1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:05,519 You're listening to the Mind Next Time and Mind over Murder. As we continue 2 00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:10,480 are fascinating conversation. I'm a s writer, one time reporter from the Boston 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,800 Globe. I am now author of the Brother of a Murder Victim to help 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,879 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,640 Parkway murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,879 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 7 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:36,560 I'm Kristin Dilly, and I'm Bill Thomas as well. And Astor was 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,200 out with my partner Crime Master Thieves, the Boston gangsters who pulled off the 9 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,960 world's greatest art heist, and we are talking about the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum 10 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:49,640 art heist. Steve, thank you for joining us today. Pleasure to be. 11 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:56,799 We were laughing because the two of you immediately started getting into a fascinating 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,840 conversation and I was like time out. We got hit the record. But 13 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,920 because I do tend to carry on regarding this case and Kristen is I think 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,079 a new fan because I read the book several years ago. When you and 15 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,000 I first met, Kristin had just bought it and read it and loved it 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,760 and said, we got to get this guy on my nover Murder. I 17 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:23,280 know he'll sit up like a little puppy I do on this case. I 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,920 love the fact that almost as soon as I had said, oh, this 19 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,599 is a fascinating book, Bill immediately was like, I know that guy. 20 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,560 We're going to get him on the podcast, like immediately within seconds. Practically 21 00:01:34,439 --> 00:01:38,519 he coming from the North Shore and be coming from Dochester, which is a 22 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,840 neighborhood of Boston. We will ate real well. Steve, start by telling 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,879 us a little bit about your career as a journalist in Boston. I guess 24 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:49,840 I should say your storied career as a journalist in Boston, because this is 25 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,959 a heck of a resume you've got. Yeah, I had been in a 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,319 reporter for the Washington Globe for forty years and late in my career, and 27 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:05,000 i'd been in Washington head of the Globes Political Bureau, which is a terrific 28 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:10,280 one. Still in Washington. Came back to Boston around ninety two and got 29 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:15,879 interested in this case, which had broken two years before. But while I 30 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,759 was in Washington, And what it really was is just two men had tricked 31 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:27,159 their way into the Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum, which at the time was fraying. 32 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,680 It had recently got a new director, and she was committed, younger 33 00:02:32,759 --> 00:02:38,439 person, and she was committed to improving it and getting it back into the 34 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:44,680 limelight of Boston's cultural scene. And she succeeded, except she had this weight 35 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,439 on her that happened about six months after she took over as director. She 36 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,199 was improving so many other places, but hadn't attended to the security. And 37 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,479 the security at the time was they had put in a few improved bence as 38 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,159 far as equipment, but they hadn't really looked at the quality of their of 39 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,240 their guards or night watchmen. And as I learned, anyone who is in 40 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:15,319 the museum business told me that the most sensitive time, the most vulnerable time, 41 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,199 is at night. If someone is to pluck something off of the wall 42 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:24,159 during the day, sooner or later a museum, a visitor, or a 43 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:28,680 member of the security staff is going to realize that and is going to everything's 44 00:03:28,719 --> 00:03:32,319 going to lock down. But at night you're at the whim of As it 45 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,879 turned out, in nineteen ninety two men who had very little interest in being 46 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,719 professional security that by the fact both were in music. And the one man 47 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,280 who had total responsibility was the man who was at the desk. And at 48 00:03:47,319 --> 00:03:52,560 the time of around one o'clock in the morning on March eighteenth, nineteen ninety, 49 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,319 two men addressed as police officers came to the side door employees entrance and 50 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,960 rang the bell. And the man behind the security desk, his interest in 51 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:09,199 life was to a rock and roll bed. He had started two years before, 52 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:13,159 and he loved the job because it allowed him to be stoned or drunk 53 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:16,600 after his gig was over, to go over to the museum and just take 54 00:04:16,639 --> 00:04:20,839 it easy. There's nothing going on. Nothing ever happened except this night when 55 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:27,600 two men dressed in police uniforms are announcing themselves Boston Police and we're here to 56 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:33,240 investigate a disturbance and the night watchman. This is in a few hours after 57 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:39,240 our holy holiday of Saint Patrick's Day, and on Saint Patrick's Day is a 58 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,879 big holiday, and every police officer who works at Boston or State Police or 59 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:49,439 even the colleges is in uniform on duty, working overtime. And I think 60 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:56,560 they chose that time to hit the museum, because they knew that if any 61 00:04:56,759 --> 00:05:00,600 police officer was working the detail that night, they were going to be on 62 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,759 over. They were going to be on overtime, and they may not have 63 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,759 been as alert and on their toes as they would have been another day, 64 00:05:06,079 --> 00:05:11,279 but be those may They say, we're here to investigate a disturbance. Now, 65 00:05:11,319 --> 00:05:15,360 the night watchmen behind the desk. He knew there was no disturbance going 66 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:17,759 on at the museum. He had done the first tour, which he had 67 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:23,399 lasted about forty five minutes. He had walked through the three floors of galleries, 68 00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:29,279 he had tested all the windows and got his key locks all processed, 69 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,800 and nothing was going on. So when the two men announcing themselves at the 70 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:39,279 side doors say they're here investigated disturbance, he thought maybe some kids had jumped 71 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,839 over the back gate. And he opens up and so he makes two very 72 00:05:44,199 --> 00:05:47,920 stupid mistakes, and this is one of them his handbooks, and he's been 73 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:53,079 told you never let anybody in. To his defense, I had talked I 74 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,480 talked to him for about ten years after I got on the story, and 75 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:02,040 he told me sometimes trustees would come in or the director would come in after 76 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:06,639 midnight and he would let her in. These are police officers, but his 77 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:12,000 handbook says no one, not even police officers, are to be allowed in. 78 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,040 If they're ringing the doorbell, you call the police station and you tell 79 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:18,360 them there's police at the door, and they'll let them send a car, 80 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:25,160 but do not let anybody in. But he makes this fatal arra, unfortunate 81 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,879 error, and he rings them in and they come in and the first thing 82 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:31,160 they say to him is who else is here? And he says, only 83 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:34,959 one another night watchman. He's going to tour of the galleries. And they 84 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,000 said call him down, and he does. He has a two way radio. 85 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:43,879 Calls him down. But before he comes down, they say he's sitting 86 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,319 behind a desk. They say to him, you look familiar to us. 87 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:51,360 Are you wanted for anything yourself? Do we have a Have you not shown 88 00:06:51,439 --> 00:06:55,879 up but failed to show up to court for something? And he says no, 89 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,680 I've got no one's looking for me, and they say, stand away, 90 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,600 come around that counter and come in front of us so we can get 91 00:07:02,639 --> 00:07:06,720 a good look at you. Rick says to them the second and he acknowledged 92 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,079 me when I talked to him. Because if he steps away from that behind 93 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,879 that desk. There's only one way he can summon the outside world to the 94 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,079 if these guys are the robbers, and that's an alarm button right in front 95 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:24,839 of him, right where his stomach is, inside the security desk. But 96 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,560 he says, I knew what I was doing, and I walked away and 97 00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:32,199 I went out front. And as he walks out front to show them who 98 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,319 he is, in fact, he gives him his license. There's his driver's 99 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,439 license. The second guard comes into the room. After the second guard comes 100 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,639 into the room, they push Herrick up against the wall, frisk him and 101 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:50,519 don't frisk him, put handcuffs on him. And at that moment, Rick 102 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,480 says, I knew even before they said to him this is a robbery. 103 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Rick said, I knew that they were. And I said, why did 104 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:03,279 you step away from the war one button? The museum had one emergency button 105 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:05,879 to the outside. Why and you knew you were doing that? Why would 106 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,319 you do that? And he tapped his breast pocket and he says, because 107 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,079 I had a ticket for that night's performance in Hertford, Connecticut of The Grateful 108 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:20,319 Dead. And Rick was a sort of a very straightforward, but I think 109 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:26,399 smarter than you smarter than everybody else, had an attitude of a wise guy, 110 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,919 not a criminal, but just smarter than everybody else. And Rick wanted 111 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,159 to see Grateful Dead was his favorite group. He had a ticket and he 112 00:08:37,279 --> 00:08:41,279 was going to drive an hour and a half to Hartford that night or later 113 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,879 that night the next night. And he did, even though in the interim 114 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:54,399 they had pulled off the largest theft in world history. We're talking thirteen pieces. 115 00:08:54,879 --> 00:09:00,919 Some of the pieces are less than memorable. Of them, four of 116 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:07,519 them two masterpieces by the by Rembrant, including his only seascape and a vermire. 117 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:13,279 They're only thirty five vermires. He's said to be the most prolific great 118 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:20,639 master Vermire, and in all that one vermire, called the Concert, is 119 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,960 said to be worth more than three to four hundred million million dollars. The 120 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:31,399 Rembrandt is stunning because it's the only seascape Rembrandt ever and if you look, 121 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,360 you see it. It can be easily googled to be seen. It's donning, 122 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:41,759 it is it's Christ. It's a New Testament image Christ and the Storms 123 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:48,000 of the Sea Galilee, and it shows Christ in the in its skiff with 124 00:09:48,159 --> 00:09:52,960 all of his disciples around him, I say the music. Rembrandt loved how 125 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,639 it came out so well. He painted himself the So it's a stunning painting. 126 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,279 But then there are some pieces that no one They stole another piece I 127 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,519 believed at the time people felt it was a Rembrandt too. It was done 128 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,840 by a disciple of Ussia, an understudy of Rembrandts. But they stole a 129 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,440 top of a flagpole. They could not get a They went to another room 130 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:22,279 and they tried to get a banner out of its glass encasement, and it 131 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:31,559 was held on a Napoleonic banner Napoleon. This banner was carried by Napoleon's forces 132 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:37,279 into Russia, so truly a historic piece. They couldn't get it out of 133 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,639 its they couldn't get it out of its encasement. So they took the top 134 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,919 of that banner, and that's called a finial, and it's a golden gilded 135 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,360 eagle. And the museum has first had a million, then five million, 136 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,679 now a ten million dollar offered in the ensuing years, now thirty four years 137 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,080 later. And understand, the men spent about anyone minutes more than an hour, 138 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,159 hour and twenty minutes inside the museum. They could have spent the entire 139 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,799 night there. They tied the two night watchmen up, put them down in 140 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,159 the basement, left them there, and then ransacked, totally ransacked the museum. 141 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,240 They left that The room where they stole they did the most of their 142 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:24,679 master's pieces from, was the Dutch Room on the second floor of the museum, 143 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,720 and they stole I think five or six, seven seven pieces out of 144 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:35,840 that room. But it's donning. They left the room in shambles, and 145 00:11:35,919 --> 00:11:39,679 that gave me an inkling as to who did this. I could not believe, 146 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,840 and we were still looking for collectors who would try to sell this to 147 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,480 the highest bidder. No way, no. When I looked at the photographs 148 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,320 of the Dutch room where the big pieces were stolen, every frame is broken, 149 00:11:54,519 --> 00:12:01,480 Every class in that fronts the frames is smash and the two large Rembrandts 150 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,000 were cut with box cutters out of their stretches. You don't do that if 151 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:13,759 you're planning to resell there. So I quickly gave up this belief that there 152 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:20,399 was a art collector who could not live without a rembrand or Overmere and commissioned 153 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,960 these goons to pull off this stuff. I just I never bought that, 154 00:12:24,759 --> 00:12:31,639 and so as a result, I started my reporting and I got on the 155 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,000 story from in ninety seven, and in two thousand and four I was able 156 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,919 to convince the museum to allow me to see what they had come up with. 157 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:48,279 The FBI took over the case immediately and worked diligently and although not very 158 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:54,480 creatively on it, and they chased every lead, every phone call. There's 159 00:12:54,519 --> 00:13:00,360 a ten million dollar reward. In the last decade, the US Attorneys session 160 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:05,240 of US attorneys who head the Boston office for the Justice Department to US Attorney's 161 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,080 office here in Boston, a succession of them, and said, we won't 162 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:13,279 prosecute you. If you bring in the masterpieces. We won't prosecute you. 163 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:16,919 We'll drive you to the museum and there's a ten million dollars reward waiting for 164 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,799 you. By the time I was really into my reporting, I retired from 165 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,639 The Globe in two thousand and eight and started my work on master thieves. 166 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:30,919 I was convinced that to find who did this, it was so long later 167 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,919 after the theft, and the FBI was not getting good tips on the whereabouts 168 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,879 of the material. So I said, there's another way of trying to solve 169 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:46,039 this, and that's calling on Boston, in its generosity, in its sense 170 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,679 of a new Boston, to try to reach out to those people who may 171 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,559 know something, to say, help the FBI, help the museum get this 172 00:13:52,679 --> 00:14:00,039 material back. We survived the Marathon bombing in twenty thirteen, killed five p 173 00:14:00,799 --> 00:14:07,039 that event, and I think more than a dozen amputees. Yet we came 174 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:13,919 back from that, and that sense of resurgence, that sense making our shelves 175 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,600 hole, should be applied to this case, because no world class city allows 176 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:24,960 these masterpieces to be missing for so long without outreaching to the public saying these 177 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,159 paintings belonged to the museum, They belonged to the public. Missus Gardner put 178 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:35,360 them on the walls for us and our grandchildren get them back. You don't 179 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:39,919 know if your grand daughter could be the next Michelangelo bring them back and had 180 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,840 let her, like all of us, enjoy these masterpieces. So I made 181 00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:48,519 it into a little bit, a little bit of a tale of good and 182 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,799 evil in hopes of doing the right thing and getting the artwork back to Boston. 183 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:56,279 One of the things that was most striking to me, Steve, when 184 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:00,639 you and I met several years ago, was you were kind enough to take 185 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:05,440 me on a private tour of the gardener I'd read about and seen photographs of 186 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:11,399 the missing paintings and artwork, the paintings, drawings, the finial, but 187 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,480 I was so shocked to actually walk into those rooms with you and the empty 188 00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:22,200 frames are still sitting there on the wall. Is this part of missus Gardner's 189 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,600 will that we have to leave the legacy? Yeah? Her will. Her 190 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:35,279 will required she passed in the mid twenties, and her will required that the 191 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:39,840 museum stay as it were, that the galleries couldn't change, that it had 192 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:43,720 to stay as it were at the time of her death. As a result, 193 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:50,720 the museum doesn't change the same notepads and it depends that are on her 194 00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:54,879 desk. They are still there in the same place. It was determined. 195 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:04,159 The will is probated every year they trustees activities are viewed and regarded or considered 196 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,759 in light of what her will said. So it was determined that even though 197 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:17,639 the paintings weren't there, that nothing could be on those center places, those 198 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,519 places of centerpiece in the Dutch room, which is on the second floor, 199 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,759 and I a kin it when you walk into the room from its main entrance, 200 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:30,799 as you walk up the steps from the first floor. You walk right 201 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,440 into the room and you see the two empty frames. One was the Storm 202 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,120 of the Sea Galilee, and within twenty feet is the empty frame of the 203 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,200 Vermeire. No indication that it was the Vermire. Maybe there's a little sign 204 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:51,480 of little notepad there. And there are the masterpieces, the master works in 205 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:56,399 emptiness. I akin it to walking into her awake, being the first person 206 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,720 to walk into a wake. When you watch something important to you and important 207 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:06,160 to the community, it's just it's stunning, how heavy the feeling here. 208 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,359 You are in a place of great magistry, of great accomplishment. And she 209 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,400 did it for us. That's why she and her husband wanted to build a 210 00:17:15,519 --> 00:17:22,599 museum. She wanted Boston in America, which was becoming a world power in 211 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,359 the late eight nineteenth century. She wanted us to be able to be inspired 212 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,359 by art, and she had been. She came from a both her she 213 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,240 and her husband were Brahmins. They were well born people. They knew art, 214 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,079 and she during her life with Jack Gardner, who was one of our 215 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:47,000 wealthier entrepreneurs here in Massachusetts, they traveled the world over to collect this art, 216 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,200 and after he died twenty thirty years before she did. She hired Bernard 217 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,960 Berenson, who was a famous collector or art historian, and he traveled the 218 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:02,160 world over for her as she put together plans and then built the museum, 219 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,799 which opened in nineteen oh three. She's a very cool lady. Oh yes, 220 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,759 I like to see hers. Mydonna and Julia Child was a Brahman who 221 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:15,640 held usself that way. In a new biography just came out on her. 222 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:18,079 Because I had just read your book, I was like, I want to 223 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,359 learn more about this lady. So I'm glad you do. Yeah, read 224 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,240 that book. Read that there's shovel biographies on her, but I think I 225 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:32,039 was told that this latest one is a terrific work. You're listening to Mind 226 00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:45,799 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 227 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:51,160 back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 228 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,319 wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right now. 229 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,480 This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Lined Over 230 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:07,480 Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it 231 00:19:07,519 --> 00:19:11,880 if you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation from 232 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,759 five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly 233 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,799 helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our social media pages. 234 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,400 As always, thanks for your support. Now back to mind over Murder. 235 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,680 But I'm really curious about this idea that she wanted the museum to remain. 236 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,559 On the one hand, why you would want your museum to stay the 237 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,799 exact same way as it was when you designed it, because I get that. 238 00:19:38,079 --> 00:19:41,440 But at the same time, she had to have thought at some point 239 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,160 or another that the museum's going to need upgrades over time, especially if you're 240 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,000 going to have lots of visitors to come in and see it. Things are 241 00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:52,960 going to change. Why didn't she make provisions for that in her will that 242 00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:56,799 I don't want the art to change, but you can upgrade the restrooms or 243 00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:59,960 the fire suppression system or oh, I don't know, the security system. 244 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,000 Yeah, I don't know. I think that was presumed. Now now I'm 245 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:07,480 going to speculate on this. I don't know this. The museum had begun 246 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:11,799 to let me call it Frey, And the reason why was that the trustees 247 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:15,599 who took after her death. The trustees who took over the steering, the 248 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:22,079 operation, the guidance of the museum, they didn't really have the need to 249 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,480 raise money. There wasn't a sense that we have to buy the latest in 250 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,359 order to keep the museum modern. She did not want a modern museum. 251 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:37,240 She had already purchased and was already displaying classics of all ages. And there's 252 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:41,240 a and there. To give you an example, there is a large statue 253 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:45,200 in front of the Boston Public Library, and it has the names of eight 254 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:52,319 artists of the ages Donatello Rembrandt. Six of those eight artists have their works 255 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,119 on display at the Isabella Store Gardens. She and her husband paid for this 256 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:02,519 work to be on display to Boston because she wanted us to experience it. 257 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,279 She wanted she as she traveled the world over in the late nineteenth century, 258 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:15,799 she got a transcendent belief that art indoors everything else passes art indoors, and 259 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:19,279 she wanted us to be inspired by art. I like to say that the 260 00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:23,759 one person who I know was proof of that is my father. My father 261 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:30,119 came to the came to Boston in the early nineteen twenties. He was a 262 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:36,799 refugee from the Armenian genocide. He was raised and went to high school in 263 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:40,000 the twenties, and they started he could draw, and they sent him off 264 00:21:40,079 --> 00:21:45,000 to art school, and he became a very successful portrait artist and was and 265 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:49,319 raised his family on that and was pretty well loomed as a portrait artist. 266 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:55,079 And after he told me, after I started my work on this case, 267 00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:59,000 he said to me, Stephen, I would leave school. He went to 268 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,039 art school for two years, and I would walk over to the museum. 269 00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:07,680 It was free, that's what she mandated, free of charge, even for 270 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,880 the earliest days. But by the time he was there, the students were 271 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,160 still free of charge. He said, I could go in and look at 272 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,279 the paint I could. It was my own little workshop. You look so 273 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,319 close at who the painting, who the painter was, study his work, 274 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,440 and see their artwork so close. He said. It was just a terrificy. 275 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,920 And that's what it was. But the trustees didn't have to raise money. 276 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,400 When they didn't have to raise money, the museum began to fray, 277 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,880 and the security director told me who was in charge the night of the theft. 278 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,599 He later said to me, they just were not doing enough to modernize 279 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:52,279 the museumant. Not many were. Not many museums were, but the Garden 280 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:57,039 Museum got caught in that omission. And after the theft at the Gardener, 281 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:03,680 every museum in the country put in reforms for their security system. Unfortunately as 282 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:07,680 too later for the museum. As I see it, it was a wake 283 00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:15,200 up call for museums around the country and even private collectors who owned beautiful pieces 284 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,839 of art that they needed to do a lot more to protect themselves from this 285 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,920 kind of theft. The other grand theme that I came up with is I 286 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,720 was dealing with a man in the mid nineteen eighties. There was a theft 287 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:33,240 of Pressionists from a smaller museum in Paris. They solved it about eight years 288 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:38,440 later, and I was in touch with the head of their artsquad and I 289 00:23:38,519 --> 00:23:41,880 said to him, his name is in the book. I said the detective, 290 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,559 what are we missing here? How come you? And the theft was 291 00:23:47,599 --> 00:23:52,599 about ten years old that I said, you solved yours in eight years. 292 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,000 We're at ten years unsolved. Now, how are you able to solve this 293 00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,160 and we're not able to solve ours? And he's said, there's one big 294 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:07,960 difference your people. Art here in France is considered the public's position. You 295 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,680 don't have that, you don't have people feeling that they took it from me. 296 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:15,440 And he said, that's how we got ours. We got tips from 297 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,519 the public all the time. It never stopped. But I don't think we 298 00:24:19,759 --> 00:24:26,440 the bad guys who know something see that as their responsibility or their obligation to 299 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:32,440 help in this stuff. It's the old world, and it's difficult to me 300 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:37,039 to convey this, but I'll say the words Boston in nineteen ninety when this 301 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,279 stuff took place, it still had major influence of organized crime. The snitches 302 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:48,200 get stitches. That was the code of silence, that was an operating credo 303 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,440 in many neighborhoods of Boston. That's gone. That's no longer Boston. That 304 00:24:52,599 --> 00:25:00,359 is no Boston is playing by the rules. There's no big organized crime hold 305 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:04,839 controlling of bedding or whatever. That's all gone. But I still think there 306 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,759 are people who know things about where this artwork was taken, if it wasn't 307 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:15,519 destroyed. And let's I don't know that somebody people still know of who knew 308 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:19,759 what, and they're still refusing to pick up the phone and give a tip, 309 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:25,279 to give the information to the museum. Or the FBI because they feel 310 00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:30,480 that they will be breaking the code the old World cup, give me a 311 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,720 break. The code that prevails is that this is being denied our citizens, 312 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,759 our people, our grand children. In that sense, that imperative needs to 313 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:47,759 be stated and restated. I've even reached out to the card O'Malley, who 314 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:52,720 was a grand great man. We've recovered from the clergy abuse scandal of the 315 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:56,920 twenty years ago that The Boston Glow wrote about and Spotlight Team wrote about because 316 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,920 of Cardinal O'Malley was put in place. But he could get in front of 317 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,519 these empty frames which are so evocative, and say we have to bring these 318 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:10,319 paintings back to Boston. Each of us has an obligation to do what we 319 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,000 can to get them back. So are any of the people that would be 320 00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:18,200 in a position to know, all these years later, and we are talking 321 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,400 about a lot of years of lapsing since nineteen ninety, are any of them 322 00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:27,599 still alive and in a position to steer law enforcement to where these paintings might 323 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,680 be found, either some of them or all of them. Let me see 324 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,839 if I can answer that I believe they are. I believe, but it's 325 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,839 not I know where I know where they hit them, where they hit some. 326 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,440 I think what they know is that my uncle, my late brother in 327 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,519 law, or the guy who I used to run bets for he knew something 328 00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:55,400 about this. It's those people who don't want to get involved. They still 329 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:02,839 say it's Omerica. Don't say anything old world. And who are you helping? 330 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:07,480 You're helping the haves. We're have notts. The criminal element is the 331 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:11,200 have nots. Who are you helping? And I would sit in the few 332 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,839 organized crime people who whom I would sit with and talk with get blue in 333 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,880 the face. They don't go by the information that we do the haves do. 334 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,359 How do we make up our mind on big decisions? We weigh, 335 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,160 we talk to experts, we read the paper, We find a lawyer who 336 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,160 may know something and in this field, and we consult with them. It's 337 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,799 not how the bad guys did their work. They were all on rumor, 338 00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:44,160 on suspicion, on word of the wink in the art. That's how they 339 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,079 did their business. And you know that, you know that with the theme 340 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:55,960 of your podcast, you know how criminal information among criminals is considered so valuable. 341 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,359 Like when I came up with this idea that had to be done for 342 00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:04,799 another reason than to fence the artwork. There had to be another reason. 343 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,279 And I went just went to the few sources I had, and I said, 344 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:12,960 what's why would you do this if you're going to treat the artwork so 345 00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:17,400 bad? And I said, it wasn't done to fence. It was done 346 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,319 to get somebody out of jail. And that's where this idea, this coda 347 00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:23,920 of get out of jail free cot, this was going to be used as 348 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,920 a bargaining chip the return of Summer, all the artwork in exchange for getting 349 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,240 a key mobster out of jail. And it's there was one guy here in 350 00:28:34,319 --> 00:28:40,039 Boston who had been arrested for doing a theft up in Maine. He had 351 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:45,039 stolen Wyath paintings, allegedly with Robert Donatti, the main character in this case. 352 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,519 And when he got caught, not Donati, but this pretty well known 353 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,920 art thief. When he got caught, he came up with the idea that 354 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,559 the only way they'll give me a break is if I steal something else, 355 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,160 and he at a gang with guns. They went and they stole a remprant 356 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,680 out of the MFA in the early seventies, and he hid it underneath the 357 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:12,680 bed of one of his pals. It's insane. Two years sitting this valuable, 358 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:17,559 incredibly valuable painting is sitting under the bed, under the bed, left 359 00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:22,519 leisure there for two years. Then calls his lawyer and the remarkable thing is. 360 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,039 The more remarkable thing is, as he's being arraigned for the stealing of 361 00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:32,440 the Wyeth paintings, some steak caught yellswim as he's being walked up the steps 362 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,559 of the courthouse. His name is Miles Connor. First name, Miles. 363 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:40,440 You're going to need a Rembrant to get you out of this. Miles stole 364 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,680 guns his gang, They break into the MFA, they steal a large Rembrandt 365 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:51,359 off of the wall, and they hide it for two years. And then 366 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,759 Miles calls his a lawyer and says, to the lawyer, tell the FEDS, 367 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,440 if they give me a deal, I'll give them their Rembrandt back, 368 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:03,359 but I need to get a deal on that other case involving the stolen Wyath 369 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,799 paintings. And his lawyer says, I don't think the FBI deals that way, 370 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:11,319 but I'll tell them, And the FBI says, listen, he can 371 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,640 tell it. Give us stuff Rembrandt back, he can tell it to the 372 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,480 judge, and he tells it to that he does, he gives him the 373 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,000 Rembrant pack. No one knew what the hell is Back in the seventies, 374 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,079 no one knew what the hell happened. But all of a sudden, the 375 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,839 mfa's got the Rembrandt pack and Miles goes into court. He tells the judge 376 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,160 what he had done, and the judge says, that's all well and good 377 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,799 Miles, but I'm giving you eight years for the main theft, in another 378 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,759 eight years for the for the for the MFA, for the museum fine arce 379 00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:41,880 theft of the Rembrandt. But he allows him to serve the one eight year 380 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,359 sentence co terminously current and out of that case, Miles has to serve eight 381 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,000 years. Every bad guy in Boston that I went to and says, hey, 382 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,119 to get out of jail free, cut, I said, he didn't 383 00:30:55,119 --> 00:30:59,279 get out of jail free yet to serve eight year. Don't you read the 384 00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,440 papers? Now you're steal something this big it to get out of jail free. 385 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,240 But I followed the bouncing ball on that motto get out of jail free 386 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,160 card, and the next thing I know. I'm being called by a lawyer 387 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,279 who says his client wants to talk to me. Because when the client was 388 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:18,880 in jail on a fifteen year sentence, his underling had come to him and 389 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,480 said, we're going to steal something so valuable that the Feds will have to 390 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,680 leave you a get you out of jail. And when the guy said to 391 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:29,720 him, don't involve me, he knew this Donati was not the smartest, 392 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,240 not the brightest ball in the house. He said to him, Bob, 393 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,920 do not involve me in any of your crazy schemes. Donati had already done 394 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,960 the theft, but he had these paintings in his house and he didn't know 395 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,559 what to do with them. Not knowing what to do with them, the 396 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,279 other bad guys hear about him having this artwork, and they start to follow 397 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:53,359 him around and they start to threaten him, and when he doesn't give up 398 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:59,640 the paintings, he suffers a very brutal death. He was almost beheaded. 399 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,119 Rude, and these guys did tough guys, and they played for keeps. 400 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,920 And when Donadi, who was a member of the ball, when he wouldn't 401 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:13,680 give up these paintings, he suffered a terrible, tragic, terrible. His 402 00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:15,960 sister said to me, they could have killed him with just a bullet. 403 00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:20,079 I knew he was in a criminal world. Why would they have to be 404 00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:25,240 so brutal to him? That's why I think that this artwork, these masterpieces 405 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:29,519 that he stole, were in his house for a period of time, and 406 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:32,680 they became almost targets on him. A year and half after the theft, 407 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:38,000 he was brutally assassinated. Join us next time on Mind Over Murder as we 408 00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:45,079 continue our fascinating conversation with Steve Kirchen, longtime reporter for The Boston Globe and 409 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:52,279 author of Master Thieves. The book is Master Thieves, the Boston Gangsters who 410 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:55,160 pulled off the world's greatest art heist, and the documentary is This is a 411 00:32:55,319 --> 00:33:00,640 Robbery, available on Netflix. Stephen, thank you some thanuch for joining us 412 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,640 today. This was a real pleasure. Bill Kristin, thank you very much 413 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,759 for having me, great to chat. That is going to do it for 414 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:08,920 this episode of Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 415 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:22,839 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 416 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:29,759 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our 417 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:34,720 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 418 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,599 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You can follow 419 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,799 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 420 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:49,160 on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 421 00:33:49,200 --> 00:34:09,760 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over murderou