Hello, lovely people, and welcome to a very special episode of On the
Latch. Today it's your host, Joshi Willisy. Hi, it's me not
your host, but back from the brink of depression to fight racism not Again,
Bet and today we have a very special guest, Chloe Davies. She
is an activist, speaker, incredible by role model, strategic officer for UK
Black Pride and head of Partnerships for My g Work. She's an amazing mom
of two beautiful kids. I'm just the one who I'm really grateful to know
and I'm very grateful to have on this show. Welcome, Hi, thank
you for having me. I'm really looking forward to today. This is going
to be healing. Yeah, don't don't we all need it, don't we
just like, haven't it just been It's been a time at the time time.
It's so It's fascinating, isn't it. How something that feels so momentous
we're all experiencing it from our own homes. I mean, obviously, of
course people have been out on the streets, but largely we haven't. Like
the world has changed so so drastically, and actually the fact that this has
happened in quarantine. I don't think is a coincidence. With so many people
who have been at home, they've been separated from those day love. They've
experienced so much in terms of this global pandemic. But actually there's another pandemic
that proceeds Corona, and that is racism. And all of the white people
listening right now, we're just like, oh my god, racism. I
didn't think that was what I was here for. Be another episode on the
latter. I was really looking forward to it. Oh, everything's being black,
I'm home saying, But I posted my black square. You mean it
didn't. Oh yeah, don't you dare rat squares matter? Joking? They
don't, but yeah, I mean I usually I do a check in and
and say, so, well, how is everybody? Um, so I'm
just going to ask this instead. Who's tired of being asked? How are
you? Definitely, And it was funny. I was laughing with my friend
Amber today, um, because you know, I'm I'm tired of you know,
how are you? And like are you fine? You know my thing
has been like next question please, um, because traditionally, you know,
black people, we don't we don't know how to rest, like you know,
if you had the upbringing that I did. My parents are you know,
African African American. And so even when you know, you were sick
and I was desperately ill and I was trying to get off school, my
mom was like, but are you bleeding? Um? And uh. And
so when we kind of go into life in the working world, you know,
we don't clock watch. We do more than is expected because we know
that we're held to a higher standard. So in this time when we should
be taking the time even more so to you know, apply self care,
to stop just to not none. I mean, I'll hold my hands up
and say, I don't really know how to do that. And even when
I do try, I'm a bit like, Okay, it's been half an
hour, Like, um, what what next? Not because I don't want
to, but um, there's still so many other things to do. There's
still so much work to be done. And yeah and yeah, like I
mean, for me, I do think that whilst it all comes from a
good place, that how are you actually really makes you feel a lot of
the time it's like not fucking good, you know, and just to even
almost you know, when somebody is nice to you when you're upset, and
then it makes you like almost set you off sometimes like McCanny, like,
oh, you're gonna make me cry here, don't be too nice. It's
kind of a bit like that, but also like it can like it can
because it makes you think, well, actually, now I'm being asked about
it, I'm not actually that great. But if you're not in the mood
to talk about it, then you'll just do that kind of performative. I'm
fine, thanks for checking, you know. I find that like the especially
over the last week two weeks, and the question is how are you isn't
really what's bothering me. It's the intention and the people behind it. A
lot of the people that I've been approached by a people that I don't speak
to on a regular basis or I wouldn't class as friends, are just people
that I vaguely know, and to me, it just seems very like,
oh, quickly, that's approached the one of the only black people we know,
and I hate that. I hate kind of if if either of you,
I think, Josh, we're Facebook friends. So if you've been on
my Facebook, which is like of the social media platforms is the one that
I least use, but is for sharing pictures of the kids and kind of
connecting with family and stuff. And so I haven't done my house cleaning,
you know, housekeeping on that one as much as I should have, and
for the last few days for that exact reason of people that it's almost like
they forgot that I was black, you know, they forgot that they were
connected to other black people, or they simply just didn't care. And they
were all look at that lot outside protesting and you know, do you think
that, um, you know, George deserved it and just some real racist
rhetoric. So was the block button. My finger was tired from like block,
but let me cuss you out before I block and delete you and then
you know, do what I do, what I need to do. And
so um, you know, even even today, like I you know,
I think when people kind of you have a level of visibility, whether you
know, it's that's the reasons why we're doing this. Like I'm I don't
do the work that I do for clout or for recognition. I just would
like to create a better world for my kids, and therefore if it means
I can be a good example, then then that's why I do what I
do. Um, But I had to remind people how at this time they
should be engaging with the black community. And first and foremost, I don't
need your guilt. I don't want your pity. Um, and I am
not your encyclopedia or your Google, like that's what Google exists for. Go
and use a computer, use a phone, go and find out the information,
because I think at the moment some people are being inherently lazy and they're
not realizing the trauma that it that it puts on black people right now when
you're having to say, oh, you know, how are you? And
you know, I'm kind of going back on the last few days when I
can tell you that, like today, I thought I was having a really
good day. You know, there's been a bit of laughter. Um,
it's been so busy with work and I've been really stressed, but even that,
it's like it's been all right. And then I watched the video of
rich reg Citatio's dad being tasered by the police, and the rage that you
know has been living with me violently for the last four weeks just came back
in, you know, blazing glory, and this is this is what we're
going through. Every day there will be something that triggers a black person every
single day. And so when you've got people sliding into your DMS like help
me, help you, And also there's something around like there's something about the
like there is this like there's definitely an entitlement there. It's almost like prove
it in a weird way or like um, like there's almost like can you
show me? Can you point me to some things here? It's just I'm
not And it's just like I'm gonna look on the same Google You've got,
like do you know what I mean? Like it, what do you think
I'm gonna like literally pull out a little black book where I can just like
list off. I'm like one do like that specific question you've just asked?
Do you know where that can go? A search engine? Like literally just
like just how I would do it. I'm also sick of people. I
nearly had to I think I said to one person, I'm I'm not a
social media manager, Like that's not my job. Because people people kept coming
into my d MS and asking me do you think it's okay if I post
this? Should I post this? And at the same time, I've got
other people then coming into my DMS, and I tweeted about this actually,
and people were really shocked it was happening. But people were coming into my
dms and kind of like trying to prove that they weren't racist with no introduction,
just like I've done this, this and this, and I can't believe
that nobody else is. And I was like, oh, I mean,
oh sorry, now I was. My sentence that I hate at the moment
is I'm sorry if I've done anything racist to you. I have had that
a few times, but I do One thing that I really got onliners was
like just it reminded me of what them were saying about the social media manument.
Someone was like, could you make an effort infographic? I was like,
I'm black, not a graphic designer. Okay, I do not know
how to do that, I was. I was like, no, I
can't. And also I'm busy. M Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of
a lot of black women influences, just black women's voices that I follow on
Instagram. You know, I saw Tolly put on Twitter today. You know,
people keep sending her tweets or links in her DM saying, you know
you should post this, this is this will be a really good one.
To raise awareness to your followers, like with the expectation that she should continue
to do their work. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and and so
you know in any of us that our facilitators of knowledge, whether we do
it through work, we do it through our own social media platforms. It's
like, I think it's that expectation that I'm finding quite frustrating at the moment
of continuing to do the work when you know, the whole point of of
that square was that it wasn't for us, it was for everybody else to
keep doing the work because for many people, they are just arriving to what
the at your work is for the very first time. And it's that word
as well as that word expectation of you feel a weight on your shot,
You feel like a base weight on your shoulders of what you're already meant to
be doing. And then people add to it with wanting to take more from
you and ask more of you. And at the same time, it's like
we're also individual human beings who are trying to handle our own mental health in
the middle of a global pandemic as well as the pandemic of racism, and
it just becomes really difficult to look after yourself and make sure you're finding your
own pockets of space to try and just be relaxed and just find some respite,
which is just really difficult to come back my friends and I are,
you know, in like I of all those social media platforms, I think
Instagram has always been my favorite because it's just been like my little tribe of
people and the people that I want to follow. And I guess as this
period of time is going through and you have you find more people engaging or
more people asking. I always used to like internally laugh when I would see,
you know, very visible figures or people put in guidelines of how they
would like people to interact with them on their page, just because it wasn't
really anything that I ever thought about. But at this time, I think
there's probably the best thing of self care is to put how they wish people
to engage so I know that, like I saw doctor Ronx had it on
their page of their expectations of like don't slide into my DMS for this because
you will be left on read and I will not answer, and just has
people to navigate and move through the space. And I think that's probably one
of the best tools that I've seen in this time of so many black voices,
Black black people across industry, creatives, musicians, artists are saying this
is this is how I need you to navigate with me through this period because
my mental health, my self care as precedent UM and I can't have you
moving like that. Sure, UM, I just want to just I completely
agree with that. We've got to kind of look after ourselves because it's like
things. It was stressful enough before UM this became, you know, a
worldwide conversation, and this world wide conversation. You know, if you're listening
to this, you know far in the future or you know you've been under
a rock. This is about you know this. This comes off the back
of UM, I suppose a global movement sparked by the murder of George Floyd
when a police officer rested his knee on George's net for over eight minutes.
UM this um has This murder sparked protests which quickly spread from from these across
the world and definitely the largest in scale since nineteen sixty eight when Martin Luther
King was assassinated. Of course, George isn't the only victim of police brutality.
Um. In terms of in the US with Brianna Taylor, Tony McDade,
there's so many, many, many more. I could spend the rest
of this episode literally just reading names. This is something that's been felt across
the world and of course here in the UK too. There is so many
points of tension, from Grenfell to wind Rush to Belly majinga Sarah remark organ
over one thousand, five hundred people have died in police custody in the UK.
The fact that there is no education on slavery, black history really or
colonialism in the curriculum, and that slave money from slaves has built this country
as we know it, um and and and in a versation is starting on
that. So just for some context, that's where we're where we're at.
This is just a big question, But I want to I just I think
it's important that we talk about it. Does this feel like a genuine turning
point? Yes, to put it bluntly, I think like I think that,
like you said, there hasn't been There have been like movements in the
past, especially in like in the last couple of years. As you know,
anger rises, but as quickly as anger rises, anger quickly falls away
and name has become forgotten and people carry on and just pick themselves up and
keep moving. I actually think that although I thought that this happening in the
middle of a global health pandemic was terrible because I was like, dealing with
two pandemics at the same time is not great. That's not going to work.
Actually, I think it's had some form of I don't want to say
benefit because I don't want to say global pandemic is a benefit to anybody.
But people are at home and not out, and they can't do anything other
than pay attention. And I think that's what's making this actually pick up momentum
and keep going forwards. So I do feel like this is a turning point.
I think we you know, it's who is listening, because I think
we can't forget that people have been fighting and haven't stopped fighting. And it's
predominantly been the black community that has been fighting. And so I do agree
that you know, in the silence and at least the slowing down that has
been caused by the global pandemic, and also, you know, as much
as you can argue the benefits love and hate, the positive and negatives of
social media, it has been undeniable simply because people can see it. They
can see a visual representation of what black people have been telling them for years
in memoriam, and they cannot ignore it, they cannot deny that there is
happening, because it is being played out on a global stage, not just
in one location, but in locations, cities, countries all around the world.
And so that that that you can't fake, that you can't pretend.
You know, when we talk about the murder of George Floyd, and it
was one main um, you know, main murderer, but four murderers,
you know, because as we see the footage from the other side of the
car and a CCTV, at one point three of the officers had their knees
on George. And so when we when we look to the amount of pressure
that people have had to apply on police and you know, the police force
just to get the people arrested and then just to get a conviction, and
they tried to fob the black community off and the world off with okay,
well you can have one, but we're still, you know, going through
the process of the other three and now only you know, purely more so
because of the voices and the footage have they now you know, charged all
four of them. And so again when we look at in this movement,
you know, in the Black Lives Matter movement, which again, like I
said, has been going on for so long, but this has really been
amplified by the circumstances and the tragedies that are happening all around the world.
That's that's one of the only reasons that we're really getting changed now because the
pressure of those voices, the amplification of black voices and non black people stepping
up and standing in and using their voices. You know, when you go
to protests and Josh, you at the protests last week, like as you
look around, yes, black community is there, but there were others beside
you, and that I think has always been the difference in that we have
had others with us, but there has never been such an overwhelming number of
people. And so let's not get it twisted. Some are completely genuine and
we're grateful for those people. Others are doing it because they feel like they've
been four Some they feel like it is guilt and that will all come out
in the wash in its own way. But the collective power of people towards
government, towards corporations, towards actually genuinely calling it out and not staying silent.
You know, we are used to being silent. We are used to
being silenced. And so I think now when I think about how brands are
getting called out, you know, when I think about you know, Josh,
I know we're going to get to Munroe. But when I think about,
you know, this is three years in the making. There's been three
years that she did not stay silent, and the same things that she said
three years ago that the entire world is saying now now it has been deemed
that it is okay and it is acceptable, and that wasn't the decision by
black people, because black people have stood behind Munroe every single step of the
way. And so you have to ask yourself, what is it going to
take Because without her applying pressure and the other voices that supported her applying pressure,
they would have just hoped that we forgot or that there was something else
to distract us, and that we would just let it go and move on,
and then people could continue to move in a way that they move.
That's like you said, Ben, how it's always been. And the focus
is that because the majority of the world has nowhere else to go, that
they are fully invested in what is happening in the world because they have nothing
to distract him. I mean, for me, I do think that there's
definitely been a significant turning point. There's been a groundswell of interest and also
the conversation and has shifted to a point where you're absolutely right, the white
fragility that wants really dominated the conversation and was able to shout over voices like
Monroe publicly when they said that actually that actually the systems and society that we
live up in today are racist. That was you know, that white fragility
now it doesn't have the same cultural capital that it did then that it does
now. I mean, no, it doesn't have the same cultural capital as
capital now than it than it did then. And now the conversations moved on
to the point where brand actually for them not to say anything. You know,
they've got black lives a matter of statements coming out like GDPR these at
the moment um, you know, they're like if then you know, they're
notable by their you know, absence, if they aren't saying something, and
so you know, the conversation around brands will always be definitely a tricky one.
And you know, you and me, we both work with organizations on
being more inclusive. But there's an understanding that there's a there's a business case
and now there's a clear business case, but an anti blackness, which one
like, of course that's a one hand. I'm like, that's good.
But then I also do think that really will racism ever truly be dismantled while
capitalism exists. That's another episode I think. But um, you know,
I I I agree with you to a certain extent, but then you know,
I'm also going to have to challenge you because you know, like you
said, this is this is what we do in our day job. Um,
you know, and we go into businesses and you have to remember I
am a black woman stepping into that business. So you know, I'm I'm
taking that with me everywhere I go. And so if I'm talking about inclusion,
even if I'm talking about that from an lgbt Q base, I am
a representation of myself being a black LGBTQ person, and so if your inclusion
does not include me, then that is you know, that means that there
is some serious work to do and I think that that's that's the part where
brands are being held and by brands. I am also saying, you know,
organizations and corporations that the work isn't tokenistic or box ticking like in creating
an inclusive culture, it isn't just one thing. We are never just one
thing, and so you have to think about you know, when I walk
into a business wherever I go, I want to walk and work into any
random business. I want there to be an LGBT network. I want there
to be a woman's network. I want there to be a race network.
I also want there to be a parents network or at least that they have
flexible working practices. That's that's just me, and that's inclusion for me.
That's not like a separation. It is me bringing my entire self to work
and doing everything that I need to do to be successful. So on that
account, I think that on the opposite side, you know, you are
seeing and we're all seeing it played out, you know, mostly on social
media, where there have been brands that have behaved in anti black rhetoric and
that you know don't have you know, they're putting black Lives matter slogans,
but yet they have no black workforce, They have no black executives. You
know, the only black people that they have in their business are hospitality or
the housekeeping team. And so you know, from that perspective, it's it's
where where are you coming from? And rightly so, the rest of the
world is saying be it, you know, be bold, but be honest
in your intentions. And if your intentions aren't that you're fully representative of diverse
you know, diverse people within your workforce, that's okay as long as you
admit that you're at the very beginning of your journey, and people will give
you the benefits out to actually help you do the work. But when you
use bold statements and talk about supporting a part of a community that is not
reflective in your business, but you take their money, that's when I think
everyone has the absolute right and for that I will be here all day sipping
my tea, um, because I think that I think that businesses should and
and know that they are going to be held to that account in a way
that for a long time, um, they haven't and they've they've quite they've
quite happily moved in silence, knowing that the voices haven't been loud enough,
um to hold them to account in that way. And you know, and
like we said, loreal Is is one of the biggest ones that you know,
we just just had sense context. So three years ago Munro was named
as an ambassador or the representative with its um and laural paris I believe it
was, was it and and basically talked about a systemic racism within within society.
This created a huge media for all, helped by you know, a
lot of the right wing press, including of course a certain Gammon who we
shall not mention on a certain morning television UM and and yeah and and as
a result, actually she was unceremoniously let go as an ambassador, UM,
dismissed or let's not let's not show she was. She was disgustingly fired.
Yeah and and comin to the wars as well. Absolutely no support. You
know, she she didn't interview where she talked about institutional systematic racism that she
has not stopped talking about before, during or since. UM And she was
and she was fired. She was fired. They didn't protect her, They
didn't protect her against the press. And you know, now in a time
of Black Lives matter, they're coming out with statements about how much they support
the black community, and up until two days ago, Monroe hadn't had na
fault sheet. But it just reeks of it, just reeks of like doing
it now because you know you have to. I think that brands at the
moment of finding themselves in this really awkward gray space of knowing that they haven't
done enough in the past and knowing that if they say something, they're probably
going to be criticized for their lack of diversity in the past, but also
knowing that they can't not say anything because they will also be called out for
doing the same thing. Also they can't not only they worried about having not
done anything. A lot of them now, those who have come out that
previous employers have been like, there's you, um and like literally kind of
came with how many times eats, So like, I mean, I think
what I will say is I think it's a positive step and I'm very pleased
for Munroe because I think she will be able to I think it can be
a definitely a teachable moment um for for Brad. I'm so proud of I'm
so proud of Munroe, and I think so she's been sorry should we say
so? Apology has been issued, she's been and now she's sorry, I
should we're just talking about as if as everybody knows, she's she's been hired
now as a consultant for Lauria, that she's received an apology, and so
she's going to be, you know, working again with them and thinking about
actually how they how they approach inclusion and representation as as as a black trans
woman. And I think that is a fantastically part of the part of a
new diversity initiative. But I'm you know, I'm pleased for her that she's
managed to get some closure on this, but also that the work that we
knew that she could have done three years ago in being such a beautiful visitor
role model for the brand and for other people who wish to see themselves and
our reflections of her. Um, you know, I'm glad that she still
gets the opportunity to do that, and we all know she's gonna absolutely m
yeah, so that I'm incredibly incredibly pleased and m you know, I hope
that it's the beginning of a change for the brand, which with her on
board, it absolutely will give her her flowers. So I want to I'm
gonna move us on to um something that like has definitely been like almost like
it's been a huge part of thinking about racism in a historical context over the
last few days, and it is about the statues. So it started on
Sunday in Bristol at the Black Lives Matters protests, where a statue of Edward
Colston, who was a slaver who transported I think one hundred thousand. What
I say transported is putting it incredibly mild, like barbarically took people from their
homes, transported them halfway across the world into slavery in the most appalling conditions
possible. Over twenty thousand people on their relationships alone died. I went to
Union Bristol and actually almost everywhere you go his name is all over. It's
all over the city in terms of music halls and the like, because he
was a huge philanthropist in the city. Now Black Lives Match protests chucked his
statue. Well, it first took it down and then chucked it into the
river, and it was an iconic and symbolic moment and it literally did start
a conversation on these statues and our history and why we are glorifying people who
actively participated and benefited from the slave trade for for years and years and years.
Um. It's a stupid question to ask whether we think it's a whether
it's right that we that we do this. I assume that we're all on
the same page. Get them all in the river, um. But my
question really are with regards to this is why do you think people give a
ship? Do you know what? Do you know what it is? I
think some people just I don't want to simplify it, because I'm sure there
are you know, there are overly complicated reasons for people being assholes. But
I genuinely just think some people like to be difficult and don't like to be
challenged and don't want to be affronted with basically being told that something that they
believe in or something that they like or something that they're used to is inherently
racist and was racist. I mean, ask any of these people who are
standing in front of the statutes and defending them if they actually care about,
like, actually physically care about Edward Cousten, Like, please tell me is
he a family member? Is her cousin? I think it's deeper than that
or simple than that, I should say, do you know who he was?
Do you actually know what you're defending? And the answer for many will
probably be no guarantee they know, But yeah, but I think you know.
Yeah, But but I think that we are, you know, as
we as we've said throughout, you know, the whole of you know,
the whole of today, Like we are in a period where people are really
having to you know, all of us, but some people are really having
to self reflect and ask themselves questions about themselves and really kind of look at
the way that they navigate through the world and actually how the world really really
is. And so you know, as much as as it is right that
we're having this conversation about statutes, isn't really a conversation because we know what
is right and what is wrong. Let's have the same conversation about museum.
Oh absolutely, let's open you know, I mean, let's have the same
conversation about those precious jewels that you didn't ask permission, you just took.
So where you're you're marveling at, you know, museums that carry gold and
jewels and diamonds and precious paintings and statues and ivory, and you know,
the list could go on and on and on, and you didn't. You
didn't. You took them by force in ask to take them. And you
have earned money off of the blood and twit, tears and bones of the
people that you stepped over to fill up to fill up your halls by admissions
and by exhibitions. And you know where is where's that money? You know,
because you're you're complaining about a statue. But to the communities that you
have taken all of these precious things from, you owe them and that and
that is the foundations on which our country has been built. And like there's
something around I think, you know, let's not forget like like with all
these things in the way that we're which museums are painted and actually almost glossed
over, the way in which like how all of these things, you know,
these antiquities have been acquired. Let's reflect on how the UK, like
consistently throughout its its history, is a nation has rewritten history. You know,
it literally deleted you know, you know, um like civil servants,
deleted histories of colonial crimes being you know, being perpetrated. You know,
many times the UK has written rewritten history. So and even on this occasion,
we're trying to kind of rewrite and sugarcoat history. So I just find
the whole thing about rewriting history completely false because history opted is written by the
victors and um, and so more often and not we've had that opportunity to
rewrite that history. What people don't really like, I think is the fact
that there's another story that's being told. And I think that's what people are
being untelled by, you know, but what they've always known is wrong,
and people don't inherently like to be wrong. No, I think we need
to normalize, Like I keep seeing this on social media, and I really
like it's like normalize change in your mind once you get new new information,
Normalize understanding that actually that you were wrong. Oh my goodness. I'm doing
it all the time, getting things wrong, I mean, but also being
aware of that and change in my mind. And I think they're just They're
just isn't that people could be so rigid in their in their own idea.
I think people are. There was a fear I think throughout all of so
many communications I've had with people, I think underlying it all, there's a
genuine fear of a people are scared of being labeled to race it or getting
it wrong. That's why you've probably had so many people and you know,
that's why you've become social media manager. Then yeah, I think so.
I think people that's why these conversations aren't being had because people are scared to
actually almost open up the conversation because they're scared that actually they the fact that
the things that they don't know will come to light, and so they're scared
of looking stupid or in some way uninformed. Um, do you know what
else they're scared of. I think people are also scared of what this change
will entail. There's I watched a video by one of my friends called Grace
who she went. She posted like a thirteen minute video on Instagram and I
was watching it and she put it perfectly and I'm probably about to butcher like
her entire point. I loved it so much. One of those faces.
Do go and check it out. Yeah, but it was like it was
just like what it was basically saying that who we think we are and who
we say we are compared to who we actually are is a completely different person
and they're basically strangers. And it gets to a point where you say that
you stand for workers' rights and that you stand with the LGBTQ community, that
you stand with black people, and you stand with Latin people, but you're
supporting causes or you're supporting businesses and corporations that actively don't. For example,
you shop at Amazon, who you know don't pay their workers fairly, or
you pay for repeat or at Papa John's who pays charities or whatever they do
that's not great, which is all of these corporations. You go to Cachella,
and the person who runs Cachello or owns Cachella funds the Republicans or whatever
it's and people are worried about what will have to change if they don't go
to these things, Like if we don't go to Cachello, can we go
to any other gigs? No? Well okay, well, but maybe has
to be the sacrificion you make. Like I think it's kind of like,
yeah, people are what this is the thing. I think people are up
to it to a point. They're about that life to a point, and
then they're like, oh my goodness, like actually, what where does this
because actually structural inequality runs so deep. Yeah, people just think that like
saying that I'm not racist means that that stops them the more responsibility of what
they have to do next. And unfortunately it doesn't just saying that you're not
racist. Unfortunately, it isn't the end goal. That's just not where they've
finished linings. But don't don't we have this conversation about racism, and you
know, like as we're saying in this time here and now, we are
talking about racism specifically and only to the black community, we are not saying
that racism doesn't occur to many different communities LGBT Asian, within the Asian community,
South Asian, like, there are so many different levels of racism that
happen and across across the globe into different communities of people. Um, but
within that it's almost like that I'm not racist because I accept that racism happens,
but not in the way that it impacts me. And if it doesn't
necessarily impact me, well that's okay because I kind of see it and know
about it. But until it kind of comes to my door, can we
not just keep it moving because it makes me uncomfortable? And that's the thing
is that we are in this place of utter uncomfortableness, all of us,
like some more than most. But I'm but I'm but I'm just like,
okay, So I accept that you're uncomfortable, but you know, and I
you know, it came to me best. So there is an amazing,
amazing woman, a black woman called Patriana Jones, who put a thread on
Twitter that was the ten ten things that best describe racism that black people face.
And it's basically just ten questions like if I wear my natural hair today,
will I be differently? Like have I have I been brought into this
job role out of affirmative action? You know, does this person date black
people? And all these questions that as black people, you know, every
single one. I was like, yeah, ask myself that question every single
time, And isn't that sad? And I had so many people going,
oh my god, that's you know, that's so that's so sad. But
that's not a life that you're ever going to have to live. You know,
every every day it doesn't wash off. This is still the color of
my skin and I'm proud of it. But you're no, no, no,
no no. But by that I mean that you don't understand. You
don't understand the skin, and you know, the space that we operate and
navigate through. You're just learning that now, and even when there is less
noise, we will still be black people and this will still happen. So
it's almost like when someone does the kind of I'm not racist, this is
not going to go away unless you address that I am not racist. And
I think that's the thing where it's like we are in a time now where
I am please that accountability is high. Like you know how many times it's
if I say anything, yeah, but nothing's really going to happen to them,
or they're going to get away with it, or they're just going to
make out that I'm the angry one. You know, there are all these
times where black people, the black community has not spoken up, not because
they haven't wanted to, but because they have been silenced by so many other
means. You know, we even saw it a few maybe was it last
week when at the height of Black Lives Matter protests? You know, movements,
organization, communication like amazing, amazing networking people sharing, you know,
knowledge, foundations, funds to support. You know, if you're going to
a protest, you know how to protect yourself, you know your safety cards,
lawyers, all of that that was happening on social media, and then
they came up with the square. You know, when it's it's rife in
the media and everyone is talking about it, regardless of whichever press outlet you
come in and out of, and then suddenly the news was diverted to a
year old story. It's not even a fresh story. They rebut out a
year old story about Madeline that had had nothing to do with the current time.
You know, it wasn't relevant. It was a year old as a
distraction. Oh absolutely, And so even when good is trying to happen,
they're still the system that's going, it's getting a bit loud. Now,
can we can we try and turn this down? Um? And it's that
part that's like you yeah, you you you non non. The press have
their whole, but the press have their their hands are bloody, that's the
thing. That's that's why they're drying a silence. They don't you think,
yes, it's going to do loud, but they're like, they're responsible for
a great deal of the basis them. So they're like, god, it's
all's next. We're gonna we don't want our sales to drop, absolutely,
but people aren't going wilst like except but you know, some people just want
to believe what they're told and therefore be lemmings. You know, people people
make an active choice to check in or to buy into what the media tells
them. You know, you can make an active choice to go and research
your information, or to go and get your knowledge, or to go and
check into your news elsewhere. So UM, I don't really, I don't
really buy that that, you know, it's all the media's fault, because
you know, I don't just because it's on the television doesn't mean I have
to watch it and then make it my whole ethos. And I think there's
a control. Isn't there a press in the UK? You know, like
not like there's obviously that's why the internet's democratized media. But if you think
about the Sun, you think about the Male, even the Mirror, you
know, they're they're definitely like a conglomerate, Like what these do you read
them? No? But a lot of the problem is I'm not the people
who are you know, a lot of people who experienced racism don't. But
there's a lot of people who, um, who you know who are racists
do um, And so it's self perpetuated right, Well, I mean we
can't speak about here who shall not be named, but you know, even
the whiplash switch out that he's done in terms of you know, yeah,
yeah, you know ga Gammon in chief, you know, of recognizing that
now you know when I used to watch interviews of him, um, you
know with doctor Schuler and he is oh, you know, in her face
and you know, shouting her down, and now he's like, no,
Charlotte. I agree. It's like, oh, oh, how long will
this continue? I want to talk about because I like, before I forget
what do we think? Grinder is another company that they got called out and
as a result of being called out, they ended up um changing that that
the policies they ended up changing that their ethnicity filter. I did not know
that you could actually filter on ethnicity. I mean, I just want to
know who in the boardroom or who in whatever executive position thought that this was
a good idea to begin with. Anyway, I don't use the app,
so I'll leave it up to you too. I mean, it's very much
you know that mean I'm going to give the racist gaze at within a while.
UM, Like, I think it's it's deeply problematic and the fact that
you can filter by race says a lot really about you know. Yeah,
And I'm also I'm also not going to applaud them for taking it away either,
like it should it shouldn't have been there in the first place. So
I'm definitely not about to give you a clap for taking it down in the
middle of a racial pandemic, like I'm not going to give you flowers,
so doing what shouldn't have been there in the first place. But then you
know this, and this is the dark part that well, I mean,
there's one thing, there was a very practical thing. You know, if
you're a minority group and actually you don't want constant microaggressions, could it be
used by a minority group too, to try and eliminate that through the ethnicity
filters? But we all know that that's that's not what that's being used for.
The majority of people that are using the ethnic filters are searching for they're
probably white gates suching for other white gals. I mean, let's be honest
too. But then do you think as well though, that the whoe other
thing they're I was thinking was don't I'm worried that it now will expose more
you know black, um, you know Asian people too, people who are
actively raisedst too. Typically they wouldn't have seen on the timeline. Um.
And that in itself as well is just a point of tension, the fact
that you know, and the how sad is that they've got to worry like
oh now, though they might take it out on people like in like actually
on the app. Yeah, I think I think my, like, my
one problem with that statement, and like I understand where it comes from,
and like I understand how we have to move in certain spaces, um,
but like it makes me like itch thinking that we or people of color have
to think about how we're going to be attacked by other people when those people
should be the ones who are thinking, oh my god, no, I
shouldn't be racist in the first place. But it just makes me, it
makes me itch to think that we would be upset about the ethnicity sort of
going because we're worried about racial attacks and really the people who should be ashamed
and thinking about this is people who would be racist in the first place.
Oh and that's that nuts too. Um. Through all of this, like
there's been some real traumatic images Onlineland. Do you know what some days have
been very very difficult, difficult, but liked throughout any of this, have
there been moments of joy for you? I want to just you know,
I want to just take a pause and just to have a minute because I
think we go it to ourselves. Firstly, um, because I have in
all of this, where have you found moments of joy? Have you found
things that you've been able to to laugh at and be grateful for or just
in joy? I just want to guys, um, and with my chosen
family, I mean, my obsession. I don't want to steal your bath
line, like, but my obsession with my baths of like my little fifteen
minute bath bomb deliciousness has been great. Although I normally have one child because
my son can open the bathroom door now, so that normally gets yeah,
that gets invaded. Yeah, normally gets invaded. So you know, there's
no time for candles or anything like that and really bug it up. But
yeah, chatting chatted friends, um, just checking in, Like I've managed
to catch a couple of like two hours. Last week, we had a
social distance visit with Instagram chat over a takeaway and we just like belly laughed.
At one point. I think I was you know, m lady like
and you know wifingk snocks us laughing so hard, but you know one of
those ones that really like feels your soul like, um, you know.
I managed to have a massive long chat with Lady Field the other day,
which really made me feel so much better. And my friend Amber and I
were sending voice notes to each other today, which was just cool to like
hear each other's voice and hear each other's laugh um down the phone. You
know. One of my friends is you know, you've got to check in
with your humans, and so it's been nice to kind of just chat to
her and stuff like, Yeah, any any of my friends that I can
just stop and relax and like just you know, imagine what it's going to
be like moral together again and create that space over a phone care of WhatsApp
video like that's there my self care. I think that's what I'm living the
most for at the moment, is to get back that. Yeah. I'm
trying to figure out a way to say it without giving too much away,
because do you work out how I got around that one. I'm trying to
think, like I've been I've been working on like a side project for years
now, and this it's really annoying that it finally came to fruition in the
last couple of months, but I feel like that's been able to take my
mind off things, and yeah, kind of similar. Just I've been popping
up on the internet for the last couple of weeks on various platforms and just
reminding other people to do what I've been doing, which is just find little
pockets of breathing room just to be and be balanced and to kind of get
back to yourself and know that you're not a terrible person for tuning out the
news for an hour and having an hour to yourself to watch things that make
you laugh and to cheer you up. Because we all have to look out
for each other, but we also have to make sure we're looking up for
our own mental health and our own state of mind. And it's it's it's
so imperative, and I've been just urging people and trying to urge myself to
make sure that we are all looking after each other and we all know that
we're there for each other, but we're also there for ourselves, which is
what is just as important. Yeah, I am, I had to.
I think it's the only it's the only way, you know, we were
saying at the beginning, like sometimes some of us just don't know how to
rest or. You know, we're so busy with work, and then you
know, I'm so busy with kids and remembering that I am also my own
priority and getting because I am awful at this. You know, the people
that I trust around me that are like, okay, so what did you
do today and actually holding me to account, Like my therapist will drag me
on my sessions. She does. I love her. She's amazing. And
she was like, okay, so what time did you take for you?
And I was like, okay, so can we Like so I was saying
before, She's like, no place, So what time do you take for
you? And it's almost like knowing that the people that really care about you're
gonna I'm also going to hold you to that account that I really need to
hold myself to that account as well, and so um, you know,
it doesn't have to be hours. It doesn't even have to be an hour.
It can be half an hour of just silence, or half an hour
of switching off social media, turning off your phone. Like so many of
my friends where before it was like I will leave our phones on for an
emergency. They're like, so just to let you know my phone is going
off, and no, I'm going to churn it. I can churn it
back on because we have to go. That actually gives me anxiety. I'm
like, I'm like, I put my best friend said, I'm turning my
phone off, Like so what, Oh my god, I'm such an addict.
I'd be like, let me just pop on the get get on the
laptop. Of a second. I'm just gonna just it's healthy. It's healthy,
and we have to So now I'm gonna double check Josh, I'm gonna
check somewhere like but also it didn't reply and my phone was off on Instagram.
Um, do you know what like the things that I've found, like
it has been really now it's this. I've really just tried to do a
little bit of cute home improvement. So Nil made a planter which was like
you know, like something like we put like a box to put plants in.
UM for the book. For our front, I'm calling it a garden,
which is a huge tree. Um. It's a pensive concrete on the
front of our house. But we've got turf on the front of it.
We've put some turf down, We've got some like plants and so we've just
really and we've got some like depth chairs bet we have on the front.
Bear in mind the front is this is basically onto the street. So when
when with that out there, it's it's it's it's a public momentum. But
yes, this planter Nowl's made. I helped and then we're like we like
painted it. We've been standing it down and just like that kind of has
just brought me kind of just just some home improvement, some looking after the
like what where I am and just trying to think about the things that I
have control over, because of course I do have control, and I'm pushing
things forward and in my work, but when you see things going on sometimes
you can just get this sense of helplessness or helplessness you're out of control and
so and as to somebody who is naturally anxious, and a lot of that
comes from I think, like control and wanting control to an extent. You
just mentioned Chloe actually about talking to Lady Ville, and so I think it
would be with miss of us to really, you know, go this episode
episode without talking about Black Pride and how incredible an organization it is. But
also you know, this huge swell of support that it's had and of course
of donations that it's had over the last couple of weeks, which is hugely
encouraging. Are you excited and talks already begun for twenty twenty one or what
you mean, Josh frewind We are twenty twenty you know, come on,
we are Black and lgbt Q three hundred and six to five days the year
twenty four seven. We just because there is you know, the pandemic has
meant that we don't have an opportunity to have a physical event, didn't mean
that we wouldn't you know, still reach out to our community. So you
know, we have already announced we're part of Pride and side alongside Stonewall,
Amnesty International and Power Pride, and that kicks off on twenty eighth of June
until the fifth of July, and then we have a team meeting. Our
next team meeting is on Friday, where we are you know, still in
our planning for our fifteenth at fifteen anniversary virtual celebration and everyone will kind of
find out about that a little bit later. But that would be a little
bit later on in the year, a few months after, you know,
a few months off frid and aside. So yeah, I am ecstatic,
Like I wish we could all be in the bosom of each other's company.
Our core team are amazing people and you know, my chosen family they are.
You know, we're all keeping each other boisting void and you know,
grieving together where we need to. But they're an amazing bunch of people.
So the work that everyone is doing to kind of facilitate all the conversations that
we would if we could all be together in purpose but sorry in person,
but all the necessary conversations that have come out of this pandemic. Um,
yeah, it's keep your eyes peeled, it's it's it's gonna be LITM.
You know, I'm really excited, and M I think everybody else should be.
And you know, it's great to have all the continued support that we've
had for UK Black Pride, you know. But it's not just us,
it's you know, exists loudly fun that Tanya is doing. It's the trans
initiatives. I know, Um, Doris Show she in the US, she
has been campaigning for black trans women and so to just see the collective UM
support for Black LGBT people across the world, even in you know, like
funds, people paying people's bail. You know, people's paying for housing or
for clothing, or for bills or for food. You know, across the
entire LGBT community for Black people has has been m great. And you know,
like I said, in anything and in everything that has been coming out
of this Black Lives Matter movement, UM is the consistency with which people continue
to keep doing that. You know, once you've done it once, now
we're going to make sure that you keep doing it for a very long time
because we know that you can UM. And I think that's been the most
positive thing out of this is to be is to be able to see the
overwhelming support and whether it be donations or fundraising UM. And and that has
not only come during Pride months, but UM for genuine support for you know,
the black community, which includes black LGBT people, so they all like
all Black Lives matter, and really there would be no movement without people.
And again for the people and a black Josh, So if you're you know
you're all black, well you know, if you're if your Black lives matter
is you know, is homophobic, then really the message is lost and it
needs nothing. That's so exciting about all the things that you've got on the
table coming up a pride. That was the lead of me to completely push
over them because I think it's going to be like so many things that the
community is so in usum. But also talking about pride inside um, Benny,
you're part of a single adult household because now you can have a support
bubble I live with. I was talking about this with him earlier. I
was like, if we know anyone who lives on their own, you can
make our own support bubble. But I am no, no, no,
no, I shan't be doing okay because I'm just going to say the gays
will rejoice. You queens know who you are on Twitter already. I've seen
the massage, the messy, messy, messy desperate for that emotional support.
It's not what you call it. I mean I think it is. When
I'm a single, I don't remember getting any emotional support. Ubers on the
way. If that out of the door, I'm taking no after care.
Um. But yeah, it's um Like I think it's it's a step forward.
Although I think people are just desperate to see that families. Now what
I missed my people, you know, like I'm I where people who inherently
love being around other people. Um. I you know, I grown up
with a big family. I like being with my family. I like my
own space, but I like being in the bosom of other people, even
if you know we're both doing separate things in the same room. It's that
kind of closeness to another human being, that is, someone that you actually
choose to share space with. And I think, especially within the LGBT community,
there are people that we choose. Are the people that are chosen family
that keep us saying, that give us life, you know, that we
love, that bring us happiness because for many of us, you know,
our our families may not necessarily be connected to us, and our friends become
our lifeline. And so I think not being connected to that has been you
know, quite harsh. But um, we are proactive, imaginative, resourceful
people. Um. And so the many ways in which we're all still managing
to communicate with each other and kind of be together, be together. Um,
when we are out of lockdown and we can move freely, those gatherings,
those parties, those dinner parties, you know, the movie nights,
the whatever it is that we do, probably going to be in someone's house.
Uh yeah, take the next day off work. And in fact,
like, um, you know, we already my friends and I already started
planning like a few um it blew up on it blew up on Instagram.
I think it was a video from the Shade Room where they were laughing during
a family game of Black Card Revoked um, which is a is a card
set where you kind of go through different different things under the premise of that
if you don't give the correct answer, your black card will be revoked.
And they had the Shade Room, which, if anyone knows, the Shade
Room on Instagram is a news and social media site that is predominantly from the
black and brown community. And well they have a petty edition. So yeah,
that's that's that. And you know, and black Jack. We're gonna
have a card night for the first reunion, which I think will be a
bit dangerous, but it will be a lot of fun. So no camera,
snow videos. You have to be there, just people, just people
vibing absolutely well, do you know what, It's been an absolute joy vibing
with you. I've enjoyed this so much. Like one thing I do want
to say is that this isn't going to be a podcast where we just sit
down and tell people how to be an ally. I think like it's it's
in some ways counterproductive. I think it's about educating yourself and assessing. If
you've listened to this today, you sat right, okay, get that,
get it exist, No, it's happening now we'd want me to do about
it. I think you've got to really think about what your power is.
What what capacity do you have to influence You've got your own behavior, what
you consume, what you spend your money on, what you read, what
you watch. They're the things you you also have control of thinking about outside
your own self. Who can you talk to you? You can talk to
your family, you can talk to your friends. What's one of the best
things I I've seen. You know you talked about Facebook before close. The
best thing I've seen is actually white people arguing with other white people about racism.
I was never happening before. It was always black people argument with white
people about racism. And now it's great because it's like all the people are
doing some of this heavy lifting talk to your family. Have these conversations just
it can be about check understanding. Start from a place of look, I've
learned this, I've come here, we make mistake, you know, I
think that's where where these conversations are. And then think about your organizations.
Have you know, have you done training? And I would go beyond just
a you know, a coulidiversity inclusion. I'll go beyond just unconscious buyers.
Would you know to talk about have we had a conversation about race in the
organization? And if not, let's let's let's start one um and and then
that's just my advice just as a as a as a little starting point.
But I don't want to labor that too much because this really is just I
think we don't live. It's as base for us to just chat, right,
you know, my my thing to anyone. You know, the few
friends that I have responded to that have asked for, um, you know,
some guidance in where they should look. You know, we we haven't
stopped talking about at the moment, the power of social media hashtag black Lives
Matter, their wealth of resources of people that have created lists of the books
that you should be reading. You know, the books that you should be
reading if you're a white person, How to have conversations with your family,
how to have conversations white person to white person written by white people. There
are hundreds and thousands of these posts across all of the so, you know,
even if you have an aversion to Google, like just go into an
app, hit the link and do some reading. You know, I love
Instagram. If you're not a bookworm like I am, you don't like to
read a physical book, they have graphic posts, they have interactive posts.
You know, they don't just have you know, blocked x. There are
so many different like short tips, so um yeah, help and educate yourselves
as kind of been my message to everyone, you know, even like I
said, in this time of self reflection for us as the black community,
you know, I've been reading self care. I'm reading like other black women,
other black men, you know, other other experiences and taking like little
tips of things that I could do, but also kind of finding other black
therapists or mental health is like I've just bought um my my Black Therapy.
Um it's a card set that I literally just saw on LinkedIn that another black
person shared that have been created by a black doctor that is shing Forward Black
Health, and I was like, absolutely, I'm about that, you know,
and I ordered and I ordered my own. So you know, in
any instance like that, they're always opportunities for people, so they should take
them all. Thank you so much. UM been any thoughts from you,
any kind of final thoughts, UM, just lead with common sense. I
know that wasn't shared out equally at birth, but UM, you know,
it's just it really isn't asking having having and earth to see a quality and
to push the basic human rights. UM. I second what everyone else,
what everyone else has already said, and just go out and do your own
research and find out way that you can help. There's so many organizations for
you to support. UM. Obviously you've got Black Pride, You've got the
exists lovely if you're thinking about this is specifically m lgbtre's so many beyond beyond
that, I've got to also give a shout out to the charity and which
was of Stone All Housing. You know, fifty five percent of those who
engage with our services are BAM and seventy seven percent of people who are are
supported accommodation or OBAMI, so we you know, it's UM, we're out
there doing the work and it's and I'm very proud to be at Trustee that
there's so many different and fantastic organizations. But again, as Chloe said,
go out there and do the research. I think a great place to have
a look is the exists loudly because there's so much Because actually what Tany is
now doing with the funds is she's distributing it to three charities specifically are now
now Yeah, it's the more more money, but she's raising she's adding so
yeah, like you said, you paid, like Pride exists loudly either u
UK key to Park Emergency and Hardship Fund obviously like Mermaids and Gender Intelligence supporting
the trance community and know colors UK UM buys of color like their Yeah,
like there were so many initiatives blackout like there are others that UK of course
Yeah not so yeah. The list goes on, do your research, but
think about investing UM. But yeah, thanks, like, thank you,
thank you, thank you so much for doing this. I really do appreciate
it. Ben, thank you for coming back. I've missed hearing your voice
and miss having you on the podcast, and the regular listeners will will have
too. It's been lovely to have you and I'm really proud of you what
you're doing, your exciting project. Um TVC and Chloe, thank you so
much. You know what, it's been so lovely to have a black woman's
voice on this part. Thank thank you, thank you, um and thank
you for everything that you're doing and it's been in an absolute joy awesome than
for having me. Yeah, keep up, keep up the great work.
I love a podcast, so I'm excited to hear who's on next. Um,
well, thank you, thank you, thank you for those uh you
know, the drill. Please write in with any questioned any kind of I'd
like if you need any advice, So would just have any comments. Um
obviously please do follow us at on the Latch on Twitter, on the Latch
podcast on Insta ramis promise promised, we'll start playing. But yeah, until
next time. Thank you all so much. Day safe, look after each
other and remember the Black Lives Matter. Kings. B Cervier rainings, Hemus
Bakers to user rainings. He considered workers