WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:08.439 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Being Frank. 2 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:17.399 We're the only way to be is Frank. Well everyone, and welcome to 3 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.879 Being Frank. We're the only way to be is. I'm your host, 4 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.280 Frank Labono. We'd like to thank you for joining us here on what we'd 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:30.039 like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. Hey, we know your time is 6 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:35.200 valuable. Competition is fear so many podcasts. Everybody's got a podcast, But 7 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:39.240 we like to think of ourselves as an alternative to all that noise, So 8 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.759 we really appreciate you sharing at least some of your day with Being Frank. 9 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:48.479 No. We stream from Hudson River Radio dot com from beautiful and historic Stony 10 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:52.320 Point, New York, and of course the mailman because he always delivers. 11 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:57.000 Mister Neil Richter is our engineer. He keeps us streaming. You know. 12 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.600 That's our home base. But remember you can download us wherever and whenever you 13 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:07.280 listen to your favorite podcasts. That includes iHeartRadio, Spotify, Apple Speaker, 14 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.959 and all the others. You can find the links on our Hudson River Radio 15 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.280 Facebook page. It's public so it's easy. 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You'll be sure try to and beginning on every Thursday 25 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.319 night. So but listen to your convenience. Remember we're archived on all those 26 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:06.239 different podcasting platforms, so you can listen to any Being Frank virtually anytime you 27 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:10.240 want. We think it's the intelligent thing to do, and we're regarding live 28 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:15.800 to tape this evening on the twenty second of June, to just give you 29 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:23.759 some context of when this program was recorded. Artificial intelligence, the seemingly ubiquitous 30 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:28.840 AI. We've heard so much about it, especially lately, but do we 31 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:34.639 really understand what it is and the ramifications its use are bound to produce. 32 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.599 Certainly, in a utopian world, AI would be able to cure diseases, 33 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:45.439 relieve mankind from many demeaning and dangerous jobs, and advance knowledge, science and 34 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.120 art beyond our wildest dreams. Bombers are already using it to increase their output, 35 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:57.400 and Paul McCartney just used artificial intelligence to remaster some older Beatles music with 36 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:02.199 excellent results. However, it also poses a great danger where the world is 37 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:07.360 ruled by machines, and man, should we even survive, would be relegated 38 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:13.960 to servitude to the almighty machine. The latter vision is shared by many and 39 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.199 for longer than you may have imagined. Most our listeners are familiar with the 40 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:23.759 human like rogue, the computer howl that takes over the International Space Station with 41 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:30.319 disastrous results in Stanley Kubrick's seminal nineteen sixty eight film two thousand and one, 42 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:37.120 A Space Odyssey. Nineteen ninety four's film The Terminator paints a particularly bleak picture 43 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:42.800 of the future of mankind, where machines controlled by artificial intelligence are in the 44 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:49.439 process of eliminating mankind, and that dystopian invasion goes back much further, long 45 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:55.599 before the term artificial intelligence was even conceived of Prince Lang's nineteen twenty seven science 46 00:03:55.759 --> 00:04:03.199 fiction classic film Metropolis. A society whose heart is a female like machine that 47 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:10.240 is literally worshiped by the people of that society. It's certainly a topic worthy 48 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:15.120 of much debate and intelligent conversation, because once we go forward with it, 49 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.160 I fear there's no going back. And who better to help us discipher all 50 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:25.680 of this is Boredom's media professor and a frequent contributor. Here, always welcome, 51 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.680 always full of intelligent conversation, doctor Paul Levins. And Paul, thank 52 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.920 you once again for joining us well as my pleasure as always to be here. 53 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:36.759 And I have to say you are opening for this show is so impressive. 54 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:43.600 I would add that being Frank is not only the only way to be, 55 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:49.560 it's the only place to be all another mark that would you, Neel, 56 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:54.519 We're going to save that for our promo. We appreciate it, Paul, 57 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:59.959 and really we always appreciate you coming and bringing your expertise and your outspoke 58 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.879 goodness and your honesty. We know we can always count on you with that, 59 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.839 and now you have a lot of experience as a science fiction writer, 60 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.160 etc. You know, I teach you and call you the renaissance man, 61 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.040 but you truly are. We'll talk a little bit more about that later as 62 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.279 we're going to feature some of your music that you compose and play. In 63 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:21.639 addition to being a full professor at fordam a writer, reviewer, etc. 64 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:26.560 And one of the things one of your specialty is science fiction, which of 65 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:30.279 course falls within the realm of artificial intelligence. But let's break it down. 66 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.680 I mean, we hear it all the time, do we really know it? 67 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:39.240 What constitutes what is artificial intelligence? Is it a computer? Is it 68 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:43.639 a robot? It's a thinking thing? What would you say it actually is? 69 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.959 Well, it's not today, and I would saying that also in the 70 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:57.079 foreseeable future. What you read and hear and see in science fiction. So 71 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:03.600 you mentioned Terminator, great moving. You know, Arnold Schwartzenegger not a great 72 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:12.560 actor, but he did a good job him exactly. I'll be back. 73 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:19.120 So, you know the problem with artificial intelligence is when people who work in 74 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:24.639 that field come out and say they're very, very concerned it could get out 75 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:30.399 of control, it could take over the world. People who have not studied 76 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:36.279 artificial intelligence, and all they really have all those dire warnings, they actually 77 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:42.600 think that there's going to be a knock on their door and someone who looks 78 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.839 and sounds like Arnold Schwartzenegger is going to be there. And it's extremely important 79 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:55.079 to let everyone know that that is not what the concern about artificial intelligence is. 80 00:06:55.399 --> 00:07:00.240 First of all, what is artificial intelligence? It's just a ANSI word 81 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:10.439 for computer programs that are so sophisticated they seem to be thinking on their own. 82 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:16.079 And if you add into that voice capabilities, for example, you could 83 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:21.160 probably buy a car today. This isn't my car, but you probably can 84 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:25.959 get a quart today where you're driving it and all of a sudden, whatever 85 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.920 else you're doing, the voice of the car will come on and say, 86 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:32.519 Hey, you know, I'm pretty low in gas. You mind going to 87 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.040 a gas station. I don't want to get stuck out on the road. 88 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:40.839 It's snowing outside. God knows what's going to happen to us. So that 89 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:46.600 does sound lifelife, just like Series sounds lifelis. You're saying that we're experiencing 90 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:50.240 a lot of it already today and things that immediately came to minds as serious 91 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:56.160 is a form of artificial intelligence that they kind of make it, they say, 92 00:07:56.160 --> 00:08:00.639 they scientist programmers, I assume make it lifelikes. So is that to 93 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.600 make it more acceptable? What are your thoughts therefore? Yeah, Well, 94 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:09.480 because if you can put a human sounding voice, So let's look at Surrey 95 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:18.720 to the output of a computer program. A computer program which is able in 96 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:24.839 the first place, to be invested with all kinds of knowledge, and even 97 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:31.639 more impressively, can even learn that can gather new knowledge when it comes into 98 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:37.120 contact with information, and the output of that is a human voice. It 99 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:45.039 certainly seems like we're in talking to another intelligent being. And although it's not 100 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.080 the same as a parrot, and a parrot, of course, also can 101 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.399 have a voice that may not sound human, but it can speak human words. 102 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:58.519 But you can't really have a conversation with a parrot. But just like 103 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.879 we understand, of course, the parrot's voice doesn't mean the parrot is in 104 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:07.720 any way human. I think we need to understand that Siri and all of 105 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:15.039 these advanced computer programs are not intelligent in the same way we are. So 106 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:22.879 you mentioned Fritz Lang's great movie from the nineteen twenties. Another important work from 107 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:31.480 that time is are you are? The Czech writer Kpak probably pronouncing his name 108 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:39.000 wrong, but it's c apek Rossum's Universal Robots. This has become the classic 109 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.440 trope in robot and artificial intelligence stories. It comes back in the Terminator, 110 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.879 it comes back in Hell, and the basic trope is, we try to 111 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:56.600 make these artificial intelligent programs as intelligent as possible, until they become so intelligent 112 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:01.240 they don't like taking orders from us. That's perfect if I might jump in, 113 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.279 because when we mentioned some of these films, which are you know, 114 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:11.600 and they're interesting and educational and groundbreaking in many ways, as Stanley Kubrick's two 115 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.840 thousand and one was, especially when you consider the date nineteen sixty eight and 116 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:20.120 we mentioned Siri and a human like voice. He's real nice to the guys, 117 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.519 and his job is to take care of everybody. And then when he 118 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.240 and this is where our conversation can roll. Where As I said, they 119 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:33.120 get intelligence enough where intelligence seems to be associated with a certain amount of self 120 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:39.799 awareness, That intelligent things include a certain level of self awareness, and certainly 121 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:46.919 it's suggested that's al the computer becomes self aware because when the Cure Delay character 122 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:50.440 wants to turn him off. How does more have any of it? I 123 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.759 don't want to die and even as a concept of his own mortality, is 124 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:58.960 that possible? I mean, what a vision and in some way and again 125 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.159 the human like voice, I don't think so, and he says it's so, 126 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.919 never loses his temper, but makes it very clear. But he's going 127 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.440 to be the one in George, your thoughts on all that fascinates me? 128 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:16.919 Well, it's possible, and it works beautifully as a plot device in science 129 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:24.440 fiction, but in real life. What's missing with our current AI and I 130 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.080 would say in the foreseeable future, who knows what's going to happen, you 131 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:35.840 know, a thousand years from now. But what the how character is doing 132 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:43.559 is really combining not only artificial intelligence, but artificial life. Living organisms always 133 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.240 act on behalf of their own survival. And you know, if you're lucky 134 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:54.240 enough to have a dog, the dog might even be willing to sacrifice itself 135 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:58.559 on behalf of you it's master, although the dog doesn't think of you as 136 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:03.639 a master. The dog is just, you know, someone who has what 137 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:09.159 we would call a love for the human being in its life. And this 138 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:15.799 is the essence of life in many ways life wants to survive. It reproduces, 139 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:22.080 it has defense mechanisms, it has ways of gathering food, it can 140 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:28.480 sense dangers and so on. And what science fiction has done is combine that 141 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:37.879 with an advanced thinking machine. But there is no evidence what soever that any 142 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:43.399 machine wants to be alive and wants to continue being alive. And as a 143 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.759 matter of fact, if you look at what these AI scientists who have come 144 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.519 out and warn the world about AI, what they're actually yeah, that's right. 145 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.919 What they're saying is they're concerned that human beings will use AI to create 146 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:07.720 ever more convincing deep fakes. Human beings will use AI in social media so 147 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.960 that you'll think you're having a conversation where the person when it's really a clever 148 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:18.799 Russian bot, you know, spreading very carefully constructed and appealing to some people 149 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.799 lies. So that is not again the AI in science fiction, where these 150 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:33.679 entities are really and truly alive. That is the use of sophisticated computer programming. 151 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.320 And you know, let's be clear, we've been using computer programming in 152 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:43.799 ever more sophisticated ways since the first computers. Oh, perfect question, if 153 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.639 I might do it's a perfect segue because one of my questions that I have 154 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:52.159 listed here, what was one of the first or earliest examples of AI. 155 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:56.279 Then with that in mind, and it's been around for a while, what 156 00:13:56.360 --> 00:14:00.440 would you say are some of the earliest examples of AI. Well, the 157 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:07.240 earliest examples of AI were they literally go back to the nineteen forties and the 158 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:15.639 nineteen fifties. The first in those days, computers were these vast that they 159 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:20.039 took up the size of a building at Fordham University. You know, contrast 160 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:26.559 to today you have more power on a phone. But they were a kind 161 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:33.639 of artificial intelligence because they could be programmed to do more than just simple tasks. 162 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:39.879 To get a little bit into computer programming, artificial intelligence is a series 163 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:46.960 of if such and such happens, if you are given such and such information, 164 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:54.799 then you respond appropriately. So if you want to have a security artificial 165 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:58.840 intelligence system. One of the earliest uses, and this goes back to the 166 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:07.159 nineteen Deason's got more and more developed, is you have a computer program hooked 167 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:13.720 up to a video camera, and you know, the video camera is program 168 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.879 to let this person, that person, and the other person into the building, 169 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.840 but no one else who looks any different and so the computer program will 170 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.000 flag somebody who's trying to go into a building or any place that they're trying 171 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:33.759 to keep secure, and then we'll let human beings know or sound an alarm. 172 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.600 By the way, it won't send out a deadly ray. You know, 173 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:43.759 again that science fiction. But the point is that's really the basis of 174 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:50.600 computer programming, and that's also the basis of artificial intelligence. These if then 175 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:56.759 statements, and the more sophisticated you get, the more strings of those statements 176 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:04.639 you can have. And you know, arguably we've had artificial intelligence really since 177 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:11.840 the first computer was developed in the nineteen forties. By the way, this 178 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.759 was thought about not in science fiction, but in a scientific way by Charles 179 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:25.279 Babbage a century earlier, who wrote about and talked about the kinds of computers 180 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.919 that Alan Turing and others in the late nineteen forties in the early nineteen fifties 181 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:36.879 developed. And your question, though, is a very important question because it 182 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.320 assumes, and I understand why it assumes, I think incorrectly, that there's 183 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:49.799 somehow a breakpoint between the computers we now use and these artificial intelligences that can 184 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:55.840 do god knows what. But there isn't. It's just a continuum of more 185 00:16:55.879 --> 00:17:03.680 and more sophisticated things. And the idea that a computer on its own would 186 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:10.240 do something that it wasn't programmed to do that is just not the case. 187 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:15.880 Yes, a computer can be programmed to recognize information as relevant to what its 188 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:21.640 central core is, but that's just responding to that part of its programming. 189 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:26.400 So computers can learn, but again that's not anything like human intelligence or even 190 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:32.880 dolphin or chimpanzee intelligence. Interesting, so in other words, in a sense, 191 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:40.440 and if we combine a little bit of psychology with sci fi or to 192 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.240 be humanists to feel, it's not only to think, but it's also to 193 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:49.440 feel. Do you ever see a time where computers will be, through some 194 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:56.000 type of programming, be able to feel, to empathize, to feel and 195 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:00.839 express empathy, sympathy, etc. In a way that's I guess self generating. 196 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.880 I mean, you could program to do a voice as you could say, 197 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:11.599 as you said, even falsely put a voice into somebody's personality if you 198 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.640 will, you know, if you follow me, but you know, in 199 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:21.359 reality, is it possible to inject some type of computer with any type of 200 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:26.799 feelings or emotion? Is that within the realm of the doable in not only 201 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.759 the near future, but even a distant future. Well, here is the 202 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:37.200 point when we say human beings are feeling. Let's say someone insults us and 203 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.160 we feel angry. We know what that feels like, right, I mean, 204 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:45.799 you can feel the blood coursing through our veins. I don't know if 205 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:51.079 the blood is circulating any faster, you know, than when we're relaxed, 206 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:56.160 But we know what it feels like to be angry. So you could easily 207 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:04.359 today program a computer and have the computer have a list of things that the 208 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:11.680 computer would have an angry reaction to. For example, if someone asked the 209 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.559 computer or question, the computer answers like, well, let's say even just 210 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:21.920 Siri doesn't have to be a nameless computer, and the answer doesn't satisfy the 211 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:26.480 person who asked the question, and so the person says, you're an idiot, 212 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.519 Siri? What are you giving me this nonsense information? And you could 213 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:34.799 easily program Siri to then react in an angry way to say, in like, 214 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.960 you know, an annoyed tone of voice, who are you calling an 215 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.640 idiot? You know I tried to give you the best answer I could, 216 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:45.559 you know, you know, don't quote me an idiot. You're the one 217 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.960 who's an idiot. And so you know, to stay in the realm of 218 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:55.240 science fiction, an extraterrestrial intelligence landing on Earth and just seeing that exchange, 219 00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:00.960 might think that Siri was quote really unquote angry, but I would say, 220 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:07.480 no, theory isn't really angry. She's not feeling anger. She is behaving 221 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:14.200 as if she was angry because she was problem I hear you. Okay, 222 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:19.039 you know another thing in terms of practicality again, and it goes across the 223 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.799 board from jobs to art, and let's talk a little bit about art. 224 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.079 And very interestingly, a few weeks ago, or maybe a month or two 225 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:34.599 ago, a gentleman won an international photography award with what they thought was a 226 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:41.119 photo because it was a photo competition, and he did it on purpose where 227 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.960 it was AI generated and he made a real distinction and he said, yes, 228 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.400 it is art. I did create it, but it's not a photograph. 229 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.240 It may look like a photograph, but technically speaking, it was not 230 00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:02.480 created through the photography process. So there there's as you mentioned it, I 231 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:07.680 guess it really relies on the integrity of human beings. Then they're really the 232 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.680 ones were flawed to be able to use it in a positive way. Now, 233 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.799 one of the positive ways, and I mentioned in my intro of My 234 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.079 Tease, was that Paul McCartney found some old The Beatles tapes and decided to 235 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:23.240 use and you need to clean them up if you will, very effectively. 236 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.920 So that was on a positive sense. It was still their music, it 237 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.400 was still the late John Lennon, etc. But in a way that use 238 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:36.319 the skills of AI to improve it. That's on the upside. But again 239 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:41.759 as if dishonesty comes in, there isn't a downside where people could be winning 240 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:47.200 competitions under false pretense. Well, a couple of things. Let's first go 241 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:55.400 to music. What Paul McCartney said he did in a BBC interview regarding another 242 00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:00.480 John Lennon demo, one of the handful that Yoko ono to Paul McCartney after 243 00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.480 John Lennon was tragically murdered. And we know that in nineteen ninety six the 244 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:15.279 Beatles released Real Love and Free as a Bird. They basically reconstituted the Beatles. 245 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:21.200 Even in that recording, Jeff Lynn, the producer, did an enormous 246 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:27.160 amount of work on Lennon's voice to make it sound and blend in in a 247 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:33.799 beat less way with the Beatles singing live in nineteen ninety six, and as 248 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.880 a matter of fact, you have to go back to the nineteen forties when 249 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:45.279 there was recording and there was no manipulation whatsoever. If Frank Sinatra one of 250 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.799 his big songs, it was on a second album, that Old Black Magic, 251 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.759 that old Black Magic. If he went in and recorded that Old Black 252 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.880 Magic and realized after he recorded it that he had hit a bad note in 253 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.720 there, the only way he could have remedied that, say in nineteen forty 254 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.279 seven or forty eight when it was first recorded, or maybe a little earlier, 255 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.240 he would have had to record the whole thing all over again. By 256 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.759 the time the Beatles were recording in the early nineteen sixties, that wasn't necessary. 257 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:21.119 They could splice together, you know, the correct note being hit, 258 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.119 and put that in with the rest of the song and splice out the bad 259 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:32.039 note. By the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, the number of tracks 260 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:37.480 had mushroom from four to eight to sixteen to thirty two to sixty four, 261 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:41.000 and that meant you could put in as many different parts as you wanted. 262 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:48.400 You could sing harmony to yourself without even batting an eyelash. And that was 263 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.480 way back then. And you know, many people, including me and probably 264 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.839 you you know, saw and heard and loved Peter Jackson's The Beatles Get Back 265 00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:02.519 and that music sounded great. When you heard that cassette on the rooftop, 266 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.880 my god, I couldn't believe how good. And I remember I was thinking 267 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.039 to YEA, what was I half asleep when I heard the original? You 268 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:12.880 know, let it be U. You know the album that that was in 269 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:18.480 that didn't sound that good really, And sure enough, and Peter Jackson's proud 270 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:25.000 of this. He used AI to improve the sound. So what Paul McCartney 271 00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:32.160 said, they are they did with this third John Lennon demo that was originally 272 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.839 written and the demo was recorded by John Lennon in the nineteen seventies. That 273 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.960 is just more of the same. And that's why again I think people are 274 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.880 overreacting to it. But to get to you a question about art and so 275 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.200 on, I'll ask you a question, and you know, see what you 276 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:56.359 think of this. What is the difference between somebody who has a vision for 277 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.519 what a scene should look like and that person sits down and paints the scene, 278 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:08.519 whether it's watercolor or oil. What is the real difference between that and 279 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:17.000 another person who has that same vision, but rather than manually painted, figures 280 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:22.759 out a way to use a program to get that vision up on the screen. 281 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.839 Now, I'll tell you that what I would argue is I get that 282 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.480 in the first case, that artist has a physical dexterity with a paint brush 283 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:36.599 and paint on canvas, But the idea, the vision is still the same, 284 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.480 And isn't the second person also artistic in a certain kind of way because 285 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:47.839 that person had that beautiful vision. You know, if the Mona Lisa was 286 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:52.319 not painted by hand by Leonardo da Vinci, but was the result of an 287 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.839 AI program, should we admire it less interesting? Well? You know what 288 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:00.480 it's it's a great point that you bring up, Paul, and it's one 289 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.640 that I use with my students, and I use the example of the great 290 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:11.119 scenic photographer Ansel Adams whose magnificent portraits of Yellowstone and El Capitan, etc. 291 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:17.680 You know, they're virtually legendary and they are original photographs, but he manipulated 292 00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:22.240 them in the three digital days with what they pull burning and shading, where 293 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.240 he would use his hand and wand it over while he was developing the et 294 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.359 cetera, because he had a vision and he wanted a realization of the vision. 295 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.200 So it was kind of an analog. If you will, run the 296 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:38.200 digital and even today digitally, I mean, I do manipulate my photos to 297 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:44.480 a degree to see what I would like them to represent now as part of 298 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:47.920 my m O, if you will. I don't like to overdo it because 299 00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.720 as a journalist, you know you're allowed a certain amount of cleanup. But 300 00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:55.720 then again, there are ethics that are involved, and we've been talking about 301 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.799 that since the very beginning. There are ethics involved, particularly with journalism and 302 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.799 photography and journalism it should be real, not manufactured. But you certainly I've 303 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.920 cleaned up photos, I've cropped them. You know it's not necessary. I 304 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.759 don't need to see all the other crap that's around and need you to focus 305 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.200 on what I need you to see in the in the middle. So I 306 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.440 hear you there. But again I think, and that's what the fear is 307 00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:26.599 is the fine line is their format for over manipulation and dishonesty, if you 308 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.839 will, Somewhere somewhere along the line, and I think that's what some people 309 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.559 are afraid of. Well, let me say there are ways around this. 310 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.960 For example, a lot of professors, insecure professors, in my opinion, 311 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:44.400 are all concerned and upset about chat GPT because they're students. Rely. Yeah, 312 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.079 right, I will sign them paper to write, and they'll just have 313 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.559 chat GPT write to paper. Well, first of all, chat GPT, 314 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:56.000 if somebody wants to write a paper about me, you're welcome to scour all 315 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:02.680 of my you know, articles and books I've written and have people write papers 316 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:06.519 in my name. I'm flattered. The only thing, though, that I 317 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:11.480 would think would be a good idea for once, maybe Congress will do something 318 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:19.680 useful is pass a law that says any product of chat GPT it will have 319 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:27.599 to have an irrevocable notice at the beginning that this work was created by chat 320 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:33.240 GPT. That's all, and then there won't be that problem. So I 321 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.519 have no problem. I don't like plagiarism or people lying any more than anyone 322 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:42.960 else does. So if there's a great work of art, don't pretend that 323 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.440 it's being done by a human. People can still enjoy it. Say this 324 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.640 was the result of AI and you know, whatever the program was and that 325 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:57.279 would be a law that I would support passing. Right, So there should 326 00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:03.079 you believe there should be some regulation. And it looks like where the Internet 327 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.240 kind of got away from regulation. Maybe good thing, maybe bad thing, 328 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.839 and probably more bad than good, But discussion for another day. You'll come 329 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:15.519 back again. But they seem to be getting an earlier handle on this to 330 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:19.759 be able to prevent things from that like that from happening. So you feel 331 00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:25.640 that's probably a good idea that there should be some level of regulation. Yes, 332 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:29.000 I mean, but I'll even be more specific than that. I mean, 333 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:34.480 I don't like the term regulation. Just one just one simple, straight, 334 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:41.240 straight froat thing like a watermark, an irrevocable watermark on anything that AI 335 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:48.880 produces, just in case some unethical human being decides to try to pass it 336 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:56.079 off as his or her own creation. That's all no problem. And again, 337 00:29:56.279 --> 00:30:00.880 just to be clear, that is such a far cry from you know, 338 00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:06.079 oh my god, this isn't really the Beatles, you know, because 339 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:10.160 now it is the Beatles. It's just the Beatles with their voices and has 340 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:14.200 to manipulate, which was always the case to some extent, by the way, 341 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:17.480 as I'm sure most of your listeners know nowadays, you know, to 342 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:21.759 get back to the Frank Sinatra thing, you could hit a hundred bad notes 343 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:26.799 in a rendition and they were automatically fixed. You know, so everyone has 344 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:32.400 perfect pitch. Yeah. Interesting, well, you know, perfect, perfect 345 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:36.519 time to take a little break here when we come back. We just celebrated 346 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:40.359 the fiftieth anniversary of the cell phone, and I want to talk about the 347 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:45.079 tremendous impact it's had on our life, not only technically but socially. And 348 00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.880 I looked up, of course it did my research and found out the prototype 349 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:53.039 of the first cell phone get this wait, two point five pounds, It 350 00:30:53.079 --> 00:31:00.200 had a battery life of twenty five minutes. We've come a long way in 351 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.359 those fifty years. We'll talk more about it. My very special guest is 352 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:10.160 doctor Paul Levinson, media professor at Fordham University, and our conversation is around 353 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:14.519 AI, the good, the bad, and the ugly. This is being 354 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:17.160 Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host. 355 00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:22.000 Frank Lebond will be back with more right after these brief commercial messages. Hudson 356 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.279 River Radio dot com bring a dash of green into your life. Check out 357 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.519 the many shades of Green with Maxine, Margot Reuben, and Malcolm Berman. 358 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:37.119 Get informed about environmental issues and current events that affect us. All pick a 359 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:41.680 shade of green and raise your eco consciousness with the many shades of green available 360 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:49.359 on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You 361 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.960 ought to be in movies, well, at least you should watch movies. 362 00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:00.839 The silver Screen Podcast talks about all aspects of film and entertainment, current films, 363 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:05.559 old films, how movies are made, and interviews with moviemakers, authors 364 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.319 and musicians too. Check out the silver Screen Podcast at Hudson River Radio dot 365 00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:22.039 com or wherever you get your podcasts and go watch a movie. Hudson River 366 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:27.200 Radio dot com. We're back, Well, hopefully you're back too. It's 367 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.720 being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, 368 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:36.119 Frank Leborono. You know we're here every week every week beginning on Thursdays. 369 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.599 We stream from Hudson River Radio dot com. But you remember, you 370 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:45.680 can get us wherever and whenever you listen to your favorite podcast. We're here 371 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:49.880 with a fresh topic every week. My very special guest tonight is for a 372 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:55.960 media professor and often contributor to being frank doctor Paul Levinson. We're talking AI. 373 00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:00.119 We're also going to talk about the history the fiftieth anniverse of the cell 374 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.480 phone. But before that, I want to make one last point. We 375 00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:08.319 were discussing a little bit during the commercial break to kind of wrap up the 376 00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:14.960 idea that you can be creative, but if within limits. And let me 377 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:19.119 explain that if you will. There was an image that I noticed that was 378 00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.160 very popular on Facebook, and it was a wonderful image when to use that 379 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.519 word and stress that because that's going to be important. And it was of 380 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.960 a nice older woman and a really cute dog next to or sitting in a 381 00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:34.880 diner stall and they were looking at each other and kind of left laughing and 382 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.799 smiling with virtually the same expression. And it was a very narrow depth of 383 00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.799 field with what they call a Boca effect in the background, kind of out 384 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:45.759 of focus, and it was just this wonderful, wonderful picture, let's call 385 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:47.960 it. And everybody said, oh, I love this photograph. It's a 386 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:52.359 wonderful photograph, and not to be a kill joy, but I had to 387 00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:57.759 repost it and say I must correct this here again. I don't want to 388 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:01.079 be a stick in the mud because it is a fun image and everybody should 389 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:06.200 enjoy it as an image. But it was not a true photograph. It 390 00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:09.719 was created, and it was very creative and it was very effective. But 391 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.639 I think as part of our conversation, and Paul, I want you to 392 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:15.559 weigh in now I will finally wrap up my promise. You know it is 393 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:22.599 being frank and I am being Frankie. Anyway, I think it's important, 394 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:27.199 as you mentioned, to somehow clarify that, yes, it is wonderfully created. 395 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.400 It didn't detract from the image, but it was not a photograph. 396 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.480 Maybe because I have a photographed it touched a photographer, It touched a nerve. 397 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:43.679 All right. I think you answered this question this challenge yourself when you 398 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:50.119 correctly pointed out we've had photoshop for what at least twenty years. It's incredibly 399 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:54.159 easy to take things out of photographs, to crop photographs. You know, 400 00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:58.960 even on your phones, you can erase a person that you don't like the 401 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:05.639 pograph. Persons never there. So the truth is ever since photoshop and I 402 00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:07.960 got news for you. One of the things I often tell my students when 403 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:13.199 I'm teaching the quest which I talk about fake news. There is a I 404 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.960 love this. There's a photograph of Abraham Lincoln and I was taken whenever. 405 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:22.760 It was in eighteen sixty three, and he looks great. He's standing up, 406 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:28.559 you know, really very very presidential, almost like a statue like so, 407 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:30.960 you know, straight. And you know why he looks so straight. 408 00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:37.639 It turns out that in real life Lincoln was always slouched. He was a 409 00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.880 brand man. He freed the slaves. Posture, however, was not his 410 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.519 thing. He was always slumped over. So they were taking this photograph of 411 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:47.800 him was right during the Civil War. They wanted to inspire the troops. 412 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:53.119 He just didn't look good. Finally, Lincoln's people got desperate and they came 413 00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:57.960 up with an idea that says the eighteen sixties, they took a photograph of 414 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:04.079 John calhouns and this is both this is ironic. Also, John Calhoun was 415 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:08.760 an art secessionist, a champion of slavery, a Southern senator. They took 416 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:14.800 a photograph and he was like a very upright, distinguished looking right. They 417 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:17.880 locked his head off and they put Lincoln's head on it. And that's the 418 00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:22.039 photograph. You could look it up for yourself, just you know, you 419 00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.199 know, do Abraham Lincoln John Calhoun. You'll see this photograph. They have 420 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:30.760 the original photograph of John Calhoun. It's John Calhoun's body with Lincoln's head on 421 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:36.920 it. So my point is, from the outset, photography has not been 422 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:40.679 about the literal image. You know. Andre Bazare, the film critics, 423 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.760 said about the photograph that rescues and image from its proper corruption and time. 424 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:51.800 That's very poetic, but it's not the whole story. The whole story is 425 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:58.880 that not only rescues an image, it also gives the photographer increasingly the capability 426 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.119 of altering the image. So what you're talking about that photo of the dog 427 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:07.559 and the lady in the diner, that is just a clever, you know, 428 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.039 on sophisticated use of a process that in one way or another goes all 429 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:16.519 the way back to Abraham Lincoln. Point well made, brilliant or let's switch 430 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:21.239 gears a little bit. I want to read you something here. On April 431 00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:25.800 third, nineteen seventy three, Marty Cooper on Sixth Avenue near the Midtown Hilton 432 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.239 Hotel in New York City, called his rival Joe Engel, head of eight 433 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.159 T and t's Bell Labs, to tell him that his team at Motorola had 434 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:42.320 created a functional portable phone. Hooper recounts this story in his book Cutting the 435 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:47.360 Cord. That was the first use of the cell phone. Then in nineteen 436 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.199 seventy three, it took well, that was seventy three, and Motorola started 437 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.960 selling him in eighty three, and they had a price tag of about thirty 438 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.599 five hundred to four thousand dollars, so few people could have for them. 439 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:02.840 And in a recent survey, this is great, Paul, You're gonna love 440 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.599 this. A recent survey of more than one thousand respondents that was commissioned by 441 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:14.599 a cloud company, Sinc. Revealed that twenty three percent of those surveyed said 442 00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:20.239 they couldn't last an hour without their cell phone, and nearly seventy two percent 443 00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:25.960 they couldn't imagine going more than a weekend without their mobile phone. So here 444 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:32.159 we are an amazing device again, like Ai good Evil all wrapped into one. 445 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:38.360 It's an amazing tool. I just traveled through Europe with my steps on, 446 00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:45.800 and his use of it to navigate us all over multiple countries was extraordinary. 447 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.039 Yet there are other times I'll be in a jazz club and I want 448 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:52.239 to see people I want to smack the cell phones out of their hands while 449 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:58.079 they're texting or looking at something else instead of the act that's right in front 450 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:01.719 of them. So where are we with cell phones? Well, first of 451 00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:06.119 all, I think the cell phone is one of the greatest inventions in the 452 00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:10.800 history of human kind, and a lot of people don't know this. The 453 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:20.960 cell phone caught on more quickly than any other medium in history. Television had 454 00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:27.239 the previous claim to that title. But there are cell phones now in more 455 00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:35.880 hands of people than any other medium, and that speaks to how essential the 456 00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:39.719 cell phone quickly became, not only as a way to have a conversation, 457 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:44.440 which was why it was created in the first place, a conversation where you 458 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:49.639 were not tied to the umbilical cord of the telephone in your home, or 459 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:52.800 the telephone and phone booths. I have to say I have a nostalgia for 460 00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:58.679 those phone booths in New York City. They smelled horrible, but you know, 461 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:02.480 they can't imagine the germ factory. I'm just thinking about touching them now, 462 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:07.840 just get it off ves. But some people lived in them, but 463 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:13.559 I mean there was something about them. But I prefer, you know, 464 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:20.519 having the liberating device that can just carry easily in my pocket and call anyone. 465 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.400 But calling, in many ways is the least of what people can do 466 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:29.480 with the cell phone. You mentioned GPS. That's an important, very important 467 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:35.239 development. Texting. You know, anybody probably younger than sixty these days, 468 00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:39.480 spends more time texting on the phone than they do talking on the phone because 469 00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:45.840 they just find it easier to express their and their views and their feelings and 470 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:51.639 their ideas and writing. By the way, so much for the critics of 471 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:57.119 media, these legion critics of media, which unfortunately you find in the academic 472 00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:02.000 world. We're very well populated with these critics who were concerned in the nineteen 473 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:07.480 seventies and eighties, Oh, this is the end of literacy. You know, 474 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.480 we're going to find no more books anymore. People aren't reading anymore, 475 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:15.360 they're not writing anymore. Well, I guess they spoke up a little too 476 00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:22.639 soon, because by the nineteen nineties and going into the two thousands, you 477 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.880 had people not only reading and writing, but more than ever before in human 478 00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:30.440 history through their phones. Not only that you can take pictures on the phone, 479 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:36.400 you can listen to music on the phone. The phone has become an 480 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:45.519 all purpose device in which you can do so many things it almost defies imagination. 481 00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:46.920 I mean, if you think about something you want to do, you 482 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.760 know, okay, yeah, the cell phone can do it. There's an 483 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:52.920 app for that, you know. I have an app. I like getting 484 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:59.000 as much vitamin D as possible, But you can't go out and get vitamin 485 00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:02.159 D at a time usually between ten and two when the sun's rays are so 486 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:07.239 harmful you'll get sunburned even worse. So I have an app that knows where 487 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:12.840 I am and it tells me, okay, you can get vitamin D safe 488 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:20.280 Vitamin D from two pm to five thirty pm. This afternoon before two pm 489 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.480 is dangerous. It sounds that good. After five thirty the angle of the 490 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:27.480 sun is no good. So you know, imagine a specific thing like that, 491 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.840 and you can do that through the phone. So you know, I 492 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:36.440 know, I sound like a champion of every technology that we talk about, 493 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:43.440 but that's because I think technologies have improved our lives, and AI, as 494 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:45.159 you pointed out, has improved all lives. By the way, there's there's 495 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:50.920 an AI program I don't know if you saw this that doctors are now using 496 00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:55.039 where they look at the AI looks at scans of the human brain, and 497 00:42:55.079 --> 00:43:02.320 the AI can successfully predict whether certain brains based on their scans may at some 498 00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:07.960 point in the future develop malignant tumors, and therefore they were that kind of 499 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:13.239 prediction. You keep an eye on those people and you can get you know, 500 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:17.719 to those brains as soon as possible and have a successful outcome. So 501 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:23.440 that's AI. But phones, you know, they have done an unbelievable amount 502 00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:29.320 of good things for human beings. They of course can be misused. You 503 00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.239 know, people get irritated by them again if they get addicted to them too. 504 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:37.559 They were literally just you can't have a conversation with them because they're so 505 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:40.480 buried in their phones. There's a certain psychosis associated with them. All there 506 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:45.480 is. I've seen it. Yeah, well you know, listen. I 507 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.360 often I have like a joke, but the safe thing implies to phones. 508 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:52.400 I often tell my students, look, I'm not going to tell you don't 509 00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.360 fall asleep in my class, because if, if you know, you fall 510 00:43:55.400 --> 00:44:00.679 asleep, it's probably because I'm too boring a lecturer. I do, basically, 511 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.039 yeah, I do, basically saying I don't want you to snore because 512 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.599 then you're drowning out. What I'm saying, but unlike other professors, I 513 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.920 don't tell students. I don't want to see you look at your phones in 514 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.239 the class. I don't want to see you look at your laptop. Hey, 515 00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:17.480 you're the one is paying tuition. You want to hear what I'm saying. 516 00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:22.840 Fine, you find it boring not interesting, Okay, I'm sorry I 517 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:29.519 didn't interest you. But that kind of you know, parental attitude towards students, 518 00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:35.000 I think is something that's misplaced, to say the least. Well, 519 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:38.159 I'm gonna move on to I know you're excited about the release of a new 520 00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:44.239 anthology, Robots Through the Ages that's coming up. I believe in July the 521 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.199 release, and we'll be talking about it in more detail. But let's let's 522 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:51.480 tease our listeners. What's it about and why are you so excited about it? 523 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:57.280 Well, I'm excited about it because it's a book and anthology of science 524 00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:01.519 fiction stories about robots. It has one of my stories I wrote in two 525 00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:08.719 thousand and nineteen, Robinson Calculator. That's one of the more recent stories in 526 00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:15.280 this anthology. It also has stories by Philip K. Dick, Fritz Lieber, 527 00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:22.440 Jack Williamson, Ambrose Bierce, who wrote a story Moxon's Master that several 528 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:31.039 different titles, way way back in the eighteen nineties. And I'm beyond proud 529 00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:40.679 and flatterood that my story is sitting there next to these great titans of science 530 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:45.679 fiction. Where will people be able to get the book, the anthology, 531 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:51.119 Well, it's published by Blackstone Press. They're a great publisher, and they're 532 00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:57.519 going full throttle with this. They're they're publishing a hardcover in paperback, in 533 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:02.519 kindall. They've already commissioned an audio book. By the way, another story 534 00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:06.880 in there which I read as a kid, and I grew up loving this 535 00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:12.360 writer's work. Abram Davidson wrote a story The Golem in the nineteen fifties, 536 00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.159 and by the way, Apropo Robots in Ai, the Golem was a mid 537 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:21.920 evil legend about a rabbi in Prague who put together a bunch of clay and 538 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.599 invested it with a human spirit somehow, and so that was it wasn't a 539 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:30.800 robot, but it was like an artificially intelligent being. That story that Abram 540 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.679 Davidson, the late Abram Davidson wrote in the nineteen fifties was given a reading 541 00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:44.119 by none other than Leonard Nimoy who played Spock and Star Trek, the late 542 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:50.679 Leonard Nimoy and Leonard Nimoy's reading of the Golem will be in the audio book 543 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.440 of Robots through the Ages, and I saw who was going to be doing 544 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:59.559 the reading from my book, my story. I'm very proud about that as 545 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:07.360 well, another eminent voice over actor. So I think this is, you 546 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.840 know, going to be a book that really has come out at the right 547 00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:19.480 time because all of these concerns about artificial intelligence they were written about in science 548 00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:24.159 fiction ten, fifteen, twenty fifty years earlier, and frankly, that's where 549 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:29.480 they belong in sience fiction, not you know, on the news. Oh 550 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:34.719 my god, you know Arnold Schwartson that is knocking at the door. They 551 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.679 say. Timing is everything, Paul. This is great for your book. 552 00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.800 Of course, we always want to thank you for being being frank and you're 553 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.320 always intelligent conversation. You'll come back and we'll talk about Robots through the Ages 554 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:52.760 when it's ready for publication. Okay, absolutely. My pleasure is always to 555 00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:54.920 talk to you. And we always think Neil Richter, our engineer, he 556 00:47:55.039 --> 00:48:00.320 drives the bus, He gets us where we need to be. And course 557 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:02.639 special thanks to our listeners who take time to give us a voice in their 558 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.800 lives. Very important to me and to everybody here at Being Frank. Remember 559 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.440 we offer a fresh topic every week and you can catch us wherever and whenever 560 00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:17.079 you get your favorite podcasts like Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Speaker and more. 561 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.039 You can also check us out on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. 562 00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:27.119 Like us, please and leave us a comment too. We also that you 563 00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:32.320 ask We also ask you to consider sharing Being Frank with others. A couple 564 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:36.599 of things I'd like to leave you with. This is from Dwaite D. 565 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.880 Eisenhower, and I think it's kind of appropriate for tonight. In the councils 566 00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:46.159 of government, we must guard against the unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, 567 00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:54.639 by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise and misplaced 568 00:48:54.639 --> 00:49:01.360 power exists and will persist. Some poignant words there. Well, Paul, 569 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:05.480 I didn't let you go yet. I'm glad you're still there, and I 570 00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.119 tease you, but I also mean it that you are a renaissance man, 571 00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:14.760 writer, author. I guess that's pretty much the same, but professor, 572 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:19.360 musician, composer, and you've got some music for us to end tonight. 573 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.800 Tell us what it is and what it's about. Please, Well, I 574 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:29.639 wrote and recorded this song in the height of the pandemic in December twenty twenty. 575 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:36.440 It's called Pictures on the Phone and it talks about how a person's true 576 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:42.880 love is an image on the phone. He can't go out and see anyone, 577 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:49.280 but actually appropope AI. I don't mind telling you that I wrote the 578 00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:55.119 song. The voice is mine, but basically the instrumentation was not played by 579 00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:01.239 any human being. I used an AI program it's available online, and I 580 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:06.840 basically gave it the chords, I gave it the tempo. I said, 581 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:08.480 I want to have, like, you know, a bass guitar here, 582 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:14.000 I want drums here, you know. And it did like several mixes until 583 00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:16.880 I got the track I liked, and then I recorded my voice over it. 584 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:22.280 And that's what you're going to hear in Pictures on the Phone. What 585 00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:27.559 were the perfect clothes for We're truly intelligent conversation. Paul always enjoyed, always 586 00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.679 a pleasure. Thank you again. My pleasure is always Frank and of course 587 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:37.480 thanks Neil Richter or engineer once again, and to all our listeners. This 588 00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:39.559 is being Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your 589 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:43.440 host, Frank LaVona. We sure hope to see you next week. Take 590 00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:51.559 care of them who get around taking pictures on the phone. I don't want 591 00:50:51.719 --> 00:51:04.159 to be alone to change sad life as quiet as a stung just to flick 592 00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:16.920 a drunk away. My best friends are only on the screen. True loves 593 00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:28.000 can be touched. You see stone the ground makes a cushion for the ninth 594 00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:38.039 perfect quarter for the sight of you. Far from the time, you'll beyond 595 00:51:38.039 --> 00:51:47.480 the reach of light, dancing pixels. In Delight to Blue, you seal 596 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:57.559 up the deepest wounds and grind. Yeah, he up the bruises and the 597 00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:07.480 time expired links don't do nothing for the soul. Always leave you far from 598 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:17.320 a hole at home. Really, tire restraints can't do nothing for your head. 599 00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:31.840 I'll try cyberspace instead. At from the condoms window the path the future, 600 00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:59.840 choose a place that cannot land. This is Hudson River Radio dot com.