WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.040 Hey, folks, I just want to take a minute to ask you to 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:07.519 go in rate this podcast, let the Team House know how you think we're 3 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:11.119 doing. Go and rate us on whatever platform you're listening to this on, 4 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:16.320 whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever else. Those ratings really help us out 5 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:19.640 and we really appreciate the feedback to let us know what you like and what 6 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:23.760 you don't like. And if you do like the Teamhouse and you'd like to 7 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:27.320 support us, go check out our Patreon page and you can actually support the 8 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:32.799 stream and well as get access to our bonus segments and bonus episodes. Yeah, 9 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.520 if you're gonna give us a great review, please do. And if 10 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:37.600 you're going to give us another secret view, why don't you just send us 11 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:50.880 an email. We'll talk about special operations covert, ask me an the Team 12 00:00:50.920 --> 00:01:02.880 House with your hopes. Jack Murphy and David Park. Hey everyone, welcome 13 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:06.040 to episode two hundred and twenty six of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy 14 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.879 who at David Park, and our guest in studio this time is Gary Harrington. 15 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:12.159 We had Gary on the show once remotely were really happy to have him 16 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:17.120 here in studio this time. I think Gary had a pretty extensive career serving 17 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:22.879 in the Marine Corps and special Forces in Delta and then another governmental agency and 18 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.680 yeah, we're just really excited to have you here. Man. Well, 19 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.359 thanks, I appreciate you guys letting me be on last time, and hey 20 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:36.159 get to come up to New York and see you in person. So we're 21 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:40.319 to begin. We covered a lot last I think we did three hours last 22 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:47.680 time. Okay, we're gonna give a quick shout out to to one of 23 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:52.840 our sponsors tonight. If you need accurate medical evidence and can maximize your VA 24 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:59.120 benefits, then check out re Medical r EE Medical and their teams specialist our 25 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.519 spat, our passionate and experienced about helping veterans. Find out how they can 26 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:09.120 help you at re r EE medical dot com slash teamhouse. That's r EE 27 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:17.680 medical dot com slash teamhouse. So Gary, I mean, I think like 28 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:22.680 let's start off a story about a young Gary Harrington. When you said you 29 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:24.800 were talking about being a young lieutenant in the Marine Corps, you had some 30 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:30.439 a story about a CS grenade that went awry. Yeah, well I was 31 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:37.719 the typical young lieutenant. Everything's black and white in the Marine Corps. Hey 32 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:44.039 high diddle, diddles straight up the middle, a lot of motivation. I 33 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.000 don't know if I said it last time, but I never was a great 34 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:53.800 person for or a respecting authority, And so right off the bat in my 35 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.879 military career I sort of bucked the trend. I think I talked last time. 36 00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:05.080 I had a mustache as a marine officer, which wasn't looked well upon. 37 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:09.919 And in the basic school one time I challenged an issue that I thought 38 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:16.080 was unjust, and uh called the commander out on it and in front of 39 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:21.159 everybody, and he said, you know, Lieutenant Harrington, some day, 40 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.360 if your brains ever get as big as your balls, you might go somewhere 41 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:29.719 in the land Corps. And uh, you know, of course I ran 42 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:32.560 into him a few years later, but uh yeah, I was, you 43 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:39.319 know, I was a infantry platoon commander, and I thought, you know, 44 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:45.560 I was pretty hard on guys. I wanted to be a taskmaster. 45 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.319 I had worshiped, no, maybe worships a strong word, but really admired 46 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.680 Yoni net and Yahoo, and I read the book Yoni Hero of Entebbi, 47 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:01.479 and I wanted to emulate his training style and the things that he did to 48 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:06.240 prepare his people for what they did and then Tabby. So yeah, I 49 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:15.399 ran pretty harsh training scenarios and one time some guys weren't doing everything as they 50 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.480 should. They got lack of daisical on a tactical side. So I decided 51 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:26.519 to hit him with some CS. And I had the CS grenades or from 52 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:30.240 a grenade launcher, and I thought, it's CS, it can't hurt anybody. 53 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:32.279 And it was in the woods, and I didn't really think about being 54 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:36.720 a young, stupid lieutenant that hey, when his CS round hits a tree 55 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:42.639 trunk and starts ricocheting around, you know, winds up hitting somebody, it's 56 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.680 uh, you know, I mean that's almost like an ad right, So 57 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:51.279 yeah, that was a lesson that, hey, you know, things can 58 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.639 can hurt. What seems harmless is not. You know. Several years later, 59 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.120 I was in a training exercise and you know, it turned if you 60 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:05.639 ever done force on force, sometimes it turns into that argument, no I 61 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:12.959 shot you first, No you shot me an argument and I had some you 62 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.839 know, I was an officer. I had some young guy and his sergeant 63 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:23.120 standing there holding grenade launcher at me, you know, arguing with me. 64 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:28.160 Ever, who was right on this on this tactical call and I said, 65 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:33.360 moved that grenade launcher off my stomach, and he goes, it's just an 66 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:41.279 a loom round from from you know, from two feet away. That's going 67 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.879 to leave a forty millimeter hole in my yea. So you know, you 68 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.199 don't have to think about those kind of things. I think often when you're 69 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:55.560 really young, you know, then later many years later in SF, after 70 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:01.839 you've made enough mistakes that you've survived, or your senior friends make those mistakes. 71 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.079 I was the guy that when the new team guys had this, you 72 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:10.319 know, like, hey, what if you know, like in Kuwait, 73 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:15.319 we find a old bombed out mortar, sixty millimeter mortar, so we st 74 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:23.319 people start dropping a loom and grenade simulators down it to make all these things 75 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:28.240 happen. You know, I was smart enough in my old age to walk 76 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:30.000 over to the side and sit on this bank and look at him, go, 77 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.639 I'll patch you up when you when you need it, because I ain't 78 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:40.920 doing that. So going back to the CS and the forest, so you 79 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:47.600 shoot the CS this forty cus around it starts bouncing off trees. Did did 80 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.680 this CS actually deploy? Actually I don't remember that part because what I remember 81 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.800 is it hit a guy in the cheek? And then so did you tell 82 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.759 him to like, how did you responded? You apology? You tell him 83 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.920 to suck it off? No, I ran over to him and to see 84 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:10.279 how hurt he is, and I don't I can't remember if it knocked a 85 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:14.399 twoth out or you know, it wasn't a serious hurt. And to be 86 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.639 honest, you know, you know this was the whole Marine Corps. We 87 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:23.160 kind of just shook it off. And I was like, hey, you 88 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.160 know, I didn't know do that. You know, I planned on it 89 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.120 shooting it into the ground and deploying to see us and yeah, that was 90 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.920 it. So after that I learned my lesson, and like in the foxholes, 91 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:40.199 if I would crawl around in the middle of the night, foxhole to 92 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:44.160 foxhole, if I put him on fifty percent alert, and I would softly 93 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.800 call out the names of the people in the foxhole, and if I didn't 94 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.759 get an answer, I'd just pop a see Us grenade and drop it into 95 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:56.879 foxhole, which works really well when they're zipped up inside their sleeping bags. 96 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.360 As you probably all know, I don't you get away with that anymore. 97 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.959 Probably there's a lot of things yeah, yeah. You know, when I 98 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.360 was in the Corps, I it was the old days. You know. 99 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:16.920 I went through the PLC where you know, the sergeants took the young candidates 100 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:22.759 around the corner, and I thought, that's how things are done. And 101 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:28.879 you know, my first my first company in the Marine Corps infantry, I 102 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:35.399 mean, you know, the commander wanted to play rugby, so it was 103 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:41.559 his chance to to put you know, some licking on people. I might 104 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:50.440 have used physical inducement a few times in the Marine Corps. I got called 105 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.639 on the carpet for that. And you know, I understand all that now, 106 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.840 but at the time, you're you're taught that's how things are. And 107 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.120 in those days, again you're young. Everything's black and white, and it 108 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.559 was I have to get these people ready for combat. A weak person, 109 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:13.440 a person that doesn't pay attention is somebody going to get other people killed. 110 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:20.559 Therefore, anything I do to prepare them for that is justified. Right now, 111 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:26.039 of course, I don't view it that way anymore, but when you're 112 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:31.080 young and idealistic, I mean, that's that's how you think, right It's 113 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.600 how you justify doing those things, because it's like everything is so important, 114 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.159 well and especially in a peacetime military. I think that that the idea of 115 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.799 how to make somebody hard or how to make them ready is very different than 116 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.519 what the reality is because in a wartime milits are often they don't even they 117 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.480 don't have time for that. You know, it's like get them trained up 118 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.320 and get them deployed, and that's that. But in a peacetime military, 119 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:58.919 like that's what, that's what everybody thought. That's you know, the hazy, 120 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:03.600 the smoking all that is, like, yeah, that's how we form 121 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.120 unity, that's how we form a bond, and outside of combat, like, 122 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.639 how else do you do that? A lot of times, well, 123 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:16.639 it's part of ritualization and a crucible that everybody goes through which forms cohesion in 124 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:20.480 a shared bond. Absolutely. I mean it might sound sick to some people 125 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.960 that aren't used to that to the extremes that it can go, but you 126 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:30.639 know, it was all part of that going through some some ritual just as 127 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:35.679 like uh Indian braves were supposed to go through when they reached maturity. Right, 128 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:41.919 yeah, that's fascinating. So what And unfortunately I wasn't here when you 129 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.279 were on so I might if I ask you any questions that you've already talked 130 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.759 about. You know, I apologize and apologize, but or she doon't matter. 131 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:54.080 I won't remember. Great, I wouldn't remember either. So but so 132 00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:03.440 what led you from the Marine Corps to the Army. So as a I 133 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:09.320 went from the regular infantry to recon and fib Recon school, Special Forces Scoop 134 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:20.200 of school, scout sniper instructor school, and deployed to Beirut. You know, 135 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:26.279 thought life was great. I'm living during the adventure twenty six years old. 136 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.440 Then I finished my time. I was on the platoon. They said, 137 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.399 oh, now you have to go be the training officer, like the 138 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:39.519 what the training officer up in the three shop? Yeah, so I went 139 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:45.120 to there reviewing other people's training instead of doing it. So that was a 140 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.559 big blow to me and what I thought I should be doing. And to 141 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:54.879 be honest, I started envying the sergeants and the corporals that were on my 142 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.039 recon team because they were doing the do and running things and leading the patrols. 143 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.120 And in a Marine Corps, you know, was foolish enough to promote 144 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:13.039 me to captain. And so I got to notice, oh, congratulations, 145 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:18.320 you're a captain, and now you get to go to Marine barracks duty and 146 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.080 I was like, not feeling, but that's not that's not me, and 147 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:30.279 you know, we're young. I thought my role in life was to die 148 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:35.600 in car you know, it's it's hard, and it's tied to some religious 149 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.840 beliefs I had and some events that I thought that was my role in life, 150 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.399 and like, you're taking that away from me. You're going to go 151 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:50.240 make me do what? And then yeah, there's a command path to follow 152 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:56.360 as an officer if you do that. But I at that time didn't want 153 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:00.240 any of that. So, you know, I looked for a way to 154 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:07.000 get out and I so I resigned and went to enlist in the Army. 155 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.840 I think last time we talked about I was in the middle of a map 156 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:18.039 station enlisting for Special Forces on an active duty when an officer recruiting officer ran 157 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.960 in stopped me from swearing in and said it showed us a line in the 158 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.480 rags, saying former officers of other branches of military may not enlist in the 159 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:33.080 United States Army. Oh wow. And I kind of was like what, 160 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.720 And you know, it was a shock. I came back. I'm pretty 161 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:45.840 good at workarounds, so I think, as you pointed out last time I 162 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:50.639 found I looked at the Army Reserve, that line wasn't in their rags. 163 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:56.639 So I enlisted in the Army Reserve Special Forces, got qualified as a medic 164 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.320 and then the Army had, uh I think R two ten dot whatever said 165 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:11.320 that if you got qualified in a shortage MOS, which as seth metics were, 166 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.480 you could come on active duty in the Army. So now I showed 167 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.879 up like and they said, wait a minute, aren't you the same guy 168 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.679 that we I said, yeah, but here's the difference. Now I'm this 169 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.440 so how do you want to look at it? And uh? When you 170 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.399 resign a commission, when you you know, resign you were a captain? 171 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.559 What what enlisted? Right? Because like if you're a college grad, don't 172 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.840 they give you E four or something like that? Like what what unless you 173 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.879 got E five five? I think the Army did me better than the agency 174 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.679 because later on life, you know, agency was telling me, you know 175 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.559 where I was out in the field when I was detailed, Yeah, GS 176 00:14:54.679 --> 00:15:01.000 twelve you know like that, And I come in and they go eleven at 177 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.600 the very bottom eleven, Oh and case oo, case offcer operations officer. 178 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:13.559 No, but that's what the No, you can be a support officer and 179 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:20.159 maybe you work your way someday two to be in an operations officer. Yeah. 180 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.759 So uh so you go to SF, you go to SF Guard and 181 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.159 then you get active and I'm sure you guys talked about all this, so 182 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.000 Jack, oh, I'm just bad to w Yeah, I mean we can 183 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.879 cover briefly. So you find your way to s F and then from the 184 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:41.799 reserves into active duty. Right, seventh group And what year was this? 185 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.000 I probably showed up for it because I resigned Marine Corps in late eighty four, 186 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.960 went through SF training and medic course and all that. So eighty five 187 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:03.320 and probably six so probably no active duties seven group eighty seven. So seventh 188 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.039 Group at that time is like doing a lot of pumps down a like Honduras 189 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:11.480 and places like that. Yeah, I did the Honduras pumps training their special 190 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.679 there. There's a counter terrorism unit they trained, and I mean there's a 191 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.679 lot of going on down there at the time. But yeah, you know 192 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.679 when when I went, I actually went to Honduras as a Marine. I 193 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:26.960 think we mentioned last time, saw a secret one of those secret black sites 194 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:33.919 that had been active and in those times and I went back in the Army. 195 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.399 The first time, we were up at Lake Atchoa, way up in 196 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:42.399 the mountains. It's big lake because they actually for a while had a Honduran 197 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:48.840 Special Forces unit and we were training them and I was the medical on the 198 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:55.039 team and got to dive up in that lake for my first high altitude kind 199 00:16:55.039 --> 00:17:00.679 of dive in a lake. Yeah. So I mean that was kind of 200 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.480 like also your first exposure probably to the special ops, but also what the 201 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:11.119 agency was doing down there in those days. Yeah. When when I went 202 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:19.079 as a marine, I somehow wound up in the little village one late one 203 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:25.880 night with a bunch of old former military guys who were applying me with drinks. 204 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:33.000 And they were people that were sort of working that program that was going 205 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.440 into Nicaragua. I think Frank McClosky we've had on here, Rick Prato, 206 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.519 Yes, well, and then not trying to drop down they were if they 207 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:47.119 were the ones applying you with drinks, well it was a lot, you 208 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:52.000 know. I was again, I was a Marine lieutenant and you know, 209 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:57.640 that's my first time with all these foreign people and sitting around at outdoor table 210 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.799 and and they just had lines of beers lined up and up plying me with 211 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:10.559 him. I remember I maybe in my life there had been five or six 212 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.599 times I've actually been knocked down drunk. That was one of them. I 213 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:21.400 remember getting back to where the platoon was, where the rest of the Marines 214 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.960 were, and getting my poncho and walking over to this mound of dirt and 215 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.759 just falling over on it, on top of the poncho, and that was 216 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:37.119 it. So this is just a very specific question, but which wings did 217 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:44.839 you choose to wear when you went to SF. Oh So, I had 218 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:49.480 not been to airborne school as a marine, but I went to Special Forces 219 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:56.640 Scuba School. So one of the pleasures I had during airborne school was I 220 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:03.079 showed up wearing a scuba badge and those instructors started calling me on it that 221 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.119 saying that I was a liar, that you can't get to scuba school unless 222 00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.200 you've been to airborne school, and I said I was a marine and I 223 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:18.640 did so every day I got to pay some extra punishment for my badge and 224 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.480 did that. You know, But again, I think at airborne school they're 225 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:30.039 just looking for a reason to do that. One of the funny stories about 226 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:34.119 my time I went to Honduras a couple of times, but one of the 227 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.759 trips there, and I think I went down a third time for a medical 228 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:45.279 mission where yeah, one of the medcaps. And in one of the missions 229 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.880 there with my team, we were down in La Saba, down on the 230 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:56.400 coast, and I met this old coat in a bar, some old American 231 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:02.519 guy and I we were that's it's when we were training the guys up at 232 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.440 Lake Achoa and to get to Lasaba to have like a couple of days off, 233 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.880 I had ridden in the back of a steak bed truck for like six 234 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.519 hours, just some local guys truck to get there. So I'm trying to 235 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.920 figure outw I'm gonna get back back up to the end to the mountains, 236 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.920 and this old little guy says, Hey, I got a plane down here 237 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:29.119 I fly. He goes, I'm flying up to an airfield near there. 238 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.240 You can fly up with me tomorrow. And I was like, well, 239 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.200 hey, that that I mean that I would save a lot of trouble. 240 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.960 But but then I thought about it. I was like, something doesn't seem 241 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.720 right, so I didn't and it turned out this was that flight. I 242 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.799 don't know if you guys remember, but there was a guy that flew his 243 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:56.880 airplane and crossed into Nicaragua and was forced down and was held prisoner for a 244 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.960 while. He was kind of like a wannabe guy, I guess it turned 245 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.319 out. And you know, some people thought he was a contractor or something 246 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.480 with some of the activities going on. And I was thinking afterwards, like, 247 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:14.279 holy cow, if I was a US Special Forces guy on this plane 248 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:18.200 just trying to hit you ride, why so I could go to look Town 249 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:23.519 and have a few beers do a little recreating. Now I'm in a prison 250 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:30.880 in Nicaragua. The you know, thank god. So we got to give 251 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.759 a shout out to our sponsor here for the show you want to do the 252 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.559 Yeah, okay, for all you veterans out there, let's take them on 253 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:44.799 and tell you about our sponsor, re Medical. We know how difficult it 254 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.440 can be to get accurate disability rating and proper benefits despite your best efforts and 255 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:55.480 multiple doctor visits. 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So let's uh let's jump forward a 301 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:42.319 little bit on what would a seventh group What could a seventh group guy do 302 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.079 in a South American or Latin American country that they would be not want to 303 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.319 talk about we don't. There are a lot of there's a lot of church 304 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:56.799 or physics down there right there are very Catholic religion. Yes, And I'm 305 00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:00.279 gonna stay away from the jokes that come to mind when I come to a 306 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.799 couple of kilos that go on the punching bag on the way home. Don't 307 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.680 do it, guys. I did. I did get stopped coming back out 308 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:15.960 of Honduras or Panama one time. Now I've been delayed. So you're there 309 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.079 and before you get on the bird to come home, I think they had 310 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.559 to change the engine on an aircraft. So we were stuck a few days. 311 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:26.799 And you know how they line all the bags up and bring the dogs 312 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.799 through. So we're all waiting, we're ready to get home. We've been 313 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.559 delayed and delayed and delayed. And then the dog hits on something, and 314 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:38.319 you know, we're all laughing. You're like, yeah, what stupid you 315 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:44.160 know, blah blah blah did whatever to cause this. And then they come 316 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.240 over there and they're holding my Bagio who owns this bag? And hey, 317 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.119 it's me and I went over there and they go a dog hit on it 318 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:57.599 for cocaine and I was like, well, I was open it. There's 319 00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:03.720 snow cocaine, and they well, it was that a dog wouldn't hit on 320 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.440 it unless it had been cocaine in it, or it had been close to 321 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.440 cocaine. I go, it's not, it's you know, I didn't have 322 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:15.559 cocaine. They said, you know, well, of course the dog can't 323 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:22.599 be wrong. So somewhere you were there must have been cocaine there at some 324 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.759 time or other. I'm like, yeah, I mean I was I brushed 325 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:32.960 all that off, yeah, because I mean those dogs. I mean because 326 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:41.200 I think later when I was in Columbia with Delta in ninety two, some 327 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:47.000 DA guys brought some drug dogs through and they were like just old. They 328 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.160 were not I know, they were old, but joints laying around on the 329 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.759 ground, and the dogs never hit on any of that. I'm like, 330 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.640 really, are these dogs that good? Yeah? Or is the stuff that 331 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.640 old? I don't know. Right, Well, let's let's over to that, 332 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.519 because I think that's like a fascinating period of a Special Operations history. 333 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:08.880 In particular, is you know, the whole hunt for Pablico Escobar down there 334 00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:14.759 in Colombia. At that point you were with Delta got the PoID down there. 335 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.359 I mean, can you tell us a little bit about you know what 336 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:18.279 that was like. I mean, it's it's like one of these things that 337 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:23.319 has entered into like mythology, the amount of in some cases nonsense that people 338 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.880 talk about it. But I mean, you guys really were down there, 339 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:32.359 you know, looking for him down there, looking for him my role there, 340 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.240 and I went because I spoke Spanish. To be honest, I was 341 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:44.799 fairly young in Delta time to be picked to go on a classified mission, 342 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:51.279 but it was because I spoke Spanish, and so I went. And I 343 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:57.400 was staying up at the prison that had the nice prison that I guess Pablo 344 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:03.519 funded. They had been built for him. And you know, I was 345 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:11.440 with person from a Sister Jaysucky unit that was had some cigin equipment, and 346 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:19.440 I was doing some surveillance with a long range lens on a couple of houses 347 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:22.880 that were, you know, a couple a few miles away down in the 348 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:30.440 valley and you know, take turns pulling security for each other to sleep fifty 349 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:33.519 two people. It's yeah, it's not really a great life. You're either 350 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:38.720 on a crashper you know, and uh uh, And I couldn't run the 351 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:47.799 cigate equipment, so we did that. And yeah, eventually I did get 352 00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:52.440 down to Mediyan on my way out and got to go on the streets of 353 00:29:52.480 --> 00:30:00.160 Mediyan. I remember that in those days, the local the cops, you 354 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:06.640 know, the local police had been getting hits because people right up beside the 355 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:08.920 trucks or the vehicles they were in, and they need to have a guy 356 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:12.119 on the front of a motorcycle, and the guy on the back of the 357 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:18.400 motorcycle was the gunman. And you know, I know, I rode in 358 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.480 the back of one of those trucks with these guys. So I decided the 359 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.680 first thing I need to do is they're all sitting on the outboard side facing 360 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.440 in, and I said, okay, the first thing is I need to 361 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.960 put you on the inside facing out. And at first, you know, 362 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.240 it's just like any traffic anywhere in a big city. Some people didn't want 363 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:41.880 to stop. And it first had bothered me because I was like, you 364 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.119 know, what can you do? Then I started thinking about it. I 365 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.720 go, hey, this is in America, so it's okay to lean over 366 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:52.200 the side of the truck with the with your rifle. And you know, 367 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.839 if somebody still has the guts to want to come up you maybe a round 368 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:03.319 or two in the hood. You know, nobody's gonna no care here, 369 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:11.680 right, So we didn't have to go to the rounds. But being able 370 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.039 to you know, drop the rifle over the side and was able to stop 371 00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:18.880 vehicles from coming up beside you. So, uh, you know, I 372 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.119 felt that helped keep those guys. Yeah, the very similar tactics that they 373 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.119 use, like you know in Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff, when they you 374 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:33.599 know, with the VBID threat, they weren't as many like sparrow teams in 375 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.759 those countries, right right, But but the v the v BID, the 376 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.000 vehicle born I d s were a big threat. But in Colombia it sounds 377 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.160 like it was similar to like what it was like in the Philippines and uh 378 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.880 and whatnot where they had those sparrow teams that yeah, one of them got 379 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:53.880 row right yeah, yeah yeah. At that time, so this is ninety 380 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.559 two, Papulo's not in his custom made prison at this point right here, 381 00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.799 So he left the prison and you guys are looking for him. Yeah, 382 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.200 well, what was your perception at that time about you know, where where 383 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.960 he was or where you guys were at in regards to the hunt for him. 384 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:19.920 You know, I'm I'm probably wasn't aware of all the the the details, 385 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.200 you know, because I'm the on the nug end of this frame out 386 00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:29.319 there. But yeah, he was long gone. You know. The one 387 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.000 of the things I did was like look through the huts, just looking. 388 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:35.720 I'm I'm looking for intel. It's like, hey, wait a second, 389 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:40.319 has anybody really gone through this? Because I'm finding stuff like here's uh, 390 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:45.880 checkbooks that have account numbers and stuff like that. Has anybody done this? 391 00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:51.279 And and and I don't I'm not sure that that had been done. But 392 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:54.559 again, you know, we're talking nineteen ninety two. You know, a 393 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:01.319 lot of that stuff didn't develop until after nine to eleven, so and nobody 394 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:07.240 had an idea where he was. And a lot of the local populace they 395 00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:13.039 loved him, and you know, I wasn't sure we were going to get 396 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:15.480 him. And again, in nineteen ninety two, we did not have the 397 00:33:15.640 --> 00:33:23.279 robust ability to track phones and and you know, to my knowledge, as 398 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:30.440 we certainly developed later and particularly with the army or with the military, that 399 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.880 capability out the guy with me had stuff he could listen to. But I 400 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:43.480 think that was much more refined and improved over that next decade. And I 401 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.200 mean it was a small team too, right, It was like what ten 402 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:52.079 guys down there? You know, initially two of us were where I was, 403 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:54.240 and then there were some it was there were some seal It was a 404 00:33:54.279 --> 00:34:05.000 mixture of a few Seals and some Elta guys down in Metayen. But the 405 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.719 trail had had gone cold at that point. The trail had gone yeah cold. 406 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.079 I mean it's it's I mean when all of that did go down, 407 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.480 what the next year? I mean, did you have any like insights or 408 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:22.559 any any kind of takeaways from from that sort of campaign down there? No, 409 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:28.400 that campaign is where I actually wounded up getting kicked out of them so 410 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.519 or as a result of things that happened there. So you know what happened 411 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:38.760 after Yeah, having been there, I was curious and I looked at stuff 412 00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.440 and then, uh when was it Bowden wrote the book and all that. 413 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:50.840 You know, some of that I felt accurate, some not. Yeah, 414 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:55.599 I was interested in it, but it's kind of like, uh, yeah, 415 00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.360 yeah, then they sent you down there to do a job. You 416 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:04.280 did the job. It was out Yeah it's not. And that wasn't as 417 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.559 personal, like the whole thing with al Qaeda and been laden after nine to 418 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:14.559 eleven, it just seemed a lot more personal. And I mean, even 419 00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.400 though you know, I think these stories are also interesting in regards to like 420 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:22.280 how we look back at a quote unquote peacetime military when guys like you were 421 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.480 like pretty active. There's that and you came you'd just come out a couple 422 00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:31.199 of years prior or year prior from the Gulf War, right, yeah, 423 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:36.679 and the Gulf War. I yeah, I didn't deploy in the Gulf War. 424 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:44.519 I was doing training new and Delta, you know, so at a 425 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:49.960 certain point in OTC, I think when you've been through the enough shooting and 426 00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:55.000 basic infantry tactics to where you're like a really good ranger, they say okay. 427 00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:00.760 And I know Delta at the time had been talking about, you know, 428 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:07.000 Delta going in on a if they could locate Saddam Hussein and getting him. 429 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:12.159 And they said, okay, you guys in OTC, you're now trained 430 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.880 enough to the point that the rangers will be the outer security, but then 431 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:24.000 the inner security to hold off the Iraqi big Iraqi units, yeah, or 432 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:31.039 will be you and you're gonna fast rope in to these does on these street 433 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:37.599 junctions with a whole bunch of NI tank weapons and you're gonna hold them off. 434 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:42.280 And it was like, hey, that's a one way to It didn't 435 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:49.320 look like it had a real high survival rate, but you weren't a CQB 436 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.960 qualified operator yet, so it was like you're really, you know, high 437 00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:01.280 speed cannon flotter. I think how I kind of looked at it at that 438 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:06.079 point, but in the in the run up to it though, before before 439 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:07.480 that, I mean, weren't either there with a Fifth Group in Kuwait. 440 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:15.639 I was. I didn't go to Fifth Group until nineteen ninety six, Okay, 441 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:22.280 okay, So in ninety six I was my first deployment to Kuwait. 442 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.239 Okay, okay. So that's what I want to mix it up. So 443 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:28.880 you're sort of going through training during during the Gulf War and then ended up 444 00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:34.639 there during like the no fly zone years yep. And and then I went, 445 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:43.039 yeah, that was back after we had the Iraqi war plan. Everybody 446 00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:49.119 assumed that Saddam was going to retake Kuwait at some point, so it was 447 00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:52.719 you know, how can we slow how can the SF people here work with 448 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:59.239 the kuwaitis to slow them down? And give other forces a time to come 449 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.199 and you know, establish a beach hid and get in there. And you 450 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:08.800 told the story last time about you know, the how the Saddam had erected 451 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:12.840 this huge berm over there and there's this big trench line and you kind of 452 00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:15.920 got stuck in it when you were moving an asset over back across the border. 453 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.679 You said, there's another time you went in there and you found a 454 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:27.159 skeleton. Yeah, so this is uh when I was detailed to the agency 455 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:31.840 from two thousand two to two thousand and four. So now it's after Afghanistan 456 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:39.400 in two thousand and one and two and I'm doing cross border stuff with some 457 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:51.480 Kawiti like their equivalent of FBI and a case officer and my job was to 458 00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:00.480 get assets coming out of a rack and go into the un no goes on 459 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:07.280 and get those assets and bring them back to a secret debriefing place where the 460 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:15.400 agency could debrief them and then to get them back into a rack and the 461 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:20.119 you know, so there was this big berm and a fifteen foot deep, 462 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:24.960 fifteen foot wide trench along the border that part of Kuwait, and you had 463 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:31.719 to negotiate that if you wanted to get you know, the other side of 464 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:37.039 that ditch was I rack. So yes, technically, if you wanted to 465 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:42.519 get on a racky soil, you had to cross that ditch. And you 466 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.400 know, we got to the point I worked with that when I first got 467 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.280 there, I had to work with them just to get them out in the 468 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.480 desert, and then work with them and get them up to the berm, 469 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.800 and then work with them to get them, you know, further. And 470 00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:01.960 so one of the times we were down there in the bottom of this trench, 471 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.519 one of the guys comes across a skeleton. They bring me over there, 472 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:13.519 and you know, here's this old dish dasha, which is the you 473 00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:16.280 know, the flowing robe thing that men wear there, and there was a 474 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:24.559 skeleton inside it. There was no skull, and I don't think there were 475 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:30.199 hands or feet, but it was the torso of a of a skeleton. 476 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.800 And I looked at the you know, I remember looking at the label on 477 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:39.000 the dish dash of trying to figure out was it Iraqi or Kuwaiti. And 478 00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:45.480 so I thought, well, so either somebody murdered somebody and dumped them out 479 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:52.199 here, or some person got in this ditch and you know, tried to 480 00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:59.159 cross the border and got stuck in the ditch and eventually you know, expired. 481 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.880 Well, I thought where it's probably animals right, had taken it off, 482 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:09.159 or maybe not. And you know, when you when you've been pushing 483 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:15.360 a long time. We've all been on deployments where it's been a long time. 484 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:20.519 For me, you know, nineteen ninety eight and ninety nine, I 485 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:25.800 was in Yemen pushing hard. Two thousand, Kuwait on a classified thing, 486 00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:36.519 pushing hard, two thousand and one two interrac our Afghanistan, pushing hard straight 487 00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:44.199 to Iraq or Kuwait now two thousand and two. Three. You lose a 488 00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:51.320 little bit of your objectivity and maybe just a scoche of your judgment. So 489 00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.679 and you know, we're military guys. Your sense of humor is sometimes a 490 00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.719 little different. So I'm like, well, what am I gonna do about 491 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:06.159 this skeleton? And I started thinking about the CIA chief back there in Kuwait, 492 00:42:06.440 --> 00:42:10.679 and he was always you know, one of the games was predicting when 493 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:17.320 the war would start, because we'd had George Tennant come out and everybody talking 494 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:21.199 about, you know, what date will the war kickoff? Will it kick 495 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:22.280 off? And he goes, oh, yeah, it's gonna kick off. 496 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:28.920 But you know when and you know, I just kinda again, it's sort 497 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:31.760 of the thing about me in authority. I thought it would be funny. 498 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:38.639 So I took part of this skeleton and put it in my backpack, and 499 00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:45.000 I took it back to station. And of course I always roll in at 500 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.280 night after everybody's gone, because I'm up on the border, you know, 501 00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.199 I do a regular day's work, and then late that afternoon I jump in 502 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:59.079 a car, drive fast as I could up to the border and do this 503 00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:05.559 stuff and get back like one am. So maybe sometimes midnight. Anyway, 504 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.360 I went. I came into the station and went into his office, and 505 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:13.599 I piled the bones up on his off desk, and I left a note 506 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.679 said, hey, you're always trying to read the bones about when the war's 507 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:22.000 gonna start. Maybe this will help you. I thought it was hilarious. 508 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.480 As a military guy, I'm like, it's hilarious. How how did that 509 00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:29.800 go over with the CIA? Yeah? The next day, you know, 510 00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:32.679 I remember, you know, he come on. I'm you know, I 511 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:38.079 typed with two fingers and I'm sitting in my desk waiting for Zzy comes in 512 00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:42.400 the office that day and goes back to his desk. I think this is 513 00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.679 gonna be funny. And then I hear her screaming, Garry Harrington, come 514 00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:52.320 here. You know, it's like and they and I thought, you know, 515 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.960 it should be something to laugh about, but they did not consider it 516 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.119 a laughing matter. And it was where did this come from? And then 517 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:05.679 it was like, well here, because you tell me it's real, and 518 00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:09.440 I'm like, well, yeah, it looks like it's real. And then 519 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.800 it turned into this, you know, and look now I do see a 520 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:21.320 different side of things that I didn't see in those days. In hindsight, 521 00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:25.960 well, in hindsight, that is desecrating, you know, a dead person. 522 00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:32.000 I feel whoever killed him and dumped them there and took away their extremities 523 00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:37.559 might have desecrated them more. But you know, then they were it was 524 00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:40.280 a big deal because then it was like, we're gonna get caught with this 525 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:45.840 in the embassy and it's going to be a big international incident. So then 526 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.239 it was you know, I got yelled at for a while, and then 527 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:57.719 it was you have to get rid of this immediately, and you have to 528 00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:05.159 do it in a respectful way, in accordance with the traditions of this country. 529 00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:12.159 And I said, understood, and gathered the bones wrap the mecca up 530 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:17.239 and I left and then I went to the nearest dumpster and dumped it. 531 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:22.480 I'm gonna wage hazard. A guess that this didn't make it up in the 532 00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.239 cable traffic. That that no, no, no, it did not make 533 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:30.480 it into cable traffic. And then all I said it was like, is 534 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.719 that taking care of? I just said, it's taken care of. Oh 535 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.599 my god, I can imagine the entire office is freaking out. Yeah, 536 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.440 but you know, in the army it would be a whole different thing. 537 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.519 But again, you know, that's one of those lessons you have to learn 538 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:51.360 your environment, and that's a differnt. It's a very different environment. Especially 539 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:58.239 Oh yeah, it's different. Like sitting there in the embassy. Like in 540 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:09.199 Kuwait, Saddam was was launching scuds towards the embassy, and the chiefs of 541 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:16.719 all the different departments had those uh warning devices that would give them a signal 542 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:21.079 when they go off, and then you know, everybody in the embassy would 543 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:22.920 sound the alarm. You had to duck and cover and get under, put 544 00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:30.840 a mask on, gas mask. Everybody practiced that. So here's embassy personnel, 545 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:37.480 State Department personnel, CIA officers that have never done this before, you 546 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.039 know, putting on gas mask, you know, and the times where those 547 00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:49.519 alarms went off, people were really frantic because they weren't military, they hadn't 548 00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:55.599 really trained it, and was always I know, I remember sometimes when it 549 00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.280 went off, having to help people, you know, particularly women that get 550 00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:05.079 the scraps caught in their hair and they're now they're frantic trying to get it 551 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:08.400 in. And it was having a hard time to get people mask because I 552 00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:15.719 really wasn't in a hurry to get mine on. And I'm hoping I didn't 553 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:20.159 tell this last time, but one time, I'd been at the border the 554 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:24.280 night before, so I got in at like one or so in the morning 555 00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:30.400 and came into the office at eight the next morning to start writing up what 556 00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:35.480 happened at the border, and you know, you're smoked. I was tired, 557 00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.719 and about mid day at lunchtime, I thought, I'm going to go 558 00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:45.159 outside and this quate one hundred and twenty five degrees and I'm gonna get in 559 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:50.679 my car in the parking lot and turn it on and turn the air conditioner 560 00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:53.400 on and take a nap. That's what I'm gonna do it for lunch. 561 00:47:53.639 --> 00:48:02.519 And so I was walking to exit the embassy doors and one of those alarms 562 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:07.559 went off. Everybody had been on break because it was launched, and people 563 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:12.679 were outside, and I remember thinking, well, do I duck and cover 564 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:20.559 or if technically, if you're going somewhere and you can get there quickly enough, 565 00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:24.400 you can duck and cover wherever that is. So I think I'll duck 566 00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:30.480 and cover in my car in the air conditioning instead of paying attention to this. 567 00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:36.239 So I get ready to go out the big heavy, you know doors 568 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.239 on the front of an embassy. And as I got to the door to 569 00:48:39.400 --> 00:48:46.119 open it, I looked, and here came everybody from the office with eyes 570 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:51.280 when we say see the whites of their eyes. Eyes were like this, 571 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.519 mouths were open and gone like that, and it was like the running, 572 00:48:55.559 --> 00:49:00.320 and it was like a stampede coming at me, you know, to get 573 00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.679 inside to get in. So all I did was hold the embassy doors open 574 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:10.559 and let them all pass to go in and and duck and cover. And 575 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:15.400 then I went out to my car and got in there and turned on the 576 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:22.119 air condition reclined the seatback and was asleep like this. And after a while 577 00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:28.000 I thought I heard a noise and I opened my eyes and I looked, 578 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:34.639 and all around me were these guys with gas mask on and white white suits. 579 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.679 And it was the marine security people that in the duck and cover. 580 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:49.760 They were doing their swear sweep and found me out in the car. I 581 00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.360 don't you know, we're in the ship right now. Well, they by 582 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:58.519 that time they knew I was former marine. Is like we did people carry 583 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:00.280 their gas mass on them or did they like leave it at their desks and 584 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:05.960 stuff? Left it at their desk If you went out in a car, 585 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:10.400 you were supposed to, you know, take it. But so you had 586 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:17.320 mentioned a bit that you were on one of the ASOT teams and kind of 587 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:22.280 that got parlayed into Yemen, which then got parlayed into Kuwait. I mean, 588 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.159 you talk a little bit about like how that kind of progression took place 589 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.440 because your your career, like even as an operator or Green Beret or marine, 590 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:32.400 it's a little bit unconventional. It's more on the intel side. I 591 00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:36.360 think, I feel like all along, Yeah, well, someday I'm I 592 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.760 want to write a book and it's going to be called against the Grain and 593 00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:47.519 unconventional Man in unconventional War. And I don't know I it kind of goes 594 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:52.559 with my personality. I just I don't know, I don't like to. 595 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:58.599 I kind of follow along, but not all the way. You know, 596 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:07.440 I can't always buy into everything. And so with a soot you know, 597 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:15.519 I talked last time that my former Delta commander had asked me to help take 598 00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:22.000 part in this push towards more UW with maybe a U twist to it. 599 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:27.159 And fifth group had some of the original guys I mentioned before, Steve Potit, 600 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.199 but Mark Vorpaul, David Stevenson. Those were guys that had been you 601 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:39.679 know, kind of pioneers and helping trying to formulate where we would go with 602 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:47.840 that. So you know, I went to a scot and maybe because I 603 00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:53.880 had the TS clearance from having been in Delta and whatever else, I graduated 604 00:51:53.960 --> 00:52:04.360 and again I was pretty lucky in in uh As. I think ASID you 605 00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:10.960 know, trains you to be an effective pilot team member and they back in 606 00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:22.440 my day and it was really emphasized that. So after graduating aside, just 607 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:28.679 a couple of months later, I got contacted by Socks Scent to come down 608 00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:35.159 and talk about, you know, a program. So I wound up going 609 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:44.840 to Yemen to be the first SF person to employ the legally employee some of 610 00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:51.920 the things taught in a side or you know, it was a test case 611 00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:55.599 to see what what can we do? And that was in order to enable 612 00:52:55.679 --> 00:53:04.320 me to make accurate assessments for the security of a O D A. I 613 00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:08.679 think a ST at least in its original stand up, was so that you 614 00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:13.920 know, your small detachments like a like a special forces team in a foreign 615 00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:24.559 country has the ability to establish ways to gather information and make its own assessment 616 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:30.960 and and protect itself, uh from you know, coup, terror attacks or 617 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:37.400 whatever it might be because you don't have that big support force protection mechanism. 618 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:45.320 And so yeah, I was the first guy for the people who don't really 619 00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:47.079 know what we're talking about out there. And I mean to the extent that 620 00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:52.280 you're comfortable talking about about it. I mean, can you describe a little 621 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.360 bit about like what a SOT was if if I understand the history of it 622 00:53:55.440 --> 00:53:59.519 right? I mean before that there was oh and I right, Operations and 623 00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.920 Intelligent. I had been to that, which is more teaches you how to 624 00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:07.599 be a good intel officer on an O day, and they had the rsts 625 00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:16.159 AT group, which was the one RST that did the surveys. But yeah, 626 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:24.000 for so for ASOT, like they really did focus on like the final 627 00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:30.199 exercise is you're you know, you're you play the role of a team that 628 00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:37.800 has been inserted into a country that we used to have relationships with but abandoned. 629 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:42.119 So they'd been in guerrillas. You're supposed to re establish contact with this. 630 00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:54.559 Come on, it's just like so and you know, they're a way 631 00:54:54.760 --> 00:55:00.239 we learned the ways to communicate, let's say sort of the old uh, 632 00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:07.920 you know, sticks and chalk mark things that that people did back in the 633 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:16.559 day and during the Cold War. So communications techniques and I would say, 634 00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:23.679 and maybe some other stuff that you learned how to employ we can say human 635 00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:30.079 and as a broad term, and trade craft like you essential trade craft, 636 00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:36.639 essential trade yeah, right, yeah, And so they deployed you to Yemen 637 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:39.360 as sort of like a test bed to see like can we can we develop 638 00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:44.480 this capability? Yes? And you you know, it's really an honor to 639 00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:51.440 be the first person and an E seven to show up in an embassy and 640 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:59.239 tell the defense attache, the ambassador and the chief of station there that guess 641 00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:04.400 what I'm here to do? Right, And I'm an E seven Army guy, 642 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:09.679 right, and and and they go no, yeah, no, none 643 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:17.039 of you. And uh it took a lot of doing, uh to try 644 00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:22.360 to get permission to get them on board with them, get them on board 645 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:27.320 with that. But you know, but but if I think again before, 646 00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:29.719 well, you know, and I think, you know, we talked last 647 00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:36.960 time about about my assessment in Yemen and predicting that something like what happened with 648 00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:43.480 the coal could happen and going against the status quo and all the other UH 649 00:56:43.800 --> 00:56:51.880 intelligence entities and State Department and analysts there. And so I believe that that 650 00:56:52.079 --> 00:57:00.639 sort of bears out that having that experience that I seasoned military person who's deployed 651 00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:07.519 a lot and seen a lot can bring to bear with the proper clearances, 652 00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:15.119 so you can see the right information and skills to be able to have the 653 00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:20.400 freedom of movement and get out and operate and make your own personal assessment on 654 00:57:20.519 --> 00:57:24.480 the ground. You know, I think it offers a different view. It's 655 00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:29.679 not that you know, where operators an operators view isn't the only view, 656 00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:36.280 but it's an important view. I think in a low intensity conflict, uncertain 657 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:42.920 environment, or hostile environment. To have other than that straight State Department SEI, 658 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:45.400 right, And with things like that, you know, both having a 659 00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:51.880 background in UW and uncomming sure offer and counter terrorism, you know, you 660 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:58.039 have this experience that say an analyst or you know, any any other type 661 00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:01.960 of surveyor wouldn't have in the sense of if I, if we were my 662 00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:07.320 job to attack this thing, like how would I do it? And and 663 00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:10.920 or if it were my ODA coming in would I want to do? And 664 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:16.840 there's I think that people who don't have that experience think that they can imagine 665 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:22.519 those things, but that often they don't necessarily have the on the ground experience 666 00:58:22.559 --> 00:58:29.000 to actually understand how those attacks. And especially when you talk about like the 667 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:32.599 cool or you know, suicide bombings, like you can imagine you can kind 668 00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:37.199 of push it out, how would I how would I attack attached or strategic 669 00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:42.119 target if I weren't afraid of loss of life, if like, if if 670 00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:46.480 I had people just willing to like to to kill themselves or whatever. And 671 00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:53.039 in my career, I think I learned that with the military, we have 672 00:58:53.360 --> 00:59:00.639 a preemptive and solutions based mindset. And there's a problem or here's a potential 673 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:06.440 problem, I'm going to solve it. Here's how I want to do with 674 00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:15.119 a lot of the federal government and including you know, love the FBI of 675 00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:20.800 a lot of people in there, but there there and after the coal it 676 00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:27.280 was a lot of what we here comes from FBI investigation. But those are 677 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:36.119 more police oriented after the fact organizations. They are built that once a crime 678 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:45.639 has occurred, to preserve evidence, investigate and find somebody to prosecute and hold 679 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:50.400 accountable for that. And that's their role and it should be. And as 680 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:54.599 I think as a military person, you come again with that more red cell, 681 00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:00.119 here's how I would do it, so I know better how to prevent 682 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:06.159 it, and and and and I'm going to treat it as an attack. 683 01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:09.519 I'm going to go after a solution, right. And I'm not saying that's 684 01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:15.760 always the right answer, I believe you know. I'm glad we have civilians 685 01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:21.519 in the ultimate places of authority in countries and other places we go because hey, 686 01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:23.519 if it's me, I'm going to give you that military answer right all 687 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:28.880 the time. You know, there's nothing we can't do, not given enough 688 01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:36.440 uh resources and materials and personnel, we can make it, right, right, 689 01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:42.239 yeah, And that's just not feasible, right right, And and so 690 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:46.199 how did you eventually, like, how did you because obviously, especially like 691 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:50.880 the chief of station here, you are somebody with with trade craft and you 692 01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:53.320 want to go out and you know, maybe set up a little little sources 693 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:58.119 or do whatever, but you know, sort of do this advanced force type 694 01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:02.400 of operation. How do you sell the chief of station on this when at 695 01:01:02.480 --> 01:01:08.239 this point in time, obviously the agency in the military didn't necessarily have the 696 01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:15.159 same working relationship that they do today. You know, the first time, 697 01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:17.199 I'll be honest, I got told no. And even though I showed them 698 01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:24.079 the the paperwork and all that said yes, they said no. So I 699 01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:35.079 waited and I refigure, you know, I told the party line, did 700 01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:38.880 stuff made myself valuable? Then I waited a few weeks and I you know, 701 01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:45.079 went back through that rag and highlighted a few key phrases and all, 702 01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:49.280 and came back and said I'd like to readdress this and here's this. And 703 01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:52.559 then then I said, hey, look, I'm not trying to be you. 704 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.880 I'm not you. I don't want to do what you do. I 705 01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:01.320 just had this little thing here and I'm not going to step on any toes. 706 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:07.360 I'll tell you and show you everything I do were they a little more 707 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:14.920 receptive if you did it pitch it as more of like a force protection and 708 01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:19.320 I always from the beginning, you know this is I think things change much 709 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:22.880 later. But it was a forced protection issue because D miners were going to 710 01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:30.039 come in a few months and a D mining contingent and another ODA to do 711 01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:37.599 some train some FID or some training of some Yemeni unit. And it was 712 01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:44.360 for forced protection for that and and and to be honest, the first time, 713 01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:47.159 I'm a new person. They don't know me, and so it's no, 714 01:02:47.559 --> 01:02:52.599 this looks funny and wonky. It's never been done. We're not doing 715 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.880 it right. And that's why you know, you need to be on the 716 01:02:55.920 --> 01:03:00.440 ground a while and let them see who you kitchen and get to know your 717 01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:05.800 some and then you know you need long enough to be able to pull the 718 01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:09.920 wool over their eyes before you can get it past them. Right. But 719 01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:15.559 ultimately that was the mission was successful. Yeah, you know I was allowed 720 01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:23.519 to be on my own more and travel around and do stuff. And yeah 721 01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:30.320 I got corraled once that Hey, you know, what are you doing driving 722 01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:37.320 around yem and yourself and nobody does that, and you know you need to 723 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.440 get in your you know, you need to stay make sure you stay here 724 01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:46.119 in this box. Yeah. But but I was able to, you know, 725 01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:50.760 cut my teeth, get my feet on the ground, and talk to 726 01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:54.760 people, which led to my assessments that predicted, you know, what might 727 01:03:54.800 --> 01:04:01.800 happen regarding the attack on the coal And I remember you telling me that like 728 01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:10.039 that was not well received. Nah. No, the ambassador. In all 729 01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:13.840 my training, nobody told me that if you write anything, the ambassador has 730 01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:18.920 the right to review it, change it, edit it. I mean, 731 01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:24.599 it doesn't matter what it is. They have that right. And I thought 732 01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:32.800 I could by pass ambassadorial comment and review by just sending a a area assessment 733 01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:39.519 back, and that turned out not to be the case. The Ambassador was 734 01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:45.199 angry. She flew down from SNA to Aiden and called all of us in 735 01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:53.599 a room and you know, talked, talked to me specifically about my report. 736 01:04:53.960 --> 01:05:00.199 But she reiterated, you know, some of her contingencies about now we 737 01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:05.800 were just there to do a job and shouldn't have rifles we were, you 738 01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:09.239 know, in her view, it seemed like just as much as a threat 739 01:05:09.320 --> 01:05:14.559 as anybody else in the country because we might do something that might cause a 740 01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.480 problem. Because her her line of diplomatic effort was more of like, I 741 01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:23.559 don't want to say normalizing relations, but building diplomatic relations. Uh, you 742 01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:27.840 know, you know, be honest, My opinion is her line of thought 743 01:05:28.039 --> 01:05:31.719 was, I can't have anything that will in any kind of report that comes 744 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:39.719 out that makes this a dangerous place that causes Hillary Clinton to cancel her planned 745 01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:45.480 trip here. So I mean, to be honest, that's I believe that, 746 01:05:45.559 --> 01:05:48.960 and I don't. I don't think I could be convinced that was any 747 01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:53.760 other reason for that. Yeah, I mean, and I understand I guess 748 01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:57.800 the political implications, but this is also like the makings of the scandal too, 749 01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:00.199 Like if if they do come there and then an attack happens, and 750 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:05.000 then there's a big, thorough review like the nineteen eighty three Bay Route bombing. 751 01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:08.199 I mean, this is a big thing where there were people, you 752 01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:12.159 know, we talked to Mike Taylor about this. I mean that you know, 753 01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:15.519 there were people warning that, you know, something was percolating here, 754 01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:18.360 something bad was going to happen, and then a bunch of people die and 755 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:20.760 after him. Yeah, and after the fact, it's like, oh, 756 01:06:20.840 --> 01:06:25.280 we should have seen this coming. Well, and things on the ground and 757 01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:29.519 Beirut changed over time, and it wasn't the place we first went into, 758 01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:38.239 right, but where what? And and but yet but that that becomes that 759 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:43.760 that yin and yang between the civilian authorities, the ambassador and the military people 760 01:06:43.800 --> 01:06:45.000 on the ground. I don't know if last time I told the story, 761 01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:49.679 but in Beirut, you know, I was covering the beach and it had 762 01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:59.320 my recomplatoon there on the beach outside the airport. It was down on low 763 01:06:59.400 --> 01:07:02.400 ground and there was a big berm and a big highway right beside that. 764 01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:06.519 Well, so to defend against that, because we're down in the low ground, 765 01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:15.360 I built two giant sandbag machine gun placements up parallel to the road. 766 01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:24.679 And at one point we took these big giant shipping crates, plywood shipping crates 767 01:07:25.199 --> 01:07:30.039 that came off a ship and put it up on the machine gun emplacement and 768 01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:34.519 put the sandbags around it. But then I was able to put a roof 769 01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:40.039 on it and put three layers of sandbags on top. Why because I'm protecting 770 01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:45.159 from RPG and grenades, and you know, I'm standing again. I'm a 771 01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:49.800 second lieutenant in the Marine Corps and I'm I'm there. And one day this 772 01:07:54.039 --> 01:07:59.280 probably a suburban or pulls up and some guy in a suit gets out and 773 01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:01.480 he comes over me. He goes, who's in charge here? I am? 774 01:08:01.800 --> 01:08:06.360 And he said, what's that's a machine gun in placement? Yo? 775 01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:13.360 What's that on top of there? I said, that's a roof? He 776 01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:15.560 goes, is that wood in there? I go it is? He said, 777 01:08:15.600 --> 01:08:18.399 well, that looks like you're planning to make a permanent It makes us 778 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:27.119 look like we're establishing a permanent presence here, and I might know it's to 779 01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:30.520 protect against this. He goes and he said, well, I want you 780 01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:32.359 to take it down. I said, who are you? He said, 781 01:08:32.920 --> 01:08:38.720 I'm ambassador to Crockett And I said, yeah, well I'm Lieutenant Harrington, 782 01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:42.840 I said, And he goes, why you take that down now? I 783 01:08:42.920 --> 01:08:45.800 go, know that protects the Marines. He said, I'm ordering you to 784 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:48.000 take it down now. I said, why don't you go on from here? 785 01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:56.159 And when a competent authority in a marine corps tells me to take it 786 01:08:56.199 --> 01:09:01.199 down, and I'll take it down. But you don't know, I know, 787 01:09:02.119 --> 01:09:05.640 ambassadors have the ultimate authority. Yeah yeah, I thought, yeah, 788 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:10.920 I'm being just like yawning that yahoo. Yeah, I'm doing the right thing. 789 01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:14.560 Yeah, when he leaves in about twenty minutes later, I get a 790 01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:20.159 call in the radio from the Marine commander who's really upset and who informs me 791 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:24.640 that, hey, you know you need to take that down. But that, 792 01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:30.680 for me was that whole thing of here, we are now putting personal 793 01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:36.439 safety at risk for political messaging, and it's not even messaging. No one 794 01:09:36.520 --> 01:09:42.319 in Beyirut believes that your little bunker's thing for your machine gun is a permanent, 795 01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:48.880 persistent presence of marines. You're not building a headquarters bunker. What's not 796 01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:54.119 a pill box carved into the mountain side. Yeah. I would like to 797 01:09:54.159 --> 01:09:59.039 say that stuff can't happen in the military, but there have been a special 798 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:02.279 Forces aren't made or two who have wanted guys to go out and paint rocks. 799 01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:08.520 Yeah, yeah, to beautify they Oh yeah, yeah, we know 800 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:14.439 so and so while I might be hard on, you know, that ambassador 801 01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:18.760 for that thing at that time, and I'm pretty hard against uh about Ambassador 802 01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:26.199 BNS Bodine's choices. Yeah, maybe there's a few military people that have done 803 01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:30.600 the same. Oh yeah, I think area beautification is specifically a military term. 804 01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.079 Yeah, they don't, they don't have Foreign Service officers out painting rocks. 805 01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:39.439 Yeah, that doesn't happen. Yeah, So what what year was it 806 01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:44.880 when you wrote this report that you know that the ambassador didn't. That was 807 01:10:44.960 --> 01:10:47.399 nineteen nineteen nine. I went there. I went to Yemen in ninety eight 808 01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:53.680 and stayed over into ninety nine. That was pretty prophetic. Yeah, absolutely, 809 01:10:53.760 --> 01:11:00.520 I mean, and remember in January two thousand was the attempt by the 810 01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:04.800 same guys on the USS, the Sullivans, and it didn't you know, 811 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:12.920 it didn't work out for them, and you know, so then they retried 812 01:11:13.239 --> 01:11:16.479 and regrouped and retried in October. And the fact that they could that they 813 01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:21.159 could try it once and not be successful and then do it and then that 814 01:11:21.319 --> 01:11:28.720 that doesn't level, that doesn't raise like the threat level and everybody's defensive posture. 815 01:11:28.840 --> 01:11:31.680 And maybe it did and it just didn't work. But the fact that 816 01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:35.119 then they could turn around and do it on the coal you know, after 817 01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:41.359 their tests run. Yeah. No, I understand that push pull between diplomacy 818 01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:44.159 and military security, but I mean, come on, at a certain point, 819 01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:46.039 it's like, no, it's not well. I think I told you 820 01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:54.000 before that that the Islamic Army of Aiden I showed up. I'm told the 821 01:11:54.039 --> 01:11:58.600 accepted story was it's three guys and a fax machine that just make threats against 822 01:11:58.600 --> 01:12:01.880 Western and Western and there are very few Westerners there at that time. So 823 01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:06.079 then you know, things go on, there's a few car bombings, they 824 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:11.760 get more active. I talked last time about the arrest of the Aiden's six 825 01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:16.079 while we were in Aiden, you know, and you know their direct tie 826 01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:23.720 to potentially trying to to hit us and where we were staying. And then 827 01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:30.159 the hostage standoff, you know, in a fight and some hostages were killed. 828 01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:35.920 So to me, all the analysts and the intelligence agencies failed to take 829 01:12:35.960 --> 01:12:42.520 into account this escalation and again that whole thing of where we're military people. 830 01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:47.800 So you know, again I have people. I have people that are dedicated, 831 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:53.439 that have proven that they have access to weapons, have proven they will 832 01:12:53.439 --> 01:13:01.000 take violent action against Westerners and have a stated interest. And yes, I 833 01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:13.800 did see the segent that you know, so I understood that why people said 834 01:13:13.840 --> 01:13:23.520 it wasn't an al Qaeda place and there's never been any operations there and there 835 01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:30.680 were no direct operational ties to al Qaeda at that time. Okay, I 836 01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:36.199 get that, but I still have a bunch of inept guys that will do 837 01:13:36.239 --> 01:13:42.119 whatever they're right told, they're getting better and yeah, and so again, 838 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:48.479 my my ultimate assessment with military experience was, Okay, what if they ever 839 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:56.399 accept operational control from delta, I mean from from the from al Qaeda, 840 01:13:56.479 --> 01:14:03.680 and al Qaeda provides training and operational develops the operations, or they host a 841 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:09.920 cell right from al Qaeda. Well, and guess what the whole thing was 842 01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:14.000 a cell that was hosted. Yeah, and a lot of those, a 843 01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:17.680 lot of those what we would call like minor league or you know, third 844 01:14:17.720 --> 01:14:24.079 tier whatever like organizations out there in Africa and you know in in the Middle 845 01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:30.159 East who I mean in the Philippine wherever, who we would say, well, 846 01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:32.560 they're not a Q, it's like, but but they want to be. 847 01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:36.960 And so they're trying to make their mark so that a Q will like 848 01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:42.159 send them funding and send like they're trying to like step on the stage. 849 01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:45.479 So they're willing to go a little bit further. That's what happened with isis 850 01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:49.399 isis quote unquote in air quotes isis in the Philippines. I mean they're really 851 01:14:49.439 --> 01:14:53.640 just bandits, but they're trying to get the attention. Same thing and the 852 01:14:53.960 --> 01:14:58.000 again quote unquote isis groups in Africa. They're trying to get the attention of 853 01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:00.479 the bigger players. Get the money at the recognition, get the funding, 854 01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:04.079 get the training, the exposure. So the way they do that is they 855 01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:10.319 go out and they try to make these big things happen so that the parent 856 01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:13.600 organ you know, they're the organization, will look back and go, hey, 857 01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:16.079 yeah, we'll pick you guys up too well. And even on a 858 01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:24.800 smaller scale like go to go to Syria. Right when you first had the 859 01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:31.479 trained terrorists coming in from Afghanistan, the Khakistan uh To into Syria, the 860 01:15:31.520 --> 01:15:36.479 people they hooked up with became successful in the battlefield. Right. So now 861 01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:42.920 here's this guy. Now, the local that has brought in, you know, 862 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:46.720 a host of a cell is becoming successful. He's becoming bigger and more 863 01:15:46.720 --> 01:15:54.840 popular and more powerful. So now his competitor fifty miles away, hey I 864 01:15:54.960 --> 01:16:00.079 need one of those night and and and so now you get this and people 865 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:06.079 are welcoming these franchises, yeah, because it grows their power. It's really 866 01:16:06.159 --> 01:16:13.199 that much different than us going into Afghanistan with suitcases of money and right, 867 01:16:13.279 --> 01:16:16.199 and more lords today on our side. Right. So, speaking of which 868 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:19.279 I mean well, jump a little forward ahead. I mean, we talked 869 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:26.840 about Yemen, we talked about Kuwait the last time we spoke the previous episode, 870 01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:31.319 we talked a lot about going in Afghanistan and Tora Bora, some really 871 01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:36.680 incredible stories there. But I want to jump a little bit further forward into 872 01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:43.680 the Cowst bombing and sort of your your awareness of that. I think we've 873 01:16:43.680 --> 01:16:45.800 had a number of guests on the show who have talked about the Cowst bombing. 874 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:49.680 CIA personnel. Do you want to talk about it from from your point 875 01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:57.520 of view and what happened in the aftermath. Sure. So this is one 876 01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:00.920 of those incidents, right that it's a very siminal incident, and it's very 877 01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:04.880 emotional to a lot of people. So you know, I want to capiat 878 01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:14.960 to anybody out there that this is my personal view, all right. You 879 01:17:14.960 --> 01:17:23.600 know, we had FBI has or in law enforcement. There's this saying the 880 01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:29.279 lust for the bust. So it's sometimes you get ahead of your skis lean 881 01:17:29.359 --> 01:17:35.600 too far far forward because you want to make that bust. So here al 882 01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:46.119 Qaeda played the agency masterfully, right, Yeah, they dangled this guy, 883 01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:59.039 they let photos leak of him with very senior Al Qaeda people you know, 884 01:17:59.199 --> 01:18:01.439 so the whole thing with you when you have an asset, you know, 885 01:18:01.720 --> 01:18:04.279 who is this guy? What does he claimed to be? Can we verify 886 01:18:04.319 --> 01:18:09.880 that? Okay, he's who he says to be. What is his access? 887 01:18:10.439 --> 01:18:14.359 Okay, how we verify that access? So who? What is everybody 888 01:18:14.359 --> 01:18:19.000 looking for? Access to the top tier? So oh wait a second. 889 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:25.760 If we have what we think of his proof that this guy has access to 890 01:18:25.840 --> 01:18:31.840 the top tier, now, then you know that desire to do something becomes 891 01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:42.119 very strong, and you know there are a lot of patriotic reasons that we 892 01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:45.359 all want to do that too, right, But then in any bureaucracy, 893 01:18:45.399 --> 01:19:00.159 I think there's also some career minded people that like to latch onto things that 894 01:19:00.159 --> 01:19:04.239 that have a big result because of what it does for their their their careers. 895 01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:14.239 And I'm not pointing to any person in specific on this, but because 896 01:19:14.319 --> 01:19:21.119 of the desire to get a big hit against a big person, the standard 897 01:19:21.159 --> 01:19:26.000 precautions, a lot of those were thrown to the wind. I'm sure your 898 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:31.640 other guests have talked about just the tactical part, not not searching the guy 899 01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:39.520 before he came in. That can't be you know, I've I've brought assets 900 01:19:40.680 --> 01:19:46.239 and some of them were bad guys onto A, you know, the Ariana 901 01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:58.199 hotel compound, but not until I or the GRS guys the with me searched 902 01:19:58.239 --> 01:20:03.199 them to make sure they did not have anything on them before I would ever 903 01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:11.000 bring them somewhere where I would risk other people to them. And in this 904 01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:17.840 case, right, you have this guy that gave a reason he did not 905 01:20:17.920 --> 01:20:30.399 want to be searched, so they call was made not to search him, 906 01:20:30.439 --> 01:20:35.359 and of course, you know he that enabled him to detonate himself. And 907 01:20:35.399 --> 01:20:45.199 then what compounded that was because you know, I worked on another top five 908 01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:59.239 al Qaeda targeting event and I saw how that that draws people. And if 909 01:20:59.279 --> 01:21:06.079 it's a top ten person or you get some help from headquarters and you sometimes 910 01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:13.119 help you don't ask for, and help that you can't refuse, and a 911 01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:17.279 lot of them and everybody's coming in and giving their expertise and chipping in and 912 01:21:17.720 --> 01:21:21.439 a lot of that stuff is helpful, right, a lot of it is, 913 01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:28.119 but there's just a lot of it. So the day that he came, 914 01:21:29.079 --> 01:21:31.079 there are a lot of people that you know, finally, finally we 915 01:21:31.159 --> 01:21:38.039 have someone. So it's just sucked in, which would never happened. No, 916 01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:43.119 No, and why is that? I mean that kind of goes to 917 01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:48.119 the bigger question. One of the things I loved about Special Forces and particularly 918 01:21:48.119 --> 01:21:58.239 Delta was that it was an NCO driven operation and that you know, if 919 01:21:58.279 --> 01:22:01.600 you were if you as an we're in charge of this part of a takedown 920 01:22:01.640 --> 01:22:06.760 wherever it was left to you, well, you know, they don't have 921 01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:16.279 that same mentality or ethos in somewhere like the CIA, so you know, 922 01:22:16.439 --> 01:22:19.880 and and like taking if you're in a regular infantry unit in the military and 923 01:22:19.920 --> 01:22:23.920 you get this sort of big thing, Okay, the senior officers are gonna 924 01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:30.199 come in, right, yeah, the general going and uh so, yeah, 925 01:22:30.279 --> 01:22:34.279 I think you know it. It drew people in and it was this 926 01:22:34.439 --> 01:22:43.680 big deal. And then when you I think maybe some people excused or you 927 01:22:43.720 --> 01:22:47.800 know, you you rationalize in your own brain why we're not doing this that 928 01:22:47.840 --> 01:22:53.359 we would normally do because well, so and so is senior and they're here 929 01:22:53.399 --> 01:22:59.560 and they're buying off on this, So okay, I buy off on it. 930 01:22:59.640 --> 01:23:06.720 And you know that that happened, you know, so it was you 931 01:23:06.720 --> 01:23:14.000 know, it was Yeah, it was a shock throughout and then that I 932 01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:18.319 think that's the first time it really hit the agency hard because we've lost people, 933 01:23:18.600 --> 01:23:24.079 of course in different assaults and different attacks, and going back to Beirut 934 01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:28.680 and throughout the history, you know, we have the wall where people in 935 01:23:28.720 --> 01:23:31.880 the agency, you know, have have given their lives. But here it 936 01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:39.399 was like in the War on Terrace since nine to eleven, here's a time 937 01:23:39.439 --> 01:23:45.880 where they actually targeted and attacked us in a larger scale and it was successful. 938 01:23:48.119 --> 01:23:55.079 So there was a lot of anger and and and angst about that. 939 01:23:55.680 --> 01:24:05.600 You know, the agency was able to through different through multiple sources of intelligence 940 01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:15.680 to figure out after the fact where that attack came from or where the guy 941 01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:25.039 that in charge that was in Pakistan, and you know, it took a 942 01:24:25.079 --> 01:24:30.560 while because you have to verify and just that whole process to verify I was 943 01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:38.239 involved in trying to verify that it was. It was a rough time because 944 01:24:38.720 --> 01:24:42.800 every single day I was getting pink from head quarters. You know, have 945 01:24:42.880 --> 01:24:50.720 you verified? You know, you know, because people really really wanted to 946 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:59.000 do something in response to that attack. But yes, eventually the agency was 947 01:24:59.119 --> 01:25:04.840 able, that's out in the press, to go after and get Hussain or 948 01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:12.840 who's saying al Yamini, who was the person responsible for the who did they 949 01:25:12.880 --> 01:25:15.960 tag him in a drune strike. Is that how that? Yeah, it 950 01:25:15.000 --> 01:25:26.560 tagged him in a compound in in Pakistan, and you know it was a 951 01:25:26.600 --> 01:25:33.359 compound that was attached to you know, a housing unit, so you know 952 01:25:33.399 --> 01:25:41.119 it was but then over time, you know, they saw what we're al 953 01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:48.800 Qaeda coming in and out of that house. So eventually the strike was taken. 954 01:25:49.159 --> 01:25:54.000 Uh. You know, at first, there were quite a number of 955 01:25:54.079 --> 01:25:58.720 people in that building, and we think about the bombs and how efficient they 956 01:25:58.760 --> 01:26:06.800 are. I think there there were a number of missiles fired into that building, 957 01:26:08.000 --> 01:26:13.560 and yeah, it's a mud you know, the buildings that we've all 958 01:26:13.600 --> 01:26:19.359 seen in Pakistan and and Afghanis and Afghanistan. So it destroyed a lot of 959 01:26:19.399 --> 01:26:24.239 the building. But let's see, I think there were like nineteen people in 960 01:26:24.279 --> 01:26:30.840 that building. As they got ready to shoot, two walked out like five 961 01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:35.239 seconds before. And then you know, if you think everybody's done for but 962 01:26:35.439 --> 01:26:41.399 a lot of people were just shaken and rubble and got up and walked away. 963 01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:46.760 But the focus of the attack was on the It was during cold weather, 964 01:26:47.479 --> 01:26:53.880 so on the central room, and you know, the the people in 965 01:26:53.920 --> 01:27:00.800 that room were you know, perished. So and then they al Qaeda comes 966 01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:06.800 and all came out with that guy getting getting killed. So so the CIA 967 01:27:08.000 --> 01:27:18.439 did get some measure of revenge for on the people that helped initiate the attack 968 01:27:18.920 --> 01:27:24.159 on coast. You know. On that note too, I mean, since 969 01:27:24.319 --> 01:27:27.720 since we have you here, I can't help but ask if you had any 970 01:27:27.920 --> 01:27:30.640 situational awareness on all the stuff that went down with the bin laden targeting. 971 01:27:32.439 --> 01:27:43.039 Uh I did not. You know, the we all at some point and 972 01:27:43.119 --> 01:27:51.119 when I was chasing after some top tier al Qaeda personnel, of course bin 973 01:27:51.199 --> 01:28:00.920 Ladden was always a discussion, and I spoke with some analysts from that team 974 01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:04.439 flew out and talk to me about what I was doing. So we talked 975 01:28:04.439 --> 01:28:09.640 about that. But I don't know that. I do know, like there 976 01:28:09.760 --> 01:28:15.520 is a guy, a former u SF an Orange guy that was one of 977 01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:23.159 the key people that for many many months helped put together that target package. 978 01:28:23.560 --> 01:28:27.279 And this is a guy and a al out there. I'm not gonna say 979 01:28:27.279 --> 01:28:30.880 your last name, but you know, this is that guy. That's that 980 01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:38.560 guy, does he al is? You know, he's a he's a really 981 01:28:38.640 --> 01:28:45.560 really nice guy, and you know that. You know, I just wish 982 01:28:45.680 --> 01:28:54.960 that people could know that here's this guy who's never gotten any credit or acknowledgement 983 01:28:55.600 --> 01:29:00.359 for you know, all that work that he did, and yet you know 984 01:29:00.479 --> 01:29:03.760 he's that guy. You know, I talked about being the guy with the 985 01:29:03.840 --> 01:29:08.840 experience to be in the right place at the right time, to be able 986 01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:14.439 to make calls like on the coal and stuff. Well, here's the guy 987 01:29:14.479 --> 01:29:21.039 that had all that experience and knowledge that was able to be in that role 988 01:29:21.279 --> 01:29:27.840 to help put together that which I think, you know, helped lead to 989 01:29:27.960 --> 01:29:33.680 that successful take out of Ben Ladden, right, And uh, I just 990 01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:38.680 wish that that guy was the kind of guy you guys could have. Yeah, 991 01:29:38.680 --> 01:29:41.520 I know we would. I mean, it's it's interesting. We've also 992 01:29:41.560 --> 01:29:45.399 talked on the show about the the guy who was the first one to that 993 01:29:45.479 --> 01:29:48.880 shot Ben Ladden, who has never gone public, never said anything about what 994 01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:54.159 he did, and the dev Group operator, and it's just it's it's interesting 995 01:29:54.199 --> 01:29:57.880 and uh to hear that there are these guys out there that like, did 996 01:29:57.920 --> 01:30:01.800 my job and that's enough walk away from it. And I mean, I 997 01:30:01.800 --> 01:30:06.239 hope they're sitting on the beach drinking my ties somewhere enjoying life. Yeah, 998 01:30:06.319 --> 01:30:12.880 yeah, that's true. But with that said, al and Red, I 999 01:30:12.920 --> 01:30:17.600 guess, yeah, if you ever want to go to the show. Could 1000 01:30:17.640 --> 01:30:20.520 you talk then a little bit about like the secrecy around it, like when 1001 01:30:20.560 --> 01:30:23.880 it when it when it went down, I mean, did you know it 1002 01:30:23.960 --> 01:30:28.640 was coming or was it like so compartmentalized you were just like what no? 1003 01:30:29.239 --> 01:30:35.640 After after the fact, Yeah, right, Uh, sure everybody was really 1004 01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:40.239 happy, everybody on the inside, you know, I'd say, I'm sure 1005 01:30:40.279 --> 01:30:44.520 all the intelligence and law enforce maidencies, you know, you get you before 1006 01:30:44.960 --> 01:30:50.279 the headlines hit, you get that first reverberation through, and and there was 1007 01:30:50.439 --> 01:31:00.680 a lot of happiness, excitement. I wasn't smart enough as some people were 1008 01:31:00.720 --> 01:31:04.239 to save and use papers with with the h excuse me, the headlines and 1009 01:31:04.279 --> 01:31:13.119 stuff and so yeah, but but the other details and and that's one of 1010 01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:16.239 those things where I didn't I'm not one of those people that I wanted to 1011 01:31:16.279 --> 01:31:20.359 try to dig and call the people I knew and try to get him and 1012 01:31:20.439 --> 01:31:25.079 talk about it, because it's like, hey, I have somebody else's gig 1013 01:31:25.159 --> 01:31:29.680 and they did it. And and it also sometimes it makes people uncomfortable, 1014 01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:32.159 right, like to you know, when when you're friends with somebody, you 1015 01:31:32.279 --> 01:31:36.439 try to pry that you know that's you know, secret stuff out them or 1016 01:31:36.479 --> 01:31:41.279 whatever. They're like, you know, it's it's almost like you're leveraging your 1017 01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:46.560 friendship right in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you know, 1018 01:31:47.239 --> 01:31:53.159 and and you know, and I was busy doing other things too, So 1019 01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:58.439 yeah, it was a great day. And part of it, part it 1020 01:31:58.720 --> 01:32:03.640 let's let's be honest. And in some ways it's like this, we're in 1021 01:32:03.760 --> 01:32:11.520 for a change now that parts ye over and and and and it does change. 1022 01:32:11.560 --> 01:32:17.680 Certainly the war on Terror didn't end with him, but it turned a 1023 01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:25.399 page I think in the hearts and minds of the American people. And maybe 1024 01:32:25.439 --> 01:32:30.479 it's important right that we need to you know, we're on our end in 1025 01:32:30.520 --> 01:32:35.920 the military and intelligence agencies. We're out there pursuing those goals and those objectives 1026 01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:42.159 to lead that way. But then there comes that time when it's time to 1027 01:32:42.159 --> 01:32:45.239 turn the page on that, right, And you know, if you give 1028 01:32:45.359 --> 01:32:49.680 us like right right with MacArthur ever stopped in Korea, right, we're out 1029 01:32:49.680 --> 01:32:55.399 calling in China. But but we need those people to say no, it's 1030 01:32:55.520 --> 01:33:00.880 time to turn the page on that. And I think that's I think it's 1031 01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:05.760 so doing this. This podcast has been like so cool because getting to talk 1032 01:33:05.760 --> 01:33:10.760 to people like you who are there early on and Mark Paulmeropolis gave us that 1033 01:33:10.800 --> 01:33:15.279 print that's behind you about the invasion We've had justin sapp and j R. 1034 01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:19.479 Seeger on the show those like initial teams that went in Afghanistan and we're kind 1035 01:33:19.479 --> 01:33:24.600 of all you guys were there for American like a very dark time. Whether 1036 01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:28.439 there's this period of time like are we just helpless? Yeah? And I 1037 01:33:28.479 --> 01:33:30.840 feel like you kind of showed that like no, we're We're not. We're 1038 01:33:30.880 --> 01:33:34.399 definitely not helpless, like there is a way to fight back. And then 1039 01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:39.600 the chapter on that part of American history closed with the Bill Laden Rate. 1040 01:33:39.840 --> 01:33:44.800 I would say, I think it did did the two again to a large 1041 01:33:45.680 --> 01:33:51.199 and and that whole part of answering are we helpless? Right? And and 1042 01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:57.520 you know, and I go back, what what whatever people think about George 1043 01:33:57.520 --> 01:34:03.119 Bush. You know, we will get to and you know a lot of 1044 01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:08.399 us believe that, and we would never stop. It's true that sometimes our 1045 01:34:08.439 --> 01:34:15.760 government says no stop, but but there are Americans that will give the best 1046 01:34:15.920 --> 01:34:21.880 years of their lives to pursue these goals and the efforts right right well, 1047 01:34:21.920 --> 01:34:27.680 and you know, you it's interesting to me when people talk about Afghanistan, 1048 01:34:27.720 --> 01:34:30.279 how we lost in Afghanistan, because if you were just to take what our 1049 01:34:30.279 --> 01:34:35.000 initial goal was in Afghanistan, which was to eliminate al Qaeda, like we 1050 01:34:35.119 --> 01:34:42.279 did that fast. Like we achieved that goal in Afghanistan very quickly, and 1051 01:34:42.319 --> 01:34:46.319 then it became sort of this you know, sort of nebulous, ambiguous sort 1052 01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:53.760 of war against the Taliban and other elements. But when it comes to what 1053 01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:57.960 we set out to do initially there, we did it very quickly, you 1054 01:34:58.000 --> 01:35:02.720 know. So it's uh, yeah, it's you know, you talk about 1055 01:35:02.760 --> 01:35:08.279 bush and like when we went into Afghanistan to elemit al Qaireda, you know, 1056 01:35:08.600 --> 01:35:11.159 like talk about justin sapp and you know, the guys we've had on 1057 01:35:11.399 --> 01:35:15.840 like you know, like Jared' cigarette, like they rolled through that country quickly. 1058 01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:25.600 It was so I was on four of those teams and with and last 1059 01:35:25.600 --> 01:35:28.760 time we talked about it, I stood in Tora Bora on top of the 1060 01:35:28.800 --> 01:35:32.359 mountain with in my op and I was telling those guys, yeah, you 1061 01:35:32.359 --> 01:35:35.079 know, this is easy. Now. It's like playing King of the hill. 1062 01:35:35.680 --> 01:35:40.840 We've got the aircraft, we're knocking them off the hill. But to 1063 01:35:40.960 --> 01:35:44.479 stay here, right And at the time, I said, ten years from 1064 01:35:44.479 --> 01:35:46.239 now, we'll still be here, and it's not going to be this easy. 1065 01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:53.159 I didn't realize it'd be twenty right, right, right, But and 1066 01:35:53.560 --> 01:35:57.000 you know that's just the way it goes. Yeah, you know, we 1067 01:35:56.720 --> 01:36:01.800 we we're talking about some serious things here. And I mentioned before to you 1068 01:36:01.920 --> 01:36:10.600 that I would tell you some funny stories about frank Tony. Frank Tony, 1069 01:36:11.600 --> 01:36:16.880 so General frank TONI. When I met General frank TONI was when this coincides 1070 01:36:16.920 --> 01:36:23.000 with that whole ASOT thing we talked about. So he was the commander of 1071 01:36:23.000 --> 01:36:31.960 SOXEM and I go down and and meet frank Tony, and frank TONI is 1072 01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:40.520 known he was a hardcore, uh military guy, you know, more rangerish 1073 01:36:40.640 --> 01:36:43.600 than special forces. Yeah, you know, I'd say I was gonna see 1074 01:36:43.680 --> 01:36:46.720 like a marine in an army Union. Yeah. And the famous quote for 1075 01:36:46.760 --> 01:36:51.159 frank TONI was I don't need to speak no foreign language. I speak five 1076 01:36:51.319 --> 01:36:55.880 five six, Right. He's like, yeah, I don't need no blankety 1077 01:36:56.039 --> 01:37:00.960 blank foreign language. You just shoot people and that's all the count So, 1078 01:37:00.239 --> 01:37:06.199 I mean that's the way he was. And he would he liked things more 1079 01:37:06.199 --> 01:37:13.920 of the way a rangers liked things. So you know he's you know, 1080 01:37:14.119 --> 01:37:17.399 I go off and I go to Yemen to be this guy. Well, 1081 01:37:17.439 --> 01:37:21.520 I'm in Yemen, so I'm wearing civilian clothes. My hair grows out. 1082 01:37:23.199 --> 01:37:27.800 You can't hardly ever get to find a barber anyway, So who cares, 1083 01:37:30.479 --> 01:37:35.119 you know, I'm and I'm working the position they gave me in the embassy, 1084 01:37:35.359 --> 01:37:43.800 was working in the Defensivettache's office as the operational NCO because they they didn't 1085 01:37:43.800 --> 01:37:47.279 have one. So it's just like two guys and a warrant officer, a 1086 01:37:47.319 --> 01:37:55.000 colonel and me. And yeah, I'm in civilian clothes. I'm trying to 1087 01:37:55.039 --> 01:38:00.399 fill that job while I'm trying to learn about Yemen and and make my assessment 1088 01:38:00.880 --> 01:38:09.119 about the security situation there. And General frank Toni's coming out for a visit. 1089 01:38:10.359 --> 01:38:13.680 So the embassy, you know it, gets it, gets all ready 1090 01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:19.439 for this visit, and a defense attache and the major and I because I'm 1091 01:38:19.479 --> 01:38:25.039 the NCO. So I'm going to carry suitcases and stuff go out to meet 1092 01:38:25.359 --> 01:38:29.159 the General coming in on his little airplane. And I'm like, whoo, 1093 01:38:29.680 --> 01:38:32.600 you know, I know the stories about frank Tony. I really need to 1094 01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:38.079 get a haircut and shave my mustache, but I was too busy. I 1095 01:38:38.079 --> 01:38:44.399 didn't have time, so you know, I'm i'm I'm I'm not looking like 1096 01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:49.079 a soldier would look. And he lands, and now I'm nervous because he's 1097 01:38:49.199 --> 01:38:57.039 known to be pretty mercurial in his temperate as well, and I'm just trying 1098 01:38:57.079 --> 01:39:01.319 to stay out of his vision and line might and not talk to him. 1099 01:39:01.399 --> 01:39:06.359 And they he comes, he gets off the plane, they greet him, 1100 01:39:06.640 --> 01:39:12.159 They come over with with that, with his bags, and they're sitting there 1101 01:39:12.159 --> 01:39:17.319 on beside the tarmac and then the major from the Defensive tache's office says, 1102 01:39:17.800 --> 01:39:23.760 Sarin Harrington, take his passport over and get expedited and get get that through. 1103 01:39:24.319 --> 01:39:30.760 And I start to go, and he goes, did you call him 1104 01:39:30.760 --> 01:39:41.079 sergeant? And this major, who didn't like the fact that I was Special 1105 01:39:41.119 --> 01:39:45.199 Forces and didn't like the fact that I claimed to be allowed to do some 1106 01:39:45.239 --> 01:39:50.920 of the things that I said I was going to do because of a side, 1107 01:39:53.079 --> 01:39:57.279 took that opportunity to say, hell, General, he's one of your 1108 01:39:57.319 --> 01:40:02.399 special forces boys. And Frank Tony looked at me. He just went like 1109 01:40:02.600 --> 01:40:12.760 he went, I just started staring and looking and uh, and he goes, 1110 01:40:13.359 --> 01:40:16.039 you are special Forces. I say, I'll get your passport and I 1111 01:40:16.119 --> 01:40:20.239 took off to go expedite his passport, and I think for the next couple 1112 01:40:20.239 --> 01:40:24.359 of days and I just tried to like, he just would stare at me, 1113 01:40:24.680 --> 01:40:26.960 and I just tried to stay. The next time you saw him, 1114 01:40:26.960 --> 01:40:30.600 did you have a hind tight na? I couldn't get it right, But 1115 01:40:31.520 --> 01:40:41.920 then you know, if some things happened. The embassy didn't really want to 1116 01:40:43.159 --> 01:40:45.720 deal with him, so they kind of like and it was a holiday coming 1117 01:40:45.800 --> 01:40:48.840 up, so they were all like planning on taking off and he's there. 1118 01:40:48.960 --> 01:40:53.560 He's like, I'm gonna be taking around and showing around, and every right 1119 01:40:53.640 --> 01:40:57.720 turned to me and goes, he's kind of your responsibility, and we okay. 1120 01:40:57.800 --> 01:41:03.640 So I became his driver and try to take him around, and I 1121 01:41:03.680 --> 01:41:10.199 think one of the first times he really did not like me. And I 1122 01:41:10.199 --> 01:41:16.000 think the first time we started breaking ice was there was a Special Forces detachment 1123 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:23.560 that was training a Yemeni unit down on the Red Sea on the coast, 1124 01:41:24.359 --> 01:41:30.560 and he was going to take a helicopter down to visit them. So I 1125 01:41:30.640 --> 01:41:35.880 drove him out to this base and we're there and it was just chaos. 1126 01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:44.239 The Yemeni military was It was just a group of dudes. And eventually a 1127 01:41:44.359 --> 01:41:51.520 hip started coming in and there was like nobody knew, there was no guidance, 1128 01:41:51.560 --> 01:41:55.880 no anything. So hey, I do what a Special Forces guy would 1129 01:41:55.920 --> 01:42:00.399 do. I get out there, I start providing guidance to the helicopter and 1130 01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:04.600 trying to get it to land, and of course it's it's not, but 1131 01:42:04.680 --> 01:42:15.119 it eventually lands, and so we're gonna get myself, General Tony and a 1132 01:42:15.199 --> 01:42:19.760 few Yemeni officers are going to get on this aircraft and fly down to the 1133 01:42:19.800 --> 01:42:30.640 coast. And so they get on. One of the Yemeni generals has his 1134 01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:35.319 kid with him and he's smoking a cigarette, and you know, they all 1135 01:42:35.359 --> 01:42:42.039 just get on this aircraft and there you could see from inside the door there 1136 01:42:42.159 --> 01:42:46.720 was a big, like fifty five gallon drum painted red head JP fuel in 1137 01:42:46.840 --> 01:42:51.000 it, and the guy's leaning on it like this, smoking a cigarette and 1138 01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:56.760 his kids in there. And then they decide that we need to send some 1139 01:42:56.880 --> 01:43:00.960 security guys. So I don't know what they say to everybody, but then 1140 01:43:00.000 --> 01:43:02.800 next thing, you know, everybody wants to be the person to do that. 1141 01:43:02.920 --> 01:43:09.800 So they all rushed the helicopter. I mean like eighty people rushed the 1142 01:43:09.800 --> 01:43:17.239 helicopter. And yeah, the n CEO and you comes out. So I'm 1143 01:43:17.279 --> 01:43:21.479 like, you know, blank this. So I waded into the people and 1144 01:43:21.520 --> 01:43:26.439 I start Yemenis are not real big, right, and so I start grabbing 1145 01:43:26.479 --> 01:43:30.319 people and throwing them to the side. And I get my way to the 1146 01:43:30.359 --> 01:43:33.880 door and I'm grabbing guys and just pull them and throwing them out. And 1147 01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:41.399 I climb up on the aircraft and I look and everybody looks at me like 1148 01:43:41.479 --> 01:43:46.520 that, and so I'll start walking down And the first thing was that Yemeny 1149 01:43:46.640 --> 01:43:53.199 general leaning over the fuel with his cigarette. I went up to him and 1150 01:43:53.319 --> 01:43:59.239 smacked his hand and face with the cigarette and to knock it out of his 1151 01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:02.439 hand, and I, you know, stumped out the cigarette and went like 1152 01:44:02.520 --> 01:44:06.039 that. And I walked down the line, and you know, there were 1153 01:44:06.399 --> 01:44:11.199 guys that had their rifles facing up, and so I grabbed their rifles and 1154 01:44:11.239 --> 01:44:15.720 turned them down and h walked back in. General Tony was sitting at the 1155 01:44:15.720 --> 01:44:17.439 back and when I got back there, he just looked at me kind of 1156 01:44:17.520 --> 01:44:25.800 laughed like, yeah, that's my guy. And we got on this aircraft 1157 01:44:25.840 --> 01:44:30.600 and I don't know how we ever made it to where we were going and 1158 01:44:30.720 --> 01:44:35.760 coming back. But then while we were there at this unit. I didn't 1159 01:44:35.760 --> 01:44:40.119 want to encroach. There was an odia there. They hosted the general. 1160 01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:45.079 They were in uniform. They all went in this room where the officers were 1161 01:44:45.079 --> 01:44:49.159 gonna eat this luncheon, and so I stayed out because I went in civilian 1162 01:44:49.199 --> 01:44:55.520 clothes with all the juneys, you know, the really low level Yemeni guys, 1163 01:44:56.119 --> 01:45:00.399 and hey, I'm in there in the middle, you know, with 1164 01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:06.399 my hand, go grabbing and rice grabbing and eating with my hand and having 1165 01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:12.600 a good time. After that, I said, well, nothing speaks the 1166 01:45:12.680 --> 01:45:17.760 language like training. So I went outside and was doing some disarming techniques and 1167 01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:23.840 I was letting people with knives try to, you know, see if they 1168 01:45:23.880 --> 01:45:29.239 could attack me. And I was doing some takeaways and stuff like that. 1169 01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:33.000 So I had this big group around me, and I guess the luncheon finished 1170 01:45:33.039 --> 01:45:38.079 in there and they came outside, and I guess the general came outside and 1171 01:45:38.119 --> 01:45:41.880 sees this crowd of people around there, and then he comes and I'm in 1172 01:45:41.880 --> 01:45:44.439 the middle of it, and he goes, what are you doing? And 1173 01:45:45.439 --> 01:45:48.279 you know, he saw what I was doing, and I think, you 1174 01:45:48.319 --> 01:45:54.479 know, and he was like okay, And so he looked at me a 1175 01:45:54.479 --> 01:46:00.079 little differently from that point because he didn't see me as this filion guy with 1176 01:46:00.199 --> 01:46:03.760 long hair, right stuff. And we go back and it was funny because 1177 01:46:03.800 --> 01:46:11.399 it's a holiday. We get back and he's supposed to go to some dinner, 1178 01:46:11.680 --> 01:46:16.319 some big dinner that night, and we are late and it's running behind 1179 01:46:16.399 --> 01:46:23.520 and I'm driving him, and so I pick him up after he give him 1180 01:46:23.560 --> 01:46:26.600 a chance to get cleaned up, and I pick him up in the car 1181 01:46:27.079 --> 01:46:31.159 and he wants to go to the Marriott Hotel and go to the gift shop. 1182 01:46:31.600 --> 01:46:34.640 He said, I was here six months ago. And so we go 1183 01:46:34.680 --> 01:46:41.880 in the gift shop and he's looking for a souvenir to take home, and 1184 01:46:42.760 --> 01:46:46.560 you know, we're looking and looking and I'm looking at my watching like he's, 1185 01:46:46.680 --> 01:46:49.800 you know, I'm supposed you're supposed to be at that dinner like already, 1186 01:46:49.880 --> 01:46:56.000 you know, And and he's looking and looking and he's now and now 1187 01:46:56.039 --> 01:46:58.680 he'll talk to me, and he goes, sertain Harrington, what do you 1188 01:46:58.760 --> 01:47:00.840 think of this? And what are you think of that? And I'm like, 1189 01:47:00.920 --> 01:47:03.880 yeah, okay, sir lt. And then then he tells me, 1190 01:47:04.199 --> 01:47:09.279 you know, and I just want to think about that. But somebody, 1191 01:47:09.319 --> 01:47:12.880 because he's passed now then you know. At some point he looked at me 1192 01:47:12.920 --> 01:47:15.960 and said, yeah, you know, I got to buy something to take 1193 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:19.960 home because you need one of those uh things that it's not at his exact 1194 01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:27.079 words, but that lubricates things to h to take home and h. He 1195 01:47:27.199 --> 01:47:32.119 used a different terminology, but uh. And I was like okay. And 1196 01:47:32.119 --> 01:47:34.800 then I go away. I'm like, moh man, it's getting late. 1197 01:47:35.640 --> 01:47:40.359 And he calls me over there again, like the third time, and he 1198 01:47:40.399 --> 01:47:43.119 goes, oh, I sorry, herts, I can't decide on this. 1199 01:47:43.199 --> 01:47:45.359 He goes, I swear I was here six months ago and this thing was 1200 01:47:46.000 --> 01:47:50.640 forty or fifty dollars cheaper, and they want uh ninety dollars or one hundred 1201 01:47:50.640 --> 01:47:56.800 dollars for this this painting or whatever it was at that point, and we 1202 01:47:56.800 --> 01:48:00.760 were so late at that point, I'm like, hey, I guess i'll 1203 01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:03.840 throw it all on the line now. So I said, so he said 1204 01:48:03.880 --> 01:48:08.640 what do you think? And I looked at him and I said, I 1205 01:48:08.680 --> 01:48:15.000 don't give a flying f about that. I goes, you're a g D 1206 01:48:15.960 --> 01:48:21.720 general And it seems to me if you want to buy a blanking one hundred 1207 01:48:21.720 --> 01:48:26.920 dollars painting to take home and get the effect, you said you wanted, 1208 01:48:27.720 --> 01:48:31.960 then you want to be able to buy it. And at first I thought, 1209 01:48:32.640 --> 01:48:36.640 oh my god, I've overstepped my head because he looked at me like 1210 01:48:36.840 --> 01:48:44.000 he went red like that. He glared at me, and and I was 1211 01:48:44.039 --> 01:48:47.479 like, oh, I have really stepped into it. And he stared at 1212 01:48:47.479 --> 01:48:51.560 me, and then he broke out laughing, and he goes, there, 1213 01:48:51.840 --> 01:48:58.520 you're right, he goes, and he bought it. And then and then 1214 01:48:58.560 --> 01:49:01.800 we get in the car and I started driving like hell, I'm you know, 1215 01:49:01.960 --> 01:49:09.720 cutting across mediums and driving, and he was I guess he was nervous. 1216 01:49:09.840 --> 01:49:15.560 He was doing like this in the seat and I was like, what's 1217 01:49:15.640 --> 01:49:17.239 up, sir, And he goes, well, I need to stop and 1218 01:49:17.279 --> 01:49:21.359 get a gift for the hostess. I go, you have that bag of 1219 01:49:21.399 --> 01:49:26.279 stuff that your aid has. The'll just give her something some of that. 1220 01:49:26.399 --> 01:49:28.960 We don't need to stop, and he goes, yeah, sometimes I just 1221 01:49:28.960 --> 01:49:30.760 get keyed up. He goes, man, I just wish I could have 1222 01:49:30.800 --> 01:49:33.439 a beer. I go the only place to have a beer is back at 1223 01:49:33.439 --> 01:49:36.199 the Marriott where we just left. He goes, well, I wish I 1224 01:49:36.319 --> 01:49:43.000 and I and I turned a car across the medium and we went back and 1225 01:49:43.159 --> 01:49:47.760 grabbed a beer at the Marriott, and then I took him to his dinner 1226 01:49:48.680 --> 01:49:51.560 and all that, and uh, you know, it was funny because after 1227 01:49:51.600 --> 01:49:58.560 that, you know, my my thing and yemming ended. I went home. 1228 01:49:58.640 --> 01:50:03.319 Oh oh, more and more thing on frank Tony. So he gets 1229 01:50:03.319 --> 01:50:09.880 that, he gets ready to leave the country. He goes down to the 1230 01:50:09.920 --> 01:50:16.079 sook and he buys this big sword. Everybody came through buying stuff. Matter 1231 01:50:16.119 --> 01:50:21.159 of fact, General Zenny had a plane that came through with all his staff 1232 01:50:21.600 --> 01:50:30.800 and they simply to go souvenir buying in Yemen. It's okay, but he 1233 01:50:30.840 --> 01:50:38.079 couldn't get his sword on the plane to go a commercial plane to go home. 1234 01:50:38.319 --> 01:50:41.239 So he left it with me, can you get this home? And 1235 01:50:41.319 --> 01:50:46.359 it was a few months later he was already home and General Zenny's small plane 1236 01:50:46.399 --> 01:50:49.800 came through for because he came in for a visit. And I was like, 1237 01:50:50.840 --> 01:50:56.239 I'll get your sword at home, So you're going to Tampa, okay. 1238 01:50:56.279 --> 01:50:59.439 And I made a deal with the pilots and I'm gonna stick his sword 1239 01:50:59.560 --> 01:51:03.279 on the on the plane. So I sent a note back. You know, 1240 01:51:03.439 --> 01:51:06.880 of course, as I've already put this into play, I sent a 1241 01:51:06.920 --> 01:51:10.640 note back to Tampa that hey, I got that, and then it came 1242 01:51:10.680 --> 01:51:15.399 back do not put that sword on that plane because he did not want to 1243 01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:23.880 be perceived as impinging on General Zenny to get a personal thing back. And 1244 01:51:23.920 --> 01:51:28.000 I was like, yeah, too late, it's gone, and I sent 1245 01:51:28.119 --> 01:51:31.119 his sword back. But you know, after that, you know, I 1246 01:51:31.199 --> 01:51:36.840 did a follow on classified thing where I went to Kuwait to do the first 1247 01:51:38.880 --> 01:51:47.039 AFO office thing where I supervised some oda's doing some battlefield you know, preparation 1248 01:51:47.079 --> 01:51:54.600 of the battlefield activities and uh and General Tony was the guy I had to 1249 01:51:54.800 --> 01:51:58.079 brief, you know, And it is interested because I you know, he 1250 01:51:58.520 --> 01:52:00.960 we got were we knew each other, had a long time to get a 1251 01:52:00.960 --> 01:52:03.439 haircut at that point in time or well, of course I did get a 1252 01:52:03.439 --> 01:52:08.640 haircut at that point in time, but it was just that funny. Yeah. 1253 01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:13.159 Well it's interesting too because you know, prior to the g Watt right, 1254 01:52:13.720 --> 01:52:17.159 like, you know, you'd see guys from maybe debt A and Germany 1255 01:52:17.760 --> 01:52:26.239 or whatever that, but but relaxed grooming standards wasn't a thing. And and 1256 01:52:26.119 --> 01:52:30.159 and you know maybe with like Delta or whatever, but but in general, 1257 01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:34.720 lack grooming standards was like like people didn't like it. They didn't. It 1258 01:52:34.800 --> 01:52:40.239 wasn't a thing. And it wasn't until we became more active, I guess, 1259 01:52:40.880 --> 01:52:45.399 you know, as a force on the world stage, where where it 1260 01:52:45.479 --> 01:52:48.880 became just more of an accepted practice. Dude, I had I had a 1261 01:52:48.920 --> 01:52:53.600 memo from my commander that said, I was'm relaxed grooming standards and like I 1262 01:52:53.640 --> 01:52:57.479 got kicked out of post gyms, like you can't work out here really. 1263 01:52:57.479 --> 01:53:01.000 Well, it's like the SF guys at Fort Campbell, you know, if 1264 01:53:01.000 --> 01:53:08.960 you didn't wear the ankle over the ankle white sox, Serge majors would chase 1265 01:53:09.000 --> 01:53:15.960 you down and and that. But what like what it's so crazy like the 1266 01:53:15.039 --> 01:53:18.800 things that especially a peacetime military, I mean even in the wartime. I 1267 01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:26.640 remember I remember uh a uh bogram how once like major commands that settled in 1268 01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:31.439 how everybody was supposed to wear a PT belt at all hours and that's the 1269 01:53:31.520 --> 01:53:35.199 nature of it, right, But let's be honest. When when I went 1270 01:53:35.239 --> 01:53:41.680 to Delta, right we say relaxed groomy standards. What you want to do 1271 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:45.880 anywhere when you go when you're a new person, is you want to fit 1272 01:53:45.960 --> 01:53:48.960 in right and you want to assume the identity of the people ahead of you. 1273 01:53:49.439 --> 01:53:53.640 So back in the day when I went, you know, talking about 1274 01:53:53.760 --> 01:54:00.720 nineteen ninety ish, that the Delta uniform was to grow your air longer. 1275 01:54:00.359 --> 01:54:04.239 And you couldn't have a beard, but you grew that mustache out further than 1276 01:54:04.239 --> 01:54:09.560 you could. Now. It wasn't supposed to go down like this, but 1277 01:54:09.600 --> 01:54:14.840 you could go past the ends of the borders of your lips, which the 1278 01:54:14.880 --> 01:54:17.720 military, you know, the rest of the military, uh didn't allow. 1279 01:54:18.359 --> 01:54:24.520 And then what else the polo shirt and the straight legged, three button five 1280 01:54:24.600 --> 01:54:29.840 oh one jeans and the hush puppy high top shoes. So what you're doing 1281 01:54:30.319 --> 01:54:33.279 is I'm not wearing a uniform because I need to blend in. But what 1282 01:54:33.319 --> 01:54:39.880 I'm doing is wearing an exact form, right, just a different uniform, 1283 01:54:40.039 --> 01:54:43.479 right, and and and and we did that religiously, and we thought, 1284 01:54:43.520 --> 01:54:45.159 and what did I tell myself, I'm blending in? Yeah, like that, 1285 01:54:45.560 --> 01:54:50.039 But what I really wanted to be do was to be identified with those 1286 01:54:50.079 --> 01:54:56.239 people other people that I saw, right and then, and I think that 1287 01:54:56.359 --> 01:55:00.439 was true. I mean that was true of like every organization and that tried 1288 01:55:00.479 --> 01:55:04.880 to blend in. Is that all of their here was either from Arii or 1289 01:55:04.960 --> 01:55:12.560 North Face like it was. It's also it's also here, but it's also 1290 01:55:13.520 --> 01:55:17.000 yeah yeah, yeah, that's yeah. But it's all five to eleven and 1291 01:55:17.119 --> 01:55:20.159 Arii and you know, and well that used to be the thing in the 1292 01:55:20.199 --> 01:55:26.600 agency when I was out there that you know, then you the agency before 1293 01:55:26.640 --> 01:55:32.079 somebody would go to the war zone. They give you this uh payment to 1294 01:55:32.159 --> 01:55:36.239 go out and buy clothes. So a lot of people went to Orvius or 1295 01:55:36.279 --> 01:55:40.239 like you said, Arii, but a lot of to Orvius. And you 1296 01:55:40.279 --> 01:55:44.760 see that guys show up. It's wearing the Fisherman shirt, the car new 1297 01:55:44.800 --> 01:55:53.479 Cargo pants and Keene or whatever brand boots and all that stuff. It's all 1298 01:55:53.560 --> 01:55:58.920 brand new stuff. And you that you know, and that's and and look 1299 01:55:59.239 --> 01:56:02.119 what they're doing their job. One of my favorite stories is about it's from 1300 01:56:02.199 --> 01:56:08.560 the Indians and the Pakistanians went to war in Kashmir and I think it was 1301 01:56:08.640 --> 01:56:14.319 nineteen ninety nine and the Indians, like their mountaineer troop shows up at an 1302 01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:18.640 Arii in the UK and they're like, yeah, we want this and we're 1303 01:56:18.640 --> 01:56:20.800 going to be in the mountains. We need this and that, and they're 1304 01:56:20.880 --> 01:56:23.640 like, oh, you need this, this, and this, and they're 1305 01:56:23.640 --> 01:56:25.079 like, oh, how do you know that? They're like, oh, 1306 01:56:25.119 --> 01:56:30.239 the Pakistinians, we're here a week ago. Yeah, what it's like in 1307 01:56:30.439 --> 01:56:36.800 Uh, when I went to coast to open up the Coast base in Afghanistan, 1308 01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:45.640 we parachuted in all these the cias sent all these crates that we parachuted 1309 01:56:45.720 --> 01:56:51.720 in that had you know, in addition to the arms and ammunition, we're 1310 01:56:51.880 --> 01:56:57.479 clothing winter clothing because nobody had winter clothing. So we're getting all these things 1311 01:56:57.520 --> 01:57:05.239 that have the parkas, the field jackets, boots, Uh, what's the 1312 01:57:05.319 --> 01:57:15.079 browns? Poly polypro, wool caps, booney caps, all that stuff. 1313 01:57:15.880 --> 01:57:19.720 So you know, we start giving it out. Well here we are used 1314 01:57:19.760 --> 01:57:24.920 to Americans, and we had to hold a class because next thing you know, 1315 01:57:25.159 --> 01:57:30.279 here it comes guys out wearing polypro on top of their of their other 1316 01:57:30.439 --> 01:57:34.399 clothes and there's a guy wearing a booney cap and on top of that is 1317 01:57:34.439 --> 01:57:39.960 a wool cap stuck on top of that. And when it was like comical, 1318 01:57:40.439 --> 01:57:43.520 stuff is like, okay, we have to give him a class on 1319 01:57:43.600 --> 01:57:46.800 how to wear the globes. Yeah, it's crazy, it's you're you're absolutely 1320 01:57:46.880 --> 01:57:49.520 right, that like it becomes a look and by the time it ends up 1321 01:57:49.560 --> 01:57:54.039 on like twelve inch action figure g I Joe's that it like it's a look 1322 01:57:54.079 --> 01:57:56.479 A lot of people are trying to repel. Well, I wouldn't even I 1323 01:57:56.479 --> 01:58:00.199 mean by the time it, you know, ends up in Brooklyn where all 1324 01:58:00.239 --> 01:58:03.560 of a sudden, beards are super fashionable again and everybody's wearing some sort of 1325 01:58:04.600 --> 01:58:08.840 everybody's wearing a schimager, you know, some sort of you know, something 1326 01:58:08.840 --> 01:58:11.239 around their neck, you know, when it's like part of hips or culture. 1327 01:58:11.319 --> 01:58:15.840 Like, Wow, this is really progressed from you know, because we 1328 01:58:15.239 --> 01:58:18.560 you know, it's about that we all want to be part of some group 1329 01:58:18.600 --> 01:58:23.399 and identified with some way. Sure, and it's I think even some ways 1330 01:58:23.439 --> 01:58:29.199 subconscious that we sure. Absolutely, Yeah, Gary, I'd like to like, 1331 01:58:29.279 --> 01:58:31.600 since we're a little bit jumping around, but I would like to jump 1332 01:58:31.640 --> 01:58:38.239 back into into your time dealing with Syria, because like that's a period that 1333 01:58:38.279 --> 01:58:44.319 I'm kind of fascinating but fascinating and have some experience in precisely because you tell 1334 01:58:44.359 --> 01:58:47.279 us about like what your intersection was with the Syrian conflict, civil war, 1335 01:58:47.359 --> 01:58:53.000 whatever you'd like to call it a little complicated, but we're when did that 1336 01:58:53.000 --> 01:58:59.560 come up on your radar? Sou for me in as early as like twenty 1337 01:58:59.680 --> 01:59:05.840 eleven, super earlier that I came back from the country I've been in for 1338 01:59:05.840 --> 01:59:15.119 the last two years and was assigned to New East Division and the office that 1339 01:59:15.279 --> 01:59:27.600 handled three countries, Syria and a couple other countries, a couple other No 1340 01:59:27.720 --> 01:59:32.039 Iraq it did. It did not include Iraq, and it did not include 1341 01:59:32.119 --> 01:59:38.239 Turkey, and it did not include Lebanon because that was that EU r U 1342 01:59:38.760 --> 01:59:46.640 europe Folk base. So but they said at the beginning, well, you 1343 01:59:46.760 --> 01:59:54.319 got all this wartime experience, and things in Iraq aren't going well, and 1344 01:59:54.359 --> 02:00:03.319 we think that will become the next hotspot, the next place. So we 1345 02:00:03.399 --> 02:00:10.039 want you on to be here early to be able to set the table, 1346 02:00:10.239 --> 02:00:14.159 you know, sort of like I did in the military, right to to 1347 02:00:14.600 --> 02:00:20.319 step into to build this up, so to transition ultimately when things get bad 1348 02:00:20.439 --> 02:00:28.119 enough, into a task force to you know, to focus on Syria. 1349 02:00:28.279 --> 02:00:38.079 So so that's what I did, and you know, regular stuff for a 1350 02:00:38.119 --> 02:00:45.680 while, and then gradually things started deteriorating in Syria. What does that look 1351 02:00:45.720 --> 02:00:48.680 like as you move from like phase zero operations to like, you know, 1352 02:00:48.720 --> 02:00:55.560 kind of phase four. Maybe you know, I really think your Special Forces 1353 02:00:55.640 --> 02:01:01.520 training really helps you see that. Maybe we're people around me didn't so you 1354 02:01:01.560 --> 02:01:04.840 could see that. And I think one of the first things for me, 1355 02:01:05.079 --> 02:01:12.000 and given my experience in Yemen and given my experience in Afghanistan, one of 1356 02:01:12.039 --> 02:01:15.399 the very first things I said was, Hey, this eventually is going to 1357 02:01:15.479 --> 02:01:19.720 get big enough, it's going to shift to the military. So what I 1358 02:01:19.800 --> 02:01:25.760 want to do is from the beginning, I said, I want to include 1359 02:01:26.439 --> 02:01:33.600 so calm and socks sent in on what we're discussing. We can get people 1360 02:01:33.680 --> 02:01:40.359 the right classifications to talk about it, but we need to engage them from 1361 02:01:40.359 --> 02:01:45.840 again, because how does it always start in a conflict? The CIA comes 1362 02:01:45.880 --> 02:01:50.720 in first, it's under covert action authorities, so we start right, and 1363 02:01:50.720 --> 02:01:57.359 then we go up that ramp and hostilities escalate right and then at some point 1364 02:01:57.600 --> 02:02:03.960 it turns over generally too special forces first and then to bigger army. So 1365 02:02:06.520 --> 02:02:11.479 having been in the conflicts I'd been, and I was like, let's make 1366 02:02:11.520 --> 02:02:15.720 this a little less difficult. Let's make it. Let's include them at the 1367 02:02:15.760 --> 02:02:27.479 beginning. So there's a smooth transition, but you know, organizational differences and 1368 02:02:28.000 --> 02:02:31.399 the folks above me in the CIA, We're like, no, we can't 1369 02:02:31.479 --> 02:02:40.680 know, we can't do that. And you know, at some point I 1370 02:02:40.720 --> 02:02:51.159 went with somebody down to brief at at at SITCOM and in later so calm. 1371 02:02:51.199 --> 02:02:56.399 But the first time I was like, let's just share and talk about 1372 02:02:56.439 --> 02:03:02.119 it. It's like, no, we're not gonna tell them everything, and 1373 02:03:00.039 --> 02:03:05.239 uh. And I was a little bit disappointed with that. But you know, 1374 02:03:05.359 --> 02:03:14.399 I understand. You know, the military has it's it's uh in some 1375 02:03:14.479 --> 02:03:17.960 areas, doesn't trust the agency completely. You know. It was my experience 1376 02:03:18.000 --> 02:03:24.039 in Afghanistan with John mulholland and the whole reason I got put in there, 1377 02:03:25.279 --> 02:03:29.000 and it's the same with the Agency in the army. And having been in 1378 02:03:29.119 --> 02:03:34.039 both, I see why there is some justification for each of those. But 1379 02:03:34.119 --> 02:03:41.640 I feel that the overall effort for the United States suffers one of the humorous 1380 02:03:41.680 --> 02:03:45.800 things. And I hope that whoever this guy is, sorry, I don't 1381 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:50.640 remember your name, or maybe it's a good I don't. But you know, 1382 02:03:50.680 --> 02:03:58.840 I'm sitting now in this Agency office when we're gonna detail a fifth group 1383 02:03:58.920 --> 02:04:08.319 team to the Agency to go do some initial stuff there. So I'm like, 1384 02:04:08.359 --> 02:04:11.039 wow, things have changed. I'm not that guy. Now I'm on 1385 02:04:11.159 --> 02:04:17.000 this end, you know. And this team shows up and you know, 1386 02:04:17.079 --> 02:04:20.760 I'm I'm I'm proud of my fifth group guys, and I want them to 1387 02:04:20.800 --> 02:04:25.960 show a good face. And and they come in and they start processing, 1388 02:04:26.600 --> 02:04:30.439 and then like the second or third day, there's a guy that comes in 1389 02:04:30.439 --> 02:04:42.439 in a suit and he's wearing those five fingered and a suit that's we didn't 1390 02:04:42.439 --> 02:04:45.279 tie. Yeah, And he came in and I'm like and and of course 1391 02:04:45.319 --> 02:04:49.159 people and astre looking at me, like, heyse are you And I was 1392 02:04:49.199 --> 02:04:57.439 like, what are you doing? And he said, I got blisters because 1393 02:04:57.600 --> 02:05:00.359 I don't wear dress shoes. And I bought those dress shoes and game here 1394 02:05:00.399 --> 02:05:04.800 and I got blisters the first two days, so I'm wearing knees. And 1395 02:05:04.920 --> 02:05:13.560 I said, oh no, no, no, you go home. You're 1396 02:05:13.560 --> 02:05:18.119 a hotel whatever, and get on. I don't care what other shoes it 1397 02:05:18.199 --> 02:05:21.680 is, but you're not coming in here that way. I said, you 1398 02:05:21.760 --> 02:05:31.640 represent your group and uh and he so we sent him back. No, 1399 02:05:31.680 --> 02:05:35.079 I'm gonna tell you, I hate to say this haven't been one, but 1400 02:05:35.119 --> 02:05:40.000 if it wasn't an officer, who's the next guy? You would guess the 1401 02:05:40.079 --> 02:05:46.319 next position on a team warrant officer. It was the medic So so the 1402 02:05:46.399 --> 02:05:49.479 five fingers, if you guys haven't seen them, they're they're basically like athletic 1403 02:05:49.520 --> 02:05:56.199 shoes that have a slot for each toe, but they're just it's like it's 1404 02:05:56.239 --> 02:06:01.359 they're like wearing like rubber ballets birds with with us with each of the five 1405 02:06:01.399 --> 02:06:05.239 time. At that time, there was a there's an artifact of the time 1406 02:06:05.399 --> 02:06:09.239 that Yeah, I mean they were great for the gym, you know, 1407 02:06:09.319 --> 02:06:12.960 they were they were great for what they were for, which was working out 1408 02:06:13.319 --> 02:06:17.199 that that's what they were. You know, then that might might be old 1409 02:06:17.239 --> 02:06:23.279 school, no, but but to where when the suit is ridiculous, you'd 1410 02:06:23.279 --> 02:06:27.079 be better off whar in your O D green jungle boots. Yeah yeah, 1411 02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:31.720 yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yeah, that was so there's a 1412 02:06:31.720 --> 02:06:35.079 bit of a culture clash, is what you're saying. And the whole serial 1413 02:06:35.199 --> 02:06:44.840 thing for me with just reminiscent of of of Lebanon as as a marine of 1414 02:06:45.680 --> 02:06:54.119 what happened with the coal, of what happened with Yemen, it will Yemen, 1415 02:06:54.399 --> 02:07:03.560 and then thirteen hours oh Benghazi, Benghazi. It was you know, 1416 02:07:03.720 --> 02:07:12.800 sort of the same thing that I got feeling I was somewhat more experienced and 1417 02:07:13.000 --> 02:07:16.800 unconventional warfare. At the very beginning, I was arguing about how we were 1418 02:07:16.800 --> 02:07:23.960 going to prosecute the war in Syria. And there was this big group of 1419 02:07:24.000 --> 02:07:30.279 people led by I think a lot of people on the National Security Council and 1420 02:07:30.880 --> 02:07:39.920 Hillary Clinton at the State Department, and senators like McCain that were really pushing 1421 02:07:40.000 --> 02:07:44.640 the Free Syria Army as the people that the America needs to tie up with. 1422 02:07:45.159 --> 02:07:50.119 And the Free Syrian Army was of a group of retired Sunni generals that 1423 02:07:50.199 --> 02:07:58.680 lived the good life in Turkey, and they claimed they had all this access 1424 02:07:59.279 --> 02:08:07.319 and influence inside Syria. And the appeal to people, to senators and senior 1425 02:08:07.439 --> 02:08:15.319 government officials was that hey, here's somebody in Turkey that I can fly into 1426 02:08:15.399 --> 02:08:18.560 Turkey, go have a nice dinner and sit down with these people and talk 1427 02:08:18.600 --> 02:08:26.159 about mutual goals and how they can help, and I can promise them money 1428 02:08:26.439 --> 02:08:31.439 and I've achieved what I need to achieve for my personal and national political right. 1429 02:08:33.840 --> 02:08:37.760 And you know, I was arguing that based on my experience, that 1430 02:08:37.840 --> 02:08:43.640 it's not that general outside that used to be out there. It's the guy 1431 02:08:43.319 --> 02:08:50.039 on the battlefield that's going to gain influence. And then when we started seeing 1432 02:08:52.239 --> 02:09:00.640 I forget what we called them at first before they became liceis the trained guys 1433 02:09:00.680 --> 02:09:05.079 trained at the Afghan terror camps, the Corussian group. Yet the Corrossan group 1434 02:09:05.800 --> 02:09:13.279 came into Syria that those it helped, those local commanders become the people that 1435 02:09:13.319 --> 02:09:16.399 had the influence on the ground. And we all know you lead from the 1436 02:09:16.479 --> 02:09:24.960 front and that you know, politicians may talk about the big picture and guys 1437 02:09:24.279 --> 02:09:28.159 in in Turkey, but it's the other people that are in the game popularity. 1438 02:09:28.520 --> 02:09:33.560 And I disagreed with the way we prosecuted that in you know, I 1439 02:09:35.000 --> 02:09:39.439 felt that if we're going to get involved, we should send teams to go 1440 02:09:39.640 --> 02:09:45.960 and you stay and you live, and you you're there for the duration and 1441 02:09:46.079 --> 02:09:50.960 you go. But you know, we've just morphed as a society, as 1442 02:09:52.000 --> 02:10:01.319 a in the national defense arena where it's easier to build bases in Jordan or 1443 02:10:01.399 --> 02:10:07.560 surrounding countries and pull people out and you send people for ninety days, you 1444 02:10:07.560 --> 02:10:11.399 know, because that's not disrupting everybody too much. And so I can go 1445 02:10:11.520 --> 02:10:18.319 here and I can have my gym and my chow hall and train people for 1446 02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:22.720 ninety days and you know, we'll all feel good about sending them. That's 1447 02:10:22.720 --> 02:10:28.520 exactly what happened. And I was against that, but you know that was 1448 02:10:28.600 --> 02:10:35.239 main interagency programs in Turkey and Jordan. And I mean, I've had a 1449 02:10:35.239 --> 02:10:39.600 lot of people from CIA, and I don't think there's really such a controversial 1450 02:10:39.640 --> 02:10:43.560 view, but I'd be interested here your take on it. People said that 1451 02:10:43.600 --> 02:10:46.079 we got involved, that we got invested in the civil war, the Scherian 1452 02:10:46.119 --> 02:10:50.199 Civil War, way too late, that maybe if we had invested a little 1453 02:10:50.199 --> 02:10:54.680 bit earlier on, we could have found quote unquote moderate rebels, but by 1454 02:10:54.720 --> 02:10:56.399 the time that we did get involved, it was kind of too late. 1455 02:10:56.520 --> 02:11:01.039 All those so called moderates had all the defected to extremist sides because they were 1456 02:11:01.079 --> 02:11:03.239 the ones that had the cloud, they were the ones who had the funding 1457 02:11:03.279 --> 02:11:07.279 from the Gulf States, and that, like we had just gotten involved, 1458 02:11:07.279 --> 02:11:11.720 we missed the ball on it. And well, if we're going to get 1459 02:11:11.760 --> 02:11:18.079 involved, we gotten involved in a real way too late. But even in 1460 02:11:18.119 --> 02:11:24.680 the beginning I questioned why, And I'll tell you that from what I gathered 1461 02:11:24.720 --> 02:11:30.039 coming from the National Security Council and the White House and the State Department, 1462 02:11:31.000 --> 02:11:41.119 was that the people like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and other people that are 1463 02:11:41.880 --> 02:11:48.920 still players in National Security Council, that they all considered Libya a big, 1464 02:11:50.439 --> 02:11:54.720 a big win for them because the President said he should go they're a little 1465 02:11:54.760 --> 02:12:01.520 they're a little And so I know some of the details about how and what 1466 02:12:01.720 --> 02:12:07.479 happened in Libya, and so from my standpoint, it was an abject failure. 1467 02:12:07.319 --> 02:12:13.479 And there and we had no influence in Libya right after zero with our 1468 02:12:13.520 --> 02:12:18.159 boy after well and and and here's the reason why. Again, my whole 1469 02:12:18.159 --> 02:12:26.000 thing about these generals in Turkey is that the US wanted to be involved, 1470 02:12:26.079 --> 02:12:31.399 but not really involved. So when you're the guy that whispers in the guy's 1471 02:12:31.479 --> 02:12:33.760 ear that you should do this and that, but you're not the guy that 1472 02:12:33.800 --> 02:12:39.840 will go out with him and do it. Yeah, you're not the guy 1473 02:12:39.960 --> 02:12:43.560 he's going to turn to when it chips her down. So when Libya ended, 1474 02:12:43.560 --> 02:12:48.600 we had no influence. And but then politically and in the press at 1475 02:12:48.600 --> 02:12:56.159 home, Libya was a success. Right, President says this, The good 1476 02:12:56.199 --> 02:12:58.000 daffy went down, and we didn't do a whole lot other than wink air 1477 02:12:58.119 --> 02:13:01.920 strikes and right, yeah, but then it was like so this is what 1478 02:13:01.920 --> 02:13:05.279 we're gonna do. And because I was like, do we really need to 1479 02:13:05.279 --> 02:13:07.279 get rid of a side? Right? Do we really? Because we have 1480 02:13:09.359 --> 02:13:13.479 this, But then there's that the I think the backside of that that I 1481 02:13:13.479 --> 02:13:18.880 don't know how many people talk about, is that we upset a lot of 1482 02:13:18.880 --> 02:13:24.079 our allies in the Arab world, particularly in UAE and Saudi Arabia and cutter 1483 02:13:26.159 --> 02:13:33.960 because we took you know, Iraq, which was Shia majority but ruled by 1484 02:13:35.079 --> 02:13:39.319 Sunni minority, but somewhat stable, right, and we flipped it, and 1485 02:13:39.359 --> 02:13:43.600 we flipped it all right, and it was it was it was mostly secular, 1486 02:13:45.079 --> 02:13:48.560 you know, like say what you want, like Saddam. Saddam was 1487 02:13:48.600 --> 02:13:52.760 a horrible person, Yeah he was, but then he and and he liked 1488 02:13:52.800 --> 02:13:56.520 to talk about his heritage back to you know, through the Quran and everything. 1489 02:13:56.279 --> 02:14:00.920 Right, But but and it was and it was a Kiran. I'm 1490 02:14:00.960 --> 02:14:05.159 in no way saying that he was a good person or there were benefits to 1491 02:14:05.199 --> 02:14:09.640 him, but but it was but it was a it was a mostly secular 1492 02:14:09.720 --> 02:14:13.520 like he didn't care about religions so much as he cared about Stath Party, 1493 02:14:13.800 --> 02:14:18.800 Communist party guy. Yeah. Yeah, But but when we when we look 1494 02:14:18.840 --> 02:14:26.319 at that at a side, people saw the opportunity and and and to me, 1495 02:14:26.800 --> 02:14:31.399 yeah, yeah, I really try to stay out of the political realm. 1496 02:14:31.439 --> 02:14:37.199 But I view I became to view this as all political right that there 1497 02:14:37.199 --> 02:14:48.239 were people that we're looking at possibly potential future presidential runs, and and a 1498 02:14:48.359 --> 02:14:52.279 current president that like that, wait a minute, If I make this statement 1499 02:14:52.359 --> 02:15:01.399 and he must go or here's my line and we make that happen, then 1500 02:15:01.520 --> 02:15:05.880 I've won a political It's a big farm. And and like I said, 1501 02:15:07.000 --> 02:15:11.720 those three Arab countries put a lot of pressure on us that you took a 1502 02:15:11.920 --> 02:15:16.560 Sunni ruled country and flipped it over to Shia. Well, next door here 1503 02:15:16.920 --> 02:15:24.279 is a Sunni country ruled by Shia. So let's balance the legend. The 1504 02:15:24.319 --> 02:15:28.119 other interesting wrinkle in that too is the Russians also that we told them that 1505 02:15:28.640 --> 02:15:33.359 this is not going to be a regime change operation in Libya, but pretty 1506 02:15:33.439 --> 02:15:39.319 much from day one we were engaging a regime change operation. Libya was the 1507 02:15:39.359 --> 02:15:43.319 biggest, if not maybe the second biggest client state of the Russian military hardware 1508 02:15:43.079 --> 02:15:48.600 after Gadaffi's gone. Next one up is Syria right where they where they have 1509 02:15:48.920 --> 02:15:52.920 they're only well yeah, they're only warm water port. Yeah yeah, and 1510 02:15:54.079 --> 02:15:58.920 it's and it's Russia's second, Yeah, I believe second. Yeah, it 1511 02:15:58.920 --> 02:16:05.079 would have been second large just quine of military hardware. So and they got 1512 02:16:05.079 --> 02:16:09.640 involved in both of those countries. And then the whole Iran thing was yeah, 1513 02:16:11.319 --> 02:16:15.479 yeah, it was Yeah, it was a mess. And you know, 1514 02:16:15.680 --> 02:16:20.039 I didn't understand why we really had to go with that. But but 1515 02:16:20.159 --> 02:16:24.520 I'm a military at heart, a military person that if we're going to do 1516 02:16:24.600 --> 02:16:28.039 it, then here's the way we should do it. And I'm I'm for 1517 02:16:28.319 --> 02:16:33.920 let's go for it, all right, and not this let's pressure from the 1518 02:16:33.959 --> 02:16:37.840 borders right here and are on my and and it's never gonna work. Yeah, 1519 02:16:37.879 --> 02:16:41.760 and and and it's weird that we have this, this fascination with the 1520 02:16:41.799 --> 02:16:46.600 Middle East, and is you know, overthrowing these regimes, these tyrants, 1521 02:16:46.760 --> 02:16:54.000 and they are you know, they they are dictators. But we don't provide 1522 02:16:56.520 --> 02:17:00.879 a viable solution after that, like if if when we look at Libya, 1523 02:17:01.440 --> 02:17:05.520 like not saying that life was great under Kadafi, but it didn't get much 1524 02:17:05.559 --> 02:17:11.000 better after him, when you consider that they reopened the slave markets in Tripoli, 1525 02:17:11.120 --> 02:17:16.799 like it got bad, and you know, even Libya, which we 1526 02:17:16.840 --> 02:17:24.360 would consider a third world country, refused American diplomatic efforts at first. We 1527 02:17:24.440 --> 02:17:31.440 won't even see him, right, So yeah, yeah, and now, 1528 02:17:31.600 --> 02:17:39.600 and it's really funny that I think during the Obama administration, we people like 1529 02:17:39.840 --> 02:17:46.520 to ridicule the Bushes uh foreign policy with Bush rice, where it was, 1530 02:17:46.399 --> 02:17:54.600 let's make the places that are hot beds for terrorists, uh, for for 1531 02:17:54.879 --> 02:18:03.959 building terrorists and and creating terrorists and make them into viable countries where that people 1532 02:18:03.000 --> 02:18:07.959 can have are in a living and be more democratic, and then we won't 1533 02:18:07.159 --> 02:18:13.799 have the things that So that was all the Bush doctrine because was ridiculed. 1534 02:18:13.120 --> 02:18:20.239 But yet here we went in stay that's sort of the same thing. We 1535 02:18:20.319 --> 02:18:24.959 go to Libya to do this. Now we go to Syria right right, 1536 02:18:26.079 --> 02:18:31.360 and it's like in these places that that are dictat it's almost the opposite where 1537 02:18:31.399 --> 02:18:37.280 the Bush doctrine was naive and the idea that we can go in and sort 1538 02:18:37.319 --> 02:18:41.399 of you know, give these places like a means to not be these terrorist 1539 02:18:41.399 --> 02:18:46.200 hot beds. You know, we flipped it with the Obama administration too. 1540 02:18:46.319 --> 02:18:52.440 Let's go to these places that you know are stable but not not sort of 1541 02:18:52.440 --> 02:18:56.000 our definition of stable or the way we want them to be stable and make 1542 02:18:56.040 --> 02:19:03.200 them unstable and then and then we've got the same issues. Yeah, it's 1543 02:19:01.600 --> 02:19:11.600 our foreign policy. I think throughout history has been just very misguided. You 1544 02:19:11.600 --> 02:19:18.200 know. I feel like in World War One and World War Two, we 1545 02:19:18.360 --> 02:19:20.440 understood, like we understood what need to be. If you break it, 1546 02:19:20.479 --> 02:19:26.159 you buy it, and then you said it right, and and since then 1547 02:19:26.200 --> 02:19:33.959 we've just been kind of this half, you know, toes in until we 1548 02:19:33.959 --> 02:19:37.719 we decide that it's too cold, let's back out, leave it to it 1549 02:19:37.799 --> 02:19:41.319 to themselves. That might almost be like not the worst thing in the world 1550 02:19:41.319 --> 02:19:43.159 to like see like, well, who's gonna win and then we'll bat But 1551 02:19:43.239 --> 02:19:46.879 instead it's like we kind of go all in and it turns into a big 1552 02:19:46.920 --> 02:19:52.120 shit show. I think last time I had mentioned that I had an argument 1553 02:19:52.159 --> 02:19:56.280 with a Taliban guy. Before that, I was seeing this guy and he 1554 02:19:56.440 --> 02:19:58.719 was really pissed with me, and he said, you know, in the 1555 02:19:58.760 --> 02:20:05.239 a these we work together and we defeated the Russians, and then you abandon 1556 02:20:05.399 --> 02:20:11.200 us, so now you're here fighting us. It's not our fault you abandon 1557 02:20:11.360 --> 02:20:15.879 us. And I said, yeah, but that's America. Yeah, right, 1558 02:20:16.239 --> 02:20:20.040 just you know, if you if it's China, okay, you got 1559 02:20:20.040 --> 02:20:24.319 a twenty five year and a fifty year plan. But in America we have 1560 02:20:24.440 --> 02:20:30.719 a four year or eight year plan. Yeah, and we're That's just the 1561 02:20:30.760 --> 02:20:35.239 way it is America, and honestly, we shouldn't apologize for it. And 1562 02:20:37.399 --> 02:20:46.760 I have come to think that the way American politics is the way our society 1563 02:20:46.879 --> 02:20:52.799 runs, and and and I'd say politics, but it's politics as it affects 1564 02:20:52.440 --> 02:21:00.639 our national defense strategy, that we would be better off at a opting a 1565 02:21:00.760 --> 02:21:09.479 more a stance, more like Israel does, which is to tolerate x amount 1566 02:21:09.719 --> 02:21:20.319 of punishment or aggression, and then when it reaches a certain point, we're 1567 02:21:20.399 --> 02:21:24.079 gathering intelligence and we're doing that, we're gonna go and we're gonna make a 1568 02:21:24.159 --> 02:21:31.440 strike and we're gonna decimate some centers and disrupt and set you back, and 1569 02:21:31.479 --> 02:21:33.840 then we're pulling out. Now, we're not going to fix your country. 1570 02:21:33.879 --> 02:21:37.920 We're not going to try to stabilize it, we're not going to try to 1571 02:21:37.959 --> 02:21:41.399 rebuild it, we're not going to try to do any of this. It's 1572 02:21:41.440 --> 02:21:52.159 really punitive and disruptive. But then you don't wind up in the twenty year 1573 02:21:52.159 --> 02:21:56.879 conflict and you we're in right now with Niger and the coups happening, and 1574 02:21:56.879 --> 02:22:00.879 we have a couple of drone bases there that we I don't want to maintain, 1575 02:22:01.040 --> 02:22:05.000 and yeah, it becomes a foreign entanglement. What right we are? 1576 02:22:05.040 --> 02:22:09.159 Wrong? Way? But I mean we keep doing it. Yeah, So 1577 02:22:11.079 --> 02:22:13.799 towards the end of your time at the agency, you had a senior ops 1578 02:22:13.879 --> 02:22:16.719 job. I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but what 1579 02:22:16.760 --> 02:22:20.680 can you say about that? So, you know, I think I made, 1580 02:22:24.639 --> 02:22:28.760 you know, with the agency a lot of things going on. I 1581 02:22:28.799 --> 02:22:37.399 think religiously, I was being pushed. My faith was pushing me towards things 1582 02:22:37.440 --> 02:22:45.639 that were unsettling me. And I became discouraged after I had some success on 1583 02:22:45.719 --> 02:22:52.719 some pretty high level operations in the agency. You know, That's where I 1584 02:22:52.799 --> 02:22:58.479 started really seeing what the folks in the National Security Council and at the from 1585 02:22:58.479 --> 02:23:01.280 the White House and the Department are saying. And I'm up on, you 1586 02:23:01.319 --> 02:23:09.639 know, in briefs on the seventh floor and and I'm like, it's not 1587 02:23:11.079 --> 02:23:15.479 What was that conflict for you? Was that a question of like the truth 1588 02:23:15.600 --> 02:23:18.319 isn't being told? Or was it a question of like your morality feeling like 1589 02:23:18.319 --> 02:23:22.040 it was well, I would say it's some of both. I think the 1590 02:23:22.040 --> 02:23:30.440 morality part was more maybe personal, and that I was a person very focused 1591 02:23:30.440 --> 02:23:35.799 on getting a mission done, so I believe the I would do whatever it 1592 02:23:35.879 --> 02:23:41.600 took to get a mission accomplished. Now that sometimes came into conflict with who 1593 02:23:41.799 --> 02:23:48.760 I believed I was on the inside and spiritually. And there comes a point 1594 02:23:48.799 --> 02:23:52.840 where you've if you've lived that life for so long, that you've become in 1595 02:23:52.959 --> 02:24:01.600 so much conflict with yourself. It starts manifesting itself and emotional, mental, 1596 02:24:03.639 --> 02:24:09.879 physical as that outreach. But then for me, just the hypocrisy of it 1597 02:24:09.959 --> 02:24:16.920 all that we all want to believe that we're doing the nation's work, we're 1598 02:24:16.959 --> 02:24:22.840 defending the people were there, and we're willing to give our lives for our 1599 02:24:24.200 --> 02:24:33.879 fellow citizen. And then when you start seeing that the weight or impact that 1600 02:24:35.079 --> 02:24:43.159 politics has over that, and when you see lives lost, and some of 1601 02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:52.559 that may the root cause of that may have been political or personal professional and 1602 02:24:52.799 --> 02:24:58.479 you know greed or you know desire to get ahead reasons. It starts. 1603 02:25:00.000 --> 02:25:03.719 It's not a good feeling bad right, Like I ate that steak, but 1604 02:25:03.520 --> 02:25:11.399 damn it was something wrong with it, so that you know that that all 1605 02:25:11.440 --> 02:25:16.920 started having its impact on me. And you know, I was in this 1606 02:25:16.040 --> 02:25:22.760 job where you know, I came back from this country. I thought, 1607 02:25:22.879 --> 02:25:28.280 yeah, I think I'm gonna look at something different. So I took a 1608 02:25:28.360 --> 02:25:33.280 job that was a senior leadership job. It was the ops officer for a 1609 02:25:33.360 --> 02:25:39.159 group uh in the agency. But but it was not it was not one 1610 02:25:39.200 --> 02:25:46.120 of those get ahead political jobs that you need to have to move to the 1611 02:25:46.200 --> 02:25:52.440 senior levels in the agency. And I, you know, a lot of 1612 02:25:52.479 --> 02:25:58.399 friends said, why aren't you doing this, because like all my buddies and 1613 02:25:58.479 --> 02:26:05.799 people at I'd done some stuff with We're in really key positions in the agency, 1614 02:26:07.360 --> 02:26:11.959 and so you're doing this And I was like, yeah, because I'm 1615 02:26:11.959 --> 02:26:16.680 doing it because I got a change. And you know, I think I 1616 02:26:16.799 --> 02:26:22.600 knew that I wanted to get out, but I sort of needed some time 1617 02:26:22.600 --> 02:26:26.479 and space to do that. Also, like moving a little bit away from 1618 02:26:26.479 --> 02:26:30.600 the kinetic operations. Yeah, for me, yeah, I'd been in super 1619 02:26:30.680 --> 02:26:33.680 high stress. Now it's it changed. I was in operational stress, either 1620 02:26:33.799 --> 02:26:43.079 from being undercover or chasing a significant target and having everybody in the from the 1621 02:26:43.120 --> 02:26:52.520 president down in my business every day that that you know, super high stress 1622 02:26:52.719 --> 02:26:56.879 too. Now it shifted where I guess I took that energy and focused it 1623 02:26:56.959 --> 02:27:05.159 back on the leadership of this group that was hurting. The agency does not 1624 02:27:05.280 --> 02:27:13.479 develop doing a good job developing leaders And I went back to the basic leadership 1625 02:27:13.280 --> 02:27:18.600 that I learned as a Marine officer, and I felt I was making an 1626 02:27:18.680 --> 02:27:24.360 impact. There were you weren't using CS on them though when they weren't, 1627 02:27:24.600 --> 02:27:30.360 I know I didn't. I didn't use CS and I did. I would 1628 02:27:30.399 --> 02:27:35.600 like to say that it was a hard and long learning curve for me, 1629 02:27:35.639 --> 02:27:41.799 but I think I did eventually learn. And uh so, you know, 1630 02:27:41.879 --> 02:27:48.760 I just focused on the leadership thing, and but I kind of used that 1631 02:27:48.799 --> 02:27:54.760 time to to start thinking about there's got to be something different as as somebody 1632 02:27:54.760 --> 02:28:01.479 who you know had a pretty illustrious and unique career in the military. I 1633 02:28:01.479 --> 02:28:03.879 mean, you were an officer, then you went enlisted, and then you 1634 02:28:03.879 --> 02:28:07.120 know, you were in the agency, and you saw sort of both sides 1635 02:28:07.159 --> 02:28:13.680 of that. Do you we like I get the impression, I don't want 1636 02:28:13.719 --> 02:28:16.799 to speak for Jack, I get the impression that it's very hard to move 1637 02:28:16.559 --> 02:28:22.559 into the general officer arena or the sis arena without I don't want to say 1638 02:28:22.600 --> 02:28:28.760 selling your soul, but without becoming a sort of a spoke in the wheel. 1639 02:28:30.520 --> 02:28:33.920 If it were you know that that play the game, that you have 1640 02:28:33.000 --> 02:28:39.840 to make certain compromises, would you say that's true? Or would you say 1641 02:28:39.879 --> 02:28:43.959 that my impression is false? Like what was you? Because you have a 1642 02:28:43.959 --> 02:28:54.680 lot more persiand knowledge than I ever would on this, you know, so 1643 02:28:54.479 --> 02:29:00.239 I would say a that that is true, there are compromises. Is that 1644 02:29:00.360 --> 02:29:07.239 much be reached? But I think my life experience says that you know, 1645 02:29:07.920 --> 02:29:16.840 it is this constant give and take between close end focus and a wider focus. 1646 02:29:16.920 --> 02:29:22.479 When I was a young lieutenant, my focus was like this, and 1647 02:29:22.559 --> 02:29:26.760 that's what Marine Corps wanted from me. My focus is like that. Then 1648 02:29:26.879 --> 02:29:31.479 you start getting more senior, you start looking wider. You know, as 1649 02:29:31.479 --> 02:29:39.079 a platoon commander, there were times I ordered my people to do certain things 1650 02:29:39.200 --> 02:29:43.479 or adhere to certain things, and sometimes I did not really believe in what 1651 02:29:43.520 --> 02:29:48.280 I ordered them to do, but I was ordered to do that, and 1652 02:29:50.440 --> 02:30:00.719 so my vision went wider. And then, through either your seniority you rise 1653 02:30:01.040 --> 02:30:07.360 in authority and rank, you have to have that wider vision that a leader 1654 02:30:07.840 --> 02:30:13.239 has to see not just what needs to be focused on, but what's to 1655 02:30:13.280 --> 02:30:18.120 the left and right and what's over the horizon. That worked for me in 1656 02:30:18.559 --> 02:30:24.520 Yemen, and it's worked for me in some other places. The I think 1657 02:30:24.520 --> 02:30:28.959 the challenge of senior officers is that you can get so focused on that wide 1658 02:30:30.040 --> 02:30:35.200 thing that then when something key comes up that needs to be narrowly focused on, 1659 02:30:35.239 --> 02:30:41.440 you might miss that and it's like do we have That's where I feel 1660 02:30:41.559 --> 02:30:46.319 like a lot of foreign militaries and places like the agency fall short, is 1661 02:30:46.360 --> 02:30:54.799 that there's not enough development and that nco lower level leadership thing where that these 1662 02:30:54.840 --> 02:31:00.719 people can leave it to them and trust them like you know, uh, 1663 02:31:00.920 --> 02:31:07.120 you know in a delta squadron, that troop that's gonna do this part of 1664 02:31:07.159 --> 02:31:11.159 that hit, they got it, you know, And this troop's going to 1665 02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:16.879 make that assaultant aircraft that that that's it. You know, officer, you 1666 02:31:16.920 --> 02:31:20.799 can come under this aircraft after we clear it and tell you to come up, 1667 02:31:22.440 --> 02:31:28.200 and and that's you know, we need that wide view of leadership, 1668 02:31:28.920 --> 02:31:33.600 but you also have to have it tied to here. And uh, I 1669 02:31:33.639 --> 02:31:43.239 think that's that's the the challenge for senior officers, you know, And and 1670 02:31:43.799 --> 02:31:46.399 you know, God help them. There's some that do a damn good job 1671 02:31:46.440 --> 02:31:52.319 of that and there's some that that don't. And I feel, you know, 1672 02:31:54.159 --> 02:31:58.399 I can say, you know, I personally don't think that people in 1673 02:31:58.559 --> 02:32:05.399 charge now do that. I think they've sold their souls to the political side. 1674 02:32:05.760 --> 02:32:09.399 And you know, one of the things that we wanted to ask you 1675 02:32:09.440 --> 02:32:13.079 about, and I think you wanted to talk about a bit, was with 1676 02:32:13.239 --> 02:32:16.280 that you just touched upon, was, you know, some of the key 1677 02:32:16.319 --> 02:32:22.239 takeaways from your experience across the Marines, the Army, Central Intelligence Agency, 1678 02:32:22.520 --> 02:32:26.520 you know, even philosophically speaking, What were some of the big things that 1679 02:32:26.520 --> 02:32:30.920 you came away from that experience with that you don't have to share with people. 1680 02:32:31.760 --> 02:32:37.000 For me, one of the things is lessons I think I learned. 1681 02:32:37.040 --> 02:32:41.799 It was about judging people. Again, we mentioned earlier that when you're younger, 1682 02:32:41.079 --> 02:32:46.280 everything's black and white, and I think I used to make pretty snapped 1683 02:32:46.440 --> 02:32:52.200 judgments about people. I think my first lesson that that might not be the 1684 02:32:52.280 --> 02:33:00.639 right approach was as a Marine officer. I had a guy in my first 1685 02:33:00.719 --> 02:33:07.479 infantry platoon who was overweighted. Now we're talking to the eighties, right, 1686 02:33:07.520 --> 02:33:09.399 and he parted his hair in the middle. Now, you know, in 1687 02:33:09.479 --> 02:33:13.399 the eighties, if a guy parts his hair in the middle, he's a 1688 02:33:13.399 --> 02:33:18.600 doper. And I mean that's how you know he parts his hair in the 1689 02:33:18.600 --> 02:33:22.639 middle, he's a guy to be a doper. And and he was a 1690 02:33:22.680 --> 02:33:26.879 little overweighted, and he just wasn't that image of the marine. Yeah, 1691 02:33:28.520 --> 02:33:35.479 and he was a problem at guy, always gotten trouble and getting arrested. 1692 02:33:35.639 --> 02:33:37.479 And this I, you know, had to go down to the jail and 1693 02:33:37.520 --> 02:33:43.600 see him a few times, and you know, so I made certain judgments 1694 02:33:43.680 --> 02:33:48.680 about him, and I put him on my list of I'm going to do 1695 02:33:48.799 --> 02:33:54.760 my best to get this guy out. But then I looked into his record 1696 02:33:54.840 --> 02:33:58.680 and I'm like, hey, well this guy, you know, his first 1697 02:33:58.719 --> 02:34:05.239 assignment is in Okinawa and he goes into a burning laundromat and saves some old 1698 02:34:05.280 --> 02:34:11.440 Okinawan woman that was watching people's clothes in there and out, you know, 1699 02:34:11.520 --> 02:34:16.239 and he gets some award for that. And I'm like, wait a minute, 1700 02:34:18.040 --> 02:34:22.959 here's this and here's that. And then my young in my youth, 1701 02:34:22.840 --> 02:34:28.079 I thought those two things can't go together. You have to be the squared 1702 02:34:28.120 --> 02:34:35.120 away guy. That's that's strack and and this way to be that, and 1703 02:34:35.159 --> 02:34:43.120 then you know, I had to reevaluate my assessment of this young guy. 1704 02:34:43.639 --> 02:34:48.520 And you know, I remember calling him in and saying like, hey, 1705 02:34:48.559 --> 02:34:54.280 I read this about who are you? Because here's what I see, but 1706 02:34:54.520 --> 02:35:00.159 who are you? And then I learned he just didn't fit that mold or 1707 02:35:00.440 --> 02:35:05.280 think the way I thought. So I gave him some kind of like kind 1708 02:35:05.280 --> 02:35:13.440 of admin duties and stuff and quit expecting what I thought I should out of 1709 02:35:13.440 --> 02:35:20.959 a young hardcore charging marine and he performed well, and I was like, 1710 02:35:22.559 --> 02:35:26.600 wow, I didn't know that. And then if you go forward a bunch 1711 02:35:26.639 --> 02:35:33.680 of years later to being me being kicked out of Delta and having to go 1712 02:35:33.799 --> 02:35:39.920 places or want, you know, explain myself and my career to other people 1713 02:35:39.959 --> 02:35:48.280 that I want to to trust me and and and give me jobs, that 1714 02:35:48.360 --> 02:35:52.399 I was like, wow, you know, I really hope people don't judge 1715 02:35:52.440 --> 02:35:58.719 you just parts of their hair in the middle. Yeah, as the guy 1716 02:35:58.799 --> 02:36:00.879 that parts the hair in the middle. I just want to say that in 1717 02:36:00.920 --> 02:36:03.040 the eighties, front of you here in the middle and feathering was very fashionable. 1718 02:36:03.239 --> 02:36:07.600 I'm I'm not saying there are any photos of me like that going around. 1719 02:36:07.000 --> 02:36:13.040 I'm just saying it was fashionable and it may it may have been, 1720 02:36:13.440 --> 02:36:18.360 but but it's young marine. Yeah, So you know, I think that 1721 02:36:18.520 --> 02:36:26.200 was a big thing for me. The other thing was, you know, 1722 02:36:26.399 --> 02:36:33.000 just different different perspectives, like, I'm lucky enough to be here with you 1723 02:36:33.079 --> 02:36:39.639 guys and telling my story. But there are tens of thousands of people and 1724 02:36:39.719 --> 02:36:46.920 they all have those stories, and they may be different in the detail and 1725 02:36:48.000 --> 02:36:52.159 the location, but their stories. And we're in the military, right, 1726 02:36:52.200 --> 02:36:58.959 so we're we all got a really focused life experience for whatever number a year 1727 02:37:01.079 --> 02:37:11.559 in some peculiar incubators, and but we're no better. There's no delta operator 1728 02:37:11.079 --> 02:37:18.440 that's any better than any cook in the army. Different job, different motivations, 1729 02:37:18.520 --> 02:37:24.000 different drivers, but if both do their job well, that man is 1730 02:37:24.040 --> 02:37:30.040 no better than the other man. And those of us in the military or 1731 02:37:30.239 --> 02:37:39.479 intelligence agencies who have been fortunate enough to go forth and live these dreams and 1732 02:37:39.559 --> 02:37:46.879 these these adventures, but what about the people back here that are sitting at 1733 02:37:46.920 --> 02:37:52.440 home working in the factory. They're really no different than we're no better than 1734 02:37:52.479 --> 02:38:01.600 them. And I think sometimes we can close ranks about what we've done and 1735 02:38:01.639 --> 02:38:05.200 who we are and say that other people aren't the same as us. They 1736 02:38:05.200 --> 02:38:09.680 don't know, they haven't lived it, so they're not there to speed. 1737 02:38:11.000 --> 02:38:16.440 Yeah, yeah, and yeah that's true. But you know, when when 1738 02:38:16.520 --> 02:38:20.840 I first you know, I think in the first episode, I talked about 1739 02:38:20.120 --> 02:38:26.840 my rural background, my family, and when I was traveling around the world 1740 02:38:26.879 --> 02:38:31.239 and seeing the sights of the world, and I've been to the Great Buddha, 1741 02:38:31.280 --> 02:38:35.319 I've been to Shinto shrines, I've been to some of the biggest things 1742 02:38:35.559 --> 02:38:41.479 sites that a person should see, and and thought, wow, how fortunate 1743 02:38:41.479 --> 02:38:48.440 am I and how disadvantaged are my relatives that are living back in you know, 1744 02:38:48.559 --> 02:38:58.559 Stony Point or Taylorsville or Hickory, North Carolina, and that I'm really 1745 02:38:58.600 --> 02:39:01.959 seeing the world as it is. Then I but eventually I realized, no, 1746 02:39:03.319 --> 02:39:07.479 you know, they have lives, they have family, they have church, 1747 02:39:07.559 --> 02:39:13.600 they have community, they're happy, they're contributing to life. My life 1748 02:39:13.719 --> 02:39:16.479 is really you know, in some ways my life is different, but in 1749 02:39:16.520 --> 02:39:22.120 some ways it's not as good as theirs. You know, the person I 1750 02:39:22.239 --> 02:39:26.440 admired the most is my brother, who never started a day in the military. 1751 02:39:28.079 --> 02:39:35.079 He's been a great family guy, worked for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, 1752 02:39:35.840 --> 02:39:41.639 been a pharmaceutical salesman for a lot of years, never did any of 1753 02:39:41.680 --> 02:39:48.079 the things that I did. But you know, you know, I feel 1754 02:39:48.200 --> 02:39:52.760 very privileged to be where we are and the brotherhood that we're in. But 1755 02:39:54.040 --> 02:39:58.319 you know, I don't think it's it's any better than other people. Is 1756 02:39:58.360 --> 02:40:03.600 different, and it's fortunately we don't see those guys, and there's no podcast 1757 02:40:03.680 --> 02:40:09.319 focusing on this, right not right. I think that and we've talked about 1758 02:40:09.319 --> 02:40:13.040 this for I think one of the things that you know, people in our 1759 02:40:13.360 --> 02:40:18.600 field have to admit, is it there there was an amount of selfishness to 1760 02:40:18.639 --> 02:40:24.479 our lives that we we were doing exactly what we wanted to do, and 1761 02:40:24.479 --> 02:40:28.879 we left family, We left people behind, with wives behind, some of 1762 02:40:28.879 --> 02:40:33.639 the left kids behind, Like we left people behind to go do Like we 1763 02:40:33.680 --> 02:40:37.079 can say it was all for the service and was all for the count, 1764 02:40:37.399 --> 02:40:41.719 and it was but for us, but but we also did it for us, 1765 02:40:41.760 --> 02:40:46.600 like we all either grew up wanting to do this or at some point, 1766 02:40:46.840 --> 02:40:50.319 you know, some way alongline, decided we wanted this life of high 1767 02:40:50.399 --> 02:40:54.920 adventure or whatever, and we did it. And it's like you could look 1768 02:40:54.920 --> 02:40:56.520 at Lewis and Clark and say, yeah, you know, they did these 1769 02:40:56.520 --> 02:41:01.719 things by exploring the States. But they also wanted to do that, like 1770 02:41:01.760 --> 02:41:07.479 they weren't nobody compelled them to do that. And and so you know, 1771 02:41:07.600 --> 02:41:15.440 and one when you're talking about people in the conventional military or parts the agencies, 1772 02:41:15.559 --> 02:41:18.159 in the intelligence community, the logs people, the cooks, the mechanics, 1773 02:41:18.399 --> 02:41:22.360 the people that don't get any credit but were especially like out in Afghanistan 1774 02:41:22.360 --> 02:41:26.479 and Iraq. They were out there working in a one hundred ten degree weather. 1775 02:41:26.719 --> 02:41:28.959 Or cooks who like get up at three in the morning to start food 1776 02:41:28.959 --> 02:41:35.719 prep, like nobody appreciates them, but but they work their asses off, 1777 02:41:35.280 --> 02:41:39.760 you know, mechanics out there fixing vehicles in Iraq. Nobody wants to be 1778 02:41:39.840 --> 02:41:45.120 that person the air conditioning Yeah. Good guy, Yeah, a good guy. 1779 02:41:45.120 --> 02:41:50.799 I like him. Yeah. And they were every bit as as you 1780 02:41:50.799 --> 02:41:54.879 know, as significant to the war effort. And then even outside the military, 1781 02:41:56.120 --> 02:42:00.319 you're right, like people who are grounded and who have roots in who 1782 02:42:00.399 --> 02:42:05.079 have just dedicated their lives to their families and to their careers and to their 1783 02:42:05.079 --> 02:42:09.840 community. Like there's no superiority that I think the people from the military and 1784 02:42:09.840 --> 02:42:18.360 the special operations community can like ward over we we we chose our paths just 1785 02:42:18.479 --> 02:42:22.719 like they choose their past, and no neither path is superior to the other. 1786 02:42:24.760 --> 02:42:28.000 I think our stories are generally more fun, you know what I mean, 1787 02:42:28.360 --> 02:42:31.799 they're they're they're different, you know if you like, have you ever 1788 02:42:31.840 --> 02:42:35.840 like when I went to the agency, you know, you try to blend 1789 02:42:35.920 --> 02:42:39.440 in. Okay, So I was a little bit older than most of the 1790 02:42:39.479 --> 02:42:43.559 people I was around, and people are sitting around telling stories, and you 1791 02:42:43.559 --> 02:42:48.520 know, eventually, like I generally asked the quiet, but eventually you wouldn't 1792 02:42:48.559 --> 02:42:56.280 tell a story. So here's people telling stories about this time where I was 1793 02:42:56.360 --> 02:43:00.639 doing this where I was almost scared to death and all that, and then 1794 02:43:01.040 --> 02:43:03.040 so like then they turn to you, so you won't tell a story. 1795 02:43:03.159 --> 02:43:07.600 So you tell a story about somebody dying on a free fall, like or 1796 02:43:07.639 --> 02:43:11.079 somebody splatting on a free fall accident, or don't like that, and then 1797 02:43:11.079 --> 02:43:18.079 they all go and then you realize and everybody just shuts up. Yeah, 1798 02:43:18.120 --> 02:43:20.959 and it's like and then like, here's another subject. Well, well one 1799 02:43:22.000 --> 02:43:26.120 time, you know, I did this thing with these women, and you're 1800 02:43:26.159 --> 02:43:31.440 like, yeah, well one time, and then like and everybody it then't 1801 02:43:31.479 --> 02:43:39.600 after a while you're like, yeah, it's like it's like, but but 1802 02:43:39.600 --> 02:43:43.120 it's that context thing. It's like people tell these stories but like, well, 1803 02:43:43.200 --> 02:43:50.079 okay, maybe not everybody came into contact with dead bodies and other things, 1804 02:43:52.600 --> 02:43:56.120 and so it's like, yeah, yeah, you have to learn to 1805 02:43:56.239 --> 02:44:03.559 like yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's uh that's come 1806 02:44:03.760 --> 02:44:07.280 into cont A lot of people have learned when they get out of the military. 1807 02:44:07.440 --> 02:44:13.200 Is it your stories are not like the same? Yeah? Literally, 1808 02:44:13.360 --> 02:44:16.479 like you really need to read the wrong But that goes with the other. 1809 02:44:16.200 --> 02:44:22.639 I'm curious as to your two transitions. Like for me, I was so 1810 02:44:22.760 --> 02:44:26.479 mission focused and and let's be honest, my when I went to Asot was 1811 02:44:26.600 --> 02:44:31.959 right after my first wife left me and took off with my kids, and 1812 02:44:31.200 --> 02:44:37.239 uh, I was I was not in a good place right, So adventure, 1813 02:44:37.360 --> 02:44:43.079 excitement and all these other things come my way, and it's a way 1814 02:44:43.120 --> 02:44:48.280 of putting all that behind me. I was mission focused for from nineteen ninety 1815 02:44:48.360 --> 02:44:58.360 eight until two thousand eleven. I was just mission, mission, mission mission. 1816 02:44:58.760 --> 02:45:03.120 I would go to a place and I would focus my life on that 1817 02:45:03.200 --> 02:45:07.479 mission, and I would live that mission, and I don't care what happens 1818 02:45:07.520 --> 02:45:13.600 back home. I've given my parents power of attorney whatever happened, happens, 1819 02:45:13.639 --> 02:45:22.479 and I'm just here to do this mission and I was successful. And then 1820 02:45:22.600 --> 02:45:28.079 in the government I got in the agency, I continued being successful. But 1821 02:45:28.159 --> 02:45:33.440 it's like, Okay, I can write a proposal and get funded for this, 1822 02:45:33.920 --> 02:45:39.879 and in the government, given permission, authority and money, I can 1823 02:45:39.920 --> 02:45:46.479 make all kind of things happen, really successful, good things. When I 1824 02:45:46.559 --> 02:45:52.319 left the agency, I thought, I just apply that same focus to civilian 1825 02:45:52.440 --> 02:45:58.520 life and I'm going to be successful. And I was like, and that's 1826 02:45:58.639 --> 02:46:07.280 not the way it has worked for me. And I'm used to life doesn't 1827 02:46:07.319 --> 02:46:11.799 matter mission and then well, I think the struggle I've had over the last 1828 02:46:13.559 --> 02:46:18.239 but seven eight years after leaving the agency is that, Wow, it's not 1829 02:46:20.200 --> 02:46:30.799 the mission and end result isn't as important as that daily grind, routine and 1830 02:46:31.000 --> 02:46:33.280 process. And it's like, wait, I'm never a processed person. I'm 1831 02:46:33.319 --> 02:46:39.520 a mission focused, results oriented person and I'll do this And it's like, 1832 02:46:39.600 --> 02:46:43.920 yeah, well, you know what I know. And you also have time 1833 02:46:43.920 --> 02:46:46.680 to fill your life with something the whole rest of your life. And it's 1834 02:46:46.719 --> 02:46:48.280 like, what does that consist of? Yeah, well, and for me, 1835 02:46:48.600 --> 02:46:50.799 you know, to be honest, at this point, some of that 1836 02:46:52.000 --> 02:46:58.680 is cooking and cleaning and shopping and real trying to establish a business and doing 1837 02:46:58.719 --> 02:47:01.799 this and that and all the other things and taking care of the dog and 1838 02:47:01.840 --> 02:47:03.959 all that stuff, and it is like, you know, and and to 1839 02:47:05.000 --> 02:47:07.879 be honest, for years, it's like, ah, I'm crazy because I 1840 02:47:07.920 --> 02:47:13.319 need to focus on a mission. Yeah, and like how I do it? 1841 02:47:13.360 --> 02:47:16.159 Like this, I gotta stop, you know, Yeah, And it's 1842 02:47:16.280 --> 02:47:22.879 it's a hard, hard transition. And I think some of the issues we 1843 02:47:22.920 --> 02:47:33.719 have with PTSD and the suicide rate for veterans is is tied in some respects 1844 02:47:33.760 --> 02:47:35.680 to that. You know, I agree with you, Like I don't. 1845 02:47:37.079 --> 02:47:43.000 I don't even know if, like if we can split between TBIES and post 1846 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:48.680 traumatic stress and then the lack of purpose and mission, Like I don't even 1847 02:47:48.760 --> 02:47:54.159 know how those threads can be entangled to say what is post traumatic stress? 1848 02:47:54.680 --> 02:47:58.760 But some they've called it the operator syndromes, the combination of PTSD and t 1849 02:48:00.079 --> 02:48:03.559 B I. But but also, but again, like you say, there's 1850 02:48:03.639 --> 02:48:09.200 also that existential thing of even if I find a mission, even if I 1851 02:48:09.239 --> 02:48:13.280 find a purpose and something like that, the stakes are so much lower, 1852 02:48:15.000 --> 02:48:20.239 Right, how do I how do I care about something where the stakes are 1853 02:48:20.280 --> 02:48:26.200 so low, you know, you see and and not in look like human 1854 02:48:26.319 --> 02:48:31.600 suffering is all relevant. So it's not to say when you're under heavy fire 1855 02:48:31.920 --> 02:48:37.319 that that somebody undergoing office drama that they're not feeling the same stress levels because 1856 02:48:37.559 --> 02:48:41.520 there's almost there's only so much stress we can feel. And I had those 1857 02:48:41.520 --> 02:48:48.120 of the agency that you know people I supervise that and you know, and 1858 02:48:48.159 --> 02:48:56.319 it was hard for me. Yeah, it's hard to relate and you're okay, 1859 02:48:56.520 --> 02:49:00.000 yeah, it's it's hard to relate, and it's hard not to dismiss 1860 02:49:00.079 --> 02:49:05.120 sit, you know, because you do have to have that empathy to realize 1861 02:49:05.120 --> 02:49:09.799 it. It looked just because their life is an online doesn't mean that they 1862 02:49:09.879 --> 02:49:15.639 don't feel like distress and things like that. But yeah, I agree with 1863 02:49:15.680 --> 02:49:18.280 you, like, but there there is an element, I believe, and 1864 02:49:20.000 --> 02:49:26.440 I certainly don't want to be misinterpreted or to come across as as implying that 1865 02:49:30.280 --> 02:49:37.680 there's an ego factor to PTSD. But but there's a thing of and I 1866 02:49:37.760 --> 02:49:41.639 get this from former Marines they you know, before combat, you know, 1867 02:49:41.719 --> 02:49:46.799 back recon Marines. I know that that was my life. That was when 1868 02:49:46.840 --> 02:49:48.639 I was my best best, That was when I was who I was, 1869 02:49:48.760 --> 02:49:54.799 and that's when I met everything and nothing I've done since counts or matters, 1870 02:49:54.840 --> 02:50:03.200 and I just wish I was back there. And I think that it's and 1871 02:50:03.719 --> 02:50:11.319 particularly for people in roles that aren't maybe combat related, but that are adjunct 1872 02:50:11.680 --> 02:50:18.360 to that or close to it, participants in it, that that here I 1873 02:50:18.399 --> 02:50:24.520 am now and everything I do is valued and worthwhile and means this and now 1874 02:50:24.639 --> 02:50:31.479 after I'm this, yeah, and this is and this is who I am, 1875 02:50:31.319 --> 02:50:37.520 and that's you know, that's that's a sad thing. And and and 1876 02:50:37.559 --> 02:50:45.079 what bothers me now is that as veterans, it seems like we have taken 1877 02:50:45.120 --> 02:50:52.000 on a tenor of like almost this power of darkness, and that our service 1878 02:50:52.799 --> 02:50:58.440 needs to be couched in the damage it's done to us and and and the 1879 02:50:58.200 --> 02:51:05.959 hardships we face, and that those are real, They are real people suffering 1880 02:51:05.479 --> 02:51:11.639 every day. But what I hope that that we could do as a group 1881 02:51:11.680 --> 02:51:20.680 of veterans is to focus on the experiences I have equipped me for this world 1882 02:51:20.239 --> 02:51:33.000 that is changing, this world that faces some probable uncertainty and difficult times to 1883 02:51:33.159 --> 02:51:39.719 come. And no one is better able to face those and meet those challenges 1884 02:51:39.920 --> 02:51:46.040 than we, Based on the experiences we had, so I am not crippled 1885 02:51:46.959 --> 02:51:56.559 by my experience. I am am prepared empowered by it. Can also provide 1886 02:51:56.639 --> 02:52:01.959 like a contrast to appreciate, like our lives today. How fortunate are we 1887 02:52:01.000 --> 02:52:05.840 to live in a country like this and to be able to like raise a 1888 02:52:05.959 --> 02:52:09.120 kid in a world like this or in a country like this. Yeah, 1889 02:52:09.159 --> 02:52:13.440 and it might not be like perfect, but yeah it's pretty good. Yeah. 1890 02:52:13.719 --> 02:52:16.520 Or I might not be the guy that's out doing it, but I 1891 02:52:16.600 --> 02:52:22.479 might be the guy that's explaining this experience too much, right so that they 1892 02:52:22.559 --> 02:52:26.360 well, you're you're honestly right now you're also explaining it to other young soldiers 1893 02:52:26.840 --> 02:52:31.760 and giving them a sort of pathway. Yeah, and civilian. And you 1894 02:52:31.799 --> 02:52:35.239 know, it's interesting because you mentioned something that I don't think is like brought 1895 02:52:35.319 --> 02:52:39.239 up enough. Is that like we talk about you know, combat arms, 1896 02:52:39.399 --> 02:52:43.000 particularly special operations, but combat arms in general, like going from sixty to 1897 02:52:43.159 --> 02:52:50.840 zero into the civilian life. But if you're if you're like a cook who 1898 02:52:50.879 --> 02:52:54.120 loves your job, like a military cook who loves your job, and you 1899 02:52:54.159 --> 02:52:56.319 know the people you're cooking for, and you like you know what you're doing 1900 02:52:56.399 --> 02:53:01.799 in particularly in a combat zone, where like food is literally like it's a 1901 02:53:01.879 --> 02:53:09.520 huge it's a huge morale issue, right, or you're a mechanic out sweating 1902 02:53:09.520 --> 02:53:13.319 your ass off for a logs officer who's moving or logs person who's like moving 1903 02:53:13.360 --> 02:53:18.079 stuff constantly, and then you like and you know you're contributing to the fight, 1904 02:53:18.680 --> 02:53:20.680 even if you're at trading lead, you know, downrange or whatever, 1905 02:53:20.719 --> 02:53:24.799 but you know you're contributing the fight. And then you come out in the 1906 02:53:24.799 --> 02:53:28.639 civilian world and you have a job, like you can get into logistics or 1907 02:53:28.120 --> 02:53:33.440 into the culinary field or whatever. Does it Does it have the same feeling 1908 02:53:33.520 --> 02:53:37.000 for somebody who's cooking for a restaurant, you know what I mean? It 1909 02:53:37.079 --> 02:53:39.879 has something, there's something there. But but but the thing is, is 1910 02:53:39.920 --> 02:53:41.959 it I'm sure that you know, we haven't really talked about that much, 1911 02:53:43.120 --> 02:53:46.520 but I'm sure there's something for those people too who have who have you know, 1912 02:53:46.600 --> 02:53:52.639 gone from use support roles in those environments and feeling that same purpose and 1913 02:53:52.680 --> 02:53:56.639 that same I'm given one hundred and ten percent for you know, for this 1914 02:53:56.719 --> 02:54:01.440 effort, and then I'm out and you know, you deal with the world 1915 02:54:01.559 --> 02:54:05.000 is feeling. Yeah, it's it's a challenging environment. Do we have questions? 1916 02:54:05.000 --> 02:54:09.200 For Gary? I just realized, actually real, Quicky, what are 1917 02:54:09.239 --> 02:54:13.879 you working on now? Like what's uh where are you now? And what 1918 02:54:13.920 --> 02:54:16.639 are you working on? Because you're working on some kind of exciting things right, 1919 02:54:16.239 --> 02:54:22.280 Well, I hope they're exciting. Uh. So you know, for 1920 02:54:22.319 --> 02:54:28.159 me, you know, we've been talking about our past experiences and what that 1921 02:54:28.200 --> 02:54:35.879 does for you, and and I guess I believe that it's not like why 1922 02:54:35.920 --> 02:54:39.559 did I go through the things I went through? The good things, the 1923 02:54:39.639 --> 02:54:45.000 bad things, the hardships. Uh, there are many, you know, 1924 02:54:45.280 --> 02:54:52.159 some we didn't talk about over these two podcasts and your death experiences where I 1925 02:54:52.639 --> 02:54:56.799 somehow made it through and came out, What's what's the reason for that? 1926 02:54:58.440 --> 02:55:07.040 And you know, I guess that I came to view that as that the 1927 02:55:07.120 --> 02:55:13.920 lessons I learned from those experiences. You know, we all went overseas to 1928 02:55:13.000 --> 02:55:20.479 fight against terrorists or what we perceived as bad people. Why because we wanted 1929 02:55:20.520 --> 02:55:26.319 to go over there and fight the enemies so that the people back here would 1930 02:55:26.360 --> 02:55:33.879 have a peaceful, relaxing life, so that people could be safe and have 1931 02:55:33.000 --> 02:55:43.079 peace of mind here. Well, so we all learned special skills and principles 1932 02:55:43.079 --> 02:55:48.840 and techniques to do that. But then things changed doing when we started, 1933 02:55:50.120 --> 02:55:52.239 you know, back, you know, some years ago, with a few 1934 02:55:52.479 --> 02:55:58.200 with terror attacks here, you know, I'm telling Post nine eleven, like 1935 02:55:58.319 --> 02:56:03.360 the couple that shot people and in San bernard San Bernardino and some of the 1936 02:56:03.360 --> 02:56:13.360 other terror attacks. Well, now due to changes in law enforcement and policing 1937 02:56:13.440 --> 02:56:22.200 and stuff, we have random violence. We have more acts of random attacks 1938 02:56:22.239 --> 02:56:28.479 and mass shootings and all these things. So now the things that we all 1939 02:56:28.559 --> 02:56:35.120 fought for to keep away from home, they're here, and any of our 1940 02:56:35.200 --> 02:56:41.399 loved ones are a turner two, or a neighborhood or two, or an 1941 02:56:41.399 --> 02:56:52.719 incident or two away from running into a potentially deadly conflict or action or circumstance. 1942 02:56:52.559 --> 02:57:00.280 So I started thinking that how do we take what we all earned, 1943 02:57:00.760 --> 02:57:05.559 all those principles that you learn through all your training and all your expertise and 1944 02:57:05.680 --> 02:57:13.959 techniques, and convert that over into a system or a way that families here 1945 02:57:15.879 --> 02:57:20.360 can take advantage of those you know, I think it's not just that we 1946 02:57:22.239 --> 02:57:28.920 that our society has become more violent and there's more animosity towards each other, 1947 02:57:30.600 --> 02:57:37.120 but it's also a fact that our youth are more distracted and have less learning 1948 02:57:37.159 --> 02:57:43.000 opportunities than we did. So we have, on one hand, a group 1949 02:57:43.040 --> 02:57:50.120 of potential victims our families that are less prepared, and on the other hand, 1950 02:57:50.200 --> 02:57:56.200 we have a society that is more inclined towards violence, and those two 1951 02:57:56.280 --> 02:58:05.040 interact. So what I did was trying to take the lessons and the principles 1952 02:58:05.040 --> 02:58:11.280 and techniques that I learned and developed both for myself and then later when I 1953 02:58:11.280 --> 02:58:20.920 had a family living undercover in some foreign countries to keep myself and my family 1954 02:58:20.600 --> 02:58:31.239 safe, provide for security and self sufficiency right into a system that we call 1955 02:58:31.399 --> 02:58:37.920 the Power of Prudence. So that is all those principles and techniques that we 1956 02:58:37.040 --> 02:58:46.959 learn adopted to families here, and we'll be releasing that soon a course from 1957 02:58:48.000 --> 02:58:52.799 the Power of Prudence that's called the Prudent Parenting Course. So what that does 1958 02:58:54.280 --> 02:59:01.000 is walk people like us or younger parents through the process of how to mentor 1959 02:59:01.040 --> 02:59:07.920 those same principles and some of the habits and techniques that we all know into 1960 02:59:07.959 --> 02:59:15.200 their children's daily lives so that they are more able to take care of themselves. 1961 02:59:15.520 --> 02:59:20.680 That'stic. How do you like, how do you sort of divide that 1962 02:59:20.239 --> 02:59:28.280 teaching kids prudence and being that parent from just being paranoid and worried all the 1963 02:59:28.360 --> 02:59:33.600 time about everything. You know, one of the things I teach people like 1964 02:59:33.719 --> 02:59:45.000 I travel and work with individual families and some family offices to teach these subjects. 1965 02:59:45.000 --> 02:59:46.319 And I said, no, you know, when I tell you these 1966 02:59:46.360 --> 02:59:52.159 things and I show some random attacks and stuff, I'm not saying that you 1967 02:59:52.280 --> 02:59:56.760 live your life like this looking around all the time for an attack. You 1968 02:59:56.840 --> 03:00:05.680 can't live that way forever and be saying or healthy. So you have to 1969 03:00:05.760 --> 03:00:11.360 learn when to relax and when to dial it on. But but yet some 1970 03:00:11.479 --> 03:00:16.639 of the things that we're teaching our kids, like today, Hugo and I 1971 03:00:16.719 --> 03:00:22.280 were driving up here from Virginia and we stopped at a rest stop to eat, 1972 03:00:22.680 --> 03:00:26.239 and there was a mother that had her stroller with twins in it, 1973 03:00:28.079 --> 03:00:33.040 and I would say they were maybe one and a half two years old. 1974 03:00:33.719 --> 03:00:37.479 And these twins each had identical iPads them from and they were just like like 1975 03:00:37.639 --> 03:00:46.120 this. So, you know, we we start at an early age of 1976 03:00:46.360 --> 03:00:52.559 indoctrinating our kids, pacifying our kids to be involved in this and not what's 1977 03:00:52.600 --> 03:00:58.239 around me. And part of that thing is that that you know, and 1978 03:00:58.840 --> 03:01:03.120 like, so I teach like I have two young daughters, they're now fourteen 1979 03:01:03.200 --> 03:01:09.600 and twelve. That Hey, when we go to a public place, here's 1980 03:01:09.639 --> 03:01:13.719 our checklist we always do when we as we settle, let's look for exits. 1981 03:01:15.680 --> 03:01:18.440 Here's the exit we came in, were alternate exits. Next thing we 1982 03:01:18.479 --> 03:01:22.920 look for is cover. Here's what cover is is something that protects you from 1983 03:01:22.959 --> 03:01:28.520 bullets or projectiles. So here's what cover is, and here's what cover isn't. 1984 03:01:28.440 --> 03:01:33.000 And then we look for concealment. So what happens if something bad happens. 1985 03:01:33.239 --> 03:01:39.280 We're moving towards that exit, but we're using cover and concealment to get 1986 03:01:39.319 --> 03:01:43.479 to that exit to get out. And then I you know, it just 1987 03:01:43.559 --> 03:01:50.440 progressives. You teach them more, and you know, those are the things 1988 03:01:50.200 --> 03:01:58.920 you know that maybe a generation or two ago, we're inherent in people's lives, 1989 03:01:58.760 --> 03:02:05.399 but now our society became so reliant on somebody else taking care of our 1990 03:02:05.440 --> 03:02:11.120 safety and security that now that that's crumbling or falling apart, we're not We're 1991 03:02:11.159 --> 03:02:15.559 not prepared. So yeah, we're are people going to be able to find 1992 03:02:15.559 --> 03:02:18.680 these courses? Well, one of the places they're going to be able to 1993 03:02:18.719 --> 03:02:26.360 find it is through you. Okay, and we're gonna offer your listeners a 1994 03:02:26.879 --> 03:02:35.040 discount to be able to pre buy this course. I haven't. Finally we 1995 03:02:35.159 --> 03:02:41.159 have the course finished and most of it finally edited, and it will be 1996 03:02:41.159 --> 03:02:46.159 coming out in a couple of weeks. But you know, we want to 1997 03:02:46.200 --> 03:02:52.120 offer that to your listeners first, and then we will, you know, 1998 03:02:52.280 --> 03:03:00.159 offer this course called the Prudent Parenting Course for sale and the other the so 1999 03:03:00.520 --> 03:03:05.639 at Gary Harrington dot net. They can find the Power of Prudence right, 2000 03:03:05.040 --> 03:03:09.120 Uh, like they can find you there and some of your stuff there. 2001 03:03:09.159 --> 03:03:15.760 But Parenting with Prudence is a prudent parenting course where parents will come out and 2002 03:03:15.840 --> 03:03:20.559 I haven't we we haven't really put that out on social media yet and uh, 2003 03:03:20.559 --> 03:03:26.200 but yes, that will be coming out in the next few weeks. 2004 03:03:26.200 --> 03:03:31.360 Fantastic. Let's hear cool questions. I did see one question or like, 2005 03:03:31.399 --> 03:03:35.600 we can't watch the chat, but I saw somebody ask something that sounded like 2006 03:03:35.680 --> 03:03:41.200 an inside baseball question because they wanted us to ask those They wanted us to 2007 03:03:41.239 --> 03:03:45.120 ask you if a hot dog was a sandwich? Is a hot dog of 2008 03:03:45.200 --> 03:03:48.799 sandwich? Yeah? Is that not a Is that not an inside Maybe they 2009 03:03:48.799 --> 03:03:52.120 were just I figured that was an inside thing. You know, I don't 2010 03:03:52.200 --> 03:03:56.879 know what a question, but I'm gonna say no for my personal opinion. 2011 03:03:58.040 --> 03:04:03.559 Yeah, but because explain your reasons scary. I think my reasons and and 2012 03:04:03.559 --> 03:04:09.159 and God help me. I'm I'm sorry to all my friends out there who 2013 03:04:09.200 --> 03:04:13.920 know me as a nice person. You have an opinion, it's okay, 2014 03:04:13.000 --> 03:04:16.600 go with it. This is it, okay. So I think the hot 2015 03:04:16.639 --> 03:04:26.719 dog versus sandwich thing is sort of that Asian versus Caucasian equation. Is the 2016 03:04:26.760 --> 03:04:33.600 white say that one time Asian versus Caucasian equation, but the hot dog is 2017 03:04:33.639 --> 03:04:37.200 like pretty uniquely American. I think the hot dog is kind of vertical, 2018 03:04:37.200 --> 03:04:41.399 uh huh, and the sandwich is kind of holding on. So is a 2019 03:04:41.479 --> 03:04:48.200 hamburger sandwich? So a hamburger is a sandwich. It is sandwich. Yeah, 2020 03:04:48.239 --> 03:04:50.520 I mean it makes sense. It's a hamburger sandwich, right, But 2021 03:04:50.639 --> 03:04:54.920 it's it's all depending on perspective too, because like, how do you I 2022 03:04:54.920 --> 03:05:00.799 mean, granted everyone you all the hot dog like that, I'm it is 2023 03:05:00.840 --> 03:05:05.120 it is meat between two pieces of bread. Yeah, yeah, that I 2024 03:05:05.120 --> 03:05:09.799 mean that really is like we're peeking behind the curtains into the mysteries of the 2025 03:05:09.879 --> 03:05:13.680 universe right now. Yeah, I'm sure that the Earl of sandwich. Yes, 2026 03:05:15.040 --> 03:05:22.920 they did not have the technology yet to make dogs, so they made 2027 03:05:24.000 --> 03:05:28.280 sandwich. But at that time the earl of sandwich. But in Germany at 2028 03:05:28.280 --> 03:05:31.120 the time, were they're making brons and putting them on bread? What are 2029 03:05:31.159 --> 03:05:35.399 they making brons or beaners? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I don't We're 2030 03:05:35.399 --> 03:05:39.799 gonna happen. But here's the question. We're gonna next. What what we're 2031 03:05:39.799 --> 03:05:43.200 the Chinese doing? Dude, this is racking my brain right now. We're 2032 03:05:43.239 --> 03:05:46.719 creaking out. I mean, pork buns, but those obviously are not a 2033 03:05:46.719 --> 03:05:54.600 sandwich because they're enclosed. That's true. Well, come on, no no 2034 03:05:54.639 --> 03:05:58.120 better questions than that. There's no better. Actually, we only have Louis 2035 03:05:58.319 --> 03:06:03.280 uh Lewis Basquez with thank you your donation saying thank you. I mean he 2036 03:06:03.360 --> 03:06:11.479 just appreciates the content. Are we talking New York NYC Ballpark hot dogs? 2037 03:06:13.120 --> 03:06:16.680 Chicago style? I mean Chicago stat hot dogs are really the only way to 2038 03:06:16.719 --> 03:06:24.040 eat a hot dog the pepper. I think that the pepper on it is 2039 03:06:24.159 --> 03:06:30.600 well, the only the only true like real sandwich is the sandwich used to 2040 03:06:30.639 --> 03:06:37.239 get at a small race car track in southern America and that's the fried Bologny 2041 03:06:37.399 --> 03:06:43.959 silence with onion and pepper on it. Well, I'm I'm equally a sacrilegious. 2042 03:06:43.959 --> 03:06:46.799 I think the sausage, peppers and onions is better than a hot dog 2043 03:06:48.399 --> 03:06:56.079 probably probably true. Yeah, well Gary, thanks, and you know again 2044 03:06:56.200 --> 03:06:58.959 check out GARYT. Gary Harington dot. Now are you on social media? 2045 03:07:00.040 --> 03:07:05.360 People finding on social media? I'm on social media at on YouTube and on 2046 03:07:05.040 --> 03:07:09.399 yeah, pretty much all the social media, not ticktime and not some of 2047 03:07:09.440 --> 03:07:20.319 them weird ask things that but the real Gary H And you know, on 2048 03:07:20.879 --> 03:07:28.239 YouTube and put out a lot of YouTube content. I put out YouTube content 2049 03:07:28.319 --> 03:07:33.920 every Friday I have. Okay, so you're pretty regular. Check out Garry 2050 03:07:35.040 --> 03:07:41.920 on the real Gary H. And you LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, 2051 03:07:41.040 --> 03:07:43.559 but no, only fans. I think that's what our guests are. 2052 03:07:43.920 --> 03:07:50.799 Our only fans. Yeah that I mean the fans only stuff. Uh No, 2053 03:07:52.079 --> 03:07:56.000 I I don't personally, I'm not a purveyor and yeah and I'm not 2054 03:07:56.120 --> 03:08:00.760 yet. It's okay. You use your VPN service, not only that stuff. 2055 03:08:01.520 --> 03:08:03.799 You know, we don't even know, we don't heard. There's some 2056 03:08:03.879 --> 03:08:09.479 good VPNs available. VPN everybody do that, you know, and and and 2057 03:08:09.600 --> 03:08:18.319 if you carry that the next step further, there is some good medical resources 2058 03:08:18.399 --> 03:08:22.319 that can help check your records to and that's important. That's important because the 2059 03:08:22.399 --> 03:08:26.319 VA, everybody you get it to V acts like the money is coming from 2060 03:08:26.440 --> 03:08:31.799 their pocket. So so getting medical, getting re medical is like, so 2061 03:08:31.920 --> 03:08:39.040 actually, I actually want to note that because you know, I've I probably 2062 03:08:39.040 --> 03:08:43.680 need to address that issue myself. Re Medicals your place, like I we 2063 03:08:43.799 --> 03:08:48.520 did some research into them. They've got great people have said that that they've 2064 03:08:48.639 --> 03:08:52.120 really helped them out. Like just if you go on Reddit and see like 2065 03:08:52.200 --> 03:08:56.239 people remdicals really help people out, It's good. You know that, either 2066 03:08:56.360 --> 03:09:03.079 that or being a three or four star general really helps that. Yeah, 2067 03:09:03.559 --> 03:09:07.600 if you don't have a Congress one in your pocket, medically the way to 2068 03:09:07.600 --> 03:09:11.559 go. Why is it that all the three and four stars get one hundred 2069 03:09:11.600 --> 03:09:16.799 percent this ability and a lot of people know did you? I didn't realize 2070 03:09:16.799 --> 03:09:20.280 this until recently. Some told me when you're a retired four start you get 2071 03:09:20.319 --> 03:09:24.600 base paid for life. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. 2072 03:09:26.760 --> 03:09:30.440 So coming up this Friday, the next episode, I'm not gonna be here. 2073 03:09:30.440 --> 03:09:35.639 I'm going to be absent. You guys, have a story. Yeah, 2074 03:09:33.600 --> 03:09:41.000 we have First Special Forces. That's really good. D thank you, 2075 03:09:41.159 --> 03:09:46.239 Yeah, thanks thanks for that. Yeah we have sty Yeah you really you 2076 03:09:46.319 --> 03:09:48.719 really hype that, you really hype that hype that for the viewers. Thanks 2077 03:09:48.760 --> 03:09:52.879 man, Gary, thank you so much for spending a Friday or Tuesday night. 2078 03:09:54.000 --> 03:09:56.639 Tuesday. Yeah, thanks for driving up man. I appreciate it. 2079 03:09:58.000 --> 03:10:01.719 To have you up again sometime. No, thanks, Hey, good to 2080 03:10:01.760 --> 03:10:07.200 see you guys, Good to meet d and uh look forward to working with 2081 03:10:07.239 --> 03:10:11.799 you guys in the future. So yeah, yeah, absolutely, I'm watching 2082 03:10:11.799 --> 03:10:18.040 you guys now, so seeing but no, you know, it's it's it's 2083 03:10:18.120 --> 03:10:26.799 interesting content and I'm also uh somewhat curious as I'm watching your podcast and your 2084 03:10:26.879 --> 03:10:31.959 publications and I'll develop and grow. Yeah, and it's kind of good, 2085 03:10:31.959 --> 03:10:35.639 you know. I I kind of pull for everybody that's been one of us 2086 03:10:35.680 --> 03:10:41.840 and doing us and trying to do something different now yeah and see how that 2087 03:10:41.879 --> 03:10:46.799 goes. Yeah, it's it's odd. I mean throwing darts. Yeah yeah, 2088 03:10:48.079 --> 03:10:50.600 yeah, but it's fun. I can't complain. But it's good to 2089 03:10:50.639 --> 03:10:54.879 be throwing them instead of catching them. Yeah, there you go for sure, 2090 03:10:54.399 --> 03:10:58.159 for sure, So uh, Dave and d will catch you guys on 2091 03:10:58.239 --> 03:11:03.159 Friday and Gary again. Thank you so much man, and we'll see all 2092 03:11:03.159 --> 03:11:05.760 you guys next time. Thanks everybody,