1 00:00:18,199 --> 00:00:21,960 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emili Jashinski, 2 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,199 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, 4 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,880 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,159 the premium version of our website as well. Today we are joined by Charles 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,759 Blahouse. Charles is the Jay Fish and Lillian F. Smith Chair and Senior 7 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:47,960 Research Strategist over at the Mercada Center at George Mason University. Charles, thanks 8 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,759 so much for joining us, Thanks for having me on. Well, it's 9 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:56,200 baseball season, finally, at last, it's baseball season. And Charles, 10 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,079 you wrote a piece for Discourse called what Baseball Teaches Us? And one way 11 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:04,120 I wanted to start this conversation is just by asking you, Charles, where 12 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:11,359 your particular affinity from baseball comes. Is it something that you loved in your 13 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:15,000 childhood? What is it for you with baseball? Well, it's definitely an 14 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,719 interest that I picked up in my childhood. I was fortunate to have a 15 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:23,599 very dear friend in elementary school. He and I spent a lot of time 16 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:30,680 talking about baseball, collecting baseball cards, looking over baseball statistics, watching Pittsburgh 17 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:36,040 Pirates games, so that love of baseball was was nurtured very early on. 18 00:01:36,879 --> 00:01:42,560 What probably made me particularly hopeless is that the Pirates team that I had the 19 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:48,599 good fortune to root for was spectacularly successful the very first year that I followed 20 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,560 avidly and collected baseball cards. The Pirates went on to win the World Series 21 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:59,959 as overcoming the heavily favored Baltimore Oriols in the nineteen seventy one World Series, 22 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:05,519 and the Pirates remained a wonderful team to root for my entire childhood, with 23 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,319 players like Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargel, and I really got spoiled, and 24 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:14,080 in some ways it distorted my view of life because the Pirates would pretty much 25 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,960 always come back to win even when things looked darkest, So it made me 26 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:23,719 irrationally optimistic throughout a lot of my life. It's funny that you say that, 27 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:27,360 because actually my next question was going to be what was it like growing 28 00:02:27,439 --> 00:02:32,919 up as a staunch Pittsburgh Pirates fan with such a storied history in the franchise. 29 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,199 It sounds like, really, Charles, it was great it was. 30 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:38,520 It was great. I mean it was great. First of all, you 31 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:44,319 had the nineteen seventy one series title, which was not only great to see 32 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:49,759 the Pirates win, but you know, by nineteen seventy one, everyone knew 33 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,280 Roberto Clemente was the great Star and the Pirates we called him the great One. 34 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,520 And then he lived up to that in the World Series, right, 35 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,919 he produced heroic after heroic in the World's Series. So I got to see 36 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:06,919 my heroes performing in the big moments. But I again, not only were 37 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:12,599 the Pirates a very successful team, they were an exceptionally groundbreaking and fun loving 38 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,159 team. They were a very diverse team. It was recognized only really decades 39 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:23,960 after the fact that they were the first team to put on the field a 40 00:03:24,039 --> 00:03:29,599 lineup that was entirely either African Americans or black Latin Americans. So that was 41 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,360 barely remarked upon when that happened in September nineteen seventy one. It was kind 42 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:37,599 of noticed later. But the Pirates, again, they were a very diverse 43 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,120 group, a very fun loving group. They were a very relaxed group under 44 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:46,240 pressure, and they were successful throughout the decade, and they crowned my elementary 45 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,400 through high school experience by winning the World Series in seventy one and then winning 46 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,400 it again in seventy nine, both times in comeback fashion. So it was 47 00:03:54,439 --> 00:03:59,240 a great experience. It's funny as you were saying that, I was thinking 48 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,680 about, you know, the long suffering Brewers and the Bucks. During my 49 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,439 childhood, we had a great team in the Packers in Wisconsin, but Miller 50 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:10,280 Park opened, I think that was two thousand. There was so much excitement 51 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,520 about the Brewers and we were long suffering and you know, still though those 52 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,040 memories, for a lot of the reasons that you write about are really powerful 53 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:24,000 that you know, baseball is such a here's the quote I actually have it. 54 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,800 You quote Red Barber Brooklyn Dodgers announcers saying baseball is dull, only two 55 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:30,920 dull minds, which is probably a bit of an insult to some people who 56 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,360 are listening who find baseball to be dull, which at points in my adulthood 57 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:39,920 I really have found baseball to us sometimes we find numbingly mind numbingly dull. 58 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:44,360 But I think maybe that's because we're used to such a fast pace in sports 59 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:47,079 like the NBA and the NFL. Now with passing and lack of defense in 60 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,399 basketball. But Charles, this point is such an interesting one, and you 61 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,319 write at length about it. Again, folks can read this in discourse. 62 00:04:56,879 --> 00:05:00,680 You say, I attribute many of the analytical instincts I deploy as a professional 63 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,639 adult studying economics to my childhood experience as a baseball fan. Can you elaborate 64 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,879 on that? Yeah, I'm happy to. Now. First of all, 65 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:13,920 let me issue a little disclaimer up front. I recognize that not everyone is 66 00:05:13,959 --> 00:05:17,160 as nerdy and mathy and deepy as I as I was. Okay, so 67 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:24,279 I'm an extreme case. I recognize that. But my thesis is that it's 68 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:30,439 not just me that if you follow baseball as a kid, you develop a 69 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:34,160 comfort with numbers in mathematical ways of thinking that you probably don't if you're not 70 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,639 a baseball fan, or at least not to the same degree. And again, 71 00:05:38,759 --> 00:05:42,480 so again, not everyone's as cookie about it as I was. But 72 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,759 I would venture to say, and I say a version of this in the 73 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,120 article, that if you show, you know, even a casual fan, 74 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,720 the back of a baseball card and you see a stat line that says, 75 00:05:55,439 --> 00:05:59,920 this guy has thirty five home runs and one hundred and forty strikeouts and zero 76 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,160 stolen bases in a two thirty five batting average, they're going to form a 77 00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:10,040 mental image probably of a stocky, muscle bound for spaceman type. But if 78 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,040 you show them the back of a baseball card and they read this guy hit 79 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,319 three thirty five, he hit twelve triples, he stole forty five bases, 80 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:23,639 you know, and you know, they're going to develop a very different image 81 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,480 of sort of lean, fleet footed centerfielder type. And my point in raising 82 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:32,600 that is that you don't have to really delve deeply into the mathematics and analytics 83 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:40,399 of baseball to understand that something happens to you when you follow baseball. Part 84 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:46,199 of what I think was joyful about my own baseball fandom as a kid is 85 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,000 that I wasn't, you know, looking for things. I wasn't looking up 86 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,560 things, you know, I wasn't hunting for information. I was just kind 87 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,360 of looking around, you know, right the way kids do. And when 88 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,480 you just look at things in this sort of open ended way, whether you're 89 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,519 looking at the stadium scoreboard or looking at the backs of baseball cards, you 90 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:09,639 start to notice stuff, and you notice patterns, and you start deriving impressions 91 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:14,759 and meaning out of numerical data in ways that you know, sadly, we 92 00:07:14,839 --> 00:07:18,079 find it difficult to do in our you know, over stimulated world we live 93 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,759 in now right where there's information constantly coming at us, and you know, 94 00:07:21,879 --> 00:07:27,680 we're scrolling through the internet hunting for this, hunting for that. But that's 95 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,560 a very different experience from just sort of open ended staring and observing and letting 96 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:39,600 insights and impressions wash over you. And again, baseball I think leads people 97 00:07:39,639 --> 00:07:43,639 through that process in a very productive way, in a way that people don't 98 00:07:43,639 --> 00:07:46,319 even know that it's happening, right, But I think most people who are 99 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,399 baseball fans would recognize the truth of what I said about how you get very 100 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,439 distinct and vivid images just from looking at numbers. And that's not something that 101 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,399 not that's something that everyone is comfortable with and used to doing. But the 102 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,639 baseball teaches people how to do that. And can you talk a little bit 103 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:11,319 actually just about the experience, and maybe you know more than I do about 104 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:16,079 how influential baseball card trading still is among kids. I mean, I know, 105 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,040 obviously there are a lot of adult collectors, and even then it's sort 106 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,639 of faded, But how that as a child, just the sort of tangible 107 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,959 numbers and information on the back of a baseball card. How do those memories 108 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,440 when you look back on them? How did you learn from the baseball cards 109 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,519 themselves. Wow, that's a great question. And let me let me first 110 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:41,120 start by saying, there's all sorts of baseball card collectors. Right. You've 111 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,559 got the gamblers, right, you have the people who colleck cards and they're 112 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,360 they're flipping for cards at school and playing the games trying to win each other's 113 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,039 cards. And you have the traders, and you have the people who put 114 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,000 the cards and the spokes of their bicycle. And I wasn't doing any of 115 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,320 that stuff. And you also have the people who look at it as a 116 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,240 collectible or an investment, right, And that that completely changed the whole market 117 00:09:01,279 --> 00:09:07,200 for baseball cards, thankfully after I had emerged from childhood. But I'll tell 118 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,440 you I'd love your question because it caused me to reflect them exactly how I 119 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:18,000 went through it. I had a walk to our corner store that was I'm 120 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:22,759 guessing probably about a mile plus long, because it would take me about half 121 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:24,840 an hour to walk it back, and I would walk through, you know, 122 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:28,919 pass through the woods to get back to my house. So that was 123 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,159 a long walk, and I would I would spend a dime to get a 124 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:37,080 pack of ten baseball cards. So you're walking goodness. Yeah, so you 125 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,919 know, you had half an hour to do nothing but look at these baseball 126 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,919 cards on the way home. And by the time I got home, I 127 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,200 knew these baseball cards backwards and forwards, and to this day, even though 128 00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:50,799 sadly this is another tragic story and I really don't want to get into it 129 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,320 here. Sadly I no longer have my childhood baseball card collection, but I 130 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,679 could still tell you if you were to show me cards from that nineteen seventy 131 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,919 one set, I'd be able to tell you I had that card, I 132 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:03,480 didn't have this card. I had this card, I didn't have that card, 133 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:07,279 just because I stared at them for so long. And like I said 134 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,879 earlier, you look at numbers long enough, patterns start to emerge. You 135 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,159 start to notice, you know, as I mentioned in the article, patterns 136 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,960 of repeating decimals. Right again, you're not trying to learn that stuff, 137 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,720 and school wasn't. I haven't started teaching me long division yet or anything like 138 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:31,559 that. But just the process of looking at baseball cards got me to recognize, 139 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,720 oh, all right, but if someone has five decisions, or six 140 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:37,919 decisions or seven decisions, their winning percentage is going to look like this, 141 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,559 or it's going to look like that. There are only a few possibilities, 142 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:46,399 and there were very obvious patterns and how the decimals repeated. And again, 143 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,840 you know, I don't want to bore listeners who are who are not that 144 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:54,600 interested in math, but the point is that there is a comfort and familiarity 145 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:01,279 with division and decimals and you know, rational members and all that stuff that 146 00:11:01,399 --> 00:11:07,080 comes almost osmodically out of just staring at the backs of baseball cards. That 147 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,679 is a really beautiful way to put it. You know, at the skate 148 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:13,720 rink, they used to have football cards when I was a kid, and 149 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,480 I have very it's a sore spot between myself and my mother. What happened 150 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:24,440 to my binder full of those football cards on that point. You know, 151 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,159 there's so much consternation or you know, maybe it's it's just a very polarizing 152 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:37,600 discussion right now about whether this the sort of what's the best way to put 153 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,720 it the over I mean, probably the best word that people would use is 154 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,879 the analytical aspect of baseball going to extremes, the extreme analytics right now, 155 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:54,960 huge debate sort of has baseball fans in different directions on this. What is 156 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,759 the way to balance it? Do you think the sport has gone too far 157 00:11:56,919 --> 00:12:01,360 and maybe sports in general towards analytics, or do you think there's a good, 158 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,960 you know, maybe healthy medium that can be reached. Yeah, I 159 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,159 mean I look at this from both directions. I mean, first of all, 160 00:12:09,279 --> 00:12:13,720 I'm you know, I'm an analytics guy. I'm a math guy. 161 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:18,799 When when saber metrics was in its infancy in the seventies and eighties, I 162 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:20,679 was all over it. I was, uh, you know, joining and 163 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,879 trying to develop formulas to to do a better job of you know, replicating 164 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:31,519 you know, the actual efficacy of a baseball player and all of that. 165 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,840 So it's very interested in that. But I do agree with the criticism that 166 00:12:35,039 --> 00:12:39,080 it's possible to take it too far. And this is one of the points 167 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,960 I make in my piece, which is just you know, uncritically reciting numbers 168 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,000 and giving them the you know, the stamp of authority. It's not the 169 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,440 same as understanding anything, right. I Mean, when I was little, 170 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,159 I knew who had the higher batting average who had the lower batting average, 171 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,360 and I stupidly assumed that meant this guy was better than that guy when that 172 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:05,480 wasn't true. At Batting average was certainly something that correlated with the quality of 173 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,440 a guy's hitting or the value of his output, but it was very imperfect. 174 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,440 It was just one of many metrics, and not really even one of 175 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,799 the most useful ones. And today you have a lot of people who can 176 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:20,919 just you know, they were, oh, this guy is it leads the 177 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,720 league in war right, wins above replacement, but you know, ninety percent, 178 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:28,639 and they have no idea how to calculate it, what it really means 179 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,480 to the extent they don't understand the extent to which it really measures a player's 180 00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:37,559 value or doesn't measure it. And to me, that's not very fun, 181 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:43,279 right, It's not real understanding to just recite a number. It's much more 182 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,039 interesting to try to understand where that number comes from and be constantly looking for 183 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:54,840 places where our understanding is incomplete, at places where a player's true value might 184 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,519 actually diverge from what some formula tells us it is. So you can get 185 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,960 carried away with the analytics I think, and I think it's just you know, 186 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:05,039 it's just human nature, right, it's what we do. We learn 187 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,600 to possess information, We learn to recite information a lot better than we learn 188 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:16,480 how to critically analyze information. So I would join in that criticism. The 189 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:18,559 one other thing I'd say about it is that there have been people who say, 190 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,799 well, analytics are ruining the game, and you know, I don't 191 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,639 agree with that at all. I actually think, you know, it's not 192 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,480 analytics fault. I mean, analytics is just people trying to figure out how 193 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:33,679 to win. Right. You can't blame teams for trying to figure out how 194 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,879 to win and trying to figure out better ways to win. If the game 195 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,600 becomes boring when teams deduce how to win, then you change the conditions in 196 00:14:43,639 --> 00:14:46,480 which the game is played. You don't blame the analytics. So I do 197 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:52,679 think it's true that analytics discovered that guys with a lot of power who hit 198 00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:54,279 the ball in the air a lot, who drew a lot of walks and 199 00:14:54,320 --> 00:15:00,720 struck out a lot were more valuable than they had been recognized as being historically, 200 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,879 and that led to a kind of boring brand of baseball. Right, 201 00:15:03,879 --> 00:15:07,120 you didn't you didn't have as many people putting the ball in play. You 202 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,879 had too many walks, too many strikeouts, and you know, just not 203 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,720 enough running around the bases. So my attitude is, change the conditions. 204 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,720 Don't blame the analytics, you know, move the fences back, strength the 205 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:24,519 foul territory, make me change the limits of the bats, maybe make the 206 00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,480 balls a little sofer. There's a lot of things you can do instead of 207 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,240 pointing the finger at analytics. I mean, if you make the conditions of 208 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:33,639 the game more exciting, the analytics will go to a more exciting place. 209 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:39,360 But you shouldn't blame the analytics for you know, if baseball has become more 210 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:46,559 boring than it should be. Debt it keeps you tossing and turning at night. 211 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:48,200 You just can't get away from it. But the truth is the system 212 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,559 is actually designed to trap you in debt. 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It was electric, and I will 230 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:19,160 tell you I still remember itself. It's a flashball memory for me. I 231 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:26,039 had just gone out to graduate school, and my last paycheck for my summer 232 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:32,319 job after undergrad hadn't cleared yet, so I had like forty bucks to get 233 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,000 me through the month of September there my first month away in grad school, 234 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,519 which meant I didn't have much of an entertainment budget. I allocated myself, 235 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,680 you know, five dollars for personal entertainment to get me through that month, 236 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,400 and I spent it on this Bill James baseball abstract, which I found in 237 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,079 a used bookstore. And at the time, I wasn't able to move into 238 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,240 my new apartment yet, so I was actually sleeping on someone's sofa, and 239 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,480 I still remember lying there in that sofa paging through this look and it was 240 00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:06,279 like all these you know, lights were going off and explosions and fireworks and 241 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,279 hosannas, you know, like, oh my god, this is the stuff 242 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:14,599 that I always wanted to understand but never did understand. And the beauty of 243 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Bill James is that he was actually interested in figuring out, you know, 244 00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:25,240 how baseball worked and what what actually were the components of a successful offense. 245 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:30,039 And he liked to test whether you you know, all the cliches and tropes 246 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:33,920 that you heard on Game of the Week broadcasts were actually true and a lot 247 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:40,319 of them weren't, And so it was it was fascinating. Now there were 248 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,960 people who took to Bill James and there were people who didn't the I think, 249 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,960 first of all, if you were a defender of conventional wisdom, then 250 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,359 Bill James really offended you back then because he was tearing a part of what 251 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,319 a lot of what people thought they knew. But also if some people just 252 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:00,640 don't like the math, and I think they they resented Bill James for using 253 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,880 math, my reply to that is, you don't have to know any math 254 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,079 to enjoy Bill James. I think he's the greatest living historian of baseball. 255 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:12,839 If you just read his books and don't even go through the math parts he 256 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:19,599 has, he's he's an incredible, incredibly vivid depictor of earlier eras in American 257 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:25,519 history, early earlier eras in baseball history. So there's a there's a tremendous 258 00:19:25,559 --> 00:19:30,440 amount to be gleaned from his work. He was just interested in understanding baseball 259 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,960 across the board, which included a lot of mathematical work, but it really 260 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,119 ultimately doesn't depend on So it was it was a great revelation for me changed 261 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,680 how I understood baseball and changed how a lot of people understood baseball. What 262 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,240 do you think about fantasy baseball? I'm really curious fr your perspective on that. 263 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:49,960 Especially, you know, there's a we could open up a can of 264 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:56,240 worms about the morality of gambling. But just I think fantasy baseball is a 265 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:59,640 place where people who share a lot of interests like yours. Again, it's 266 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,039 polar I think some people love it, some people hate it. Some people 267 00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:04,440 think it destroys all of the fun. But on the other hand, you 268 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:11,000 have guys who are just immersed in numbers and analytics as fans of a sport. 269 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,359 So what do you think about fantasy baseball, Charles? It honestly doesn't 270 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,039 interest me very much. And it's funny because when I was in grad school, 271 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:22,759 I actually developed a little fantasy baseball league before these things existed, and 272 00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:26,680 I tried to run it as a side business. And I did, I 273 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,119 mean to the extent that I could. It was a pretty labor intensive thing 274 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,960 for me to do on my you know, personal, little personal computer. 275 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,880 But basically what I tried to do was develop a fantasy system that would actually 276 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:44,400 they would play actual games. You would you would take the you know, 277 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,240 the performance of the players each week and then and then actually put their stats 278 00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:52,079 together as though they were performing on the same field together and playing games against 279 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,960 the starting lineups, against your your opponent's managerial selections. And I had a 280 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:02,000 great fun doing that. But that's not the way that fantasy baseball ultimately went. 281 00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:03,839 I mean, the way fantasy baseball tends to work now is you you 282 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,440 know, it just keeps track of how players are doing very statistical categories. 283 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,720 You know, so players get this amount of hits or RBIs where I don't 284 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,400 even know what the categories are anymore. And just to me, just you 285 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,880 know, it does just feel a lot like gambling. It feels more like, 286 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,039 okay, you're just betting on which players are go to a mass which 287 00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:27,559 statistics in a way that isn't very I don't know, it isn't very closely 288 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:33,000 related to how things would actually play out on a real baseball field, and 289 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:36,400 so it's not terribly interesting to me. I understand that people are really into 290 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,119 it. If I if I were to go back and try to re enter 291 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,000 that world, I would try to invent a completely different type of fantasy baseball 292 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,240 where you're actually taking player statistics and having them play real games against each other, 293 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,680 and that would be more fun for me, right, you know, 294 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,079 I also want to ask you about this sort of particular americanness of baseball. 295 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,440 That's one of the things that I know fosters or contributes to why people have 296 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:10,319 such deep admiration and love for baseball, especially as it's tied to their childhood 297 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,920 and nostalgia for maybe what some people see at a different time, although that's 298 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,359 arguable in the country, but it is such an American sport, Charles, 299 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:25,079 from your perspective, from your the perspective of of your fandom of baseball, 300 00:22:25,319 --> 00:22:30,400 how does that factor into your memories and your love of the game. It's 301 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:36,279 it's really it's very real. For me. I think that baseball is a 302 00:22:36,319 --> 00:22:38,759 game, right, It's it's a game. It's a game without a clock. 303 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:44,160 It's very different from all these other sports that we are might say addicted 304 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,680 to now, right, Basketball, American football, you know, most sports 305 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,200 and I'm channeling George Carlin here, but but you know, most sports run 306 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,160 very differently. Right. You have this clock that's going and we're going to 307 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,680 watch the clock. Is there have time left? To do this is enough 308 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,720 time left to do that. And each team is competing to try to get 309 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,240 some ball or puck or put you know, some other object into the other 310 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:10,799 team's net or goal or end zone or whatever. That's how most sports work. 311 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,799 Baseball is very much rooted in sort of the American pastoral past, and 312 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,200 it's really it's a game. It doesn't have a clock, right, there's 313 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,920 no timing. The rhythm of the game is determined by the events on the 314 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,279 field. There's no running out the clock. No matter how far you are 315 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,559 ahead. You have to put the ball on the strike zone and give the 316 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:33,079 other player a chance to hit it. And as long as the other player 317 00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:37,240 succeeds in continuing to hit, you cannot defeat them. Right, You actually 318 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,839 have to defeat the other player. You can't just depend on time running out. 319 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,920 And the other thing that strikes me as different about baseball is that it's 320 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,920 much more like a child's game, right, if you think about the stuff 321 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,400 we do as kids. I don't know if you played kick the can when 322 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,680 you were little, or you know whatever. You know, I haven't thought 323 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,000 about that game in years, right, but I think about it. Right, 324 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:00,839 You kick the can, you run around, you touch bases, and 325 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:03,240 then you run back to the starting point. Baseball is like that, right, 326 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:07,359 You hit something, and you run around and you touch the trees and 327 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,839 you you know, you step on this, step on that, and you 328 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,839 get back home. It's it's much more closely related to that, or to 329 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,039 games of tag and things like that. Then it's related to basketball, hockey, 330 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,880 soccer, American football, any of those games. And so I think 331 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:25,039 there's a there's a playfulness to it, sort of a childlike playfulness to it, 332 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:30,519 that that we don't have another games. Other games are more they're more 333 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,359 replications of combat, right, but but not baseball. Baseball kind of ties 334 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,440 you to these these more childlike rhythms, and that there's an innocence to it 335 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,799 that I think is very beautiful. And it does you know, if I 336 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:48,440 want to feel eight years old again, I'm not going to watch a football 337 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,160 game, but I but I will watch a baseball game. That's such an 338 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,200 interesting way to put it. Are you optimistic about the future of baseball? 339 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,279 Again? I know people there are people who are very down on it. 340 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,079 Too many games a season goes on, too on, et cetera, et 341 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,160 cetera. But you know where things stand now, there have been some fabulous 342 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,880 seasons in recent years. You know, I'm sure from maybe your perspective, 343 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,039 every season is a good one. But do you feel like is there is 344 00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:17,279 there anything that MLB could be doing? You mentioned a couple of things earlier, 345 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:21,039 but is there anything MLB could be doing to make the game better or 346 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,119 go back to a better place for the game, or go forward to a 347 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,240 better place for the game. And are you ultimately optimistic? I think I 348 00:25:27,319 --> 00:25:30,279 am. You know, first of all, I just think the game is 349 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,119 It's a great game, right and the beauty of the game is that you 350 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,000 always have a chance. Right. It's not, you know, it's not 351 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:42,200 as deterministic a sport as many sports. In most sports, the better team 352 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,119 wins the vast majority of games, and baseball, you know, the best 353 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,920 team in the league might be lucky to win two thirds of its games. 354 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,480 So in any given day, you know, things are competitive, and postseason 355 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:55,880 will always be competitive. You know, it's never a lost cause in baseball, 356 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,519 and I think that helps. I also, I have to say I 357 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:02,880 give them credit for being willing to change the game. I don't like all 358 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,640 the changes they've made. There are some that I think were unnecessary. You 359 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,839 know, I think some of them are just silly, you know, putting 360 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:11,400 a runner automatically on second base or whatever, and you know, just a 361 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,160 lot of these and banning the shift and a lot of things. I don't 362 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,599 think we're necessary. But the fact that they are willing to tinker with the 363 00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,599 game to make it better, to me, is a very good sign. 364 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,000 They're no longer saying, all right, this is the way it's always been 365 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:27,559 done, so we're always going to do it this way forever. They actually 366 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:30,160 thought, how can we speed this game up? And they did it. 367 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,640 The pitch clock, I think is great. The pace of the game is 368 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,440 better now. I think there are other things I think they could do, 369 00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:40,519 but I think baseball has made itself a lot more entertaining. You know, 370 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,160 the game that I grew up watching, it took two and a quarter two 371 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,880 and a half hours to play a game, and it had gradually dragged out 372 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,559 to three and a half and it was excruciating. But now they've got the 373 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:55,680 time shortened up a lot, and I think that that really matters. It's 374 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,480 one of the most striking differences between the game of my youth and the game 375 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:03,359 as it had evolved into in the last few years. I mean, if 376 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,319 you watch clips of baseball as it's played in nineteen seventies, it was so 377 00:27:06,519 --> 00:27:08,640 brisk. You know that the pitcher did not take very long between pitches, 378 00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:14,279 and they're getting back to that, and I think that's good. So so 379 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:21,000 yeah, I'm optimistic. I do think it's it's a sport that requires the 380 00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:25,720 best of us. You have to be willing to spend some time just thinking 381 00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:29,640 and contemplating. And if you're you know, if you're a compulsive doom scroller 382 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,480 or a channel switcher, it's not the game for you. But but I 383 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:37,359 think, you know, it's it's going to have an appeal going forward, 384 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:45,319 And so yeah, I'm optimistic. Somewhat of a chilling thought as young people's 385 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:51,960 attention spans get more and more short every year. Another question that I wanted 386 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,440 to ask is how you prefer to watch the game. Do you prefer watching 387 00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:57,160 on TV? What's the best way to watch a baseball game in your opinion? 388 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:02,920 Best food? What's the best way to do it? I really you 389 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:11,759 know, baseball. This is really an interesting question because I think baseball works 390 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:18,759 really well in indirect media. So, for example, I grew up listening 391 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,240 to Bob Prince, who was the greatest, I don't care what anybody says, 392 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,279 the greatest play by play man in the history of any sport anywhere, 393 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:32,000 just absolutely riveting. He was a master, and he was brilliant at using 394 00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:36,960 the pace of his speech, knowing when to shut up and just let the 395 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:41,839 sounds take over. And so radio was my best way to do it growing 396 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:48,880 up. And you know, I enjoyed listening to Bob Prince's radio broadcast as 397 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,799 much as I enjoyed watching The Pirates on TV or going to the ballpark. 398 00:28:52,359 --> 00:29:00,960 The other interesting thing about baseball is it's fun to follow baseball even when it's 399 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,359 just you're not really watching it. So, for example, if you just 400 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,960 watch catching like a game cast on ESPN dot com or something right where you 401 00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:14,920 just you know, you're you're you're just watching a graphic, you know, 402 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,279 which shows you here's the counts and here's where the runners are. You know. 403 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:19,799 That's the way it used to be back in the pre radio days, 404 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,880 the pre radio days. If there was a big game going on, if 405 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,480 there's a World Series game going on, they would create this big board in 406 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,240 the middle of the city, you know, and then the telegraph would give 407 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,799 news on what happened, and then they would move, you know, they'd 408 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:37,599 move these little symbols around the diamond showing you where this runner was or where 409 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,279 that runner was and how many balls and strikes they were, and fans would 410 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:45,079 just you know, turn out as a big crowd and stare up at that 411 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,279 board and watch the I'm putting air quotes up now. But the broadcast of 412 00:29:49,319 --> 00:29:56,440 the game baseball, really it's one of those games that remains very vivid even 413 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,359 if you're watching it on that type of board or you know, through the 414 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:07,960 changing ellus of a score sheet or a game cast update on the internet. 415 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,640 So you know, I think it's not like football. You want to watch 416 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,720 it, right, but well you gotta watch it on TV or you lose 417 00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:17,759 ninety percent of it. But baseball, I think loses very little when you 418 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:23,799 switch from TV to radio or even to indirect updates. Hello, thank you 419 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:29,960 for listening to The Federalist. 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No questions asked that zbiotics dot com 436 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:52,480 slash r adio radio and use the Code Radio r a d io at checkout 437 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:56,519 for fifteen percent off. Thank you z Biotics for sponsoring this episode and our 438 00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:04,319 good times. US Burgers fans were lucky to grow up with Bob Yuker two, 439 00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:08,680 so that resonates absolutely is an interesting That's a really interesting answer. I 440 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,720 hadn't totally thought about that. Hot dog, popcorn, cracker Jack? What's 441 00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:16,000 your go to? Charles? Lately, I've been craving Crackerjack, and I've 442 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,519 been wondering whether that's because it's opening day Jack in years, but I have 443 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,640 this craving for it. Yeah, a good, good hot dog is a 444 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:30,200 wonderful thing. Yeah, but I have to say growing up the three of 445 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,599 Her Stadium in Pittsburgh, food was terrible. It was terrible. So Crackerjack 446 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,359 is probably as good as we were going to get. That's really fun. 447 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,319 Well, actually to my two final questions we're going to be let's start with 448 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:43,200 this one. Do you have a take on the best stadium in the country 449 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,480 to watch a game? Wow? Well, I love Campon Yards, love 450 00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:52,240 Camvion Yards. PNC Park in Pittsburgh is great. I'm biased. I think 451 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:58,359 Washington Nationals Park is an underrated park. It gets it gets yeah, it 452 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,759 seems to be regarded as someone as of the middle of the pack mediocrity. 453 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:06,559 And I think it's a terrific park. I really do. Camden Yards has 454 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:13,559 a has a beauty and romantic element to it, a very nostalgic look to 455 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,039 it that Nationals Park doesn't have. But I actually I think Nationals Park is 456 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:22,039 terrific. And of course, you know, I love you know that, 457 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:23,359 I believe it or not. I've never been to Wrigley Field, so that's 458 00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:28,720 a that's a big omission. Uh. You know, Fenway and its reconfigured 459 00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:32,599 form is terrific too. But yeah, I would say Camden Yards probably, 460 00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:37,200 Yeah, no, that's a that's a great answer. I agree with you 461 00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:40,119 on the Russian Nationals Park too, especially. I mean, if you get 462 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,920 those high up seats, actually they're cheaper, but you can see the river, 463 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:46,000 you can see the city. It's a bad way to go, it 464 00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:51,000 really isn't. And that and that promenade that goes, you know, between 465 00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:54,799 the lower boxes and the higher boxes, you know, around the outfield towards 466 00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:58,759 the parking areas, it's it's you know, it's it gives you a great 467 00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:05,720 sense of the place. And now finally, the cracker Jack's comment is again 468 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,360 sort of perfect because I was going to ask you as a last question about 469 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,599 the sensory experience of Opening Day. It's so I think exciting for everyone that 470 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:20,360 it coincides with spring. Everyone who's a baseball fan at least, there's something 471 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,519 about that. It's the kickoff to warmer days and to summer, and for 472 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:27,599 a lot of people, they just love the smell of the fresh cut grass, 473 00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:30,559 the experience of maybe being able to sit outside and watch a game, 474 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:35,880 especially if you're from a colder part of the country. Charles, can you 475 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,480 describe that for us? What is it about Opening Day that you love and 476 00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:45,360 that you think other people love so much? Yeah, I think it's you 477 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,119 know, the older I get, the more I think my mood is governed 478 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,119 by the rhythm of the seasons. And there's something, you know, it's 479 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,400 just this time of year, the days are getting longer, and they're getting 480 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,159 longer really rapidly, and there is a certain smell in the air and everything 481 00:35:02,199 --> 00:35:06,960 is coming back to life, a certain fragrance and it and it's a you 482 00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:12,079 know, it's a feeling of unlimited possibility and future growth, and it's a 483 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,000 yeah, it's a it's a beautiful time. And you know, there's there's 484 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:20,519 all the old cliches that you know, on opening Day, every team has 485 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:23,199 the same chance and and everyone starts out in the same magic number. And 486 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:30,920 that's all true. But even if you you know, recognize realistically, but 487 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,360 not every team has exactly the same chance, I still think it's just it's 488 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:40,599 a it's a reinvigorating time of year. And you know, I think almost 489 00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:45,239 everyone remembers their first time going to a ballpark and seeing that little, you 490 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,039 know, identic patch of grass there. You know, you go up to 491 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:53,679 the stadium and you see from the outside that looks very grand and imposing, 492 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,880 and then you know you're going up through the ramps and then you get that 493 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,599 glimpse in between the seats and it's like this glimpse of heaven. It's just 494 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,440 it's just mind blowing. And I think that it's like a little patch of 495 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:10,320 Eden in the middle of our cities, and it's it's a beautiful thing. 496 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,719 M Charles. That's a perfect way to end. Charles Bajaus is the Jay 497 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,119 Fish and Lee and S. Smith Chair and Senior Research Strategist over at the 498 00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:24,000 Mercada Center at George Mason University. You can read his wonderful essay on baseball 499 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:30,360 again. It's called What Baseball Teaches Us over at Discoursemagazine dot com. Charles, 500 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,920 thank you so much for chatting with us this morning. Thanks for having 501 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,480 me. Of course, you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio 502 00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:39,679 Hour. I'm Emilie Trishinski, culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be 503 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,440 back soon with more. Until then, be the lovers of freedom and anxious 504 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,400 for the fray