Dean Rayden told me this when I talked to
me, says, well, I think a lot of weird things happened to
people, but they have no place to put it in their minds. It
just kind of falls off the table, which is why you hear people saying,
remember that time where we saw that thing, or you know it was
real that big light came in the room and a group of people will not
talk about something for years, or you won't talk about something for years,
and suddenly something your memory, you think of it, and you know the
explanation for that, As Raydon told me, he thought, was well,
your mind has no place to put it. There's no drawer to put it
in, so it just falls off the table until something jogs your memory again
many years later, which is another strange thing that happens with this phenomenon.
Right, I'm going to get to another one of these questions we have here
with regards to alleged abduction encounters. The norm is that ets are interested in
our biology and give physical examinations. Do you think this is much deeper in
and that they may be more interested in our emotional response, consciousness, or
our souls. That's another question that came in through email. Yeah, I
think Carla Turner said that a long time ago. I don't know what happens
during abductions. I have no idea. Nobody has a video of it or
anything like that, or at least anything where they can say this is exactly
what happened. But from the subjective experience of people that have gone through it,
it seems like it's more intimately intimately connected to what humans are, what
we are doing, and how we feel about things than any kind of biological
experiment or anything like that, which leads me to believe that it has nothing
to do with, you know, scientists coming here to do anything, but
has more to do with um what we look like to something else that's not
us, if that makes sense. So, you know, and I don't
know. I don't know what that thing is. I'm not going to say
it's aliens from other planets or anything. Um, it's it's it's I think
it's it's a subjective experience, and it's been I think it's been changed by
researchers trying to figure out what it is and telling people what it is.
Um, you know, you've been at this a real long time, and
I have a lot of friends that I talked to quite often that also have
been at it a very long time. Do you sometimes get frustrated? I
knows it going way off our topic. Do you get frustrated and say,
sometimes you just want to hang your hat up on the whole UFO thing.
That's what. Yeah, the friends say, Yeah, a lot of people
come in to have that happened. There's like, Okay, that's it.
I don't want anything to do with it anymore. And then they come back,
Um, Jim Moseley had that happened. Don Ecker had that happened to
him. There's there's so many people that just get sick of it because,
you know, I think one it's a it's an insane thing to be interested
in and it'll drive you crazy. Um. Two, I think the phenomenon
in some way access is part of our mind that it's not stable, you
know what I mean. It's a destabilizing thing to be interested in this stuff.
Um And but the thing is, if you've got a certain mindset where
you're into it, you can't get away from it. I haven't heard too
many people walk away from it and never come back. There's still some interest.
I had Jeff Ritzmond on my show and he was saying that, uh,
you know the UFO encounter or whatever it is that you're encountering with the
with in this in this area seems to thrive on and he calls, you
know, it's part of the trickster archetype. But it seems to thrive on,
Uh, things that aren't stable and you know liminal states, like people
have these things happening to them when they're uh, when during a divorce or
something else is going on in their life that's that's not stable. Or if
something they do have a stable life and this happens to them, it completely
destabilizes them. So it's it's it's not something to be messed with. If
you want, you know, if you want to at least in a very
intimate way, if you want a you know, a quiet, normal,
not very exciting life. I've never really thought of it that way. I've
thought of my interests in the topic is almost an optimistic one in a way
of um, you know, listening to what people have to say, but
also thinking, you know, it's possible we're not alone and um so and
it's possible. Not such a boring world, you I mean, there's there's
a lot of things, you know, make me interested in it that I
don't necessarily think unstable. But all right, so you're talking about people that
always come back. What about your friend Bill Moore? I know, you
know there was kind of the incident back. Um what year was that where
eight nineteen eighty nine? And I know you're good friends with Bill, so,
um so what about him? He has no interest at all in coming
back? Correct? Yes, correct, Um, he's one person that escaped
it. He just decided that he was sick of the noise, um and
that what he had been through he could not explain to people. And he
actually also said, look, if I had to do it over again,
I wouldn't be so arrogant about it, which he has. You know,
he's like he admitted to me, but his frustration stem from I am doing
these things, I am researching these things, I'm talking to these people,
I'm looking at these documents, and people are coming in and yelling at me,
giving, you know, criticizing me for things that I've never said,
never done, and do not intend to do, and never had into.
They're saying, why do you why did you do this? Well, I
didn't do that. Why do you seem to think this way? Well,
I don't think that way. And he said that happened over and over and
over and over and over, and he just got tired of the emotional reactions.
That's another thing about the UFO thing. There. I was talking to
somebody that is, you know, he's got his foot in the ghost community
and the Bigfoot community and all that. He said that the UFO community seems
to have the most rapid fights about about what's going on. And we're trying
to figure out why is it that the UFO community and the UFO subject inspires
such emotional reaction at such an emotional connection. And I think it's because it's
you can't really pin it down you know, Bigfoot's big Foot a ghost as
a ghost, but a UFO, it's it's it's many different things and people
can't agree on it. And I think there's actually something about the subject itself
or the source of it, whatever intelligence is behind her or whatever, that
just doesn't mesh with our rational minds very well. And we try to be
rational people, so it messes with that. Does that make sense? Yeah,
we have a caller on the line. Caller, your first name and
where are you calling from. It's Andy from Stratford calling again. Hi,
Andy, Welcome to the show. Do you have a question for our guest
tonight? Not a question, guys, but a story. And I've really
only told the story just a few times in my life. In the early
nineties, when I was in college, I was in the Army National Guard
in New Hampshire and we were training over in Vermont, near Mount Stowe and
the Ethan l in firing range, and about I was in my early twenties.
This happened about I'm gonna say four o'clock in the morning. We were
on night maneuvers and we were waiting for the enemy to attack us, and
it was very quiet, and then all of a sudden, the shooting began,
but it began on the other side of our perimeter, so we my
buddy and I knew we weren'ting to see any fighting. And within a few
moments of the gunfire and our artillery rounds and everything starting, a green,
glowing ball came out of the woods towards us. We watched it approach,
We watched it cross our path and then go off into the distance about the
speed of a dog might run. It was maybe fifteen twenty feet off the
ground, about forty feet away from us, and it was a glowing like
a sickly green, almost like a glow stick that's dying, and it was
dodging tree brandes, and it was intelligently controlled. And the two of us
watched to go by as plain as day, and both looked at each other
and said, what the hell was that? And it stuck with me my
entire life. I'll never explain it. And it was just so bizarre,
and yet it was right there in front of me, as plain as could
be. And he saw it, you know, my buddy, the guy
that was with me, saw it, and I've just never forgotten it.
And years later I thought I saw a similar green light once, and every
nerve in my body went into alert. It scared the scared the hell out
of me, and I broke into a sweat, and you know, it
was a false alarm, but I couldn't believe how badly it scared me to
think that I was about to see it again. And I've seen some other
weird stuff, but that's definitely the weirdest one. So was it just two
people that, just two people that witnessed it, or was it the whole?
Yeah, myself and myself and one other guy. I was a sixty
gunner and this guy was my assistant gunner. We were in a foxhole.
The sun was just kind of becoming twilight, and you know, we had
night vision goggles with us and stuff. I didn't even think to use them.
It all happened so quickly. But this thing was silent and it was
I mean, I'll never forget it. It's burned into my mind. And
that opened me up to the idea that there's so much more to our reality
than we are want to admit or most people can cope with. Well,
very good, that's it. That's that's my story, all right, all
right, thanks for the call. Thank you that that was a great story.
I liked it. Yeah, no problem, Yeah, you're welcome.
Good good show, except for the buffering, but who knows. Yeah,
all right, I hope it's not still doing that, but it's Chinese hackers.
I'll I'll let you go Martin. All right, thank you, Yeah,
yep, all right, all right. Um yeah, that's uh.
I love to hear like military type uma incidents. I know there's at least
one of those in your book. I think I saw something in there.
Uh yeah, um, so those are those are great? Yeah. Ball
of light phenomena has been going on for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years,
probably longer um. And uh it's there, you know, all countries,
all cultures, um. And it still happens now. And there's a
lot of theories about what these balls of light might be. What he describes
actually also sounds and I don't say that this is what it is, but
it sounds like when people describe ball lightning, it seems like it has an
intelligence to it and we'll dodge around things, and so who knows what these
things are? Ball lightning they think is some sort of electric plasma, but
there's other forms of what are they called bols? Balls of light? Um,
all kinds of different colors. A lot of them tend to be kind
of kind of a reddish or a peachy color. I've heard a lot of
those. But yeah, that's that's um. Who knows what's going on with
that, But it's a and what controls them or what's behind them, or
there's just a natural phenomena or there some kind of consciousness that appears as a
ball of light to us. Who knows. Now, you actually had in
your book somewhere where um, there was some type of military program where they
were experimenting with pulses, plasma pulses. Did you think there was actually something
to that? You know, I'm trying to remember what that remember that what
that was? Well, I know your book. It was something done in
the nineteen nineties, I think in maybe Kirkland or somewhere. Um. Oh,
it might have had something to do with um, what's that called crossed
lasers. They would cross them in the atmosphere and where the lasers crossed,
the air would be superheated to the point where it would create a It would
push the matter into the fourth form of matter, which is a plasma solid
liquid gas and plasma, and the air would become superheated and turn into a
plasma and cause these balls of light. Yeah, I think that's what you're
referring to. People said, you know, you wrote about this thing.
It's like, well, I don't remember. And they said, well,
how can you not remember you wrote about it? And I said, can
you remember a conversation you had ten years ago. It's sometimes it takes me
a little bit to remember what I wrote about, but that's what I seem
to remember. And that they had created some sort of a filter on these
laser beams so that when they did meet at a certain point in the air,
that the crossed beams would create a ball of plasma, or they could
cross them at you know, at a missile or something like that be able
to shoot it down. Now they've got lasers. They're so uh so powerful
that they can just use one laser and shoot down a missile. It's been
um there's there's videos of it online actually, and they've they've got airborne lasers.
Now. That's what they were testing at Curtland for a while. The
problem was they couldn't get enough power to get the laser to to uh to
to to um to be able to destroy anything. But now they've got they've
got they've miniaturized everything. They've got bigger batteries. I guess they use capacitors
and they charge them up and then they do a laser pulse with all this
power on it, and then immediately they start charging up the capacitors again so
they can throw another laser pulse out. So it's it's gotten to the point
where they can just they have a little ball on the front of the plane
with a with a mirror in it and they can point it, you know,
three hundred Well not right at the plane obviously, but uh, it
has a great arc, and so they can actually track a missile or something
like that and actually damage it enough to destroy it. So they basically have
they have death rays. Amazing. Finally, Tesla would be proud. Um,
we have another caller on the line. Caller, where are you calling
from? And your first name? Please? Hey Martin? Um, Hi
Greg? Can you hear me? Okay, yeah, yeah, you can
speak up a little though, Okay. Good. Um. So I'm Jay
Allen from San Diego at the moment, Welcome to the show. Do you
have a question for our guests? Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, so
I was gonna I'm gonna sort of call in and tell you a story.
Also, um as a trained observer, if that's the cay um, because
that seems to be sort of a key word, and every time I hear
it, I'm like, man, there are so many trained observers out there
that a lot of us, uh, you know, the position that I
was in. It made it impossible to actually file a report or do anything
about it. But I can tell you, I can tell you a story.
It's just can't it just can't be official, you know what I mean?
So, um yeah, just real quick, not to brag, but
I'm just going to tell you a little bit of my bio. I'm a
military veteran. I was in the Air Force. I went to air traffic
control school, went to flight school, became an aerospace engineer. I have
twenty two years in aerospace at this point and I'm still in it today,
active, and I can tell you that I work on the tip top of
the iceberg of the technology that we know about today. I mean, we
work on darker programs, the highest level stuff that we know. If it's
out there before I I don't know if everybody's heard of lockeed S gun courts,
but Boeing also has a Boeing also has a division called Dantam Works,
and that's why I work. It's basically it's basically the classified, you know,
R and D programs out there. But I happen to be out in
oddly enough, Nevada Test Range and we were at Creech Air Force Base.
It was about probably about four years ago when this happened. And I don't
know if you guys know, but Creeches in Indian Springs, Nevada, and
it's just on the other side of the mountain from Area fifty one, and
we were doing some night operations there. I'm not going to tell you what
we were doing, but we were doing to night operations there with about eight
other military personnel and we happened to step outside of our skiff and there are
these just super bright orbs. I think we were just talking about orbs,
but there were super bright orbs outside, so bright that we thought that they
were helicopters, literally sitting a spotlight directly at us. But there was no
you know, there was no circle on the ground where the spotlight would hit.
It was just you know, that's that's that was our first impression because
we're in military airspace, and then we life that, guess what, it's
midnight. There's no flight operations allowed after ten pm because the civilians are around
and noise ordinance, so we've got to assume that, you know, if
it's if it's a flight operation, then it's unauthorized, or if it's or
at special ops. But there is zero sound. I don't know if you've
been in the desert at midnight when there's no flight operations and no traffic,
you can hear. You can hear miles and miles away. You can hear
a cricket eight miles away probably, But these we thought they were helicopters until
they started rotating and doing these maneuvers. They're literally hovering, but there was
no sound. They were just the brightest thing we've ever seen. And they
started rotating around each other, which which is how we knew it was impossible
to be a helicopter because you have this thing called ground effect and rotor wash.
So if you have a helicopter go on top of another helicopter, just
not get right out of the sky. And I have no idea why they
would be circling around each other, these orbs, but they were, and
it was right in front of us, and it could so they were hovering
with no sound. Anything halvering is going to be a helicopter. And but
at the same time, we know for sure from helicopter flight dynamics that it's
impossible for them to do that without destroying each other. So had to have
been something else, especially with there being zero sound about it. And you
know, my point was not just to tell the story about to say there's
a lot of trained observers out there, and yet perception is definitely the skeptical
argument is hugely valuable, and we have to consider perception within all the people
who were telling stories. You know, one person saw this, and then
the person saw this. Yeah, that's that's all totally true also, but
eventually we have to reach a threshold where we have enough trained observers telling a
similar story where we have to really consider that there's something going on and it's
not perceptual misidentification, it's not displacement or sublimation. There really is something out
there that even even trained observers can't explain. I'm not trying to say what
it was, I'm just going to say that I work in the highest level
of technology that I'm aware of. I mean and a classified and I still
have clearances, and there's something out there that we're not aware of in our
program that could be true, but I mean, based on the flight dynamics
of these things, I just can't imagine what it could be. Um.
I'm just saying that there's got to be a threshold where enough people like be
come out and we have to admit, yeah, we need more investigation,
and we should, we should, and some instances move away from the perception
actual accountability and go into you know, more investigation. But yeah, well,
the point is that there's been thank you so much, there's been a
lot of investigation. I think the investigation has to be taken over by people
who are more professionally trained. And I'm sorry if I gave the impression that
people don't see what they're seeing. I think there's something very strange going on
in the skies, has been going on for many years, and that many
people see them. The problem is that it's really hard for us to categorize
what's going on. However, there are steps being taken, like, you
know, let's take a video of what's going on and see what colors are
being omitted by these things. What does that tell us about their flight,
about their dynamics, and how they might be doing what they're doing. This
stuff is very important, and I think at this point in a lot of
ways, it should be taken out of the hands of people who are hobbyists
and into the hands of people that are more professional, have the equipment,
have the training, and all that to start looking at this in a different
way. Yeah, excellency, all right, well, thank you for the
call. Thank you, you're welcome. Thanks guys, all right, huh,
all right, So if anyone else wants to call in, um,
please give a question to the guests. We do like hearing stories and occasionally
there will be a time where the guest has to leave earlier something like that,
and would love to hear your story. No problem at all. But
for right now, anyone that wants to call in the number, please call
in for a question for our guests. Speaking of that, another question that
came up here. Have you had a change of opinion on this subject from
when you first started writing about it too up to present day? Who hasn't,
right? Yeah? Yeah, I think everybody has. At first,
I think there was a lot of people It's like, well, it's it's
aliens coming from other planets, in structured crap. Now I'm not so sure
about that. It just that explanation does not explain all the stuff we've been
talking about here, the weirdness, the repetition, um, all kinds of
you know, why is it happening so much? Um? Is it because
we've got a different perception of time than they do. We just think it's
happening all the time. They've only seen us twice. I have no idea,
but um, I'm convinced that whatever is doing this, it's not us.
It's something else with with a with a with a thinking consciousness and being
able to reason and perceive things. Um. Other than that, I'm not
sure. Oh we got a call her? We haven't. Oh you saw
it this time? Yes, I call it your first name? Where you're
calling from? That's Bobby. Oh Bobby, I've met Bobby up. I
don't know. We're going about five years ago now, Yeah, in North
Carolina. He's a I've been listening to the show before and ever since.
UM, long time listener. So, Bobby, how you doing? You
have a question for Greg. I know you like Greg, You've you've mentioned
that before. Yeah, I'm doing great. Then Greg was great. And
it's snowed today, first day of spring and we got snow, so I
don't want to hear you bitching about your fourteen feet of snow that you get.
But it's been raining all day here, but that's California. Yeah,
yeah, well it's funny it's melted. Before I looked forward, I had
a question for Greg. Sure. Well, first of all, I heard
that the two stars Blink one eighty two Academy got two more videos recently,
but they hadn't released them yet, and I think I've read somewhere that he
was kind of dubious about the whole release of the videos. I wanted his
thoughts on that. And the other thing was like the just not too long
ago last fall, some pictures were released allegedly by some guy who's out an
area in fifty one and got pictures of a UFO that looked really clear with
the helicopter the background that was actually analyzed by Bruce mccabee. And there's like
different people are saying different things about it. Some people think and it's legit,
and then other people are like, well, it's too good to be
true. It's it's just it's a paradox. You know, if you get
a really good, clear picture of something, well it's fake. And if
you get a blurry picture, then it's just a light in the sky.
So that's that's what I had to say about that. Yeah, we sort
of discussed earlier about to the Stars, but I don't know if there's anything
else you want to add to what you've talked about before, Greg, Yeah,
I think with the regards to video and pictures, I think we've got
enough video and pictures at this point that we know that there's that people occasionally
take pictures and video of things and film of things that are unexplained and are
truly unexplained that I don't think there's any question about that. I think what
the what to the Stars is trying to do is saying, look, this
came from the military. It's unexplained, and we have to you know,
we're trying to force the authorities to acknowledge that there's unexplained things in the sky,
which they never really have for I mean, I think that's part of
their goal, and I think it's a great goal that I think the videos
are are singularly unimpressive to me. It's it's like, well, there's dots
in the sky doing stuff and they're traveling at strange speeds. But the thing
is, if you're into UFOs, or actually most of the public, they
already know of that stuff happens. I think that's what this is aimed at,
is the media and academia and science and all that, and how they
should probably take this a little more seriously. So with that part of their
propaganda machine, I totally agree with them. What I don't know is,
besides that, why they're doing it. I think they're trying to get something
out of the technology, figure out what this technology is and exploit it in
some way. That is great as long as it's open and everybody is everybody
has access to the information. But I don't think that's I don't think that's
their idea. It's part of I think they're trying to throw a wide net
and find out if how much people know about this ari you know, the
alloys or whatever you want to call them, and how these can be used
to further our understanding of physics and and flight, and that they don't really
care if it's aliens or coming from another planet or anything like that. All
they care about is how do these things work? And how can we how
can we use what we see to reproduce some of these uh, some of
these characteristics. Do you know anything else more about the meta materials that allegedly
or held in some warehouse by Bigelow? No, I'm not. I did.
I'm not privy to it. I did how putoff was on Coast to
Coast a few weeks ago with George Knapp. I happened to be listening because
I was working that night, so I was listening, um, and he
actually said something. He said, well, it's not really alloys. It's
a bunch of different materials layered in such a way that it is impossible with
our technology right now to do. That's what he says. This material is.
Well, other people say it's alloys composed of things that you know are
not. Um. The isotopes aren't the same or not in the same ratios
that they are in any manufacturing uh process we have here on earth. Um.
His idea was that it was some sort of layered material like layer upon
layer upon layer put together in a way that wasn't you know it bonded like
atomically or something, and that was that's what was interesting to them, And
I don't The other thing is, I don't know if they ever going to
let that stuff out, you know, for for for open Uh. That's
one thing that worries me. Why isn't that stuff openly let out so that
uh um a you know, somebody that a public institution or research facility can
take a look at that. They're not letting that stuff out. That that
kind of bothers me. Well, in that part alone, I think Bigelow
is involved, and he's always been pretty cautious about revealing things, for instance,
skin Walker Ranch, you know, anything he's been involved with, he
kind of wants to keep, you know, a close a close hold on.
I don't know. Um, I do think that if there's something to
release and it's important, you know, I mean if the he paid for
it, Yeah, he paid for it, and it's his right. I
just we don't have to agree with him. Yeah, I think this stuff
should be made public, but um, all you can do is say,
well, that's not fair. Well, it kind of is because he paid
for it. Well, actually, this I'm not sure if he actually did
or if this was actually part of the twenty two million that was spent.
Yeah, you know, from the he's probably spent an equal amount or more
than that twenty two million that was given to him. Who knows. Yeah,
but that's that's another thing. If some of this was there's another argument
I've heard from people. This is public money, it should be public knowledge.
And I don't want to keep going, but I wanted to touch off
on some of those just thinking about a few years ago. I actually saw
a video on YouTube and it was a Scout Works spokesman of some time,
and he was literally saying on YouTube that they were this close to have infusion
power, which means you could have a compact power source with crazy amounts of
energy which you would use for something like lasers in the sky to shoot down
missiles and other stuff that I found it really interesting, and the guy looked
really nervous in the video. But I don't know if it's still on YouTube,
but he was a scunt Works guy and he was actually literally saying that
they would have refrigerator sized fusion machines soon, and it was just odd.
Yeah. Well, also, either either he's revealing something which he shouldn't reveal,
or he's revealing it because somebody said, let's just put this out there
and see what happens for some reason or another, to see what the reaction
is, or you know, see who starts talking about it or whatever.
Yeah, I think they're fairly close to fusion. They say ten years.
They've been satans for a while, but ten years away from a working system.
But it's not portable. I mean their ideas that it's it's got to
be housed in this giant thing, that electromagnetic field that holds the plasma and
suspended in the air so it doesn't touch anything because it's you know, eight
gazillion degrees um. I don't know if they've been able to miniaturize that yet
to the point where they could carry it and you know, use it as
a power source. Something. Sound like it would be small. He made
it sound like you could have him every ten blocks in a neighborhood. Yeah,
well, we have to take it under it we'd have to take it
under advisement because the guy there's no there's no supporting evidence for that. So
it's just kind of like, well, that's an interesting piece of information.
Let's stick it in our pocket and see what comes up later. Yeah,
okay, guys, thank you a great show, all right. I know,
thanks Bobby. I know you didn't really answer the question he had also
on that Did you happen to see the sighting he was talking about with the
helicopter very clear image. I'm not familiar with that. No, I haven't
seen it up. Go ahead. Somebody came out that it was somewhere and
ended up near Area fifty one, and I think he was working there and
actually took pictures. I believe it's on Open Minds. But the picture of
a UFO it's silver and black with the helicopter in the background. You can't
trust anything on that site. Yeah, I know. I can't believe you
hang out with that guy. I don't know what he's doing. Yeah.
For people listening to this show and people that are into this, I think
they already assume that the stuff goes on and they don't need more pictures.
It's already been proven to me. You everybody listening to this show practically that
there is something strange flying through the sky, and no matter how many times
you show it to your skeptical friends, it's not going to make any difference
to them, which is why usually photos don't interest me. Photos and video
don't interest me. What interests me more right now is where is the stuff
coming from? Why are people reporting it? What causes a UFO report,
What stimulus causes a UFO report. Anything from a hallucination to aliens coming from
other planets. It's a lot and other things we haven't even thought of.
It's all along that spectrum, I think, and nothing should be thrown out.
People seem to think that I'm against the et hypothesis. I'm not.
It's just it's not as interesting to me as some of the other ideas.
Yeah, I've got a bunch of good stories on Martin's blog on his website
there. Actually he's got a new blog there where actually you can just report
a UFO. So I've got several of mine in there. If you're said,
there's some some interesting stuff. And thanks again, good night, all
right, good night, yeah, thanks. Yeah. Well, let's see,
I just wanted to get and make sure I got to all these questions
from this one gentleman. Do you think our brains are locked, so to
speak, so that we don't have perception of paranormal entities? But some unique
individuals have this gift and are able to. Yeah, definitely, I think
I look at it in a way. I was talking here's Dean Raydon again.
I was talking to him about what he says. Everybody's psychic, just
some of them. Some of us aren't very good at it. Um.
So I think everybody has this perception to be able to see these weird things,
just some of them are better than others. Some people have a better
natural talent through whatever, through genetics or where they grew up or whatever the
hell, or maybe some a finger came down from the heavens and touched them
and said you're the person that can see these things. I'm not sure,
but you know, what did he What did you say? So there are
there are only a few psychic Michael Jordan's and I think there's there's tendencs.
Yeah, there's there's tendencies in the in the in the population for some people
to see things that others cannot. And the people that do see things and
experience things have a really hard time explaining it to people that don't see them
and don't experience them. And you know it's like the people will say,
well, I didn't see that, so it doesn't exist. Well, that's
not fair because you're not that person that experienced that thing. You have to
you know, sure, there's a lot of people that make things up or
embellish or whatever, but you can't deny that people see and experience strange things.
And sometimes people are okay with it and sometimes they're not. And if
they're not okay with it, it's kind of the researchers job to let them
unload about what they've seen and what they feel about it, just so they
can sort of integrate it into their into their worldview, if you know what
I mean. Greg, you're talking about video a minute ago. You don't
really care to look at video or pictures. I think it may have been
on your show. Did I hear you talk about some type of new editing
software that allows you to like bring I like, anybody can do it and
you don't have to be like an Adobe Photoshop or anything like that. You
can just pull a picture in or pull a video into another video something like
that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if it was me, but
yeah, I know about that. It's it's a software you can get for
free online. It's I think it's either called deep fake or it's the it's
the way the videos made are called deep fakes, So you can put anybody's
face on anybody and make them say or do whatever that's something they never did.
Um to varying degrees of success. I think if you have enough video
of the person's face and you can and different angles, you can put it
on anything you want. UM. And the same thing with the uh,
you know, making UFO videos. Um, I think people are able to
do that. Yes, it's it's it's getting harder and hard to find out
if somebody has faked stuff. But UM, like I said, it's I
don't know why we need more video and film proof of of things flying in
the skies that are unidentified. We know that happens. Um. I think
what it is is one part of it is it's what I call ufo porno.
People just like seeing you know, weird, weird videos of stuff.
And two I think some of them think if I can just show this to
somebody who's skeptical, they're going to believe it doesn't work. It's it's not
going to work if somebody's dead set against UM considering these things, no matter
how much video or pictures you show them, it's not gonna, it's gonna.
It's not going to convince them. It's you just run up against a
basically an anti belief system or a different kind of belief system. So I've
retreated sort of too. How can I answer some of these questions or increase
my understanding for myself, my friends, people that I know, and people
that listen to my show. I'm not out to prove anything. If you
were like to say, if you had in mind to talk to someone and
you did, you did want to give a good convincing argument, how would
you do that? I know you said you wouldn't do it, but how
would you do that today? Would you say you know a witness or would
you talk about a witness if you didn't want to convince someone by a video?
Say, I mean, if I wanted to convince somebody, I would
say, I cannot convince you of anything that you do not want to be
convinced of. If you truly want to know, and you're truly open minded
about it, I'm sorry. It's going to take work, reading things,
talking to people, getting the information yourself. Because I can tell somebody read
this book and your your life will be changed. It might have changed my
life, it won't change theirs. Choose your own path to your own understanding.
You know, if you've got to truly um, what's the word,
If you truly want to find out what's going on, walk into it with
an open mind and find things that speak to you. I think that's the
only advice I can give to somebody. I can't sit here in a debate
with somebody and convince them that the of my point of view, it is
not going to work. But if they can find out things for themselves with
their own means, which is really easy, now you can do that.
In fact, it almost it's almost too easy, then that's the path you
should take. And don't believe everything, and I actually don't believe anything.
Keep an open mind the entire through the entire journey, don't don't throw things
out willy nilly, and don't accept things completely. And if somebody tells you
they have the answer, run the other way really fast. Exactly. Yeah,
I've said that a number I've said that a number of times. Have
you ever done any like boots on the ground type of investigation yourself or you
just kind of just write about it and do like outside work like I do.
I used to talk to people, but I've never been somebody that goes
out and says, look, I'm going to go out an interview UFO witnesses.
It's just it's not something I'm interested in. The funny thing is,
if you do what you do or I do, or anybody involved with the
subject that has sort of a has done more than just consume, people will
come up to you and start telling you things. Yeah, and that's fascinating
to me. And also, and I've said this before too, I've been
sitting there signing books or whatever at conferences and somebody will come up and say,
this thing happened to me, and they'll tell me the story, and
I listen. I know if they want me to say something, I say,
fine, how did that make you feel? What happened? Later?
Is there anything else that you want to talk about? Or the majority of
the time, people just want to tell me the story and they say thank
you when they leave, because they just want to tell somebody that isn't going
to tell them they are crazy or ask some stupid questions or say, oh
my god, that's exactly what happened to me too. And you know,
don't you know, it's the Pleiadians or whatever. They just want somebody to
acknowledge something strange happened to them. And I think that the best investigators are
like that. They say, look, I'm fulfilling a service just by letting
people say get this off their chest. I had Mary Ellen guileon Preston Dennett
recently. I'm still editing those shows, but they both told me the same
thing. It's just like we part of our job is to let people get
this stuff off their chest, because sometimes it's just bothering them, and that
part of their part of integrating it into their into their personality, in you're
ready to get into their life experience, is to be able to tell somebody
that's not gonna what interpret it for them, or tell them they didn't see
it what they saw, or be overly eager or whatever. They just want
to get it out. And I think that as far as I can do
that, I think I think that's useful. And there's plenty of people doing
boots on the ground type of investigation I don't like. I don't think that's
the only type of investigation that can be done us. As you know,
if you're in the social sciences, do you have to talk to somebody to
be in social sciences, so you can look at or can you look at
the data. I think you can do things like look at the data and
make reasonable theories and guesses from it that can be applied in the real world
possibly. Um, So you know that that's you know that. I think
that's my role, and that's also a cheerleader. When I see somebody I
think is doing good work, I'll have them on my show and I'll suggest
that they go on people's shows. I'll suggest that Alejandra have them at the
at the UFO Congress if he listens, you know, and he'll listen to
me an other researcher. I think that's important to him to get people in
there that are saying something different. That's one thing about all Jundre and UFO
Congress. They will have Richard Dolan and Linda Howe and Nick Pope and all
these people, but then they'll have people that like my friend Robbie Graham,
who's not saying something everybody wants to hear. And I think that's really right
brave of him to have these people in here that are saying something different is
not the party line. I think that's wonderful, and I think there should
be more of that. Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree.
Now, Juse, I just had a question for you in my mind,
and now I just forgot it. Has that ever happened to you constantly every
day any more than I want to admit? Yeah? Yeah yeah. But
now as far as m have you ever had have you ever like debated a
skeptic or had a skeptic on your show? I've had a couple on my
show that made for interesting radio. I think, No, I haven't,
and a couple of skeptical people have gotten mad at me for not doing that.
I actually have one. John Shirley, the cyberpunk writer. I've had
him on my show. We had a bit of a debate about things.
Um. But the thing is, see, he's not doctrinaire, and he's
not he will actually debate with you, engage. Well, a lot of
skeptics will are. I call them fundamentalist skeptics, meaning they're just they just
have their mind made up and they're not. It's not an exchange of ideas
that he engaged with me. I can't even remember what we talked about this
a couple of years ago. But to have somebody on that truly is listening
to you, and there's an exchange of information and there's a mutual respect.
Really really rare, which is why I don't have I don't usually have him
on the show. Um. The other thing is some of these people I
deal with, especially online, I don't usually engage with them because if I
do it, they're not really listening, and I don't know if I'm meerly
listening. There's only a few people that I think are open minded skeptical people
where they will they say, you know, I need a lot more information
before I commit to this, but I think I kind of I agree with
them. I don't commit to any of this except for there's something strange going
on and that people see strange stuff. And I go one step further by
saying, I think it's due to a business that is not ours and that
automatically shuts down probably ninety percent of people who are skeptical in the in the
classic way that people think of, not in the proper way that I think
is skeptical, which is to keep an open mind and not make a conclusion.
But I've made a conclusion that there's nothing going on, and you have
to convince me that there's something that something is going on. I can't do
that. That's not my job. And also I would like to learn.
I don't want to have people on the show. I want to that,
I argue with I want to have somebody on the show that it's telling me
something that I do not know, that fascinates me, that pushes my understanding
further, and that's not a closed minded thing. That's another thing people say
is well, then you're just you know, listen, you're just preaching to
the choir or listening to people that it is an echo chamber. No,
that's not it. You get to a certain point where you say, look
my brain and my personality and my knowledge, I trust that I'm not going
to go nuts or believe something that's silly or that will lead me in the
wrong direction, and I'm willing to listen. I don't take in every you
know, I don't accept everything, but I listen to a lot of things.
So that's my basic philosophy. If it makes sense, it does make
sense, Greg, So that's going to be it. We're having up internet
issues again, so we're right near the end of the show anyway, So
I want to thank you so much for being on the show. It's always
a pleasure talking to you. Oh, definitely at any time. Martin,
thank you so much. Thanks to the audience for the great questions, the
comments excellent. All Right, you take care, thank you too. All
right, thanks all right, yeah, good night, y okay. So
that's it. So that's it for the show with Greg. I want to
thank a few people. First of all Alejandra Rojas for being on the UFO
updates. I also want to thank our guest, of course, Greg Bishop
Evan for trying to make this show work even though internet was going in and
out. Thank you so much. I want to thank Peggy for managing our
Facebook page, Keith over at the Dark Matter Digital Network. And so next
week we have Dean Aliato on. It should be a real fun show.
He's a real character. So thanks everyone, and remember to keep your eyes
to the sky.