WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:09.560 Welcome to Stories of Special Forces Operators Podcast. Listen to some of the bravest 2 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:25.480 and toughest people on the planet share their stories. Sit back and enjoy. 3 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.800 Welcome Back. We have a great guest today, Dan Shilling, and we're 4 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:35.200 gonna be talking about his career in special Ops as well as his book Alone 5 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:39.479 at Dawn. It's about Medal of Honor recipient John Chapman and the untold story 6 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:44.439 of the world's deadly at Special Operations Force. I know you're wondering who is 7 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:48.240 Dan Shilling. Well. Dan Shillings a thirty year Special Operations in Combat Control 8 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:53.200 vetterment. Dan Shillis had numerous combat and clandestine deployments around the world, including 9 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:58.159 the operation popularly known as Blackhawk Down, where he was credited with saving the 10 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.880 lives of a ranger and seal under fire. I will talk a little bit 11 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:03.640 about that later on in the show. He later founded and then served as 12 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.840 the first commander of two Special Operation squadrons. He's an adrenaline enthusiast. He 13 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.359 holds the Giinness World Record for most base jumps in twenty four hours and as 14 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:15.280 a mountain speed wing pilots. That's right, folks, he keeps himself busy 15 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:19.120 then and is also a motivational speaker. It consults internationally on security manager. 16 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:23.319 He's got another great book called Awareness that you highly recommend. But before we 17 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.359 get started, you know what to do. Make sure to share, subscribe, 18 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.480 hit that I like button. You know we like it. And before 19 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:30.560 we get started, let me give you a little insight into the book. 20 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.560 Just kind of got to get your appetite wet. Here in the pre dawn 21 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.680 hours of March fourth, two thousand and two, just below the ten four 22 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.319 hundred and sixty nine foot peak of a mountain in eastern Afghanistan, a fierce 23 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:46.120 battle raged out numbered by al Qaeda fighters, Air Force combat Controller John Chapman 24 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.560 and a handful of Navy seals struggled to take the summit in a desperate bid 25 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.719 to find a lost's teammate. Chatman, leaving the charge, was greatly wounded 26 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.680 in the initial assault. Believing he was dead. To see a leader ordered 27 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.920 to retreat, Chapman regained consciousness alone with the enemy closing in on three sides. 28 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.560 I'll leave it there as we continue to talk about it. Of course, 29 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:06.879 we're only going to touch the tip of the iceberg of the book let's 30 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:08.599 not waste any more time. Welcome to the show, mister Dan Shillane. 31 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:14.080 Welcome, sir Carlos. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to 32 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:17.479 talk with you and reach your audience. Thank you very much again, and 33 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:22.560 I know I've mentioned it before on our other podcast, Spycraft. Thank you 34 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:24.439 very much for your service. You know, that's one of the first things 35 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.039 I wanted to start off before we get to your book Alone a Don which 36 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.000 is a great read. It's got some great reviews. People we've interviewed as 37 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:35.599 well. Pete Blaber another great one, Delta Force. Tell us a little 38 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.960 bit about it. Yeah, nice guy too. Tell us a little bit 39 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:45.800 about what got you motivated to become a special ops. Well, it always 40 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:51.199 comes back to for many guys, it comes back to a girl. So 41 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.080 the girl I was dating at the time reached into my chest and very graciously 42 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.680 grabbed my heart, ripped it out and crushed it. And I was looking 43 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:04.360 for something to do, and I had, you know, all my uncles, 44 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.479 my father, my mother were all in World War Two. So I 45 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.439 grew up in this generation of you know, watching World War two movies. 46 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:15.000 You know, Lee Marvin and John Wayne doesn't matter who. But and I 47 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:16.759 thought, man, I'm looking for something different. And I bumped into an 48 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:22.360 Army recruiter who told me, we will pay you to jump out of airplanes. 49 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:25.080 And it had never occurred to me in my life. Adrenaline fueled as 50 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.439 I am, and it never occurred to me at that point in my life 51 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:30.360 to jump out of an airplane. I went, I'm in sign me up. 52 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:35.159 So I started as an Army grunt paratrooper and it was great. I 53 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.759 loved it, humping a rock in a sixty. And it was a meritocracy, 54 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:40.199 you know, the military. The great thing about the military is it's 55 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:46.520 a leveler. Doesn't matter where you came from demographically, you know what your 56 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.080 advantages were as in childhood, None of that matters. It's what you put 57 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.599 into this thing that is the US military. And from there I just found 58 00:03:54.599 --> 00:04:00.479 my way serendipitously into combat control, which I had never heard of either, 59 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:02.439 which is one of the reasons I wrote alone at don Is. No one 60 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.319 knows about these guys. And I found my way there, found a home 61 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:11.680 man, and then I just never looked back. I loved being part of 62 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:15.839 that really special community and part of the joint community, and the opportunity to 63 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:20.519 really push yourself against the world's best and measure yourself against these other people. 64 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:27.199 It was a great opportunity. And you know what, my career isn't really 65 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.759 a chart that you can plot. It's more like a warshock blot because I 66 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:33.160 just went here and there, and I was in the army, that is 67 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:35.319 in the Air Force, is in the army, that isn't the Air Force. 68 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.879 And you know, for me, I just went where I thought things 69 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.160 would be interesting, and I kind of lived my life that way. But 70 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.399 I'll tell you what I was. I was very fortunate to have found my 71 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.120 way into the communities that I did and did. You worked after the special 72 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:56.319 operations career, you worked with three later agencies as well, if I'm correct. 73 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:01.199 Yeah, I've done so my last assignment in the military last without getting 74 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:05.560 in anything really sensitive or classified. You know, there's a lot of collaboration, 75 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:10.680 especially in the in the in the war in Afghanistan and some of the 76 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:15.480 other places that I've worked with. The intelligence community, So the ICE, 77 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.120 which is seventeen organizations, there's a lot of there's a lot of people with 78 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.040 a lot of specializations. So yeah, I spent a bunch of time with 79 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.360 the CIA, spent a lot of time in N S A and S S 80 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:29.360 A. You know, N G I A all the a's, FBI, 81 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.199 C T. You get to, you get to you get to see these 82 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:38.079 other communities again. And that opened up some doors and uh and opened up 83 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.560 my eyes to some different worlds that you wouldn't normally see, even in white 84 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.680 special ops. You know, there's a big difference between white ops and black 85 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:48.079 ops. And it's fascinating and so for me, I enjoyed that. But 86 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:53.279 when I retired, I I I wasn't interested in going to work for one 87 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:58.800 of those agencies because I'd rather be speed flying, writing books and hanging out 88 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:01.240 with my wife and I all the time. That's what I do. Well, 89 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.240 that's awesome, Yeah, I think Actually, I remember you were on 90 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.759 our Situational Awareness podcast. That's the one you were on. Yeah, that's 91 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:10.519 right. Because the book he wrote, Folks, is called The Power of 92 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.439 Awareness and Other Secrets from the World's Foremost Spies, Detectives and Special Operators and 93 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:16.199 how to Stay safe and Save your Life. And it's a great book. 94 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.160 Highly recommend that. We're going to talk a little bit more about. He's 95 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:23.720 got an upcoming course and as well, so we'll talk more about that towards 96 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.360 the end of the show. I'm going to shift gears a little bit. 97 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:29.319 Actually before that would make a comment. It's kind of funny. I always 98 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:31.759 when I have people on special operations or military I always think it's something like 99 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:35.240 Rambo that motivated them. And I was surprised how many people actually were motivated 100 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:39.920 by Rambo or John Wayne in the Green Bereat movie. Did that ever have 101 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.720 any influence at all? Or now? No, it wasn't movies in fact. 102 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.759 And you know, I again, I sort of joined the military in 103 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.120 a lark because I just wanted to try something new in life. But what 104 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:54.079 it really does is it's a portal, right, and it allows you to 105 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.839 get into these things that you then realize have more value than the perception of 106 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.600 popular media. And in my case, and I think this is common for 107 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.000 a lot of men and women who get into these communities. Man, I 108 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:09.879 really can I do this? You know? Can? I Am I capable 109 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:14.759 of these things that these other people that I see doing and I find interesting? 110 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.079 I mean I got paid to skydive, scuba dive, blow stuff up, 111 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.120 throw motorcycles out of airplanes. I mean you know, it's it's really 112 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.360 fun but miserable stuff at the same time. And to be able to do 113 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.639 that, I think for me it was I wanted to be the best in 114 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:35.319 the world at what I did, and I was very fortunate to be able 115 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:41.680 to do that and be able to say that now. It's all those things 116 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.360 have to come with I think some perspective and context and what I look at 117 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.040 now. I was just talking with one of our operators. I also was 118 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:51.720 going to call my a young operator. He's been in for seventeen years. 119 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:57.720 But you know, there's so much more capable than I was twenty or thirty 120 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.639 years ago. The men that we produce now are much more capable than the 121 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:07.000 generation that I was part of eighties nineties, the war. I mean I 122 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.079 retired till twenty sixteen, and we were more capable, I think in a 123 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:16.519 lot of ways, from training and the resources and the techniques, you know, 124 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.399 tactics and procedures than the Vietnam generation that raised me. Not that we're 125 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:26.199 better than those people or these people are better than us, but we can 126 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:33.720 do more. And it's an interesting thing to watch in evolution warfare, that's 127 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.240 fascinating. I have spoken to some individuals and special opp communities. And that's 128 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.480 one of the things they mentioned that there is a difference. Obviously much more 129 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:45.679 technically savvy now, right of course. Yeah, but also the character of 130 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:48.080 the individual has been changed a little bit, and not in a sense of 131 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.440 good bad character, but in the sense of handling adversity and grit. You 132 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:58.639 know, when I've interviewed mc V sogs, it's remarkable. These guys were 133 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.440 twenty years old, and I'm listening to their stories and I'm thinking, really, 134 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:07.960 you went through all that at twenty that's unbelievable. And yeah, it's 135 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.360 a very different world. Yeah, that's what you know. And that I 136 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.519 think what you're touching on too, Carlos is in special ops you tend to 137 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.639 get more mature men women. I don't mean like they're more mature people. 138 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.039 They have matured in their evolution. They have more time on planet, more 139 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.919 time in the service, and so and then they have a lot of longevity 140 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.879 inside those communities. And so these are pretty pretty wise people, you know. 141 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.639 And I mean I think back to black Hawk Down, you know, 142 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.799 Gothic Serpent, myself, the Delta operators. Most of these people were like 143 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:45.879 late twenties at the at the earliest or they're in their thirties. The rangers 144 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.799 we had with us, the average age was nineteen. Man, that's a 145 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:54.720 there's a big disparity between being nineteen in Mogadishu, Somali in October of nineteen 146 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.759 ninety three and being thirty in that same space and having you know, I 147 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.519 think had been in for like eight or nine years or something at that point. 148 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.039 But having you know, and I've been working with Delta Force and still 149 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:09.159 Team six, and you know, like you're with these people and you're learning 150 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.960 from them. You're the best in your own community, in the Air Force 151 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.840 Special Ops community, but you that that brings a lot of salt into that 152 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:24.240 those gunfights and yeah, and so you know, I think it's it's interesting. 153 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:28.080 So those guys from from back in Vietnam, I think, by and 154 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.399 large, were much younger people when you if you did it, if you 155 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.679 could map that, you'd find that they're much younger than the guys who what 156 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.840 we were rolling around with in the Horn of Africa or the Arabian and Peninsula, 157 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:43.360 or Afghanistan and Iraq. You know, throughout the war years that we've 158 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.759 had the last two decades, our guys tend to be older. I mean 159 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:52.519 I was like fifty years old. I'm still going to do it. That's 160 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.960 the interesting things. I know. We've been fortunate and blessed enough to interview 161 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.879 several people who went through that battle, just like yourself. By the way, 162 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.320 boat folks, Dan Shilling, that's s C H I L L I 163 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.000 n G the book. He also wrote a book called The Battle of Moga 164 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.919 d Shu, The First Hand Accounts from the Men of Task Force Ranger. 165 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:16.000 It's another great read too. That's the interesting things. I've interviewed Brad Thomas, 166 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.240 you might know him. I've interviewed Kenny Thomas. I don't think it's 167 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:28.159 Kenny. He's a musician now too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, my 168 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.799 apologies, Kenny. So it's Kenny Thomas. And then we have Tom Saturley. 169 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:37.919 We've interviewed him and Kyle Lamb. Kyle's Kyle's Kyle's got a guy with 170 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.240 a lot of standing in a lot of communities. He's a pretty remarkable individual. 171 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.879 Well, all those guys are remarkable. He had a lot of salt 172 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:46.799 back then, I think when he was in the Battle of Moga Dhu. 173 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:48.360 But some of the other ones, when they're just like your story telling me. 174 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.039 Some of these guys have never seen combat yet, even though they were 175 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.480 in special ops, and then they get thrown in there. And it was 176 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.279 supposed to be a really simple mission, if I remember correctly, to a 177 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:01.519 certain dega, it was a complex. It was a complex in execution in 178 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:07.559 that it had like anything that we do now, there's you know, there's 179 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.320 there's two hundred guys rolling out on these on these assaults or these these you 180 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.559 know, capture missions, but there's probably like fifteen to twenty really key people 181 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:22.279 because who are responsible for something that has to happen, and so you know, 182 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:26.320 it's quite sophisticated. And back then you got to realize we didn't have 183 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:31.360 ISR the same way we just got those helicopters. We had this I think 184 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.279 it was Westpact Company, and we had a ball mounted on a on a 185 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:39.200 huge five thirty I think, And you know, we didn't have the kind 186 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.000 of stuff we do now. But it was a remarkable task force for its 187 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:48.840 time. It was it was really amazingly capable. I always like to point 188 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:54.440 out that, you know, that single gunfight was two hundred guys against thousands 189 00:12:54.480 --> 00:13:00.519 and thousands and thousands of people and I challenge any other country in the world 190 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.720 to put two hundred guys in that position and not only have one guy walk 191 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:09.120 out alive, which I don't think would happen. We prosecuted the mission and 192 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.399 executed it successfully. The mission that day was one hundred percent successful. We 193 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:16.159 would have to get these guys. We got cost US eighteen Americans, cost 194 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.000 us them always one thousand and fifteen hundred people. We lost some helicopters, 195 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.480 but the fact is we prosecuted the mission. And you know what, US 196 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:28.440 Special Operations can do anything that they set their mind to. You know, 197 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:33.120 you made the point that because I think Kenny was saying, how about how 198 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.000 different it would have been if it would have had some of their equipment with 199 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.960 them, the night vision and things of that nature. And I think I 200 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:43.519 saw I had. I never rolled without mine. Oh that's right. Yeah, 201 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.679 that's interesting. It's a fascinating thing. Now, what was your story, 202 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.720 because you mentioned some of it in the book, and of course we 203 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.759 don't want to give everything away, but what did you do? Tell us 204 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:54.360 a little bit about your experience in Loga Dshue. How was it for you? 205 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:00.279 Well, uh, you know, I was a combat controllers to the 206 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.679 two four. So I've been working over at Delta Force when it first came 207 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:09.200 up earlier in the spring, and then the mission sort of morphed a little 208 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.440 bit in forced composition. The focus of the mission stayed the same at least 209 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:20.639 in concept, but which was to go and stabilize some things and capture this 210 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:26.279 warlord and dismantle the Somali National Alliance, which was kind of a militia for 211 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:31.240 Muhammad add and the Habber Ghetter clan. So all that's so much geopolitics, 212 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:37.320 some of that tactics, some of that battlefield reality in that environment in a 213 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.159 city of a million people. So for me, I ended up being assigned 214 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.240 to the Rangers. I came off the Delta part of the mission because I 215 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.720 had already rotated out, but I had been one of the original planners for 216 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:52.200 the whole deployment. So my boss, my chief, sent me, He's 217 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.279 like, go back over to Delta, get yourself a job. I'm like, 218 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:00.480 okay, I can do that. Because it had passed on to Bray 219 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.879 and another guy named Dave Schnorr, who were combat controllers, and that's who 220 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.919 was with the Delta guys on the assault. So I ended up being part 221 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:15.279 of the Ranger Convoy Force and worked for the Ranger Battalion commander. And you 222 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.440 know, as a common controller, I'm there to interface between air components and 223 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:22.840 various ground components and you know, the great capability. This is sort of 224 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:28.679 getting into the topic of alone a don but in combat control in general is 225 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:35.759 combat controllers are this self organizing battlefield connectivity that doesn't exist anywhere else. We 226 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.360 understand the airplan, we understand the ground plan. We're the guys who can 227 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.840 provide the effects on the ground from the air, and we know how to 228 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.279 coordinate things and we just naturally do this and even people when they don't. 229 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:54.919 You don't have us on the mission, your mission is is is in many 230 00:15:54.919 --> 00:16:00.000 ways degraded if it's if it's a joint mission, and you know, inexperienced 231 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:04.080 commanders can can fall victim to that. But guys who were control a lot, 232 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.080 whether or as operators or commanders, do not like to leave, you 233 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.879 know, the front gate without them. And so that was my job in 234 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.600 Somalia. But in the execution of the gunfight, I didn't pack a lot 235 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:19.799 of ammunition back then, and because if things go really bad, I'm gonna 236 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.960 be on the radio. That was my reasoning. And man, you know, 237 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:26.399 on that day, in a lot of ways, I was just another 238 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.919 guy. I was. I was doing my comic control job, communicating with 239 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.720 people and talking about this and that. But I ended up shooting a lot 240 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.679 of people too, man, and I ran out of ammunition, and that 241 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:45.120 was an unfortunate lesson learned in my In my case was that I just have 242 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.360 to add more weight to my body. And I'm already as a combat controller, 243 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.159 You're already carrying more weight than anybody else on the battlefield. It's all 244 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.480 radios, it's all batteries. Can't run out of battery, you know, 245 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.799 and so and having all this other stuff, whether it's beacons, all the 246 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.320 other things that go along with that. Especially back then, you know, 247 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.279 the other guys were rolling around with h gear and body armor and a line 248 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:08.599 belt and AMMO. I had all that too, and I had like seventy 249 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.759 five pounds of rock on my back. So when I do for controls with 250 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.880 the Rangers, man, they're rolling around with just water and AMMO, and 251 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.559 I'm like, I'm humping. I'm humping a lot of more weight. And 252 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.559 you just have to be able to perform as well. As those guys that 253 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.599 you're with, and it's really daunting to be a combat controller. Man. 254 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.440 I'll tell you. That's part of the reason I wrote the book. And 255 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.000 were you I guess you all sounds like you were surprised when things turned as 256 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.559 they did and all of a sudden you had to engage in combat. Do 257 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.519 you remember what you thought, like, Oh crap, what am I into 258 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:42.759 now? Or well, yeah, sort of. I think you vacillate. 259 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.920 You're focused on you know. The great thing about training is it allows you 260 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:49.880 to focus on what you're supposed to be doing this, no matter with the 261 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:53.960 conditions, so they could be it could be a moderate gunfight or in this 262 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:59.000 case is like the most extreme gunfight I was ever in. You're focusing on 263 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:00.880 what you have to do and that's what you've been trained to do, and 264 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.880 you know and you even have the aptitude for it. That's part of how 265 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:10.720 we select people. But in the same time, simultaneously, and I can't 266 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.000 speak for everybody, but I think it's pretty common. You're still going through 267 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:19.599 the physiological and the emotional experience. It's happening, it's real, it's existential. 268 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.440 You could die in any moment, and sometimes that pops into your head. 269 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:27.400 So there were times like everybody in my vehicle got shot basically, and 270 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.559 so you know, in my opinion, I got hit in the body, 271 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.680 eye, i got hit in the foot, and it's like, you know, 272 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.839 and people are dying around me, guys I knew, and who are 273 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.759 amazing operators. I'm like, man, that guy just got shot and just 274 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:48.200 dropped and he's an amazing delta operator. I'm just waiting for my turn. 275 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.359 And so you then vacillate between focusing on things and then you know, the 276 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.240 emotional experience starts to happen. And in my case, it was between resignation 277 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.200 like well, I'm probably gonna get a shot. I die here, and 278 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:07.039 I'm fucking pissed off and I'm going to shoot all you people that are a 279 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.400 threat to me. It's in a range of emotions and it's a that's part 280 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.960 of what the reality of those types of experiences are is You're still a human 281 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:21.319 at the end of the day, you know. So it varied, you 282 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:25.920 know, because gun an eighth and hour gunfight isn't a sustained laying down of 283 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.000 you know, cruiserve weapon fire. It has it has peaks and lulls, 284 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.839 you know, and in those lulls, you're either talking to people, or 285 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.519 you're thinking about you need to do next, or thoughts creep into your mind. 286 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.559 All these things are happening at once, and so it's it's quite a 287 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.200 life transformative experience to be in a gunfight. Thank you for sharing that. 288 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.880 And you know what's interesting as I speak to individuals who've been in gun battles, 289 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:53.599 such as yourself, for officers of the law, there's a thing called 290 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.680 time dilation, which I'm sure you're aware of. Oh yeah, I experienced 291 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:02.799 it. But the question for you is that's such a different battle because gun 292 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.480 battles tend to last minutes usually. Yeah, right, yours was a little 293 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:11.759 faster than what the population population thinks. The civilian doesn't realize that people don't 294 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.359 just want to hang out having a gunfight for the hell of it. They 295 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.720 happen pretty fast, you know, and then you're either trying to overrun the 296 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:19.079 other guy or you're trying to get away from the gunfight. You don't just 297 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.319 want to hang out and shoot at each other for the hell of it. 298 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.440 That's the thing. I guess My question to you is, I see I 299 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:30.039 understand the concept of time dilation. It's similar to flow. Mikhael chim Chick 300 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.759 my eye used to talk about flow in sports. Anytime I get in these 301 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.160 kind of stressful situations where a body has to focus, we go into those 302 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.079 flow state and time dilations seems to be similar. I really have to pay 303 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.240 attention of everything around me and slow things down to process it. But did 304 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.440 you feel that and then disappear because you're in a gun battle a lot of 305 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.359 times in Miss Long? I think it might just I think it just be 306 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:56.759 my part of the heightened response of the amazing thing that is the human body. 307 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.359 The other thing that happened to me besides time, Billy that was odd, 308 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:07.000 and it's related to that, was selective hearing, you know. I 309 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.599 mean back then, I didn't wear a headset. I like the handset because 310 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.240 a handset for me was a very simple thing. If my five pen didn't 311 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:15.279 work, I could swap out another one. I'm not trying to is it 312 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.920 this comcorde? Is it my headset? Is that concord? And I can 313 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.680 hand my handset to somebody else. So as a guy, I tended to 314 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.960 use handsets, So but I would have I threw ear pro in just regular 315 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.559 foam earplugs in for gunfight, and every time we got in a gunfight, 316 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.519 I'd immediately take him out, which was you know, why he bothered to 317 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:34.799 put him in. It didn't make any sense, but you know, it's 318 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:40.920 who knows you do things. But I would have these conversations with the fifty 319 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.240 gunner on my hummer was a guy named Mike pringbll Ranger. It's a great 320 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:49.680 guy. He was just a dead eye with the M two. And in 321 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.319 the middle of this gunfight, RPG's are going off all around us, We're 322 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.160 laying out volumes of fire. And the weird thing for me was I kept 323 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.960 talking to him and you'd think I'd be shouting or he'd be shouting, and 324 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:08.400 like it was this very calm, deliberate but easy to hear conversation amongst all 325 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:12.559 the din of the firefight. And I remember reflecting on the very next day, 326 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.160 I'm like, God, that was really weird that. You know, 327 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:19.759 normally a fifty cali's he's laying down rounds and I'm I'm shooting at people. 328 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.400 Everyone's shooting at people, and people are shooting at us and stuff blowing up, 329 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.119 and you can just have this normal conversation in normal tones of voice. 330 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:32.640 And that was that was more weird than time dilation because I've experienced that in 331 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:36.440 training before too, when we did underwaters, which they don't do anymore because 332 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.240 we killed too many people. You start to brown out. You're still conscious, 333 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.400 but you're oxygen deprived enough that your vision goes first, so you get 334 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:48.480 tunnel vision, and then eventually you brown out, which means I can't see. 335 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.039 I'm effectively blind, but I'm still consciously thinking. And that would go 336 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:56.359 into some time dilation for me, because I experienced that in the pool when 337 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.920 I was going through you know, a Key West as a combat especially forces 338 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.400 combat diver, but more so at the combat control end DOC course where we 339 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.480 definitely punished our guys a lot in the pool. So it was, you 340 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.240 know, it was just another one of those experiences. And I think a 341 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.680 lot of people have that the car accident can do that to you too. 342 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.400 That's very true. That's fascinating. Look for a dialogue component of it all. 343 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.920 That's fascinating stuff amazing the human body. As you mentioned a minute ago. 344 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.559 Again, folks, we're talking to Dan Shilling. The book is alone 345 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:29.200 at Daunce. We're going to be switching gears over there, because you've been 346 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.240 talking about being a combat controller, and you decided to write a book about 347 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:37.319 a Special Ops combat controller, and this time you switch gears from yourself to 348 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.720 somebody else. Why did you choose John Chaplin? Well, John's story came 349 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.880 to me. I mean, I didn't know John Well. He was a 350 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.160 new guy at the at the twenty four Special Tactics Squad when I was on 351 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.599 my way out the first time, and I was going to Combat Control School 352 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:55.839 to be an instructor, and I was just going to go to college, 353 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:57.799 so I was going to school at night. So you know, we all 354 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:02.240 knew in our community about John's experience and what had happened on the mountain, 355 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.880 and it was pretty clear to me. And then when I retired, i'd 356 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.839 seen the video footage which was classified for a long time, of what happened 357 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:11.319 mountain. We all did. And this is early on in the war when 358 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:15.920 Predator drone footage was really coming into its own. But and we had the 359 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.920 gunship footage as well from the AC Went thirty gunship. But I retired in 360 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.440 twenty sixteen, and I'm writing novels and I'm living on I'm living it out 361 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:26.799 to a ski resort and i ski one hundred days a year and I'm hanging 362 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.319 out with my wife because we get to now finally, and a friend of 363 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.880 mine brought it to me and said, listen, you know John's sister wants 364 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.200 to write has been trying to write this book, and you should talk about 365 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:38.319 it. So I got on the phone. It turned out to be my 366 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:41.680 co author, and we talked about it. I said, I'm not really 367 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:47.440 interested in writing this book because I'm I'm not looking for conflict. There there's 368 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.000 a lot of controversy around some of the things that happened with John on the 369 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.319 mountain, and I'm really in a peaceful place. I'm a Buddhist. Actually 370 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.039 most people don't know that, but I became a Buddhist when I worked in 371 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:02.079 Thailand for several years. And you know, I didn't want to write the 372 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.319 book, and ultimately I felt like I had to. So the rest is 373 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.400 history. I spent two and a half years working on this book seven days 374 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:11.759 a week, doing my own investigation and what happened, but it wasn't just 375 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.279 John's story. So John Chapman is the first Medal of Honor recipient for the 376 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:21.960 Air Force in half a century since Vietnam the Air Force's only medal of honor, 377 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.559 so it's a very powerful story. Obviously, at the time, John 378 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.079 didn't have the Medal of Honor. I remember the publisher asked me, what 379 00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:30.400 are you gonna do if he doesn't receive the medal, because it was sort 380 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:34.960 of in the process, and there were people in the Navy actively trying to 381 00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.079 thwart John's medal of honor, which is pretty dishonorable. But that's a small 382 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.720 subset. So John's medal was not guaranteed, and I said, doesn't matter 383 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.720 whether he gets the medal or not. In my sense as a historian, 384 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.599 I'm here to write his story, and the story is the story, whether 385 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.720 anybody recognizes him as a hero or not. But I felt that that was 386 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.759 only half the book, and this is why I decided to write it. 387 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.559 Combat Control CCT, as most people know, it is the other half of 388 00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:08.319 this story. And I felt the two married and no one really knew who 389 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:14.240 Combat Control was, and my purpose in writing this book was to share that 390 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.799 with the American public. To go listen. The deadliest individual to ever walk 391 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:23.359 a battlefield in the history of human warfare is an Air Force guy and he's 392 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:29.200 a combat controller because that one guy can kill more people on a battlefield using 393 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:33.720 his expertise than anyone in the history of warfare. And I always start with 394 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.799 this story about Calvin Markham. Calvin retired as the chief Silver Star recipient. 395 00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:41.960 He was in Afghanistan and in fact, he was one of the guys who 396 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.000 went over with five ninety five. So he's the first American to cross the 397 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:51.680 border with a Special Forces ODA in America's response to nine to eleven. And 398 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:56.240 in his first twenty six days in combat, he killed more people than any 399 00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.240 seal in the history of seals. And you know what, it was his 400 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.960 first deployment, first combat ever, and he had eleven deployments. So you 401 00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.720 know, it's like, who are these guys and how is it that they 402 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.079 can do this? And that's the purpose of Alone at Donlin. And I'm 403 00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:14.079 really I'm really pleased with the reception that the book has gotten. It you 404 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:15.759 know, made the New York Times bestseller list, which is a great thing 405 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:19.079 as an author, and it allows you as an author to get out to 406 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:22.920 more people. But it still sells every month. People are buying that book, 407 00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.440 and I'm I'm really proud of that now I'm not in I didn't put 408 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.279 myself in my own book. It's a history of combat control in a real 409 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.880 sense, but there's a lot of things in there that involved me. But 410 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.880 I felt as the now, as an author and no longer in the military, 411 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.400 it was important that I could could present this as, Hey, this 412 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:44.720 is not about me. This is about these guys, and it's about this 413 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.599 one amazing individual who was one of them, and that's John and combat Control. 414 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:56.680 What stood out for you the most about John in regards to his character 415 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:00.680 in that character, but to what he did that day, Well, what 416 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.519 he did that day is a subset of who he really was. That's how 417 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:10.400 I would first answer that question, because he was a very resilient, intellectually 418 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.839 curious, and empathetic individual, and that's very common to comic controllers. Comic 419 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:19.119 controllers tend to be the best ones, are very intellectually curious people. And 420 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:23.920 you know, he wasn't. He was a very resilient person, and he 421 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.079 persevered during this gunfight until he ultimately got shot through the heart. It expired, 422 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:34.359 and he wasn't he was He was courageous because he was a resilient person. 423 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.519 He wasn't resilient because he was courageous. I think that's the way I 424 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:42.400 felt to that out. He was this resilient individual and he just was not 425 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.640 going to give up, and he felt he had these responsibilities. I can't 426 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:51.119 say what he truly felt or thought, but I can say what he decided 427 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.240 to do. I can say what actions he took, and those are indicative 428 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.880 of what he was thinking about. And he was very clear that after this 429 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.200 left him for dead and he's alone on this mountain and he's fighting against a 430 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.920 lot of people, including hand to hand combat. His physiological damage and I 431 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:15.240 have his autopsy. I've got all of pathology sixteen gunshot, shrapnel and laceration 432 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.839 womens man. Nine of those were gunshot womens and he was still functioning. 433 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:23.839 And that's an amazing testament to an individual who says I'm not going to give 434 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:29.920 up, but he's on his own. Then comes this rescue helicopter to come 435 00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.759 and pick up the seals. No one knows John's on top of the mountain 436 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.799 and they're coming in to retrieve the surviving seals because they left another dead guy 437 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:40.279 behind too. There's a couple of guys left on the mountain there's John and 438 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:44.839 a guy named Neil Roberts. But John Chapman makes this decision to say, 439 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:47.599 I'm not gonna let this helicopter get shot down, which would have been the 440 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.759 third helicopter shot down on this mountain, and he climbs out of this bunker 441 00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.319 and just takes the fight to the enemy while he's in the process of dying 442 00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.839 because he was bleeding out, man, and he was in severe shock, 443 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:04.319 blood loss, and he did that. Man, What an amazing selfless thing 444 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:08.000 to do. It's a if you watch the video. I've got a YouTube 445 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:15.119 channel video which covers John Chapman. You can go to dan Selink Books you'll 446 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.039 find it, or just google the First Medal of Honor on YouTube and it'll 447 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:23.079 populate. Twenty million people have seen this video. It's John's footage of him 448 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:30.359 actually doing this, and it's it's an emotionally, very impactful video. And 449 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:36.279 I'm really pleased that I got that. I had the opportunity to be the 450 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:37.799 person to share that with the world the way that I did, both in 451 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:41.920 the book and the video. And then hopefully next year we'll start filming one 452 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.880 hundred and thirty million dollars film about John's life and his events on the mount. 453 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:49.640 That's amazing. Again, folks, the book is called Alone at Dawn? 454 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:56.279 Did John. I know a lot of Special Operations and other soldiers as 455 00:30:56.279 --> 00:31:00.039 well, that when they do here bravery or brave deeds such as that, 456 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:04.480 when the sacrificed their life, they always think it's as a team effort. 457 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:08.079 They don't want to receive it on honor because they think it's not about me, 458 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:12.319 it's about the team. Yeah, John, universally, Yeah, John 459 00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:15.720 felt that way. I'm sure he did. In fact, this is when 460 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:22.000 I said to Laurie, my co author, which was John's sister, because 461 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:25.519 she really wanted to write a biography about her brother. And I said, 462 00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:30.000 let me tell you something, your brother would not want a book about himself. 463 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.440 He'd want a book about his community. So that's what the book we're 464 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.440 going to write. And that's the book that I ended up writing, was, 465 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:40.720 you know, all John's community, the guys who knew him, who 466 00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:44.720 they were, and John's story at the same time. And I can't speak 467 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:49.839 for John, but I am sure he would be uncomfortable with the recognition that 468 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.759 he has has now garnered his wife, who is the most wonderful person Baalery. 469 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.319 I love her to death. We're really good friends, and she's she's 470 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.839 just a remarkable lady. She found love again, got remarried, and then 471 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.119 lost a second husband, so she's been widowed twice. And she's just one 472 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.519 of these people who can deal with life. I mean, she talks about 473 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.480 John. You can see the impact all these years later. He's been gone 474 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.000 for twenty years now, and he had He was such a genuine and as 475 00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:25.240 I said, empathetic person. He had this great capacity for empathy, like 476 00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:30.480 to defend the defenseless, you know, if you were getting picked on in 477 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.839 high school. Even though he was a jock and he was a state champion 478 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:42.200 competitive diver, he just wouldn't abide by people picking on other people. And 479 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.400 it's a testament to who he was. And I'm really glad I got to 480 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:50.000 be as biographer. I consider it one of the great honors of my entire 481 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:54.119 professional careers. I got to be the person who chronicled John and these guys 482 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:58.720 that no one ever heard of. Let me give you one quick stat this 483 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:04.759 is really interesting about Comick. So the most decorated wing in the United States 484 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:09.079 Air Force has zero pilots in it. It's the twenty four Special Operations Wing. 485 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:14.319 It's the most highly decorated wing in the Air Force, and combat controllers, 486 00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:19.599 which comprise point one percent of the US Air Force, point one percent. 487 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.920 In America's longest running war ever, we're over fifty percent of its Silver 488 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:30.359 Stars, seventy plus percent of its Air Force Crosses, and its only medal 489 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:35.759 of honor, and that came from point one percent of the US Air Force. 490 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:40.000 And that is it's amazing. Really, yeah, that is amazing. 491 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:46.480 And now you were a combat controller, I guess referred as were you only 492 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:51.079 a combat controller in Shoo? Did you continue the job at other places as 493 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:52.880 well? No, I was in the first Go War over there with doing 494 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:59.119 the scud Hutt thing, and I've been down to Central America in the eighties. 495 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.079 I was in, you know, working in Southeast Asia doing stuff with 496 00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:07.640 the Ties, and you do there was border problems with drugs and Burma and 497 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.440 Mayan mar you know, and you get in the Golden Triangle. So I've 498 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:14.000 been around there and then and then we went to Haiti and did some other 499 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.360 things that were still remain classified. And then I actually got out of the 500 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:21.599 military completely and I started own business. I went to graduate school, and 501 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.280 I ended up in the Army SF as a guard guy in the nineteenth Group, 502 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:30.280 and that's where I got my commission, and I ran the HALO program 503 00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:34.039 for the nineteenth I was kind of their subject matter expert for HALO because if 504 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:37.119 you know anything else about me, I like parachutes man, and so I 505 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.239 did that, and then I ended up going back into the Air Force and 506 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.119 then started I became sort of a serial entrepreneur. I created a couple of 507 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:52.159 squadrons, one from scratch and became the first commander there, and then I 508 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.760 became the commander of another, the first commander of another unit. So I 509 00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:00.880 found my way back into Air Force combat control and special tactics, and that's 510 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:04.239 where I spent the rest of my career. And so it was a good 511 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.880 it's a good career as a combat controller. Independent on Mogabi shoe for now, 512 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:10.360 because I know that that seems to be one of the anomalies in your 513 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:17.800 life for most people. What other areas did you find either interesting challenging as 514 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:22.000 a combat controller. So here's here's something that people may not realize a lot 515 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:28.039 of your listeners will find this fascinating combat control training pipeline is the longest, 516 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:35.079 most expensive, most intellectually demanding, and as physically demanding pipeline in the world. 517 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.000 It is harder to become a combat controller it is to become say a 518 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:42.400 Steel or Green Beret. It's not I'm not trying to like those guys aren't 519 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:44.960 hard. It's not hard to do those things, like very few people can 520 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.719 do those things. But ours is longer, harder, and in more intellectually 521 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.760 demanding, because what we ask of these guys when you go out in a 522 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:58.599 battlefield as a combat controller. Back to Calvin Marketm. There's a gunfight raging 523 00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.039 hand to hand combat at the to the tower in Kandahar, and he's calling 524 00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:06.960 in air strikes and if he screws and he's talking about it with his Special 525 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.599 Forces ODA team leaders, like, if I screw up this strike, we're 526 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:13.360 all dead. The guy's like, if you don't make the strike, we're 527 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:16.400 all dying in any way. And Calvin is calling in air strikes without a 528 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:23.760 GPS, you know, fidelity using Soviet era maps. This is this is 529 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:30.760 the Fall of two thousand and one. Man like, this is have responsibility 530 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:37.239 one hundred responsibility for whether everybody on the battlefield around you lives or dies everyone, 531 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:42.000 both the enemy and the friend friendly forces. That's a lot of responsibility 532 00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:45.280 and it's a lot of complexity he has to understand. He has to know 533 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.039 all the call signs, the frequencies involved, the airspace involved, plus what's 534 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:52.920 happening on the battlefield, plus what the effects are of that munition off of 535 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:58.239 that particular aircraft, which may be French or British or American. It is 536 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.639 an immense amount of information that you have to do. And one of the 537 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:08.800 things that separates a combat controller from everybody else on the battlefield isn't isn't battlefield 538 00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:14.519 prowess a gunfight, because a gunfight, for most people is a two dimensional 539 00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.199 experience. I think left and right, and I think near and far. 540 00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.519 And if you and I are in a gunfight, Carlos, and I'm gonna 541 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.800 shoot you, I'm thinking in two dimensions, and I'm going to kinetically reach 542 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.559 from my gun to you by a bullet, And that's how I think and 543 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:34.360 experience it. Combat controllers do not experience battlefields that way. They experience them 544 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.639 not in two dimensions, but in four because they're also thinking high and low, 545 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:43.119 the airspace and everything that's happening around it to include what's happening in that 546 00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:46.679 two dimensional battlespace on the surface of the planet is in his mind. And 547 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:52.119 time is a very important fourth component because in a gunfight, if you're a 548 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:54.199 Green Beret and I'm a kind of controller and the gunfight's taking place, as 549 00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:59.119 we've already discussed, it takes place as long as it takes. Could be 550 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.599 eight seconds, be eight minutes, could be eighteen hours if you're in Mogadishi, 551 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:05.360 right, But it just takes as long as it takes. To that 552 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:08.199 combat controller, it's a critical thing he has to think about all the time. 553 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.800 When is my airplane going to get here? How many planes do I 554 00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:15.079 have? What's their playtime? How long can they stay? You know? 555 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:20.440 When do I have to be able to replace these airplanes? When do I 556 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.800 have to replace what's happening on the battlefield with some more information. It's this 557 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:29.960 four dimensional experience, and the course of writing alone at Don is when I 558 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.920 had this epiphany when I realized, holy shit, I don't even think like 559 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.000 the other guys I've been in gunfights with, whether it's Delta Force or Rangers 560 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.599 people I've been in gunfights with. I'm like, my experience is somewhat different 561 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:45.800 than theirs, and that's part of what these guys do, and that's really 562 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.920 remarkable. But the other answer to your question about what distinguishes a combat controller 563 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:59.199 from other special operations forces is this humanitarian component. When a country like Haiti 564 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:05.159 collapses in twenty ten or in twenty twenty one, you don't call for seals, 565 00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.880 that's not who we need. But when the global community decides to make 566 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:14.519 an international response to relieve the suffering in a country like eighty in twenty ten, 567 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.360 the first guys that arrived there on as the first of the first responders, 568 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.719 were combat controllers. So a guy named Tony Travis was the team leader 569 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:29.880 for the world's response to the Haitian collapse in twenty ten. He arrived there 570 00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:34.480 with a handful of other combat controllers, ONEATV and a folding card table, 571 00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:40.679 and in twenty eight minutes he established the re established the international airport at porta 572 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:47.239 Prince, and started bringing in aircraft and relief supplies. And what's amazing is 573 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:53.679 he exceeded the maximum capacity of that airfield how many planes could actually be on 574 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:59.639 it, helicopters and planes, by fourteen hundred percent, not one hundred and 575 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:05.719 forty fourteen hundred percent. Wow. He ran this operation for two weeks, 576 00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:08.880 never had an incident, planes from all over the world, different languages, 577 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:14.639 all this other stuff. And you know, man, that's what's great. 578 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.920 We kill the bad guys more effectively than anyone else, and we rescue the 579 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:21.800 good guys, and it's a very satisfying thing. So, for instance, 580 00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:24.679 Hurricane Katrina, redot and Ike here in the United States, so much of 581 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:29.639 those rescue efforts, not the relief, but the rescuing of people were done 582 00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:34.960 by combat controllers. What could be better than helping Americans in crisis, man, 583 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.159 Most guys in special lifts don't get to do that. You just go 584 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.760 down range and do stuff for other people. So combat controllers have done that 585 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:46.719 all around the world. Fukajima twenty eleven, Bonda Ace the Indonesian tsunami on 586 00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.280 Boxing Day two thousand and four. My comic controllers are leading the way. 587 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:57.079 I mean. For Japan during their nuclear accident, US Air Force combat controllers 588 00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:01.280 reopened the airport for the country of Japan to help them with their crisis. 589 00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:06.960 And so for Tony's efforts. In twenty ten, he was the first enlisted 590 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.599 member of the US military to ever be recognized by Time magazine as one of 591 00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.480 its hundred most Influential People of the Year. This is why I wanted to 592 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:19.880 write this book. Americans need to know about these guys. The first guy 593 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.639 to jump onto a south pole was a combat controller and he did that because 594 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.320 they needed to get equipment in and they kept screwing it all up and they 595 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.760 were destroying equipment, and they're like, hey, we need to put somebody 596 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:37.079 in there. Can't land an airplane anymore because it's winter, and we're going 597 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:38.639 to send this guy down there who went by himself. He can tell us 598 00:41:38.679 --> 00:41:43.079 it's the sixties because they just did this by himself. And the guy named 599 00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.280 Patton, Sergeant Patten jumped under the south pole, not to do some I'm 600 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:49.920 the first guy to jump in the south pole, but it's like, hey, 601 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.199 you have to go down there and do this thing. And at the 602 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:57.039 time, it's like, I wonder if this parachute's going to open and function 603 00:41:57.079 --> 00:41:59.960 in these conditions, because if it's not, I'm going to hit the south 604 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:04.599 pull at one hundred and twenty miles from now. Oh. It's just these 605 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.679 are some really amazing people with stories and if you know, if you're listening 606 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.400 to this, you should pick up the book or listen to a load at 607 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:15.280 Don because it's going to change your perspective on what special ops can be. 608 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:20.639 Not because Steals and green Berets and Rangers don't do amazing things and are loaded 609 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:25.000 with all these heroes. It's that these guys are so unique, even within 610 00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:30.760 that community of unique individuals. That's fatulous stuff. Again, folks, book 611 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:34.679 is Alone and Don by Dan showing SDHI double l I n G. You 612 00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:38.400 can get it on Amazon. It's available also on audiobook and Kindle, hardcover 613 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:43.000 and paperback. Damn, we got a few minutes to go. A couple 614 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.840 more questions to ask you, and I want to get to your program as 615 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:50.639 well and awareness and that's coming up hopefully in the future. But I guess 616 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.280 a couple of questions that popped up in my head. I'm trying to keep 617 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.840 this as fluid as possible, but I'm having a hard time trying to keep 618 00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:00.920 it. But that may not happen. Curiosity enthralls me in this question I've 619 00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:05.960 asked several times before. The other individuals. They kind of not similar trajectories 620 00:43:05.960 --> 00:43:07.679 as jurors in your life because you have a lot of different areas that you 621 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:13.280 went, but when you did the intel world as well, and you coordinated 622 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:21.960 with those three letter agencies, being a combat controller going into war Mogadishu in 623 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.559 battle and then hitting the intel world, was it different for you? Did 624 00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:29.679 you say, Wow, Okay, now I see what these guys are looking 625 00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:32.760 at, because it's different what I'm looking at, or vice versa, anything 626 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:37.320 kind of any epiphany there, because we know sometimes they butt heads, right, 627 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:38.480 they haven't been here where the boots on the ground, and then the 628 00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:40.880 other way around. You know, they don't know what we know. You 629 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.440 got this kind of rivalry sometimes that happens. But did you see anything that 630 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.400 it opened your eyes against a different way? It opened my eyes a lot 631 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:52.800 because you start to see you realize that man, I worked for Jaysock, 632 00:43:52.880 --> 00:44:00.639 which is the world's blackest and most specialized and capable special operations community, and 633 00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:02.320 you tend to think like, yeah, this is the way the world looks, 634 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.039 this is the way the world works. And you go over and stay 635 00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:10.159 work with the NSA or the CIA, which are two different entities. And 636 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:14.360 let's say throw the FBI into this mix, because now I'm working with FBI 637 00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:20.199 counter terrorism and you see that other people have different views of the world, 638 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:23.159 even the world that you're staring at, and it's a common goal we all 639 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:30.559 have to say, combat terrorism and counter terrorism. But what they can and 640 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:35.760 can't do, what they think they should and shouldn't do, are very different 641 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.599 things in yours. You know, the responsibility of the CIA is to inform 642 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:45.079 the government and the President of the United States about the state of the world. 643 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:47.960 That's their job. You know, they brief the president every day. 644 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.719 It doesn't matter who the president is. This is their job. Politics come 645 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:58.559 and go, administrations come and go. The CIA remains and its responsibility stays 646 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:00.559 the same. And this say, this is the same things. So my 647 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.360 wife was an NSA cyber warfare operative. She's way smarter than I am, 648 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:07.760 which is a I highly recommend marrying that way, by the way, But 649 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.960 you know, her view of the world. We talk about stuff at home 650 00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.400 and our little family skiff, you know, the back porch and I'm having 651 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:19.239 a cigar and we're talking about things. This is very different than mine because 652 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:25.000 her responsibility in NSA is is to gather intelligence that helps shape the CIA or 653 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:30.960 the or my own Jaysack community. Because NSA is a military organization, and 654 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:36.159 then there's the FBI's responsibility when it comes to counter terrorism. Was what does 655 00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:39.920 it touch here? US citizens or in the United States. Those people all 656 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:46.000 have very different views of the world and or how we go about these things. 657 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.320 And it allowed and it forces you, or in my case, it 658 00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.760 affords you the opportunity because I found it very fascinating to look through somebody else's 659 00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:58.039 eyes. And that's what storytellers do. And I think of myself now as 660 00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:02.440 a storyteller because I write books, make movies either about my own books or 661 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:07.599 other things I find interesting. And to look through other people's eyes is a 662 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:14.320 very valuable thing to do because it allows you to become more tolerant and accepting 663 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:20.800 about the world around you. And I think those are often overlooked aspects of 664 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:28.039 life and this current hyper polarized world that we live in. That's another story. 665 00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.320 And I don't talk politics, man, I don't do politics, but 666 00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:35.119 but you know, those are valuable things to look. To look through somebody 667 00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:38.000 else's eyes, even your enemy's eyes, is a really important thing to do. 668 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:42.320 Pete Blaber, who you mentioned earlier, who was Delta Force, you 669 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:44.880 know, leader, and he's a friend of mine. I have a lot 670 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.920 of respect for Pete. Pete was one of Pete's great attributes was he would 671 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:52.639 look through the lens of the other side pretty well. And even in special 672 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:58.639 ops, I think a lot of officers and leaders and even senior operators don't 673 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.440 do that. The enemy the enemy, and I just got to go crush 674 00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:05.920 them, man. You can crush them better if you understand how they see 675 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:09.360 the world and how they see you. Yeah, he's extremely insightful, extremely 676 00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:14.239 insightful man. When we did the interview again, folks, Dan Shilling three 677 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:16.199 books, I highly recommend we're gonna start getting ready tottack one of them, 678 00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.920 but alone and Dawn is when we're talking about a lot today. We also 679 00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:23.480 talked a little bit about another book, Bottle Battle of Mogadishu, the first 680 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:27.159 hand accounts from the men of Task Force Ranger. And we're going to start 681 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.039 heading towards the direction of the power of awareness. But I'm going to set 682 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:34.239 it up and bring back my little chain here of questions. We had a 683 00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.639 little king for a second, but I think I'll bring it back. Tom 684 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:42.840 Beck controller very important, very powerful individual. That makes me think you're a 685 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.199 target now? Is that true? Are other enemies looking at going that's the 686 00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:51.599 first we can knock that guy out, we really improve our chances in winning 687 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.400 this battle. Or am I far off on that? It depends on the 688 00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:57.000 sophistication of the enemy. Goes back to what we're just talking about. Do 689 00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:00.039 they really know who's coming after them? If they really understood you have special 690 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:04.280 operations and how it integrates, then yeah, they might know who that guy 691 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:07.559 is and the value of knocking that guy out. But in a general sense, 692 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:09.440 I don't think that's what happens when you've on a battlefield. I think 693 00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:14.679 a lot of a lot of enemy combatants we have fought, you know, 694 00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:20.360 to our advantage, we're not sophisticated people in their understanding of your capability and 695 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:24.039 your force composition. Now that's different in Ukraine and some other places that we're 696 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.920 going to be going because that the war we had in the past twenty years 697 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.679 is over. That was a special ops war. The next wars are not 698 00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:36.519 going to be that way. So you know, I don't know that you 699 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:39.480 I don't know. I don't know how to answer that to the extent of 700 00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:45.079 how often combat controllers might be targeted by the enemy, But but you know, 701 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:47.920 it was that it was. It was in the course of being a 702 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:52.960 combat controller and special Tactics officer where I worked around the world and I, 703 00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:55.320 you know, it's not just special ops that you think of things like I'm 704 00:48:55.360 --> 00:49:00.960 working in Bangladesh. I spent several years working in out of Banglade in Thailand 705 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:07.880 and Vietnam some too, and you're doing port security stuff, and I got 706 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:13.960 involved in things like community policing and DACA Bangladesh. That's not you wouldn't naturally 707 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:15.880 go, oh, yeah, You're going to go to Bangladesh and start working 708 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:22.559 with universities and police institutions as a special ops guy, and then engage with 709 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.000 the ambassador, you know, and pitch him on, hey, I think 710 00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:29.920 I've got this idea ambassador. That's very different stuff. And what I learned 711 00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:31.880 in the course of all this is, man, you start traveling the world, 712 00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:37.239 and it's not about being a special ops man or woman. It's about 713 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.400 what is it? How do you move about that world? How do you 714 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:45.079 absorb that world? And from a personal safety standpoint, which is what I 715 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:49.280 became very passionate and I'm very passionate about now, is how do you not 716 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:52.000 be a victim of a crime? And what I really landed on when I 717 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:58.000 wrote The Power of Awareness. The book is it's not a self defense book. 718 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:01.840 I'm not talking about kropmagog, concealed carry, or best tactics for employing 719 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:07.000 a firearm in a threatening situation. Those are all tools to fix a problem. 720 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:09.760 My toilet breaks, I need a wrench to fix it. If I'm 721 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:13.079 being confronted with a bad guy and I got to pull out my gun, 722 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.559 that gun is a tool to fix the problem, which is the bad guy. 723 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:21.880 I can't get away from my approach as a Buddhist philosophically and as a 724 00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:25.079 personal safety expert or a guy with a lot of experiences, don't give in 725 00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:30.639 that situation. And that really comes back to being situationally aware. What does 726 00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:37.000 that mean to a civilian? That's a very different term than to professionals who 727 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.400 have spent years being trained to be situationally aware. So how can I help 728 00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:45.000 the typical citizen of the world be situationally aware? And the other thing for 729 00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:50.559 me that was foundational to personal safety was how to get people to reconnect and 730 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:54.920 listen to their intuition. Because everyone has intuition. Where people get in trouble 731 00:50:55.000 --> 00:51:00.679 is they override or ignore their intuition. I know not to let serial killer 732 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:06.360 Ted Bundy into my apartment complex. Don't do that. But oh I don't 733 00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:07.880 want to be silly. I don't want to be rude. Okay, come 734 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:13.679 on, in mister X. People override their intuition, and that's the foundation 735 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:15.639 of my book. And what I did with the book was take those two 736 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:21.239 foundations, essay and intuition, and then help people understand how to determine if 737 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:22.559 they have a problem, how to make a plan, and when they have 738 00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.960 a plan, how to take action, not to fight the bad guy, 739 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.760 but to avoid the bad guy altogether, or to evade the bad guy, 740 00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:36.400 or to escape before you need that Kravmagod tool. And so for me, 741 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.519 I spent a lot of time on that book thinking about how to convey that 742 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:45.840 information both the professionals and the amateur. And at the end of the day, 743 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:47.800 as we were talking about, was before we started the podcast, I 744 00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:52.880 spent all summer filming and converting my book into an online course. Because most 745 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.239 people don't read books, damn it. I like books because I'm a geek. 746 00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.760 My backdrop, I got books everywhere in my office. But you know, 747 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:05.480 everybody is and dies on a phone and so if I wanted to reach 748 00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:10.920 many, many people and help young college freshmen, females to seventy year old 749 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:16.079 male executives be safe, I realized I had to convert my book into it 750 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:21.199 an app, and so I converted my book into screenplay. I've written several 751 00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:24.159 screenplays and I filmed it this summer, and it's got exercises and there's review 752 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:29.760 questions, and I think it's a really easy way for people to come to 753 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:34.599 a better understanding on how to be safe as they go from across the street 754 00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:38.320 across the world. And I've really enjoyed that. It's a really cool way 755 00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:44.039 to spend your days helping people not be victims of crime. It's fascinating because 756 00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:46.400 I know I've been getting back months ago into the world of martial arts in 757 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:51.559 jiu jitsu and wa tie and whatnot, and I've interviewed a lot of black 758 00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:55.239 belts now and MMA fighters, and one of the resonating things I've been hearing 759 00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:59.360 goes along with what you just said, and what they keep telling me is 760 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:02.559 I'm not training to learn how to fight, I'm training how to keep out 761 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:06.800 of fights. And it was a fascinating way to look at it. He 762 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:09.559 goes. Everybody tells me, the black belts, the professors, they keep 763 00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:12.960 telling me. One of the things I've learned over the years when I got 764 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:15.920 my black belt was how to avoid fights. It's not about how to defend 765 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:20.079 yourself, even though you have the skill set if you needed to. But 766 00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:22.679 it's really we don't get into it. We know we can take the person 767 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:25.440 out. We're just going to move away. It's not worth it. And 768 00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:30.199 it was a fascinating look at martial arts because a lot of people think have 769 00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:32.960 the mentality of oh they're learning how to fight and hurt people. In reality, 770 00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.159 n now they know they don't have to and they get away. That's 771 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:40.599 because it gives them confidence. But I still think a lot of what those 772 00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:45.000 people are talking about isn't what I'm talking about. They're talking about de escalation. 773 00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:47.480 Oh try and get away from the fight, do you know, because 774 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:54.400 it's still in the com it's still within the relative sphere of special of martial 775 00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:59.679 arts, because that's what they's that's their discipline, that's what they spend all 776 00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:01.679 their time. I'm on is the martial art. Yes they want to de 777 00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:07.760 escalate, Yes they want to extract themselves from the situation. But in the 778 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:13.039 course of that they're not talking of they don't really delve into situational awareness and 779 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:17.000 intuition. And for me, it's six rules in my book. The third 780 00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:21.960 rule is do I have a problem? It's a question, and you have 781 00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:24.280 to ask yourself do I have a problem. And there's only one or two 782 00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:28.800 answers. It's either yes or it's no. There's no in between. It's 783 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:32.159 binary either or and or. If you don't know, the means yes, 784 00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:36.119 I have a problem. So you know, that's what you have to start 785 00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:39.920 teaching people, is that person could be a problem. If I think they're 786 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:44.199 a problem, I have to make a plan, and the plan should always 787 00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:47.760 be first and foremost, how do I get away from the problem. I 788 00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:52.599 always tell people my favorite, my favorite special operations plan of all time run 789 00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:58.840 Away, run Away, because you know Mighty Python and the Holy Grail Man, 790 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:02.360 they nailed it that. It's a brilliant film on personal safety, run 791 00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:08.280 Away Man, because distance equals safety. And that's where it's thematically consistent with 792 00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:10.960 I think you're talking about from these martial arts folks, But I'm not a 793 00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:15.480 martial arts guy and I don't carry a weapon. You're talking one step before 794 00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:19.079 that, then before they get into that de escalation, don't even get to 795 00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:23.599 that point either. That's right for me. It's about if you're situationally aware 796 00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:29.639 and you're in tune with and heeding your intuition, you're going to see that 797 00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:31.920 problem coming because you're not walking down the street looking at your phone. You 798 00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:36.559 know, you're not run going down the street with earbuds in and looking at 799 00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:44.400 your phone. Man, if you're if you're eliminating your two greatest distant senses, 800 00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:49.159 vision and hearing. If you're eliminating those, you're making yourself a target. 801 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:53.519 And it doesn't matter who you are, you're more likely to be targeted 802 00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:59.400 because criminals are really adept at picking out good targets. You know why. 803 00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.239 It's their interest to pick the easy target. So if you're not paying attention, 804 00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:05.280 my ability to run up and grab the phone out of your hand, 805 00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:07.320 or steal your purse, or whack you on the back of the head and 806 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:12.840 drag you away so I have possession of your body is much easier. And 807 00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:17.440 so for me, my whole book's purpose is it's really different from the martial 808 00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.159 arts or the firearms safety communities. We're all related we're all have a common 809 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:25.639 goal. I'm not here to compete with those people. I'm here to provide 810 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:30.599 information to people long before they are doing martial arts. I do advocate for 811 00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:32.440 martial arts, and if you want to carry a gun, I advocate for 812 00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:37.719 competent shooting instruction. You know, go to gunside academy or a lot there's 813 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.760 a lot of great I'm not here to champion them, but you know, 814 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:45.119 anywhere you go there's a lot of great that Rob Latham. There's a lot 815 00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:47.960 of people out there who teach shooting. And I don't even know who's the 816 00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:52.199 cool kid in town for martial arts or shooting now, but go get that 817 00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:55.599 training. But my point is to walk the world. You don't actually have 818 00:56:55.719 --> 00:56:59.960 to have that training. You don't have to carry a gun, you don't 819 00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:02.199 have to carry a martial art. Those are good things to know, but 820 00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:07.559 they're hard. They take a long time and a lot of discipline. What 821 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:12.079 I'm teaching doesn't take a lot of time. What it takes is learn to 822 00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:15.119 think a little bit differently, learn to know when not to look at your 823 00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:19.440 phone. Everyone's gonna look at their phone. Everyone's going to do text and 824 00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:22.960 drive shit. I do it who does not text while they drive. Every 825 00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:28.480 American texts and drives at the same time. I'm just here to say, 826 00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:30.599 don't do that. When you walk out of an international airport and you're waiting 827 00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:35.400 to catch the Metro in London or the two, you know, like, 828 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:37.840 that's not the time to look at your phone, man, It's your time 829 00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:42.320 to look around. And so that's the purpose of the book, and I 830 00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:46.880 spend all summer filming it, and I'm really excited about this. I really 831 00:57:46.880 --> 00:57:51.920 want people to find this. If you go to Dan Sling books dot com, 832 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:55.519 it's front and foremost because it's my current book, and I hope people 833 00:57:55.559 --> 00:58:00.599 go there buy my book or not. Honestly, it's not really about that. 834 00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:05.119 It's that you can look at these principles and start thinking about safety differently. 835 00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:07.960 And my whole goal in life is to help people not be victims of 836 00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:13.119 crime. It's a way of making up for having killed people, which is 837 00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:16.320 something that's philosophically has always bothered me. Some guys are been bothered by that. 838 00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:21.039 The only regret in my career is that I had to kill people. 839 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:24.920 Everybody beats to a different dron, no doubt about that again, folks, 840 00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:29.639 Dan Shilling SCCHI, Double l I n G. The Power of Awareness and 841 00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:31.800 other Secrets from the world's foremost Spies, detectives and Special Operators, and How 842 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:35.360 to Stay Safe and Save Your Lives. The book we just talked about. 843 00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:37.920 The other two books, I highly recommend The Battle of Mugadishu, first hand 844 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:43.079 Accounts from the men of Task Force Ranger, and Alone at Dawn, which 845 00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:45.519 we also covered today. We covered three books. Kind of hard to do, 846 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:47.320 but we did it. Alone at Dawn it's the Medal of Honor recipient 847 00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:52.800 John Chapman's story, The Untold Story of the World's Deadly a Special Operations for 848 00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:54.880 us, Dan. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be 849 00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:59.599 with us today. Carlos. It's always a pleasure, man. I appreciate 850 00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:01.599 what you're doing, and I appreciate the message you're trying to get out. 851 00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:07.920 And I think what you do in this podcast and Special Ops is really good 852 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.639 for Americans. So I hope it's circulating and it's been a pleasure. Thanks 853 00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:14.000 again, that means a lot. I appreciate it. I think, like 854 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:16.960 you said earlier, these stories have to be told and people need to know 855 00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:22.840 about them. I think Rambo did it did something but not what he wanted 856 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:24.880 it to do. I still highlight the last ten minutes of that movie because 857 00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:30.119 I thought that was probably the best mix of the movie, when he felt 858 00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:32.719 and broke down and people got to see that these guys are humans as well. 859 00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.480 Yeah, folks, go to Dan Shilling dot com. You can learn 860 00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:39.000 more about his books there as well. Thank you everybody for listening. You 861 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:43.119 know what to do, Share, subscribe, hit that like button, Go 862 00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:44.159 get power awareness