What is krack alakin our knocks listeners, I am Dan Valley coming at you
with what is not NBA Finals content. Hopefully you enjoyed Game one. I
know I did, super frenetic. We will get deeper into that as the
series goes on. I know that information and reactions those are gonna be wildly
available. So, like I said, we like to change things up and
do some bigger picture stuff here. I will have a piece that's scheduled to
go live on Bleacher Reports Sunday where I'm talking about adjustments for each team to
consider going into Game two. So check that out if you would like.
But I've brought on Justin Rowan from the Chase Down podcast to talk about the
Cavaliers off season just because they're such a fascinating team given how much that they
exceeded expectations. They dealt with a bunch of injuries, they have a key
free agent and Colin Sexton carousel verts extension eligible. There's a lot going on
there, and so I figured it'd be a good time to bring him on
speak with him about the Calves offseason, their outlook, There lots of Evan
MOBILEI talk. It's a great conversation remember follow Justin on Twitter one of the
best NBA files out there at calves a Nada. That's at c A V
s A n A d A again a fantastic follow, highly recommended. Conversation
was a blast before we can and ball into it. I just want to
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subscription. Really do try and do a great job, a thorough job of
covering the entire MBA. That is enough out of me, though, Let's
talk Cleveland Cavaliers. They're off season to come their long term future with Justin
Rowan. Justin, welcome back to the Hardwine Knocks podcast. Is your fifth
appearance of all time, which means that it's officially your fault. All the
four times can be on me or they can be out of pay for you,
but the fifth time is is your fault. How are you doing I'm
doing really well. I am happy to be back. It is an honor.
I didn't realize it was five times. But you know what, you're
one of my favorite people to shoot the ship with, So this is fun.
That means a lot. I always love picking your brains about the Calves
who did not win the lottery. I was a little bit surprised by that.
I don't know if you were christ following well, but I was expecting
I was expecting them to just win it. At this point, they are
headed towards like a fascinating off season, which why I wanted to have you
come on. And I think I wanted to start with when I saw the
season was over or was coming to a close, there was this subset of
Calves Twitter that was like unhappy or thought they should have done better, and
I just wanted to I want to make sure not being like a zillion miles
away from this. This year was an unmitigated success relative to injuries and initial
expectations, right. I mean, this is the fun thing about when you
start to become relevant again, is you get casual fans that tuned in.
You probably have Browns fans that were expecting a great season. There was the
victory lapse between different parts of Cleveland Twitter, where the Browns kind of didn't
live up to expectations, and then all of a sudden you have the Calves
exceeding expectations. So maybe that played into it. I do think so there's
two parts, from a proof of concept standpoint and from just like a lay
of the land standpoint. Obviously, the Calves exceed their expectations by a ton
there their vaguest win total was twenty seven. That was the easiest overbet I've
ever had, and they exceeded my expectations. I'll only predicted thirty seven wins
and they were on pace to be a fifty win team. I mean,
the last third of a season after the All Star break really fell apart an
injury standpoint, but the fact that the young guys fit together as well as
they did had the success that they did. Sure, they didn't live up
to the expectations that they moved themselves by their play earlier in the year,
but I think it was pretty understandable given the injuries that they had. Yeah,
for sure, And you you smashed the over. I remember on the
look Ahead Pod, I did not. I took the under, as did
my costid promos. So they and they destroyed it. I was wrong about
so many things this year, the Calves among them. I'm curious as to
whether you view it as that. I thought nationally the Carousel Vert trade was
like panned because it was like, oh, they like, look at the
way at the pick equity works out. I was fine with it. I
thought it was a good deal for the Cavs. Is there an element of
making sure though, when you're projecting ahead that you don't want to overreact to
the success of this season and try And I don't even know what that looks
like because the Cavs don't have a ton of cap space, but you don't
want to try and over accelerate this process, maybe go only on a bigger
trade or make more aggressive moves just because there is Evan Mobley's going into year
two, Like you kind of want to see this thing marinate a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's really important and I've been big on saying this
on the podcast as well, that I mean, really, there is no
precedent to players winning before like twenty six, Like, there just isn't an
example of that, and if they do, it's usually because they have a
veteran teammate, like when Guy re won it's because they had Lebron. Yeah,
Evan Mobley, even though he wasn't their best player last season, he
certainly projects to be their best player or at least the highest ceiling player on
the team, which is exciting when you have two other All Stars that were
twenty three and twenty one years old in Darius Garland, like that is just
such a great place to be in. And I do think that you're right.
I think you want to supplement the talent and you want to make moves
to make sure that there isn't too much of a burden on those guys,
but you also have to have an understanding that the best path to getting better
is through internal improvement and whether that is just the growth directly leading to wins,
or also growth of some of these other players that might increase their value
if you are going to do a consolidation trade at some point, Because I
think when you look at this Gas roster, even though there are glaring needs,
there also is log jams when it comes to a talent standpoint, Like
it's going to get a little bit tricky because yes, Caris Laverte got brought
in, but now you're likely bringing Colin Sexton back into the mix. You
still have Isaac Okoro, you have the fourteenth pick, which is likely going
to be used on a perimeter player. If I had to guess, it's
going to get tricky. Even Dean Wade and Lamar Stevens took strides last season
as guys that you don't feel bad about being your tenth and eleventh men,
and you can give minutes to those guys. So it's going to be really
really interesting to see how the minute crunch plays out. But I definitely agree,
like I think you want to make some moves, but you have to
have an understanding that there is still growing pains ahead of them. I mean,
look at the Memphis Grizzlies, Like, even if you have regular season
success, I would expect for the next couple of years, they're probably going
to take some lumps and have some lessons along the way in the playoffs and
their team. The Cavs seem more open to risk than the Grizzlies, is
just based off the way they both handle those at the trade deadline, and
so I'll jump to this just because it's more topical the lottery they land at
number fourteen. Are there any players you particularly like or you even just mentioned
like the need is the perimeter player. I mean if they, I would
you know, be cackling my ass off if they end up drafting like Jalen
Durhan because he's just still on the board and it's all another center, they're
going to play five of them the lines. Yeah, I'm really hoping that
that's not the direction it goes. There's some teams ahead of them that could
use the center, so I'm hopeful for that. I'm not expecting Charlotte to
take a center at thirteen because I think with them having picks thirteen and fifteen,
they can probably do the math and say, if we like a center
there, we can just take a perimeter player first. Because the Cave probably
aren't going to draft a center, even from an asset standpoint, that would
be a bit of a surprise to me. There's quite a few players I
like at this point. Obviously you're you're not getting like a real finished product.
You're you're getting guys that have some glaring holes. But there are players
that Phil needs, whether it is a Maliki Brandham, Dyson Daniels, I'm
really excited about. I don't think he's going to be there, but if
he is, I think that that's a guy you run to the podium for
Jeremy Soahan, Tari Easton. There's just a lot of interesting ways that they
can go with this, and I think one of the benefits of last season
is you can get a little weird from a roster construction standpoint when you are
building around Garland, Mowbley and Allen. Like Lowry Markenen is not a three,
but he can play the three because of the defensive versatility of those two.
Darius Garland can play with other point guards. We saw how well it
worked with Ricky Rubio. So if the best player available is a big guard,
and you can feel pretty good that Garland can play on and off ball.
He's malleable in so many different lineups. If the best player available is
maybe a bit more of a four, but he has some ability to stretch
the floor, you might draft him because you know you can flex him over
there to the three with MOBILEI Allen lineups, and then when you do go
small, he can play at the natural position for the four. So I
think that there's a lot of interesting options in this draft, and as long
as they're bringing in someone that has at least one NBA skill. I feel
pretty good about it because it's going to be difficult to develop a player with
all the options that they have available. I didn't even mention o Chayabaji.
I think that might be a direction that they go just to fill a need
in that kind of Cam Johnson like mold. But I am excited about the
possibilities at fourteen because even though they didn't jump in the lottery, it does
seem like picking fourteen for a roster this good is already a bit of a
lottery win, Like they shouldn't not have a pick this high, right,
And my guests would be like, this is the perfect situation to where whoever
they draft is gonna be brought along slowly, Like you don't. I guess
it could depend on who they wind up with, But would it be mildly
surprising to you if whoever they draft is like a prominent part of their rotation
next season, it would be a little bit surprising. I don't expect anybody
that they draft to be a starter, but if they were to draft someone
like Abaji, I could see them him being ahead in the rotation, like
in almost like the Jetty Osman role last year, where still getting a good
amount of minutes off the bench. But there's just so many X factors when
it comes to that, like is Carris Laverte going to be back? What's
the deal with Colin Sexton? Like how many minutes of Isaaco chorl going to
merit? Like, there's so many questions, and a lot of that's going
to be just based on who develops over the offseason and who earns those minutes
and what trades are possible. So there are a lot of factors that go
into it. But I can definitely see some of these guys at least getting
you know that, like eighteen twenty minutes off the bench. Everything I ask
you such a loaded question before we go through the offseason. It's just gonna
depend on what the makeup of their roster looks like. But I think we
can assume the super ultra big lineups are going to remain a staple of THEIRS,
And I was just curious where you think that they could improve, like
the setup of those I went back before this podcast and watched a bunch of
minutes of them because they're they're rebounding rate, like on the defensive end,
concern me during those times I'm watching and I'm like, Levin Mobley is just
doing everything all over and Larry Market is actually holding his own on the perimeter.
You know, I don't want them to rank in the fifth percent file
defensive rebounding with those lineups, but I'm watching it. I'm like, I
don't think I care, Like this is just like absolute defensive anarchy, and
so I assume they're going to remain a staple. But is there anything further
you're looking to see from those types of combinations. Yeah, I think the
one thing that I'd really like is to have a little bit more versatility in
the types of lineups they play. Like even Lamar Stevens and Dean Wade they
played minutes at the three, and Lamar even played some minutes at the two.
But those guys are fours right, like, And the issue with Lamar
Stevens is I think he defends forwards well, but when it gets to guards
anyone that's shifty, he tends to start fouling quite a bit. I would
like to see a legitimate wing come in so just so that they have a
little more defensive versatility, Like you look at that playing game against Atlanta and
yeah, Jared Allen's playing with one handy, he can't really grab the ball,
and it was the first time they had ever played together with Garland Coro
laver Mobile Allen, like those guys didn't get a single game together after the
All Star break. So I would like to see just the ability to throw
different looks defensively, because when you had Trade Young getting Lowry marking in on
the switch, there wasn't an option you could really go to off the bench
at the three. And maybe it's a little easier if you do have Dean
Wade, but even just bringing in a rookie or using the middle level exception
to bring in someone like Kyle Anderson or you know, just like and even
Joe Ingles, Like let's take a chance on Joe Ingles that maybe he comes
back midway through the season and can kind of provide some playmaking. I just
feel like they had a lot of guys that help them replicate the same style
when they would go to the bench, and I would like to see the
personnel that enables JB. Bickerstaff to make adjustments. And I think that that
is one of the things that I'm really looking forward to this offseason, is
can they add some versatility to the lineup on both ends. I'm curious to
know what you think of Evan Mobley's offensive ceiling specifically and how that then impacts
their philosophy to flush out this roster moving forward, because you watch him on
offense last year and there's just so much more there to explore and he's not
there's a different cadence to his game than bam Adebayo. He's not throwing the
same pass as as Yo kich, but there's like a real command there finding
weak side cutters of just like knowing where the help is come from and finding
those guys, and some of just the passes that he even made on the
move at times, like I know he did a lot of his damage,
like as a pass from the standstill positions. This feels like someone who almost
doesn't have a pinnacle on offense in the best possible way when you're watching him.
I'm curious whether you think the calves are going to give him some extra
runway or responsibility however you want to frame it on the offensive end next year.
Yeah, I definitely hope that he is empowered to do more playmaking.
I think last year is a figuring out of Okay, what all can he
do and how can we help his transition to the NBA. Now that we
have a sense that he's ahead of schedule, that he can do so many
different things, now it becomes about refining those skills. And I think it's
really important that you look at how much effort the Cavs put into getting Darris
Garland off ball looks. I believe only Steph Curry and Duncan Robinson had more
like off screen off ball action run for them on the season, and that
is so important when you're talking about either bringing in another ball handler or having
offense run through Mobili like the two men game that he and Garland can run
together, it's just really exciting the possibilities there. So I would definitely like
to see more action run through him in the high post, like let's get
him up to the nail, Let's see what he can do as a playmaker.
He can obviously get by a lot of slower defenders or overpower guys.
You hope that he adds some strengths. So while I don't expect him to
be like a Yokich level hub, just because you do have Darius Garland and
you do have other options that can run the offense. I would like to
see offense run through him, and especially when you talk about him essentially being
the backup center, where his minutes were staggered with Jared Allen, where they
might start and finish together. But he did play as the backup center.
So when the Calves do go to that second unit and he is that center,
I would love to see, like an up Temple look, whether they
bring in a backup point guard. Callin Sexton likely would be playing in those
second unit minute get out and run, get out in transition and kind of
run some offense through Mobley if you don't necessarily have a true point guard in
those lineups. Yet another thing I was wrong about this season, whether it
was Evan Mobley, I didn't. I was not in love with to pick
for the Caps. I would just man dead ass wrong on him. Mentioned
Colin Sexton, though last time we spoke we were both pretty sure that he
was going to end up getting an extension instead season ending injury, entering restricted
free agency. How should we expect this entire thing to play out? Is
anything on the table or do you think it's just overwhelmingly likely that, especially
given the nature of for sure, diffree agency, how little cap space is
out there, the uncertainty surrounding his health. Do we just expect him to
be back in Cleveland next year? I expect him to be back. All
the beat reporting seems to suggest that you initial talks aren't that far apart,
that there was a desire on both sides to be together. This isn't a
Kyrie Dion Waiter situation where it's two personalities that butt heads. Garland and Sexton
are really close. And when you let into the comments of Kobe Altman,
like he credits Sexton first starting the turnaround of their culture. He's just such
a hard worker. And even though the start of the season wasn't the best
for him offensively, the three point shooting wasn't there, he still was at
a career high in two point field goal percentage, and he was playing off
ball like he was still even though he was kind of the primary play finisher,
the ball wasn't stopping with him. He was playing as a cutter.
His defensive metrics were a lot better. You look at a defensive EPM in
the small sample size and it was much much improved. And I think that's
what you would hope for calling Sexton next season is once he gets his legs
under him, that he's able to take on a little less responsibility offensively,
be primarily that play finisher, but contribute in some of the other ways where
in coming into the NBA, it was thought that he was going to be
a good defensive prospect. He's got basically a six ten wings fan. He's
got a high motor. You can see the on ball effort from him.
Off ball is a totally different story. I have a lot of concerns on
that end of the floor, but I do think that he's someone that would
bring that playmaking juice that that's scoring punched, the ability to get and make
a good shot or a tough shot when the shot clock runs down. And
when you look at the Cavs last season, that was one thing that they
sorely missed. That was something that they were really hoping that Karris Lavert can
bring to the table. And while Leavert might be a better playmaker than Sexon,
he's not a better score And I don't think it's it's not easy to
just write off someone that efficiently averaged twenty four and four. Like I it's
that I don't get the sentiment that all of a sudden, when there's more
talent around a player, that all of a sudden, it's going to be
harder for them to score. That's usually not how this works. Especially and
even during that season, which I always go back to, I think Zach
will call it the most disrespected twenty four points per game season NBA history,
because it was he came on like it was like thirty eight percent from three,
better on fifty percent on twos, and he was doing there was a
lot more on ball work for him, but he didn't feel like overly ball
dominant during that season either, And so I'd be with you that you think
his game would scale eventually to having better talent around him. How do you
view though, that collective of Garland, Sexton, Lavert? Is this something
that we should expect to be more of a placeholder with? You know,
Sexton new deal coming up, Garland's extension Algeable and Lavert. I think he's
extension Alange well now, but he his free agency after next season. Yeah,
do you one think that it's not even a matter of do you have
to play them together on the floor? You could try it, but do
you think it's like a triumvirate that works long term, or do you view
it as more of just like this stop gap. I feel Garland and Sexton
can work long term, whether they're starting together or not. I don't have
real strong feelings on that. I know it's funny. I feel like one
of the ways that people can signal that hey, I'm not just a casual
basketball fan. I understand it at a higher level is saying that an efficient
scorer on a bad team is better coming off the bench. Like no,
no, no, I understand that there's more to it, Like I get
this sex and as a bench off the bench and as a six man kind
of thing, But at the same time, someone needs to earn that spot
from him and Isaac Corral got a lot of opportunities last season, and assuming
that Sexton is Sexton again, there wasn't enough from a choro to make me
think, Okay, he has to start over Sexton like Sexton in that starting
role and then being the first subout and running with the second unit and staggering
the minutes with Garland. Like to me, I think that works really well.
It gives you really dynamic bowl handlers at all times. When it comes
to cares Leavert. That's a little more tricky because, as you mentioned,
he is extension eligible. If Sexton is getting a new deal, you have
to kind of start to think about resource allocation there. And I think he's
interesting because, well, one, he is extension eligible. He is an
expiring contract, so teams can kind of if they value him long term,
they can eat assign them to an extension, or they can kind of play
out the season and maintain some flexibility. I think that might create interesting opportunities.
So like when you look at the trade market, Chris Feedoor put it
out there that hey, maybe Calvs and Jazz might talk about a LeVert for
Mike Conley deal where you talk and get kind of a more dynamic ball handler.
Some of that can help the offense and make things a little easier for
Donovan Mitchell and Mike Conley can step into that Ricky Rubio deal or role where
yeah he's a little overpaid and he's a little over the hill, but in
a reserve role off the bench and as a mentor to Darius Garland, there
could be some appeal to that. Maybe Duncan Robinson, you have a similar
situation where the Cavs just say, we need to get some shooting in here.
My goodness, even though we got better, the spacing got worse last
season. Let's figure out something there, right, Like, there are going
to be options available, but I do see. I think the most likely
outcome is that LeVert starts the season. I just don't know if he's going
to finish the season with the ass and you have to start like two of
those guys because I think the over there's I'm more concerned about the Sexton Lavert
minutes together without Garland because Garland is just like infinitely scalable. I think Sexton
is super important in making the partnership with Lavert work because Lavert just doesn't have
the same like it's it's not even just experience, but it's even skill off
the ball, dating back to his time in Brooklyn, And so that could
be sort of a tenuous fit. If you're gonna make Sexton that first Yank
Allen lineup, and then I guess, is Lavert the first sub coming off
the bench. If it's a cool, at that point, you're gonna be
relying on a lot of Sexton and Lavert, which could get iffy. And
so I don't even know what to think. We didn't get to see it,
which sucked. I don't even know what to think about this fit.
It's it feels like a little bit of an an overlap oddity and not something
that I'm you know, you look at Lavert Sage, You're like, Oh,
could you maybe play all three of them at once? I don't even
know if I would ever want to try that if I'm Cleveland, Yeah,
like I could see Garland, Oh, Cora, LeVert, Mobili Allen working,
but like Garland, Sexton, Lavert, I just that that gets tricky,
and like if they do go out in the draft, Maliki, Brandham
and fourteen all of a sudden, like there is a lot of redundancies between
Brandon and Laverte, right, Like they are very very similar offensive players,
even though Brandam has a little bit more outside shooting. There's deficiencies on the
defensive end. There's questions about their playmaking and getting other guys involved. Like,
there's just so many questions, and there are good problems to have,
Like you want to have talent, and I think they're prime for a consolidation
type move. But at the same time, if they're all in the mix
starting next season, I do think that that could be a little bit tricky.
I love Mike Conley to the calf. People are too down on Mike
Conley and always had a couple of rough playoff when with the past two season,
but he's also just been really bankable during the past three regular seasons.
I love that fit and had not thought of it until you mentioned I would
really like it. We've discussed it in the Chasedown discord, and like it's
been something that I've debated with other people that cover the team, and there's
a split, like there's a lot of people concerned about him being washed and
concerned about the contract and all that. But to me, like you look
at what happened with Kevin Love, where all of a sudden he's in a
more kind of the minutes are reduced, he's in a better role for where
he is at that stage of the career. And like over the regular season,
Conley's numbers like he's still shooting the ball at a good pace, he
doesn't turn the ball over too much, Like he's a steady hand. He's
a veteran and someone, as I said, that can be a mentor to
Garland. Like I do think that that's a really really interesting possibility. You
So you've mentioned already that their biggest need is just on the perimeter, Like
that's where you want to see a draft a focus on free agency. Is
it what would you view as like the bigger need finding that Ricky Rubio replacement
or actual ul be a free agent at connective tissue on offense or is it
getting more lethal just perimeter shooting. I do think getting wing help is probably
the biggest need. But when it comes to the draft pick and using that
pick to address the need, like I feel pretty strongly that this is your
best chance to take a swing and like get some talent in there, because
they are going to have the middle level exception. You do have trade assets
that you can use as well to address other needs. And if it's about
getting a steady hand in it at the backup point guard position, you can
address that in other ways. Like we haven't even mentioned Jetty Osman, who
has a non guaranteed year after this next year, so maybe he's going to
be a trade asset. Maybe you can use him to bring in either a
backup center so that you have a little bit of insurance if you have injuries,
kind of learning some lessons from last season, or using him to bring
in a backup point guard. So when it comes to the fourteenth pick,
I would like to see them take a swing and then based on whoever was
available and whoever they pick, there's going to be ripple effect. If let's
say Tie Tie falls to the Calves and they feel very strongly about him being
the best talent available and they pick him, that'd be a surprise to me.
But at the same time, you know, take your swings. It's
kind of like a quarterback in the end fell if if you don't have one,
keep taking swings until you get that guy. So it would be a
little bit of a surprise, But obviously then you start allocating those resources,
the trade chips, cares Laver, Jeddie Osman, future picks, whatever it
takes to bring in more wing helps. So I don't think that there is
necessarily like any set path where I would say, Okay, you have to
use the pick on this guy, you have to use the mid level exception
on another guy, like I would like to see the pick go towards a
wing because realistically three indie wings or dynamic playmaking wings like those are guys that
just don't come available, and when they do, they're usually really expensive.
So that's my hope. But I do think that there is a lot of
different ways that they can go without obviously knowing who they drafted, and I
know you mentioned Kyle Anderson already. They should have the full mid level exception
non taxpayers of vision even after resigning Sexton. Are there any names that you've
sort of had circle that you would like to see them target again? Obviously
he can be impacted based on who they draft. I think one of my
favorite names right now is Delon Right. I would really like to see them
bring him in as a backup point guard, just because if you are bringing
Colin Sexton back right as somebody that can play with Garland, and he can
play with Sexton, and even though he doesn't necessarily bring the same playmaking chops
that Ricky Rubio had, if you're talking about a second unit where you're going
to have Mobile in an empowered role where he's provided more playmaking, you have
Colin Sexon, who you know he can make the simple reads as a passer,
and he can run some pick and roll, but he's not the best
playmaker. If you have Right, you have sex and you have Mobile providing
some playmaking. You probably have Kevin Love who can act as a bit of
a hub still like and maybe a rookie if let's say they get lucky and
Dyson Daniels falls to him and all of a sudden, you have like a
point forward type player with them. I do think you can get enough playmaking
within that lineup to make it work. So Delon Wright is definitely a name
that I kind of have circle Tyler Anderson. As I mentioned, it would
be a really interesting option depending on who they draft. Shame Robert Covington came
off the board because I had some interest in him, But you know,
guys in that mold, even Nick Betum I believe is a free agent like
that would be interesting monitor Portland's situation. Are they going to waive Josh Hart
to clear up max cap space to go after Zach Lavine or DeAndre Aiden or
something along those idea? What is going on in Portland? They that team
is they're They're weird. They're weird, but look, I'm not The quick
tangent would be if you're gonna trade Robert Covington, Larry Nass, Norma Pow
and CJ. McCollum in the same season. You better get a first round
pick that year, and they did not. And that's just where I land
on this. Yeah, yeah, it's they're a very, very weird team.
I'm sure they're going to try to take some swings. I would not
be surprised if that's where DeAndre and ended up, whether it's like a NURK
and seven sign and trade type situation. But they're definitely a team to monitor.
I do like the fact that there does seem to be some movement already
starting. There's some trade talks across the NBA, because the one thing that's
worked out for the Cavs is just how easily Kobe Altman works with other front
offices. I forget which general manager it was, but it was in the
Hardened to Brooklyn trade where they said basically that they called up Kobe last minute
because they need a third team and they knew he wasn't going to screw around.
He wasn't going to all of a sudden Daryl Moriot where he's asking for
the moon and the stars. In addition to it, Kobe was ready,
he was motivated, and he's able to get in there as the third team
same thing happened with the Juel holiday trades. So if the Cavs, if
there's movement around the NBA, I feel better about the caves likelihood of maybe
not getting a star within the deal, but helping to facilitate a trade because
they do have a lot of expiring contracts. Kris Lavert, Kevin Love,
Jetty Osman, Like there's sixty million basically in expiring contracts that they can use
to help facilitate these trades or help other teams achieve goals in other ways.
Like even if the New York Knicks, like, let's say the Calves really
like someone that's available eleven, they don't feel confident he is going to fall
to fourteen? Do the Knicks do like eleven and Fournier to get off that
money for Karros Laverte in fourteen? Like, there's so many interesting possibilities for
them where I don't like Evan Fournier, but if you can add one more
rookie that that fits with this core, I think you need to be aggressive
and exploring those options. The Knicks should be forward thinking enough and innovative enough
to think that way. They definitely do not. That would be an interesting
scenario. Hey, they need to get cap space, because the one thing
we know about the New York Knicks is they land free agents. They land
all the big names year after year, decade after decade, sometimes decades after
they were in their prime. But I think that's the Lakers lane now,
oh Man. For the Cavs, it's and you mentioned I think trades are
going to be important this summer. And I voted this idea to a bunch
of people. Normally the feedback is you're an idiot. But because there's no
like real cap space around the league, I was like, are signing trades
and trades in general going to be like this hot button occurrence that we see
coming out of nowhere in a lot of instances, And it was met with
less disdain than normal. So embracing myself for like wacky or summer. The
signing trades are back, Like when you look at like Malcolm Brogden, like
all all these deals seem to be signing trades now, So that's it definitely
feels like they're they're back in vogue. And I think that's part of the
reason why the Cavs, like you talked about how the Carros Lavert trade didn't
work out. But the Cavs understand they're not going to be a cap space
team. They're not a team that can really use cap space. They're not
going to sign a marquee free agents. So one of the things you see
is they keep rolling over contracts where they trade an expiring guy for someone that
might be overpaid, but it's going to be an expiring the following year and
helps address a need now. So I think that's what they did with Kris
Lavert. I think Lavert for Conley that concept follows kind of that same trend
where maybe Conley has a good season and all of a sudden, you can
combine him with whoever you picked at fourteen to go in for a player that
is available for a consolidation trade next off season. So that definitely seems to
be something that is becoming more and more in vogue around the NBA. I
had so that I have three free agents that I've been insured that I like
for them. One of them has just mentioned all the time. I know
he's smaller, but he quietly had a bounce back year with Gary Harris over
fifty percent on drives and his shooting was back, just all of a sudden.
The shooting was back for most of the year. The other two I
don't know if they bring you enough hardcore shooting, but I think they would
be fantastic fits is Pat Connaton has a player option that I think he absolutely
needs to the decline given how thin the wing market is in free agency,
and he is He will work on defense, he will work off the ball,
and he shot the ball better. Really the past two seasons it felt
like the other one. And I'm if he ends up sucking, I'm gonna
look like an idiots. I've been trumpeting him for a few months now.
A smart team is going to scoop up a mere coffee, non Burt restricted
free agent from the Clippers. They really saddled him with like some creation responsibilities
last year. He shot the three pretty well and he defends like four positions
and that seems to fit defensively, like the Calves motif and what they might
be be looking for. And he feels like the perfect complimentary guy. I
don't know the three point volume. It's the same thing with content. I
don't know if they're going to get off enough outside looks to impact the Calves
shooting enough. That is the issue. You just run into which is why
I think you mentioned in trades was so important. You start to look at
this free agency market, and the Calves are a better situation than most because
I think the non taxpayer's mid level it means something when there's so little cap
space. But then he started to look at the names of the album and
it's like, all right, well, what they need specifically, they're probably
not going to solve in free Enzy den Right, That's the what I felt
about. That would be a fantastic fit for them, for sure, and
they seem like right in his price range. I think was that a pun?
Right right in his price race? Yeah, I didn't even realize I
did that, but I know some mini mid level teams are going to think
that they have a shot at him, But I think he's more of a
a full like a bigger mL E guy, So I love that. I'm
just when you look at this team and you mentioned all of their expiring contracts,
who do you view as sort of the player that's most likely to get
dealt from them if they make them move over the off season. This is
going to be the least sexy answer, And I'm sorry to do this to
you, but I think it's Jetty Osman like, Hey, based on how
we played this past season, that's like he had moments. So Jetty's interesting
because I think Jetty played so much better when he was with Ricky because Jetty
can have a little bit of Yolo in his game, and that's shot creation
and like just the willingness to take shots. I think really benefit of them.
But after Ricky was out of the mix and they bring in Rondo,
Rondo isn't healthy either, and then Garland goes down to and you're playing with
out point guards and Sexton's already out, like it just fell apart for Jetty.
And I think a consistent thing that you've seen over the last couple seasons
is it doesn't feel like he's had the confidence of the coaching staff, like
he will fall out of the rotation at times. I compared him to an
old clock where the longer you go without a reset, the further off it
gets. And sometimes Jenny just needs a reset where you need to pull him
out of the lineup for a couple of games get him back. And and
I know everyone thinks of JB. Bickerstaff as a defense first coach, but
I think what his bias is really is just play hard. Like Lowry Market
isn't a good defender, but he played hard within what they were asking him
to do, which is really what they're asking and bringing the table, and
Jenny's effort kind of would come and go. So I do think, especially
if they are bringing in another perimeter player through the draft, like there just
isn't a spot for Jenny, and I feel like some team is going to
at least have a use for him, like he is a helpful rotation player,
and I think if you're bringing him into a situation where there is a
backup point guard that can generate shots for him, He's going to knock those
down at a decent and rate. So he would probably be my pick.
After that, I would see Caris Lavert just because I think despite him not
playing that well with the Calves, I think there's still value both in what
he can bring on the court and as an expiring contract. One of my
favorite scenarios that I was pitching was Caris Lavert and and fourteen for Jeremy Grant.
If they feel like that could work and work on an extension there,
I don't think that's likely. It seems like Detroit's probably asking for the moon
and the stars with him. But I do Thinkiston's nation thinks that they're going
to get number seven from the Blazers for Jeremy Grant, and if they probably
seven in Simon's if they get that fantastic for Detroit. Again, we already
we touched upon the wild. Is that important? But yeah, I would
be Jeremy Grant would be great. I just it does feel like you're right,
the Pistons are expecting a lot more. Yeah, which is why I've
kind of become enamored with Tarry Easton. Like I know he's raw, but
I also like watch him in college and I'm like, oh, that's young
Jeremy Grant. That that is like a lot of the same flaws. You
know is going to need some time. But I feel like that's someone that
is just such an athlete that is so disruptive on the defensive end. Like
Jeremy Grant isn't a perfect player. I understand that, but when you think
about like a Grant mobili Allen where Grant shot basically the same percentage from three
at the same volume as Lowry markin in the last couple of years, Like
I think the defensive versatility that you would have with that lineup. You'd be
asking him to do less on defense than he has ever been asked to do,
and keeping him in that kind of confined role and keeping him as a
play finisher. I think that's really really exciting possibility. I just don't think
it's a very likely one. Where does Isaaca Coro fit into the larger context
of this team. It's like he's he's fantastic on defense for the most part.
Some of the stuff he does off the ball, it's just, you
know, incredible. I don't know what he is on offense. He's hit
he had he shot well after you All Star break from three, and he's
hit more of his corner threes or his career than I think people realize.
I just don't know whether it's an issue of they haven't optimized them yet,
they're not built to optimize them, or is this just an incredibly finite skilled
player on the offensive side. And then if you have the lineups you're running
right now, how he fits into the Calv's longer term A man A Coro
is a tough guy for me to get a read on, because you watch
like his highlights, like the eye. It's Cavalier podcast did a really good
job of like kind of putting together his season highlights in chronological order, and
you watch it and you're like, my god, this is like one of
the most dynamic offensive players I've seen. But then you notice the opposing jerseys
change a little more frequently than you'd like, and you're like, oh,
that was only like two or three good plays and flashes within one game,
and then it's the next game. And that's really the issue with Acro And
I think Kobe Allman actually phrase it perfectly in kind of the exit interview where
he said, we need to work on unlocking isaacle Coro. And to me,
I think the biggest thing for him is he needs to improve his handle
because he is not able to get where he wants you on the court.
But when you see him get the ball off a cut, like, he
will make really smart reads. He plays very good team basketball. His skill
set just isn't at the level where he can take advantage of his IQ at
this moment. And he's a very good finisher at the rim, like you
will see creative finishes, and there's the touch and as you mentioned, the
three point shooting got better, Like he improved his field goal percentage by six
percent, he increases three point percentage by six percent, his free throw shooting
went up by five percent. Like across the board, he did get better.
He just didn't scale up the volume. And I think that's the biggest
thing. And I don't know where he fits into this because as we mentioned,
like there's the questions about who they draft, what Colin Sexton looks like?
Is Sexton all the way back? He probably benefits from having that injury
so early in the season where he's probably going to get a good portion of
an off season here to actually get back up to game speed. It's going
to come down to development. And on the one hand, I think it's
really good to have that internal competition. These are all really hard working guys
that get along really well, that they have relationships even before they came to
the Cavs, and I think that's really beneficial. But it's going to be
a crunch for those minutes, Like you're going to have to really go out
there and compete and provide something reliable. So for a coro, I know
everyone focuses on the three point shooting and I know it got better, but
if I could pick one skill set for him to add, it's improving that
handle, because if he could be kind of like a smaller version of Egodala
for them, I think that that's a player that's really helpful within a rotation
because as good as his defense is, he's not a high event defender like
he is in position and he's contesting shots and he's not giving up easy opportunities
on or off ball, and that's very valuable. But when you put him
on a very good shot maker, like guys hit shots over good defense all
the time. So I think he needs to add to his box score in
order to help justify him getting minutes. He's in sort of a weird spot
where I think he's still intriguing enough to where you can't sell low on him,
but he also feels like if there is maybe a larger deal and I
don't know how aggressive the casual going to be on a trademarket, that's no
longer someone who feels like he's mentioned in the same breath as the no brain
or core of this team. So here's one for you. This came up
yesterday because we now have both Chris Feodore and Evan dam All mentioned Gary Harris
or sorry, Gary Trench Junior as a realistic trade target, and there seems
to be some buzz that Toronto is at least listening to offers there. Would
you do Lavert and a core for Gary Trench Junior knowing that you probably are
going to have to pay him a fair bit in the near future. I
would not because I think you're gonna need to pay Carraslavert fair bit and you've
made your offense, which is already pretty fragile when it comes to shooting a
lot worse like Gary Trent Junior's outside shooting I think is super important to that
team. You get more playmaking from Lavert of course, and Okoro fits with
whatever they're doing there where it's like, oh, if you're under six five
or over six ten, like we're not going to play you. But from
a cast perspective, you absolutely do that right Oh with Garry Tren Junior is
a perfect fit for this team. Yeah, he's even an Ohio guy,
He's from Columbus. It's perfect. You know. It's writings on the wall.
And in that scenario, I guess you are keeping the fourteenth pick as
well. I would imagine that there'd be more compensation in there, but to
me, that would be a really interesting possibility. It's funny that you mentioned
the Raptors, and I'm pretty sure it's sacrilegious to do this, especially to
someone who lives in Canada. But I've given a lot of thought and I
think he's a fantastic player and I absolutely would not move him. But I'm
looking at Scottie Barnes. The season, Siakam just had something felt a little
weird with Ogan and Nobi on offense. He want to drop up the way
he was supposed to. I think part of that is just I mean,
there was the stop and start of his season was definitely hurtful. But now
you look at just the functional makeup of that team and I'm like, is
he just someone who might be a little bit more gettable than we think?
Because the Raptors seem primed to make like a like a capslock move, it
doesn't feel like Massa is gonna sit in this mid rung territory forever. And
when you start to get into their contracts, it's like, Okay, well
they don't have like the blue chip cornerstone Aside from Scotty Barnes, you don't
trade, and so you get into like what their salary fillers would be,
and it's no, it's not gonna be Siakam anymore. It's not gonna be
like Van Fleet. And then you get to Garret Trench Junior like you mentioned,
or I've just wondered if Oganna Nobi's all of a sudden more gettable than
he's ever been. So here's my thinking on this, and I'm on the
same page, because you could definitely tell like there was times where Og was
a little frustrated, like when Scotty and see akhamore healthy, like he went
way down in the pecking mortar, and this is someone that's got up to
to twenty points per game. I think that would probably be put Some of
the thinking if they were to move on from Gary tren Jr. Is Okay,
we need to get Siaka or we need to get Og more touches to
help keep him happy, and that sort of thing. My thinking is,
like, I agree, I think Og would be the perfect fit. I
don't see a world where Messiah Jerry, even if the Cats had the best
offer, would send Og to play with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, Like,
especially when you're talking about like two young teams in the Eastern Conference that
are probably going to play in the playoffs at some point. Given the history
of these teams have had, he is not ever going to allow that front
court to exist because that front court would ruin lies like that, that's a
front court where you see it. You walk into a gym plane pick up
in those three years standing there together, and you take your ball and you
go home, Like, I do not know what you would do against those
guys, but I definitely agree, like I think that that's a really interesting
situation a monitor like maybe maybe Portland takes a swing and offers up seven and
some players to go get Og or something like that. If we can circle
back to to the Blazers talk like, I think that would be a savvy
move and can correct the wrong of them passing on Og in the draft years
ago. But I do think like that's just that would be a dream scenario
and I would love to add a player like that. It just when you
get to reality. I can't see Massi ever ever ever doing that, and
if he did, I would question what the Cavs gave up at that point,
because it's I think, and I don't even think this is enough.
But like you start with Okoro and fourteen and then you're building out the package
from there and I don't even know, like if you get him to say,
yes, that that was a great I don't give that enough thought.
I think that's one of the dangers of covering the entire league because I'm not
really thinking about which teams won't like if it's you know, division rivals or
something, or you might face them in the playoffs. But I'm not thinking
like that, And I could totally see Massi being that type of guy.
That's no, I'm not I'm not sending in Cleveland. I'm not like,
well, especially because they are young teams like you have the Scotty Barnes have
a mobile head to head and who knows, like maybe that dynamics going to
get a little different in Toronto next season where they don't need to force feed
Scotty Barnes point guard possessions because they're no longer trying to get him Murky of
the Year, Like you know that a little bit of a shot I had
to get in, but you know, uh, the offense might just you
know, look a little bit different and there's probably going to be more opportunities
for OG. So uh, well, well, we'll see how that plays
out. I think like I could see the Trend Junior possibility more so then
the OG, just because, like you look at how much Toronto invested in
developing OG and what a success story that is, and just how good of
a fitty would be with the Cavs. I just feel like Trent, it's
it's a different caliber. You're You're in a rung where it's probably a little
easier for Toronto swallow and not as worried about playing against him in a playoff
series. You're also you know, if you're bringing back Arry Tren Junior,
and or if you're bringing in excuse me, Garry Trench Jui, you know
that you're probably going to resign him if he declines his player option. I
would go say, you'd be doing you know, clutch of solid just before
Lebron's own free agency. But I think OG is with clutch as well.
I'm not as up here, so yes either or bos Well for that reunion.
Is there anyone or anything about this off season for the Calves? I
did not ask you about that. You think it needs to be discussed.
So the thing I'm kind of trying to figure out is especially if they are
adding help on the perimeter, Like let's say they draft someone on the perimeter
and they sign a free agent that can give them some minutes there. I'm
really starting to wonder can Lowry Marketing and Kevin Love be on the same team,
because when Lowry was signed during the sign and trade another example of signing
trades being back in vogue, I think the thinking was, Okay, Kevin
Love was not healthy enough to play last season, and Lowry is someone that
can split time with Mobley and Allen. He's going to play in that backup
for role, and I think the idea was to keep him in the role
that Kevin Love was in. But Kevin Love was so healthy and so good
and so bought in that they had to find ways to make it work,
and playing Lowry at the three, given their need for spacing with that lineup,
ended up working out pretty damn well. Long term, I still have
a lot of questions because if you're drafting someone to be your long term three,
or even if you're just giving serious minutes to someone at the three,
and Kris Lavert might need to make play some minutes there because o'koro and sex
In are eating garden minutes, Like the minute crunch gets weird, and I
wonder if Lowry marketing might be available, or if they look to move Kevin
Love or something along those lines, because just with the minute crunch it gets
really, really tricky, Like one of the reasons they had to let Isaiah
Hardenstein go last season was the fact that there just wasn't minutes to offer,
Like when Ed Davis signed at media Day, he said, I'm not here
to play minutes like Evian Mumble's playing the backup center minutes. And even if
they they bring in a center like, there's just fewer and fewer minutes available
at the four or five positions. So I'm really interested to see how that
plays out. I think it can work for another year. But just given
Lowry rehabbing some of his trade value, given Love being an expiring contract and
showing that he's willing to accept a smaller role, I do wonder if there's
going to be trade interest in an ability for the Calves to address some needs
given those guys. So I was actually having this discussion was one of my
co workers the other day about Kevin Love, who it was really cool to
see him have a bounce backseason and Lowry as well, obviously, but it
was just with Kevin Love staying in Cleveland, everything that's happened since he signed
that extension, it was just fun to watch. I feel like the team
I'm gonna mention would only do this because they're trying to get out of the
contract they'd be sending to Cleveland. I'd just be curious what the framework of
a Love for Gordon Hayward deal would look like, because you mentioned Cleveland talking
like turning these You're rolling these contracts into different contracts that maybe they reboot or
just super useful to them. He's like the quintessential example. He has two
years left. Love has the one Charlotte cash base doesn't mean much, but
they've they started paying players. They paid Terry Rosier. They have to.
They have no choice but to pay Miles Bridges now make a run at Aiden
like you never know, right, So, and Love is not gonna He
does not fix anything they need from the center position. But just if they
were. People mentioned Russell Westbrook because he's an expiring contract. Kevin Loves like
an actual digestible expiring contract where it's not a trillion dollars. I mean ignoring
the injury history, ignoring everything that comes with Gordon Hayward. What he brings
from a skill set perspective is very good for the Cavs. Like that that
would be a really really helpful player to have, Like that allows you to
play Garland off ball, Like he just makes so much sense that that's something
that I definitely would find interesting. I would make a lot of sense.
Again, you'd probably be moving Lowry into that kind of six man or third
big role where he's still getting like twenty eight minutes aggered with Mobley and Allen.
I think that would be a really really interesting possibility, Like if you
were to like swap Lavert for Conley and Love for Hayward, and then you
have all these young guys coming off the bench. I think that's like there's
so many kind of mix and match possibilities with the lineup, and I think
that that, like that that's the type of versatility that I want to see
from the Calf next season because I feel like we are still at a point
where JB. Bickerstaff did a really great job, but we're learning about what
he is and isn't as a coach right, and I think people too often
treats coaches as a static commodity rather than someone that, like players can have
good and bad games and good bad years. And JB, I think when
you look at the extension he signed and the extension Kobe signed becoming president of
the team, it feels like they're laying out a five year plan and I'm
interested in seeing over the next four years what kind of adjustments, what development
they make, and whether or not JB can grow alongside this team. I'm
really high on him. I think you look at the level of buy and
he was getting from the players, and the creative ways that he made the
lineup work despite a lot of very clear deficiencies. I'm really excited about that.
I just want to see what does it look like when there is more
versatile personnel around them. I'm just I'm so endlessly fascinating. I feel like
I'm endlessly fascinated with every team, but the Calves are going into this offseason
all of sudden with expectations because of what happened this past year, and that's
just super intriguing. The Calves with those expectations, separated from Lebron for the
first time and forever. Is just feels like it could be just a very
pivotal and even like sort of wacky, wild offseason for them. So I'm
just absolutely here for it. Yeah, And the funny thing is we talk
all these scenarios, I don't expect like mass mass with shakeups this offseason.
Like I think for the most part, it's going to be running it back.
There's going to be some moves along the margin because Karros Lavert, as
we said, it didn't work out. But when you look at it,
what's Karis Lavert's greatest strength? Pick and roll ball handling From a points per
possession standpoint, he had more points per possession in those situations than even Darius
Garland. But he did not get to play a single game with Jared Allen
after the All Star break, who was basically their only player that could set
us screen. Because Kevin Love is going to pop every single time he doesn't
give that vertical spacing, He's got a chance to rehab his value. Collin
Sexton very effective pick and roll score. You hope that Evan Mobley is going
to get better in those situations setting screens. Isaac O Coral Like I feel
like Sexton, O, col and Lavert's value could not be lower than it
is right now. They may still have value, but I feel like they
have an opportunity to really play better next season in defined roles or in Colin
Sexton's case, prove that he can get back on a basketball court. Right.
So, I think the smartest move for them might be minor tweaks on
the margins, bring addressing the backup point guard p bring in someone like the
Lawn right would be great. And there's reports that there's a mutual interest between
Ricky Ruby and the Calves of getting back together. So if you bring in
Ricky as kind of coach Ricky, he's not going to play until January,
but you know he's on the bench and maybe gives them an option after the
trade deadline if they were to make a consolidation move. I think there's a
lot of interesting ways that the Calves can get better throughout the course of the
season and not just focus on making the moves this offseason because they feel like
they have to. I do think that's important to keep in mind. Is
one. I'm also a firm believer and like, let's get Carra Slavert a
training camp and practice time, a more practice time with the team. And
then also is in the Cavs situation specifically because they overachieved most pretty much none
of their best players are in their prime. Garen Allen comes closest, I
guess, And so there's that potential you could do nothing or just like you
said, the minor tweaks and there is that runway for growth from within.
And I could see reactions being, oh, if the Calves want to get
back to the playoffs in the East, like actually get out of the play
in or escape that territory and tire like they needed to make a bigger swing.
It's like no, like we saw Darius Garland just turned into an All
Star. He made like a trillion percent on floaters like that, dude is
so good. There's the potential for them to do very little. And actually,
I know progress isn't linear, but they could just wind up being much
better by virtue of letting their the word I said before, letting this talent,
letting this core marinate a little bit. Yeah, I mean, Ricky
Rubia went down in December and the end of December, and then the Cavs
went through January with an eleven and four record. Even without him, they
managed to actually improve their winning percentage and they were half game out of the
one seat in the Eastern Conference. After that point, Lowry got hurt,
Garland got hurt. By the time they came back, Alan was hurt,
Lavert was out, like it just it was so brutal, and Garland mobile
and Allen only played forty games together last season and they still had that level
of success that to me is really really exciting, and you just hope,
you know, you get a little more support around them. And I really
feel like there was kind of a cascading effect of the injuries, right like
when Sexton goes down in Game eleven, all of a sudden, there's more
of a load of Ricky Rubio, and then he goes down, and then
there's more of a load on Daris Garland, and then he gets the back
issues that flare up. And when you add in some freak injuries like Jared
Allen just happening to hit his finger on the rim and breaking it and missing
a month and a half, like you just you keep decreasing your room for
air throughout the course of the season. So I'm hoping that a full off
season a little more support around them, even having like a full off season
with Karris Laverne in a training camp, like I feel what he can bring
in kind of that reserve rule or twenty eight minutes a night can really add
some dynamic looks to their offense. So I'm excited about what this offseason can
be even without an imajor shakeup, because they're primed to do one at some
point, but there needs to be the name available that justifies it, Like
I don't think dejan Day Murray is going to be on the trademarket. I
would love to make a massive run at Dejant and consolidate some assets and just
have these two dynamic guards playing together alongside Mobile and Allen, but that just
doesn't feel realistic. Yeah, I fancy myself pretty good at spotting, like
what could be that next player, like the player that becomes available right now,
it feels like there's a dearth of those candidates, which makes it difficult
and again why you shouldn't expect major changes. Justin this was great as always.
Are you able to tell our listeners where they can find you and all
the great work that you do. Absolutely, you can find me on Twitter
at Cavsenna. Just slap the Calves into the Canada and you'll find me there.
I apologize for everything you see after that fact. You can also find
me at the Chase Down podcast wherever you get your podcast, wherever you listen
to this podcast, if you're listening to it, you can find the Chase
Down there. You can also find us on the Calves YouTube channel. We
usually go live for most of our podcasts there, so that's basically uh where
I'm confined to these days. Dan, Thank you so much for having no
problem, Thank you for jumping on. As you know by now, I'll
be fustinate you again in the future, once this off season is all said
and done, and hopefully everything goes well for the Calves and they continue to
stay relevant and people actually want to talk to me as a result.