What is kracklac him Felt, Thermine, Pierre Efforts, I am Dan Valley,
free you a very quick intro before we get into a fantastic podcast with
the one and only mister Grant Hughes. We had to call an audible mid
podcast. We still gave you close to I think it was like about a
buck an hour and forty something minutes of podcasting, but we had to punt
on. We normally record two podcasts at once and then do stat padding.
Grant was in some back pain, so we will have this hour and forty
minute podcast where were bouncing around the NBA talking Nick's Raptors, Hawks, Sons,
Clippers, Bulls, a lot of interesting teams, so we go in
depth on those, and then on Monday, I'll have a shorter episode up
for Grant and I will actually have some just stat spatting, stat padding specific
stuff. We just want to give you a note. We didn't get too
guests of players this week. We will get to those next week, not
for the Monday episode. Just again, Grant was in back pain. We
didn't want to go through the second episode and although he did offer, but
I just wanted to kind of shuffle him off and hopefully he can heal up.
So yeah, with that, let's just get into some nice hoops talk
with the one and only the Thermonuclear AF, the surgified fantabulous mister Grant.
What is krack alacin, fellow Thermo Nuclear afers, I am Dan Favalley coming
at you with my certified fantabulous Thermo Nuclear AF hobbled AF as well co host
mister Grant Hughes, who is powering through some back pain with us today and
so I very much appreciate it. We're here to just bounce around the league,
talk about some teams, some trending matters, rumors, news, what
have you. Before we get started, please remember to subscribe if you have
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to throw those ratings and reviews on Apple and ratings on Spotify. They do
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And finally join the Discord. That's the best way to get involved with
the mailbag. Have some discussions you can hear about, you know, maybe
Grant's back pain. You could see a hard Knox carpet in my office if
you join the discord. Just lots that you could hear about. What is
Dan gonna eat when he's allowed to eat again? You might even see pictures
of what Dan's gonna eat if you're in the discord. There's lots of stuff
going on in Discord, not the least of which, actually the most important
of which is all our loyal listeners, for whom we are forever grateful.
They drive those discussions in there, and you guys are all Honestly, I'm
a smarter host for having read and listen to some of the rebukes that people
have to some of our opinions. So get in Discord and yell at us
and maybe make Grant and I a little bit smarter, or at least myself.
Grant, how are you doing? I see I can't tell you're smiling
or grimacing. It's a little bit of both. I am standing up.
This is the first in the Hardwood Knox legacy a stand up podcast, because
we're a couple. I think of us as I think of you as a
stand up guy. I'm literally standing up because I have only stood or laid
down today other than I sat down to eat dinner. Hurt my back.
But I do think it gives a nice perspective anyone that's watching because normally the
shelf behind me you only see one level, and now you can see the
Draymond bobblehead behind me. I don't know how well that's going to age,
but it's still up for now. I'm gonna I didn't put that in our
outline today was the whole let's just start here. Sure, What did you
make of the whole Draymond comments from I think it was Kerr that said we're
giving him his space and he's giving us our space. I saw some people
say why would we want to hear about this non update and just the fact
that Anthony Slater included in his piece, and he has a very good pulse
on that Warriors team. I was kind of like, like, is there
what's going on here? I'm not sure how much that changes about what I
think of the whole situation, Like what you know what I mean, like
what what? What are you like what piqued your interest about it specifically?
Like maybe there's like maybe indefinite suspension means like we're looking at ways to kind
of like separate or is that the Yeah, because we just went from our
last podcast we recorded said that he could return to the team by this past
weekend that's coming on, and it sounds like he's not even around the team,
Like we're not about just playing engagement now, it sounds like he's not
even around the team. Yeah, I just I don't know. I think
from the start of it, we've definitely talked about this. How I just
know I'm kind of cynical and skeptical about the reason this is an indefinite suspension,
the reason everybody is saying the things that they are, you know,
how seriously really is Draymond taking it? How? You know? Really this
is the last This is the line that can't be crossed that like, is
it is it? I just I don't know. I just feel like the
goal is going to be too again admitting the cynicism involved in this take,
but like the goal is just kind of to keep him away for as long
as is necessary for anyone that might complain about him coming back too soon to
be satisfied. Whether that's like the League office, whether that's Adam Silver,
whether that's like broader public perception. That's just kind of how I looked at
it because it feels like that's what happened with John Morant both times. It
just feels like what this is because I don't know, like and maybe maybe
that's dead wrong. Maybe this is a situation where like he's seriously doing some
introspection and there's like actual, you know, real steps being taken to I
don't know, stop hitting use of nurkic like whatever, whatever whatever it is
that's causing that Rudy Gobert. Yeah, maybe he's trying to address that.
I don't know, but that that didn't like, I guess that didn't set
off any alarm bells for me. Okay, I could see how it would,
but yeah, I just I just kind of think I mean maybe the
you know, because really the more interesting question in all of this is,
like, I don't know. All along, they've said Steve Curse says it
every time something like this happens, Well, we need him to win,
you know, That's just what it is. Like, I don't know,
do we do Is that something we should scrutinize as to whether that's really the
case anymore? I don't know like that. The bigger picture is like this
guy's got four more years on his deal, Like how or what's what?
What? What's that look like? I don't know. Okay, I was
just k I just saw that. I was like, oh, that's we
went from he might be coming back tomorrow to we're giving him, we're giving
each other space. It was just it was just weird to me. We
had to go to Lebron's birthday party. I did see that. Oh okay,
so he's so you weren't around, and we haven't talked since we we've
talked, you haven't podcasted since the og Ananobi trade. Raptors send og Anobi
malchai ful impression to Chua to the Knicks for RJ. Barrett Emmanuel quickly and
Detroit's twenty twenty four second round pick. What did I've given my thoughts basically
twice over on this deal. We've seen a couple of games while we're in
the middle of Bulls Knicks are playing as we record this, but we've seen
one full game from Ojananobi. We've seen a couple with the new crew in
Toronto. What have you just made? What did you make of that entire
trade? I mean, yeah, so just going through it almost chronologically,
my very very first thought was, oh, this feels like an underwhelming return
for the Raptors, because I think I was still anchored to this idea,
you know, the four first So the Raptors are getting offers, like,
you know, tons of draft equity for Anonobian and we played into this too,
and everybody did of like, you know, Ananobe was the name I
guarantee we mentioned most as a trade candidate who would fit in destinations X,
Y Z, and like Hammer, Chris Bruschet was everywhere, right, Yeah,
you know, if you can't get Antonobe, it's Bouchet. But it's
just like so the first thought was, oh, that's like quickly embarrassed basically
like that that's all. And you know, there's a pick in there,
sure, But then like the second thought was like, well, we overvalued
og and we need to really rethink, like what this player type is actually
worth because not a star but fits everywhere, defends makes open threes. Like
we sort of like we lionize that player type because it's so easy to say,
well, he fits everywhere. And I wonder if the notion that someone
as good as Anonobe is at his job is worth is going to ever be
worth the three first or whatever. Now, like impending free agency changes a
lot, Like that's the variable that can't be ignored. But I wonder if
we need to recalibrate a little bit. I'm like, what it would cost
to get someone like that the next time we're in a situation that's similar to
this. But then ultimately it kind of I think it makes sense for both
teams. I know that's not like an exciting take, but like quickly really
should thrive in Toronto. Like he's I think he's a perfect fit for Scotty
Barnes. I'm sure everybody has said that, but like that's a pairing that
makes all the sense in the world to me, and Antonob is gonna be
I think exactly what the Knicks need at that position, So like, I
think I like it for both teams, even though at first, I will
say it seemed like, oh my god, that's all it took for the
Knicks to get anonob but I kind of the more I thought about it,
I kind of walked a little bit back from that. But uh, yeah,
I think I guess. I guess I'm curious too, Like what that
what the next contract looks like for him? There's all this talk of like,
well because of the CIA connection, and there's maybe there's a willingness to
take less. I don't know, but yeah, I guess, like my
only question is, and maybe you touched on this, but like what do
you think this says specifically, not getting a package of like a million picks
says about Toronto's kind of longer term plans, because like quickly is gonna be
good now? Barrett is gonna be what he is now and could be better.
I don't know. I want to say he's good now, but like,
does that mean that a Siakam trade is gonna be like we want three
actual players for him and not like dead salary and you know, three firsts
or whatever. And then just like how good does Toronto want to be?
How soon? Like that, it just it makes the raptors like harder to
predict. I guess going forward in like a pretty interesting way to me,
because maybe they just kind of want to be like, we're not gonna bottom
out, We're just gonna try to be at least decent with upside and see
how that works for us, you know. I so you mentioned something that's
interesting. You're right that maybe we romanticize the og annobe archetype so long as
they are making below market value. Because think about the context of how we
view Jeremy Grant changed as soon as he signed his next deal or even after
he signed the deal that first deal after leaving the Nuggets, and it took
a while before people thought that he was either properly paid or still still underpaid.
We're going through it with McHale Bridges right now. What's gonna happen with
his next deal? Or how are we gonna feel about Jalen Brunton if he
signs an extension this offseason and you see that that number is going to just
balloon. And so we tend to romanticize players in terms of pick value,
trade value, and just overall value because they're underpaid. We see all the
time with when the rookie deals become those rookie extensions. I think Tyre's max
he's gonna go through it this summer, and we've seen Tyler hero go through
it. The Raptors notion is the one that I focused on and I just
can't I've seen takes from all over that say, oh, well, now
Sakam's gonna stay. He'll probably sign a four year extension, or now this
guarantees that they'll move him. I don't know which side of the fence I
land on. I'd probably predict I said this the other day that they will
move him. But the fact that they did not go the pick route,
and I assume that the pick route, and it might have even been available
from New York, but I assume the pick route in some form was available.
It's the two things that I question. I think it one does prove
that even if they trade Siakam, they're going to be interested in competing now
because the path to like bottoming out, bottoming out is now a lot harder
if you view quickly in Barnes the core, because they're always they should be
solid then or at least not solid. But you know, the thirteen and
nineteen team rather than like the two and twenty one team, Right, you
can't get that bad with those two guys there. And and I also think,
like I wonder if I don't. I honestly don't believe they were afraid
of his next contract so much as he just didn't want to be on the
Raptors anymore. And that's why, because I don't think the Knicks give up
quickly if they believe that Ananobe is gonna cost forty million dollars a year.
Like my guess would be if we had to say is he gonna get it?
Would not I'll frame it this way. I would not be shocked if
he gets less than the equivalent of the twenty five percent max per year.
So it's like thirty four million instead of thirty five and a half, let
alone forty two point six. Yeah, well, so what is I'm just
thinking of like recent comps like what's Jaden McDaniel's got four for like one twenty
something or one thirty something, I can't remember now. And I think even
look, you have to look at because I've always skewed towards I think o
Jannoby's a great fit for the new and a very good basketball player. But
I've said on this podcast, I think he is overrated because of the limitations
that he has on the offensive end. And when you look at Devin Vessel
like that, like that number of what was that four in what was his
contract forward? I think he was in the one thirties two or something like
that. Yeah, like that player is more dynamic five years, one hundred
and forty six that player. So that's an average annual value. And granted
he's not eligible over the same max that Nobe is, but that that average
annual value checked in under thirty for him, and he's a more dynamic player
on offense, and I do think that offense is more valuable than defense as
dynamic as og Anobi is. And I guess you can look at and say,
okay, well Jeremy Grant got the five and one sixty. That's even
fine, though, like that's less than the like five sixty is not even
the twenty five percent max right now. So I firmly believe he's gonna come
cheaper that people are just assuming he's gonna cost like two hundred million dollars or
the four year max of one ninety one ninety two. The Raptors are the
team, although I do have some thoughts on the Knicks because woj, I
don't know if you so, we'll get them in a second. But I
don't know what. I don't have a feel for what the Raptors are doing
now, other than I think that they're not trying to tread water so much
as like retool and recalibrate and reorient on the fly. And I don't know
how that pans out because I don't know, you know, Mark Stein mentions
like Memphis and Dallas might sneak into the sweepstakes, and I love Memphis for
Siakam just out of the curiosity of seeing him with Triple J their package,
though it would have to be all picks and like some of these weird salaries.
So I just don't know. I think I know what the Raptors are
trying to do, I don't understand how they're successfully going to do it.
Yeah, Like, what is the team that's coming in? Is it Atlanta?
Another team that we're gonna talk about, Like are they gonna come in
with the Godfather offer of Well, we got Jalen Johnson and we got bo
Don macdonovich, and I just I'm so that's where I matter with the Rappers.
I think they're trying to reorient on the fly, and I think it's
gonna be unsuccessful. Yeah, I just I don't know. I I it's
it's so it's interesting to me, at least for the for the simple reason
that this is not the package that anyone really thought Anonobe was gonna bring back.
Well, it does come down to sorry to interrupt there, but I've
grappled with this and I really want to know your thoughts. Does it actually
just come down to how much or how they viewed RJ Barrett? And quickly,
because it's everyone knows Quickly's good. But the two things are, well,
he's about to get paid and how does he fare when he is actually
a starter? And I think the latter question is not that big of a
deal because we saw him close games for the Knicks, not often, but
he also filled in as a starter a bunch last year, and so like,
this is someone who could the playoff questions are fine, but that was
also his first taste of it. So like, but like the RJ Barrett
stuff, is I view him as a net negative deal at the moment the
Raptors seemed to treat him in this trade. If you told if I told
you that they view RJ. Barrett as a net positive or a net neutral
asset, does that change how you look at their return it, Well,
it has to, I think, yeah, I you know, we've talked
about Barrett a lot. I think there are a lot of valid criticisms,
just the scoring inefficiency and just but I think too, like it seemed pretty
clear that the Knicks were just kind of the wrong team for him to be
successful on for what his skill set is, and so maybe that's different in
Toronto. That's like, I'm not sure there's a ton of reason to believe
that's the case. Like the hometown angle is like not, it's just like
a zero factor for me. That doesn't mean anything other than like maybe that
he'll be like well liked and maybe get along term page. It's like cool
to see him talk about it. It's cool, but it's not like,
but it can't affect your evaluation of like what Toronto got. I think I
guess it's possible just given his youth, given you know, the change of
scenery, not just for change of scenery's sake, but like maybe thing will
be a little different for him in Toronto, although like the more every time
I start to talk myself into that, it's like, well, he's still
a guy that just like bowls his way to the basket, and like that's
that's when he's best. And like, I don't know how much should he
have the ball if Quickly is running the team and Scottie Barnes is kind of
the guy that's doing that's the same kind of thing as you would have Barrett
doing. So I'm interested in the fit. I think there's a I guess
I sort of view him as a net negative too, but I think there's
a chance that could change and then maybe this looks better for the Raptors.
A lot of rides on Quickly being like basically becoming his per thirty six numbers,
you know, like a lot is a lot rides on that, especially
that he could be the best player in this deal, which is not outlandish,
but he's risky. Yeah that's possible. I mean, like you know,
Anonobe, I think the idea behind getting him for the Knicks is like
he has a chance to be a necessary piece on a team that has to
win lots of playoff rounds because you just need that type of guy to guard
Jason Tatum or whatever whoever you end up with that like across several rounds.
Like he's the anenobe type is like a necessary component pretty much of a team
that is trying to win a championship. That's not really true of quickly,
I don't think or bear itt so like it's kind of a you know,
a weird way. It's kind of a flex by the Knicks, Like it's
easy to just go get a guy that's good and fits and you know,
has is represented by your top executive son, Like that's easy. But it
is kind of it's interesting to me that like this is a he's kind of
a put you over the top piece, but the rest of the Knicks roster
is not like near enough the top for that to be his function. But
maybe they're going to get there with another trade. Well, and that's so,
and I promise we'll talk about teams other than the Raptors and Nicks,
which have been headliners on the past few podcasts. To wrap up my final
Raptors, thought what I would do if I was Toronto and they might still
do this, I would try to find a trade for Yakub Pertle, and
I would keep Pascal Siakam if that's if this is what you're actual trying to
redo, and then you can figure out maybe it's more Siakam at the five,
or we're putting a different type of center around him, that would I
think that is actually the best route for them. I just don't know if
that's what they're thinking type deal, because they really the barn compairing is weird,
and you throw RJ. Barrett and quickly into there in the equation.
But Siakam was great in that first game they all play together, but then
there were moments in crunch time where like he's not touching the ball, so
that gulds awkward. If I were running the team, though, that's what
I would look to do. Your quick thoughts on that, No, I
think that's I think. I agree. I just like, do you have
to give stuff up to get off purdle? Now? Like are you gonna
like what what? What is? What are you getting back? He can't
just dump four years and seventy eight or eighty million or whatever it is for
like a non stretch, non switch center, Like who's who's Who's clamoring for
for that. You know, maybe there's some teams, but like I just
wonder if, like Siakam, you'll get stuff for I worry that Pearl is
gonna cost you stuff that you don't really have to spare. Yeah, I
mean that's a good point. I mean like maybe I don't know, and
he hasn't even been a good enough Rim protector this year to say like would
New Orleans be okay with him as sort of you know, we're gonna play
a lot of Nance or maybe Zion at the five, but you have Jonus
already, So that is a good point. I don't know. I don't
know what the Yaka Purtle market. I don't think you'd have to give up
stuff to get off him. But it is kind of like, well,
where where's he going? Yeah, where's the landing spot that wants to pay
him that? I mean, it's not like a crazy salary, but it's
like it's a decent chunk, even even with the cap going up. Did
you see onto the New York Knicks again? And this isn't gonna really be
og I don't nope, really did you see the woj bit from NBA today?
He's only apparently been posting on threads, which I might be a bad
harbinger for Twitter users, which man, it does suck, just as an
aside, just to have built that following, Like we have five thousand followers
on a hard one Knox and I don't even know what I have on my
own personal account. It's more than that. I think it's double, but
like they don't grow anymore, Like our tweets are just I'm promoting on Twitter,
and I'm just like why, Like I mean, it would maybe if
like we could get people to just bump our own, but I don't know
how many people are still going to see it. So just sad to see
the death of what was just like, look, it was a driving force
for like both our careers, even if you weren't using it as much.
Like it was this source of information. Instant reactions to the utility of it
is like so diminished now just looking for like even like I don't know what
I was working on today, trying to find a highlight clip of somebody doing
something to like embed in a in a in an article, and it's just
like, how is it so hard to find like Tyrese Haliburton jump pass,
Like it used to be you get you know, a million of them with
perfectly edited video clips right away now and now it's like right wing properly.
You searched Tyre's Haliburton jump pass and right wing propaganda on the screen right right.
No, but the Wojes thing you're saying, did you see it?
You referred to it? No, I don't think so. The Murray stuff
basically right longer. And he didn't mention Murray specifically in the clip that I
saw, But I'll lay it out this for anyone who didn't see it,
and you can go check it out. I'm sure it's floating around right wing
Twitter somewhere. Just search Donald Trump and maybe the whirler Yeah, account for
it. He basically said the nix's plan is to acquire another shot creator this
season, and then they're going to go through the playoffs and wait for someone
to be discontent with the way the playoffs end and then asked for out,
and they will go after that player who they will still have the picks to
get and might use said shot creator that they just acquired to land that said
star who asked her out. And so I'm listening to this, I might
have butchered the point. I underscored the main point, so I might have
butchered the actual phrasing the whole thing just screen. Well, they're gonna trade
for Jejonte Murray and they're prepared to move him again over the sun. That's
the weirdest thing in the like. So now it's like, uh, is
this like Minority Report where wooj is like the pre cog that is like they're
gonna get him, but then also they're gonna flip him because he's gonna be
upset, Like what what kind of reporting is this? I don't understand how
you're because I'm like, what is the other unless he's like kind of referring
to bow Don Bodanovitch, which maybe they're just both involved in the trade,
or is he referring to Boyan Bodanovich where it's like to get a stop gap
type thing. But when he should shot creator, I immediately went all right,
so it's not gonna be a big or someone who might infringe the like
Boyan Bardanovich should really play the four. I don't want to see him playing
next to Julius Randall and then h you know, Isaiah Hartenstein. And so
I was just like, well, it's Murray, Mitchell's not on the trade
market. I still don't love the fit with Brunton anyway, and so I
want your thoughts on this, well two things, One what do you think
of like that overall plan? And two how do you feel about the Murray
Brunton fit now that IQ and Barrett are out of the equation? And then
also three to circle back to one, am I wrong? I've been thinking
that this is kind of an ingenious plan. No, I'm not saying Murray's
the guy, but if you're viewing it as like there's a chance because Murray's
extension kicks in next season at twenty four point eight million, YEP. If
i'd ask you right now whether Manuel Quickly is making more or less than that,
it's already less than RJ. Barrett. But do you think IQ will
be making more than twenty five million over under I'm going to evade that.
I think I think he'll be making I mean right there, So I'll just
I'll just say more because it might be, but it's going to be right
in the neighborhood. But so you're asking, So you're asking, is it
an ingenious plan to acquire a players they are contented because you've lost in the
playoffs and want to leave and then trade this discontented person who you are banking
on wanting out, Like no, no, no, no, no,
So I'm sorry if I s plent it wrong. They want to acquire a
shot creator, Yes, bring him the answer for this season, and they
will if they have to use him to then acquire someone else who's unhappy about
the way the playoffs ended. And that kind of screamed like, so we're
just talking about you're trying to send to Jonte Murray out for Joel and Beid.
It is just getting out the entires that duel. Okay, so it's
not Yeah, that makes a little that's a little closer to ing genius than
what I thought you were saying, Like let's get this guy. He'll get
pissed off for sure, and then we'll trade him. Like that's not a
good plan. Uh No, that's interesting. So, uh the Murray thing
just looking so you you laid out the number Murray's going to make about twenty
five next year, twenty seven to twenty nine, thirty one million dollars player
option the fourth year of this new deal, which which to me like that
really feels about like what Quickly is going to get, Like if if his
numbers go like twenty five, twenty seven, twenty nine, thirty one million,
like that's not going to shock. I think that's close to what it's
going to probably take. I guess maybe a little less. I don't know,
yeah, because I think people forget restricted free agency is so prohibitive now
other teams to where it's like I I will probably land lampooned teams. I
didn't go after Austin Reeves and poison Pill in this summer. I'm gonna do
the same thing sands any poison Pill with Quickly, where it's like, well,
if the magic have cap space or like, just go throw it,
go throw it quickly, and if they match, fine, you burnt your
cap space for a few hours, You're okay. So just just with specifically
focusing on Murray as as the guy you put next to Brunson, I don't
think there's enough evidence to suggest that he's all that different from Quickly in terms
of like value and even really like player type because if you just like Quickly
doesn't play as much. But if you go sort them both for per thirty
six, like Murray and Quickly are like shockingly close with key dident like you
know, twenty one twenty two points per thirty six, like four or five
assists and rebounds each per thirty six. But Quickly is the better shooter.
He gets up more threes, he gets to the line more often. Uh,
Murray has a big edge and steals. I guess if you care about
that, But I think Quickly is demonstrated he's a very good you know,
defender against unless you get too much size against him, which Murray doesn't really
guard up that much. So like if you didn't like the idea of paying
Quickly to be next to Brunson and thought, you know, the mix just
isn't quite right, Like unless you get Murray from like last year in San
Antonio when he was really viewed as more of a defensive guard than an offensive
guard, which has flipped in Atlanta, then I don't understand the logic of
quickly out Murray in like great obviously, like you do quickly out because you're
getting Anonobe. But the just those two are not different enough to me to
justify the Knicks thinking Murray as someone that like really adds a ton I get
like Quickly's gone, so yeah, Murray would replace Quickly, but it's not
like I don't. It doesn't make sense to me why one would be so
preferable over the other. If you if if moving quickly was also about like
we don't want to pay him what it's going to cost, then bringing in
someone who is gonna make similar money and does similar stuff is weird to me.
I agree to an extent, and but there are a few things where
I'm diff and I think you can look at it in some of would you
rather have Jalen Brunson Emmanuel Quickly and RJ. Barrett or Jalen Brunson, de
Jontay Murray and Ogananoby Obviously the latter, right, like that's that's the way
to look at it. You're looking at it that way, And then the
differentiation. I do think Emmanuel Quickly should end up being the more valuable offensive
player. As good as Jeantay Murray has been this year, he's the better
jehan De Murray shooting like forty percent off the dribble threes, thirty seven percent
on catch and shoot threes. Emmanuel Quickly has been better historically as a catch
and shoot guy. They both like to get to the in between, but
quickly as more of kind of that like sudden floater, whereas like Murray wants
to kind of pull up and go with the emotions. Murray's a much better
passer, I would say, than Quickly at this stage. And I also,
I know he said he doesn't defend up, but he does defend stars,
and like Emmanuel Quickly has defended stars. And part of the reason he's
not defending stars is he's not starting. But like you, Ken, Murray
six' five and pretty long, so we can guard up. And it's
also defensive role in Atlanta is so much different from if he's in New York
with og Anenobi on the roster. And then also even hart and like,
here's a serious question, are Hartenstein and Mitchell Robinson both better defensively than Clin
Capella At this point he might be Now yeah, I mean really, it's
a conversation at least so I I think I understand the logic now where it's
like, well, if Quickly was gonna it took quickly, like we needed
to give up quickly to get og Now this is the path we're gonna follow.
I'm now more intrigued by the Murray fit than I was when we had
the initial report before the og Anonobe trade that prominent members of the Knicks organization
view him as the ideal trade target. Now the idealism here that's still doing
a lot of work. But I think that the contract structure, if he's
making a little bit more than quickly, that I think his we know what
his deal is, I guess is what I'm saying, and like quickly there
would have been a trade restriction on him this summer unless you broke her to
sign in trade. And then also just like the mysterity of not knowing the
number there, you know what the number is for Murray, and I think
it's a contract that unless you're trying to suck, what team wouldn't want the
Murray car? Like that's just not I know his value is kind of divisive
at this point, but I think that that's a good contract and so you
can fold it in to the next deal. So it's almost like a to
me, it's almost like a twisted, warped Sam Presty way of thinking where
it's I'm thinking they're looking at Fournier right now and they're like, well,
we're trying to figure out a way to keep this expiring salary, like to
roll it over into a trade asset, but maybe also from someone who could
play for us right now, because Fournier is not really going to. I
don't know if it works out for them. I think what makes me more
uncomfortable would be two things. What is the cost of getting Murray? I
honestly, I don't know, Like you're not is it like you're probably gonna
have to give up some picks or pick in that, But if you're keeping
all your own picks and all your own distance picks, then yes, you're
start still dry. You are now running thin on and they were running thin
to begin with because quickly he was about to get paid. R J.
Barret already got paid. Wasn't playing well. You don't have any like tangible
blue chippers. There's quitting grimes and that's how it. Yeah. No,
I think if you're Atlanta, if you're willing to take back a package that's
mostly like Fournier is the main salary and then picks like that would be and
maybe this is what Atlanta should do, Like that would be a move you
make in anticipation of like we're really gonna strip this thing down because the idea
was that Murray was kind of just, oh, this is the piece we
need to really get, you know, to minimize Trey Young's weaknesses, and
we're gonna take a step forward, and like that's just not where the Hawks
are now. So maybe maybe that would make sense in that context, Like
as a we're either not saying they're gonna trade Tray if they trade Murray,
like probably they just you know, rebuild the entire core around Trey I guess,
but like, I think you probably need a player back, you know,
in most realistic constructions of this, because it doesn't seem likely that Atlanta,
even if it should, is gonna get like go beyond like Murray as
the first in a series of moves that were you know, kind of really
going to change the face of this roster. That just feels like a very
non Atlanta thing to do. So if it's like money, it might be
a very Atlanta I think, well, yeah, it's the money site,
sure, But if it's not fourty A and picks, like what even else
is there? Like how do you even well you're mentioning a player would have
to be Grimes at that point, and that would make some sense because if
Murray's coming in, you have de Vincenzo, you have Josh Hart. Still
his playing time could be repressed in that regard, and the Knicks might They
did extend Duce McBride, so they might view it as like we're gonna go
forward with this. But then Atlanta also has to consider, well, we
have to pay Jalen Johnson and we have to pay Quenton Grimes as well.
It feels very makeshift, and maybe that's the I want to wrap up on
the Knicks very quickly. The part of this plan that makes me uneasy.
What is this star that you're waiting on to ask out? Because I really
don't think it's gonna be Joelle Embiid in Philly. No, And so it's
like I don't want to I don't want to see them acquire de Jontay Murray
just to try and fold it over into Donovan Mitchell. That doesn't do anything.
I Actually I like the Murray fit with Brunson probably better than the Mitchell
fit with Brunson, because that is not as eminently attackable on defense. Yeah,
certainly for the price too, right, because the murder that is like
meaningfully less than Mitchell's make and what Mitchell is making and will make like on
on his next one. So if they're thinking it's McHale Bridges, that's like
fine, does he fit the bill of a I mean, if you had
Ogno we McHale Bridges on the same team, that's pretty exciting. I last
thing, I know, we keep trying to move off the knicks, but
like, so Julius Randall has been good, like is it? I still
get the feeling of like, I just don't feel comfortable with needing him to
make tough two point jumpers off the dribble, sometimes to bail the offense out
like this, this is like a four year old take. But every Knixt
game I watch, that's still a thing that kind of feels necessary. Is
is is the Ananobe acquisition and all this other talk? Is there any where
where do you put the like the likelihood of a Randall move at some point,
like relative to what's happened lately? Is it higher? Is it lower?
Is Randall just like a fixture forever? Like what where is he in
the organization? Now? One? I know you say your take is a
four year old take, but even as he's contending for a third All NBA
spot and again I wouldn't predict to get it, but the minimum games played,
that's going to do what it's happened. He could be a three time
All NBA player. It couldn't be such a fascinating player to look back on
in a few years. I don't know what to do with them. So,
but your your take isn't old, it's on point, because even when
he's good, it's you're always waiting for the other shoot to drop. There's
it's with him, it's mountaintops and gullies. There's never liken in between.
And here's where I land. If the fact that they have og Ananobi now
who can very easily just B or four, sure, maybe he should go
out and trade de Jonte Murray. My guess is that they're then going to
use Julius Randall as sort of this hybrid. We'll look at this expiring salary
matcher slash really good player who has maybe three NBA selections over the past half
decade, and that's who they're gonna use to try and get that next player,
because they have another creator in Murray, another guy who can take up
Randall's minutes. And then maybe they'll be targeting either a different type of big
or more likely just another type of wing to pair with Ojan Andobi. That
is where I would land on it. I also recognize that Randald's actually been
really good, and so if other teams are only gonna view him as a
salary matching tool, like you're working from a deficit if you're the next at
this point, because this dude is really whether you like it or not,
or comfortable with it or not, he's incredibly pivotal to what they're doing.
He is, and he's not a universal fit. So it's like I said,
like, who's the team clamoring for peerl Like who's out there saying we
need Randall is the guy we need, we need a ball dominant for Like,
I don't understand who's saying that. Would you hate him? I mentioned
this as a joke to the Uncontested Fellas, but they said it was or
at least Jacob Niffen did said it was interesting that Julius Randall on OKC wouldn't
be like he's so ball dominant, But if you're replacing some of the Giddy
minutes, and Giddy's been good, you'd have to put him in a smaller
role. I don't think it's like a good long term fit. So I
don't like it. Yeah, I can't wrap my head around that one he
has. I hope I'm not. I hope I'm not. I keep calling
him an expiring contract after this year, but I M, let's let's see
if I'm even right there. I think there might be an appeal where like
let's look at a Raptors type situation. Yeah, because he has that player
option for twenty twenty five, which I expect him to decline. So like,
if you're you're like a team that's kind of in transition, you're not
looking to suck, and you need someone that's gonna eat innings and also be
like serviceable and good for a year maybe too, Like there are worse things
to do than have Julius Randall there. So that's just my gut. I
just don't. I don't without knowing at this point, do I fully expect
them to just acquire to Chante Murray. That Like, that's initially where I'm
mad. But we've talked about it enough to where it's just in it it's
bound to happen now. Uh, but we haven't. We've talked about the
Hawks a little bit, and I want to talk about them a little bit
more because they're sort of like Raptors South at this point. I don't know
what they're doing or even necessarily what they should do, and they're probably behind
the eight ball compared to the Raptors. Just because at least Scottie Barnes gives
you access to all these different timelines. I'm not sure that Trey Young does
the same thing, and I think you need to build out your roster with
more rigid specifications if he is your tent pole star than if Scotty Barnes is
your central building block. Right now, I just I look at this team.
They are terrible on defense. They don't seem to have any interest after
they missed a shot in getting back. In transition, there's possessions of beauty,
and most of them involved Jalen Johnson, And then there's just possessions where
the ball doesn't really move even close to the free throw line and Trey Young
is chucking up this big or this ultra long three pointer. And you know,
there are nights where the like and the offense is super efficient, but
then there are knights where it's just also super maddening. Yeah, and there's
no flow. It feels your turn my attorney or something less than that.
They have good players on this team. Uh, But I'm also just like,
well, should you be trying to capitalize the value of this players?
And they're worried about paying people and they've already paid bumped up by Donovich.
He's not making too much. But you've paid Trey, You've paid Murray,
you've paid Hunter. Now you gotta pay Jalen Johnson, you gotta pay Sadie
Bay, Cliff Capela's under contract for a little bit. You haven Yaka kung
Wu, who's on a reasonable deal. I just don't know what they're doing
or what their endgame is. And it seems like everyone other than Trey Young
is available, So what is the pivot for this team? And like,
I know some people will be annoyed that we're focusing transactionally on them, but
everything feels so transactionally driven by them, even down to the roster that's in
place right now, because of how they handle the the John Collins stuff.
I just what is what is his team doing? Yeah? I think like
I don't know, Maybe we should do an episode on this at some point,
but the Hawks are way up there in the like the whole is less
than the sum of the parts thing because you list it off like I don't
know, seven or eight guys that you just objectively you would say, well,
that guy can that guy helps the team, that guy helps a team,
Like you know, Bugdanovich is like just maybe the best. Maybe he
should be six Man of the Year if you had the vote right now,
and is like would start for lots and lots of teams, and you know,
Jalen Johnson's really exciting. DeAndre Hunter I think has mostly been a disappointment,
but that's another like salary thing, like he got his you know,
post rookie deal, and now it's like, oh it's not good enough anymore.
You know, a Kong Wu has got his deal, but like Capella
is just still there, like that that was supposed to be like a torch
passing thing or gonna trade Capella. They got all the guys. I think,
like is it wrong to just say that because Trey Young is the type
of player he is, which is just a phenomenal, Like he alone means
your offense can be very good. He alone also means you will just you're
gonna spend every game hiding him defensively trying to get everybody else that plays with
him to give an effort defensively because he doesn't. And he's your best player
and highest paid player. So the tone setting element is tricky. Is it
the case now that you just if you're gonna have Trey Young on the team,
you have to sort of treat it like the MAVs have tried a couple
times with Luka Doncic, and it's just like everyone around him has to be
a good defender that can make open threes, and we're just gonna play that
way, like that's that's just what the roster construction has to be. And
so in that situation, like de John Tay Murray doesn't really have a place
because he hasn't been that good of a defender and he's not a huge volume
three point shooter diddo for you know, even Hunter didto for like Bogdanovic,
he's deplicative. We need to use that salary slot and value of him to
turn him into like twenty twenty one Dorian Finney Smith and like, you know,
things like that. We just need a bunch of those guys around Trey
Young or this can't work, Like maybe that's where we are now, because
you see, you know, it's a unique player type, and it's it's
different than Luca in Dallas because Young is small, and it's just harder,
I think sometimes to work around that with him being at the point of attackle
all the time. Although you could argue that because Luca has to guard threes
and fours, like that's a worse spot to be deficient in. Defensively,
Luca is a better defender than Trey Young just because of his size. I
don't know. It does raise a bunch of questions about like what should the
team around Trey look like? And then subsequently like is he a good enough
player for us to be building a specific type of team around? Like that's
really the Galaxy brain question is like, you know we're talking about all these
other players. Is the issue just like maybe it's really hard or impossible to
build a consistent big time winner around Trey Young because of how he plays,
Like, I don't know. I think that that's what makes the Hawks so
fascinating is because like you could try to solve the problem really drastically, or
you could like tinker a little bit and see, you know what kind of
player mix changes things, and you've you've outlaid the problem really well. But
I then also wonder, Okay, there is this rigidity to how you have
to build your roster around him. Have they ever come close to effectively doing
that? Well? So, as I was saying that, I was trying
to think back on who was on the team that made the East Finals with
him, and it's like mostly these guys, So I don't know what to
do with that, and it's and even what makes it even more confusing is
the names that they have actually been linked to, because they're at the stage
where it feels like other teams are linked to their players, where it's,
oh, team X will be interested in by Donovic and I'd be like,
twenty nine teams should probably be interested him if he's available. There's been rumors
about, well, which team would be willing to take on Clint Capella and
that that list is definitely dwindling, and it's well Dejonta Murray and and the
Knicks or de Jonte Murray and I haven't have we heard of John Murray link
to any other team that they think? Maybe? Is that me though?
Who mentioned that Lakers could have been some idiot online probably could have been.
Yeah, so me. But like, the only players we really heard about
them targeting is Pascal Siakam, which doesn't do anything to clarify the direction of
this team because I don't love his his sit with Trey Young, I think,
is I mean, you're looking for to kind of dilute the ball dominance.
You don't do that, and you're getting a worse shooter if you're going
from Murray to Siakam, assuming Murray is moving out in another deal or at
least headed in another team, and then you have to pay, So what
do you do? And he's gonna probably get more than Murray did. I'd
be shocked if he didn't more than Murray for sure. Yeah. So I'm
just like, I don't understand. I wouldn't mind seeing and Trey, but
like, what is this the like what is the bigger, the larger plan
here? And I can only come to the conclusion that the front office doesn't
have one. Well, I mean I can sympathize a little bit because I
imagine they were caught off guard by this team not improving significantly this season,
right, because like that it seemed like they're they're over under was an easy
over for a lot of people. I know, I thought that the Hawks
were gonna be you know, high forties probably if not better than that in
terms of winterital and like they just haven't been. So I think, like
I understand why the front office could kind of be looking at each other thinking
like, well, shit, like what now, right, because like this
everything pointed towards just a better season, and it's been hasn't just been stagnant,
it's been worse. I mean, their their record, they're on pace
to lose more games than last year. So like, yeah, I don't
know. I wonder if, like, in a situation like this where it
seems like so intractable, like is way, like have you seen anything from
the Hawks? This is like a rhetorical question because I haven't. That suggests
like maybe we just give it this year and wait it out, Like maybe
we just see like if there is there a surge in the second half or
something, because it's like the alternative is we've just laid out how tricky it
all is, Like there's I mean, I don't know what the fix is.
So maybe maybe it's just like I don't know, do nothing and address
it in June or July or something. I don't know, Yeah, I
don't. I mean Jalen Johnson had a behind the back dunk against the Thunder
tonight as we record this, so maybe that is that the flash point.
And there I think they're. They were when I turned it off to come
podcasts with you, they were. They were thumping the Thunder and let's see
if they finished the job. They did well, they didn't thump them,
but they won one forty one to one thirty eight because it's the Hawk's defense.
Second nut of a back to back for the Thunder, though, they
Yeah, coming off a game against Boston, I went down to them.
I'm just saying, though they were killing them at one point. So no,
I haven't seen anything from them that would make me say let's give it
the season. You'll actually know what I have seen that. I mean say
this literally all the alternatives on the trade market to where it's no, we're
not stripping it down. We're just foldly miss into another weird iteration experiment version
of let's see we can be aggressively mediocres right right, Yeah, they're they're
I don't know that. I'm not enthused. I would say about like what
the prospects are for this team. But like again, you can definitely trade
Bogdanavi's for positive value. You can definitely trade Murray for positive value. I
think Jalen Johnson I want to hold onto him if I'm Atlanta, but like
as throwing him in with bigger salaries could really get you something potentially, but
I don't want to do that m without giving up Jalen Johnson. If I'm
Toronto, I'm like, I have to have Jalen Johnson or that's it.
You never know what the offers are going to be. They got rid of
Achua and if you're gonna get rid of Siakham and you got rid of Adaobi,
Like who's you have? Scotty Barnes, Like, who's this bigger forward
on your team? Now? Just Auto Porter Junior just ready to get him
out there? Which team? Which team do you want to head to next?
I want to talk Grizzlies a little bit, just because this is the
rare case where there's a before and after for this team. And the before,
you know, obviously, the before is when John Morant was suspended and
the Grizzlies were snake bit by injuries and just like full stop, one of
the most disappointing teams in the league, and so I wanted to look at
just mostly out of curiosity, like because basically, if you did the numbers,
they got to win at close to a fifty win pace. I know
that they they just lost as we're recording this, so this will change slightly,
but they needed a fifty win pace to get to five hundred, which
you know is to go forty one and forty one, which is as you
look at it right now, like that might do it for like at ninth
or tenth spot in the West and get into the play in, which would
be a pretty like significant accomplishment given how bleak things have been so far.
Modest as it is to say a team that's won fifty plus two years in
a row could really scramble and make the last two playing spots. Maybe it's
like the type of thing where if they lose four of five or even like
three or four, like at any point that just like I'm no longer paying
attention to them. Probably, But so with Jaw's first game was twelve,
was a December nineteenth. Since then, Memphis, I had him at five
and three, they're five and four now five and three when he in the
games he's played. Their best win was probably that one over New Orleans the
day after Christmas. They've had some pushovers. So like even the solid record
since Jaw's return is a little if he the twenty eighth in offense, ninth
in defense since Moran came back, which is a little like, I don't
know, I buy the defense being ninth or better with their personnel. Twenty
eighth on offense is just like shooting variants and small samples. So like Moran's
not hitting his threes, Marcus Smart stills in hitting his threes. Lukenar came
back when he was hitting his threes. Well, if he plays, he
does. But so to that point, lineup's coming into this recently lost game,
I believe to Toronto on the third lineups with Jaw, Bain Smart and
Jared Jackson Junior were minus eight point one net rating. Small samples obviously,
but the only reason for that is the offense has been horrible. It's like
ninety four points per one hundred, which is you know, in the modern
era is like unfathomably, you just can't you almost can't play that poorly on
offense. Yeah, with five NBA players on the floor, so like and
the defense is one or two point five, which again the small sample caveats
should apply to both ends. But it's just like I think that might be
about right, Like that group could defend that way. That's or at least
that's closer to real. So like I'm kind of I'm still sort of optimistic,
and again optimistic being you can play at a fifty win pace for the
next three months or whatever, and you know, like because you've done that
with roughly this team, and if Marcus Smart is anything other than terrible and
can be healthy, then I don't know, Like I just think the offense
needs to be a priority in any move they make. And I wonder trying
to like sort of wave to this, like what okay, so what like
they're better with jaw, they need to be really good to have a postseason
of any kind? What do you do? Can you flip Smart? And
can you package him with like Aldama or Zion Williams? Is anybody interested in
that? And you can get like a two way wing or like a big
that would make more sense next to Jared Jackson junior, like like Wendell Carter.
Is that that guy? Like do you go stop gap with like Nick
Vucevich, do you go stopt with Valentunas like you, how are you getting
if you're if you're the Grizzlies. I think I think you outlined it is
that. I do believe he doesn't fit the archetype of the bigger forward.
But because of what Toronto will have been sending out, it's can you get
one of sort of those forwards, those younger forwards, not Zaia Williams,
but let's say Santi al Dama Smart and then the rest of the salary make
it work. I'm sure Toronto would insist on Luke Canard, but they're probably
gonna be more aptive, you know, like we'll give you Brandon Clark and
Marcus Smart and Santi Aldama. I think that number gets you to that.
I don't think that's enough. But I don't hate Siakam there because if you
have Jackson's space on the floor that you can you can get you are I
do wonder if he would become discrolled with like, all right, well my
offensive role is just buried. We got Bain Sakham and John Moran. Where's
that headed? Yeah? For you? I like, I don't know if
I like the end result, but I like it enough to where I would
really want to see it right, and I think I think you do have
to just skew offense if you're gonna improve this roster, which is like weird
because the big offseason move was getting Marcus Smart in there to replace Stillan Brooks.
As you're trying to preserve the defense. I just I think if you
have Jaron Jackson, and you know, Jaw's not great, but you have
enough around him, your defense is gonna be fine. So it's just like,
how can you because I guess if you've got to play at a fifty
win pace, you need to have a net rating that's you know, plus
three plus four probably, So it's like it's all got to come on offense.
The defense will be there. You just have to be above water offensively,
and they just haven't been yet. So yeah, they're They're an interesting
team to think of as like a trade candidate because you might would you if
he're them. I understand that Jaw's good. You've paid I mean baying the
extension hasn't kicked in, but like you've paid him. You've paid Jaron Jackson
Junior. Is this the season too? We've talked about how they waited too
long to make the consolidation trade or trades, and then when they finally did,
they were the wrong ones. Basically, do you make a move like
that this season when it when it feels so like just the past, you're
gonna have to travel to get even just into the playoffs? Right, there's
the argument of well, yeah, then go and get guy X so that
you can actually get into the plane and into the playoffs. But then it's,
well, you give this many assets for a season that's just gonna end
in, you know, losing in the first round or something. And then
you could argue, well, if that player is under contract, you're gonna
keep them. There's you should always just go get them because you're not just
gonna tank this season anyway. And so I probably land on if it's out
there, if you can try Siakam or even though about Larry marketing for this
team. I don't know, if you like the triple J marketing pairing,
that would be something to think about you I very much do. I think
I think market I just don't. I don't know. Did the Grizzlies have
five first round picks to appease Danny ainge for for marketing. They have all
their own so they can get they get I think they get trade four.
I mean that's a like a way better fit than Siakam, right, just
because market it has so much value as just a shooter that that he could.
You know, I'm not worried about him monopolizing touches or being upset not
getting enough on ball stuff. This maybe's a bigger question, like do you
so let's say the Grizzlies lose six in a row, right, and so
now it's just like we're not making we cannot make the play in we just
don't have it. Should that change like their approach to going and getting the
type of player we're talking about, like just in like a like a theoretical
sense, like or should you just go get that guy and be like,
well, come now, we're gonna see what we got this year. We'll
probably rest a bunch of guys, and then we come back next year with
the team we want. Like, I think maybe they should operate almost the
same way whether they're sort of unofficially eliminated or not from the playoffs, just
because you know, most of this roster, the guys that really matter are
young so you can still think like, well, we're just trying to be
good in twenty four to twenty five and beyond, so we'll go get market
in or we'll go get or you know whatever. I think. I don't
think it should. Yeah, that's that's a good call. Could they be
Yeah, I just I'm curious as to I think they have the assets to
get Siakam if it comes down to it. That's well, one, that's
assuming if the Raptors actually want picks for Pascal, which we don't know.
I mean, I guess if you're getting Smart as part of that deal,
it's kind of like, oh, best of both worlds, Smart and picks
and maybe Aldama. There's a nice little balance there. But I mean,
Siakam said to free agency himself, we just saw Og go for less than
we thought. I'm sure, you know, IQ like just the upcoming free
agency had to play into that, or maybe Og really wanted out, and
you know, Siakam was at least wanted to stay in Toronto as entering this
season. But do they even have the assets to these other guys that we're
gonna talk about or not, or that we could talk about marketing? I
don't know, that they would have the best offer, Like if they if
we're talking they go all out for marketing, do they have the maybe do
they have the and like that's a weird thing to say about someone who's maybe
a top thirty five player in the like do we have enough to get him?
They? Probably? My guess would be they what wouldn't have the best
offer for Michal Bridges? No, I just because you go down the list
and you think, like, because it has to be pretty pick heavy,
because because who's the young guy on Memphis that a team is thinking like,
who there's not like a quickly Oh, Vince Williams who's on a two way,
and it's just yeah, but there's not. There's not quickly is like
we'll just use him because he's a good example of like this guy hasn't you
know, performed like a star yet, but we sort of like there's a
lot of reason to believe he can come pretty close to that and he's young
enough and he'll be like they don't have that guy, which I think is
needs to be a headliner, even if you're talking about a bunch of picks,
like you're gonna you need if you're going for someone like Mark and then
you know Antonobey's different because of the expiring stuff. But like or the player
option, I guess if you want to be specific about it, but uh,
it's just you need Yeah, Memphis is gonna have a hard time having
the best offer for like any one of like real consequence, I think,
which do you think that'd be the case? Did not used to be the
case, but it is now. I think that's what it comes down to
for me, is I actually agree with the way you frame me? You
should probably operate the same way. But if it's a move where it's if
it's Siakam, I probably just do it to see if it works. If
it's marketing, sure, but if it's like if the best move you can
make is let's say it's a Kuzma or Jeremy Grant, guys who are under
contract but they're still gonna cost you a pick or two plus the salaries to
go out, are you making that move this season? Where it's a note,
I would say noticeably, a cut below fringe star level or like Billiam
Bogdanovich would be another one that would make make a decent amount of sense there.
That's like, are do you even have to give up a first round
pick for at that point for that one though, I don't know what anything
is worth anymore. Like the O had a ob trade really fucked with your
head, I really did. I don't know what what uh what value is?
That's probably enough on the Grizzlies. Do you want to do another team?
Uh? Yeah, let's talk about since not so much longer we're gonna
go, let's talk about the Thunder since they're trending. They did just to
Atlanta as we're recording this, And we've probably asked this question before, but
I'm gonna ask it again and then give my own answer to it. Do
the Thunder actually need to do anything to be one of the five to six
teams most likely to win the title this season? And I'll preface it before
you answer. With the Vitals, they are top five in offense and defense,
including in the half court, where they have the best half court offense
and that's been They're the best three point shooting team in the league. They
are below average when it comes to volume, but I've kind of focused on
I really think that they're They're not a good rebounding team. We know this,
but they've now beaten you know, the Timberwolves, the Celtics. We
saw them take that. I mean, they've been beating We talked about how
they could use some wins against good teams, and then they just like they
rip rolled the Lakers. I'm not saying the Lakers are a good team like
ever since they I think it was that Lakers game was sort of the turning
point for them, which was that was on November twenty sixth. They've just
been rattling off victories against teams that you would kid. They're twelve and four
during that stretch, plus nine point six rating. Some of the things we
have focused on, or at least I have harped on. I won't say
they're starting to normalize, but they've improved to where there was the squishiness with
the starting five. Offensively, that seems to be coming around a little bit.
Josh Giddy has been better, I would say much better as of late,
because he was working from such a nader that starting unit during this stretch.
In the thirteen games they've played together, they're shooting forty five percent from
three. They've outscored opponents by thirty one points in their one hundred and fifty
eight minutes it's not including the Atlanta game on Wednesday night. So I just
I want to say, I think that the people who believe they need to
trade for a star mistaken because right now that works within their salary structure.
But long term, with Jaln Williams eventually gonna need a new deal. Chet
Holmgrin, Josh getting himself, you're very much viewing that as well. We're
making this move because our title window is now. We know title windows are
fickle and are short, and so we want to maximize the next two to
three years rather than prioritizing the next six to eight. I don't think that's
a flawed way of thinking. By the way, I think anyone who's just
criticizing well star doesn't fit into their salary structure, why would they go after
lowry market in It's because you don't know what could happen next year, the
year after that. So there is the element of the now. But if
you're already good enough to win the title, you don't need to worry about
that. And so I'm curious to where you land on this team going into
the playoffs winning I'm gonna say three playoff series to come out of the West
I'm not even saying they need to win a title, but are they good
enough to do that left alone? So I think the thing that that should
push them towards going and getting a big name is kind of the same reason
like I don't want them to, which is that, like, because the
reason you do it is like, oh shit, like we are maybe the
best team in the West, Like there's really one or two other teams start,
like, you know, Denver is Denver, but like you could make
the case that the Thunder. I think net rating says it that the Thunder
have been better than the Wolves, Like there's at least I would say,
more trustworthy than Minnesota's. For sure, There's there's a discussion to be had
there, for sure. So but it's like, well, if they're already
this good, like why don't we just let this group grow together, keep
the powder dry, and like I don't know, maybe somebody better than Marketing
becomes available and we'll definitely have the ability to make the best offer for that
guy. Like but at the same time, you're right here, you might
be one guy away. I would I'm always more conservative about stuff like this
where it's like I kind of don't want to touch this team if like I've
just I want Holmgren and Williams and SGA to just be there as the top
three guys for you know, you talk about a sixty eight year window like
there's no such thing like we I think every smart franchise goes in like two
to three year windows and then they just reassess after that is the argument for
them going to make the trade though, that you have these three now and
then you can fit it into your salary structure for the next two to three
years. Yeah, let's maximize that. I just like if it were someone
because who's the guy? Because if it's marketing in like, that's a look,
we love marketing, but maybe there's something better, Like why not aim
even higher if it means waiting a year or or I don't know. I
like, I just I watched that entire game last night. I'm so I'm
so in, I'm so in on the thunder. They're so good, like
they just so here's where I land. I probably wouldn't. I'm not gonna
say that. I mean because I love so many watching the players and I'm
not even talking about the top end talent. I know some people try to
frame it as like lou Dort being expendable, and it's like, I know
he's a radic on the offensive end at times, but he still has volume
on the offensive end, which is more than you could say for some players,
and his defensive workload it allows you to insulate so many other people including
you know why Shake Gilges Alexander and part is so good defensively because he gets
to play with JDub and lou Dort. You know why Ja Dubb is so
good defensively because he gets to play with Loudort and General j and Chet's a
great defensive player right now today as a rookie like that, I but like
Isaiah Joe Kendrick Williams, I don't want to see those guys get traded.
I don't want to see their minutes get cut Kok who's not even playing,
Who's man Jame's not playing? My heart breaks for both those guys. At
the same time, there are different levels to it. I wouldn't make and
I'm I would be reticent to do this basically no matter which team I am,
I don't want to make the star trade mid season because it just feels
like much harder to integrate someone who's completely foreign to your system and your principles
and your ideologies. Mark Dagniel could probably do it because he does. Look
I don't know if he saw that I tweeted you. Probably didn't, I
said, Mark Dagno, looks like John's kind of looks like John Stockton discovered
science. Like that's what he reminded me. But I think if you are
a contender, you should treat yourself like a contender, and you could stand
to beef up maybe the sixth, the seventh, the eighth spot in your
rotation. Look, there's a very clear need upfront when you look at rebounding.
Maybe just some heft bounce there. But I also think you could make
the argument. I know he's been better lately. I'm not trying to be
spicy with this. Josh Giddy is not a good fit for this team long
term. Oh he's the guy you move one hundred percent. It's not about
we need to trade one of these guys before they get paid and turn them
into another star. It's no, we should trade him before we have to
pay him, when his value is high enough. If they want to roll
him and do the Sam Presti special into more picks, fine, do that
now might be the time to do it. If he continues to play well
defenses and Boss dare him to shoot. They had bigs on him for a
good portion of the game. That is gonna happen in the playoffs. And
I have very little confidence that Josh Giddy is gonna deliver for you offensively in
the playoffs. And so that though, is thinking like, well, if
we're just gonna move him for picks, why not wait until the summer or
something, because he is technically helping our team now. He is important now.
But that sort of brings me back to is there something where you can
even make Let's acquire not Larry Marketon who becomes their fourth best player, but
someone who is like their fifth or sixth best player. You should consider that
if it's on the table, I would certainly say like sixth or seventh or
eighth, Like, that's not gonna cost you any Like, that's not gonna
cost you Caseen Wallace right to go out and get that guy. It's not
even gonna cost you, Josh Giddy if you want the seventh best player in
your rotation. I ultimately think what they're gonna do is something like and I
was thinking about this when I was at the gym today, is wouldn't it
be so if the Bulls were just so cheap and they wanted to get out
of money before next season, and it would be so Sam pressed the of
oh, like Lonzo's starting to run, Like we'll turn Damas Britton's into Lonzo
and see if Lonzo can be anything for us. And so it's just like,
yeah, there's redundancies there with Josh Gidty, but just like someone who
is under contract for next season, maybe even it wouldn't shock me if they
were the team that traded for John Collins just to say, maybe doesn't play
a lot for us, but this is a salary anchor we could use into
trade if we want to, whose salary will be off the books by the
time all these other guys are making this money. That's probably the move they
make, which I think is fine, but I do have if I'm distrusting
something about them. I look at how they might be susceptible to bigger teams
on the glass, or they could be tossed around on the front line if
you're playing more of these physical teams, And then there's something about their offense
that I just don't trust where it feels like they could maybe use someone who's
gonna get up threes in more volume, or just an improvement, a spacing
improvement over some of the Josh Giddy or Lou Dort min it's in the sense
of how our defense is going to guard these players or even and I think
Jay Dubb is getting better here, but sort of in not even in every
level score, but in every level ball handler. And I've said this way
too many times over the past few weeks, but like someone who has some
half court jiggle and joggle. Yeah, I think one of the interesting things.
And they definitely did this against the Celtics and have been doing it more.
It used to be Williams would kind of run second units, and like
it was always tough because you know, Sja wouldn't be out there a lot
of times, Chet wouldn't be out there, and so he's trying to He's
kind of overburdened in that role to begin with, and there just wasn't a
lot of support. They're playing Meetshitch a lot more with and he's got the
ball right in second units and like that's I mean, he you know,
he's not gonna blow by anybody, but like that's a point guard and he
and he is really like there have been stretches where he is unlocking stuff that
that Jada just like couldn't, which is fine. It's like you can't ask
him to be, you know, a primary initiator with no support out there
and expect success. So like there are still even with this roster because me
just like was not playing and now I think it really actually matters to second
units. So like that's all to say is that Nip and vim to what
he's doing on and off the ball when you're watching too, So like that's
I mean, good find. I mean I I really killed that acquisition,
just really like great timing by me, like right before he started to play
a lot and it was was good. Suddenly I also killed member. I
killed them for giving up too much to move up two spots and get Case
and Wallace. And now I'm like, well, yep, so much for
that. I mean, we're just wrong across the board about the thunder basically,
like that's why you should listen to us. Yes we're never right,
but we admit it. We'll always admit it. Don't doesn't doesn't party.
You just want to not mess with this team at all and just see,
like what you can't I think reasonably you can't. But if there's if you
can move players who aren't really playing, like you know, Dallas Mpon's and
then some of these youngsters who are just not like they don't even have a
role moving forward, and if it's a lower end first to get someone who
might play for you, be your seventh guy in the playoffs, Yeah,
I think you have to look at it. I don't know who that is,
but like everyone's assuming it. You know you you talked about it.
It doesn't need to be a star. Is was both of our points.
It's like, maybe it's a and but it's like because me just is playing.
It's well, even if Bud Dog about Donovich became available, is that
someone you added, the answer should be yes, because he's an upgrade over
this. But I get the instinct of we don't want to mess with this
team right now. But that brings me back to my overarching question of even
if we don't want to mess with this team, can you envision them winning
a title as currently constructive? And if that's the point of this entire fucking
thing, the answer matters, and it matters because of what we just talked
about with title windows. It's great to say, well, no, they'll
grow together. You can't guarantee that. And the other thing I'll say,
we've talked enough about chet in general on this podcast. Asked he is,
I don't. I don't think it's being said up that he's like the second
best player on what might be the best team in the regular season in the
NBA. But when is the like, when's the last time a rookie missed
his entire first someone missed their entire first season due to injury and just never
had any injury concerns for the rest of their career. I mean, why
would you why would you speak that evil into I'm just trying to spotlight the
point of i mean, even Blake Griffin kind of had her checkered health bill,
like probably earlier than you would have expected, like Simmons and Embiid,
was Blake Griffin the closest thing to a recent exception? Oh, like,
well, because he was fairly healthy until he really wasn't with the knee stuff.
Yeah, probably that's a hard We should research that, but yeah,
no point taking it's rare, and so it's so that is wrap it up
there right now? How many teams would you pick in front of them to
win the title? Did without the Thunder making any changes. I mean,
it's like it's the usual suspects. It's like Boston, Denver, and then
you've got to start like Minnesota is like maybe, and then who am I
forgetting? Like Milwaukee's a maybe, although they can't beat the Pacers, so
I don't know how they're supposed to win a title. Yeah, they're right
there. So all the way back to the original question, like the reason
I would say the Thunder can't, can't, will won't win the title this
year is like they're just too young and this just never happens, like you
know that, it's just always you always got to go get beat by the
Denvers of the world in the conference finals or maybe before that before you really
break through. So like that's a stupid argument because there's nothing like that actually
addresses like the team itself. It's just like, well, based on historic
trends, like you just don't, you just don't do it this young,
Like it's just not what happens. So like I don't know which way that
cuts as far as like should they go get guys get veterans or something,
or just leave it alone and trust that in two years there we won't be
able to say they're too young because they've you know, they've scaled up through
several playoff rounds. This is our roundabout way of definitively hedging where it's saying,
don't say the thunder need to trade for a star, but don't just
assume that they have all the pieces in place and that this thing is built
to last or built to get over the top. It just doesn't typically work.
I mean. The other thing, too, is like, I mean,
we're just going way too far afield here, but like Sga is not
you know, twenty two, like this he is right now, Like this
is about as well as a guard can play professional basketball, come off as
fun Max eventually, as Brian Windhors calls coming off the fun Max eventually,
and just like it's you know, most of the other guys you can say,
you know, at least with with Holmgren and Williams, like there's upside
still to come, I think almost definitely, But with Sga, like maybe
this cuts towards they should trade. It's like this guy is great, like
right now and there's no guarantee that help this healthy front of him on the
MVP vault. Right now, where is he on the MVP ballot? Who's
in front of him? Say, I got the same question. Just I
mean, you can't. You can have embiid, you can have Jokic and
then' and honestly, I don't even know if you're gonna have to worry about
games played where bead ends up and then like Jokic has kind of had that
weird rough stretch, it might just it might just be Shay. I haven't
dug deep enough into it, but he is in the top five and he's
not four or five. No, No, that's right. Like you could
talk about like Halliburton and Luca I guess, but it's like it's Shay.
He's he's ahead of those two guys. So yeah, no, Like like
maybe maybe, as I'm saying, as we're talking about that, it's kind
of like you have an MVP candidate in smacking his prime, you're gonna wait
to go get more talent around him, Like that's the plan that that seems
iffy when you frame it that way. You have another team that you want
to talk about. Yeah, it's it's, uh, it's gonna be less
scintillating than the Thunder, who are just so much fun to talk about.
But so I picked the Clippers. And mostly it's just because I was thinking
the other day about just like what's the West hierarchy? How are we organizing
these tiers? And admittedly, like the Thunder kind of spurred me to this.
So it's like you've got Denver sort of as its own group because like,
not only are the Nuggets really good, but they've done it, and
then there's Minnesota and Okasee and then it's like, I don't know, it
just just have to be the Clippers after that, or do you have the
Clippers in like a clump with whoever you would like to throw up there?
New Orleans, Dallas, Phoenix. I'd probably free the Lakers or a little
farther down. But so I wanted to do like a little update on the
Clippers. So here's some of the fundamentals before we start talking about them.
They're twenty and twelve as heading into January third games. They have the number
four net rating tied with Minnesota at plus six point six, their seventh in
offense, eighth in defense. So they lost those five straight right after getting
hard and since then they're seventeen and five. That's the best record in the
league plus eight point six obviously better than their full season sixth and the offense
sixth in defense. All their losses except they got beat by the Warriors in
that stretch, have come against like very good teams Denver, OKC, Boston,
the Pelicans. So like the Clippers are kicking ass against the teams they
should beat, they're competing against the best teams because they've beaten a couple of
those two. Kawhi has had stretches. He missed time finally, but like
was healthy and was basically playing about as well as he's ever played. He's
on pace right now, believe it or not, to set a career high
and effective field goal percentage because he's making threes like crazy. He's like this
Kawhi Leonard is gonna set a career high in something. He's on pace to.
Like It's not like some guy that's just you know, on the upswing,
Like this is a guy that has been in the conversation as like is
he the best player in the world, like more than once. So that's
a big so and that's the key, right, because if you're gonna say
which I am, that the Clippers I think belong like right below or maybe
on the bottom end of the same tier as like Minnesota, and Okay,
see, it only is true if Kawhi is that guy, because if he's
obviously injured, like we're just gonna skirt the whole health question, which is
the entire reason that neither of us I think believed in the Clippers being all
that good this year. If he's not that guy, then it's like,
well, you got Paul George and Harden and neither of them have much of
a playoff track record, and that's just not good enough. But if Kawhi
is someone that in any given series can just be the best guy on the
floor the whole time, then like, I don't know what you're quibbling about
with the Clippers, Like what do they need that you want a more switchable
big you want maybe that's one of the best rim protectors in the league,
right It's I mean, their numbers defensively with Zubats on the floor are just
like, well they're great, Like so I don't know, the playoffs are
different, and you can imagine him getting kind of you know, attacked in
different specific ways. Like it's kind of the same idea why Rudy Gobert has
had playoff troubles after just being clearly the best defensive player in the league for
several seasons. So I just I think the update needs to be if the
Clippers are healthy, like and Kawhi is this version of Kawhi. They're absolutely
like in that top tier, I think, or very very close to it,
like you do what you want, Like Boston and Denver, I think
they're kind of maybe on their own, but the Clippers are like what their
most optimistic, like injuries aren't a thing you know, supporters thought they could
be, and I was definitely not one of them. And I'm very surprised
that, Like I've kind of come around at this point and finding myself a
little bit of a believer. But where are you on the Clippers? And
then other than like maybe a switchable big that's better than Daniel Tice or like
some kind of trade you build around Norm Powell or Russ to get just something
a bigger wing. Maybe what are your thoughts there? Yeah, I said
to you that I can't bring myself to having passion takes on the Clippers,
despite knowing how good they've been, I think because it's just will you all
be there and available when the season's over, which is exactly what we said
at the start of the year. So we're kind of weirdly in the exact
same place. But I didn't expect to be in this place having to asked
that right now, they do feel better built to navigate that uncertainty because now
it's okay, three real stars, and if whis out, it's just so
much different having Paul George and James hart Harden rather than just Paul George and
maybe Russell Westbrook or you know, and vice versa. James Harden has adapted
really well to playing with the Clippers too. I think that is something that
surprised me. I never we were probably both either cautiously optimistic or cautiously skeptical
both whatever. After the trade, he is still I assume that it would
work. To some extent. It has worked far better. They've even started
to find like some lineups where him and Russ just work together, and so
it's like if they don't have to worry about some of these combinations. It
just makes sense that Terrence man Zubach plus the Big three lineup gob smacking opponents
killing. But yeah, and that's with Terrence Manage not shooting well from three
during He's got like seventy from three. Uh since the since they lost those
five straight games, I don't know what this team would need to cement its
status. I could see just I know you mentioned a more switchable big,
but it's like they can kind of still top Like I think what they actually
need is PJ. Tucker from half decade ago, and so is that player
like to And it's not even as a mainstay, it's just to be able
to pull that lever in the postseason. I don't know what player out there
would fit that. Bill like, is it just is it nause Marshall?
Does he come like is it something just on that type of a scale.
I'm like, I'm grasping a struse. I don't I don't know who the
actual player is that you go after there. And I'm also just wondering if
you are them, you're playing this well and we just mentioned this with a
thunder, why break up the good vibes? If you're the Clippers, are
you more inclined to still do something because you've seen how this movie might end
before. Is it just like, well, this is a different level than
we've really ever reached, and we have insulated ourselves a little bit against some
disasters that we do let this stay. Maybe they signed someone off the buyout
heap later on after the trade deadline. That's a great point. You would
imagine that there'll be a very like, you know, all things being equal,
there will be a lot of guys that would rather sign there than other
places, so they'll have a big advantage there. I think. So you
mentioned the Terrence Man lineup that's like it's plus seventeen point one with the Big
three and zubots. The one with Powell is plus plus fifty five. I
was gonna say that you mentioned trading him before, and I'm like, he's
playing, so well, why would you do that? I know you wouldn't,
So that that answers your question is like you know, I the like
the last step in an exercise like this is always like, well, okay,
so what what should they be targeting or like what do they need?
I think probably in this case, like you just leave it alone. This
is another leave it alone. We had two straight leave it alone because you
know it's not like I think if you have Leonard and Man and George,
like, you can get away with Zubots like kind of being stressed a little
bit having to defend in space, you can you can work around that a
little. I think, would you consider like a Dori Infinity Smith or do
you not think that you can give you any minutes at the five? Always?
I would always consider him, Yeah, man Maxi Kliba if he was
ever healthy? Oh would you would you consider? But again, like the
stuff that, it's where I don't want to give up. Now I have
to look at their salaries because I'm at the point where well, no,
you're not gonna trade Zubots and you can't trade, oh you do PJ.
Tucker's money. And so it's like if you could get a guy where you're
gonna attach PJ. Tucker to a pick and you're still keeping man, you
also plumbly salary as well, so they can they actually get some pretty pricey
players in here. So where like MASSI what I was gonna the name I
was gonna mention, does Grant Williams do anything for you on this team?
Oh? I mean that's your that's your like matchup specific switchable playoff five right,
Like that's the guy that you throw out there against. I mean,
I also think Dallas views him that way too, So it's like, I
don't know. I look at Dallas Tucker and something we've seen that they don't
have the other personnel to make that work though, is what I think they're
finding out. Yeah, the Clippers do. That's that's right. Yeah,
he would be. He would be more helpful on the Clippers than Dallas.
That's right. I am assuming this guy's untouchable. But I did if this
if their pick is on the the one first round pick they give up,
which is that a twenty thirty pick I trade? I think that's right.
I'll double check that really quick. If you just put that on the table
and what and you're and you're Atlanta, you consider just because you're so cheap
giving up Jalen Johnson. That's a that's such a distant pick for Jalen Johnson.
Jalen Johnson will be on his like his third contract by the time that
pick comes due. I thought you were gonna say, like Draymond Green or
something like that, if you're trying to get the ultimate switchable five that you
could get to the money if you went like a three for one without really
touching the Yeah, so it is a I think they can give up their
twenty thirty first round pick. I mean, Jalen Johnson be perfect for this
team. Jaim jots to be perfect for a lot of teams. But that's
just like he's cheap, so you're not giving up any core players to get
him. I know, Bones Island's not gonna do anything for the Hawks.
Is there like any like you could throw in some other type of seconds if
you want to, like in a Mirre coffee or something, just to like
sort of wet their beak to see it. But if they were just they're
worried about if they're tearing it down, they don't want to pay him because
I have no idea what they're doing. I'm just like a twenty thirty first
for Jalen Johnson. I don't know. And maybe the Clippers wouldn't do that
because how much does Jalen Johnson play wan to beat Zoobotchin six exists? Excuse
me? I think the Hawks are saying no to that. And well,
if it's like an unprotected twenty thirty first, say top three. I mean,
the thing is none of the Hawks executives making that decision will be there
to cash in that pick. So why all right? Fair? That's fair?
That would be Yeah, if you had like a lifetime contract as a
GM, maybe you do that, But I don't know. So we're thinking
more like PJ. Talker in some seconds for Chris Bouchet, yeah, or
like or like you said, this is the case for a lot of teams.
The Warriors have like five guys where this is true. It's like,
just give me the several years ago version of this player and everything is fixed.
Like Tucker from twenty eighteen would just be like rock like rockets, Pete
rockets, PJ. Tucker would make the Clippers like insanely good. Do you
think there? And would you consider does the twenty thirty and then money?
Does that get you? PJ? Washington? Hmmm? What did Washington sign
for like three years and he's making sixteen million a year? Basically a Tucker
in the twenty thirty Charlotte again, same thing. The cup check will not
be there to cash in that pick, but like Charlotte should do that cup
check is also I feel like he's on a farewell torn knows it, so
maybe he does it just because He's like, well, I mean, what
is he doing though? What do you mean he knows it? What are
is? What actions he should be Some of the comments he was saying when
he was talking about the way that the PJ Washington negotiations shook out, it
was just like, Oh, this dude knows that his days are numbered.
Well he should, he should, He has reason to know. He certainly
should know that. Let's see, is it your turner, my turn?
What do you want to do here? Uh? I have so some quick
hitter ones. I wanted to focus on the Bulls a little bit, who
appeared to be coming back down to earth. Uh. They are still above
water since the zach Lavine injury. He Billy Donovan gave the latest update on
him and he's still on course to return soon. Since he's been out,
I know Kobe White has cooled off. He's still been amazing overall. He's
shooting over fifty percent on twes, thirty eight point three percent on threes,
shooting the eighty plus percent at the foul line. He's been still averaging over
twenty points. This is not including the next game from Wednesday night. Andre
Drummond's been great even in the Kola Vucevic's absence. I do think it helps
him. He is very when you look at him going up against like any
sort of team that can be fast or play athletically, He's still at a
disadvantage even with having Caruso, Javon carter ioh those guys in front of him.
Patrick Williams has been at times a monster on the defensive end. Tomato
Rosen there's very clearly a regression, but he's also still just been money in
the clutch. What are you? Has this changed? Like your opinion of
the Bulls at all, this stretch without Levine, the stretch that we've kind
of seen them play without. You know, there are other guys vouch a
little bit like do you look at it by saying and sort of knowing the
history of the Bulls where okay, we know what they should do, but
like the fact that they've been competent. Now, could they get to a
point where if we flip Zach Levine for someone who we deem as a better
fit, maybe two or three players, and like perhaps our offenses because the
problem is still kind of their offense. By the way, they're sixteenth in
point score per possession since the zach Lvine injury, and they've looked miss zach
Lavine at points just because of the stuff that he could do on offense.
Do you still have you has what's happened, Has what transpired changed the way
you think they should operate for the rest of this season and moving forward or
not? You think if you were running this team, but at least opened
an avenue to where you'd be okay with them exploring alternative or is it still
just no, we're overthinking this, tear it down. I think specifically Kobe
White looking you know, so much better is the is the piece that and
Williams to a lesser extent, although like both you know, Williams has had
plenty of runway and just has kind of been this guy for his whole career.
I think those two guys make it a little more plausible to view like
I think nothing has changed about you should trade zach Lavine. I think maybe
what you're talking about makes it a little more defensible to do, Like we'll
call it the terr on Oh route, where it's like we'll just get players
back. We don't want three first, We'll just we would like guys that
can get on the floor right now and like fill needs right that's more defensible.
But I still look at it as like take DeRozan like he's gonna be
a free agent, you trade him, Like that's just that is what it
is, because because if you're keeping him, you're saying like we're going for
it this year, and then we're thinking about real like I'm just like,
we can't do this. We just you just did it with Vucevich. You
can't double down and keep another thirty something that has led your team to nothing
over the last several years. So like you for just the financial like contractual
status of DeRozan says you have you trade, you have to trade him,
Uh, Levine, I think if I don't know what the package is for
him, I'd still rather get picks and stuff or like really young guys and
dead dead money that's gonna come off soon a deal for me. But I
think to your point, like some signs of life that's positive at least opens
your spectrum of opportunities for like, cause you just don't know what's gonna be
on offer for Levine, so you may have to take a deal that is
like a little more player heavy than pick heavy. That makes this that makes
what the Bulls are doing now makes that like a little more palatable. But
I'm still in I haven't seen enough to make me think like, if I'm
running this team, I'm doing anything other than just like gutting it. I
think I think like that that's still the way to go for me. I
think I'm with you and also part of the calculus here for me, And
I don't really know what that's just one or the other. That Ogiana nobetrayed
almost took out two theoretical zach Lavine suitors in one shot, because now that
you have quickly embarratted, I don't know the Raptors every would have been interested
in zach Lvine. We made a lot more sense on the previous iteration of
the roster, just like zach Lvine I think probably made more sense on the
previous iteration of the roster of the Knicks, just because they wouldn't have had
to maybe give up as much picks to get him. And now it's well,
all we have rights to get him. So even if you think he
might be a better fit because they did lose some shot creation juice, it's
just well, we're not going to give up the equity of taking to get
him at this point because our best salary matching, because now it's it's Fournier
and what you're using to get to Zaclovin's salary a player that matters. And
I think, like, you know, just to compare him to Murray,
if you go get Murray as the Knicks, you're not foreclosed on getting someone
who makes as much as Levine does. But if you go get Levine and
then you have to pay Ananobe whatever you're gonna have to pay him, and
then you've got to figure out Brunson Anne Randall, like you're not getting another
like capital G guy, Like that's that's kind of it, just because Leavine
his salary is so much greater than than Murray's. Like, just don't I
just really hope the Knicks don't get I hope Levine is not that guy.
I don't think he is. No, Like he just he better not be.
We've already we've already lined up the plan. It's get Murray and then
get McHale, Bridges or Joel Embiid. That's the that's the master plan.
Bridges And I know you said this Bridges in Ananobe is a lot lot of
fun that would be a lot of fun. Where is Bridges, Annobe,
Jalen Brunson and Jjontay Murray, Like what does that do for you? If
that's what they want, and then you're gonna have big X. Mitchell Robinson's
probably still there. Well, he might need to go out in the mckal
bridges trade. Oh yeah, that we're predicting well he would, because you
know, I mean that's such a that's such a like that is a nasty
team. Like those four guys are really good. I don't know, I
don't know, are they Like are they they're on par like talent wise with
just almost anybody's top four really right, I would assume they would have at
least one of Josh Hart and Devincenzo there still maybe even as qu Quent Grondin
is probably gone by that point. You gotta I mean, you've got to
have a big I don't know who that big is, but like that's kind
of the easiest thing to go get really if you've got your one, two,
three, four, like just set. I love Mitchell Robinson, but
like what he does is going to be easier to approximate on the cheap than
what Jalen Brunson does, or what even you know Josh Hart does and even
what Julius Randall does. Quite frankly, when you're looking at shot creation,
it's true you have one more team, right yeah, just real quick,
I don't know if we've you've you've picked the interesting ones. I think I
want to do a check in on the Suns just real quick. Eighteen to
fifteen plus two point one, eleventh in offense, thirteenth in defense. Like
all pretty solid considering the injuries that they've had. The one thing that like,
if you're looking for the I don't know if it's an achilles heel,
because this team is not like a true contender right now. But like their
turnover issues, their fifth most on offense and fifth fewest on defense. So
they just like the possession game is not in their favor, so they have
to like make up for that with shot making, which they which they can
do, but they're very much but they don't generally a lot of free throws,
Like they're kind of not winning the math in a lot of ways.
Katie Beel and Booker when they're together, they're plus twenty five, making absolutely
every shot they take. But this is like one hundred and twenty some odd
possessions. So like this is almost meaningless because that's like two full games basically
of them playing together if you adjust for you know, their actual minute totals.
I just like the KD vibes thing that we talked about a little bit
last week, give me real pause some of the Beal stuff, where like
normally, if so, like let's imagine that the Suns had not given up
what they gave up to get Beal, I think right now you would be
saying, like, how do we flip this guy for depth and defense?
Right? Like? How do? Because Beal seems duplicative like his his he's
not getting to the line anymore, lowest three point volume of his career.
He's clearly like kind of marginalized because you have two better on ball scorers and
shot creators ahead of him. So it's like in any other situation you would
be thinking of ways to like diversify by trading him. But that's just like
unthinkable right now because of what this whole team was put together to do,
and like why it was put together and how much ownership into that. So
they're just like a weird it's a weird mix and the KD vibes are really
like I can't get over them. Something feels off with the team. And
then like if you want to talk about it on the court, like the
reserves that they got that they're not paying anything are all pretty good. And
I've been killing use of Nurkic and just think he's like the the piece that
doesn't work. But like all the numbers are just like their defense is way
better when he's on the floor. He's been really wrong about the talent downgrade
going from I mean eight has been banged up this year in Portland's sort of
a different circumstance, but Nurkic has been I would say, noticeably better this
year than eight was for them last year. I was another dead wrong for
me too, Like I still think it's fair to say, like in the
playoffs, is he gonna get attacked in space? And can he finish anything
around the rim when you know the floor is totally open in the middle and
he's just on the roll and to catch and finish oversize, like he just
he's still not good at that. But like so far, just the bottom
line is he's been really good. So I'm kind of mixed on the suns.
I think the Beal thing is just like it's almost like it harkens back
to one of the things that seemed most obvious at the time they traded for
him, which is like, I'm not sure you need this, you know,
if you're looking for another high end player, like why is it an
offense only smallish, you know, shooting guard sized guard, and like why
wouldn't you be trying to, like, I don't know, do something other
than just get a third guy that can fill it up. So I don't
know, I just I just wanted to look at the suns like peripheral or
underlying numbers and kind of see, you know, if anything had changed from
the narrative of like, well let's just wait till all these guys are healthy
and then we'll evaluate them. We haven't really had enough of that yet,
but just looking for anything interesting about them. And really the main thing is
Nurkic has just been so much better than I thought. So I don't know
how you want to go forward with that if you have sons thoughts they were
a team wanted touch on because I kind of think that we might be underrating
the product that they have. So I'm just not concerned. So the thing
that concerns me more is will they lose the three point math on any given
night rather than necessarily the possession math their turnover rate when all three of the
stars are on the court, just because by adding this is why you add
Bradley Beal by the way is because you've now simplified the decision making tree to
where it knocks everyone down a further peg. And look, even when it's
just Devin Booker on the court, they're about lee average when it comes to
turnover rate. And so I'm a big believer in Devin Booker at the point
guard. He's gone through some piece and valleys this season. I've been uncomfortable
with Kevin Durantz and Devin Booker's defensive performance so far. I don't know how
that changes with Bradley Beal though back and where like their offensive burdens a little
bit lighter and maybe the vibes are just overall better. And the reason you
go out and get Bradley Beal by the Way is because that trade package wasn't
getting you anyone nearly as good as Bradley Beal if you just offered it in
a vacuum. Yeah, that's true. That's the thing I think we're missing
here, and I think it's more prohibitive from the fact that, well,
can we sustain this moving forward with the second Apron stuff? But right now
my biggest concern for them is, well, I have questions, but like
the biggest concern is will all these guys just be available? And I think
that's a question to some extent for every team. We talked about it with
the Clippers it could be that way. For are all these dudes are going
to be available? Is a big question if you want to win the title
in general, if you're Denver, it's just more of a risk here.
And so that's top of mind. But aside from that, I mean,
you look at Grayson Allen has been great for them. Have you seen the
numbers, by the way on that Eric Gordon, Grayson Allen, Nurkic,
like Booker whatever. Like it's just I'm guessing that lineup makes all the threes
because Gordon and Allen just haven't missed this year. Basically, Yeah, I
mean they have a I mean even the like the like, let's even look
at it this way that Grayson Allen with Beal and Nurkic lineup, and then
Kevin Durand and Devin Booker plus twenty three point three points per possession per one
hundred posessions. They haven't been played one hundred possessions just yet. There is
some when you look at the defense during the nonveal version of it, so
they're plus twenty five point six when it's Booker, Gordon, Allen, Durant
and Nurkic. Their defense rates in the ninety second percentile. Opponents are not
hitting their threes. What I have found interesting is Phoenix's defense overall is about
league average, and if that's gonna be about league average, we are absolutely
underrating the product here because of what they're going to do on offense, even
if it's imperfect when they have two of their stars on the court, let
alone three, and when you start to dig into their defensive performance, it's
like, well, they're getting burned at the rim overall, especially during the
non Nurkic minutes, and like opponents aren't shooting the best clip from three,
but they're still between thirty six and thirty seven percent. That's not like some
egregiously, it's different. You know, the lineup I'm just citing that was
plus twenty five point six. Yeah, opponents are shooting thirty one percent from
three. That won't sustain, and so they're their concerns are I think their
concerns on defense with Nurkic are just not as prevalent as I thought they were
going to be. And you still do have the Kevin Durant as your big
card in the playoffs to use, yes if he proves it. And because
Drew Eubanks has not been good, I think Timez Mattu has given them some
good minutes this year we've seen as a bookie's given them some good minutes too.
I'm not gonna trust those guys necessarily in the playoffs, that is,
aside from the health stuff that has now become that in the three point math,
I'm not gonna lie. Maybe I'm like mathing that too hard, but
that just you know, when you're not gonna get to the to the line
a lot in some of your lineups, if you're not gonna get the rim
aiton in some of your lineups, and then you're not gonna win three point
battle makes me a little bit uneasy. But it's just how are we cobbling
together the rest of their rotation outside the top five or six, And then
I'm also just kind of wondering, well, if everyone's healthy, does that
really fucking matter, because like the top five or six guys might be all
that really do matter? What do you think? The Clippers parallels are kind
of like shockingly apparent, you know, because it's like, well, the
real question is are they going to be healthy? And then figuring out like
who the other two guys are around your big three really are the question?
Like, so then I I don't feel comfortable saying this, but I kind
of like the Clippers better than the Suns? Do you who? Do you?
Who? Do you like more? As like, well, yeah,
I think you who's gonna advance farther in the playoffs? I guess would be
if you have that if they're if they're all healthy, everybody's healthy on both
teams, I think you have to like the defensive buttons the Clippers can push
more. And there's also just it feels like they have different gears and levels
to the way that they can play offense when you look at their three point
shooting, having that pure rim pressure guy in uh Norm Powell also just Nurkic
is better when he has to finish around the basket is like kind of getting
the head start, but like if each zoobox just is just a different type
of threat in that scenario, I think I feel a little bit better at
full strength about the Clippers. But I also think that and look, the
Suns might have to fight to not get into the playoffs by way of the
play in which that matters too, just because of how much ground they've seed
it so far. I think I'm just at the point with Phoenix where I'm
still very concerned, but let's not lose the plot here because we just haven't
seen enough of like when the Big three's on the court, they're just destroying
people to be literally absolutely anybody if those three guys, I think, what's
what's really wild to me as I'm thinking about the comparison, is like James
Harden stands out because he's He's the piece that is the reason the Clippers Big
three sort of fits together more cleanly because he's actually a point guard, whereas
like Booker is playing point guard and is a better player than James Harden in
a vacuum. But I don't think Devin Booker is a better point guard than
James Harden. Is like he's better at basically everything else, but hardened being
the like there's no question that like he should bring the ball up and initiate
the offense because that's just like what he is fundamentally. That sort of organizes
the rest of the Clippers in a way that I kind of like just sort
of from a field perspective, whereas with Booker, it's like this is a
little new that he's doing this, and you know, it's still not as
intuitive and not as clean of a fit with Durant and Beale as as it
is with like Harden. Just there's no there's no overlap really like in terms
of like what you're asking him to do with Kawhi and Paul George. Right,
So that's I think that's the bigger thing, is I but I'm trusting
James Harden in the playoffs? Is I trust Devin Booker in the playoffs more
than James Harden. But I also there's a dynamic that's materially different to where
I mean, Kevin Durant is used to working without the ball, especially when
you look at the Golden State Warriors error. Kevin he loved it too,
couldn't yeah get enough of it, but like there's just different ways that Kawhi
and Paul George are going to play off the ball as opposed to Bell and
Kevin Durant. And I think that's like what makes it fit better to where
Yes, James Harden is, he's measurably better passer, but I think I'd
frame it this way, the difference in either confidence or skill between Devin Bookrap
point guard and James Harden is smaller to me than the difference in skill or
effectiveness of needing. Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. Those are your guys off
the ball compared to Kevin Durand and Bradley blbe the ones off the ball.
Yeah, it's gonna be a wish. This is like a comparison. We
should just like kind of monitor as the season goes on because there are such
weird parallels between these two teams. I think that's gonna do it. Though
everybody who has uh listened, watched, rated, reviewed, subscribed, thumbs
up, followed, told friends, told enemies, thank you for those of
you that have not done that, never speak to us again. Uh,
should we just get aggressive in the in the thank yous and just really just
draw a line in this rout. Probably not. Probably not. If you
haven't done those things, please do them, because we're eternally grateful and appreciate
all of the uh all the engagement, all the suggestions, all the guests
of players, all the trivia, and just all the conversations on discord.
If you would like to get on our discord, the link to do that
is in the YouTube and podcast description, as are all of our socials.
As is the way to get some merch, which I understand there might be
some new stuff coming. Maybe should I talk about that carpet? The hardwood
Knox carpeting will come to a retailer near you too, and except it,
except it won't. I have no idea how much it costs. It was
a gift. If you have space though in your office, granted you would
like a Hardwoodknox carpet, maybe we could, maybe we could hook you up
well, so when you showed anyway, we could talk about it. Should
we could keep talking about the carpet or should I? Should I finish it?
I thought it was a banner when you when you sent me the photo
of it, and then you said something about a carpet, and I was
like well that doesn't make sense. You don't roll around your chair on a
banner. That's dumb. I thought it was going to be behind you,
the big hardwood Knox thing, but with the astronaut on it, No,
there's like no place to put it that would cover up. But people in
it was funny you said, would you say that was? I think the
the stickers you ordered are too big? When I thought you's like, what
is it like five by six or something or five by seven? I have
no idea what it was. People in Discord loved it, which people in
Discord seem to love my like setup in my office, which is a nice
change of place because so many people think I'm like broadcasting from a closet and
are making fun of it. It was like, I get their shoes set
up behind me, but like, does this look like a closet, Like
look at Yeah, I'm just in a corner of my office. It's mine
looks more like a closet than yours. I just have a window, so
it's definitely not a closet. Well that's true. Yeah, the window does
get in the shot sometimes pretty professional by me. Yeah, I don't have
a Saint Patrick's date Daniel Gallinari Jersey behind me, so you automatically win or
team at Jersey, which you should is like the you know, team at
Guy. I probably should have to find something. Suggestions, Hey, Discord,
give me some freshened up suggestions, because these Warriors Championship hats and my
dream on bobblehead and some books are I gotta. I want to do the
lighting. I actually have right next to me lighting to do like the have
you ever watched like the YouTubers they kind of have like the glow lighting and
it's a little bit darker behind them. That's the other thing that my wife
has just yet to do for me is like she needs to set up my
lighting better. And she's supposed to be working on new designs for us.
Well, if she figures out the lighting, let me know, because I
got some of those we're gonna use some of those led strips for Christmas lights
and then it looked too shitty and we use actual lights instead. So got
those laying around just ready for podcast studio improvements. That's the goal for twenty
twenty four is to have the new designs up soon and for Grant and I
to brighten up. Are not brighten up, but color it up, class
up really yeah, add some pizazz. Yeah. I think that's right.
I think I said everything I'm supposed to say, except for As always,
we're going to close with the shout out to the one and only Frank Milakina
and an apology to Jared Allen