WEBVTT

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Big food and be on with Cliff
and Bobo. These guys, are you

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fav It's so like say subscribe and
rade it. I'm stuck and me righteous

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one wish today listening watching limb always
keep its watching. And now your hosts

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Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay,
Hey, Bobes, how you doing?

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Oh wait, you're not here.
It's just Cliff today, Cliff and all

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of our listeners. And then I
guess are a periodic guest host, Matt

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Pruet, Hey Matt, how are
you doing today? I'm doing great?

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Cool? So yeah, so Bobo's
not going to make it today. Apparently

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he is visiting his parents down there
in Manhattan Beach and all power and internets

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and all modern stuff went out basically
just less than twenty minutes ago. So

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he is sitting in the dark,
well it would be dark except this sul

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daylight right now down in manhatt Beach, hanging out with Fireball and his mom.

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And I believe his mom's a listener
to this podcast, So hi,

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Alice. Anyway, Yeah, so
Boba's not gonna be with us. He

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might be able to join us if
the power comes back on, and if

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it does not come back on.
You're just stuck with Cliff and Matt here,

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So I don't know, Matt,
do you have anything to share before

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we jump into things today? No, I'm excited about today's guest for sure.

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Oh yeah, it's gonna be a
good one. It's going to be

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a great one as far as I'm
concerned. You know, this is a

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squatch Giving week. I just want
to wish everybody a happy squatch Giving.

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I hope everybody enjoys it and has
some good family time. And if you're

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not into that sort of stuff,
I just hope you have a very,

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very very pleasant week. And of
course, other than that, why don't

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we hop into the show. Today's
guest we have on doctor Hogan Cherrow.

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He is a PhD in evolutionary anthropology
or no evolutionary, yeah, evolutionary anthro

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anthropology. He got it from Yale, so that's nothing to sneeze at.

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So there's not gonna be any sneezing
on my behalf. And he's been all

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over the place, all over the
world, working with a huge variety of

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animals, including humans. Seem to
me he kind of specializes in behavioral sort

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of stuff, and just a short
little background here. I met Hogan here

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because he came into the museum.
So he's obviously a man of exquisite taste

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and high curiosity because he came into
the Bigfoot Museum despite having a PhD in

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anthropology. Hey, hey, Hogan, welcome to the show. First of

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all, thanks for coming on.
We really do appreciate it. Thanks for

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having me. I'm happy to be
here. Very good, Very good.

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Now, I don't want to put
words in your mouth, but did I

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more or less int I mean,
I was pretty vague in my introduction,

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I admit, But did I more
or less introduct introduce you correctly? Yeah?

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Yeah, absolutely. I got a
PhD in evolutionary anthropology for Yale.

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Like you said, I studied chimpanzee
behaviorally cology in the wild for about fifteen

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years and have studied everything from grizzly
bears to gibbons to some work on humans.

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Right, So I think today on
this show, obviously we're going to

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be focusing on the primates in general, because you know, sasquatches are primates.

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We're primates, primates for everywhere we
look, you know, in some

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sort of ways, and what one
primate has, like behaviorally speaking, is

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often echoed in other species, and
I thought that would be an interesting conversation

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because and now correct me if I'm
wrong again, and feel free to do

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that for as long as you know
me, feel free to correct me if

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I'm wrong. But you are not
one hundred percent sold the sasquatches are real

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animals. But perhaps you're open to
the idea. Is that an accurate depiction

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of your belief system? Yeah,
I grew up here in the Pacific Northwest.

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My dad was a hunting and fishing
guide, so I've spent my entire

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life basically in the woods here when
I'm not off on some other continent,

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and have loved the sasquatch lore forever. Have always loved the idea that sasquatches

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out there, but am pretty skeptical. But I also, as I used

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to always tell my students when I
was teaching, never say never in biology,

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because as soon as you do,
somebody's going to catch a selacant off

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the coast of Madagascar, and your
whole idea of things that's going to be

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shot. So I keep an open
mind, and as you should in science,

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if we get new data that's that's
compelling and convincing. Then you shift

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your your thinking on things. Okay, so since you're not, you're not

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You're not there yet with the bigfoot
thing, which is totally understandable. I

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encourage everyone, including our listeners,
to be very skeptical about everything because if

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you look at the media, it's
full of hogwash. If you look at

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the Internet, it's full of hogwash
in general. And people are out there

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proclaiming very loudly about ridiculous things they
claim sasquatches that they are able to do

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and all this stuff. So there's
lots of reasons to remain skeptical. But

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for you personally first and then secondly, for the scientific establishment in general,

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what do you think are the biggest
obstacles between you and an acceptance of a

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theoretical acceptance of the species. So
you personally and then the scientific establishment me

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personally, probably is is maybe a
lower bar for my personal thoughts than it

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would be for you know, consensus
among say biologists or or evolutionary anthropologists.

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For me, I think it would
be some sort of really compelling evidence,

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and I guess, like most people, I would like to have some sort

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of personal experience with that. I
will say, when I was visiting you

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in the in your museum that some
of the prints that you showed me,

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some of the casts that you had
made were very thought provoking, I'll put

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it that way. They definitely were
not easily explained and really thought provoking.

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So I really appreciated that for the
scientific community. I mean, you know,

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it's been people have been saying for
years, it's going to take a

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body. I don't. I don't
don't think necessarily it would take a cadaver

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or even a body part, as
much as it would take what was it

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a month or so ago, you
guys had had an episode where you were

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talking about the DNA project back at
I think North in North Carolina. Yeah,

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that Darby Orchid is like the first
university sponsored DNA study out there that

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might unravel the Sasquatch mystery for everybody. So you think DNA might be able

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to do that for us? Well, I think for some folks that would

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be compelling that there's something out there. But but I do think they're kind

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of you know, the old school
died in the wool. They want to

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they want a body to examine folks. Still, it's hard to say what

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would convince the science. You know, when you say the scientific community,

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because it's not. It's not one
homogeneous voting block. You know. They

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they they've all got their different perspectives. I mean, if you go and

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talk to a morphologist, they want
they want body parts. A geneticist is

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they're cool at DNA. And so
I think, you know, it depends

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on what discipline they're coming from that
sort of thing. I think it will

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take a lot though. Yeah,
and you know, the neat thing about

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that, and and the sad thing
and also in some ways, because there's

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no blessing without being a curse in
some sort of way, you know.

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So the a thing about that is
if somebody, say Darby in his study

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over their North Carolina University get gets
some sort of DNA that they go,

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no, this is it, this
is the it's a done deal. That'll

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mean a lot to geneticists. And
I had that conversation with doctor Todd Dissattel

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out there when he was at New
York University. He's in Massachusetts at a

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different institution. Now, Yeah,
he's a good friend. Oh really,

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well, my god to say say
hello, we'd love to have him on

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the show sometimes too. I haven't, I haven't spoken to him. For

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a few years. But I was
talking to him and say, you know,

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if if you did get solid DNA, it would mostly mean stuff to

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DNA nerds, and then the rest
of us be going, well, I

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believe you, because you're in a
position of authority, but what does that

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mean to us? And really the
next few steps would be okay, Well,

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they would go out and they would
obtain a specimen. So the first

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domino to fall might be the DNA
thing, but it won't be the last

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domino. Because you can only tell
so much about an animal by its DNA

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or a or a hair or something
like that. You kind of have to

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have a body in some ways to
learn about what they're doing, because an

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animal's anatomy reflects its behavior so strongly. Well, and you know, I

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mean a great example of that is
and you and I talked a little bit

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about different hominin species when I was
visiting you. There A great example of

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that are the Denisovins. You know, that population that has been identified simply

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by DNA, and they don't have
any strong morphological markers that would distinguish them.

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They don't have enough samples, and
so you have a lot of speculation

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of what they were like, what
did they do? And we just know

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they were a different kind of human. We don't know anything beyond that at

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this point. So I think that's
a great example right there. The other

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thing you're going to I think you'll
get, let's say hypothetically that there is

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that they do discover DNA that points
to a primate species in North America that

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cannot be identified as any other,
and it's really solid, and let's say

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it was Todd's lab. That doesn't
Todd. Todd is a fantastic scientist and

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has a great reputation. Even there, you would get people who would push

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back and say, how old is
the DNA and how are you proving that?

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What you know? And so you'd
have speculation and speculation. So you're

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absolutely right, it's it may be
the first domino, it won't be the

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last one. Now, a lot
of different dominos will fall with that.

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Type specimen will be collected. In
fact, I mean, I hate to

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say it, numerous type specimens will
be collected. I don't think there's any

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way around that, because I of
course a long term ecological study is going

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to have to be undertaken to study
them, and gosh, I mean scientists

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aren't going to take you know,
my data. Maybe my data is because

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I have I'm associated with the museum, even though it's my museum. They'll

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probably take doctor Meldrum's data. They'll
probably maybe some of the stuff on the

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BFRO might be useful. But I
think from the scientific perspective, virtually all

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of the information that has been collected
beforehand may be of slight interest. But

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they're going to start from ground zero
because they don't know the quality of the

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investigators who collected it. What do
you think about that thought? Oh,

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absolutely, it'll again, you know, hypothetically, if there's this evidence out

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there and then people are able to
actually identify a population and start and then

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you start around the process of studying
it, it'll be similar, I think

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to the early days before George Schaller
went to study mountain gorillas, and people

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had been there. There had been
naturalists who had gone in and tried to

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observe about a gorilla populations. There
had been people who had written books about

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them, but there wasn't a scientific
study where the methods are clearly laid out

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and can be repeated. And that's
one of the big keys is is you

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know, people have to be able
to go in and use the same methodology

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and a different observer get the same
result for something to be scientifically valid.

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So I think that's that's where that
kind of quality control would would come in.

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Now, of course, now we're
not dealing with you know, like

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atoms for example, We're not dealing
with a plant species. We're dealing with

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highly individualistic well animals, intelligence,
sentient animals, And I think I think

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it's very I don't think I think
it's very reasonable for me to make that

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assumption about sasquatches, because I think
that's also true of all the other great

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ape species, that they are individuals, and they all have their own temperament

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and experience that builds their personalities and
whatnot. What sort of experiments can you

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envision that are repeatable that would be
applicable to something like an unknown great ape

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species. I wouldn't say experiment so
much as like when we do behavioral ecology

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studies, you go in with a
set methodology, You've got it laid out.

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Let's say you're going to do well, here's here's a here's a great

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one that I think could be implemented
in areas like you and I discussed where

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you talked about the area that that
you go to. If you set up

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transsext studies where you're walking the same
path every every single month, you walk

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the same set course and you're recording
every single animal that you see in that

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in that course. If you do
that over enough time, you get a

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large enough sample size where now you
can have a sort of snapshot of what

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animals are in that ecology. And
that's something that I think could be adopted

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by groups right now that are out
there trying to trying to find good evidence

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of sasquatch. They could start using
those same methodologies. Those are all published,

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Those are all really easy to find
when we do. A primatologist named

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Gene Altman in the seventies laid out
guideline for behavioral observation that most people still

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use some form of today, where
you go in and either you're doing timed

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samples so every fifteen minutes you're recording
everything that you observe, or you're doing

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scan samples, or you're doing on
and on. There are lots of different

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ways to do it, but this
is a way to have a structure where

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I can do it and then two
years later you can go into the same

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area and you can do it,
and then we can compare results. Now

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you're comparing apples to apples and not
apples to oranges. Stay tuned for more

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Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back after these messages.

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Now. One of the as you're
talking about this, because I'm always

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looking to up my game always,
you know, there's I I'm always trying

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to do a better job than I'm
already doing, and especially with simple things,

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you know, because the simple things
are easiest to implement. As I'm

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listening to you and thinking, okay, well, I'm kind of doing that.

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Now. I've got a place I
call the mud Road. I go

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there, I walk it. It's
really it's easy to get it out of

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there. You can find footprints there. I found them many, many times

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there. Think I found cast three
prints there this year, for example,

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but back in February, almost a
here ago now, And I'm thinking,

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well, that's all fine and good. But I think the Sasquatch I personally

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believe, and I don't have evidence
of this, but this is just what

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I'm going with. The Sasquatches know
where people walk there and they may cross

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the roads, but they're not.
But if they're in the area, they're

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could be observing the roads. How
do you deal with a or are there

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any methodologies that come to mind where
that one might be able, I might

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be able to implement in these research
areas that somehow accommodate for the subject of

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the study studying the observer back.
Yeah, that's a that's a good question,

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man, that's a hell of a
question. It's I think honestly that

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behavioral observation gets more and more challenging
the more intelligent the species is and the

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more aware the species is that you're
studying. And that's why, you know,

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for really good behavioral studies we go
for full habituation. For example,

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the chimpanzees I studied for years adding
Go Go and Kibali National Park in Uganda.

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They're the if you've seen the Netflix
series Chimp Empire, they're the chimps

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from that series. They were just
expertly habituated to the point where you could

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be as close to them as you
wanted to be. For a lot of

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the especially a lot of the males. Males are less skittish than the females

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typically, but a lot of the
females got there too, where you could

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be as close to them as you
wanted, so you could make all sorts

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of observations, and they just went
about their day for the most part.

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You know, every once in a
while, you'll be on a trail,

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they'll come walking down a trail.
You've got this meeting of the primates,

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and you just kind of stand still
and they walk around you like you're another

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tree or something. And there were
and there were some who were old enough

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when they started getting habituated, they
were never going to be habituated, so

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you're gonna have that variation in a
population. There were some that were babies

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when they started habituating, and they
were almost over habituated, like they were

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too used to humans. So you
got to you gotta keep your distance,

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and and we had some really good
rules about making sure we never got too

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close to them, making sure that
we kept a good distance from them.

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One, because we don't want to
be had that observer effect on their behavior

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if we can avoid it. The
other part, too, is that,

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of course all the grade apes are
susceptible to all the respiratory diseases that we

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get, and very often they don't
have the same immune responses, so it

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can be dangerous that way. But
yeah, I think there are that's a

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real challenge. I think in your
case, if you're out there looking for

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something that that may be observing you, you know, and I would say

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this is this is similar to a
lot of folks who do work on bears,

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bears, wolves, the a lot
of the carnivores big relatively big brains.

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They're they're good observers of what's going
on. They'll watch you and and

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a lot of times they will simply
avoid you. There again, and I've

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heard you say this on your on
your previous show and on this podcast that

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you know and you just talked about
you went up and walked and didn't see

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anything. You just gotta you just
gotta kind of know that there are days

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when you're not going to get anything. But I think if you're out there

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long enough, and this is where
long term studies on any large animal are

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really important. If you're out there
long enough walking the same track where they

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get used to you were, you
were doing the same path and and usually

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it's a it's a transect. And
we could talk about more more about that

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off offline or something of like larger
grids to set up. But if you're

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walking that then they can get used
to your presence. And that's why that's

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another part of the reason why doing
it at the same time every time that

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you go out, Like I had
a colleague of mine in Africa who did

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a census every single month, and
he started at four thirty in the morning,

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simply because the first time that was
done, it was started at four

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thirty in the morning, and so
he kept that up. And it had

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been that particular census had been going
for over a decade. But they had

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this amazing long term track of how
many animals you know, of each species

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they saw each month, and that
gave them an indication of how the ecology

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is doing overall health wise, but
also how those individual species are doing.

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Does it have to be a visual
sighting of the animal or can you count

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tracks as far as that goes well, I think uh, I think that

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depends on what your your goals are
and what your methodology is. From the

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beginning, the judge the ecosystem.
Though, if I'm finding bear tracks,

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that's probably a pretty good sign,
but I would have to see a bear

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to make it count to judge an
ecological health for example. Yeah, so

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so a lot of them will.
Uh, you have different categories. So

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you have presence of the animal and
that can be vocal, so auditory presence

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or by the tracks. And then
and then you have another category in your

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database of sighting. Yeah, for
what I've heard about about sasquatch, I

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think that the different sounds, the
howls, the tree knocks, you would

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do a category for each of those, and then and then also record,

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you know, for if you see
a cougar, if you see whatever,

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whatever the case is, how many
deer you see, how many squirrels you

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see. The main thing is being
incredibly vigilant about like not just going yeah,

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another chipmunk, but doing a tick
mark for all of them. Right,

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you know that advice is on smack
dab square on to probably the best

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bigfooting advice I'd ever been given by
a good friend and a witness and someone

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who has lived at a place where
sasquatches were frequenting. Or when I say

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frequenting, it could be like once
or twice a month, not actually that

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frequent, but for bigfoot that's pretty
often. You know. His name's Dennis

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Fole. He has been a guest
on the podcast. Then he told me

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one time, the best thing you
can do is go to the same place,

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dress the same way, drive the
same car. When you're there,

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do the same routine, go to
bed at the same time, do everything

284
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the same time, and over many
many many months, probably many years,

285
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they will eventually get used to you
and perhaps let their guard down a bit,

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which sounds to me like exactly what
you're talking about here. Yeah,

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if you know, if anyone out
there really wants to is you know you're

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budding budding squatchers out there for me. Read Jane Goodall's book In the Shadow

289
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a Man. Read her book The
Chimpanzees of Gombe, which is filled with

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data tough in some in some places
for some folks to read through, but

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where she describes what it was like
the first three years that she was at

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Gombe and how you know she was
out following chimps just relentlessly. She and

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her field assistance, I mean the
site where I worked at for years.

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The two main researchers there are just
incredible scientists and incredible primatologists and have set

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up this really great regiment and field
assistants are out with the chimpanzees every single

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day, and the field assistants all
have uniforms that have been provided to them,

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so they're wearing the same basic clothes
every day. They go out with

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their backpacks, they've got their clipboards, they've got the same gear every day.

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You know, it's not new people
coming in, because the chimps do

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notice that. I mean when I
first got there, I think physically I

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might have been the largest mass human
that they had seen up until that point.

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And so they definitely responded a little
differently to oh, what's this new

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animal in the forest that's bigger than
the other ones. And actually we had

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a former NFL offensive lineman who went
and visited one of the researchers at that

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site, and apparently the chimpanzees responded
almost like they do when a buffalo comes

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into the forest. When that came
walking through, you know, he was

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six six three twenty plus, and
and that was something that they had never

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seen before. See, Yeah,
I think I think that's great advice.

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Something you said just also resonates with
me because another piece of it or another

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maybe not advice, but a little
tidbit shared to me by Dennis Fole.

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Again, Dennis told me that there
was a situation out in Colorado where a

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family started seeing a sasquatch on the
property occasionally. Little girl ran into it.

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First was it was licking the sap
off of a cut log apparently in

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this log pile. When she ran
across it, the two encountered each other

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from at a short distance, and
she they both turned and ran. Basically,

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she came inside talking about the monkey
man, and of course mom and

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dad were going, that's that's cute, sweetie things. And then like within

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a couple of days, the female
who was living there, the adult female,

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the woman was, started finding footprints
in her garden outside of her windows,

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you know, so the thing was
coming around to look inside their house.

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In that they figured it out pretty
quick, and over about a year

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or more. I think they ended
up casting I don't know. I saw

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pictures. I never counted them.
I would say forty to sixty footprints or

324
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something like that, like quite a
few, quite a few. Yeah,

325
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And so Dennis was studying that,
if I remember right back in the day,

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and he said that first three or
four times he showed up, they

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would say, you know, he
lives in Colorado as well. The first

328
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:27.119
time he's show up like nothing would
happen, He'd spent the night there,

329
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nothing happened, This would happened,
happened many many times. And then they

330
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clewed in and say, oh,
you know what, he parked a couple

331
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of miles down the road and then
got a ride to the house by the

332
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owners and that's when activity started.
So again, the Sasquatches were aware that

333
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a new person was there and then
didn't act accordingly essentially, or did act

334
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:49.640
accordingly according to their own behavior and
didn't really put on you know, didn't

335
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.880
give an indication of their presence until
they were much more clandestine about it.

336
00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:59.240
Yeah, well that makes sense for
an intelligent animal. But you know what,

337
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another none or thought came to me
while you were talking about doing the

338
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same thing every single time. It's
very and I'm in contact with a couple

339
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:11.079
of different I don't like to say
habituators because in bigfoot land, that's taken

340
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.400
on a life of its own.
It means all this other stuff. And

341
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I think in a more appropriate term
is like a long term witness, you

342
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.759
know, I think that's a much
more appropriate term. But uh, I

343
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work with a couple of long term
witnesses and it seems that when the routine

344
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is broken is when they get like
actual visual sighting reports where because again the

345
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Sasquatches know the family that lives there
and they've got it all wired, and

346
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when they do something out of the
ordinary that seems like that's very often when

347
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a sighting might occur, or at
least let me let me actually, that's

348
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.799
perhaps exactly backwards. Sightings seem to
occur. When there is a sighting,

349
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it is very often in conjunction with
the family or the individual breaking the behavior.

350
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So perhaps a good way to go
forward would be to set behavior down

351
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.160
and do the same thing as you
were saying, and then once that routine

352
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is established every third or fourth time, do something different in the middle of

353
00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:12.720
it and surprise any potential observers.
And maybe that would be an interesting way

354
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:18.359
to run across one of these things. Yeah, it'd be interesting to know

355
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:25.880
what the nature of those sightings were, because my guess is, again,

356
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:32.279
if you've got a large intelligent primate, they're curious about why you're doing something

357
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different, They're curious about what went
wrong there, and so you might get

358
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.039
you know, like I would say, in the in African apes, you'll

359
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.319
see this where sometimes they'll kind of
check you out a little more like,

360
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:51.160
well, that's weird, you know, if you want to anthropomorphize what's going

361
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on in their in their brain,
they kind of have a quizzical look where

362
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they're well, huh, and I
know, oh that like for example,

363
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I know, you know, for
when the rainy season hits and the first

364
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:11.880
time someone breaks out their parka and
they haven't worn a parka all. You

365
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:14.759
know, they've been there for several
months and there they haven't worn a parka,

366
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.640
and now suddenly they put a park
on. All the chimps want to

367
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take a look and see, like, what is that thing? Is it

368
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.559
the And then then I think they
come to the realization that it's the same

369
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:32.279
weird animal that keeps following us every
day and doesn't seem to eat and doesn't

370
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:36.960
seem to want to kill us.
So I guess it's okay, h which

371
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is? Which is? That's kind
of how I always characterize like when they

372
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become habituated, is when they get
to the point where they realize, oh,

373
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they just don't seem to do anything, so we'll just ignore them.

374
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I ed always tell my students they've
got more important things to do. Like

375
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they've got to they've got to eat, they've got to find mates, they've

376
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got to avoid real predators. They've
you know, they've got a jockey for

377
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in chimp and z case, they
have to jockey for position within the society.

378
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:07.880
So you know, they they you
can only be bothered with this weird

379
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.759
thing that's following you around for so
long. Yeah, if it's not important

380
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.359
to your trip, then why you
know, then it's not important at all?

381
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.200
Really then that in that sort of
way. And certainly we don't represent

382
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:26.839
food to sasqua I mean to chimpanzees, hopefully not to most sasquatches. So

383
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.240
yeah, I think we're just items
of curiosity, I think to a lot

384
00:29:29.319 --> 00:29:33.400
of the great apes. I would
imagine stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond

385
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:44.839
with Cliff and Bogo will be right
back after these messages. One family lives

386
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:47.960
up in the Port Angeles area in
Washington. I work with them quite often.

387
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.839
I found I found in cast footprints
on their property just a few months

388
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.720
ago, and there and then they've
become very very good friends of mine over

389
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.319
the years as well. They were
out on there on the on the driveway,

390
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.359
I guess outside their home at like
one in the morning. You know,

391
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.599
they've got a little girl that lives
there, but they're never out at

392
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.400
one in the morning. But they
were out one in the morning, lying

393
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:12.519
on the back on their backs watching
the Percy meteor shower, you know,

394
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:18.319
a few months ago, beautiful night
and everything. And I guess they got

395
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:19.440
approached by one of these things.
They didn't see it that night, but

396
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.480
that they're pretty sure that's what it
was. They heard some noises off in

397
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:27.319
the brush and then like like stomping
and stuff like bluff charging in a way,

398
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:32.079
or just kind of a bunch of
heavy noises that seemed out of character

399
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.880
for the other possible animals in the
area, And so they said, whoa,

400
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.039
what the hell is that? And
they all went inside, you know,

401
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.519
obviously, because sasquatches are scary no
matter what people think about them.

402
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.559
They're frightening animals when they're actually there. And then they heard a weird noise,

403
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.039
which that's something I want to ask
you about. They heard a noise

404
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.240
that they interpreted, if I remember
correctly, as almost sounding like laughter.

405
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:57.440
I know, apes smile. I
know apes probably laugh. Tell me about

406
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.680
that, Like, what do you
know about ape? After and maybe senses

407
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:06.599
of humor, because sasquatches just seem
to exhibit such a thing. Maybe not

408
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:11.119
laughter, but they certainly I interpret
some of the things that people have reported

409
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:12.839
to me as perhaps having a sense
of humor, because I know my dog

410
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:18.480
does I see my dog having a
sense of humor sometime. Yeah. So

411
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:25.680
some non wild examples that are really
good videos that you could check out easily

412
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.200
on YouTube is look up cocoa tickling, you know the you know coco,

413
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:36.599
the gorilla, the sign language gorilla. Yeah, that was actually one of

414
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:41.759
her favorite things since she was a
baby, was she would ask to get

415
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.799
tickles. And when she does,
and I've seen I've actually seen chips do

416
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:52.440
this do this behavior in the wild, her response is like an open mouth

417
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:59.160
with the lips kind of covering the
canines and almost like a silent laugh,

418
00:31:59.319 --> 00:32:02.759
like you know, everybody's got that
friend that when they go to laugh,

419
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.359
they just don't make any sound and
you just and you look at him like

420
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:12.640
what's wrong with you? Initially until
you get used to it. That's what

421
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:19.119
I've seen happen. And it's not
really so much like like we would interpret

422
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:24.519
it, where there's sort of the
punchline or a specific event that causes that.

423
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:31.759
It's more enjoyment of an activity.
So, for example, one day,

424
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:37.319
I was out with about thirty male
chimps and we're out just kind of

425
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:43.240
hanging out and they're grooming and doing
their thing, and this one of the

426
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.039
largest male chimps in the community,
one of the highest ranking also highest ranking

427
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:53.160
males. He started playing chase with
one of the juvenile males around a tree,

428
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:59.039
just grabbing his foot and they were
just chasing each other in a circle

429
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.839
around the tree, and he just
kept grabbing his foot over and over,

430
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:13.279
and they both were doing this laugh
where they both were going and with their

431
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.039
teeth covered, showing that they were
enjoying the activity. And there was no

432
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:22.359
threat because I mean, that big
male could have destroyed that juvenile in a

433
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:27.079
heartbeat if he'd wanted to, and
he was showing that he's not a threat.

434
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.480
He wants to play. And that
was one of the first times that

435
00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:34.880
I saw them what I would call
laugh in the wild. But they definitely

436
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:42.039
do that. But I haven't heard
a laughter from any apes that is similar

437
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:47.160
to a big belly laugh by a
human or anything like that. I don't

438
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.720
know of any animals that have that
kind of. And I think that's probably

439
00:33:52.839 --> 00:34:00.279
because humans have taken humor and laughter
to a whole different level than most of

440
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.279
their animal than probably every other animal
where you know, I mean, we

441
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:08.000
have people who make millions of dollars
every year just by making us laugh,

442
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:16.000
Like it's a it's a treasured skill
and art form among humans and a noble

443
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:21.119
profession. For sure. It does
make sense that apes making sounds that have

444
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:25.280
some sort of like repetitive nature that
just reminds us of laughter, because you

445
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.440
know, humor is so context dependent, and it's really context dependent within like

446
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.880
the human social or almost even like
psychosocial realm, that it would be a

447
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.199
stretch to think that what would be
funny to a human would be funny to

448
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.440
a sasquatch. But you could imagine
if they did engage in producing sounds like

449
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.039
something like a pant hoot in a
certain situation, that someone might hear that,

450
00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:51.159
you know, and think that it
was analogous to laughter. Oh the

451
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.760
thing is laughing at me, when
it's really you know, like you said,

452
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:59.360
anthropomorphizing that. So I know people
claim experiences along those lines, but

453
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.480
probably just hearing what are very different
vocalizations that are motivated by a very different

454
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:08.400
sort of emotional basis or tied to
some other portion of the limbic system that

455
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:14.199
has nothing to do with like abstract
humor. Yeah, the thing I interpreted

456
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:17.880
about the Persea shower story I just
kind of relayed to you is I think

457
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:22.280
that the family broke the routine.
They were not in the place where they

458
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.719
were to be expected at the time
when the thing walked by. If assuming

459
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.119
it was a sasquatch, which I
think it probably was in this case,

460
00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.440
the family was doing stuff that was
completely out of the ordinary, laying on

461
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:37.480
their back on a blanket one in
the morning in the dark, looking up.

462
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.519
I think it probably like they're going, what the and so like,

463
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.440
if it was a sasquatch, it
may have just said this is not your

464
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:49.639
time and place here, like this
is my time and place here, did

465
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.360
some stuff that sounded scary because it
sounded like very large animal doing breaking stuff

466
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:58.559
and all that sort of thing,
and they all went inside. And then

467
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.119
maybe that was a victory thing like
you know, oh I got got got

468
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:05.800
you inside sort of thing. Maybe
it was a laugh. I don't know.

469
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:07.199
I don't know, but but it
seems I interpret it is more like

470
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.199
you don't belong here right now.
You know better than this. We have

471
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:14.159
an agreement get inside. That's how
I kind of took it. But I

472
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:16.480
don't know, again, that's just
anthromro morphizing even more so. Well,

473
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:20.639
and you know, we there's there's
definitely a long history of that. I

474
00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:23.159
mean, the first chimp that ever
got shot up into space. When he

475
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.440
came back, they reported that he
enjoyed space travel so much he couldn't you

476
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:35.440
couldn't wipe the smile off his face
and completely misunderstandable that that's a fear grimace

477
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.760
in a chimpanzee. He was scared
out of his mind. And and so

478
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:45.320
you know, but to us,
there there's no bigger indication that that you've

479
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.639
enjoyed your time. And uh and
so yeah, I think I think there's

480
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:52.639
something to what both of you guys
are saying. I mean, I think

481
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:57.119
I think absolutely, Matt, there's
there's times when we put on you know,

482
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:00.320
we do that with with our dogs, do that with animals in the

483
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:08.880
wild. But then there's also I
think Cliff, you're hit on something with

484
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:13.239
any big animal. I mean,
you know, I don't know if that

485
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:15.320
was a sasquatch, it could have
been a black bear. Black bear comes

486
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:20.039
in and there's humans on the porch
when they're not normally there, it's gonna

487
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:24.679
stomp its feet and make noises and
try and scare away those things that aren't

488
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:30.639
there at night, because now they're
dangerous. But I also think there's the

489
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:37.079
interesting thing about the apes is that
things like tickles, things like summer salting

490
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:44.199
down a trail, which I've watched
seven male adult male chimpanzees do as they

491
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:49.519
were walking down a trail from one
food source to another for no reason at

492
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.320
all. One of them started some
resulting, and the other six started following

493
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:58.840
his lead, and we're all just
summersaulting right in a row, and they

494
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:05.239
all were laughing the whole time.
They all were doing that open mouth the

495
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:12.159
whole time, playing chase, tickling. All those things are things that quite

496
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:16.320
honestly, are enjoyable to every primate
except maybe like a tarsier. But I

497
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:22.320
would bet that even tarsiars find it
enjoyable. But humans definitely do. And

498
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:27.239
so that's what I find kind of
interesting, is that where there's this,

499
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:34.119
they are obviously enjoying themselves. They
are obviously making sounds that they don't make

500
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:40.400
in other context, that they're all
taking as friendly sounds and in the case

501
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:47.280
of the seven adult males somersaulting like
that's just a waste of energy for a

502
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:52.960
wild animal, but they're doing it, and it wasn't like there was a

503
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:59.519
tumbling team that taught them, how
you know. So those things to me

504
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:04.760
are really interesting, how you have
that kind of universality of things that are

505
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.800
enjoyable. I've even taken reports of
juvenile sasquatches doing somersaults while playing with each

506
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:14.079
other. So yeah, universal through
all the primates. So, speaking of

507
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:16.800
noises, I want to talk a
little bit about language because there's a big

508
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.920
debate in the bigfoot world whether sasquatches
are talking to each other or not.

509
00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:24.280
Certainly they're communicating, I mean,
and again, forgive me, but I

510
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:28.519
am talking from a position where I
am confident sasquatches are real. So I'm

511
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:32.320
gonna basically say certainly they're communicating,
even though to be more cautious that if

512
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:35.440
I had a PhD, i'd watch
my what do what I say a little

513
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.599
bit more, but I don't.
So so just so you know, I'm

514
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:43.239
gonna forgive the way I speak,
but I'm I'm confident of my own delusion.

515
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.559
I guess so anyway, sasquatches are
communicating to some degree, because if

516
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:51.840
they are, if they're out there
doing wood knocks or whoops or these long

517
00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.360
howls as I believe they do,
they're they're probably not doing it to themselves.

518
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.920
They're not talking to themselves. So
they're communicating in some way or another.

519
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.280
But there's this entire other layer of
communication that may be going on that

520
00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:09.280
may be language or some sort of
proto language or faux language or something like

521
00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:15.440
that. It might even be just
nonsense gibber jabber. Because from my elementary

522
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:20.039
school teaching days, when I was
learning about language acquisition, that is an

523
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:24.079
important step towards language with infants,
is that the babbling that they do,

524
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:30.639
or even mothers and fathers that if
they go do like make noises at their

525
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:35.440
infant children, that is actually building
blocks. Those are the building blocks of

526
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:39.880
language that And I think that if
you look very closely at human growth,

527
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:45.199
you know, through their infancy into
being a child, into young adulthood,

528
00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:49.079
to adulthood, I think you can
see a lot of other eight behavior in

529
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:52.679
there if you have the eyes to
see it. And I'm curious about your

530
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:58.880
thoughts of anything, any input you
might have about language in the Great Apes,

531
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:00.920
because you mentioned Coco about the sign
language a little while ago, and

532
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:05.440
there's even a debate in this in
the Anthra in the primatology world, like

533
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:07.800
is that real language? And I
it seems silly to me at this point

534
00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:13.280
because she comes up with ideas and
reacts to things that are novel in her

535
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.800
environment by you know, by using
sign language. It seems like it's language

536
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:21.239
at this point. But there's this
holdout of like, no, that's just

537
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.599
an animal, it can't be language. What are your thoughts about language and

538
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:27.840
the Great Apes. Yeah, I've
actually done a fair amount of work on

539
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.599
this, and so a couple of
things I'll say right off the right off,

540
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:38.199
the bat apes definitely communicate at a
level that I don't think we can

541
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:42.719
fully understand. And I don't think
they're alone there. I think lots of

542
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:49.719
animals do that just verbally, not
not not even just talking about body language

543
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.639
or any sort of you know,
ultrasonic subsonic sort of sort of communication,

544
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:59.960
just verbally. I think that there
are lots of things that we don't quite

545
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:07.760
understand. For example, it seems
that within the last few years ten years

546
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:15.320
or so, we've started to get
that chimpanzees make different long calls depending on

547
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:20.920
the type of food that's available.
So if there are monkeys there and they

548
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:23.840
want to hunt monkeys, it's a
slightly different call than if it's a bunch

549
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:30.039
of fruit, and that may vary
in intensity, or it may vary in

550
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:36.719
the actual type of call. And
I don't think we have the data to

551
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.800
be able to say which of those
right now. That's just sort of what

552
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:45.960
we're starting to understand. So there's
that level where I think, forget American

553
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:52.679
sign language or using symbols or anything
else. They've got their own thing going

554
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:58.239
on. The other thing, and
you know, you said this at the

555
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.039
beginning, Cliff, when you were
talking about individuals, the other thing we

556
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:08.719
need to remember is that these individuals
are going to have different capabilities. To

557
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:14.199
put it bluntly, there are some
that aren't as bright as others. There's

558
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:17.800
some that aren't going to catch on
as quickly as others, and there are

559
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.840
some that are going to be more
creative than others. So those are kind

560
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:28.880
of chimpanzees listening aren't insulted right now, by the way. If they are,

561
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.559
they they probably know where to find
me, because they're they're pretty special

562
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:37.599
chips that they're listening right now.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, because

563
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:42.280
I'm not totally certain about this,
but I know that there's a large number

564
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:46.159
of chimpanzee vocalizations that are essentially involuntary, that are like directly tied to the

565
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:50.199
limbic system, and so they're sort
of, for lack of a better word,

566
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.800
like emotional responses, and I know
some of those seem to be almost

567
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:57.599
like not deleterious or maladaptive, but
you know, I know that, for

568
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:00.280
example, there's an involuntary sort of
vocal that they produce if they were to

569
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:05.239
stumble upon, you know, a
large food resource that you know, would

570
00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.440
be more advantageous to the individual if
he could hoard it for himself, but

571
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:13.199
instead he produces an involuntary cry and
then everyone, oh, hey, there's

572
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:16.480
food over there. And so are
there vocalizations that they produce that do seem

573
00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:21.280
to be under voluntary control? Or
is that true of any of the apes

574
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:25.400
or are most of the ape vocalizations
mostly like these sort of involuntary Olympic system

575
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.920
productions. I would say that in
the thirty five hundred plus hours that I've

576
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:38.239
spent in the forest with chimpanzees,
I've watched them constrain them themselves from making

577
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:44.639
sounds when it could be really dangerous. For example, if they're on a

578
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:52.679
territorial boundary patrol and they're out and
they say, come across signs of other

579
00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:55.840
chimpanzees where they've urinated at the base
of a tree, or they've defecated,

580
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:06.199
or they hear them. I've watched
them come together again that open mouth expression

581
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:13.559
but silent, where normally if you're
within their territory and they have that kind

582
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:21.639
of excitement level, they're they're making
small screams and they're vocalizing to each other.

583
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:30.360
I've watched them voluntarily control those sounds
and restrain themselves. Yeah, there

584
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:32.840
was one paper i'd read. I
just pulled it up. I had a

585
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.719
sort of like a reference repository here
about like differential use of vocal and gestural

586
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.760
communication by chimpanzees in response to the
attentional status of a human. And so

587
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.119
it did have a bit of information
about they did seem to be observed to

588
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:51.719
modify the use of their vocalizations in
response to different attentional states of humans,

589
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:57.800
suggesting that they have some voluntary control
of their vocalizations. Yet historically primate vocalizations

590
00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:01.920
have typically been recognized as byproduct of
affective states, primarily controlled by the limbic

591
00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:06.280
system, and not under voluntary control. And so I just you know,

592
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:08.480
I'm sure there's a lot This is
from two thousand and seven, so there's

593
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.960
probably newer literature too, But I
just always thought some of those papers were

594
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:15.199
really indicative that, like, well, if we were looking at apes in

595
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:22.320
general, then you know, with
humans being exceptions, the norm would be

596
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.800
that most of the vocalizations, or
at least a significant amount, are involuntary,

597
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:30.440
and thus in the Sasquatch, we
shouldn't expect that they would have also

598
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:35.280
developed some sort of like voluntary language
or proto language or something like. I

599
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.719
try to be as conservative as possible, albeit it's hard to do as a

600
00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:45.599
Sasquatch proponent obviously, but you know, to me, it's I would rather

601
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:51.519
assume that they're producing speech like sounds
rather than know it's speech that constitutes language.

602
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:53.559
That seems kind of a stretch,
And I think you're right on.

603
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:58.119
I think you're right on in that
sense. I think I think absolutely we

604
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:07.000
should always assume the least complex and
then build from there. Stay tuned for

605
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:10.559
more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Bogo will be right back after these messages.

606
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.920
What I would say is there is
a qualitative and not just a quantitative

607
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:27.360
difference. There is a quality difference
between what humans do and what the other

608
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:30.719
primates do. But when it comes
to language, yeah, you know,

609
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:37.000
Cliff, you talked about those steps
that are important. My younger daughter when

610
00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:42.119
she was learning to learning to talk
and with a dat as a primatologist,

611
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:45.320
she was raised kind of as a
little chimp a lot of times, like

612
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:47.679
by the time she was three or
four, she could just climb up me

613
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:52.360
like a jungle gym and hop on
my shoulder. But when she was learning

614
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.559
to talk and figure out words,
you know, one of her first kind

615
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.440
of babbel words that she put together
was baba and that's still her name for

616
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.159
me today. She when she was
ten months old, she gave me that

617
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:07.519
name, and we thought it was
just babble, and we thought it was

618
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:13.199
just her her trying to put together
sounds. She decided on that, but

619
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:16.760
it was one of those steps to
being able to say mama and then everything

620
00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:22.760
else. So so it is important. But I think Cliff, you might

621
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:29.280
have had specific you know about the
language I don't know about, you know,

622
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:31.559
the purported language with Sasquatch. I
wanted, I wanted to make sure

623
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:35.639
that we got to what you wanted
to talk about there. Well, language,

624
00:48:35.639 --> 00:48:38.159
at the end of the day is
essentially symbolic, symbolic thought. These

625
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:43.320
noises that, these little small mouth
noises that come out of our face stand

626
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.800
for some a larger thing in our
brains. You know. It's a it's

627
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:51.199
a weird form of telepathy that we
have. You know. So I'm curious

628
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:59.400
about number one U Sasquatch or any
ape species ability to symbolize real things with

629
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:01.760
noises. I mean, I think
that's easily possible because I can say,

630
00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:05.760
I can say something to my dog
and she'll know that I'm talking about a

631
00:49:05.800 --> 00:49:07.880
treat, for example. You know, so that's very reasonable. But like,

632
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:13.679
did Coco for example, you brought
up Cocoa. Was could you just

633
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:19.960
have a conversation with Coco or was
it always a direct objects sort of food

634
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.559
response thing or some sort of stimuli
that made her feel good, like the

635
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:25.159
kitten or something like that, or
is it like, hey, Coco,

636
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.480
what's up? What's how's it going
today and like that level of language.

637
00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:35.960
Yeah. So so there actually been
recently, within the last six seven years,

638
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:43.559
there have been some really nice video
studies looking at the language studies of

639
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:47.280
apes, because you know, they
videotaped almost all of them starting starting in

640
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:52.719
the sixties. Most of them have
just hours and hours of tape, and

641
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:57.079
so people were breaking it down and
they were actually finding that in most of

642
00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:02.159
those, and in the Coco situation, uh, that that they could tell

643
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:07.639
that they were they could identify places
where they were being cued for their responses.

644
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:15.559
So those researchers came to the conclusion
that like in the case of Cocoa,

645
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:19.800
I think they also said so for
Washo, the female chimp that was

646
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:24.639
up at Central Washington for years,
that they weren't that that wasn't actual language,

647
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:30.079
It was just them parroting things back. Has there been a situation where

648
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:35.039
more than one ape, maybe have
the same species of different species have been

649
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:37.719
taught like say sign language or not
seeing I think I would have heard about

650
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:39.920
this by now. But if this
has happened, but maybe it hasn't.

651
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:45.719
Like maybe are there two gorillas that
have some sort of rudimentary understanding of sign

652
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:49.639
language and putting them together. What
do they talk about? Okay, So,

653
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:55.440
so Coco with was ASL, a
modified form of American sign language.

654
00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:00.880
Michael was a male that they had
gotten to try and get them to mate.

655
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:04.360
They wanted Coco to have a baby, see if she would teach her

656
00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:08.880
baby that. They really didn't communicate
a whole lot, but I'll tell three

657
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:14.920
quick little stories that I think kind
of illuminate this a little bit. So

658
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:19.519
while it seems that Coco was being
cured a lot by Penny Patterson, the

659
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:23.400
woman that worked with her, and
I don't think Penny was doing it consciously.

660
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:25.559
I don't think she was trying to
run a scam. I think that

661
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.199
she was doing things with her body
not even realizing it. Coco was responding.

662
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:35.039
However, Coco, like I said, they tried to get her to

663
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:39.039
breed with Michael. She had no
interest in Michael. But William Shatner was

664
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:45.639
a huge supporter of the Gorilla Foundation, and he went to visit and when

665
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.719
he walked in, Coco said she
wanted to mate with him. Well it's

666
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:54.880
William Shatner. Yeah. The Captain
Kirk effect is just you know, eternal.

667
00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:02.880
I guess, but that actually is
is a documented story. So whether

668
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:09.280
or not she fully understood the language, she knew the cues. Washow,

669
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:15.719
the female chimpanzee that was taught and
then was resided with the fouses up in

670
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:23.280
Central Washington University for decades, she
actually taught her offspring different hand signals,

671
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:29.719
so she was teaching something, but
again it's hard to tell what she really

672
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:34.480
understood. The third one that I'll
point out is Kanzi, and he's a

673
00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:43.880
bonobo. Konzie actually learned lexicons,
not asl He learned lexicons using lexicons,

674
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:51.519
and he learned it secondhand. He
was a youngster writing around on his mom's

675
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:53.760
back and they were trying to teach
his mom and his mom never picked it

676
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:59.880
up, and his sister, in
fact, had a limited ability with it,

677
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:01.960
and Kanzi had an amazing ability with
it. And so that's why I

678
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:07.519
say that individual behavior. Kanzi is
a bonobo that I would say if there

679
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:14.760
are geniuses among banobos, he's won. And I've watched video of Kanzie being

680
00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:21.199
told by someone who's behind a welder's
mask, so can't be giving any facial

681
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:27.679
cues to do things like, you
know, take the Coca cola which he

682
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:31.559
loves. No plug for coke,
but he loves it, and pour it

683
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:37.519
outside on the pine leaves, on
the pine nettles, which he of course

684
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:42.000
thinks, you know, is crazy
because it's coke, like why would you

685
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:46.480
waste it? And you watch him
just look at the person requesting this,

686
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:52.760
like he's trying to figure out if
he heard him right. He also does

687
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:57.480
things like slices up apples and puts
them in aluminum foil. He doesn't start

688
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.039
the fire, but he could cook
them over fire. He also was taught

689
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:05.559
to flint nap once upon a time. He didn't flint nap like a human

690
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:10.440
does. He simply used his incredible
strength and smashed two rocks together, got

691
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:16.199
a sharp point, and was able
to slice a cord. So that individual

692
00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:22.639
variation is something that's also really hard
to figure out when you when you talk

693
00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:27.000
about, you know, do apes
have the ability for language? That's like

694
00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:31.840
saying can humans do calculus? Some
of us? I can't. Yeah,

695
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:37.360
I mean listen, and I'm not
one of them. My best friend is,

696
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:43.480
but I'm not, and so you
know, so, so I think

697
00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:45.679
that's that's something that we always need
to keep in mind too. I think

698
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:52.199
absolutely though the U that the language
question is is a really interesting one because

699
00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:59.480
I personally think that most of the
apes have some sort of communication, they

700
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:04.199
may not be able to, you
know, make a call like Matt.

701
00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:08.000
You you reference to panthoot earlier,
which is my favorite of the chimpanzee calls.

702
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:13.079
And if you've ever been in a
room with Jane Goodall, she will

703
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:17.559
do it and you better answer to
her or her entourage of women in shawls

704
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:22.920
will give you the death stare.
But I'm not sure that they can do

705
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:28.960
that. And a chimp a half
a mile away can understand, Oh,

706
00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:34.440
there are red colabus monkeys here in
this tree, and there are youngsters that

707
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.599
we can that we can go after, you know, like we can do

708
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:40.920
that, but I'm not sure they
have that ability. You mentioned hand signals,

709
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:44.559
and I want to We're kind of
running out of time, but I

710
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:47.159
do want to touch on this before
we get going here. You mentioned hand

711
00:55:47.199 --> 00:55:52.280
signals, and and it seems like
a reasonable way to go because do apes

712
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:57.199
in general use hand signals. I
mean they do use hand signals to they

713
00:55:57.639 --> 00:56:00.599
I think they point sometimes, they
put their hands up various meanings and since

714
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:04.679
they I believe at least and correct
me if I'm wrong. Of course,

715
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:08.480
since they're using hand signals, I'm
curious if there are hand signals that might

716
00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:15.280
be universal amongst all the ape species, or perhaps that translate well between say

717
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:22.360
humans and chimps, or like some
sort of interspecies behavior like that, because

718
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:28.559
sasquatches have also been reported to display
some hand signals when confronted with humans,

719
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:32.559
whether that's raising their hands and like
jazz handing a people like well, running

720
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:37.159
at them to scare them. Probably
a size and you know, territorial thing.

721
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:42.239
Several people have reported a sasquatch just
raising one hand. They're not waving,

722
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.079
but they raise one hand almost like
as if they were to wave,

723
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:49.480
like acknowledging the person. Hey Bobo, Oh yeah, Bobo showed up.

724
00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:53.159
By the way, everybody, dude, that was the most frustrating last hour

725
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:59.920
of my life. That's saying something
I was gonna say. That's that's impressive.

726
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:06.239
This computer came so close to being
smashed smash hulk. You know,

727
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:12.360
I'm so checked. I want I
was just I'm so my credit card.

728
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:15.039
I declined, they're trying to charge
me to set up a new freaking account.

729
00:57:15.159 --> 00:57:17.880
And I tried another one and then
it was the same company, and

730
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:22.000
they said, you already started this, dude. It has just been a

731
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:25.880
nightmare, you know, because if
you said universal behaviors, I think I

732
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:32.599
think smashing things in frustration is the
universal behavior for all primates. I've watched

733
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:37.920
it. I've watched it dozens of
times in wild primates. Did you see

734
00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:42.159
the any of those interviews with the
chimp do you I don't know if you

735
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:45.760
guys went over there alorady, but
if do you know those chimp Chimp Empire

736
00:57:45.239 --> 00:57:50.039
scientists, and then also if you
saw the interviews afterwards where two of them

737
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:53.840
said they can't prove anything, but
they think they have some kind of base

738
00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:00.519
level telepathic ability the chimps. There's
some kind of communication going on. It

739
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:04.000
might be so subtle we don't see
it, but they got They said it.

740
00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:07.880
Two of the signs said, it
really seems like they have some kind

741
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.320
of non verbal non like they don't
have to be looking at each other to

742
00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:15.440
get the message. Yeah. I
think we we we talked a little bit

743
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:20.079
about that. But just so you
know, Bobo, the Chimp Empire chimps

744
00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:24.039
are actually the chimps I studied for
years in the field. Four of those

745
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:29.000
guys in the in the series.
Four of those chimps are chimps that I

746
00:58:29.199 --> 00:58:31.840
named, and so I was.
I was very happy when I got to

747
00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:37.519
see them as stars. Jackson was
one, uh, he was the alpha

748
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:43.480
male in the beginning, and then
there was I think Herbie might have been

749
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:49.239
in there, Herbie Hancock. Any
anyone who is a anyone who's a jazz

750
00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:52.440
fan, if they listened to enough
of the Gogo chimpanzee names, will very

751
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:59.119
quickly understand that one of my professors, one of the main directors of that

752
00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:05.840
site, is a gigantic jazz fan, and so has named has named the

753
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:12.280
chimps after after a lot of different
jazz musicians. But yeah, they I

754
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.920
didn't watch the interviews, so,
but I probably have been in the field

755
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:22.360
with most of those folks and we
did talk about that that, you know,

756
00:59:22.519 --> 00:59:28.199
chimps have. I'm not I don't
know necessarily if there's a telepathic component

757
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:35.159
as much as it is there's a
shared understanding of the situation, and so

758
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:40.840
they may be playing off of if
you're if you're an intelligent enough animal and

759
00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:45.920
you're living with another animal for twenty
five years, you get to the point

760
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:47.800
where you can kind of understand what
they're going to do before they do it,

761
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.639
and I and I think that's that's
probably what's going on there, Like

762
00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:57.079
how wolves courted a hot kind of
thing. Yeah, as as I said

763
00:59:57.119 --> 00:59:59.960
at the beginning of this cliff,
you know, in biology, I always

764
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:04.400
say never say never, because you're
going to get proven wrong at some point.

765
01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:08.320
If you're saying never, know,
the Sasquatches certainly are. Well.

766
01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:14.639
I'm still I'm still yet to be
convinced. But as I said at the

767
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:21.360
beginning, I'm I'm a very open
minded individual because again, I think that

768
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:24.599
there are lots of possibilities. But
clip as we talked about, you know,

769
01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:29.960
I've got my my reasons for my
skepticism. When we when we were

770
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:31.880
face to face there in the museum, do you have a do you have

771
01:00:31.960 --> 01:00:36.760
time to stick around for another thirty
forty minutes of conversation? Yeah? I

772
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:38.079
have time. Okay, why don't
we do this? Why don't we shut

773
01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:42.400
down the regular episode right now?
We'll record a little extra stuff for our

774
01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:46.079
members and we can talk about some
of because you know, primates are horrifyingly

775
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:51.800
dangerous animals and I'd like to talk
about some of the some of those sort

776
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:54.440
of items that you probably run across
in the in the woods out with chimpanzees,

777
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.679
because chimpanzees are just again, these
are the things of nightmares, you

778
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:00.760
know. Yeah, yeah, they're
smart and all that sort of stuff,

779
01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:05.039
but they can also rip your arm
off, literally rip your arm off.

780
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:07.280
So I'd like to talk about some
of the dangers perhaps you might have been

781
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:09.920
involved in in the woods. I
know you worked with elephants. I'm also

782
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:17.440
interested in perhaps comparing cognitive abilities between
elephants and primates. I've got questions about

783
01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:21.400
that. I've got a couple other
questions, And of course you deserve to

784
01:01:21.400 --> 01:01:22.360
get to know Bobo a little bit
better as well, So if you can

785
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:25.880
stick around, we'd really really appreciate
it. Yeah, I like steek around

786
01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:29.960
for a bit awesome, Bob.
But you just showed up, of course,

787
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.079
and I'm sorry that you missed a
lot of the conversation. It was

788
01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:34.159
a good one. But since you're
here, you know, why don't you

789
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.000
take us out of here and we
can continue the conversation over the member section.

790
01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:38.639
All right, folks, So you
guys heard this before I did.

791
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:44.480
So we want to thank doctor Hogan
Cheryl for coming on and giving us some

792
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:46.480
insight and if you want to hear
more of we're going to be on Patreon.

793
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:50.840
The Patreon support is only five bucks
a month, so check them out

794
01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:53.719
there. Check us out there every
week for extra episode and until then,

795
01:01:54.239 --> 01:02:04.320
you all keep it squatching. Thanks
for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot

796
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:07.840
and Beyond. If you liked what
you heard, please rate and review us

797
01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:12.400
on iTunes, Subscribe to Bigfoot and
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798
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:16.559
follow us on Facebook and Instagram at
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799
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:22.039
us on Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond
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800
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:25.960
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