1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:47,640 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:52,200 I'm Bill Thomas. We are joined today by author Casey Sherman to talk about 11 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,799 his New York Times bestselling book Helltown, The Untold Story of a serial Killer 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,320 on Cape Cod Casey, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, 13 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:03,439 thanks for having guys. I loved the book. It was truly fantastic, 14 00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:07,640 but it sounds leased on the sales. Everybody has loved your book. So 15 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,640 far, we are thrilled that you're taking the time to talk to us about 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,319 it. Oh, my pleasure. I'm very happy to be here. Do 17 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,680 you pay attention to stuff like, oh, where are we on the New 18 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,480 York Times bestseller charts? And sure, yeah, I think afternoon. I'm 19 00:01:19,519 --> 00:01:25,280 competitive by nature, and I wrote this book with an idea that I wanted 20 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,920 to elevate the genre of true crime, So I didn't know how that was 21 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,560 going to be received by traditional true crime readers. I'm glad that they took 22 00:01:34,599 --> 00:01:38,719 this journey and really followed my lead on it, and so far the response 23 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,680 has been overwhelming. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,359 professional and educational background before we go down the Tony cost A rabbit hole? 25 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,439 Sure? I caught myself the accidental author. Guys and ever believed to be 26 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,200 writing books of any kind until I was thrust into the spotlight because of my 27 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:00,000 work on one criminal case, one of the biggest cases in American history, 28 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,519 the case of the Boston Strangler. And for me it was a personal journey 29 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,919 because my aunt, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, was the youngest and final 30 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:14,520 victim in this notorious nineteen sixties murders free. So I grew up with true 31 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:19,000 crime, and there were questions about the guilt or innocence of the self confessed 32 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,240 Boston strangler, and those questions led me to journalism school at Boston University. 33 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:30,319 Those questions led me to a twenty five year career as an investigative journalist. 34 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,840 The first book I ever wrote was a memoir about my reinvestigation of my aunt's 35 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,000 murder called A Rose from Mary, and I thought there was an overwhelming response 36 00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:43,599 to that book. It was a surprise bestseller, and I thought, Okay, 37 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,800 I can do this. There are other stories that need to be told, 38 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:51,400 and Halltown is now my fifteenth book. Quite frankly, guys, I 39 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:54,479 wasn't planning on ever or going down the path of a serial killer story again 40 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,159 until this story really grabbed me by the shirt and would to go. You've 41 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:07,159 covered all sorts of other stuff. There's sports and there's some crime, and 42 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:13,080 you've written Hunting Whitey about Whitey Bulger, one of my favorite mobsters. What 43 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,599 was it about Helltown and this Tony Costa mystery? As Kristen mentioned, that 44 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,400 sort of put that on your to do list where you thought, I really 45 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,520 have to write about that the inspiration came during the height of the pandemic. 46 00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:27,960 I just wanted to get the hell out of the house, like we all 47 00:03:28,039 --> 00:03:30,120 did, and I just picked up my brother one day on the Cape and 48 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,199 we drove the length of the cave, just having a great day amongst ourselves. 49 00:03:35,599 --> 00:03:38,400 We end up in Provincetown and we've been there so many times before growing 50 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:42,439 up on the Cave. It was the height of tourist season. All of 51 00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:46,759 the businesses were shuttered, and so we began to talk about the ghosts real 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,479 and imagined in Provincetown, and ultimately we landed on the Tony cost A murder 53 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,840 case because we were driving past a lot of the different landmarks and milestones in 54 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:00,719 that murder case, and we both knew the cost of murder case, but 55 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,960 didn't know it in detail. How we learned about Tony Costa we were children 56 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:10,120 of the nineteen seventies growing up on Cape Cod and he was really looked at, 57 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,360 or at least talked about as the boogeyman. So if we were going 58 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,120 out on Halloween and it would be watch out for Tony Costa or Tony Chupp 59 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:23,079 as the people called him, because he'll take you away he was really folklore 60 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,639 and myth until I went back to my writing office here and I'd get a 61 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,680 deep dive on the cases, and I could not believe how barbaric this murder 62 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,959 case was. That I've covered up to fifty homicides and my career as an 63 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,879 investigative journalist. Concluding Jack the Ripper, I've never seen anything this bad and 64 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,480 this brutal and this vicious before, and I was shocked that the story was 65 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,759 lost to history. They explained why it was lost in the book Helltown, 66 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:55,959 But that ultimately became my challenge to take a look at this case with a 67 00:04:55,959 --> 00:05:01,519 fresh set of eyes and implore some unique check by bringing into work and iconic 68 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,560 writers and following their journey into darkness with this case as law. The English 69 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:12,560 teacher in me was absolutely thrilled to see both of my loves combined in one 70 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,560 book. It's true crime and its American literature. I was hooked from the 71 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,439 minute that I started reading it. Before we do a deep dive, can 72 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:25,240 you just walk our listeners who may be unaware of Tony Costa through what he 73 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,319 did. Just give us Tony Costa and a nutshell. Sure, Tony Costa 74 00:05:29,519 --> 00:05:33,720 is the real life epitome of Norman Bates in Psycho. He was a serial 75 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:40,160 killer who had mother love hate issues. He was an amateur taxidermist, but 76 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,920 he was also incredibly charming, and he was a hippie like messiah who drew 77 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:50,319 young beautiful women into the dark woods around Provincetown, specifically at a town called 78 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:56,639 Truro Beautiful Landscape on Cape Cod and drew them to their murders. Tony Costa 79 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,319 stabbed, shot, murdered these women and then just membered them and buried them 80 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,319 in shallow grapes. Again, this was a shocking crime that went unsolved for 81 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,079 many months. And during the public awareness of this case, two writers, 82 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,079 Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut, become darkly obsessed with this case. And I 83 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,759 think they wanted to explore the darkness and evil within themselves and die write about 84 00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:23,560 that journey in this story. And there are a lot of comparisons, Kristen, 85 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,439 between Tony Costa and Charles Manson, and those are legitimate comparisons because both 86 00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:34,279 were very charismatic. They were operating in nineteen sixty eight, nineteen sixty nine, 87 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,399 nineteen sixty nine, and that whole Er Guys was a landscape on which 88 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:42,879 I wanted to paint for this book because I look at it, what we're 89 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,000 dealing with here in twenty twenty two, in nineteen sixty nine and the Summer 90 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,920 of Love as a distant memory right America and the world is still reeling from 91 00:06:49,959 --> 00:06:55,399 the assassinations of Robert F. Kennedy of Martin Luther King. Then you've got 92 00:06:55,439 --> 00:07:00,399 a very bloody of Democratic National Convention and the protests in Chicago. You've got 93 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:03,879 the Nickson inauguration, You've got chap acquitted, You've got Woodstock, the moon 94 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:10,240 landing, and ultimately thea coda to the story. The Manson murders in la 95 00:07:10,319 --> 00:07:15,160 and my characters in Helltown touch upon all of these major historical events, and 96 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:20,319 I wanted to really bring that into focus. The comparisons between Tony Costa and 97 00:07:20,399 --> 00:07:25,720 Charles Manson are just chilling, and even down to the fact that they did 98 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,199 share a follower, Linda Kasabian, because you've done plenty of research on Costa 99 00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,000 at this point, Why do you think that Charles Manson became so well known 100 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:39,600 and Tony Costan never quite reached that same level of notoriety. I think it's 101 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,279 pretty simple. Manson and his followers murdered famous people. They murdered chair and 102 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,879 take, and it was a story that unfolded in real time in Hollywood. 103 00:07:47,879 --> 00:07:53,920 But as I said, I have a lot of authenticity and authority in the 104 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,079 true crime space having covered all the homicides that are covered. The Tony Costa 105 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,399 case is right up there with the most brutal sero murder cases in American history. 106 00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:05,040 And I never wanted to glorify his work, his murderous work. Person 107 00:08:05,199 --> 00:08:07,720 is reading. The book is dedicated to the women, to the victims in 108 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:13,160 this case, and I wanted to really make them less and bone again and 109 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:16,279 really talk about them as young women with all the hopes and dreams that young 110 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:20,360 women had at that time. And these women should all be grandmothers right now, 111 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:24,399 they should be enjoying their grandchildren. But for the most part, they 112 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:30,079 were frozen in time and at nineteen years old or at twenty two years old. 113 00:08:30,319 --> 00:08:33,320 And one of the things I wanted to talk about in this book at 114 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,799 the conversation I wanted to have was some asset I wanted to explore against women 115 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,919 back in nineteen sixty nine, and I think a lot of that still exists 116 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:46,840 today, especially with the Me Too movement, women were disposable in nineteen sixty 117 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,080 nine. When women go missing in Provincetown, nobody care. Some of their 118 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,720 family members don't care, ye friends don't care. They just disappear, and 119 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,559 nobody is racking focus to what happened to these women. And I've just thought 120 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,200 that was a very tragic part of this whole story. You talk about it 121 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,240 in the book. There's this idea of the transient nature of people coming and 122 00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:13,840 going, and especially in a place like Provincetown in nineteen sixty nine, and 123 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,759 there's visitors, and there's people that are there and gone every single week. 124 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:24,080 The way that these kind of hippie girls, young women are referred to is 125 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:30,120 really pretty disparaging. They don't seem valued, and a lot of people don't 126 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,639 seem terribly concerned that there actually could be something going on involving a series of 127 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,240 serial murders. It seems like that's right, nobody can. And I also 128 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:45,360 think that they were looked at as opportunities. They were exploited by not only 129 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,320 obviously the killer, but by the people around them. The district attorney in 130 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,120 the case. It became a story where let's use these young women to elevate 131 00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:56,519 our careers. As I said, I wanted to rack focus on them. 132 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:01,039 And again it goes back to my nineteen year old On Sullivan. I always 133 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:05,279 focus on the victims first in their journeys and what they went through and what 134 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,960 their families must be going through. Even to this, By the way, 135 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,120 we didn't mean to move too quickly past what happened with your aunt Mary Sullivan. 136 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,639 Can you tell us a little bit more about that? That's sure covered 137 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:20,200 in your first book, A Rose for Mary. Yeah. Rose from Mary 138 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,080 was my first book, published in the early two thousands, and this was 139 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,080 the culmination of a reinvestigation I had done on her murder and on all the 140 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,960 Boston strangl and murders. Mary Sullivan was a nineteen year old and nineteen sixty 141 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,759 two graduate of Barnstaple High School on Cape Cod. She had just moved to 142 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:41,559 Boston four days before she was murdered on January fourth, nineteen sixty four, 143 00:10:41,639 --> 00:10:45,720 and an apartment right in the heart of Beacon Hill, which is that's postcard 144 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,840 Boston, one of the safest areas in the city. She turned out to 145 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:54,720 be the youngest and final victim of this murders. Free and my investigation, 146 00:10:54,919 --> 00:10:58,600 Bill and Kristen focused on the fact that there wasn't just one Boston strangler. 147 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,480 There was and Jack the ripperre resurrected to stalk the women of Boston. That 148 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:07,440 didn't happen. There were several killers murdering these women for their own purposes, 149 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,519 and they hade a blueprint for how to do it because the grizzly details were 150 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,679 printed in the newspapers at the time. But the police knew that it wasn't 151 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,720 just the work of one mate. And I have gone through all of the 152 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,759 police reports and the records so much like I didn't help him, and you 153 00:11:20,879 --> 00:11:26,759 find a thread and interview the original Task Force Boston Strangler Task Force investigators who 154 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:31,799 had at least six suspects in these eleven homicides. I was listening the other 155 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:35,759 day to a podcast that I had listened to and enjoyed before Stranglers, and 156 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,639 I was listening to the first episode and was like, Oh, it's Casey, 157 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,879 Oh my gosh or Ryan, and I've never listened to it. Yes, 158 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,759 you were YEA. I didn't sit down with them. They probably gleaned 159 00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:48,720 audio that I had given in many of the interviews that I've done in this 160 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,639 case. Oh that's interesting. I thought that you'd actually worked with them on 161 00:11:52,759 --> 00:11:54,320 it. You were, you were in the first and the last episode they 162 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,759 were talking about your reinvestigation into Mary's case. It's the first thing I wasn't 163 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,159 against the project. I'm certainly happy that people are talking about this case now, 164 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,200 sixty years after the murders, which is I think a great opportunity to 165 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,720 talk about the murders that occurred in nineteen sixty nine in province down Again. 166 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,519 These murders were lost to history, buried by history, but they deserved to 167 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,320 be discussed. These victims deserved to be remembered, and that was part of 168 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,759 the mission that I had writing this book. Now, I knew that as 169 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:31,000 a professional journalist, it's probably pretty hard to phase you. But you mentioned 170 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,279 earlier the crimes are absolutely gruesome. How did you deal with the horror of 171 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:39,519 reading looking at the crime scenes and having to deal with all of that. 172 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,399 It is stomach turning, it is, And I had the benefit of three 173 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,159 thousand primary source documents in this case, court transcripts, all of the trial 174 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:54,240 transcripts, plus the crime scene reports and witness interviews. But what really brought 175 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,360 it home for me, Bill and Kristen was the autopsy photos. In the 176 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,559 crime scene photo of these women, they're the most and I've seen many, 177 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,000 They're the most vicious I've ever seen. It didn't look like these women were 178 00:13:07,039 --> 00:13:09,720 actually stabbed. It looked like they had been mauled by a great white shark. 179 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:15,759 And the frenzied attacks on these women show something that is beyond disturbing. 180 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:22,279 This alter ego that you talk about in the book, how much of that 181 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,159 were you able to draw from or are you taking some artistic license there? 182 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:33,440 Casey, this other being that seems to take over part of it was taking 183 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:39,840 a little step into the literary nonfiction field and recreating scenes. But all of 184 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:46,000 those scenes in the book are based on the Killers unpublished manuscript called Resurrection. 185 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,399 I had actually had access to that, so for the first time, I 186 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,600 can bring you into every single crime scene through Tony cost his eye while he 187 00:13:54,759 --> 00:14:00,600 is trying to blame these vicious murders on that somebody else. So it was 188 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,200 an alter ego that he claimed. It was a young man living in Provincetown 189 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:09,639 named Corey Debreau. He who Tony Costa blamed the murders on. But there 190 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,679 was another Corey Devereaux, meaning Costas alter Rigo that was buried deep inside him. 191 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,080 Like I said, one of the things you have to do, guys, 192 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:20,799 is just when you write a book like this, you go back into 193 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,200 the history of a killer. So realizing that he was a son of a 194 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,039 single mother, his father was killed during World War Two. He was a 195 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:33,159 World War two hero, actually saved the life of a fellow sailor or Tony 196 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:35,840 Costa never met him, grew up with this woman who he really loved, 197 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,039 and by the time he's five or six years old, she realizes that she 198 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,960 can't support him on her own. So if he meets a guy and they 199 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,279 get married, and they have a son of their own, and now Tony 200 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:50,399 Costa has got to share his love with them, and then that is the 201 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:54,759 moment where he begins to split, I think mentally, and he starts to 202 00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:00,559 and many the serio killers have done this. He starts to take his aggressions 203 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,919 out on birds and small animals than the household pets. He had a toy 204 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,639 total in his neighborhood when he was fifteen years old. Good luck ever finding 205 00:15:09,679 --> 00:15:13,120 that thing again, because it was probably stuffed and put under his bed, 206 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:18,759 and he was arrested for assaulting a young girl sixteen years old when he was 207 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:24,039 a teenager, and instead of getting the help that he sorely needed at that 208 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:28,639 time, getting him the psychiatric help he needed, his family protected him. 209 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,000 His mother protected him and pleaded with the judge be leanient on my son. 210 00:15:33,559 --> 00:15:37,720 I will send him away to live with family on Cape cod which is what 211 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,039 she did. Never addressed his issues. He moves to the cape. She 212 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,840 followed him, and then his prey begins to get a little larger. He 213 00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:50,320 starts to hunt down the wild animals on the outer cape, and eventually he 214 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,639 graduates, if you will, to human beings. So he had a total 215 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,600 of how many victims. Remind me on that he was convicted of two murders. 216 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:03,840 We know that he killed at least five women. I would probably double 217 00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:07,519 that number. Okay, he did travel a lot. We talked about a 218 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,039 little bit of the comparisons between he and Charles Manson. It's interesting to note 219 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:18,200 that both Tony cost and Charles Manson lived in the same neighborhood in hate Ashbury 220 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,840 and San Francisco. In nineteen sixty seven, they attended the same party as 221 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,440 they were in the same rooms together and I have eye witnesses that have put 222 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,480 them in the same rooms. They've had conversations. I don't know what they 223 00:16:27,519 --> 00:16:30,960 said to each other. I don't know if there was any cross pollination going 224 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:37,399 on. But you've got two killers evolving into monsters breathing the same error, 225 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,039 which I thought was pretty frightening ulcast. Wow, it's amazing. What a 226 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:48,519 strange coincidence. The other victims potential victims Casey that you're thinking of, even 227 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:55,679 if you can't confirm, are there other unsolved cases in that area or the 228 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:03,519 areas where he traveled That would be cases in San Francisco they're unsolved cases in 229 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:07,480 New York City obviously, were also unsolved cases in New England. There were 230 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:14,240 upwards to three hundred young women who had gone missing in nineteen sixty eight nineteen 231 00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:17,319 sixty nine in New England alone. How many of them made it home to 232 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,000 their families, I can't tell, but I know that just based on his 233 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,400 killing methods, this isn't something that he did just four or five times. 234 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,759 He had to grow into the killer he became when he murdered Pat Walsh and 235 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,799 Mary and Waisaki in January of nineteen sixty nine and then buried them in shallow 236 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:40,839 graves in Truro. See. You posit right at the end of the book 237 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,119 that the Lady in the Dunes case may be attributable to one of Tony Costs 238 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,880 followers, the one you describe Strawberry Blonde. Can you tell us a little 239 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,880 bit about the Lady in the Dunes case? Sure? That's obviously a notorious 240 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,720 unsolved mystery on the Cape, and there have been many theories over the past 241 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,599 thirty years to who this woman was and who killed us. Some of those 242 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,400 theories focused on Whitey Bulger, the crime boss from Boston. Now, I 243 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,400 wrote the book Hunting Whitey Bulger, which was about his sixteen years as a 244 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,319 fugitive. I also, I'm the only one, including my co author for 245 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,559 that project. We're the only one who ever interviewed Whitey Bulger's killer, who 246 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,359 was just indicted last week. Yeah, so we got very deep into the 247 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,160 Bulger case. Foulger did not do this. Vulger did not kill any woman 248 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,920 in Provincetown, even though he traveled there. It wasn't his m Stephen King's 249 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,799 kid Joe Hill positive death. The Lady in the Dunes was an extra in 250 00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:40,640 the movie Jaws in nineteen seventy YEA, yeah, people love that completely ridiculousness. 251 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,720 A great story. It would have been a great story if it was 252 00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:48,359 true. It was. Tony Costa was considered a suspect in this unsolved murder 253 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,079 right from the get go, but he couldn't have done it because he was 254 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,759 killed in prison in nineteen seventy four, and it was the summer of seventy 255 00:18:56,759 --> 00:18:59,920 four and that happened. And then a month later a woman has found dismant 256 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,680 embered in the Provincetown Dunes. Her identity has never been discovered, her killer 257 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,440 has never been discovered. But I've had access to the crime team photos in 258 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,319 that case, and I look at cutloads and I see a lot of similarities 259 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:18,119 there. And I go back to the similarities between Costa and Manson. Both 260 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:23,400 had families and disciples who are willing to commit crimes and kill in their names. 261 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,799 And my theory is that the follower of Tony Costa committed this murder to 262 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:33,440 appease Tony Costa's restless spirit. They were heavily into which that at the time. 263 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,480 Enough the Wiccan subculture that's out there that is focused on the sky, 264 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:41,759 the moon in the land. This was dark art, dark magic that they 265 00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:45,920 were exploring in the late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies. Have there been 266 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,200 efforts to identify the lady in the Dunes? Do we know where she's buried? 267 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,400 Could she be? She's buried almost in an unmarked grave in the same 268 00:19:55,559 --> 00:20:00,359 the cemetery that Tony Costa is buried in. There have been numerous efforts DNA 269 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:06,680 analysis, cranial facial reconstruction. They've tried to find out her identity for decades, 270 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,359 and no one has ever come forward to claim her body. There has 271 00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:15,000 been no DNA match for anybody in any database in the United States or abroad. 272 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:18,799 It's really that this woman is in an unmarked grave. It's very sad 273 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:25,160 that the victims of Tony Costa were buried in shallow graves that he dug oh 274 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:30,279 he after he was killed or committed suicide. They received Catholic burial and provincetown. 275 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,119 There's there's no justice in that. No, to put it mildly, 276 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,119 I'm wondering if we could take another crack at the Lady in the Dunes case. 277 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,359 Obviously, we're big supporters of investigative genetic genealogy, it seems if the 278 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,559 support was there, that might be an interesting way to go with trying to 279 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:52,079 identify her, which might at least give them a new fresh start in terms 280 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:56,039 of that investigation. I think it's an open case in Provincetown, and certainly 281 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,480 there are people are all around the world that are focused on finding out who 282 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:03,960 she is before you can find out who killed him. So the more smart 283 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,920 people that get behind a project like that never say never, hopefully that we 284 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,119 will find out who she was, who her family was, and ultimately why, 285 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,920 how and she was killed. You're listening to Mind over Murder. Will 286 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:29,480 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind 287 00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:33,920 over Murder. So you'd mentioned a couple of minutes ago about Tony Costas followers, 288 00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:38,440 and I hear that when you went onto the Cape to do some book 289 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,799 signings you had some I'm not going to call it issues. I don't think 290 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:45,480 we justified by calling it an issue, but I did hear that there was 291 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:51,599 some interesting developments in terms of Tony Costas followers. Maybe hassling you or giving 292 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,559 you a little bit of that kind of comes with the territory when you're an 293 00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:57,960 investigative journalist. But I will say in nineteen sixty eight and sixty nine, 294 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,599 Tony Coat still was protected. He was protected by his family and by his 295 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,519 friends, and they intimidated and harassed witnesses. They intimidated and harassed police officers 296 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:12,519 and investigators. Had Tony cost have been arrested before he was, maybe pet 297 00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:17,240 Walsh and Mary and Wisaki would be alive today. So now, fifty three 298 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:21,559 years later, I had a book event scheduled in Provincetown at the only bookstore 299 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:26,000 in Provincetown, and it was abruptly canceled, and I found out that the 300 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:32,160 same people friends and family of the serial killer were intimidating the bookseller and threatening 301 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:37,079 the bookseller. And yeah, I've received some intimidating emails and printing emails, 302 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:40,279 but I'm not really concerned about it. Oh, you have to always keep 303 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:44,200 your head on a swivel, especially you're looking at the recent attack of Salmon 304 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:48,519 Rushdie and artists of being attacked openly. Now it is a concern, but 305 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,200 it's really frightening that you've got these people that are still trying to protect a 306 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:59,440 serial killer's dark legacy fifty three years after the crime. So about three weeks 307 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,200 ago, I got email from the bookseller, great guy, and I felt 308 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,640 really bad for him. He's just trying to run a business and he said 309 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,319 everybody was trying to come in and looking for the book Helltown and they couldn't 310 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:14,559 find it because it wasn't for sale. So he bought two boxes and asked 311 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,599 me to drive up the Problemstown and sign them, which I did, and 312 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,680 I thanked them for his coverage in his support. And I'm not going to 313 00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:25,920 cower to any online mob for sure. And the facts in the story stand 314 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,400 up to the story that I wrote. And I'm sorry that the family is 315 00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,759 still trying to protect this guy. So is that his ex wife avis that 316 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:37,640 he's doing so, yeah, I think she's certainly somebody who's been sympathetic to 317 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,039 that online mob there. But there are the people that claim that they're family 318 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,039 and friends of cost Her, And they're the same people that I read about 319 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,000 in police reports of going back to nineteen sixty nine. In nineteen seven, 320 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:55,000 and you're thinking, oh, this name looks familiar. Jaronstown's a small area 321 00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:59,319 I called the book Helltown because that was the nickname given to the area in 322 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,559 the seventy hundred when it was a pirate community, and it's a town that's 323 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:07,759 always followed their own rules and made up their own law still to this day 324 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,279 many ways. Did you work at all with Liza Rodman her book The Babysitter 325 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,359 came out about the Costa case. Actually, I was reading Helltown and I 326 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,960 was like, why does this sound so familiar? And I had to think 327 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,119 about it, and I was like, oh, I had read The Babysitter 328 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,519 a couple of months. I didn't know Lizer. I knew she had written 329 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:27,720 a book, and I took a look at it and I grazed it over. 330 00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:32,440 I don't want to ever follow anybody's tracks sting a book like this. 331 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,519 She had an event in Provincetown Cancel and they really attacked her online a lot 332 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,039 of the community members. So I reached out to her the next day and 333 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:42,720 I said, I'm going to support you, so this can't stand, and 334 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:48,200 I'm gonna I'm gonna side with you, and we're gonna have a united front 335 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,400 against some people that are trying to crush free speech and trying to protect the 336 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,599 serial killers. So a lot of respectabliz it. Were you more comfortable, 337 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,480 for example, having book events elsewhere, say on mid Cape. I know 338 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:04,400 Provincetown it does feel like the end of the world, and it's certainly the 339 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,839 end of the Cape, and it's a really cool place. But if you 340 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,359 felt like the pressure was too much on a local level, would you be 341 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,440 more comfortable mid Cape or elsewhere? I'm comfortable ever or a go Bill. 342 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:18,640 I would have been comfortable going in the Provincetown for that event. So there 343 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:25,160 was a film shot here in Massachusetts last year called The Boston Striding stars Karen 344 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,000 Nightley. It's coming out next year, and I could have called the producers 345 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,440 and demanded that they do not shoot in Massachusetts because all the families are still 346 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,440 there. I don't have any right to do that. I have a right 347 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,160 to support the film or not support the film, but I don't have a 348 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,440 right to dictate who can. So I feel the same way with the cost 349 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,160 of Family. They have no rights. They don't own this story. They 350 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,200 have no right to dictate who can read about Tony Costa's murderous exploits and this 351 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,119 dark period in history. So I don't have any qualms about visiting Provincetown, 352 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,880 and I have zero trepidation on any other book event that I do, and 353 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:07,480 I've been on book tour for forty seven days and talking at bookstores are big 354 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,440 venues all across New England in New York City, and I don't have a 355 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,279 worry about that. Has anyone ever shown up from the Costa family to challenge 356 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,119 anything that you seem to have done your research, You did your homework. 357 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,720 I certainly didn't get the sense except for the areas where we talked about where 358 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:33,759 there's literary license, where you're sure helping to create for the reader connective tissue, 359 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,559 and that tradition goes back to in Cold Blood with Truman Coody, it 360 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:41,279 actually goes all the way back to Death in the Afternoon and written by Ernest 361 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,839 Hemingway. I was looking forward to kind of expanding and painting a little rodder 362 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,279 when I wrote That's why I created some of those or recreated some of those 363 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,559 scenes. Well, it's interesting that people have appeared at these events and they 364 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,960 knew cost Many of them knew Costa very intimately, and I've learned a lot 365 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,960 from these exchanges. After these event didn't come at me in a threatening way. 366 00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:06,160 They want to talk and have a quiet moment and share perspective and insight 367 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,240 about him. Which is certainly very helpful to me. They're entitled if they 368 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,000 wanted to have a more positive outlook on Tony Costa. In other words, 369 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,240 you paint him, I think, accurately as the monster that he was. 370 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,480 But if somebody else feels differently for whatever reason, I think they're certainly entitled 371 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:26,920 to that opinion. With threatening the owner of the bookstore in Provincetown, US 372 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,799 like somebody threatening them for having a positive opinion on one of the most vicious 373 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,839 serial killers in American history. I follow certain social media thread on Facebook, 374 00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:38,079 and I see that he had a Tony Costa had a birthday recently, and 375 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,960 there are people in the community that we're talking about Tony Costa like he had 376 00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:47,039 lost his life saving three people in a five in glowing terms, and not 377 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,519 the vicious, serial killing, absolute monster that he was. I want to 378 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,279 take a minute and pivot back to Kurt vonning It and Norman Mailer, because 379 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,680 that was a whole different side of this story. And I was, like 380 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,640 I said, and I'm an English teacher and I'm a nerd. I was 381 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,839 thrilled to read this. How did you learn that k and Norman Mailer both 382 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,839 had this obsession at the same time in about the same area. I think 383 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,160 you and I are both literature nerds. Krista Bay. I'm a huge fan 384 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,480 of literary biographies, and I've read a lot about Norman, and I've read 385 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,359 a lot about Kurt. And this common team that I found in both their 386 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,480 stories was their obsession with this murder case that was happening in the backyard in 387 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:33,480 nineteen sixty nine. And then you look at these two iconic writers as people 388 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,119 in in nineteen sixty nine, when we meet Kurt Vonnegut in Helltown, he's 389 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,680 not the Kurt Vonnegut that we remember today. Struggling author, he's been out 390 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,440 of print for years. He's got an automobile dealership on Cape cod that is 391 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,359 failing. He's trying to support his family, and he's got this story in 392 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,799 his head that ultimately will become Slaughterhouse Five, which becomes an anti war anthem 393 00:28:53,880 --> 00:29:00,039 for an entire generation. And he's been running away from horror, meaning the 394 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,640 horror of World War Two since the nineteen forty since he was a pow and 395 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:10,000 survived the Dresden firebombing, the most deadly firebombing in Europe during the World War 396 00:29:10,079 --> 00:29:14,960 Two. Twenty five to thirty thousand people were killed and burned alive, and 397 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,440 it was his job to bury the dead. How do you come back to 398 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,119 the United States, Christen and get a job and raise a family. So 399 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,359 there's a lot of empathy and sympathy that I have occurred. Norman is on 400 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,640 the other side of the spectrum. He's been a best selling author since Naked 401 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,519 the Dead in the nineteen forties, and he looks at himself as the heir 402 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,400 apparent to Ernest Hemingway, both in his writing in his larger than life kind 403 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,839 of lifestyle. But he's got a lot of darkness in it. And there's 404 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,519 a passage in my book that I remind the readers of that Norman mail Or 405 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:49,960 shouldn't have been free in nineteen sixty nine. He should have been in jail 406 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,440 for attempted murder because he did try to kill his second wife Adele during a 407 00:29:55,519 --> 00:30:00,240 cocktail party in nineteen sixties, stabbed Or redependent, and he could have would 408 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,359 have gone to jail for it, but she didn't testify against him, and 409 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,119 he was really interested in exploring that darkness. Do you cross that line? 410 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,880 And certainly cost It was somebody that I think he looked at and studied almost 411 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,319 as an anthropology in many ways. I was going to say, though, 412 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:21,119 who among us hasn't wanted to stab their significant other with a pen? That? 413 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,519 Really I can't talk for my wife, but I'm sure I've driven nercrasy 414 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,880 many times. But Norman was a dark guy, brilliant, as was Kurt, 415 00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:32,720 and both of them approached this story in different fashions. Were their families 416 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,920 willing to help you out on the project. I did have some correspondence with 417 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,200 Edie, and I did speak privately to Michael Mahler, who's Norman's son. 418 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:44,319 I didn't want to rely heavily because they were young at the time, and 419 00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:47,880 I just wanted to focus on the characters that I had learned about that I 420 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,759 wanted to write about. Who really took upon myself to build or sculpt in 421 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,440 Norman out of my own play. I have said something regarding the Colonial Parkway 422 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:03,079 murders, my sister's case and Williamsburg and you that I believe that the town 423 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:08,920 fathers if for Williamsburg, which is a very tourism dependent community, everything they 424 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,680 could to paper over the Colonial Parkway murders. I believe that the National Park 425 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:18,440 Service did everything they could to cover up those murders, and I believe that 426 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:26,119 the economic interests of Colonial Williamsburg, etc. Were also one of the reasons 427 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,960 why a lot of people, even several years later, had never heard of 428 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:36,440 the Colonial Parkway murders. Given the fact that Cape Cod and Provincetown have very 429 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:42,039 similar economic drivers where it's a tourism related area, do you feel like the 430 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:49,359 fact that the Costas story never really achieved the same level of visibility as save 431 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:55,680 Manson do you think that the economic drivers of Cape Cod had anything to do 432 00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:57,880 with that? Yeah, I think Before I answer that question, Bill, 433 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,039 I just want to say, for your loss, what was your sister's man. 434 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,519 My sister's Kathy Thomas. She's a United States Naval Academy graduate, and 435 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:09,599 she and her girlfriend, Rebecca Dawski are the first two victims in the Colonial 436 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,920 Parkway murders, which we talk about on mind Over. I'm sorry sorry to 437 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,759 hear that. Oh, thank you, and thank you for talking a little 438 00:32:16,799 --> 00:32:21,160 bit about her. I do think that given the fact that you've got two 439 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,880 areas that rely heavily on tourism, I think that does factor into it. 440 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,079 Kid Cod relies on tourist money, and it was interesting that I think the 441 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:32,759 town fathers were trying to downplay these murders. The first time that one of 442 00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:38,279 the women whose bodies is uncovered in a shallow grave is even reported on I 443 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:43,960 think it was page twenty seven in the Boston Globe. Now that absolutely insane 444 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,400 that they'd be relegated to the back pages of a major newspaper. Today they 445 00:32:47,559 --> 00:32:52,759 have it splashed on the front page or other bylined articles. But I think 446 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:54,799 the town fathers tried to keep it quiet. But I do think that people 447 00:32:54,839 --> 00:33:00,200 took advantage of it as well, because there were people trying to sell sam 448 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,039 from the crime scenes right on the highway for six an take. God, 449 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,920 but it reminds me Bill of that scene in Jobs, where you've got the 450 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,920 mayor saying that the beaches are going to be open this weekend. It's got 451 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,000 to be beautiful. And I do think that there was a little of that, 452 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,680 certainly, probably in putting both cases. Oh yes, that's a great 453 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,000 comparison. Absolutely. So. You probably don't want to go into a ton 454 00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:27,880 of detail about your next project, but can you tell us a little bit 455 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,039 about your next projects? Sure, it's a story that unfolded Los Angeles and 456 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:37,440 the nineteen, very shocking murder that brings in Hollywood glamour and kind of the 457 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960 golden era of gangsterism. Yes, and that was great already. I'm a 458 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,319 big fan of Valley Confidential, both as a book as a film. My 459 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,680 agent and I have been looking at different projects that might mirror that story a 460 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,039 little bit, and we think we've landed on one, and I'm starting to 461 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,519 work on that project very soon. So this would be a book first, 462 00:33:55,559 --> 00:34:00,400 and then hopefully a book first. Yes, I've been very four it in 463 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,319 my career to have my books adapted into films. A Patriot Stay with Mark 464 00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:07,519 Wahlberg was based on my book Boston Strong and the Finest Hours, which is 465 00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:13,559 another Kate Cod story about coast guard rescue that happened in nineteen fifty two, 466 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,320 became a big Disney movie in twenty sixteen with Chris Pine and Casey Affleck, 467 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,960 and it's very popular on Disney Plus. And that's an inspirational story about Kate 468 00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:27,199 cud And now I'm writing a dark story about Kate Cod in Helltown. But 469 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,719 there is ways to be inspired by Helltown as well, because even though we 470 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:36,760 talked about some of the people that were exploiting young women in the nineteen sixties. 471 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:40,599 I also racked focus on two investigators, Bernie Flynn and Tom Gunnery, 472 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,199 who did everything in their power to find this killer and put them behind bars. 473 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,480 And they were very tied into the families of the last two victims, 474 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,480 Pat Walsh and Mary and Ysake, so I look at them as real heroes 475 00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:59,199 in this story. And not to segue further, but I do also include 476 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,199 a chapter chap a Quintic, Yeah, because it was relevant to the case, 477 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,000 and it also spoke to this treatment of young women in nineteen sixty nine. 478 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:14,199 Yes, and I poured over twenty nine hundred pages of documentation from the 479 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,280 grand jury investigation of chap Aquintic. And I was shot on a rudding and 480 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:22,039 I grew up on Cape cod Mary Joe Popeckney should be alive today, much 481 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:25,000 of Susan Perry, Sidney Mons and Mary Nysack. And she was alive in 482 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:30,039 that oldsmobile for several hours. She affixiated, she didn't drown, And the 483 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:34,679 culprit was the US Senator named Ted Kennedy. It's such a shame and his 484 00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:38,920 level of irresponsibility is just incredible. I didn't want to move past the finest 485 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,199 hours too quickly. First of all, I loved the film, and then 486 00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:49,679 my girlfriend Pamela grew up on Cape Cod and she had never heard this story. 487 00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,239 We ended up seeing the film and really loving it, and she said, 488 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,000 how did I grow up in Barnstable and I never knew about this incredible 489 00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:00,239 rescue? That's what I said to myself. I was doing a book signing 490 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,440 and Chatham for my first book on the Boston Strangler case, and my brother 491 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:09,480 Todd had stumbled upon a very small memorial to the rescue in nineteen fifty two, 492 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,199 and he raced to my book signing and he said, I have your 493 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,239 next book. Told me what literally knew about it? Really, I went 494 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,920 to a place called Rock Harbor, where that thirty six foot wooden lifeboat stands 495 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,960 today's birth and I said, how did this little lifeboat save so many men 496 00:36:24,079 --> 00:36:30,679 that became this now international maritime phenomenon? Book and film that actually sounds like 497 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,320 something out of a movie. Right there where he comes running in and saying, 498 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:37,760 I've got your next book. You always after that Bill. I always 499 00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:43,280 anytime somebody says that I have to listen because it pays off. Wow, 500 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:49,639 that's fantastic. So the book is Helltown and the Untold Story of a serial 501 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,719 Killer on Cape cod and it was fantastic. Oh, thank you, Chris, 502 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,920 and I appreciate that. That's going to wrap it up for this episode 503 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:10,199 of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 504 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:16,360 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 505 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,760 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 506 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,960 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 507 00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:31,920 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 508 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,880 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook and finally, 509 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:42,599 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank 510 00:37:42,639 --> 00:38:01,679 you for listening to mind Over Murder. M