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Thank you for listening to Pictures Media
Radio. Welcome to Policy and Rights,

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the show about the government, policy
and human rights. Welcome back to Policy

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and Rights here in Depictions Media Radio. I'm your host, Michael Cloggs.

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I'm about to have a conversation with
a actor and well a TV personality that

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believes that Israel and Palestine really does
need to work things out. They need

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to come to some sort of agreement. And we're going to have a conversation

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a little bit about, you know, events after October seventh, twenty three,

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and in a little bit of history
before that, and a little bit

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about what we have been told through
the years, living outside of the area

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and having somewhat of well, Karen
has a newly completely Jewish background, and

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of course I have a background that
has a lot of Judaism in it,

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and what we've been told about why
it's so important for Israel to be able

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to defend itself and why that they
should be allowed a carte blanc to be

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able to defend themselves because they're surrounded
by such hostile people. But the real

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question is is that really true?
Ka appeared on Zoom and she's wearing a

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T shirt that represents a dance school, and we're gonna have We're also going

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to talk about, you know,
there was culture in this area, that

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the children were in school, that
there were schools and areas for the kids

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to play in everything, how all
that has been torn apart, and what

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is the end to allowing Israel to
destroy Gaza to the point that they have.

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At what point do we say,
hey, you've gone too far?

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And at what point do we say
that this is genocide which is illegal according

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to all international laws. And of
course now we're looking at uprisings around the

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world at different university students who are
saying, hey, we need to see

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this start to be handled differently.
So why don't we jump into the conversation

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that I had with Kara about what's
going on in Palestine. Okay, so

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welcome back, everybody. I'm here
today with Carara Pifco and we're gonna talk

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about some this is real life,
heartbreaking stuff about Palestine, Gaza and Cara

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right now is wearing a T shirt
that represents a dance school in Gaza.

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It was bombed some I'll get Karen
to correct me on this. I believe

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some of the children were hurt.
If if not maybe even killed. And

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why don't we get Karen Is on
the show and then we'll start talking with

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her about So, Cara, what
what exactly your your friends that they own?

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The own the camp Breakers. It
is called camp Breakers. They're They're

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not anybody I know personally, They're
not my direct friends. These are a

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group of dancers who have become teachers
who have been running a school for many

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years there and I just discovered them
through following what's happening there and saw the

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joy, the light, the connection
that they were bringing to dance students there

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as a mode of expression. They're
discovering their own styles. They're creating their

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own styles through the pain and the
grief of what they're experiencing. So yes,

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many of the children who were part
of their dance school were martyred and

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killed by Israel, because I'd like
to speak freely here. And they have

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been digging through the rubble, finding
photos and trying to collect bits and pieces

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to be able to They now teach
again in a slightly swept out blown open

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version of their school as well as
on the street. And I think what

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they do is remarkable. So you
can go to on Instagram anyway at Camp

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Breakers b R e A k E
r z or Z to support that school.

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Yeah, I mean, the region
itself is rich with culture. It's

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a you know, it's there's some
that want to paint the Palestine is just

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being a bunch of terrorists. But
that's not that's not true. There's rich

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culture, there's people who want to
do good in our world that they are

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living there and have been hurt,
right, Yeah, for sure, there's

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so much to go on on what
you just said. So listen, let

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me state first of all that I
feel like as an advocate, my purpose

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is to first foremost bring attention to
the voices on the ground. So I'm

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purely here to draw attention to those
voices on the ground who are actually experiencing

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and living the horrors of what is
happening every day there. To the beauty

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of the people and what you just
said, specifically, I can draw people's

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attention to Bisan Bsan, who is
at Perhaps I can send you the link

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afterwards to connect. Yeah, well
we'll put all the links in the notes

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later on. Yeah, thick,
but she's a beautiful example. Before October

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seventh, she was a student of
the anthropology of gaza, and so she

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was a filmmaker and she would walk
around and take you into the history of

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this building and that building, and
this part of the culture and that part

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of the culture, the food,
the families. So when the most active

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recent campaigns since October seventh destruction began, it became instead a study of everything

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that they were losing as they were
losing it, and how the culture was

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adapting in spite of this kind of
destruction. And the other piece that you

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said that I'd love to address that
I think is part of the vehicle of

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colonial control of the narrative is historically
a land without a people for a people

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without a land, which is part
of the Zionist bog line, if you

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will, which I can speak to
a little bit because that's part of my

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personal journey inside this. But it's
certainly not a land without people. This

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is a beautiful, rich culture,
and I think that's part of the good

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that is coming out of this.
If one must seek a overlining, is

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the world movement of a true moral
army, contrary to what Israel calls itself,

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of the youth movement, the grassroots
movements, the unifying of just your

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whole platform of a humanitarian thinking that
says, this is bonkers. We refuse

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to sit by and watch as you
test chemical weapons on an unarmed civilian population.

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So I should probably address at some
point, you know, the significance

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of Hamas and what happens on October
seventh. But I think the long story

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short of it is nothing about what's
happening started on October seventh. Oh well,

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well, and here's here's the cloud
to that is, the history starts

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for the colonialism stry at the end
of World War two. Please, yeah,

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so this is so this this has
been going on for decades. The

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Hamas isn't their breaking point didn't start
October seventh. It goes back decades,

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right, yeah, so yes,
yeah, I mean, and it was

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once a very beautiful place and hopefully
will be again. It certainly was an

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incredibly beautiful place, and it's tragic
to see all of that being bombed on

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a regular basis. The white phosphorus
that's being used is a war crime.

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That is just yeah, demonic.
I mean, the approaches that they're using

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are demonic, Even the small things
that I think a lot of people perhaps

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don't know about unless they're like saturating
themselves in these experiences of people on the

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ground, is just the sound of
the drone constantly that all of the time,

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which is an indication of an announcement
coming of clear the area, or

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you're going to be shot, or
simply just being shot. You're your child,

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that you're that you're holding the hand
of dropping to the ground, you're

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going to get food and holding a
bag of flour and being shot, holding

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a white flag and being shot to
the ground. I mean, this is

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sniper technology that is used to take
out civilians. It's it's a land clear,

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it's a land grab. Yeah,
I'm sure that that that that part

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is actually true. Clear out as
many people as you can and then move

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your settlers. In the definition of
genocide, yeah, let's get into that

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though. Is a is is is
what happening there? Is it truly genocide?

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You know, I know that we
all know that it's hit the International

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Justice Court? Is Is it accurate? Is this genocide? All? Right?

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So again, I am an actor, I'm a human humanitarian, I'm

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a mother. I'm not a politician. So you know, take everything I

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say with a grain of salt.
So in my opinion, call it what

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you will. First of all,
like Whether or not someone refuses to use

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the word genocide, it still doesn't
change how things are being managed there.

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The obliteration of entire family lines,
the carpet bombing of entire families, the

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raising of entire cities, the before
and after photos that the people under the

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rubble that are still buried and found. It's a mass killing in huge numbers

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in a very small period of time
that is going completely unmeasured, unrestrained in

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any way. The impunity of these
attacks is unseen. We haven't seen it

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anywhere else in this amount of bombing
in a highly populated area of the world.

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Yes, I would absolutely stand behind
the word genocide, and the fact

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that they're calling it a plausible genocide
is a start. And I think that's

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odd terminology, Like what does that
really mean? I can't even I can't

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even think of how you' would defined
pousible genouside. Yeah, I found that

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to be odd, languaging. I
think what that comes from is the politics

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at hand, the deep relationships that
go beyond any clear vision of humanity of

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any kind that allows people to hold
on to a rhetoric that has fed to

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them, which perhaps leads to the
kind of harsher way to say to Zionist

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brainwashing, which is exactly what happens
in schools there. I've heard from Israeli

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is that I have come into contact
with their my own family, there's this

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belief system. Let me speak from
just my own personal perspective on it for

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a moment. I was raised as
a secular Jewish child person and humanistic we

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were called the Secular Jewish Humanistic Association
was the Sunday school that I went to,

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and what I would call what I
was raised in is as like a

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soft Zionism or a liberal Zionism or
a leftist Zionism. As I think the

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languaging that was used what I was
growing up and graduating from high school,

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I felt a kind of guilt that
if I was a good Jewish person,

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I would go to Israel, I
would spend a year there, like that's

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what I should be doing, right, was sort of how I was raised

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and much like the very pointed if
not brainwashing, I'm trying to use language

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that perhaps adds a little bit of
understanding of the thought process there, of

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controlling of the narrative of what the
relationship is to Palestinians. For israelis that

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has completely come apart for me.
Now, long story short, I really

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recommend people watch the movie Israelism.
Have you seen that one? No,

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I actually haven't seen that one.
Check it out look for that. We'll

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also place it in the note.
Yeah. Yes, to means I'm not

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personally associated with that film in any
way. It's just another one that I

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came across and I found that it
was a good one for me to watch

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with family members or people that I
knew that couldn't quite grasp the shift of

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what's going on. Israel just defending
itself. The attack from Hamas was awful,

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and what's Israel supposed to do?
Right? So to that, what

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we're seeing is not really a response
to October seventh, right, what we're

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seeing is a massive excuse to exercise
plans that have been in place since the

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sixties. The port that they're building
now with huge amounts of construction trucks that

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are going in and clearing rubble and
building this very beautiful looking for aid.

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Give me a break is part of
it fits miraculously exactly like the plans that

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show where they're trying to create a
second canal so can operate more trade through

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this canal that doesn't exist yet,
right, So anyway, for people who

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are still waking up to the shift
from colonial thinking to humanitarian thinking, let's

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call it, I did find Israelism
was a very good way to create opportunities

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for dialogue between people who are perhaps
coming at it from a different angle.

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It was a good path to navigating
through seeming confrontation. So, just to

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finish that thought for me, I
am embarrassed to say that for me,

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this awakening did come after October,
soon after October seventh. That prior to

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that, I carried the way,
carried the line of of soft Zionist thinking.

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And it was only as I watched
the aftermath of what was happening that

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I started, like so many others, to do my research and to wake

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up. Yeah, yeah, I
think I think my awakening to to what

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to to the to the idea that
Israel isn't just simply defending itself and simply

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trying to take over takeover, takeover
came a few years ago during the pandemic,

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when I started listening listening to the
rhetoric that was being put out there

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by the UN ambassador from Israel versus
the Palestinian. One one was was using

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uh language of you're not listening to
Israel. Israel is always going to be

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right, and the other ones using
language can you please just look at the

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situation? And I was like,
well, wait a second, why would

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he just want you to look at
this situation while the other guy is saying

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that we're always right. Yeah,
and it makes you think right, and

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that was your like, wait a
second, yeah, because because I grew

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up with with I remember in the
seventies that there was some sort of an

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attack and of course the Israeli war
machine took action and it pushed the the

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the Muslims back away again from from
Jerusalem or something I think it was or

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something. It was like I was
I was only like maybe nine years old

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or something like that. So it's
just so a little fuzzy, you know,

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but my because I do have have
a Jewish background, also that they

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were my parents are saying whoa,
no, they're right, and and and

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the Muslim people they you know,
they represent evil. And it was like

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and then part of that awakening was
nine to eleven when I realized that I'm

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I'm sitting there talking to the and
a mom it's like he's he wants peace.

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So the average person in the religious
average religious leader on either side,

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both rabbi and a mom, they
want peace for these people. They won't.

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It's the governments that are pushing the
the destruction and for what. And

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that's the question, what is the
endpoint? Right? Like you said,

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they're building this this port so yeah, you know, well, like you

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said, you know, it's the
there's radicalization that elevates things to a whole

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other level. And to note as
well that you know, there are moms

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who have been quiet through all of
this. There's rabbis who have been siding

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with Israel for sure, but there's
also you know, Yemen who will you

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know, has completely come to some
very active choices to try to bring attention

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to a people that are being so
wildly ignored, which is another I'm happy

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you were open to having this conversation
today and for the work that you're doing,

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because anything we can do to bring
a wake up call to just maybe

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I could say that in a softer
way, to bring an invitation to look

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deeper. Yes, that's a better
way to say it. Right, What

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do you think with all that?
What do you think of of the sit

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ins in the in the protests because
now the universities across Europe and Asia are

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joining in as well as North America
joining in. And what do you what

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do you think about about all that? And then there was violence in Colombia

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University in New York City. Uh, I guess it was two days ago.

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What do you think. I think
it's indicative of what I hope is.

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You know, you can look to
prophecy for it as well of that

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aside, a great change, change
is coming, you know, it's it's

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it's another layer of you know,
talk about a revolutionle you know, may

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it be finally so that we are
coming to through the use of the connectivity

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that we have on the internet.
One of the reasons why you know,

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what's happening in Gaza and the West
Bank is so popularized, if you will,

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is because you know, they've been
We've got our cell phones the right

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up there in the horrors of what
is occurring. So nobody can say I

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had no idea. I didn't know
it was so bad. I didn't learn

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about it until I was in my
history class one hundred and fifty years later.

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Give me a break. This is
like, you know, my kids

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were off school for Armenian Genocide Day, and I'm grateful that that's being recognized.

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And I'm like, dude, we've
got a live genocide happening right the

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heck now. So anyway, I
think it is remarkable, beautiful, powerful.

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I think it is indicative of what
is happening in terms of the youth

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movement saying no, I refuse to
take part, I refuse to turn a

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blind eye. There's just there's been
phases I've been noticing as I've been getting

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deeper into what the phases, where
there's opportunities for for the the push of

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attention to drop off, and activists
will say, you know, keep talking

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about Palestine, keep talking about Palestine, keep talking about Palestine, Okay.

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And I think part of what we're
seeing here is that feeling of like I

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can't stop, like I can't until
it's over. Like they're they're bombing Rafa

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refugee camps. Now, I mean
because you're planning there's still planning on bombing

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Rafa. No, they are bombing
Raffia. They have started bombing Rafa.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I mean
it's uh that there's just I think everybody

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who is awake to what is occurring
is looking for what else can I do?

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Right? And so I think that's
why you're seeing stronger populations of people

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showing up for protests and to what
you're saying about the brutality that's happening there,

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This is perhaps part of what will
be the wake up call as well.

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Yeah, because we're seeing, just
as we've been advised that Israeli troops

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have trained American the police, So
we're seeing the same holds, the same

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approaches, the same way of breaking
people down, the same complete obliteration of

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humanitarian laws. And perhaps this is
part of what will wake some people out

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of the thought that I've heard a
lot as well of well, you know,

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it's so far away, it's always
crazy over there. Yeah. Well,

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we could have a whole conversation around
the colonialism that exists around the world

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and including in North America, but
I really want to focus on helping these

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people on the ground get their home
back. Yeah. Yeah, everybody deserves

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that, right, say that again. Everybody deserves a home, a safe

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home. That's yes, yes,
of course, And what they're facing is

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a hope beyond hope that that that
will be possible. Again. I mean,

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you see people that are crossing back
from the south to the north just

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to see what's left. And numerous
examples of people being shot or bombed or

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run over by live by tanks.
Live, I mean the imagery of of

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what is occurring there. I don't
know if everybody's seeing the same things.

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You know, people are being found
murdered with having been bound for for long

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periods of time. You know,
they're they're they're they're being shot children,

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Like you can see the cables,
the rip ties that are that are big

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because it was around a child's set
of bound wrists. It goes on and

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on. Yeah, I forgot what
you were saying just before that. Yeah,

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it's the scene is beyond horrendous.
And there's been reports from many humanitarian

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people who said they just want to
be able to go in there and do

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the do their work and help the
people. Yeah. Well that was it

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about people crossing back to the north
to get back to their homes. And

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I did see footage of a boy
who found his what was rubble of his

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house and found his bike under the
rubble and was able to pull that out

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and he was so happy. I
saw another boy who was using one of

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the umbrellas that came down from the
the aid boxes and was holding it behind

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his bicycle, entertaining some of the
younger kids, like a big kite behind

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behind his bicycle. And kites are
a huge thing there. There's huge kite

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festivals that happen there, and so
as a result of that being part of

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the youth culture, people are creating
kites out of out of things that they

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can. It's it's the resourcefulness,
the adaptations, the unity of family,

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the desire to share with with with
each other, with with animals, the

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there really is a sense I believe
of the heart of the world is in

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Palestine, that this this is a
wake up call for all of us and

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and and that Palestine holds the heart
of the world. I do believe and

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feel that. Now, yeah,
well, since we're going to start running

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out of time soon, so best
advice if we wanted to be peacefully protests.

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I don't want to see any more
violence, but we do we but

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peaceful protest, how do we have
best advice for how we can do that?

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Sure looking up organizations that are near
you. Obviously, who knows who

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who's listening, But Jewish Voices for
Peace is a good organization to follow.

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Democracy Now is a good organization to
follow. Code Pink does a lot of

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really interesting activity. They go into
Congress, they're at the flotilla. There's

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that freedom flotilla that's trying to make
its way out of Turkey to bring aid.

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Code Pink is a really good one
to follow. Just keep an eye

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on what Motaz is up to.
He's a journalist if your listeners aren't up

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on him, who is a Gaza
citizen and his photographic works were so powerful

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that it really got the world attention, and he got out and he is

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now making the rounds on various protests
talk shows to keep the voice alive outside

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of Gaza. So keep an eye
on what he's doing. Call to Action

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Now is another group, or you
can just look up other organizations that are

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more close to you to take part
in terms of keeping safe, you know,

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be smart. All of these organizations
will have at least the ones that

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I've been listing, will have guide
lists, mandates of how to stay safe,

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what to do and not do.
Listen to the organizers and follow your

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own instincts of what's enough for you. I guess I would say also,

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so I think everybody's looking for how
to step up whatever it is you're doing.

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So with that, whatever you can
do is great. I think I

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believe that do whatever you can if
you can boycott, boycott. There's an

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app called no Thanks, which is
another one that we could perhaps link to

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where you can look up what products
are in the participation of funding the very

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bombs that are melting people on a
daily basis. Sorry, it's just it's

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it's hard. It's a lot industry
and the traumas of what's occurring on a

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00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.680
daily basis. I have children,
you know, every time we eat,

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00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:56.279
it's like it's it's on my mind
all the time. And perhaps I'll end

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00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:08.039
with another story of what motivates me
inside of this. My grandfather escaped the

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Holocaust by being put on a wagon
of dead bodies. He was not dead,

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he was put onto this wagon,
and that wagon is what began his

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journey to Canada, where my mother, my family, my children all exist

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because of that. And I saw
an image early in the aftermath of October

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seventh that I just I saw of
those two things. And so with all

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of the other people of the Jewish
background that say not in my name,

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not a name, Yeah, yeah, all right, thank you, so

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much. Karen, It's been wonderful
having you, and you're right not my

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name, yeah, not in any
of our names. Cease fire, now

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free Palestine. Okay. I really
want to thank Kara Pivko for appearing on

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our show. It was a true
honor to be able to meet her and

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00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:24.880
to speak with her about the issues
and how we need to create a better

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00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:30.200
world for our children. And we
even said that we hope that our grandchildren

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will find that we'll be born into
a world that finds that peace. While

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that is all great, and hope
that we all need to work together to

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00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:50.680
create that world of peace, we
can't be complacent about it. We need

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to be active. So I'm going
to ask that when when you're done listening,

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00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:05.440
please go to the show, find
the links that's that are there,

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00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:19.559
and go to the depictions dot media
and there there will be also a a

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00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:23.840
place there where you can click on
links to groups that are like minded in

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00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:32.679
let's find peace. Let's find a
way to work together, and let's find

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00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:39.920
a way for Palestine and Israel to
coexist together and have the people who just

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00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:45.440
just the simple people who want to
live there be able to live there without

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00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:52.519
having to hear the noises of the
drones or bombs, explosions, or any

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00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:58.920
of the any of that, let
there be peace. So thank you for

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00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:43.599
listening and we will talk to you
next time. The show has been produced

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00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:50.679
by Depictions Media. Please contact us
at depictions dot media for more information