What's up, y'all is Drewsky and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewsky. Learn the backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around the topic? Come on, bro, I had that tell you like I'm Vifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson, and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewsky on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Pile leaned in and said something to Freddie, don't let them change you. Keep working on what makes you different and what makes you special. It was great advice, but it calls me some problems. But what could change Freddie Ado Soccer is going to explode it and it's going to be around this kid. We're the Beatles. Everywhere we went it was the Freddie Show. And with that came the expectation, and with that came the pressure. New episodes of American Prodigy drop Tuesday from Blue Wire Podcasts. What is krack Lack and Hardwoodnocks listeners, I am DF Valley coming at you without my co host Adam FROMLL Today. Both. We do have a loaded podcast for you, nevertheless, and that's Capslocks Loaded. We are going to be rolling out our look aheads for as many teams as we can before the start of the season. It'll probably leak into the regular season, but guest Galore, they're coming and it starts now. We're gonna talk to light Years podcast sam as Findiari today. Follow him on Twitter at sam as Findiari. That's at Sam E. S F A N D I A r I after him. We are going to be have TJ McBride fellow Blue Wire podcast or he hopes the Rocky Mountain Hoops podcast. He's going to be coming on to talk about the Denver Nuggets. You can follow him on Twitter at TJ McBride NBA spelled exactly as it sounds. And then we wrap up with a look at the Oklahoma City Thunders future super interesting team over the off season. I brought on Olivia Punchall from Daily Thunder. She is a senior writer there. She's also co host of the cross Bolts podcast over there. Follow her on Twitter at Olivia Punchall. That's pah a l. I won't try to waste any more of your time. Let's get to this. Just a quick reminder, though, to rate, review, and subscribe to Hardwood Knox. Wherever you're getting your podcasts, even if you're not using iTunes, though, head over there, search us, throw us that firestar rating, throw us a five star review. We are committed to continuing rolling out the content and appreciate every single rating and commenter and subscriber who downloads every episode that we get. So without further delay, let's get to talking about first the Warriors, then the Nuggets, and then the Oklahoma City Thunder. Sam, thank you so much for coming on to talk some Warriors with me today. How are you doing good? I'm watching the Raiders and the Jets. My mood may change in the middle of this podcast, depending how the game ends. Excure me. Heads up? Are they still losing? I did not look at the score since I tweeted about it when they were losing the raised twenty four twenty one Raiders, But it looks like the Jets. Let's just say it's getting it's getting spicy. That the Jets might get their first win. You felt like it was gonna come. You never want to be the team that's giving them giving them the win though, especially not when you're a team, oh when they just took the lead, and especially not when you're a team who's six and five and in the playoff time, right, I didn't know we're I thought for some reason, I thought you were a Niners fan, not even a Raiders fan. I'm I'm fluid at this point. The Raiders were the team I preferred growing up, but they've since moved right, So if they're not going to be if they're not going to be loyal to me, I don't feel like I need to be loyal to them. You know, we'll get a little into a little Niners, but they still have a little of a soft spot for me. Warriors, though, is the team that we are going to talk about today. I guess to just start here. What were your general impressions of the offseason? Just like the Clay injury. Obviously that's just devastating, like that absolutely sucks, but everything else they did, like how did you feel, you know, want to make or baysmore. They have Wiseman where you shocked at all that they ended up using the TP Did you think that. Do you think that Clay's injury was like the impetus behind them using that or was that always going to be the play? Just kind of nut showing what your impressions were. Okay, well, we're still not over the Clay injury over here. It's just such a gut punch to me. I think they had a realistic shot to win the title with Clay's return. I wouldn't pick him as the favorite, but Vegas had him third or fourth most of the offseason, and I just look at everything they did in context of man if they had clayback. I don't know if this team can beat the Lakers, but I like their chances to be one of the best contenders to compete with them. So it's really hard to separate those two, especially when you see someone like Marcus s al and Air and Baines signed to other teams. I'm one hundred percent positive marcusol would have signed with the Warriors if they had Clay. There's a lot of reasons he was interested, Namely, the system fits his skill set better than any team in the NBA, you know, considering his passing, its defense, all the things he does. But kind of when Clay goes down, the Warriors are no longer contender. They could be a fun team, maybe make noise in the playoffs, but you know, for they're no longer going to be chasing the kind of Vets who are looking to get a ring category. So long story short, everything goes back to the Clay thing for me. With that, sen I guess I'm gonna make this really long. They did rebound better than expected in my opinion, they at least have an interesting team. It's Steph Curry and like eighteen dudes with seven plus foot wingspans and athleticism. So while like they're flawed players, like we don't need to or maybe we will go into it, like Andrew Wiggins certainly hasn't looked up to the number one pick Kelly you bray fun player, but you know, you know he's he's not an All star or anything like that, like they it creates kind of it's kind of an interesting dynamic. I guess on the Clay injury really quick, like and I remember listening to the Pope. You guys didn't you get a doctor on to talk about it? Right? What is like? I wat and I was just I was cutting up video for a Twitter accunt of his sixty point performance. It was just the anniversary of that four years, and I'm watching an offense and it feels like he should still be able to do a lot of the same things, because it's not like maybe he's not cutting as quickly, but like he's not so reliant on burst and athleticism, and so is there like more optimism that he can be something similar to the player that he was or is it just like, you know, it's been the acl and the Achilles at this point, we can't expect anything close to that when he does actually return. My excuse me, My two thoughts are one. I think his days of competing for all NBA defensive teams are gone. So a huge part of Clay's value is not just the shooting. Duncan Robinson is an amazing shooter. He might shoot the ball as well as Clay, but he can't guard the best wing on the other team, you know, like JJ Reddicks an amazing shooter. He can't do that stuff. So like part of Clay's value is the fact that he's like one of the five or six best wing defenders and he can shoot the ball like that, So that's one thing. The second thing, my bigger concern is minutes. Clay it kind of an iron man of the team, and he pretty much always led the team in minutes per game. He was never a guy who really tired out and needed rest. You know. Steth has had his history with nagging injuries and Draymond to a degree too, and Clay has always been the guy. It's like thirty five forty minutes, will run a marathon in circles right off of screens and guard the opposing players, best primeter player and be fine, like never it's tired, none of that stuff. Now I'm wondering if he'll ever be able to play thirty minutes a game again, I think it's much more realistic that he has, let's just say, a similar impact to what he was pre injury, but he has to be like a twenty minute per game off the bench kind of guy. Kind of like not the same player, but it felt like he retained a lot of his value in smaller bursts since his Achilles injury. Was Wesley Matthews is the guy that brings the mind for me, Yeah, exactly. Wesley Matthews played in the mid twenties minutes per game. If Clay can do what Clay is known to do for twenty five minutes a game, that's great, But that's also kind of not an All Star and not like the player we thought, you know the player he was prior. So it kind of recalibrates if the Warriors are going to contend again before Steph Devily retires with this cast, they need to find more talent because Clay can no longer be counted on to be that second option guy. And I don't know if I would say a second opect guy, but can James Wiseman be that infusion of talent? I think from you and Andy and light Year's Pod where I gathered like that was the pick you would have made if you were the Warriors, even with LaMelo on the board? Am I correct? Or would you have taken LaMelo? I would not have taken LaMelo, But there were some players a little farther down I was intrigued by, but I wouldn't have taken them at two. It was just so obvious that those Edwards, Wiseman, and Lamello were going one, two, three, that it would have almost been a waste of the number two to like reach for Isaac Acoro or something like that. Like I wouldn't have I would have been in favor of them maybe trading down. But with that said, I'm fine with the Wiseman pick, and he's certainly intriguing. He's a mystery to me. It's really the best way to put it. Like the physical skills, you know, jump off the page. But like and I've seen you know, open run footage and stuff like that, but it's like he played three games a year ago. You know, no one's like what going to really take from Instagram videos of his workouts, It's like, oh wow, he's really athletics. So was he on vessel right? I don't know why I went there, but is so? Do you think he gets a lot of rope in his rookie year with the Warriors to where they're actually going to lean on him? Or do you think if Kavan Looney's actually healthy, they seem to like Marky's Chris there. I guess you can always go to Draymond at the five line ups if you want to, and maybe they sign another big at some point, like is Dayne Deadman just inevitably going to be a warrior, So is there a chance that he's brought along more gradually or they really going to try and baptism baptize him by fire here. So Steve Kerr has tried to temper expectations and kind of say, you know, like we we think he has a chance to be amazing and blah blah blah, but like, don't expect too much too soon. So he's trying to slow play him. And honestly, I think that's all right. Move he's nineteen, he didn't play last year. You know, what's the worst that can come from slow playing him? He plays out of his mind and he ramp up his minutes right Like there's a real concerted effort to kind of temper expectations because they want him to be a key piece for a long period of time, not like put all the pressure of the world on him. So he you know, busts, so to say, because everyone expects him to be David Robinson or something, and it's like very clear he's not, you know. And so I do think there's a slow play aspect. I do agree with you. Looney is probably the guy that they would go to in key minutes. First good opponents if he's fully healthy. There's a trust factor there. And yeah, they do love Marquis Chris. They think they found something with him. They think they got him at the right time. There's a lot of you know, Phoenix picks him in the lottery, it didn't work out. He nearly crashed out of the league, and you know, he ends up on the Words only at age twenty two, and they're you know, he's not a lost cause you can do some good things. I'm curious to see if he's improved on defense. It's I know he's working on it. The whole shutdown, I don't know how that translates, like individual defensive work to games. So so the two notes for me is one, it's weird about the Warriors center rotation right now, and maybe surprised me a little bit that they didn't like get like I'm sure Mark Saw was on their radar, but once you know it's clear not getting him, I thought maybe they would get someone else. Is they don't have any centers that have played like higher volume rolls, like even a healthy Kavansvity is never averaged twenty minutes a game. And then with Wiseman, it feels like to me just the way the NBA is going that the key for him will be like the development of his shooting. Like his release point right now is high, which is good, but can he get and I think it was Andy doesn't It doesn't go in, but can it get it off quicker too? To where it's like Andy made this comp to Jaren Jackson Junior, and I see a lot the way they both score within the flow, inside the arc and their ball skills and bass I get it like Jarreen Jackson Jr. Has a lower release, but he gets it off like so quick, and so if you can quicken that, it feels like that might be the best path. If he's actually shooting gives you functional shooting anyway, like that might be his best path to being a really impactful player for this team. I'm gonna need to see his shooting against NBA defenses, but I'm not convinced he needs to speed up his shot because he's seven to one like he is, and he's got a seven seven wings. But I mean he's he physically is comparable to Rudy Cobert. I don't think Rudy Gobert is issued with shooting because he can't get the you know, like being contested at the peak of it. It's just that he can't shoot the ball right and you know, but no one's asking him too, so I'm curious if Wiseman how that shot comes around. I'm actually, for me, the swing skill with him is going to be if he can eventually switch on defense. I think it's fairly I think it's likely he'll be a good rim protector. Has all the athleticism in length in the world. He's shown ability to you know, play and drop coverage and get test shots at the rim. The Warriors also, probably the thing they've done best developmentally has been big men really defensively. They've always kind of figured out how to make guys good in a scheme and that sort of thing. So I feel pretty confident he can be a whole develop into being a good rim protector. I'm not saying it's gonna be great or anything, but like, you know, a starting caliber rim protector. For me, it's the if he can't switch, if he's one of those guys who just can only play and drop coverage, you run into issues where you're kind of not playing it at the end of games and there's just you know, he runs into kind of the same issue as like Andrew Bogan and like a lot of these centers the Warriors had over the years are like they're very useful, but like in specific matchups, you're you're pulling them off of the court. Twenty has already be shaped how we work and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenged to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical. Well. Indeed is here to help. Unlike other sites, Indeed gives you full control and payment flexibility over your hiring. You only pay for what you need. You can pause your account at any time, and there are no long term contracts. 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Like's, what are realistic expectations for him, because it's not even just a matter of like, Okay, he can fit on offense and we'll deal with his defensive problems now that you don't have Clay like he's like and Kelly Ubery is there as well, but like Kellyubra's not really that great a defender either. It just seems like Andrew Wikins is also some mission critical to what they do defensively, which is just terrifying to me. The yeah, the idea of them as defenders is better than the actuality. At this point, he was the player, I mean, the Clay. I keep going back to the Clay thing, but like, I was excited to see him play with Steph and Clay because I don't think he was he'll ever get a better role than that in the NBA, Like, in terms of covering up some of his deficiencies as a player and maybe the potential to maximize what he does do well. So losing Clay hurts. I actually am not as concerned about his defense as I am about his offense. He played really well defensively for the Warriors last year. Really small sample, but the combination of Draymond and the coaching staff kind of on him got him to defend with consistency in a way that you know, we didn't see very often in Minnesota. It's not like he couldn't defend in Minnesota. The issue was always kind of like taking possessions off, checking out of games, that sort of thing. But like in terms of what he felt engaged in wanting to defend, he was, again not saying amazing, but like above average. He knew how to at least use his athleticism, length and stuff to make things difficult. So all the Warriors have been talking about is how they need to be a top ten defense. It's putting a lot of pressure on Draymond, but their their entire philosophy is basically, if we can defend and force turnovers and get out and run, we can be probably we can probably a playoff team. If we can do those two things. The half court's going to be a work in progress because there's no one who can shoot the ball with any sort of consistency outside of Steph Curry, right, So their big thing is it's in some ways it feels like a Don Nelson team where it's like we're going to use our athleticism and wingspan to try to cause havoc and get out and run and kind of punt. The fact that you know, it's it's not twenty eighteen where they can do like a bazillion different creative things in the half court because they have all the talent in the world. Do you like Wiggins is fit with this team better than ubres who I think overall, I don't feel like he's not as strong as Wiggins, especially those Swoll pictures I guess we're getting on Twitter lately. But his length, like he's been and I don't think he's a good ventnor, but he's more disruptive with his length. Yeah, any shot better on look small sample for Wiggins, but thirty one and didn't play barely right with Steph thirty one point seven percent on catching shoot threes. Kelly Ubrige Junior was closer to thirty five percent. Both of those are like horrific numbers relative to catch and shoot threes, and maybe they're shot quality is up. And I'm just wondering of the two, like who are you just higher on fitwise for this this roster. You know, I go back and forth on this one. I'm kind of they're kind of opposites in the sense of ones in extreme extrovert. Like Kelly Ubre is already a fan favorite because he just cannot, like stop saying the perfect things that fans want to hear in front of the camera at all times. He's just he's very outgoing and constantly talking about how hard they're gonna play and all that sort of stuff, so fans love him. Andrew Wiggins is just an introverted guy like comes across really nice, but like you know, if he didn't have to do an interview, he never would is the imperson I get. And then like as players, Steve Kurr did mention he thinks he's going to use Kelly Ubre on ball defensively. More so, there's this there's this idea that like Kelly bra is very aggressive, like he's high energy, high motor, but maybe can get lost if you're asking to do too much. So it's a it's a better situation if you're just like I just want you to guard, you know whatever the point guards just just follow him around, you know, like just mirror him. Don't even think about switching and doing you know, dealing with cutters on the week side or stuff like that, which takes like a lot more awareness. It's a little more complicated. So I think there's going to be some of that with Dubrand, whereas I think they're really trying to challenge Wiggins to take on a more cerebral role and we'll see if that works. But I give it between the two, it does make sense in Wiggins's defense, and I don't ever defend Andrew Wiggins, just so you know, but like having a consistent coach and culture at this point, like even if you don't necessarily like Steve Kerr, they just they churned through approaches and coaches and directions and players, and during his time in Minnesota and maybe just being with the Warriors, now, where's the same environment for you know, another season, like after having a partial season there, like maybe that ends up helping, particularly like you said, if he was that much better on defense for them at the tail end of the year. Yeah, and I mean that's for me, everything with the Warriors a gamble on their culture. You know, Andrew Wiggins is played through the first five years that via career is what it is, mostly disappointing flashes of you know, some real talent, but like, more often than not, you kind of see a player who looks like they're going through the motions and not very interested. The Warriors seem to believe that in their culture, with their coaching staff, with their leadership. You know, he's never played with someone like Steph Currier or Draymond Green. Yeah, maybe Jimmy Butler and Draymond have some similarities cut up in terms of their mentality. But yeah, I mean there's this there's a belief that they can get the most out of him. I could see it. I just don't know what most out of him means. You know you mentioned Draymond is it like if you had to it feels like there might be more pressure. I know, people probably gravitate towards Deeph because they're like, oh, can he uplift his team in YadA YadA YadA, Like that's like a discourse. I just try not even acknowledge, but it feels like after the year that Draymond had, he might have more pressure on him than anyone else like on the roster right now, because it feels like we're also I'm wondering, was last year really his I just don't give a fuck, like gap year or is it a sign of actual regression? And do you have like a take one way or the other on that? Again, the Warriors would tell you all that time off did wonder for those players because of how many games they played over the previous five years and the toll that takes on every human not named Lebron James. So who apparently you know, general biology doesn't apply to him, but whatever, When you can spend seven figures a year on preserving your body, I think that probably helps a little bit too. It does, but yeah, so so I don't know. I want to see him is basically when it comes down before me, Like he did have a few throwback games last year, like Christmas Davis the Rockets is probably the only one anyone outside of like the Bay Area would remember. I was exactly when I said, like, with the exception of a few that was like the exact game. I think that was also the most he scored, like twenty two or twenty five points. I don't think he got over twenty in a single game the rest of the season. Like in general, he's not a score but yeah, he did look like old Drake, you know, like peak Draymond Green in that specific game. So it is in there. But I'm curious what this layoff did for him because he was the one who was the most banged up. Like, well, okay, I'll take it back. Technically Clay was the most banged up with the porn, right, yeah, but uh, but Draymond over the previous few years because he played a big man role. I mean it was it wasn't just one thing. It was lower back, shoulder, knees, all of them just ailing. He would he would say a lot out of that led to a shot falling off, but you could just see it when he played too a lot of like I'm not going to physically apply myself until the end of the game because I don't want to beat up my back anymore than a half all years, So I'm just curious what he looks like. He he barely played last year and he hasn't really played in nine months at this point, so we should see something that, you know, kind of looks like the player that you know, the player that got famous and made the All Star team. But we'll see. I think what he probably has going for him is, I don't know why he feels like he's older than he is, but he's thirty. Like that's not ancient. And then the other the other thing was, and you know, I don't know how much stock people place in this, but in his twenty five hundred plus possession sample size, the Warriors were like a league average defense with him on the court still last year, and their transition defense was fantastic. And so if that's like a banged up, disengaged Draymond, like, you have to think that I don't actually know what the defensive ceiling of this team is given the rest of the US now, but you have to at least, I would think, feel semi confident as long as he's healthy, he should be able to have like a pretty huge impact on their defensive performance specifically. Yeah, actually, you bring up an interesting point. I made this on on my podcast, But the defense once they got Wiggins again, we're talking twelve to fifteen games when there's Wiggins and Draymond on the floor at the same time, it was really good. Now, I highly doubt Portland, Miami, the Lakers, the teams that are playing, we're giving you their A plus effort at that point in the season. Like they knew the Warriors was an easy win at that point, but they looked night and day different. He definitely did not like D'Angelo Russell because of defense, and a lot of that just frustrated Draymond. If you go back and watch a January game against the Nuggets, it was on TNT. The Warriors were about to win that game and then the Nuggets came back late to win it. You can see Draymond just flipping out at d O because, like it was the fourth quarter of the Warriors had the lead and all they need to do is get a few stops, and he was playing with pickup pick up basketball, lackadaisical energy on defense, and he's just Draymond just letting him here it like, dude, I need you to play defense for two minutes. What's wrong with you? Like that's sort of like fifteen billion profanity whatever in the middle there. So that's kind of why there's belief that Wiggins could work because at least he'll follow someone like Draymond's lead and play defense, or at least that's the hope. And yeah, to your point, even though he had a terrible season, they were competent on defense with him on the floor, and that's with largely G leaguers around him, and they were disgusting when he was off the floor. So I mean, he still is one of the best defensive anchors in the NBA, even if it doesn't show up in the highlight plays the way it used to when he was younger. Yeah, I didn't even think to look at that, and it was a sub two hundred possessions sample size, but Draymond and Wiggins on the court, Warriors defensive rating in the eighty second percentile, which is ridiculously good, and the defensive rebounding during those minutes was surprisingly incredible. So I guess that's something to look toward. Who's the though, like looking at last year's roster, who's like the non Markie holdover, like, you know, not Draymond, not Andrew Wiggins that you're just most interested in seeing with this team or think that can actually make an impact to what's a better team, because I think it's fun to talk about, you know, Eric Paschal or markis Chris, Like, oh, they showed some stuff, but like the Warriors were just terrible last year, and so how do you how does that translate to a team that has tempered expectations now but actual expectations. I guess I'm most curious for Jordan Poole. Jordan Pool came on at the end of last year. Again, players playing well on you know, garbage teams at the end of the season is never really like the you always want to be careful with that sort of stuff, right right, But I feel like because he played a lot better when they moved him to point guard, and if he can play well as kind of a heat check guy, because that's what he is off the bench behind Steph, that could really help this team because this team is lacking shooting and kind of shock creation and he's the most likely source of it off of the bench. Brad Wanamaker is a solid veteran. That's not his game, right right. Ket Baysmore another very solid veteran. Not the guy who's gonna, you know, pull up off a high pick and roll. From twenty seven feet not his game. So I think he's the most interesting because he can really help them and kind of solidify their their bench units. When I'm looking at this Warriors team right now, I'm like, this team will probably play winning basketball and steps on the floor and when he's off the floor, they will just be bleeding leads. It'll be like one of those like like twenty seventeen MVP Westbrook type of seas where it's like, well, when they're on he was on the floor there anytime he sat, but like point plus minus differential is like twenty the other in direction type of thing. So if someone like Jordan Poole, and I'm not saying he will, if he can be kind of that like six man type, that can go a long way in making the team better. So most curious to see him. He did. I had looked up like in anticipation of this pod. He shot over sixty percent on off the dribble two point jumpers after the All Star break, so sub tank game sample size, but like, yes, to have that level of shot creation there, I don't I think I would agree with you were like, I don't know who else. It's like, who else is it? Aside from in Theory Wiggins and Stephen Curry who can generate their own shots on this team, Like Eric Pascal also was probably the talk of a season for them last year. He he had a really good rookie year. He made the Rookie First Team and he's kind of a you know, combo ard who wants to just like Iso in the midpost and get to the rim, and so he could do some of that stuff, but like, it's not the same as having a guard who can come off the high pick and roll behind the three point line, right, So I think I also kind of think Pascal will probably be the same player was last year, So it's not so much taking a step as much as his role is gonna get He's gonna do the same thing just in twenty minutes a game it's thirty five. He seems like the player that might be I guess it would be him or Jordan Pool, but that might be most important during the however many minutes per game that ends up being where you don't have Steph or Drey on the court. Like, just knowing that you can have like Pascal in the post is just a huge option because there's just so little shock creation on this team outside of their main guys, and that's that's what it's gonna be. So that's why I was kind of curious about Jordan Pool because Pascal will be able to do something. He already showed he could do that stuff last year and he'll continue to do it this year. But if they could get a guard kind of the player who sets up the play to be able to put pressure on her defense, I don't go a long way because we know we know Steph will do that when he's on the floor, but when Steph's off the floor, it's I don't know what's going to happen. Really, is there any chance, because like Minnesota tried this at the beginning of last season, which feels like a decade ago, that they try to put him in that role where you're seeing him with a lot of minutes independent of Steph and Draymond and maybe he's running maybe you know, I don't know how much of this will be part of the Warrior's identity now. But if you're just having Andrew Riggins, what excuse me run picking rolls because it seemed to work out for a time in Minnesota, at least of the beginning of last year, you saying the second part one more time? Is there like a chance where maybe I don't know how much of this will be part of the Warrior's identity, but is there a chance we see maybe Wiggins in those no Draymond, no Curry minutes? Again, however short they are, Oh definitely yeah, either Wiggins or Ubre. They are both twenty point per game scores. Whether they should be he's a different question. But like, they're guys who can generate some offense, right I would. Kurt has said he's going to start both of them. I just don't think the team has enough talent for him to like be able to be super cute by putting one of his players off the bench as like a six man. But he's planning to start both of them. But I would be shocked if there wasn't a stagger to have at least one of them with the bench unit, be at Wiggins or Ubre, He's gonna he's gonna experiment with both. I don't know which way is the better way to go, to be honest. So that and this is probably too early, like I think even five games into the season for this specific team, he's thrilling to ask this question, but how do you sort of see the row the rotation shaking out if we assume I'm assuming the starting five is gonna be Ubrey Wiggins, Steph Draymond, and then Big to be named soon. I guess like, yeah, I mean, and Steve Kirk confirmed that he's gonna at minimum try those four and then if he finds out like man, it's just it makes more sense to have Ubre come off the bench as like a super jolt of energy for rotations. Maybe he makes that change, but he's planning to start with, you know, the four you mentioned, plus center eighty names later. They're they're going to start camp tomorrow, so I think we'll get a better idea then. I actually think they'll probably start Marquise Chris. It appears that I don't know the words, that two players test positive for COVID. Pretty reasonable chance that Wiseman's one of them because he's the only player who hasn't had media availability in the first week. Yeah, that's pretty evident who these players probably are when there We will know by tomorrow one day. Even with that said, I think her really wants to protect him, like the last thing he wants to do is have him opening night, you know, like checking Kevin Durant and then y honest the following game and then like Anthony Davis, Like that's just setting the kid up for a little failure, right, particularly considering he didn't get Summer League and this this kind of I didn't really think about this till a week ago. He was drafted the eighteenth of November. The season starts a twenty second in December, like, and they haven't even had an official team practice yet. Like it's just it's it's unfair to expect rookies to His last actual game was over a year ago. Exactly. If the Warriors were not interested in making the playoffs and like wanted to rack up losses, they would probably start Wiseman and be like developmental year, right, But that's not what they're that's not what they're thinking. As long as Stephan is healthy, so I think they'll probably start with Marquis Chris Loody will probably be the guy who closes, and Wiseman will get minutes in between. It'll be like the standard weird thing the Warriors have done in the past, where you're like they'd play three or four centers fifteen Ishmut's a game and I think on the on the wings, obviously Baysmore is going to get a lot of minutes just because he's a reliable that you know what you're getting from him. You know, he'll defend, force turnovers and kind of play within the flow of the offense. And Wannamaker kind of a similar concept with the guard position. Pascal will play behind Draymond and then it's going to be interesting to see, you know, will Jordan Pool established himself as like a sixth man scorer that they need? Will it be Damian Lee? You know, the coaching staff loves Damian Lee. He was again fine as a kind of a backup ard with energy and everything. Like they were asking him to be like the second leading score by middle of the season, which is probably too much for Damian Lee. But if you're talking about the ninth man, it's not so bad, right, right, So do you get when you're looking at like to how the top of that restation is going to shake out? Like, yes, they're steph, so technic spacing doesn't matter, But are you like at all concerned to the point where like maybe the Warriors should try playing not to start, but like you know Steph and Brad Wanamaker in the back court, feels like it can make a ton of sense for some stretches. Because Wannamaker shot almost fifty percent on catching shoot threes last year in Boston. He might be the second best shooter on the team, which is terrifying notions. Yeah, I mean it kind of speaks to I was playing with the numbers. If Steph takes twelve threees a game and it hits over forty percent, which he probably will in both cases, and the rest of the team shoots thirty three percent and they take let's just say thirty five a game, which is league average, they come out to league average three point percentage even with Steph hitting an absurd volume of threes. So that kind of speaks to I think they need someone on this team has to have that, you know, that year where they shoot thirty eight percent from three, you know the thirty three thirty four percent shooter who just gets really hot, Like maybe it's Kelly Bray, right, yeah, because it could be one of those dudes that they're maybe it's Eric Pascal they're banking on. They have a bunch of hyper athletic guys who profile is low thirty percent three point shooters. They need one of them to you know, not not be Klay Thompson because that just won't happen, but like be someone who can hit, catch and shoots at a at a pretty consistent click. So let's say they're in a game that matters, it's crunch time. Is the lineup in those minutes the same is what you're anticipating it to be as the starting five, where it's basically those four players plus Chris in the middle, or do you see them playing with that a little bit more? I think they'll play with it. I could see because of Ubre and Wiggins size, they could put Pascal in there and go with the small ball lineup. You'd literally have staff and four dudes who are six seven with seven plus wigs fans. So I mean they'd like to do it in the past. The talent level is slightly different than you know, Andrea Doll, Clay Thompson, Kevin Durant, but it's a little different. But conceptually they could do that. Particularly if you have a bunch of size on the wings, you can get away with maybe a little less size and side. They could also go with Looney. They know, Looney Luny's the best defensive big they have outside of Draymond, so they could go that route. I think they'll play with it, to be honest. They could even go hyper small. They could put Uber at the four, and they could put a Wanna Maker in there and go with like Steff wanna Maker, Wiggins, Uber Draymond. I actually I think I will see them close with Draymond at center a lot because they can they can be extremely athletic and fast. Yeah, I mean he barely played there last year. Obviously the circumstances didn't call for it, but that still seems like their pathway to like having in so far as they can have a cheat code lineup like the Draymond and the five still feels like their path there. It's good. It's gonna be a pain for opposing teams because the pace when they go Draymond at five is fastest in the NBA, and they should be able to take, you know, take advantage of the athleticism. It doesn't change the shooting flaws they have, and like some of the other flaws they'll probably have on defense because you know, even if those guys are hyper athletic, they're not Andre Goo Dollar Klay Thompson, but what I was gonna what I was gonna throw in there is Yeah. The other reason they didn't use Draymon at five much last year was wear and tear. It's like, look, we're not making the playoffs. Do we really need to destroy his body in a lost gear too? And like they've always seemed like a little reticent even during like their dynasty hey Day, to like put in there for too much during the regular season. I think Steve Kerr hates versatility. Sorry, you know he loves versatility. I think he's I think he's always found it. He believes it's more effective and small doses to catch teams off guard. Like he would be someone who took real like I don't want to say joy, but like validation out of how the Rockets just got utterly destroyed by the Lakers by going all in on small ball. He's like he would be someone who says, hey, Pj's excellent as a small ball center, but if you're going to try to use him for forty eight minutes, you're gonna wear him down. And someone like Anthony Davis is gonna figure that out. So I think what happened to the Rockets validates curves perspective, which is, we want to use this for quick punches, and maybe we extend it in specific matchups, but in general, I don't want Draymon guarding fives for forty minutes a game because he'll just start becoming less effective. His body will break down. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at bet online. Bet Online is going the extra mile to make sure you can get in on every possible chance to win this season. From game spreads and totals to team player and coaching props. That Online gives you more options to wager on than anywhere else. 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I keep thinking, first off, they're leaning into the we Believe thing with the Oakland City Nights jerseys, which are basically a knockoff of the ones that like the Baron Davis We Believe team swore, they're kind of they're leaning into it because like, this team has a better chance of mirroring that team than mirroring the title teams in the past right right on the to tie into that, those teams were best known for going small and really causing havoc and being athletic and transition. So just any combination that can kind of get them really running and you know, just causing a bunch of turnovers could be a lot of fun to watch, because, like I said, if they get stuck playing half court basketball with Steph being trapped and like no one guarding Wiggins and Draymond behind the three point line and that stuff, it could get really ugly really quick. If they're like in a spot where maybe they're playing better than expected, like close to the trade deadline, or like they're very firmly entrenched in the you know, the top five race in the West. Could you see them making a significant move mid season because we know they're sitting on the assets the Minnesota pick they have James Wiseman still or is that something especially following Clay's injury, that if it actually happens, it is just far more likely to happen after this year, when they can sort of reevaluate where they're headed after actually getting this full season to look at. So two thoughts there, I think they are only they're they're oddly kind of like the Boston Celtics at this point with their like ability to compete for the playoffs, but also having like the other team's probable high lottery picks. They can play both ends of the spectrum. I'm thinking about like the Celtics teams with like Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley, where you're like, they're not a contender, but they're certainly good enough to make the playoffs, right, and you know, but like but but like those next picks were really what the fan base and excited about, and it, you know, turned out right because Jason Tatum is very good. But so I don't think they're interested in moving the Wolves pick unless it nets a young star. The Clay injury makes makes it even tougher for them to move it because I don't think there's belief that Clay will be an All Star when he comes back. I think there's hope that he'll be a good player at best. So they really can't move that Wolves pick unless they're netting kind of an impact guy who's younger. Like, they're not gonna move let's put this, they're not gonna move the net or sorry, I said nets pick. Wow, I'm totally messed up about they're not moving the Wolves pick for like Marcus Smart or Robert Covington, two excellent players who objectively help you win games, but like you only trade like a top ten pick for one of those guys if you really think that's gonna put you over the top. And is Robert Covington gonna make them win a title. No, he's gonna help them win a couple more games. Right, So there's it depends on I guess how you value the pick. But like, I don't think the timber is gonna be very good this year, so I don't know why you would trade, Like, yeah, there has to be other moving pieces, but I don't know why you would trade it for anything short of a star. I'm just curious if, like I'm not saying these guys would be gettable, but like if Bradley Beale or James Harden, let's say he promises to show up to practice, those are stars though, So, like you said, young stars, So I'm like, Bradley Beale is still young. I guess that's an easier called like James Harden is thirty one, thirty two. Yeah, it's like, is that a move you still make? I guess you kind of have to. But I'm like you mentioned it with the clayfing are you are they like more concerned now with sort of bridging it internally from this error to the next one, because of that Clay Thompson injury where it's like we actually need this infusion of youth to play the long games. We're just not completely baring. Yeah, so I guess I should I guess I should have meant that if you could get James Harden, you doing it because he's still a top five player, and you know, you should be able to build a title contender with Steph and James Harden. If you can't, that's kind of on you. It's not on like their talent, Like that's a that's a pretty damn good starting point. So so yeah, so, but but my point is on the Wolves, pick superstar or young star who may become a superstar are probably the only type of moves they're going to engage that pick with. If Clay was back, they may have been more interested in act in trying to acquire someone like a Marcus Smart, who's like the perfect role player for a contender, who's gonna you know, like in the same capacity that like Andre Dodala was, Right. Yeah, Mark Smarts also shot above forty percent on pull up threes last year, so he might have been one of the better shooters on this team. Looking at the roster, is it more? Is it like it's not that I didn't I didn't even write down a question about Steff because I feel like if it's if he's healthy, like he should just be this known quantity. He's a top five, top three player easily, and yet he still sort of has like this baggage of will Kenny really uplift a team that's suboptimal around him? And I think I'm not curious to see if he can, because I think all the evidence with the way he's uplifted stars, like drastically, just proves that he will. But is it wrong to be like, I don't know the way to phrase it, like morbidly curious about Steph like now getting another chance to run with the suboptimal supporting cassid he was supposed to have last year, just to not to just quiet doubters, but just to really see it because he's always been I don't know if marginalized is the right word, but there's always been like other shadows next to him because they've had all these games, so his games so different, like he can be the best player on the floor without not putching the ball. Yeah, And it's like it's I mean, I go back to the twenty fifteen finals are probably the best example of his game was so ahead of its time that they didn't know how to parse the finals MVP. And if you like, go back and look at it, like, okay, if you want to say Lebron was the Finals MVP, I can accept that because that's just a different argument. But to give it to Igodala, who basically just hit open shots that were generated because Steph was triple teamed, like go, go rewatch the footage Andrew Goodala has five seconds to kind of you know, set up his shot in the corner and he hit him and he was amazing on defense of course too, but like you know, it's that was all because of Steph, right, like Steph was drawing the double teams that the Calves were kind of the first team to really blitz him and kind of get the ball out of his hands and dare other people. So there's always been kind of a misunderstanding because especially because like when he gets hot, you know, it's it's one of the best shows you can see. So like him affecting the game by not making shots is a very indirect thing, right to your broader point, I just want to seem stay healthy. Like, my concerns with him are not that he can uplift this roster like he If you remember the twenty twelve thirteen Warriors upset Denver and push the Spurs to six games, right, everyone was like, oh, Jared Jack's so good for them, Jared Jack leaves never heard from again. You go watch it, all of a sudden, you start realizing it's like, well, yes, Jared Jack can hit a pull up jumper when everyone's paying attention to Steph, But like put him on a team where he has to kind of run the show, it's not quite the same thing. So I do think Steph is capable. I'm just curious he's thirty two. He's just at this point, there's no other way to parse it other and say, like, he picks up a lot of nagging injuries. And I don't know if this is encouraging or discouraging, but at least it doesn't feel like it's It seemed like way back when the ankles could be like this chronic issue, but now he's reached the Anthony Davis level where it's like, oh, it's a thigh, it's his right hand. Yeah, it could be his ankle, it's his MCL. So the fact that they're like not necessarily directly connected or though maybe some of them are, like, is that like more encouraging or is it just like it doesn't even matter because he's been like so banged up in all these different years. I don't think it matters. It's just like there's if you want to criticize Staff relative to the other top five or six players in the NBA, the criticism is his durability. It just is like I think he's a better player than James Harden in my opinion, but James Harden is a tank. He plays through everything. He you know, like you can pencil him in for seventy five games or basically like the co sit a couple of games here or there with something, but like he's gonna play the full season. He's gonna play heavy minutes. You don't have to worry about what stuff. It's he gets knocked and something's bruised up, and there's just there's a durability concern with him that's unique to him that I don't even think applies to Kauai. Kauai has all the load management stuff, and like it's worrisome for a different reason. But when he's on the floor, he's still a very physically imposing player because of his size and his strength and everything. And that's just a different thing with stuff. You know, he can get beat up, he can get kind of he can lose, you know, he can he can get hurt a lot easier than other guys. I guess, yeah, that makes sense. So looking at everything, and like, you can assume whatever you want if you think they're gonna lose games to injury, if you think there's a major move, like what's a realistic win total and Western Conference finish, And if you haven't given like thoughts to what the like wins are in a seventy two game season, I can I have a conversion thing set up really quickly for that if you want to do it over eighty two games. Well, so Vegas. The books I saw last have them at thirty six and a half, which is a little above five hundred, and had him at the eight seed. I don't think that's unfair. I think if they get good health, they could push to four. I think if they get bad health, they could also fall out of the playoffs. Right, there's very little margin for air with this team. If you could tell me STEP's gonna play seventy out of seventy two teams, I like their chances to push into that four to six range. If you tell me he's gonna miss ten games, now, I'm like they're kind of in a dog fight for the eight seed, you know, like that's kind of like and then if you tell me he's gonna miss twenty games, I'm like, yeah, let's just make it fifty and step for two top ten picks, you know that type of thing. So it really comes down to his durability for me. I do think they're going to start slow because Steph is an amazing shape right now. He's been working like he's ready to go. He hasn't played with any of these guys, and they're kind of putting a new roster together. You know, like how he played one game with Wiggins, He's played zero games with Ubrey. He played a game last time Baysmore was his team. It was like two presidential cycles ago. You know, Like there's just like a lot of moving pieces. So I would not be surprised if they got like destroyed on Christmas by the Bucks, who like will be a machine and like we know who the Bucks are, right, like, there's there's very like, Okay, they have to integrate Drew Holiday. That's one player they're integrating to a team who knows how to play with each other, right right, And so I would not be surprised if the Warriors started slow and then if they if they stay healthy, you know, fifteen games, you know, maybe they start six and eight and then they go on like a run where they win like twelve out of fifteen or something like that, you know those That's kind of how I see the season breaking out for them in a pot, if you know, if we're being optimistic, I think getting into the top four conversation is just a matter of for the When I look at them, I guess maybe I'm like so high on Steph and kind of confident that Draymond will come back. It feels like they could be a legitimate, like top four seed where that's not like their ceiling. Like may I could map out scenarios at anything in the West right now, because I don't think the Lakers or Clippers are going to care about what happens in the regular season. Really, it's like I could map out a path for the Warriors getting too, But it doesn't feel unrealistic to if you said Steph is healthy and whatever constitute that's it, is it playing sixty seven or seventy two whatever, if he's healthy and Draymond is close to Draymond, Like, it feels like he's healthy too, Right, It feels like top four is like a realistic projection. But they have a higher range of outcomes because their floor is technically lower than a lot of these other really good teams. Yeah, I mean, the reality of the matter is, you're not really concerned that Nicola Yokich is going to get hurt. You're not concerned that James Harden is going to get hurt. He might not be in Houston next week, but you know, like you're not con learned that Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert won't get hurt. And those teams, we know how good they are, Like there's a baseline that we know they can achieve, and they've they've proven a level of durability year in year out that like, you know, it's fair to question with the Warriors at this point, it's fair. You know, you can you can easily say, hey man, they just went to five straight finals. Give them a year off. You could also say they've played a lot of basketball and maybe we're reaching the point of their career where like expecting them to play ninety percent of games with a certain level of performance is just unrealistic. So I'm with you, they could go either. It feels like their range is broader, even though you know Utah, for example, is a Rudy Gobert Donovan Mitchell injury away from falling off too. Yeah, so it's like just a matter of every team or most teams are like that one injury away from plumbing, but the Warriors area worst case scenario feels just more likely. We've just seen that the Warriors key players actually go through that last year, and you know, the previous couple of years. So it's easier to like wrap our heads around, especially because I like it happened where it wasn't just one of them, where it was like Stephan KD at once and then it's KD and Clay, like you had superstars to spare, but like you ended up needing having those four superstars right right, just to put a ball on this, Is there anything that we didn't touch upon that you want to talk about? Something that's just undercovered about this team heading into the season. Not really, I just feel like I just want to see them healthy. That's really all I'm at with them. Like I think they will be a playoff team if they stay healthy, and I think they can be an actually a very fun team who people will really start paying attention to a mid season when they start making a little noise or something. So it really all comes down to health for them. Obviously I have my own personal biases here, but like I would like to see Steph kind of put together one more full year of health and just kind of remind everyone of how good he is and kind of how fun it is to have him in the mix in this league. You know, he's one of the three or four most exciting players to watch, and it's it's kind of a bummer when he's out injured or like we don't get to see him play the same way. It's like a bummer. You know, we didn't get to see Kad last year, or like Lebron missed most of the year before, or you know, insert any of those guys who kind of make you stop the channel anytime you're flipping through. There is if he's healthy and narrative is a big part of this, whether anyone likes it or not, sure there's like a stage set for him to get his third MVP award if he stays healthy, because people are gonna love the narrative of him uplifting this cast and not having Katie's not there this time and Clay is injured, So like, if he has like that full healthy season, that's a conversation where if you told me Steph played in sixty seven games this year, let's put or sixty five, I would say he finishes top three in MVP without question. I agree with you. I think that Vegas has Luca as the most likely, and I mean I would also say it feels like Lucas probably gonna win the MVP this year. It's just like next guy up. He no voter fatigue because Jannie is like, He's like, I can't imagine what Jannis can do this year to get a third straight one like average forty, Like Lebron will be fuming if you, honest gets a third straight Lebron. Lebron would have a case just based off of the legacy aspect. But I kind of agree with you. I don't think we're going to see the Lakers try until like postmoun Time's day. Yeah, it seems like Davis would be the more like, if there's gonna be one of the two to win, it would be Davis just because maybe he'll care or play more during the regular season at this point. Yeah. So I mean, here, you do bring up a good point. I do think Steph has a good shot up winning the MVP if he just stays healthy. He was this blew up in my face. He was my last season MVP pick, so it was before he got injured. I thought that was gonna be that type of season. So with you though, but just having him healthy, healthy Draymond and then just Kelly U Bridge Junior's existence, like, that's a recipe for watchability. So I'm hoping this team stays healthy as well as an impartial observer. Thank you so much for giving me an hour of your time, Sam, This was this was really great. I don't know if anyone's listening to this and doesn't listen to the light Ears pod or follow Sam on Twitter, you should remedy that immediately. He's at Sam E S F A N D I A R Y Sam as Fundiari. Again, thank you so much, and I'm sure down the line I will be bothering you again. Yeah, anytime. I mean hopefully you are, because that means that they've stayed healthy and they're relevant. I don't I feel like you're probably not going to get me on to discuss how Jordan Pool's leading him from the fifteen seed to the fourteen seed if everything goes wrong, Well, at that point, we'll just bring you on to talk about your twenty twenty one draft coverage because you'll be another expert in that draft class. Dude, it's a fun class. I'm actually it is a fun class. I you know what, I don't know too much about the prospects at this point. Like they've real all played like two to three games, so it's a lot of like projecting conjecture at this point. But it's like they all look like kids who grew up watching Steph Curry, James Harden, and Lebron James, because they're all kind of a hybrid of those players. They're all like they're all six six six seven, can do multiple things, and are all constantly trying to chuck it from thirty feet also, so it's just interesting because it's like the first generation of guys who I think grew up on like modern basketball, like what we've gotten used to over the last six years. So they're developing those skill sets, you know, ability to make a three, ability to run a pick and roll as a as a bigger wing, those type of things that like maybe players fifteen years ago, we're not doing, you know, when they were younger. I don't I only ever get shin deep in draft coverage, and I certainly like I can't watch live college basketball, and definitely will be the time of year. But like I told you, light years, while I was painful for you, became like a very good place to like stay in tune with the NBA draft through throughout the season. And all I know at this point is everyone thinks that like kay Cunningham is going to be like the super real deal in out of this draft. Clicks probably too ambitious with the Wolves pick, because if if you're getting Cunningham, is the Wolves kept it, But I think the Wolves are going to be in that conversation for like a bottom five to seven team, And so that's a really valuable pick for Golden State assuming they keep it. And this is one of those drafts where like someone said, there's ten guys in this draft who would go number one over Anthony Edwards. That feels like, you know, hyperbole, but but it might not be off. It's one of those drafts where like the guys who are going six, seven, eight are still interesting and like, we know you're not going to get ten all stars in the first ten picks, Like that's not how it works. But there are guys who are gonna be picked there who have like tools and look just interesting. Let's put it that way, as opposed to like other drafts or drafting, like can tedious call to a poke number eight and you're like, I hope the three do you win? You know? Yeah, but again, this was great. Thank you so much, Sam, and I'll be talking to you soon. Absolutely. De TJ. Welcome to your first appearance on the Hardwood Knocks podcast. It's taken way too long for me to bother you considering how long you have been a part of Blue ire Pods specifically. But how are you doing today? I'm good Man, Mandalorian was amazing, I have coffee in my hand and I'm on the right side of the dirt, so I'm gonna bet mood today. The right side of the dirt. That's a great way to give an update on how you're doing. My hot take is I am like Star Wars ignorant to the upteenth degree. I've seen the original seven like once each and that's just it. I didn't board like, I haven't seen the new ones. I haven't watched Mandalorian nothing. So what's funny is I was like you like the most casual I don't care about Star Wars individual. Look, yeah, the movies are fun. They were like fun Marvel movies, not a whole lot to it. Pandemic hit and I had nothing to do in Disney Plus and suddenly I love Clone Wars, I love Rebels. I'm like ordering books like I have become a Star Wars mega nerd. Oh wow, well, there's not a whole lot to do. There's a lot of sitting and staring at the television. So like, so I definitely fell into this whole Samurai western, crazy Star Wars universe that I am now a part of. So here I am. There are much worse ways you could be spending downtime in the pandemic. That is true, maybe by like living your life as if nothing's going on, which seems to be happening with increasing frequency, especially in the Midwest. Man, you're in New York, I'm sure you see it tube, but the Midwest got the whole like we're stronger than the coronavirus thing going on out here, and it is not my vibe. Yeah, I'm on like, yeah, I think people like I'm in the worst not the worst part, but I'm on Long Island in New York, so like there's a lot of that going on here because it's it's very red where I am. I think it's the best way to put it. That is a very clear way. I did bring on a talk Nuggets though. Their off season was more eventful than I thought it was gonna be, mostly because of Jeremy Grant. So I think the best place to start before getting a little bit more granular, was just looking at everything that happens, you know, them getting RJ. Hampton, losing Grant, they resigned millstaff. They have Jamichael Green, who is one of my Zach Low calls them siren songs. Ja Michael Green is a siren song of mine. What was your just general impression of the Nuggets off season, anything you really liked, Shocked by disliked I really you. My initial takeaway after learning how these things kind of played out over that week and a half of chaos of the off season, I felt bad for Denver. I know that's like a weird way to look at this, but they really really wanted to get on the Drew Holiday conversation and they were. They were one of the finalists for Drew Holiday until Milwaukee just came out and dropped everything they owned on the table. So, like all of a sudden, Robert Covington was not a guy you can pursue. Kelly Ubrey is not a guy you can pursue. You can't get involved in those trade conversations. Okay, let's pivot. Things happen. Sometimes guys are going to offer five first round picks for somebody and you just can't match the deal. So they move on to Jeremy Grant, who, again, every expectation from Jeremy Grant's camp, from the Nuggets camp was We're going to find a way to get a deal done. We were a Western Conference finals team. He was argued with the third most important player for our organization. We need to get Jeremy Grant back here. And Jeremy Grant seemed to want to. Then Troy Weaver called someone who had connections to who scouted him back at Dariat his Syracuse days, convinced him to come. And this is the part that's crazy to me. Despite Jeremy Grant's own agent advising him to stay in Denver, despite the same money still being offered by Denver, despite the Western Conference Finals one that they went on last season, despite all of that, Jeremy Grant wanted to bet on himself, and again that ruined Denver because operating as an above the cap team. Because Jeremy Grant signed for twenty million doesn't mean he does have twenty million to spend. All of a sudden, Denver only had their mid level, only had the biannual veteran minimums, so they had to pivot and find a way to make this work. So overall, watching the way it transpired, Denver did everything right and everything still went wrong, and that is just so deflating. I'm sure, after everything they accomplished this past season for it to go that way. So that was like my immediate reaction when I took a step back and looked at everything that had happened. Yeah, V and I listened to you listen to your podcast when you like did the crossover with the Pistons versus everyone pod and last Jackson. Yeah, he's He's awesome. I'll be pestering him soon in in case he's listening to this. I don't I respect the bet that Jeremy Grant made. I think it. I think it was dumb, and I listen to you like kind of justify on maybe he has more to offer as an offensive player tried. When you look at Detroit's roster just with the crimped spacing, I think it's going to be a disaster for him and I'll be shocked if he even, like continue to hit the same percentage of his catch and shoot threes that he did in Denver and his final season in Okay. See. Yeah, two things, they're playing alongside someone not named Nicola Yokich is very different than playing alongside Nicola yoki and he's about to learn that in a very very big way. The second thing is I agree with you. I am all four guys betting themselves, but this feels a whole lot more like being at the tables in Vegas and your buddy goes like all in on a terrible bet, and everyone's cheering anyway and excitement despite how terrible the bet is, Like that is very much so how this feels to me, like everyone in the Nuggets organization is like happy for Jeremy. They want Jeremy to get the best possible situation for him that he can get. They thought it was in Denver and still believe it is in Denver, but Jeremy didn't. And when guys make that decision, it's called free agency for a reason. And I'm happy he made his own decision. But this might nip him pretty quick. This might be a very tough decision. Like then Gordon said in that infamous interview, those were the worst years of my life being in Detroit and under If there's a sense of like this might not go very well, but I hope it does. Yeah, there's man they have. Let's assume Blake Griffin is healthy, and that's a that's kind of a leap in itself. They have maybe three above average shooters on this team with Blake Griffin. You have Fee. I wouldn't even throw Wayne Ellington in there anymore, just based off how he's been over the fake Like maybe it's fine. You have to right, that's like, that's the problem. Like the fact that we even have to include him in this conversation of spacing is damning. Yeah, and so I'll be interested to see how it plays out. I did see, and I think this is natural. Like once he left, there are people trying to downplay the departure where it's like, well, now they don't have that money committed to him, which, yeah, it's probably an overpay, like relative to what like someone who is just basically three and D. But when you're the Nuggets and you already have your top two players, when you just went to the Western Conference finals, when you've also taken like these cheaper gambles elsewhere, like if bowball hits Michael Porter Junior looks like he's going to hit, that's fine to pay Jeremy Grant. That money way more justifiable than the Pistons in my opinion. But they pointed to like the on off defensive splits for him, where Dever was so much worse. And it seems just for me a farm when you look at like a lot of the lineups he was in, it feels like those were detrimental to that. But I'm just wondering thank you. I'm wondering if overall, like what, how you would explain that it's like that the correct way to look at this, because I dug into the lineup and I was like, oh, this is this is a rough lineup. People forget like people just want to look and be like Wow. In the playoffs he was really good, but his numbers over the whole season are bad. There's so much more nuanced on off splits than that he was playing off the bench with a bench unit that had no idea what they were doing for the first couple months of this season, like they were an abject disaster on that end of the floor. And I'm sorry, your defensive numbers on a bench unit not guarding the elite players in the NBA when that's your skill set, is not going to be indicative of the kind of defender you are. So while I like to hope, as a nuggets point of view that those numbers are actually true, I don't buy into them at all. There's a lot of other factors that play into this. What I will say is that, yeah, the rebounding is a big issue. Is he really going to be able to create out the bounce because there were a lot of difficulties there in the playoffs. I actually believe it's possible, but you're eighteen months away with a lot of reps before he actually becomes that like Pascal Siakam archetype, not that level of player, but that archetype of player. So I don't know what this is going to look like. I hate that Detroit roster the way it's currently constructed, and I don't think it's going to do anything to make Jeremy Grant look good, but to at least give Troy Reaver some credit. Even if Jeremy Grant looks terrible and they get into the thirty year of this deal and they get to the Troy deadline, there are going to be a line of contenders who still want to try and trade for him. This is not thoroughly circumstances to where the completely negative asset for them to spike the contract, but there it's still very confusing. I've actually thought about that, because you know, he has like this it's I don't even know what it starts at. I forgot to look at it, but like so it's like twenty million annual on average. There will be like contenders that launt him and they are like a lot of kind of like sizeable expirings out there, Like it could even be this season where maybe it's not working out, like he doesn't he's just not playing well. De Troy's going nowhere, because that's that's just definitely where they're headed. They're not even if Blake Griffin's healthy. I don't know that I would pick them to make the playoffs or the play in So I could see like a scenario where he's like doesn't even finish this season with the Pistons. That would be wild. If they are able to flip him for like a first round pick, that would be actually like a very shrewd move overall, because there's a lot of contending teams if they can get the salary to match to where he is a legitimate upgrade for them going into the playoffs. So we'll have to see again. I think Troy Weaver has some idea of what he's doing. I don't think he's like, we're gonna have all bigs like I don't think that's like the vision of the Pistons, because all they have on their books in three years is Mason Plummey, Jeremy Grant and all of their picks. So that's fine, that's exactly what you want to do as a rebuilding team. It's just very confusing this year in a vacuum. Yeah, still I'm the Mason Plumley contract. Just I will defend that one. I did this on Laz's podcast. Please defend it. But I want to say where I'm coming from is like, if you're going to spend money on Plumly guarantee Julia Okafor's contract, I would rather spend me a little bit extra that it would have costed to have had Christian Wood. That's all. They obviously know more about him than me having had him all year. That's where I think it looks a lot worse. And I think if you look at other big man contracts and Mason Plumbley's defense, knowing what he could do as a passer, how he's just like his IQ for the game in the half court, seems like it's just it's really there. The salary isn't egregious, but for the Detroit roster. And then given the primary alternative though, that's where I think the huge miss was. And then yes in the moment when they still had Dwayne Deadman, when it looked like they had a Jillian Biggs Tony Bradley was on the roster. It also looked pretty damning. This is what I said on Pistons Whirst everybody. It is truly laughable, and it is worth all of the jokes that it has gotten for that contract from Mason Plumley. But when you look closer at it, he is the perfect big for all of their young guards and young guys on the roster, from Sadiq bad all the way through. He is the guy who will roll hard, set great screens, dive for fifty fifty balls, do whatever he can on defense to cover up for your rookie mistakes. Like I can't even count the number of times that Michael Porter Junior got obliterated on the perimeter and Mason plumbly appeared from nowhere to save him from looking like a complete lost puppy on defense. So those kinds of things are going to be hyper important to a Detroit Detroit Pistons roster who needs to start developing the right habits, and he's gonna do it all with the smile on his face. This is a guy who was a starter on a playoff team in Portland, came to back up Nicole Yokich, and he did everything he could to make that team the best version of themselves. So the Mason plumbly part like again in a vacuum everything else around it makes it look way funnier than the actual deal is. But I think that he is probably going to be looked at as the more productive contract than Jeremy Grant in the long run. That's I think that's fair, and he again will make a lot more sense on the roster when it looks like their bottom out because you want solid veterans who are willing to play on bad teams. So if you trade let's say Griffin's healthy and you move him, there's no way Derek Rowes finishes the season in the trips. They need to clear the runway for Killian Hayes. There another below average shooter at the moment. But yea, So having that presence there where I think, like, let's just look at Oklahoma City for a second. You don't I don't think George Hill and Al Horford are going to be particularly excited to be there if they have to finish the season there, and Horford probably has to to bring this back to the Nuggets, though, Grant is the type of player for them that seems like way more important in the playoffs because of how they're run into the conference finals and into the NBA Finals, like has to go? Who do those like bigger wing assignments now fall too? Like I look at the roster and look because even Tory Craig in that aspect is like, yeah, okay, he's gone. So now I don't even have like an easy default option because I think you can pretty easily make the case that Gary Harris is their best perimeter defender. Now he doesn't have like the size or the length to match up with the guys that Jeremy Grant and even Tory Craig we're going up against. They lost so of their four best defenders, Gary Harris, Jeremy Grant, Mason Plumly, Tory Craig, they lost three of them, and one of them has been more injured than he has not been going forward. So we have absolutely no idea with the defensive identity of this team with anymore none zero. This is why I have completely removed the Nuggets from the true contending tier in the NBA Western Conference, Like I just don't think that they're in that category anymore. They're in that Dallas, Phoenix, Portland, Utah grouping all of a sudden because they just don't have that ability to match up and you have to be able to match up with jumbo wings in this version of the NBA playoffs. So I have no idea, to be honest with you, there isn't a right answer. They're gonna hope Gary Harris can do it. They're gonna hope Michael portertonor takes the leave. Maybe Bull Bull is something. Maybe PJ. Dojer Cars at a role, but there it's not enough. They don't have enough current big perimeter defenders who can be a three Indi big, Like that's become a hyper fascinating role in the NBA, these three Indi bigs who defend all over the and are willing to do whatever it takes and fill in all those gaps. They don't have that, And there's like six dudes who can fill that role in the NBA. So maybe ze Nagi is already more prepared than we thought. But like that's really where Denver is at. They don't even have the the idea of the players like between six seven and six nine, Like they just don't even have those guys like Martin is their only backup small forward, Like that's where they're at in terms of the wing situation. Now. This is not to give people a reason not to listen to this podcast, but like I feel like talking about Nikola Yokich gets boring because he's so known, Like he's an entertaining player. But what are we debating about Nikola Yokich anymore? There's something to right. It seems like what could make this team at least the level of threat it became last year and full disclosure, I and it was publicized. I got so much shit for it. I picked the Nuggets to win the title this past year before the season's nine. It looked a lot better when they made it to the Western Conference Finals, but that's a pick that I did not stick with as the year went on. But for them to be at that like same like get into the Western Conference finals conversation, it feels like the clear I know people might focus on Michael Porter Junior or Gary Harris like having an offensive conscience for the entire season, but it feels like it's Jamal Murray. If he is the like he's not going to be There's no way he's gonna score like he did in the bubble at points. But if he's like kind of had the breakthrough to hey, he's an actual star now, like the top twenty five to thirty five guy, that might be their path back to being I would say at least as dangerous in the regular season. I still don't know about the playoffs, just because the defensive matchups will matter there. But what are you going into the season like looking at from Jamal Murray or expecting or just wondering about. There's just one word, and this has been the word about three years, consistency. Can you do what you did in the bubble? Can you do it in November when it's cold in Minnesota? Like? Can these things become something that you can rely on? Can you know you're gonna get eighteen four and four every single night from Jamal? Right now, that is still a question to be solved. We have no idea. We saw him do what he did in the bubble, which was out of this world. Like I had no idea that Jamal Murray would not only become Michael Jordan level score but be defending like he did right bodying dudes in the pick and roll and creating passing angles to be finishing at the rim the way he did, Like all of those leaks were way more important to me than the scoring because he got hot, like everybody got hot in that bubble. There wasn't a soul who shot worse than the bubble compared to the regular season. So I'm trying to remove the scoring aspects to a degree. There was no fans, endless sight lines. It was amazing for a shooter. But the defense, the playmaking, the added strength from the hiatus, those are things that are absolutely going to go forward and actually help the Nuggets, But I don't think that's what you need to be able to get to that next level in the playoffs. He doesn't fix the biggest issues the Nuggets now have. And the only way you can fix the biggest issue that they now have is to find a player outside of your roster who can do it. And unless Michael Porter Junior takes a leap that literally nobody sees coming, including the Nuggets organization, which will not put that pressure on him, they're not gonna be like Michael Porter Junior, we needed to be third team All Defense, Like you can't do that, You know what, I mean, but you need that kind of caliber of player at that position to be able to contend in the Western Conference finals right now. So I don't think that Jamal Murray will hurt them. I think he will get better, and I think that they could actually potentially win more regular season games, but I don't think that it's going to translate to playoffs success. There's I guess the playment where scoring could really if he's more consistent, like as an off the bounce scorer in crunch time where Nicole Yokis has been like one of the best crunch time players for two or three years now to now have Murray on top of that. If there's a lot of consistency there, I think what's still the memory that typifies his entire career art to me is that was it twenty eight the Spurs series? Was that two nineteen two and eighteen w whatever that was where he like he won them two games but like lost them one and a half games. Like that was the That was the Jamal Murray experience to me, in a nutshell, yes, man, I will never forget that game too. He was like, oh of thirteen or like one of twelve or something entering the fourth quarter, and then he scored eighteen in the fourth and won the Nuggets the game. And would they lose that if they lose game two at home with home court advantage after being down over to one of the Spurs like you had in the first round, that's it. Well maybe not the Nuggets. They do like winning from three one comebacks. But regardless of that, this is beyond that, this is before I don't think that you win that series. But at the same time, honestly, that series changed because they put Gary Harris on Derek White. Derek White was just abusing Jamal Murray. It didn't matter Derek White at thirty two points in game yet he was volcanic rowing Jamal. And that's why when I talk about this playoffs, his defensive performance in this playoffs was like exponentially better than I had ever seen him play for an extended amount of time, And that's probably the most important thing to me. But yeah, he was a volatile character. And that first playoff run for the Denver Nuggets of this iteration of their franchise. You mentioned Michael Porter Junior before and how Denver's being realistic about his expectations this year. So what are those expectations, like it's he going to not even a you know, will he start? Do you think he'll be a closing line up staple? Does it all come down to how well he plays on defense? Like because that seemed to dictate his playing time this past year was how I don't want to say good, but like when he wasn't like actively hurting them on defense, like he was allowed to play. Is it still like that type of situation. I don't know, because again, like this is the hardest part about the time of COVID, I'm not there watching where he's playing in these runs. I'm not able to talk to coach in person and see how he reacts to these things. Like things are so different now, it's hard to get a gauge on it. What I will say is this, if Michael Porter Junior does not start, and he does not get the reps he needs to start developing himself to play at this caliber of basketball. The Nuggets are done. They are well aware, like Tim Connolly called it a poorly kept secret that they need Michael Porter Junior to take a leap this year because all of their eggs are now in his basket. They could have forced it. They could have gotten Drew Holiday if they put Porter on the table. I bet they could have traded for almost any one in basketball that isn't you know, that is arguably available for if they included Michael Porter Jr. They didn't. They lost Jeremy Grant, they lost Tory Craig, they lost Mason Plumbly. You gotta show out now because every little bit of their hope for the future is predicated on him becoming something that he was not last year. And he was good last year, but the consistency of the ability to fit within a team, construct, the defensive attention to detail, all of those things are now the most important things for Michael Porter Junior and the Nuggets. So he is the pivot point if everything is going to revolve around his development this season in terms of where the Nuggets can end up by the end of it. There's like, what's sort of weird about that is I feel like he could be, like, let's say, play twenty five to thirty minutes a game, like be the same like offensive weapon in a nutshell that he was last season. And I actually don't know how much it ends up moving the needle for Denver because that's not They're not gonna have a problem doing those things with or without him. And like he had I mean he was I forget what the exact number was, but I remember right about like he had an insanely high effective field go over sence late in the shot clock. So yeah, there's always gonna be like that's gonna have super value. But unless he's like going to be a good defender, I don't know how far he can push this team. And so I'm just curious, like, do you see there were plays where for me watching like a couple of games where it felt like he was making like some pretty what I felt like, we're I don't want to say, like solid rotation. They were like better than average rotations where it felt like he was anticipating things off the ball, but like he was, like, were they frequent enough for you to believe that he'll ever be a good defender? You like kind of more on the pessimistic feel of it, because I have zero feel for what you can expect from Michael Porter Junior defensively moving forward. So he did have some like legitimately and like NBA quality rotations defensively and like running joke on Twitter is me turning to Matt Moore during Nuggets games and being like, you see the tools that Michael Porter Junior has on defense, Like you see how good that could potentially be, because there is like the physical ability of Michael Porter Junior is devastating defensively. He's so agile in terms of being in a perimeter defender because his hips actually do move that he can get into passing lanes. He can swallow dudes up, he can just get wide and contain the perimeter. But he can also rotate from the weak side and block shots. Like to have a wing who can do both of those things is so hyper rare in this NBA setting. But my question is this, is Porter gonna get so good offensively he just stops caring about defense. This has always been my question because and credits to Michael Malone. I think that Michael Malone deserves way more respect for the way he has handled Michael Porter Jr. Because if you don't instill these defensive principles now, he will never get them because he is that gifted offensively, like you said, just a stupid effective field goal percentage at the end of the shot clock. He is one of the most gifted shot makers from anywhere on the court, off the bounce, off the catch that is in basketball right now. He is a god given talent in that regard. But is he ever going to care about defensive enough if he gets too good offensively? I think all of a sudden you see him start to stop caring about the rest of it. I'm sorry, that is really where I fall on this. So hopefully Michael Malone is just drilling this kid again, because if they don't get the defensive impact from him, you're not winning, even if he averages twenty five and twelve a night. Yeah, And so I'm wondering. The other player that I have this like sort of same question about is Gary Harris. I know injuries have like dogged him basically the past two seasons, and he did his three point clip. I think when you look from like February onward, was like it was good. But he's just been such a roller coaster on offensive the point where it's felt like he just even shouldn't be on the floor at times and hasn't been on the floor at times that the Nuggets would need him, Like, is there life I don't want to say, is there pressure on him? Because there's pressure on everyone every season. But you're reaching the point where it almost feels like if he's not the Gary Harris he was when they signed him to the extension, Like is there even like how big of a point is there in them keeping him? Like where they shouldn't actively be looking to move him at that point? It feels like that's the type of the season that he's entering now. Yeah, I just don't know what asset would be out there for you to get for him, Like are you going to trade a negative asset and Gary Harris and move something with him just to move off the money? Like I just don't think Denver's going to get to that point with Gary. Plus he's the longest tenured nugget on the roster. They adore Gary Harrison's an individual. They want him in a Nuggets uniform for the long haul. But again, now they're at the point now or they have to start asking the questions that you were posing. Is he able to actually even play enough? And he does play, will he'd even be efficient enough? The most glaring brutal stat that I had last year was pre All Star Break, which again was only like the entire regular season minus ten games, so it was virtually the entire regular season. Gary Harris was one of two starters in basketball to shoot under forty percent from the field and under twenty percent from three awesome Justice Winslow, who played twelve games and Gary Harris, who was playing thirty minutes a night, Like, you cannot be the least efficient starter in all of basketball if you're going to earn minutes and have trade value going forward. It cannot happen in he gets injured again with his lower body. But his lower body stuff that he keeps having, he now has if I remember correctly, fifteen lower body injuries fourteen thirty months. Wowie, the number was that high. It was foot, hamstring shin. Then he had like an ankle issue, then it was the core issue. It's it's literally NonStop. Like I've always had this perspective that it was very similar to Terrence Ross earlier in his career. He was lifting like a football player, trying to jump out of the gym with all that weight, and the lower body just couldn't handle it. Gary Harris could have been an All Pro NFL receiver. He was recruited to play both football and basketball at another game, so like he could have been a Megatron caliber receiver. So the dude, in terms of his size, jumping like that, I can see why it doesn't hold up very well. So everything is going to be a big deal of Gary Harris. No one's gonna put their eggs in that basket. But if Gary Harris becomes the Gary Harris of sixteen seventeen, the nuggets go right back up into that statin. In my opinion, there's nobody He's willing to bet on that right now. Yeah, I mean, you're not going to move him as I think the idea of him is still like his contract wouldn't be super tough to move. But you're right, with two years and whatever it is left remaining, that's not going to be like a positive value in a deal. And it's interesting you mentioned that they could have gotten Drew Holiday and they included Michael Porter Junior. I'm curious as if they could have got there's no way they would have gotten Drew Holiday if that Milwaukee offer was on the table and they were including Michael Porter Junior. And so it's like to have like that, And I think part of that is because Gary Harris is I mean Milwaukee gave up all the picks. But like when you're moving Gary Harris and a deal like that, it's now it's more so for salary matching than it is as like a value play because you don't want to pay Gary Harris two years in thirty nine point six million in a vacuum. And the other hard parts when team's call when they when they try to salary Matt, they're like, what about Will Barton's at a Gary and Denver's like no, Like, we want to hold on to Wilbarton. We believe in Wilbarton, we want him to play. And that's a fascinating part of the discussion is everybody could call him for Will, but they keep trying to pitch Gary. It's and again it seems like this is not necessarily something that like is happening with every single trade call, but this has happened peer and there, And that's a tough place to be is Denver. And that's not a good situation for Gary Harris to be in. Yeah, and that was one of my questions, is so who's like more important, useful whatever to this team? Like it like if they want to be a contender next season, is it now officially Will yeah, and I mean the season his season last year was like verging on unreal. No, people don't realize how great Will Barton was for this Nuggets team during the regular season last year. Like he was he picked up the Tyreek, the Tyreek who was it? Tyreek Evans? I almost forgot his name. I haven't talked about him in so long, the Tyreek Evans mantle of the only dude who plays under thirty minutes a game, who's averaging like eighteen six and five, Like he is just a walking production, Like he always finds a way to get you what you need. But my thing is, I look back on that Lakers series that they had in the Western Conference Finals. If Anthony Davis does not hit that game winner, which will Let's be honest, those they're all coin flips. If that does not fall, Denver had two other games and they did it without Will burn, without being able to reverse the court. They were running Jamal Murray Nicola Yoki pick and roll dribble handoff till the sun died, and everybody knew it was coming, and you couldn't get the ball to the other end of the court to run any other offense. So if they had Will Barton a six foot six slashing guard who can also shoot from three, off the bounce or off the catch, can use a pick or doesn't need a pick to get downhill attacking a bent defense. That changes the entire complexion of that series. In my opinion, so Will Barton is one of the most underrated picks for most Improved Player or comeback Player of the Year. I think this year because the Nuggets are going to need everything from him. They don't have the depth of the wing position, they might not have the health of the guard position. So Will is going to be asked to do a lot. And his defense took a significant step forward last year as it is rebounding. Yeah, I could not believe because he was so injured too, like the season before this one, this past one, I couldn't believe how much better he looked on defense like that. It was probably the best defense he played in his career. I'm not like to I'm familiar with how he was in Portland, but it easily seems like that in Denver. It's and I wonder if they get to like I don't think you could turn to him and be like, you know what you're going to be the one that has to defend these wings now. But it seems like if if the discrepancy and value between him and Gary Harris remains this large, like Denver might just get to a point where it feels like, you know what, Paul millsapp insofar as you're healthy, you're a defensive anchor, and then we're just gonna have Barton Porter Junior, Murray Yo gets around you and like we're gonna lean into the offense, and that might just be how they have to I don't want to say like win every game, Like that's gonna offense is gonna have to be their identity more so than it's ever been. During this Michael Malone cries as you say this, so like that's like that's the one thing that's gonna be fascinating. Michael Malone has always been a topic of It's a polar it's a polarizing topic amongst fans. Every coach in the NBA is a polarizing topic amongst fans. But Michael Malone is a defensive first guy, Like he's been trying that forever and now you have to try and find to get the best offense out of this roster in order to win games. Is Michael Malone gonna pick to do. It's gonna be fascinating, but it's gonna be another thing I wanted to add to the Will Barton portion of this. Jeremy Grant was not asked to defend the elite wings in the NBA during the regular season. When things started. He was playing off the bench guarding power forward. That was that was what happened. Will Barton was the one taking Lebron James backing him down in the post. It was Will Barton who was really doing his absolute best. He wasn't great at it, but the effort, the intensity, the length, and the fight was all there to at least make it somewhat more difficult. So again, if we're trying to pretend like we have any idea what a closing lineup would look like against a team like the Lakers, I'd probably put Will on Lebron. I probably put your Michael Greener, Palm mill Sap on Anthony Davis. And that's kind of how the Nuggets are gonna have to match up. Yeah, I remember when I was looking when I was doing the outline for this podcast, I was looking at the matchup data for like some of the nuggets his other wings and was surprised to see like how much time Barton had spent on like a Jason Tatum. Yeah, so I guess he's gonna have to do one more of that, accept it. He loves the battle, like you want to throw me the toughest dudes in the league. I'm like, hey's like an old school play on concrete courts pick up maniac and if he gets that opportunity, he loves that opportunity. So I do anticipate seeing quite a bit of that this season. Uh, this is gonna be a question that's very near and dear to Adam from ELL's heart here. But what do them you know, giving up an asset to get RJ. Hampton now or they essentially said, you know what, you're more valuable than this distant first pick, first round pick and they have Campazzo. What does this say about like Monte Morris, who is now in a contract year is I think it's he's one of I I don't want to I have to go through the list of backup point guards, but he's top three backup point guards in leash without question? Does this infer anything about how they view his future in Denver. No, it does not. Denver wanted to have more playmakers. They were were abundantly aware of how at a disadvantage they were in the playoffs only having two dudes on the same sort of the court who can create for others. They were. It was so so so obvious to them. The RJ. Hampton pick two, by the way, that has nothing to do with this season, not a damn thing. The Nuggets now have a young core for their young core. So like, that's what Tim Connelly is doing with that one, Like you got Zeke Naji, RJ. Hampton and Bull Bull basically there to back up your new book. You know, your actual young core of guys that you have now. So RJ. Hampton has nothing to do with Monte Morris doeshing to do with Fecundo Composo. It was a best player available pick on a team that does not need him right away, that they can slowly bring along to potentially be the ideal shooting guard for this team in three four years. Monte Morris, though, everything I've heard is the Nuggets want to get an expansion done with him. They want Monte and Denver. They are well aware of how valuable he is around the league as well. There are a handful of teams that would start Monte right now, including Detroit by the way, right away out of the gate. But Monte Morris is valuable. Denver does not want to get rid of him, and they're gonna play him even if Fecundo Composo is coming off the bench with him and they're playing five eleven six one back court. They're cool with it. Let's get the playmakers, let's see how it fits, and let's run with it. So Monte is a part of this team until until I have heard otherwise, which I have not. Every intention is they want to keep Monte in Denver. He's probably their second or third most attractive trade asset behind Michael Porter Junior, depending on how you feel about you know, I think the Allard you know, you don't have to pay R. J. Hampton for a while was just you know, was just drafted like he might just be up there. Maybe some people are really in love with bull ball or something. But the handful of teams that are like real in on Bulbo, So yes, I would still say like second or third behind him, like Michael Porter Jr. And so if they do make and that's probably question for later, so I won't step on that, but Adam will be happy to hear that this does not imply anything sinister that Monte Morris will no longer be playing in the state of Colorado. And you already answered this, really, but so RJ. Hampton is just we shouldn't really expect to see him get a crack at all this year. The only way I see him playing is because Denver's resting everybody to start the year because they just got back from the bubble and they're like, screw it, let the kid play. Like that's the only real reason that I see him playing legitimate minutes. If he gets like a legitimate rotation spot, something went very very good or very very bad one way or another. So I don't anticipate it's not off the table. But no, he's going to be a G League player if the G League exists. However they figure that out, and that's kind of my envision of how his role will look. Yeah, they can't figure out the G League stuff. That ends up being like really damaging for players in his situation where they're on a good team and like, how are you going to want to push back on that these two way guys do not get to practice with their actual NBA team very often because they're trying to save the days. Well then they only have they changed it this ut of fifty games. So, but what I'm thinking is, if there's no G League, you're literally with the team every day, practicing every day, getting work with the guys that you are eventually going to play with every day. I do wonder if there's a little bit of helpfulness to a lot of these guys who are almost in a player development here as opposed to getting real minutes against like the G League select team. I still feel like that actual game run where if you're gonna go up against these guys in practice that they're probably not, and especially this season because the trunkt is scheduled, Like, how many of these guys are actually going to be practicing throughout the regular season. But that is really a good point. I forget. I forgot to ask this before moving off of Capozzo. The two questions I have is run is it actually legal to have him and Nicola Yokich on the court at the same time, because I'm not sure. I don't care if that's a criminal. I'm happy to be here. Lock my ass up for talking about Facundo Conpozzo and Nicola Yokich too much. There's look the hockey assist, like highlight real potential of this team now, Like if you like, if they're both touching the ball in the same possession. Oh my god. Like, so I just recorded a podcast on Facundo Conpozzo's best case scenario for this season. Right, just envision this, Jamal Murray Fecundo Compozzo starting backcourt. Because Gary Harris is not able to give you enough. Then you have Michael Porter junior Jamichael Green, and Nicola Yokich. So Porter block shot. Yokich grabs rebound outlets to Capozzo on the break, who is now attacking the slanted defense on the move. With Jamal Murray just scorching down the court without anybody to grab him, There's so many ways that you can just destroy any kind of defense in front of you by having Composito with that group. I really do wonder if a Kundo Composito can fight for that starting shooting guard position. And if he does, oh boy, that's gonna be fun. Well that's what I was gonna looking at his I didn't I'm gonna. I did not watch him. I've not watched a ton of Like I'm too in on Fokundo so good here. So you look at his three point splits with Real Madrid when I say they're all over the place, like I'm not I'm not kidding, and they are all over the place. Does that concern you at all? Because if he's gonna be in those lineups, he's gonna have to be like he's not gonna. I don't know. I don't think he's gonna be a great defender at the NBA level, And so you're gonna his value will be if he's playing with Yokich and Murray at the same time. There needs to be some off ball value there. And if if he's not hitting like those you know, stand still three pointers, that could end up being an issue. But that doesn't seem to concerning you. You're shaking your head. It's not a big yeah, I'm not concerned. He was asked to take an extremely high level of difficulty shots on Real Madrid and unopportuned circumstances, they didn't have a whole lot of just like incredibly brilliant gifted guys like that who can just go get their shot from anywhere on the court, and Facundo can do that. It's very similar to the Devin Harris three point shooting splits in Dallas. They were like Rick Carlisle was like, there's two for one, Devin Harris, go shoot it, like I don't care if you miss every single one of them, and excuse those numbers. And I really really do wonder if that was at play here, because he's not like an elite Seth Curry Steph Curry three point shooter. That's not what I'm trying to pitch here. The shot versatility is incredible. He can shoot off the bounce going left right or stepping in. He can shoot off the catch going left right, jumping into a shot, stepping into a shot from a standstill. Whatever the versatility that you need as a shooter he can bring. He is an incredible floater artist, knows how to get into the mid range, is very creative finishing at the rim as well, and he has learned how to maximize his size and not making an impediment to his game offensively. So I very much so believe in his shooting, and I think it's going to look a lot better. As a complimentary player alongside Nicole Yoki than it ever did ed being asked to create everything offensively for Real Madrid. The Nuggets clearly like believing him too, because you give him multiple guarantee years, correct, I think so my annual two years six million. Yeah, so I was that took me aback a little bit, but like they're clearly it's obviously not a huge investment. But to give him just the two guarantee years, I thought that was like a fairly big side of how confident they are that he can impact. They really do like him. Tim Connelly, Marty Pashas actually who was a scout and a front office advisor for the Nuggets, he actually played with him, going back to some random I can't remember which league it was in. Oh, it's gonna drive me crazy. I want to say it was Turkey, but I can't remember for sure. But the Nuggets have a scout who actually played with him, and they are friends on the team, so like that is a part of it that allowed them to know so much about Faku leading all the way up to this point. It's been like three years of them talking about trying to get composit of Denver. Oh wow, I didn't realize they really liked him. And again it's the same thing as like the Rockets have always wanted to bring over Sergio Lull Like, yeah, it's been six years of them saying this. Never got it done. Denver did with with with Facundo. So bull Ball, Ryan next, do you see him? Like kind of looking at the Nuggets depth chart now it feels like there's a chance he could become part of the backup five rotation. But is that possible because I also, from what I've seen in the quotes coming out of training camp, Isaiah Hartenstein clearly believes that he's getting minutes. I don't know how I feel about that, Like, I'm just still gets love Isaiah Hartenstein. They think that there is so much untapped potential there that has not been able to shine because of his role in Houston, and they really do think that they got to steal in Isaiah Hartenstein. Bull Bowl is not a center right now. That is one thing I've been trying to tell people whenever Bull Bowl comes up, you need to toss out the idea of bull Bowl playing center minutes unless you're playing a zone for ten minutes around him. He is not playing center. Kenny. He can't really play a four though, Like I feel like that's three. You want to get weird, let's get weird. I was talking to Tim connolly on the Brooklyn's court side seats before a game and he joked I was talking about Bullah Bowl and he goes, I was like, you know what is what can he play? He's not a center. He can't defend bigger power forwards. Like what the hell? He goes, why not small forward? And like both me and Brendan Vote who works for DNVR out here kind of like chuckled, Tim didn't chuckle Tim. Tim believes he could play small forward. So then the bubble happens and the prelimbs X whatever they call exhibition games. He was actually able to defend small forwards and it wasn't because he was so mobile and loose. He's so long closing out to shooters. He can take one step from the paint and block your three point jumper. That opened my eyes up to a whole new reality of what bull Bull can be. There is a chance that they just let bull Bull stand one step outside the paint on his side of the floor, take one step and close out. That's all he's got to do as a small forward on the weak side, and it makes me so curious what this can look like. Of course, you can just run pick and rolls, Adam is a million ways that you can counter it. But I do think with especially with how thin they are on the wing, there's a chance bull bull plays legitimate small forward minutes like not in the rotation, but as like a fail safe. So you think we actually see it? And then my father question would be, you think he actually because he hasn't he can shoot over the top of anyone, so he isn't necessarily need to do too much. But you think he has the ball skills to like actually log time at the three. At the other end, yes, his handles, his passing, and his shooting are fine. I have literally no concerns with that on at the NBA level right now. It's everything else. It's can he turn his hips? Is he able to like keep up with guys in in actual transition defense and actually get back quick enough. It's things like that that are more concerning for me. But no, his handles are there, his passing and vision are there. His shooting ability I was told he might be the best shooter on the roster, so like there is something to it. So what is the what's the backup five rotation? Right now? Like, is this going to be We'll see more Mills at there this year. Maybe we'll see Green there as well. I don't think we'll see much green there. Well, I guess I'll say it this way. Whoever doesn't start at power forward will get both backup power forward and backup center minutes. So whether it's Ja Michael Green or Pal Mill Sap starting the other will probably get six to eight minutes at backup center to play small and the bulk of the backup power forward minutes. So other than that, though it's Isaiah Hartenstein's role. I think that is what I'm starting to pick up on. They really are excited about what he can bring to the table. I would actually prefer to see like Green Millsap minutes in tandem then Hartenstein just minimally of what I've seen from him. But I guess if they're that confident, like there's it's gonna have to be if they're If so, ball ball is not a five if that's what we're just saying, which is I toubably get that, like it has to be then like Heartenstein, he's a players going to be a Nashi like what that? I don't know, like those options for a team that's I know, Nicole Yoke. Let's you know, Nicole Yokes has been durable. He plays a lot, but like that, you could still lose games and the ten to thirteen minutes that he's just not on the court, which is like what we've seen with other teams. And so the backup five rotation for them still feels like it's semi pivotabal and I guess they're not. It doesn't sound like they're committed to try like doing any one thing there. That's interesting. And what's really interesting too is that back at Rio Grand Valley in the G League when Monte Morris was there, guess whose center was Isaiah Hartenstein. They called themselves the best pick and roll duo in the G League. They have played together tons of time. We're talking like twenty five thirty games of experience together in addition to practice time, and that to me, there is truly something that is there. They think that Isaiah Hartenstein can be a mobile big who can defend on the perimeter, can eventually stretch his shot out to three point range and a guy who can give you just tons of energy, a limitless, endless amounts of energy on the back of end of your center position. So I like the pickup, especially at the minimum that's a win at Yeah, but yeah, I don't think that we're going to see a whole lot of palm millsapp orgin Michael Green at the five. If we do, it'll be bursts to be able to play small for a second as a counter as opposed to like part of your rotation. That's really I thought like the Clippers should have went to that more with Green, like during the second units in the playoffs. So maybe that's something that becomes more valuable in the postseason. For that, I think there was more valuable specifically against the Nuggets because there was no one that They're like, they didn't have anybody to match up with Niccola, so they were like, all right, let's get someone who's more mobile, more perimeter oriented to get Nicola Yokich out of place defensively. So, like, I don't know how much of that was useful for the Nuggets as as opposed to a counter for the Nuggets because of what they presented to them. Well, I think the Clippers. By doing it, they made the Warrior Series competitive the year before in the first round, and I think they should have went like for it harder in their Maverick series. Like I just thought they underutil I mean, Jamichael Greens over here, that's the pro way with you on this. If it was me coaching the team, I would be doing this, like I very much so like playing big, you know, strong, bigger, old school power forwards at center off the bench to play smaller and faster, grab offensive rebounds and just run Like I really value that type of bench shoot at play. But I just don't think the Nuggets are going to go that route. This might be an easy question what ends up being and it'll I know it'll be matchup based to some extent, but what ends up being like the most common or most effective closing unit for this team. So again, this is very early, so I'm still playing with this a lot. But right now my thought is Jamal Murray, Will Barton, Michael Porter Junior, Jamichael Green, Nicole Yokich. That's what I'm green over Millsap in those situations. Yes, wow, I'm looking at Green over Millsap as a starter in general, like almost anything that you bring to me as like which one would you like to have more of? Like Jamichael Green is my answer, and that is not a shot at Paul Millsapp. Ja Michael Green has a lot more skills he can bring to this Nuggets team than he has shown on other teams. And I fully believe that his fit and honestly is youth compared to Paul Millsap is a really important addition like Paul Millsapp has aged. I mean, Paul Millsapp will tell you that he also feels great and he'll say that, but he can't do the same things that he once did, like in the Utah series. He can't check the roller and then get back to the three point line at the fend of three point shot. Jamchael Green can And that is just something that you can't do at that age for Paul Millsapp right now, which is why I give Ja Michael Green the edge. Yeah, he did seem like he picked up a little bit in the Lakers series, but I don't know if that was a product of how the Lakers play, like that might have benefited SA. So the Jazz loved relocating their shooters on the weak side as the action on the strong side happened, which made Paul Mills have have to take a beat to rEFInd his the guy that he's defending to get out to the perimeter. The Lakers didn't do much of that. There wasn't as much off ball like nuance to their ability to attack them. So Paul millsap knew he was just going to the corner against the Lakers. It wasn't. Oh, Joe Ingolds has slowly waded his way up the wing and now I can't get there. So that's kind of the difference from those two series. In my eyes. You might have already tipped her hands here because it sounds like you want to see bull ball at the three. But is there a quirky lineup where if you were in charge of the team or Mike Bloonan said, hey, you could just pick our pick this five men you, I'm gonna roll it out right now. Is there one that you would just like to see them test out at some point this year? Yes, yes, there is. Jamal Murray, Facundo Compozzo, Michael Porter, Junior bull Ball, NICOLEA. Yokich, Give it to me, give me all of the offensive passing, shooting, chaos mess that I can have, Like there's a mismatch everywhere. You can do whatever you want with that group, Like you can run four I've pick and rolls at Bull Bowl and they call the Yokich. You can run three four pick and rolls at Michael Porter in Bull Bowl. You can do any sort of combination with either of your guards. Like the fun and the limitless potential of the offensive game plan with that group is just so exciting to me, and I would love to see them play. I wonder if Mike Malone would resign on the spot if he was told he had to play that one. I'm drinking water and I definitely felt to get towards my nose and almost come out from laughing there. Michael Malone would explode. I love Michael Malone to death. That is not how he wants to play basketball. Like Michael Malone is much closer to the twenty fifteen sixteen Grizzlies than he is that version of ball, Like this is like no way that I'm seeing that workout. We kind of touched on this like ten gentially before, but the Nuggets still feel like they're built for some sort of move just because they have like salary that could be matched elsewhere they do have. They've only traded one future first round pick. You still have RJ. Hampton sitting there. I guess they could include MPJ, but they have some nice non MPJ assets as well. When you look at Ballball and even Mante Morris, do you see them trying to not necessarily pulling it off, but trying to be aggressive at the trade deadline to go out and maybe get that body that they're now missing without Jeremy Grant or is that you know they might just hang their hats on maybe getting lucky in the buyout market, like maybe Trevor Rees is floating around out there at some point, as will they come to Denver or something like that. So I do think that they saved part of their biannual exception for the buyout market. That would make so much sense to me because they didn't use the whole thing. So I do expect that to be at least on the table. Also, that would be a a real weapon with Theresa, who I as a as a player I appreciate because he's been like a true mercenary where it's like, you know what, I'm gonna get paid here and I'll figure out a way to get to another team later. And that's I don't want to hear ten million dollar deals that he's gone. He's incredible, He's playing for like seven. He had to at one point this offseason forget who he was playing for or which tem was on, which is okay, see apparently no. My favorite thing was people were playing this game on their podcast. Justin Russo was whereas like, who do Trevor Or He's a play for? And it was like a trivia game during the off season. That was funny. No one got it right. But at the same time, though I don't know if Denver would trade any assets to get a place holder for Jeremy Grant. You have to be talking about a legitimate near star level player or superstar in your role, because again, Jeremy Grant at like twelve and five is not like a superstar, but he was exactly the type of player in that role that you wanted. So if they can find someone like that, which let's be honest, I don't know of a one. I don't know of a single person that I was tractually so many of them were like actually moved this offseason where it's like the ones that you could envision being available. Okay, Jay Crowder's now on what should be a good team, So less Phoenix slops, it's not gonna be Jay Crowder. Josh Richardson was just traded to Dallas, and so unless let's say Christops is just unhealthy, they're worried about cap space next year and they don't want to resign him when he opts out, he's not going to be available. Covington was just sent to the Blazers and they gave up two first for him. They're not moving Bray and the exact same boat going to Golden State. Like, they're aren't players that Denver can just go get. And that's why when people start asking about like future moves, I'm like, listen, let's say, unless Bradley bal is available, I don't see a whole lot of like shake up at this point. And they have seven new dudes in their roster right now, anyway, Like, do the Nuggets really want to have even more turnover on that roster? Like no, it's not your top end of your rotation, but like that is still impactful to your overall team complexion. So I really do, like the only way I see Denver going all in is if a guy of you know, Bradley Beal's ilk becomes available. But I don't see them trading for Sir Jebaka, who finally is able to be traded, you know what I mean? Like that just isn't gonna fit for what Denver's looking for, especially said Monte Morrison, Will Barton to do it, like, I just don't see it. So so you see, I guess it would be more likely for them to go all in on a blockbuster than to go out and try and find like someone to fill the role that they lost with Jeremy Grant. Yeah, because there's just aren't enough players out there who are available for the right price to be able to get that like that, They're just aren't the one I thought about, And it doesn't work like by itself. But like if you get to a point the framework would be Gary Harris for Harrison Barnes, I don't think that was Are you adding enough defensively with Harrison Barnes? And is he his style of play? You know, the Kobe ask, I'm gonna get my shot off the balance gonna fit within this Nuggets team construct. I think he's done since Dallas made him that player after he left Gold Stage, and I feel like he's done a lot better of a job balancing that out in Sacramento. And if he's going to do that in Sacramento, he's gonna be able to do that when he plays like Sea. That's a really good point. It's a really good point. But again, that contracts big two. I don't know. I don't like it. On the surface. I haven't looked into it enough. It might be something I'm just not thinking about right now, But on the surface, like does that move the needle for you? I don't think it does now, or maybe it does a little bit, not enough to put you back into that contender category, not to put you with the Lakers and the Clippers, Like that's not where you end up from that kind of a move. Yeah, I mean, so he's three years sixty eight point eight. Harris is two years forty basically, So it's the extra year. I think where the concern is is you probably at this point would trust Barnes more so at the four spot where you're not hard up for talent than you would is like the three, like Jeremy Grant was, like you could put him anywhere. Barnes doesn't have like that malluability, but that was I think that's the trouble though. It was like, that's the move. Josh Richardson would have been my favorite edition for this. That was mine as well, because you can put him with the two like you actually have size, athleticism and defensive versatility at this at the shooting guard position for the first time with Nicola yok which has been in Denver, like, they just never have had that kind of a wing in the backcourt. I that's something that I very much there would have liked. Uh and he's like the heat. At least Philly didn't use him like this. He was defending one through four when he was in Miami, which is just wild. So what's a realistic win total and Western Conference standing finished for this team? You can give me the eighty two game equivalent. I have the formula line up right here so I can plug it in. Yeah, I had forty seven with the with like not on eighty two games, Cadule one or seventy two games. J I was hovering right around forty six to forty eight wins, Okay, so if they were forty six, I see equivalent of fifty two wins, so fifty two to fifty three, which it feels right because, like I said, it feels like this team might be just as good during the regular season. It's I feel like we we're gonna see it gets worse if no moves are made is during the playoffs, If that makes any sense. It would be really funny if Denver had it, They're like, what sixth straight season of like a fifty plus win rate, where like you know, again, if there's eighty two games, you would have won fifty kind of thing, and they still lose in the first round of the Phoenix Suns in the four five matchup, Like that's the most nugget thing I can conceive of in my brain. So like that's kind of how I'm doing this team right now. They're a good team that can be a top four seed who is probably gonna lose prettydamn quick in the playoffs because they don't have that upside. There's and I think their ceiling would be standings wise. I think you could argue first, but it feels like second would be realistic because I feel like one of the Lakers or Clippers are just gonna stumble into being dominant. I don't know that they'll caullnt enough about the regular season. So there's a scenario where it's like, well, the Clippers and the Lakers really don't care. Nuggets are kind of built for the regular season, and they have the one seed, so they have like and then below that, like one through six this year, or let's say one through five to six, because the Rockets will probably blow up. I'm assuming they feel like almost interchangeable at this point in the West, which is part of the madness for sure. And again there's always the aspect that all of these teams in the top half of the Western Conference just got back from the bubble, so like they're not going to be going all in for the first you know, six weeks of the season. Anyway, they're gonna get their recovery. And like, I don't anticipate the Nuggets plant any of their starters through more than three quarters, you know what I mean. Like that's just kind of where they're at right now, and I do wonder how that skews a lot of these conversations. We just don't know how these teams are going to manage the ridiculously short offseason that they just have. Yeah, we're talking about like expectations, and it's like there might just be scheduled rest nights for guys who would normally, you know, murder their coaches if they rested, like if the Blazers might rest. Dame, like if he's not injured, like that should actually happen. Has never said he wants to rest. He's actively pushed back and hates the idea. Like my vision of Jamal Murray resting is him being handcuffed to a able not able to leave even he was like listening there. If there's some rest I can get in the first half of the season, I'm gonna take it, because that's where these guys are at, though, Like that's a lot to bear, especially when you're playing at this level of competition. Just had two three one comebacks and then lost in the Western Conference finals in dramatic fashion. Like that's a lot to come back from that quickly. Yeah, I still can't believe they've raised two three to one deficits. That's just that's amazing. And the fact that an anecdote in the past now because we've had to move fast. First of all, it feels like a zillion years ago. Because not only like it feels like time has at once sped up and slowed down at the same time where it feels like an eternity ago that it was March, but like, how was this year not over yet? Type deal? Is there anything that I missed that you feel we need to talk about, anything that you want to get off your chest now that we did not cover? I don't think so. I think I think we've covered most of it. Normally I have something that's been running through my brain, but I think we covered it. Man. Hey, I was worried we were gonna be too cookie cutters. So I appreciate that. Nicola Yokich's nuptials maybe those I want to know what that wedding was, like Nicolayoki's wedding, which was hysterical by the way, I had a Serbian newspaper reach out to me and my Twitter dms in Serbian trying to explain to me that Yokich got married so I could put it on Twitter. It's so funny how like invested the Serbian community. Isn't every last little thing Nicola Yokich does. I will say this, there's three things that Nicola Yokich cares about in this world, his girlfriend, music, and horses, and he got all of those things in his wedding. So I'm very happy for Nicola Yokich. That is all that I care about. The video of him like riding the dream Catcher. Bella Marguerite and dream Catcher are his two horses back out in Serbia. That's fantastic. TJ. Thank you so much for giving me a bunch of your time. If you guys are not following TJ on Twitter, remedy that immediately, particularly if you're listening to this on his podcast feed and not Hardware Knocks. He is at TJ McBride MBA. That's at TJ mcbr i d E MBA. He is the host of the Rock Mountain Hoops podcast for Blue Eyre Pods, and you can also find his writing all over the place now, which I'm sure he'll be bumping on Twitter when it's all published. YEA, love talking hoops with you, man. I appreciate you really coming on. This was fun and rest assured I will be bothering you again at some point in the future, and I will be bothering you as well as the business podcast keep getting bigger and bigger, so I'm very, very happy to have been here to talk some hoops and just chop it up for a little bit. It's always fun. Thanks again, DJ, take care, have a good one man, Olivia. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the Hardwoodknox podcast to talk some Oklahoma City thunder with me. How are you doing today? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about it. Look the thunder of a lot to talk about they and I don't say this as a joke, but like, there were moments where I just forgot who was on their roster because of how much movement there was over the off season so far for them, and so I think my first question to you has to be is just what is you know, settling in looking like zooming out and looking at the world end of transactions and movements that happened. What was your general impression of the off season, the overarching sentiment that you take away from it, maybe something you particularly liked or something you thought was imperfect, just zooming out and kind of giving us an overview of what you thought about what they did. Yeah, it's literally my job to cover the thunder, and as I still can't keep up with all if they have like twenty players on the roster right now, and half of them I've never even heard of before. So it's been a pretty crazy off season. But I think on the whole, my general opinion is that it was positive. I think that we got a really good return on Shrewder and Adams, and pretty good on Paul. I think that thunder Fans has gotten a little bit greedy just because Sam Prufty is so good at what he does that we just like expect to get, you know, five first round picks for Chris Paul, which really isn't realistic. So if we are being realistic, I think what we got for those players was really good. I was most impressed by the Adams trade. I was really surprised by the return that they got. I thought that they would have a hard time trading Adams just because of the size of his contract and kind of his skill set being limited for the way that the NBA is trending, But we got really great return from the Pelicans, and the Pelicans even signed him to a two year extension. So that was really probably the trade that impressed me the most from Sam Presty. Yeah, that one. That one really surprised me. They didn't have to get a first round pick, and then to not have to take back Eric Bledsoe in that deal kind of felt like a stroke of genius for them. And then George Hill is someone that you're not going to get high value for him, but if they wanted to move him again, like he's easier to move then and Eric Bledsow, which is why it's big, and just the sheer volume of first round picks they have. Now what is actually most interesting about it to me is so they have a zillion first round picks between now and two twenty six, and yet they don't feel like they're overloaded in any one class, like they're not. They don't have four first round picks in two twenty two or two and twenty one. And with the you know when they moved Green to Philly and they got the twenty twenty five first round pick, I think it was like that just seems smart, where it's like get this distant asset because you're you're so like inundated with all these first round picks at the moment, and I'm wondering if that's maybe why they actually didn't get more for taking on Horford's contract because I still viewed Green as an asset, and when you look at it as giving up him and only getting one first round pick in Horford back, like that was I think that was the move that maybe the most uncomfortable, which is to say it wasn't really that uncomfortable except when you're looking at it through the lens of well, now they have this, like you know, Philly should still be good, but like what if they're not? Down the line? Like, I think that ends up being a fairly huge deal because you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you have to deal all these picks because you're in a roster spot crunch because you have a trillion of them in any given year, right exactly. I think it's just it. It's really smart move. It's very strategic because it opens up so many possibilities. It's the Thunder are in a really unique position right now where they don't have to commit to one certain pathway because they have, you know, picks ranging all the way up and sold twenty twenty seven, and they can kind of make decisions as they go depending on what happens this season and next season. If things were going really well. They can maybe leverage some of the future picks to do something now, or they can kind of wait it out and see what the draft classes are going to be like in the future. So I think that we're in a really really good position, even though we're about to be really really bad this season. Is there like an element of why now to this where I think a lot of people expected the teardown to come immediately after, like the full on teardown to come after the Westbrook and Paul George trades, or maybe like towards mid season last year? Was it, you know, purely because that Chris Paul's contract with you like as a net negative last year and now you turn around and get actual value for it. So the timing was just right. Do you think it was a matter of they kind of looked at I don't. I don't want to say tanking, but like organic badness as being a market in efficiency right now in a Western conference where I think, as it stands, okay, See is probably the only team that identifies itself behind the scenes as hey, we're not going to make the playoffs or we're not necessarily aiming for the play in tournament, and so there's value and then just being bad now because no one else is trying to be Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. I think that, like I think that it was in the back of their minds at the start of last season, but this is something that's going to happen either this season or next season. And I think what really changed that was Chris Paul and how much better I think that he was than we expected he would he would be, and how much value he would get for him, And that spilled over to other people on the team as well. So Dennis Shrewder as well at the time that we traded him now had probably the highest trade value that he will ever have. So I think that I think they made a decision mid season to continue to push and to get the maximum return and not head into this tanking season with a lot of large contracts and a lot of money on the books that they won't be able to flip later. It does seem and like you know, other teams in I won't say a similar situation because they've been bad for longer, but if you look at Cleveland, if you look at New York, like, they don't necessarily have that franchise North Star, and it seems that Oklahoma City has decided like that Shay Gill just Alexander and so there's I think there's been talk about that so going into this season, like you know, the first two years, like he played with other really good veterans around him, and while he still has some there, like the supporting catch just might be super transient at this point. So what is it that the team is going to be looking for him from next year? I know there's been a lot of talk about him improving his defense, and you know, you can speak to this better than I can. Maybe they're just planning on saddling him with like more bigger wing assignments. But I also, as I mentioned to you, like it does seem just given their personnel now specifically, and then how poor the offense was last year when he was on the floor without Chris Paul, that they probably need him to develop as a half court initiator and even off the dribble three point shooter just as much, if not more. Yeah, absolutely, I think that the number one priority for as She going into the season is being the primary ball hander, the primary ball handler, playing point guard, creating his own shots, kind of, you know, doing things on his own now that he doesn't have Shooter and Chris Paul to facilitate for him. So that's going to be a huge thing for him, and not just creating shots for himself, facilitating his teammates as well. And that's not something that he has had to do it before. And there were instances last season when Chris Paul or Dennis Shooter would be out and he would play point guard and it didn't really go as well as we all hoped it would, but you know, he was kind of like thrown into that position without a lot of preparation, I guess. And so I think with that being the primary goal of the season and him getting a lot of experience doing that, I think he'll be better. I think he's up to the challenge. I do think just like innately as a player, he's a very good shooter. He has very good ball handling skills. I actually think that his defense is pretty good considering his size, and I think that is something that they want him to build on now that Chris Paul is not there, now that Shrewder's not there, He's got to take on some bigger defensive assignments. I think obviously lu Dort gets you know, the number one assignment, but she has really got to step up and guard you know, some bigger, bigger players as well. Is there anything that you really liked or were surprised about watching him last year since it was his first season in Oklahoma City, just relative to his game. He would just have these moments where he would just have like these other World League games where it was kind of like watching him become a superstar in real time, and it you know, it wasn't always like that, Like he definitely has some issues and there was definitely some youngness showing in that Game seven against Houston for SGA, But just like throughout the season, he would have these moments where you could just were like, this guy is gonna be and I'll start, this guy's gonna take over the league one day, and I just want more of that. And I feel like this is a really good season for him to do that, just because you know, it's kind of all the focuses on him off into setting around him. I hope he really takes off and takes on that role fullheartedly, but not too well that we won a lot of games, all the games by one point, that's fine. He's I think a lot of people are skeptical on his ability to maybe be like the lead man for an offense. But just you know, for me, who's choppering in for like only like a game at at a time. His first two years in the league, like his pick and roll, like you just seems to be the pain, Like the change of pace that he can go within there and navigate traffic. He cut down on his turnovers in the pick and roll from his rookie to sophomore season, Like that feels like good evidence to be like, hey, maybe this guy can be the engine for an entire offense, the one thing maybe they need to do, and perhaps they have it now. I would probably say no, but that's something to just look forward to. Is can you just make sure you're surrounding him with a bunch of shooting because that opens so much more options for him. But I would think that just looking at that, that it has to be super encouraging because it feels like he's been in the league longer, maybe because he was like on that Clippers team I made playoffs and then he was traded and now the thunder are like overturning their identity again. But to have that much improvement from year one to year two and then again to still just be coming out of year two, I feel like seems like a fairly big deal. Yeah, it's a lot to ask from a player that young, But like I said, I think he's up to it, and I think he's known since he came to Oklahoma City that this would be what his role would be an okaycy to be the franchise player, to be our north star, as you said, So I think he's been preparing for it. He's ready. I'm excited, and hopefully he stays among the best dressed in the league. But that's always fun that he brings that little flare the Yeah, one of my favorite things about the thunders off season was like there was this coaching search tumult for like over a month, like between all these different teams in the NBA, and the Thunder were just like kind of off to the shadows, chilling, and then they make a higher that I think, you know, from people who are five thousand feet removed from the situation, just didn't seem coming. So I'm curious, Well, I guess we should start here, because I actually for the start of the podcast. How are we we are pronouncing it Mark dag Nolt, like as the thunder sent out, or are we going with the with the French pronunciation. I think we're sticking with Mark dang Nolt. That's how he pronounces it, That's how Presty pronounces it, So I guess we'll go with that. I've just been calling him Mark the Shark because it's here. What was your overall impression of that higher were you as sort of taken aback by maybe not the line of thinking from the thunder there, but like their ultimate choice is everybody else? So I will I will say I wasn't expecting him specifically, but I was expecting them to hire someone unexpected, if that makes sense, because that's just the way that Sam Presty is. He finds these people, you know, just that no one's thinking about that or in like the far corners of the world, and he just zeroes in on them and he picks the person that he thinks will be the best for the franchise, regardless of what you know the media is saying what fans think would be the best higher, et cetera. So I's expecting someone unexpect I did, but after, you know, going to the media availability with Dagnol and kind of talking to the other players about what they thought about him as a coach. I think that he's a really good player development coach. So he coached our G League team for five years and then came up to coach as an assistant for the Thunder last season, and so he has a really keen ability to develop young players. And I also think that he has a really good relationship with the players. Almost every single player we've talked to so far at media availability has mentioned that they really emphasizes personal relationships with the players and getting us to know them and having that kind of one on one feel with every single one of the players, and they seem really the players seem really receptive to that and very excited about having him as a coach. They are all really excited for him for getting the call up, and I think on the whole, it's going to be kind of a learning process for both him and the players at the same time. But I think if he takes these big strip it's while we're rebuilding, he could be a long term fixture for the Thunder. But it really all just depends on how these next couple seasons go. I've always kind of thought if that was an underrated aspect of coaching choices, where maybe like some sentiments might suggest that you should go with the more experienced coach to lead what's going to wind up being a young group, or is it better to get someone like Dag Noel who's thirty five and infury it's easier to relate to you twenty three twenty five year olds when you're thirty five, is opposed to fifty five year old Billy Donovan and then just lean on veterans in the locker room to take care of the rest. It's something I've thought about before, like not much, but that makes it if he's so good at relating to players now, that makes it seem like and then being in the G League definitely had to help with that like aspect of the coaching too, so that like the train of thought here seems to be really spot on for what the Thunder trying to do exactly. And I don't think that you know, like a Doc Rivers or Dan Tony would be the right there right now for the Thunder where with where they are, and they don't think any of those coaches want to coach the Thunder right now understandably, So I think it was a perfect higher. Sam Presty really believes in him. He's been around the franchise for a long time, so I think he's really just alliance with the direction the Thunder are going. That Rivers's voice sounds like blown out speakers. Now, could you imagine him coaching like a really young team for a year and then what it might sound like after that? Exactly? Have you? I know, you know, I feel like they this is championed about almost every new or definitely young coach, but you know, Dagnell comes from the pace in space mold. Is there anything that you can tell us about, like just from a sense of how you think the Thunder are going to play or what their identity is going to be under him on the floor. Oh man, that's a difficult question. It's so hard to say, just because first of all, I don't even think this current roster that we have right now will be the you know, the roster throughout the entire season, and all these movement keys is going in and out are really going to be a challenge for Dagnol and how he's going to kind of have some semblance of consistency throughout the season, So it's really hard to say. I think just because well, you could go either way. You could say that because they have younger players, they could kind of play a faster offense, but also they're more inexperienced players, so maybe like a more calculated approach would be better. I honestly don't know. I think it'll It'll really depend on who's on the roster, but I think he'll stick to his pace in space. But we'll see. Now, as you mentioned, this roster is it's just invariably going to change, and it's consumingly happening. Happened on a whim, like we can bet it'll happen before I think the trade deadlines at the end of Marsh this year, but it feels like it could just happen at any moment. Looking at this roster long term though, who's the second most important player behind shi Yo just Alexander. I'm assuming it's Darius Baisley or Alexei poka Chevski, But I'm honestly like, I feel like you could probably make an argument for one or two other guys as well. Yeah, I think I think we're talking about the short term, long term, and it's Darius Baisley. He's, you know, kind of like a he's already now player. He took really, really really big strides and made huge improvements last season, especially in the bubble. And if he can come into this season picking up where he left off, that's going to be phenomenal for the Thunder. And that definitely makes him, you know, the second the second best player, the second piece for the Thunder. Pokushchevski. I feel like it is more of a long term project. He's very young. He was the youngest player available in the draft, and I think several people have said this to describe him. He has probably the lowest floor and highest ceiling. He really could go either way. And I think it's going to be more of a long term project. I think he'll play a little bit in the G League before he really makes an impact for the Thunder. And so do you think that's where he spends most of his time then this upcoming season, Yeah, I do. We talked to him yesterday. He's a little sweetheart, but he's just so young, and so you know, he seems really willing to work and put in the work in the time and willing to learn. But he is just, you know, very He's very young, and I think that he's going to have to adjust to the NBA. The biggest thing, obviously is his size. He knows that he's working on it, he's putting putting on weight, but you can't roll him out at center on opening day for sure. Yeah, And that was like the pick in the draft where if you're the Hawks and you're holding onto like the Thunder's twenty twenty two first, that's turns into two seconds if it doesn't convey. You had to know in that moment that you weren't getting that first round pick because it was like, oh, the Thunder are planning on like going through this rebuild for for quite some time. If they're taking this eighteen year old kid who I think some people were even questioning whether he was going to come over to the States at all this year, right exactly. So he just has a lot of unknowns. I think, like in like the best case scenario, dare I say he's an up and coming Kevin Durant just with his size and sprame. But that's obviously like the upper upper ceiling level of him. But I mean if he can get bigger, Maybe he could be more like a Yokich where he can play center, but he can also shoot, so there's just a lot of variability for him as a player. It really could go either way. But I will say that he's someone that the Thunder didn't land on by accident. They moved up in the draft to specifically get Pokashevski, and that tells me that they see something in him that they specifically want going forward, or they saw an opportunity where they can afford to take the risk because they know that we're not contending this season. So overall, I think, you know, it's fine, but we'll have to see what happens with him. Yeah, there's there was criticism where a lot of people thought it was a reach. And I'm one not a draft nick so like a lot of these guys, I'm only looking at after the draft. But two, I don't know that you can make, like, to me, too big of a reach when you're outside the lottery like they were. That was pick number seventeen. At the end of the day, what is pick number seventeen supposed to turn into? And it's not like, you know, they drafted someone who wasn't considered an MBA prospect in that spot. So I honestly, we obviously don't know how it's going to turn out. But I actually like for teams outside the lottery specifically, and maybe even later on in the lottery, like I appreciate these types of big swings. Yeah, and Samah Presti, he's I mean, we all know he's got a pretty great track record in the drafts and he has gambled on young players like this before and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. It worked out really well with Darius Baisley the year before, it didn't work out that well with Terrence Ferguson. So you know, I think that I have confidence in Presty in his decisions, so I think it'll be good the So for Darius Bazley specifically, like what role, like do you see from him this year or do you do you buy into the three point shooting he showed in the bubble, he was I think it was over forty six percent in those final eight games at the Thunder played and then he was at fifty percent in the playoffs and the volume was like you know, it wasn't Davis Berton's volume, but it was like actual volume. So do you buy into that? Do you view him? Do you think he starts right away for this team? Like what is what are just your impressions of him or what is the team expecting from him going into this year. I do think he starts, and I do think that the thunder are expecting him to be kind of their second option, like we talked about earlier. So the more playing time and the more responsibility that he can get, and the earlier in the season that that happens, I think that's best for him long term. I think the biggest thing that they're going to be looking forward to him to him doing, which you kind of touched on, is consistency. So that really great volume of three point shooting that happened at the end of the season, there were glimmers and spots at that throughout the regular season, but it was never really consistent where he could be like a reliable knockdown shooter. So I think the biggest thing for him is consistency, and then just size and defense and you know, being able to protect the rim and things like that, which just comes with you know, getting bigger. He's also super young, but I think he's been working on getting bigger, so hopefully that he has some more defensive capabilities this season. Does he have like more to plumb on offense than like someone who's gonna and this isn't like a bad thing if this is what he is, but you know, it seems like a lot of his or most of his opportunities are going to come within the flow of the offense, which I think, you know, when you have Chris Paul on your team, like that's and Dennis Shooter and Sexander, that's gonna happen. But seventy percent of his offensive possessions were either spot ups or in transition. Does he have like do you view him as more of like a plug and play offensive option. Do you see like someone who has more of a floor game or that they might try and expand his role to generate his own offense or has he kind of like already been like is that just going to be his his niche where he's like playing off of everybody else. I think that's kind of his niche. I think he's going to be more of a plug and play player. But I don't think that's I mean, like you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. You can't have everyone on the team being someone who who creates shots, right, So I think that I think that is his niche and I think that pairs really well with Shield the Axander, like you said, so I think they could be a good combo between the two of them. But yeah, I don't think that he's going to be you know, create your shot, own shot kind of player. I mean, and those guys are just easier to have on the roster in general because they don't dictate how you flesh out the rest of it, like they can just fit with everybody else. Yeah, can I think, oh, sorry, go ahead, this one more thing. I think he's so Darius Basley is so young but also so motivated to learn, and I think that one thing that's going to be different for him this season is not having Chris Paul to kind of be that mentor to kind of be that guy that's on him to you know, live up to his potential. And so I'm hoping that Sga kind of takes on that role for the Thunder and can really motivate these young guys to play beyond their potential because I think Chris Paul did a great job of thought with Darius Baisley and obviously with lu Dort so that'll be a big part for Darius Baisley this season as well, kind of going the complete opposite direction for players that don't feel necessarily long for this roster. The three that stand out with divergent time lines are George Hill, Trevor Ariza and Al Horford. Do you have a sense of like what the end game is going to be for them? Like, are they so transient where you just assume that, you know, probably Hill and Aresa specifically, just the way their contracts work out, that they're going to be gone by the trade deadline, even if it's like a matter of a buyout in the interm However, the long with the team, do you see them getting like actual playing time and you know, including Horford into that as well. Yeah, So it's a difficult position for the Thunder because you want to develop your young talent, you want to play those players as much as you can, but at the same time, if you want to get a return on Hill or Ariza or Horford, you have to play them to show a potentially contending team that Al Horford is the missing piece that they need to win a championship. So that's a delicate balance of the Thunder are going to have to figure out how to how to do that. I kind of think that I kind of think that Hill and Horford will have spot in the starting lineup, and but I do not think that they will be there long term. So I think that Hill and Theresa I probably get flipped before the deadline. Corford might be a little bit more challenging. But if you can show that he's still a valuable player that a contending team might want, I think it's plausible that he could also be flipped before the deadline. Yeah. I mean they're the Thunder like masters of that, apparently after you know, the talk being that they were going to need to attach something to move Chris Paul before last season, and then, like we mentioned at the top of the podcast, they trade him for actual value. The thing with Horford two is like he was viewed as like a top twenty, top twenty five player heading into last year, and so you know, you look at his age, sort of the injury problems that he dealt with last season, you don't necessarily want to get into him for you know, the three years, and I think he has sixty eight million guarantee and eighty one million total. At the same time, if he's like playing you know, a ton of center like and doesn't have to play alongside like another traditional big for too long. If you're in line ups where Darius Basley as you're four, and there's just like enough spacing around him, I feel like there's actually a better than advertised chance the Thunder do end up rebooting his value, not to the point where they're going to get necessarily value for him in return, but where another team might come calling and they're not asking for an asset to come with him exactly. Yeah, I think so. And I think just at the end of the day, like obviously picks are great, and obviously Sam Presty lobs his draft picks, but also just getting that contract off of our books, however we manage to do that, because right now, I think, like the Thunder, if you take out you know, the larger contracts, they've got like forty million on the books or something ridiculous like that, and like most of that it's going towards these bigger players, and they've got like ten players that only account for like fifteen million dollars or something. Absolutely ridiculous like that. And so I think, you know, that's more of the big picture, is keeping those spaces open on the books to resign a Shia, but also to get you know, a larger name, all star type player when the time comes for that, which is not now in the lawn term. But we don't want to have Horford's contract on the books when it comes time for that, right, He's like the like when you're looking at even just like expensive salary though he's really the only long term expensive salary they have because of George Hill's non guarantee next year. Exactly, It's crazy. This is Yeah, they've really cleared the deck there. I'm like, they're they're just interesting by virtue of all the options in front of them. Exactly. So what's your what's still the biggest concern for this roster whether you're looking at the current construction, if you don't expect them maybe to shake it up, you know, mid season before the off season, is it? You know, is it oversimplifying get to say like they don't have that clear cut floor general and maybe they're gonna be too reliant on SGA. Is it sort of the limited amount of I'll say proven two way wings because that could still be you know, maybe basically he's more of a big or maybe Dort just you know, hits more of his threes this year. Is are we worried about Sam Presty drowning in all the first round picks that he has acquired. M Yeah, there's a lot of a lot of unknowns, and that's probably the most concerning thing, is just not knowing what's going to happen. But I think this is going to sound crazy, but I think the roster as currently constructed today, we're still too good. So we need to be lots good. And that means you know, trading aresa Horford Hill, whatever combination of those things. But I think right now this team is still too good for for what I would like it to be. And then the other thing that kind of concerns me long term is that, yes, we're clearing the books, Yes we are you know, really focusing on a couple of players, but what has happened as a result of that is our whole roster is super young, and so going forward, we I think we'll need a player like a Chris Paul type player to come and kind of be the anchor for the team. I hope that s A can be that type of person, but I think you really need someone who's a little bit more of a veteran, more experience in the league because we are talking about Sha becoming the leader for this team. But also keep in mind, like he said, it's only his third year in the NBA, so he doesn't really have that I think presence in leadership that a player like Chris Paul would have. So I'm most concerned about just how young our team is, but I think that will change going forward, and then just not knowing what trades are going to happen and if our team is going to really be bad enough for how bad we need to be. Yeah, I would. I think I would agree with you, at least when we're looking at the top of the roster, like if they weren't to make any moves for the rest of the season, There's like a few teams that I would look at and be like, there's a strong in the West. There's a strong chance that Okase is better than them, which I guess would sort of lead be like into this question when you're I mean, maybe even I know starting lineups are and I don't even think I had this written down in that outline I sent you, so I apologize, but like starting one us have become arbitrary. But this might be one of the teams where it's really interesting because of the balance they have to strike between development and then like they do have these veterans on the team, they're going to want to play. So do you've what do you like? What do you think they're starting five ends up being at the start of the season. I think at the start of the season it's going to be SGA, dort Hill, Basley and Horford, and I think that lineup will start and end the games. But what's going to happen in the middle is just going to be an absolute disaster, some mass of just putting in random players and not they're not random, they're NBA players, but you know, just really weird combinations of really young players and just kind of seeing what works, but also getting them the experience that they need. So that's kind of how I see them, kind of towing that line between getting Horford and Hill the minutes that they need but also getting young players the experience that they need. It's just that's kind of how I think it will go. But I think I don't know it all. Obviously all depends on how the roster changes throughout the season as well. Is there like, given the weirdness that's going to happen for the in between lineups, is there like maybe one that you're hoping they just test out that might be on the quirk of yr side. I really like Teo Maldon. I think that he so he's I guess I'll explain for those of you who are not following the Thunder. He's this guy from France who is like described as Tony Parker's protege and he's like trained under Tony Parker. Tony Parker really loves him. He's like a pretty talented guard, been playing in France. It was a really good pick for the Thunder in the second round that he was still available. So I think that he could be an exciting piece and possibly like long term, maybe they could recreate kind of the three guard lineup that they had versus like a three four guard lineup that they had at the end of last season and instead have Maldon in there instead of Hill And I think that could be interesting, but it depends. I haven't seen him play yet, so I don't know. Do you think that they'll go back to I know they did this like intermittently last year, Like we'll see, especially because I feel like the backup five rotation is pretty up in the air if we don't think that Pokashevski is going to spend a lot of time with the team. Do we see like Baisley at the five this year a bunch? Yeah? I think so, And that's why I'm hoping that he's you know, gotten bigger, put on some weight, gotten stronger. He'll be better in that in that role that way. But yeah, I do think we see him et cetera, as Wall as power forward. That's I'm an endliest lobby or for small ball lineup, So that's what that's what I want to see from them this season. Really small. It's just going to be Sta Dorit, Maldon, Baseley, George Hill, just that's that's it. I will be absolutely here for that. So this is I feel like this is an unfair question for this team specifically, but what's like a realistic wind tow and like Western Conference standings finished for this team, and it was like I just as a background for the listeners, I said Olivia you could interpret with this however you want, like looking at if the roster stays together, if they shake it up, or you could maybe you could even view it as like what are the thunder Like going to aim for? Like what is their ideal finished to the season at this point, given that they're so entrenched in the early stages of this rebuild. Okay, so this is kind of a long answer, that's okay. So for me personally, I was very much not about tanking and about the rebuild. I understand the necessity of it. I understand why it's strategic and why it works, and why if done properly, it doesn't necessarily relegate you to ten years of being terrible. So that's the biggest thing. And I think Sam Prescy knows. So we're a small market team in Oklahoma City. Just the fact that we are taking this one season has already angered so many fans who just their casuals they don't understand the strategicness of tanking. But I don't think that Sam Prescy can afford like ten years of being bad. So what what means to happen is I think they just need to commit full fullheartedly to this tank and be as bad as they possibly can, and we're talking like third worst in the league, so they can get their lottery pick because next season's draft class is phenomenal, way better than this year's draft class, and so I think I think they should just really commit to it and be awful this season and then work their way back up the next couple of seasons. But I think if they commit to that and they get a lottery pick this season, so maybe, like I don't know, is that like twenty wins. I don't know if that's enough to get you third worst in the NBA. There's some other teams that are also tanking, so we'll have to see exactly how many wins that is. But I think that should be the goal, just because if you're gonna tank, you just commit do it properly. If half way you end up like the Knicks, or you end up like Cleveland, and we just can't can't do that in Oklahoma City in my opinion, Yeah, I think twenty. So if they got twenty wins this year, that would be a twenty three win equivalent. I would say that's right up there. I like that you accounted. You know, the Knicks are just going to be awful. So, like you have to, They're probably not going to outbad the Knicks, but I feel like they have an opportunity. Maybe Cleveland would be the only other team that I look at and say, unless they're going to play Kevin Love like a ton and not move him, I guess the Pistons could be there. But bottom three feels realistic and so but I guess that's like predicated on we're probably assuming that two of Hill, Horford and Areza are just gone by the trade deadline, then right exactly, and that's what needs to happen. In my opinion, there's so many good players available in next year's draft, including Kate Cunningham from Oklahoma State Evan Mobley from my alma mater, USC. So those were two players that I would love it if the Thunder got there. That they've got to be really bad to get there. This is a super big question. But and you kind of touched on it, but like when you look at it right now, it feels like the Thunder are like, no, this is they're not aiming to have this be like a ten year rebuild. And you know after next season, shake Gil just Alexander is going to be extension eligible, so a reinvestment in their own players is coming. Is there a scenario though, where the process gets maybe more expedited, because I feel like they've at least sent the message where the next two to three years are just not going to be especially pretty. But like what happens if you know Shay as you mentioned, what if he's too good for them to be so bad this year where he enters the all Star conversation, they're sitting on all this draft equity. Maybe there's a star that becomes available. I'm not saying an aging one over the off season, but is there a scenario in which maybe they look to consolidate some of their equity to accelerate this timeline or do you really think it's going to end up staying on the more gradual course. So I kind of think it's already pretty expedited. I think that two to three years is not the worst thing. I think that's actually pretty good. But if there was a situation where just like Shia shows out and he's just all star level Shia, I think what they're more likely to do is who will still be bad the season obviously and then take a draft pick next season who's someone who they can win with now, someone who's ready to play now, not someone that they have to invest in like Poku or Darius Baisley. And after that, I don't I just don't see them really packaging all of their future to get an also like another star to play with SGA once from now. But I think it might mean them packaging more of their assets to you know, do more in the draft, or packaging those twenty twenty seven's they're really far away stuff to get someone decent for SGA. But I don't really see that happening because I think that Sam Presti's plans are much more long term, and I think that if he sticks with that plan as it is right now, I think the return will be better than one really good season of SGA and someone else. Is there any thing else that I missed about this team? I'm actually surprised at how quickly we went through it all. Maybe I was pushing the pace a little too quickly, But is there something that's undercovered or underrepresented about this team? Any player that we didn't touch on too much that your strong feelings about. Do you have any tie Jerome hot takes or something well? I feel I feel like we didn't feel like knot about lu Dort and how important he's going to be to the Thunder, And I almost honestly feel like we can never talk enough about how great Ludor is. It's just I don't know, He's just phenomenal. His full story from being undrafted to hitting seven threes in a game seven is just chef's kiss. But I think that, yes, Baisley is really important and he'll probably be the second the second option, but I think that lu Door he's going to be coming up. He's coming for that defensive player of the Year. I think he could be like Andre Robertson, except better at shooting, but just like right there in that deepoy conversation. And so that's what I hope for lu Dort the season, is that even if we as a team aren't that great, that he can really show off his defense. I don't want to be in a position that where we're relying on Ludort to hit his threes, because that's whisky. That was. I have no emotional investment in the Thunder, and that was stressful for me watching that the games that the six games that he was he averaged like eight point three three point attempts per game over the final six games of that series, and like just the wild swings where oh, he had an o of nine night, but he had the six of twelve night. And then it's like he was hitting them at the beginning. I can't if this was like Game two, maybe he was hitting them at the beginning but not at the end or whatever. It was like that was stressful for me, so I can only imagine like what it's like for a Thunder fan having to watch those moments. Yeah, it was stressful but also fun. And this season, I'm totally fine. If Ludret wants jack up threes, that's okay, but as long as he's still you know, making those defensive defensive steps in growing and that because he really does have the potential to be one of the bast defenders in the league. And I know that there are probably people that are listening to this right now that don't watch the Thunder that are like, what is this girl talking about? She's Homer, But I swear to you it is true. He has, you know, he's really great defensive instincts and can really guard the best player on any team in my opinion, and so I think that he's going to be someone to watch the season as well. Yeah, he's just so strong. I also don't think I acknowledged how young he was, Like I just's he's twenty one right now, will turn twenty two and April, Like that's still pretty young. What is what are you envisioned for him on offense? Though, Like I feel, you know, it's like the conversation with Bens him is like, imagine how good he could be if he could shoot, And it's like, well, that's not really a small thing that we can just imagine. So what is his like what are other things he can do on offense? Is this like is he strong enough to where maybe you use him as a just a smaller screener and he's diving towards the bassett. Do you like his finishing at the rim? Do you see someone who's going to be able to attack closeouts when they're giving him just a ton of space where he can get into the lane. Yeah. So I think that last season his like discrepancy between offense and defense really showed, partly because there are just so many other people that were on the team last year that we're better shooters than he. Was, so there's other options. But now with this Thunder team as constructed, I feel like he could take on a larger offensive role. But to me, and they didn't really use him this way last season, I think that means finishing around the rim, and I think that's probably the best place for him. Like you said, he's a he's a big guy. He's like not very tall, but he's like why like a brick wall, and I think that that could be he could use that too, is his advantage kind of like a Russell Westbrook or someone who just kind of bullies their way to the rim. Well, Olivia, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on and doing a deep dive into the Thunder with me. If you guys are not following Olivia on Twitter, remedy that immediately she's at Olivia punchall that it's at O L I v I A p anh Al. She is a senior writer and co hosts of the Cross Bolts podcast Excuse Me Again, bought today for Daily Thunder, So again, just follow her on Twitter and once more, Olivia, thank you so much for coming on. I really enjoyed the discussion. Thank you for having me. It was Fun Sugar, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime