Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to the plan of the Apes
Retrospective. There you go. I am the clown Prince of nose t House
Still. I'm joined by I'm the Governor Cooklaan Patsa. That's a good governor
voice. I am the loggiver Tatorfield. Yes, we are here for the
fifth episode of the Planet Apes Retrospective, marching up to what the hell's the
new one of the Apes Kingdom of the Planet Apes. Of course, how
could you forget? And this is the last of the original series. As
we said before, we're not doing the TV show. I've heard that the
TV show comes out for this, so I think I'm going to inquire and
watch it, but we are not doing that. After this will be going
into Tim Burns Plant Apes, which I cannot wait for that that is gonna
be a fucking fiery one because that's law choices made in that movie from top
to bottom good bad, mostly bad. But I can't wait talk about it,
So look out for that. And that's why quickly the links. Everything
you need to know is down below. If you could, you could have
got this series starting all the way back last year. Actually, like that's
where the best thing is with our retros, we usually record them way in
advance, whether it's this Mad Max, especially next year, gonna be doing
Fantastic four, gonna be doing the Superman movies, like we're gonna there's gonna
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So we thank you very much. So, mister Fields, I'm gonna
start with you battle. Actually I'm not gonna start with you, mister Patser.
You know, honestly, last movie we had a very controversial ending where
the Apes come back, they take over, they're going to kill everybody,
until the studio said, now, let's not kill everybody. We gotta make
a sequel. So they's be like, ah, maybe we can find a
way and here we are. This is them finding a way to work with
apes and humans in Unison. Did you think that they achieved that? And
did they achieve making a good movie? Here? For the for the last
of this, uh this continuity time travel and stuff off, So you could
still you know, you could still say the new anti Circus movies happened before
this. There is a way to do that. But for the OG sixties
and seventies, this is the last one. It definitely feels like we're closing
a chapter at least. Or yeah, like just the fact that this is
like the last one in the seventies, Like this is the fifth movie that
we've done now, and what is that? Like a five year range like
that? That's pretty crazy. For sixty eight, was that the first one?
Oh are you saying they came out? Yeah, sixty eight. Didn't
this come out in seventy seven or something or seventy three? I'm looking to
really, Yeah, that blows my mind because I thought, like the last
one is seventy two, Battle for the Plan the Apes seventy three. Yeah,
so they really just they just pumped them out like a year after year.
That's crazy to me. And you said plant the eas was sixty eight.
I thought it was sixty eight. Oh okay, it might have been
sixty six. No, it's sixty eight. So yeah, that's they really
did pump those out by movies five years. That's that's unheard of that they
saw this and the MC was like, we gotta do that plan the apes.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean it's been it's been a fun ride
going through these again. This one. This one, like the last one,
there was actually quite a lot of scenes that I did remember. I
think the moving pieces of the plot I didn't really remember, just because I
probably didn't know what was going on as a wee young lad. But just
certain imagery. I feel like anytime like gorillas are on screen, I'm like,
I just remember them so vividly, Like their outfits are very iconic,
just maybe the way that I don't love the way they look in their masks.
I think they maybe look the worst out of all the the monkey men.
So whatever it might be, I I just that imagery really sticks sticks
to me. And there's certain scenes in here that I do remember, maybe
particularly about guns and gorillas want for guns, and it just was very funny.
I think to watch this time around, but overall, like, I
actually like this one more than I was expecting to. I think because of
how the last movie ended. I it just it was all over the place,
and knowing like the behind the scenes things, how they had a direction,
and then the studio of course thought it was too too crazy, so
they nerfed it a bit. Never like hearing that I always want to just
just stick to no matter how crazy the plot might be. Just that maybe
that original idea of at least at least like not so much in the sense
of like reworking a script to make it work better before it's being made,
but like the fact that this was made and they and they did film that
ending. I'm going off about the last movie now, so I gotta talk
about Battle for the Punt of the Years. I think just the dynamic of
having apes, like being the majority rulers, but then you also have these
these humans. It's almost like a flipping maybe of the last movie, just
not as like tyrannical. It's funny, how what was it Escape was kind
of that for the first movie. It was like that dynamic. So whenever
we get like an opportunity to kind of flip flip the script in a sense
and just look at it that way. I think it is fun. So
that already had like some bonus marks, and I think the overall like the
overall threat maybe was a little bit laxa daisical in my mind. Didn't love
the whole like mutant threat, Like, I guess it's a way to have
like a force of humans. I just think the whole writing around what their
motivation was and just how there are these mutants figured people barely malformed. It
is just such a terrible thing. Back then it scared the hell Caesar's child
in this. Yeah, so like for me that was pretty weak. But
just the actual dynamic of having our I guess, all our protagonists all interacting
together and kind of what pits them on the same side, it's it's a
little bit different than what the other movies were. So I did like it
in that sense. But yeah, so I think there was a long witted
way of saying that. I just I was pleasantly surprised. I liked it
more than I was expecting. Uh still didn't blow me away, And I
think there was definitely better ways to tell the same story. And who knows,
maybe like the Circus remakes kind of have that. Who knows. I've
only seen the one, all right, you've only seen one. Yeah,
I don't think we recover that territory. Maybe in the if we get some
sequels to Kingdom and stuff, we can get back to there. But yeah,
first so I do remember this. As we said before, I've seen
these all, watch the many times, I feel like this is the one
out of all the OG five I've seen the least. I actually feel like
this is one I've probably seen the least in general, to be honest,
because I don't think it's a bad movie. I just don't. I think
it's a case where because they're making these movies and their lower budget, this
is definitely one where I feel like you could have gone longer. We've said
that before, where it's like, oh this is this works at this length
of this one. It's only an hour twenty six and the first seven and
a half minutes are purely a recap of the first film, So it's really
just like so it's pretty much just like an hour twenty you know, under
an hour ten credit. So really it's about hour fifteen, hour ten,
you know. So it's not a long movie. It's a lot put together
it is something that that's why this inspired me, because I want to watch
the TV show, and I don't know what the TV show is about.
I'm not sure if it's similar to this, but as like almost like how
I felt with Conquest, Like there's lots of things you could dive into being
longer here. So I think there's just a lot going on with Caesar wanting
to touch roots with his old self. You have the humans mutate want to
get war. You have the apes dealing with humans. You have the apes
dealing with itself, apes not killing apes. You have the stuff with his
son. There's a lot going on for like an hour ten movie, and
I don't think any of it's like bad per se. I just think some
of it gets a little muddled because there's so much going on, there's never
a clear route. It feels like a finale of a show that maybe you're
missing some of the episodes. But I still think it's good. I think
it's just that maybe this is the most underwhelming one of the ones I like.
I would not I'm not gonna fail this movie. I still like this
movie. None of them are bad except for two. Two is a whole
different level and they all have things to say, but I think almost like
what you said Krooking, where I feel like this is like the right place
to end it too, because at the end of it, it just it
feels like the only stuff that we would have wanted more of was the stories
in within this movie. It doesn't feel like there's more to do, and
that was the good thing I think with each movie, honestly, even though
the second one had like the nukes and stuff, so you think all the
whole planet's gone. But other than the second and the first, i'd say
from three in all it always feels like it's a concluded story, but there's
definitely more to it, much like a Harry Potter movie, where it's okay,
this story, this chapter's done, but there's some loose ends that we
could circle back to. Where this does feel like a definitive like this to
me for a franchise ender, and I don't think they meant it to be
that way. If they did, great, but if not, to me,
this feels like an actual good ending because we have so many franchises that
I either have a shit movie or they just had no ending at all,
right, they just stopped making them. That was it. This feels like
it's like a full circle of Taylor and Caesar and Cornelius and Zero, like
it all goes together. And it's funny because I had in the trivia but
we talked about in the second film at one point they were talking about the
ending was going to be Charlton Heston Winova and it was gonna be a bunch
of Apes and kids all living together, and it's like, we got back
there. We got to that moment. So I think overall this and I
think there's some we'll get into. There's some dark stuff. The Apes movies
do not shy away from being dark, you know, Like what happens to
Caesar and a son, It's like, fuck man, Like that's dark stuff.
The whole people won't kill Ape. There's also some I think unintentional comedy
in here throughout that I had a good time with. So there's aspects in
here I really like. I don't think it hits the nail on the head,
but I think it is a good ending for the franchise, and I
think, yeah, it is one that ranks lower for me, but I
still enjoy it. And it's also just like, you know, you made
that joke. I can't remember if it was off here or on air,
but about Roddy McDow, it's just like there is something like if he's there,
it's just it's almost always. It reminds me of like the first few
movies of Jack Sparrow and Jack and Johnny deppup, just like you just love
him doing this role. That's how I will with Roddy, you know,
anytime he's in an eight makeup like, oh, we're gonna gt a banger
performance here, because he always brings it, you know, like he did
not follow. This is his fourth time playing Caesar slash Cornelis, which are
pretty much just the same character, and he still brings it. So Yeah,
Like the movie maybe not one of the better ones, but I still
enjoyed it quite a bit for some aspects, and of course there's some there's
some low tier stuff which we'll talk about. But mister Field, your thoughts
on Battle for the Plan of the Apes. Yeah, I remember a long
long time ago when I was first going through these movies and eventually got to
this one. I was little, so I didn't really latch onto this one
as much. I feel like the messaging and the overall theme is something that
watching it when I got older, it definitely sticks a lot more, and
watching it this time around, I've definitely, I definitely would put it more
on like a higher spot. And I'm glad that I am in a position
now where I can really after talking about all these songs with you guys and
really analyzing this one and looking at how it fits in with the story.
It's neat to see that there's so much reference in this film and just I
don't even want to say not foreshadow, but alluding to and concern that the
characters have for the future and what's going to happen. I think it has
a good kind of nod towards just what happens with Beneath the Planet of the
Apes, not that movie, but the but even I think it has.
It's interesting because I feel like this movie it serves as that filler but in
the events that proceed that first plan of the Apes with Taylor arriving on Earth.
But at the same time, I can't wait to get into it because
I've I've written some notes down on how I've kind of interpreted this and how
it's changed the the top like changed its time, and it's not going to
really lead into where we got with Taylor, unless, of course, this
is what happened and still history changed, time changed, because this is still
still probably I think like a thousand year well six hundred yeah it was twenty
years, twenty six something, so like six hundred plus years and then yeah,
exactly, Yeah, there's still there's yeah, there's still time for things
to turn to ship. But I feel like this is this is serves as
that turning point which we'll talk about later where it won't lead into that planet
of the Apes for me, and that kind of is like ancient history now.
So yeah, no, I just think that this is a fun it's
a fun movie at times with how they're tackling certain things, but I guess
very dark and it gets very crazy. It's like holy shit, like they're
not holding back in certain regards. It does feel fast and convoluted. Like
you said, Travis, there are lots of different things are trying to add
into this short timeframe, which is unfortunate. But all in all, I
like how it's it's told from a like the past sort of sense, with
Loggiver kind of giving us the rundown on things. I really like that,
and I do appreciate getting to see more of how Ape City is kind of
unfolding and how we have the laws and the different characters that are heads of
different areas of this community and and whatnot. So yeah, overall, I
think it's it's something I'm going to revisit again for sure, And I probably
would revisit this one first over some of the other ones. I like with
the Gunsmith when you know which on to the end here, but it's just
like, oh, one day soon you'll be able to give it up.
They just do that transition to he's like a young eight to like a really
old abe. You know, good stuff. But we should start there at
the end because I feel like, to me, how I've always gone is
rise of the Plan. The Apes is a prequel to the Originals, and
that's gonna link it with Taylor and he's gonna land and all the stuff's gonna
happen, because I've always said that the second the Apes land on Earth,
that would throw off the like, oh why are they gonna send Taylor to
like they would kind of know. So to me, that is Taylor landing
is the change. And then to me, because I think there is I
don't know what their intentions were. I feel like at some point when we
talked about the ending last week, I feel like their intentions were that they
were going to do the loop of zero and cornelis Land their child, that
Caesar rise up and starts this thing. But then with four it was the
hole. They kind of pulled that back. So I feel like they originally
were on the path. I think the writers have changed otherse films, but
I feel like they were on the path to kind of make it a prequel
in a sense. But then I think with this film that does kind of
to me officially change it because I just feel like at no points where the
apes I guess all takes a Caesar or die and then what a couple of
decades later, some people say, oh, humans are bad again, but
I just feel like them showing the humans and the apes altogether, I just
feel like I just don't know if they would have gone past like okay and
then back to them being slaves and stuff like anything can happen. But I
feel that that was a pivot and that was a shift. So I feel
like that's where it is in my rankings. Yeah, So for me,
it's like the hardest the hardest, I guess, way too, like the
hardest for me to digest. Like the connection between these humans and the humans
of the first movie is just like the intelligence, Like it's almost as if
they evolve in the and I know it's been like, what over a thousand
years yet to get to that point, but it just seems like they're in
early evolution stage in that movie versus yes case like here, and they're just
so fearful of what humans could become, whereas like it is kind of shown
that way in the first movie, but it's mostly just out of control,
like the hierarchy doesn't want people to even know about a possibility of fearing them
because they're just animals in that sense. So yeah, I'm with you.
I think that looking at Rise as the like the true prequel, I think
that's a nice way to look at it. And this is just I don't
know, alternate timeline. They even talk about that in this movie. It's
like man like back in nineteen seventy was it three, they're they're explaining the
multiverse better than himcu did WHOA, Yeah, I think now I think we've
gone so muddled. But yeah, they even say that, right, like
oh, there's so many variations that can happen. This could just be one
of them. Who is played. Speaking of MCU, did you notice the
actor in this? He looked familiar and then nan, he's doctor Zola from
Captain Omar. Okay, I did, I like thought that, but I'm
like, there's no way that that's that's Virgil. That's doctor Zola nineteen seventy
three. Oh shit, yeah, I think he's I love Virgil. He's
awesome a this. I think that is when he's a younger chappy. I
think he goes hard for it so you can see what like an actor he's
going to be and stuff. But yeah, yeah, he's got the iconic
cover too, for the the mug and mugshot Man, that mugshot that used
to scare the hell out of me as a kid. Just seeing like the
box set with that face on it, it just always looks like you're staring
at me. The friendly just a piggyback on when you guys are talking about
I guess with the humans where this kind of changes. So we've good enough
now the humans that we saw here the bad humans, and just kind of
bear with me because it is a long thought that I had, so the
bad humans are mutated everything like that. I'm assuming that those are the advanced
ones that we would eventually see beneath plat of the apes. Oh god,
I think if they wouldn't want to think about it, Yeah, if they
wouldn't further than they would did exactly. So here here's where things kind of
get interesting, at least how I interpret it. So we'll say that those
are the same same ones after a centuries pass. But the change here is
that since Cornelius, since Zero arrived, it prompted Caesar to go out and
look for data on his parents. Right, So if you don't have Cornelius
and Zero arrive, the apes don't go into the Forbidden City, and then
the mutants don't come get drawn out and then open conflict, the mutants get
killed, YadA, YadA, YadA. In this case, though in this
timeline, they do go there, so the mutants get drawn out, battle
happens, mutants get killed, and so now that eliminates those mutants building a
nuke in the future. Right, that's just one thing. You also have
Caesar looking at these tapes and realizing that it's the gorillas war. Here's his
parents saying that and what does that tell him? Okay, well, again
he goes in, he deals with Obviously there's other motivations for why he deals
with Aldo, but he pretty much squashes any kind of power tripped that the
gorillas would be able to have. And I think that's another factor that again
reduces the risk of their original plant of the Apes timeline unfolding. So we've
eliminated the nuke threat with the mutant humans, we've eliminated the gorilla war from
happening because Caesar's aware of that. The only thing that none of that'll pushback
but the grill. But where I think it's a little muggy is like all
the gorills also turn on all though too. That's the only thing. It's
not like that's the odd thing. It's not like, oh it becomes a
war. It's they're like, yeah, fuck all though, and they like
they pulled their swords. So it's like, I don't know how he I
don't know how Caesar stops the up. Like it didn't feel like there's an
uprising in this movie. They just don't say anything because like they're nervous about
the kid, but like they they're still they choose like once they find.
I don't know. It's it's weird because you would think that once they find,
what did the thing happen? Because he chops the tree down Cornelius,
of course is his name. He falls makes it more confusing. Fucking goes
Caesar is like God damn Roddy mcdowall's playing both like God damn plannings. But
it's like R O N and A when it's like just picol A and JR.
Token just name one of them, Sarah, you know, So it's
just because he kills them, and those other apes know that he killed the
ape and like why don't It's it's strange when they choose to turn. And
that's where it's like, I would have taken more politics and I know we're
not talking about the because'm gona let you keep going your thought. I would
have completely taken out all the mutated human stuff and had it just more about
the chimpanzees, gorillas and orangue tangs in the middle. I think that was
more interesting. But that's the only thing. It's like, were they uprising
because they just turned on older like that? Mm hmm. They do so,
so were they gonna uprise? You know? Like they didn't seem like
they were a big to just jump in and like I feel like maybe the
other gorillas didn't know that he died because that wasn't like confirmed right like he
does get just like carted away and then it's see because yeah, like in
that moment, I feel like they should have been like, whoa, that
was pretty fucked up. They ran like you over your parents. They're supposed
to be gone past curfew, get the house, get a house soon.
But it's not like they went out and we're like, oh, maybe we
should tell Caesar, like what happened? Like that's pretty fucked up with all
though, because they are very like still pro aldo and it's it's not until
later on when they're doing those chants of like murderer killed my son, and
then they're like, wait a minute, what the hell's going on? Oh
yeah, let's let's turn on this guy. Maybe they're just super wishy washy.
They keep switching teams whatever, winning that's who, that's who they side
with. Sorry Taylor, no good thought thought so no like bad thought,
no speaking. Can we be gone continue gun power before we can take because
of that is gonna be a while. I think they still did a good
job framing it. But when they're in the class and they're doing their spelling
lessons and then all those First of all, I love the whole classes ships
on all though, And I actually really like the actor playing all though,
because I think he does a good job of being kind of airheady but feeling
very scary at times, like this guy could just fuck you up. But
so like they go to the class, you spelled it wrong, everyone's making
in front of him. Cornelius is a fucking little prick who's just like,
oh, apes are stupid, and like everyone's like, oh, and realize
they're all apes or Grill. Yeah, so Grill is a stupid oh and
even though that something other gorillas are laughing at all though, But I liked
that he's just like pure power. He doesn't care what the learning. And
then he rips up the paper like because at first he's like ape killed man.
They're like, no, you've met it wrong, you're not. You
gotta go to class, And because he heard everyone else say it, he
takes notes. Oh ape kills a and he rips it up and t's like
no, I don't know, and that camera like zoomed in hard. Although
yeah, and music. I was like, what the fuck happened? And
I had to rewind and I'm like I don't want too. I was shocked
because I was like, what did he do? And I forgot and then
I went back to our memes of last episode that Noah is such a big
word. And then later on Winter Soldiers, Olda is like you don't say
the forbidd It wasn't even later though, like it was like right away,
like it's like the quick shot to all though. And then Virgil is just
like walking by random. He's like he's like no, no, no,
and he's just like carts over as if it's like a little chap bubble that
just popped up to like fill us in on, Like can't say that.
I reound before Virgil get in there, because it's like, why is this
music stinging zooming so hard right now? And I actually I appreciate that it's
no, but I got a good laugh just because we meme on that.
I just love that now after years them saying no, they've banned the word
no. You can't say it to an ape, and that the way the
way Virgil explained it to a teacher to Abe, it just made it sound
like abed it was not informed about this law, just like oh you said
the one forbidden words, there's no humans could never tell an ape to say
that's what I mean. It was like a chat bubble like it's as if
like it's just like a quick like filler of like telling the audience of what's
going on. And then because like all though pauses, like he's not freaking
out in that moment, Virgil's just explaining this whole thing as all those just
waiting there, and then teacher like comes out of like the breaking of the
fourth wall, it seems, and then like interacts with all It's just a
very like weird cut there, and they teacher why they did it. But
yeah, and the teachers like scared of his life because they do. I
like that. They do make every ape like stand up and the teacher saw
his life flash of his eyes. He's like, I'm gonna get beaten to
death, like dozens and dozens of apes and stuff, and uh yeah,
I almost wish they played like a little less cheesy because like, I get
what they're doing, right, I feel like they're trying to make it like
saying a dragative term to another person of a race. So I like that,
but I feel like in the seventies is just the way, but there's
there's like I actually think there's merit in that idea. It just it was
editing. Yeah, that all those zoomages. I first I was like,
what the fuck is going on? Like why, and they're like, okay,
it all makes sense, but it was it was fun time. So
I just that same that same classroom sequence. There was a lot of entertainment
in there with that, with that moment, but also just when Aldo gets
there and the teacher's like, Okay, I'll know you're gonna do somebody,
He's like, no, I'm not doing He's like, you will not do
it because you can't because you don't know how, And like that's when they're
just ragging on him. They're like, especially because we've seen such a similar
type of gorilla character in the second film, and he's like a general,
which I guess yeah, he says that like eighty million times, General,
call me general. General? Doesn't he have a gun? Like he's just
so powerless. He's just power tripping throughout. I liked when Cornelius goes up
and it's like ape, what was it? Ape? Does not kill abe.
Yeah, it's just like like it's supposed to be like a wholesome moment,
like really nice. You know, he sees him more than just this
little slave, and like it just the way that it goes to Cornelius and
he's just like smiling sort of at the teacher. I just could not help
but laugh. It was so weird. He's like, Oh, you're so
kind, Cornelius, you're a famine student. Cornelia Corneos was a little shit.
I'm like, like, you know, he had a coming, just
gonna say, bastard, but continued Taylor, Well, I'm sure there'll be
a couple more sidelines. But so you talked about the mutants, and we
talk about all the oh yeah, like the theory so far. So basically
in closing, I was just thinking that Zerra and Cornelius they went back in
time, and when they went back in time, it was already after Taylor
left. So at this point when they went back in time, Taylor would
still be lost in sleeping and Cryo in space. Right is no, don't
is he? Yeah? Because yeah, I guess he left at this point,
right, Yeah, you're right, Yeah, he had already left because
they're like taylor ship. Yeah, so basically his ship is still He's out
there. They're all all four of them are still out there, just kind
of like sleeping and cryos so the lady, except the lady she's dead.
The interesting thing is when you have this change of future. Now, when
Taylor does inevitably crash land on Earth, the future could be completely different.
He could land there and be like, oh, I'm McDonald the seventh,
you know, come hang out with me and uh Caesar the tenth. So
so you're saying, Heywood's land in a planet that is a better ape society
now possibly, Yeah, that's what I am deducing. That'd be interesting.
Oh fuck six months will be running this planet nice everywhere. Yeah, that'd
be interesting. That'd be a good like what if of like him landing there
and he's welcomed, you know, as a hero. He's a hero,
right, and there would be stories about him, but potentially so the biggest
man ever seen. Yeah, we've heard about how you made Brent just look
like a child. Your arms are massive. Nobody liked Brent, understand Ah,
fuck you funny apes. I just fixed him getting high with all these
aides him in a great time. But yeah, let's let's uh, let's
just fit not finish off anything, dyl frand but yeah, let's talk about
that kind of whole instant we tub all this, we may as well just
finish off I'm sure you come up in this storyline again. But still so
yeah, they said that there's power struggle. He's constantly there's like three or
four times where he won't he wants to do something and either Virgil shuts them
down by saying Cornelius wouldn't do this, or Cornelis just shut them down says
I wouldn't do this because he's just for Caesar. Right, Yeah, here
we go, right, because he's just like you put him the four pinzon
and he'd be like, I'm the one who forbidden. He's just like who
hands out guns? Well, no one hands out guns, but Caesar.
Like every every question he had again he didn't come up kind of done with
this very answer, like while you're talking to the guy made the fucking rules.
So but I like that how slimy he was that like the second he
was gone for a couple of hours for vinds On the second time he was
gone, that was full on takeover mode. And that happened to when the
war is coming to So it kind of fit like I felt like the all
though character to me fit exactly what it was, Like I thought, there's
a perfect through line for all his motivations, even the killing of the son,
Like like, do you think he meant to kill Cornelius? Like,
I don't think he meant to murder him. I don't. It's like I
like to think no, But like he also when they see him in the
trees, everyone is just like, hey, well he just heard our entire
plan, and like they're already talking about dethroning Caesar, right, and then
he and then he's like come down here, Cornelius, like unsheets his fucking
machete. What else he's he gonna do with that? I don't know.
It's kind of like you have to kill him in that moment, right,
because if they tell you the plan, that's as good as dad anyways,
So like you're kind of stuck there. But it's also such a big rule
that apparently the gorillas would have been super against that. I don't think so
in the moment, maybe maybe they would have stood up to him, Like
if if he actually came down and all those about to murder them, I
don't climb a tree. You don't like leave him in the tree because like
it's tough though, right, because it is a very tavy Chown's Jack Sparrow
Barboza ware. It's like they're talking about taking the Black Pearl, you know,
like they're talking about gen Rid of the Captain and those apes were still
in it. It's the same way I like, kay. I guess maybe
they thought because Caesar Carnelis would go back and tell his dad, but you're
right where they would think, well, there's not a kill ape rules,
So maybe would they think the worst is they would just excommunicate them or they
do some time or something, right, because I feel like there's definitely some
disagreement with apes, but I feel like this is the first situation they've had
where it's like criminal activity. Someone's trying to overthrow Caesar. Definitely first time
for murder. So it's like I'm wondering what the other apes are thinking that
about. And that's why I said I would prefer because when they do find
out, it's like you killed an ape, like they feel so surprised.
It's almost like they're feigning surprising what he killed, and like they didn't see
any of this, Like they're just throwing them under the bus because he got
caught. So that's why I actually would have preferred, like, yeah,
what did the Apes think was gonna happen if Cornelius got away? Because it
couldn't be good. Right, I'm not saying they were gonna fucking kill all
the apes, but you're trying to overthrow Caesar, who's like they're god at
this point, right, like their president, their leader. Not great,
and they didn't really stop although from hunting him. They're just like they just
watched, they sat around a campfire and just watch this kid get murdered.
You know, I think it's a good kind of reflection to of I mean
when you look at society and you look at how some people just hate other
people and they're not getting their way, and just people will just blindly follow
and not stand up and challenge it. And that's exactly what his comrades did.
They just blindly followed him at it. It's it's the it's the the
negative downside to what is it? You know, great power comes great responsibility,
and you all have that responsibility or the quote a little different thing.
It's like when you accept responsibility, you'll get great power. I've heard that's
yeah. So so what was your good reference? What are you talking about?
I know exactly what you're talking about. Okay, good, So in
your theory, what like, what are the apes? What are they thinking?
Why did they kill the other eight? Why did they kill all though?
Or they don't kill but they were gonna, they were gonna. They
have their fucking swords that they raise a skewer this ape. You know,
if Caesar didn't do it, they would have well, I mean it's even
Caesar didn't kill him, He just he fell on his own accord of the
tree. What was gonna do? He got his hands on him, well,
like come at him and he grabbed his all though, although just quit
but let only committed suicide. I don't think that, but okay, fine,
they both making the ground. I think Caesar was gonna kill him no
matter what. Yeah, I think So it alludes to that too, because
earlier he's talking to Virgil about is it what? How did he say that,
like, is it wrong to kill evil? Something like that? That
was an interesting part too that so already he has like a couple weird sly
remarks about all though. When although and then getting their first confrontation, and
then when he like rides by this horse, he says, to God,
who's the human that's his help? Riding to the McDonald he's like riding to
the fall. Yeah, it's like all that ape is riding to his own
fall, And it's like, what the fuck are you Insanua, Like what
does that he mean? Like maybe that just be politically stuff like that,
but yeah, before that whole thing happens, he's having that conversation of man
our ancestors, which is weird. Some of his ancestors he's the ones making
the ape like he's I guess he's about the ancestors in the real past,
right, like that were on the planet, would take you there, and
Cornelius and everything, because he said, are some about ancestors if they only
knew what they killed? Right? Right? So, because his only ancestors
would be his moment dead, they didn't meet, so we can't refer to
them, which I can't remember. In the OG two films, I don't
think did they mention ape doesn't kill ape? Maybe once the first movie did
they I think they did mention it? Yeah and whatever, Okay, so
maybe it was Okay, so that's fair enough. So again you have him
insinuating like oh, all those gonna go for a downfall, and then also
talking just being to McDonald's being like, hey, I wonder what they meant
by that, like do you think they'd want to kill evil apes pretty much?
Or you know? So it was and that's where again I almost wish
that the inciting inscause I think it's both of them. I like that they
do like, like I said, we toldblest in many things. They fucking
killed Caesar's kid off, like that's a dark route to go down. But
I almost wish the turn was more about the leadership because they already had Caesar
question like, oh what should I do? But it's like the second he
kills the son, everybody's gonna be like, well you fucking killed Maybe it's
over for you. I wish it was maybe maybe in like in response,
although killed his son, but I wish it was more political of him trying
to take over a lead and stuff. So they kind of were setting up
an interesting idea of you have this guy who is a threat ruining your community,
maybe hurting other apes, not killing them, how do you do?
How do you deal with them, maybe you can't kill them, but like
I said, the second you kill an ay, that's null because okay,
we're gonna kill you too. It's you know, find death penalty because I
I don't know that's a debate for originals and bread and butter. I know
we've probably before like technically, if you kill someone, you could serve sixty
years and come out. But like I'm somebody that's like I don't know,
it's like a it's over face to money. Yes, yeah, I feel
like I completely agree with just the Like I think the overall threat could have
been a lot more interesting if it was focused more on the politicking and then
you don't even need like the mutant humans to do the up rising. Like
I think this is actually a better story if you just kind of keep it
more of a civil war amongst the apes. And that doesn't mean you can't
have humans there, because I do think that part of me is an interesting
just concept of them, especially even just from like Caesar and like like the
hierarchy, I guess of society like they have no reason to really or maybe
no motivation to really keep these humans like on the pedestal that they are,
like they could really just put them in corrals and call it a day,
like they are the ruling party of the world at this point in time.
So I think it just kind of gives us a little bit more depth on
just I think, from them and what differentiates them from from where we see
the Apes and in the I guess the year thirty seven hundred whatever it is
of the first movie, when it is just a super clear like like people
would shun you if you treated human with maybe the respect that Caesar kind of
has the end this movie. So I do think that concept is really fun
and a lot of potential, I think, which is the Gorilla uprising.
But yeah he did. He did the bad deed, and nobody in the
society, even his own comrades, were on his side after he did that
point, and like you could have played around with like some people seeing him
as a really great leader because of maybe he was quelling. There you go,
that's the word of the night, quelling the threat of like the mutant
humans. Like like like if they did some sort of scenario where Caesar's gone
and then there's clearly people in like tanks just raiding Ape kingdom and then you
have, Yeah, although just pushed them back, and then everybody's like kind
of wanting to him to be the leader, like that could be a really
interesting dynamic, but that never even that never even comes to light because of
Cornelius's downfall. Yeah, and it's just like again, you gotta spend they
good. He says he wants to learn know his past. He finds these
weird stop motion videos that aren't stop motion, like it's just like audio,
very weird. Like I'm sorry, I thought my My Disney Plus, Yeah,
My Disney Plus was all messed up because it was it was the scene
of the movie that we watched with the actors and the voices, but they
just weren't moving and it was weird. And I get it because it's like
the seventies, but it's funny where it's like, yeah, it'd be the
audio and one motion and the like move over in another. It was odd.
But and I guess it's like I thought it was a very weak reason
for him. I guess I don't know. It's tough because he says he
wants to go back there and discovers past, So I guess I get it.
He hasn't seen his parents. He wants to know about that, so
I do get it. I guess it is a good enough reason because he
never met his parents, but that sets off. He goes there and there's
a bunch of the fucking new people that are in there, and like I
said, I personally would have taken out all this because that's the other thing.
I think it's disappointing where even some of myself I defend Conquest and I
really love that third act battle. To me, the battle at the end
of the movie is not It's in a big field and it's cool to see
because like, oh look, it's like Planet of the Apes style setting in
a war, Like okay, there's bus It's like, that's definitely something I
want to see done today because I think it could be done better. But
just the battle is just not that exciting. I have in my trivia note
where there's a there's a treehouse that's on fire. That's the same treehouse they
show a bunch of times. It's just shot from the different angle so they
only lit on fire ones. But yeah, I think the battle to me
is just it's a lot of running out of people and a lot of shooting
exposure, but there's just no choreography. It's just bodies around with bodies,
you know. So at least even if a great battle, see what have
happened, I'd be like, oh, it's paid off the humans. But
I didn't need the humans, and uh yeah, I know it. Wasn't
a fan of the battle. I was not a fan of the battle at
all. It seemed like they had a bunch of like like civil war what
what do they call it, green, Yeah, reenactments, because it's just
like a couple of old dudes, a couple of old dudes like slightly walking
forward and like just shooting their guns. And like the scale of it was
strange too, because it seemed like there was like maybe eight like mutant humans
one huge. Yeah, so it was bizarre and I'm just not a fan
of them across the board. I don't think the battle helped them at all.
Yeah, see anything to say on the humans in the battle, Yeah,
the humans kind of had this kind of comedic tone to them to a
slight degree, but overall it just they had a very much a ragtag kind
of shitty arsenal. Their bus was barely working, like they had some very
shitty things, and their idea was, yeah, we're going to go and
exterminate the apes and Ape City just a poor plan, very very poor plan.
And the I mean the apes defense was just setting up this barricade in
front and a lot of them died just to run to the barricade and throw
shit on the barricade. And I will say, like the humans these humans
are, they were definitely stupid. They weren't very bright, and I defer
to an example here. So the governor thought that he had Caesar surrounded and
it was just like game over and then basically the apes had their ewok moment
because all the apes were playing down on the ground, the humans thought they
won, and then instantly ten thousand apes just surrounded the humans and just took
them down and they were fucked. I will say I did think it was
odd when they pulled up and all the apes were down on the grass like
man, they did a lot of damage, Like I didn't remember seeing this
and that was my first show. And they stand up and they just all
resort back to their buses. They just fucking flee. That human may as
well been done with or plea. They didn't even try to fight, like
all its the fucking apes were back, and that fucking the main because he
was back from the last movie. I can't remember his names, like Burke
or whatever it was. He had Caesar up and it was weird because Caesar
was almost acting like he couldn't talk again because he's talking to but he just
kept me like that mouth like like he would say a thing and he's going
off about it, like and I know you picked your name clever boy,
so clever, you're clever boy. He kept saying clever over and over again
while I had the gun to him, like just shoot, like I don't
want to see Louther of course, but like from your perspective, what do
you need to talk to us abe about? The whole idea was we're gonna
destroy the city. What the fuck do you need talking about? Why he
picked his name as a book? Like why isn't he gunned him down like
every Caesars their brutus. Yeah, like it had such a It just that
humans were made to be very dumb and uh so yeah kind of all around.
Unfortunately, not nothing really I could take from the battle scene as far
as like a highlight, you know, which sucks as like the big third
act, you know, so it probably costs him a lot of money to
do that old Yeah they school bus at one they had a bunch of military
vehicles. Yeah no, they don't need that. Just spend more money on
other stuff for the actors, or make the movie. You get a fucky
lands in the middle of the war. What am I doing? Who do
I side with? I did like when well it's back and forth. I
did not like that Caesar and although ended up back in the tree, I
thought that was very just cheesy that were just pretty much do the exact same
thing. But I did like that fucking McDonald gets his chance back. Oh,
acting exactly like humans, just like he says he said under his breath
to another human that felt like he was just waiting the whole time to be
like, see you're not You're not better than us. But yeah, yeah,
I liked when Caesar was freeing them and then he kind of like like
he recognizes that humans are in a lower class position. Of course, it's
like, well, if you're gonna free us, fore us for for real.
And I just thought that was a nice little, uh, little moment
that differentiates the humans of the of the first one where they're literally like Neanderthals,
like they just can't think straight. Their brain is not working where these
ones are intelligent, and I would imagine someone in that place of intelligence,
would you know, they'd be looking for a way to get out of that
place of slavery. So even though a lot of them they have this big
speech and I get it just that they're not gonna be slaves, but I
felt like when they're having the conversation with Caesar, it's making it sound like
they're gonna leave, but then most of them just stay there still, you
know, Yeah, we have to make our own path and our own laws.
And then next one McDonnell's like, well what should we do next?
Like, well about the fuck these guns? Which I kind of I did
like because I forgot about this. You had that gun keeper and he's like,
I love where it's like, and I have a plan. And so
he's like, yeah, you want to live here, Yeah you can live
you No, No, I don't want to live here, Like I wanted
to show this place. I did like that's either like, well there'll be
a day because I thought one point they were going to show him like you
just had this huge battle and you're gonna be dumb and just destroy these guns.
So I like that the answer was, Hey, eventually we'll destroy this
hot and these guns, but we can't right now because we don't know what
threats are out there. And they did answer because I think I mentioned this
last retrospective because I was like, how do they go from the apes taking
over the city to just being back like playing the ape style. They did
mention that nukes went off. Obviously we talked about that, like with them
whatnot, but I had forgotten about that last retro So that answer to me
how they got back to like trees and treehouses and dirt beds and stuff,
because it didn't make sense that Caesar took over fucking like New York City and
then like, ah, let's go back to you know, let's go back
to the woods and just live out there. So and then my last note
that I have to is the main bag. I had a like some sort
of wingman or his right hand man. He was the taller, bald guy,
and they're talking about pretty much like a bug's life, like why they
gotta stop the ape and he said this line verbatim, Well, because A
destroys B, and then B destroys C and then C destroys D. I
wish there was a cut where he just went into the entire alphabet. I
think we once they did a destroys B and B destroys C. I think
we got it. But we also did not need to continue of the quote.
But uh, yeah, weird situation going on there when the humans leave
and you have something, they're like tired just reaching it them like zombies or
some Yeah. Yeah, no, that was That was a trippy spot and
I loved it too because our our governor was h Governor Colpe. He's at
first he's like, yeah, like if they shoot, then you can shoot
back, but shoot the mame like we don't want to kill them, we
want to interrogate them and whatnot. And then he like sends out the fucking
dumb and dumber crew that like they have no no capability of like tracking down
these people, uh like anywhere, Like it just seems like they can't find
them. So then he just calls on the radio. He's like shoot to
kill now, like don't let them get away. It's like they like haven't
even seen the targets, Like they haven't even interact with them. It's as
if they like they found out that these two apes and uh and the one
human just murdered like ten ten people. It's like, all we want them
dead now, like right away, he just hits the panic button and then
it just like escalates further and he's just like, you gotta get them,
you can't let them escape. It was just a really fast escalation that I
found pretty humorous. And yeah, when they're in like the plague Corey,
that was kind of strange. And when they just like jump down at Virgil,
I just I have no idea what happened there, Like they just get
attracted to movement, like they just leap down and grabbed them, and then
they started grabbing the guards when they ran by, like it was it was
strange. Yeah, I didn't like being there. What else do I got
here? Oh? Yeah? So then after that moment is like first officers
explaining to the governor what happened. He's just like they were fast, They're
so fast and she just cann't get them. Made me think of Edward Collin.
So what do we got now? Oh yeah, the malform thing.
I thought that was just a big point of emphasis across the board, major,
major fear for the young Cornelius. Yeah, I don't know what his
last name is. I don't think they even have last names. Cornelia,
Caesar, Cornelius, the name Caesar. The whole gorilla rally was just really
hilarious in the woods when he's just like, we want guns, guns are
bar and he's just like, again, it's not very educated. Clearly he
was failing in his school studies, but really triggered when it comes to guns
and go to school. Don't be like all though, No, I don't
want to be like all. When Cornelius was just just dying on the bed
and he's just like, they hurt me, Pop, I don't know why
you couldn't just say, like, you know, it was all though,
that murdered me. It's the gorillas. They're coming to murder you. Now
down from a tree now like that. That's what he said on his dying
bed. But fucking dummy. Yeah, that seen. There's aspects that it's
good. And I actually liked this stuff with the mom too, that she's
like, I'm gonna just let Cornelis kinda or Caesar live in a world where
he thinks his son's okay for a little bit. And that woman doctor felt
like that was she was just stuck in that set of the hut. But
there's things I liked about it, but the actual Cornelius passing on got a
little a little cheesy. I think it should have hit much harder, has
like a child dying like it just don't know. They probably should have just
had no dialogue and Caesar get back and he's dead, and I feel like
that'd be more sad, and he's just like, man, you couldn't even
say. He didn't get to say goodbye, you know, well, like
even Caesar's compatriot, his wife what was her name, Oh, I can't
remember whatever, fuck me eyes were, so whatever her name was. Like
when she cause she finds Cornelius first, right, and then she's like,
I'm not going to tell Caesar right away. In that moment, I'm like,
oh, this is gonna be such a big deal, Like Caesar's gonna
see Red and it's gonna be like the end of the last film. But
he's just gonna be burning down all these gorillas and just really didn't have any
big effect at all. And they don't even talk really too wife about any
of this. They don't like they're just like they just both say Ape killed
Ape and yeah, that's true. That's the car they probably divorced now,
not on good terms. But do you there anything to add here? Oh?
There was the one phrasing that I really liked because after McDonald was let
out by Caesar from that pen, after they dealt with Aldo and all that
and the other humans were let out, McDonald was kind of just advocating for
like, we're you say, you're not our masters, but let us have
our own debt. We all have our own destinies of us decide for ourselves,
you know, through love and whatnot. And Caesar immediately just counters with
no violence is the human way. And then Virgil, fucking Virgil, I
love him. He just counter Caesar and says, well, Aldough wasn't human,
was he had? Un? Caesariously nods his head in agreeance, and
he says, you're on the wise apes. I know I would loved it
was the other way, like, don't talk about my fucking son like that,
and you will stay slice forever. He just goes back to the original
ending of conquest. He's just like our own laws, our own people.
But yeah, Virgil, very smart character. You know, Goodie had him
by his side. So any other notes before any some trivia here? Okay,
mister McDonald from Conco's plant apes Harry Rhodes that this guy who played him
was also meant to return, but after Rhodes refused, the character was changed
to his brother and Austin Stoker was cast. So it wasn't a recast,
it was another McDonald's. He's his twin brother, right. I guess I
like to think that they just murdered the original one in New York and we're
like, yeah, you can come along. Sorry, I murder of your
brother. Yeah, I already talked about this. They yeah, they That
treehouse they showed him blown up was the same treehouse, same shot. They
just shot from multiple agos to show say the budget, So there you go.
Governor Breck was originally planned to return as the villain, but dol Mergy
wasn't interested. However, seffer In Darden was able to return, so Breck's
former security chief, culp Or KAlP, was promoted to Maine villain, which
I think would have worked better. It's weird that you have two main characters
from that first one that the actress just didn't want to come back at all,
you know, So I think it worked a little bit better. But
again, now I just wish him for They really just killed that human character
off and would have been satisfying. But no, that's why he didn't want
to come back. So I know you're gonna kill me. I don't want
to die to the apes. I want to be out there a lot,
although I'm guarantee you fucked that guy up. This is supposed with a film
that inspired Tony Mendez to create the opera Argo during the Iran hostage crisis situation
nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty one, in which he traveled to Iran to
disguise the film producer had hostage disguised the film crew in order for the country
As such, a clip from the scene with Seat which Caesar MacDonald and Virgil
arrived in the Forbidden City. So yeah, if you've seen Argo, this
had a bit to do with it. So if not, watch Argo.
Great movie director Lee or Jay Lee Thompson was very unhappy about the budgets limitations
and posed him he had agreed to direct this film before the final screenplay was
in place, so I do get it. But the same time, he
did, like, you know, agree at a time when it wasn't wasn't
sitting stone there so twentieth Cents Fox had already decided to move the franchise to
television before the production had begun. The previous Entry, Conquest, had encouraged
some christm for being too violent, so the tent with the sequels to make
it more appealing for families and children. So I guess that's why they had
a child murdered in this fucking movie. I don't get it. Yeah.
In early address, Caesars had developed radiation poison after returning to the City of
the Dead and experience hair loss throughout the film. I'm very glad they dropped
that plot because one, the makeup crew didn't need to do that, and
two, when we talk about stuff, like when we were recording this recently
with Madam Web, there's like a plot where you go, oh, you
can take that out. Sometimes movies you just take stuff out, you know,
and him losing hair, that was a good thing to take out.
We didn't need fifteen minutes of Caesar struggling with that. So and then finally,
much like the second one, they did do their ending like we talked
about, but they originally again had planned the group of kids. The end
was that included a human hybrid of an ape and a human kid, symbolizing
two species could coexist. A makeup test was made, but the idea was
removed due to the allless implications of beat reality. So, yeah, it's
interesting that both for the Funnies Too and this one, they're like, it's
gonna end with a group of people on apes and then you're gonna see kid
human ape together, like both in two different decades. They really wanted to
do this, like Hyrid human and both times are like, nah Na,
let's let's maybe not do it. So and I think that's probably for the
best. But yeah, they thought about doing it again and they got test
makeup tests and maybe in the new movie. Yeah, maybe it's gonna happen
Kingdom wait a sec, I was gonna click it doesn't count. Doesn't count.
I was blinking, Oh you playing like this? That's the video version,
tear Phil. What would you rate this movie Battle of the Apes?
Oh, I would probably go I'd probably go like, uh, seven and
a half out of ten. I feel I feel, I feel good about
this. I rewatch it, and I think it it serves an interesting place
in the timeline as where things were at one point, where things are gonna
go and just saying seeing our characters and getting to know too that at this
point where the logover's telling the story, it's in the air like two thousand
something, as we mentioned earlier, and shit goes down in three thousand,
seven hundreds. So yeah, I just think that there's there's good messaging in
this. While it is definitely a rushed film, and it could have done
with some more honed down, refined storylines and maybe even put in like an
extra fifteen minutes. I would have appreciated that just to flesh out some of
the more important storylines that we got would have made it a whole lot better.
But that being said, I think it's it's a good enough conclusion to
this five movie arc of this Planet of the Apes franchise. So I'm happy
with us having completed the number one to five, and I've been so excited
for the Tim Burton one. I can't wait to get to that one next.
Oh your just remember that a bunch. Yeah, it's gonna be something
I'll go because maybe I have a heart or a lower Scoreland Kirkland, I'm
like a six point seven five. It's almost a seven almost there. But
there's just a few things that I wish was needed more and again seven is
a movie where it's like I would watch a bunch over. This is one
that I think I would watch in the series. I think i'd watch of
course Apes, I've watched it before. I would watch. I don't know
about the other ones really, but I think I would be more inclined.
Like if I couldn't put on the first one, there's two others that I
would put on before this one, right, So that's where I kind of
go where Okay, I think it is more mid tier one definitely not the
lowest. So yeah, that's where I am. Six point si F.
I just can't get it quite to the seven, but still enjoyed, still
enjoyed some of the themes, and just just love this playing the Apes,
this original series. I'm glad we got to do it. And like I
said, I will always watch the five together. Even though I think after
the retro, I think watching at this age show probably skip too from now
and I don't know if I need to do that again, but this one
I would not skip. It's in there. I'm a little underwhelmed at some
points, but it still is going for some heavy themes, classic planning ape
style, So for sure, Yeah, I think I'm like right there with
you, like six point seven five, six and a half. I think
I was like a little bit lower, but Taylor's explanation of that little time
travel theory. Actually maybe enjoy this a little bit more in hindsight. I
like that idea of this kind of being like a different timeline of just because
of certain things that took place, certain certain steps, maybe like Caesar coming
into play. I think it's just fun to think back on. Well,
because we just watched these five movies that are kind of fresh in my mind,
I like that idea a little bit so a little bit lower coming into
this, but uh yeah, that upgraded it to maybe like a six point
seven five. I just think there's like a lot of weakness with the humans,
the mutant humans. This is a better telling maybe than the brainyacts that
we got in the second movie but just don't like them, and just a
lot more potential that they didn't really go for. Well maybe they went for
it. Didn't hit though for me at least, But yeah, I think
I'm pretty happy with that. I'm glad it's not like a fail to round
out the five movies that would have kind of maybe left a little bitter taste
in my mouth. But I'm very excited for the Tim Burton one because that
that is one that I really only remember like one or two scenes. I
think I think it'll come back as I'm watching it, but like pretty much
just the ending like that, like that ending shot is just so vivid in
my mind. I don't know why, but yeah, I'm very excited for
it. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a good one for the quality
film, all the actors in it. I think it's a very interesting time
in Tim Burton's career because I was just I think you could argue it might
be the least Tim Burdeny film of all time, and I feel like I
have to look, I haven't prepared this argument, but I wonder if Plant
Apes is the one that broke him and stop getting great Tim burn after playing
The Apes. I know there's there's lots to talk about with that movie.
I think there's definitely some bold swings there, So I think I don't think
it's gonna be like a complete shitfist. I think it's just gonna be like
it's it's it's a very interesting route that they took and I think we're on
a better path now. But I think it's gonna be a really good episode,
so look out for that. We'll be back with that very soon.
And I promise you and I'll i'll be boring B