From the pulpit of Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona, Pastor Mark Driscoll has
come up with a unique attention grabbing ploy, praying for Armagain. This latest
attempt to remain relevant shows his desperation and fear yes asking his God to end
the universe before election Day November twenty twenty four, even tweeting it out on
x Apparently he does not believe that his God can prevent electoral failure, ending
the last hope of Christian world domination a last act of desperation as he sees
the potential for his future may end much sooner than he would wish. If
he can't have the future he wants, might as well start armagain. God,
my imaginary boss and friend, please send the rapture now. I no
longer wish to play here. This story is from Patheos by Sean Paul Wood
on June fifth, twenty twenty four. Sidney, I have to ask you,
what does praying for the end of the world say about the message of
Christianity. Well, it's the least pro life thing I've ever heard. That
was the first thing that stuck out. I'm just saying, like I'm just
like I thought the whole point was. I don't know. But it also
is very like or as the young kids would say, it's giving like your
high school relationship where you break up and the other person's like, I'm gonna
kill myself, right, and then you're like, Okay, we can go
to prom It's fine. Like that's what I'm getting from this guy, where
he's like, instead of having a communicative conversation like an adult about how like
elections work and how votes work, he's one essentially guaranteeing that he eliminates everyone
who would have voted the way he wanted them to vote, So he's guaranteeing
the loss as opposed to like assuming the loss. But then also, how
like where are all the pro life people? Like where are they? They
won't shut up, and now when he's like calling for all of them to
die, they just stay silent, And I want to know what's up with
that? Yeah, I mean, if you can't turn to the Bible and
see that God is not pro life, whether it's by wiping out everybody with
a flood or by killing all the firstborn children of Egypt, you should certainly
be able to look to your own church in Scottsdale, Arizona, and see
that at least your leader knows that God's not pro life and is trying to
invoke that power. Right. I mean, to be fair, if I
lived in Scottsdale, Arizona, I'd probably also want to Maybe it's already happening.
I've seen the weather reports lately, and my goodness, I am glad
I'm not living down there. But Eli, you know, what does this
say? You know, we have the kind of pro life stance and the
irony there, but you know, is is Christianity a death cult? I
mean, let me just come out and say it. What what are your
thoughts on that death cult? I think? I mean there's a lot of
different cults you can describe Christianity as, right, like I think, yeah,
I think there's definitely tons of that. The rapture yourself. Now,
they're going to argue, like, well, you don't die during the rapture.
You just said, like okay, cool, But like I mean,
the only way to get it as a diet, it's whatever. But I
is it? I mean, is it a deathicult? It's hard to answer.
I thought it, Like, I thought you made a really interesting point
that like, instead of just like praying for favorable election results. Like I
didn't even think about that until you said it to them. I'm like,
why is this the only way? Like there's a lot of steps in between
rapture like that man, Like so uh, yeah it was. And I
went actually to the comments. I was reading some of the comments on there,
and like even other Christians are like you should be ashamed, like you
think that God like the what's important to God is us politics? And like
there was one particular comment the article reference that I wanted to find and reply
to because I thought it was funny, but I couldn't find it. But
it was just full of people like nobody really agrees with them honestly, and
even Christians, which I thought was surprising. Oh but okay, I this
that's bullshit, Like not you, You're not bullshit like that. You can't.
You can't one day make me look at memes of Trump like touching the
hand of Jesus and like talk about how you know Jesus was persecuted too,
that's okay, And then also be like God doesn't care about American elections when
you're losing, Like that's not like you didn't break up with me. I
broke up with you actually, like, no, that's not so. There's
so much like cognitive dissonance going You pick one. Either God cares about the
election so much that he appointed Donald Trump to be the President of the United
States, sent by God. Or as another guy told me, like on
Thursday that I ran into he said that apparently George Washington was also appointed by
God. Yeah. Yeah, apparently I was not there, so I would
not know. But then also, when you're losing and when you when you
think that someone is actually summoning the rapture, they're probably really scared. They
probably think it's actually gonna work. If this guy keeps asking for the rapture,
They're like, no, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up,
stop, stop, stop, let me do it. Wicked hasn't even
come out yet. I want to see it. It's a November the fuck
up? Do you see it? Like pick a side. Be consistent,
is my argument. At least you know we're heathens, but we're pretty consistent.
Yeah, well, I am really inclined to ask does this guy even
really believe in his God? I mean, of course it's probably pretty obvious,
Like, sure he does. He's a clergy member, right, but
like we've talked about before, you know, these people get something out of
this. This guy has experienced some semi fame, if you will. Right,
he's popular. We are only bringing up Trump, by the way,
just because this guy has been such an avid supporter of him and an outspoken
Trump supporter. Right, And so with an election coming up, does he
actually feel that maybe his views, maybe his position is not going to work
out on behalf? And then what does that say about his confidence in his
own God? Does he even really believe that this is all true? Or
is this a facade? Right? Is this just an attention grabber? Like
I mentioned in the opening, is this more of his own stroking his own
ego? And Eli, I wanted to kind of get your take on,
you know, how authentic is this guy? You know it's just just theatrics?
Is this political theater? I think it's definitely an attention grab for sure.
How genuine is he as far as his beliefs, Like, I mean,
that's I mean, if he's saying that's what he believes, I'm inclined
to believe him, but I do. I mean, there's definitely people like
I think that there there are other other politicians that I think have definitely pretended
to be Christian or played that role or like for some reason, like I
think Donald Trump, I don't think Donald Trump is a Christian, and I
think everybody believes it. So Like the comment I talked about earlier, one
guy said on the three that, like, Donald Trump is quoted numerous times
as saying, I'm not to save your Jesus Is, And I googled it
in like a bunch of different like formats, and there's no record of him
ever saying that, but people believe that he's saying that that, Like he's
he's doing all these like Christian things, and and I think Todd Driscoll could
be could be the same way, Like is he like I have no idea.
I haven't paid a whole lot of it into Jim. I really don't
even know like what his stance is, like was he's saying like he like,
I don't know if he's like he wants Trump to be, you know,
the president and he's he doesn't think that will happen, or I don't
even know what his dance is, but I just it. I think it's
definitely an attention grab and whether or not he actually believes that, you know,
it believes what he's preaching. I mean, I think he's gonna he's
going to get the same effect that he wants no matter what. Well,
I think it's important that we recognize first of all, that we are not
endorsing any political candidate nor disparaging them. But what we are doing is kind
of just laying out all right, here's where Driscoll's coming from, and here's
why he might be saying the things that he's saying. And so I think
that when it comes to far right Christian nationalism, uh, you know,
Driscoll has a dog in that fight right to support political candidates, and not
just people running for president, but all levels. It benefits him in some
way because his values, his community's value user uphilld But in what ways is
he wrong? I mean, let me rephrase that, is he wrong?
Is he is he wrong for doing that? So Drisco said, I know,
asking you in what ways is he wrong is like saying we're going to
need a lot more than twenty minutes, right, But you know, this
is a guy who came out and said, well, this is supposed to
be one nation under God, and of course he's going to fight for the
people that support that. But I mean, are we really supposed to be
one nation under God? And I wanted to kind of get your take on
that, Sydney. I want to start with you, you know, how
does that reflect Christian ideals versus American political ideals. So to answer kind of
the first thing that you mentioned, I think he's wrong, but not for
the reasons I think people are going to think. I think he's wrong.
I think he's wrong for doing that because one, the people who follow him
genuinely believe that the rapture is real. And so when you start calling for
the rapture, and when you start praying to God for the rapture after telling
your into higher congregation that prayer works, that prayer is real, that the
rapture will happen, that's to me, that's like psychological torture, Like why
would you do that. That's like the equivalent of somebody praying for a school
shooter to come, like to my school. You know what I'm saying,
Like, I think him doing that in front of people who genuinely believe the
rapture is going to happen, and we're told by him that it can happen,
I think it's really messed up, and I think it's very irresponsible if
you're going to be leadership in something like a church, especially in Western Christian
religions. That's just awful and it's evil, and I think it's just terrible.
And I don't even know if he's thought that far into it. Maybe
he has. Maybe he the fear monger tactic gets him a lot of attention,
Maybe the fear monger tactic gets more butts and seats at the church.
Maybe he literally just wants to go viral. But I don't think there's a
good enough reason for him to be doing this in front of a congregation who
genuinely is in fear of the fact that he might actually pray it into existence.
But as somebody who doesn't believe the rapture is real, I also just
think he's wrong because I don't believe it, you know, like just like
a genuine it's like okay, like keep raying that it's gonna happen. I
guess this would be like, man, this would be the perfect moment for
me to just get sucked right out of this chair, just like raptured.
Oh but I wouldn't make it though. I guess I would go, I'd
be stuck. So maybe that's why we're all still here. Actually yeah,
so yeah, Eli, I think it's always kind of confusing to me when
we have religious leaders and elected officials do this as well. They stand up
and they say, this is supposed to be one nation under God. But
under God was put in the Pledge of Allegiance in I think nineteen fifty four
by Dwight Eisenhower, right, he signed it into law to add that in.
You know, so this nation wasn't founded on this principle that were under
God. In fact, it was separate, you know, taking that into
consideration, how consistent are his views and how he's aligning himself politically. So,
and I was going to bring up exactly what you did. It was
added to the pledge in four and then it wasn't added onto money until the
next year in fifty five. And I've heard you say a number of times
on ACA shows that the founding fathers were deistic believers, if anything, not
not theistic. So and because of you know, that First Amendment intentionally separating
the church from the state, because of the history that those the early settler
or early colonists came from and the persecution they came from. They wanted to
prevent this. So with with as you mentioned, Todd, Jiskeoll has a
dog in the Christian nationalist fight. So if if this becomes a Christian nationalist
nation, now he's got more people in his seats like mandatorily like and that's
more money for him. That's how like Joel Osti is worth like thirty five
million dollars or something like that just by being a pastor. And the I
mean him being a Christian nationalist. What he's saying is, I guess consistent
with his views if he feels like the Christian nationalist state is going to fail,
and that's why he'd rather just go to you know, the Kingdom of
heaven. And that's what he's thinking. But actually, Sidney, I think
you made it a fantastic point that it's for people who really believe this is
real and are terrified of it. That is yeah, it's absolutely psychological torture,
and he's he's responsible for that, and that is probably gonna lose him
a lot of people. And that's like specifically the reason, well not the
only reason, but like my son's mom is religious and when he goes when
he's with her, he goes to church, and I am waiting for the
day that he comes back talking about Hell. And that's the only thing I
want to be like that is not real. Hell does not exist, because
I know adults that are still afraid to like they're not afraid to be gay,
but like they have these hang ups as anxiety about the fact that they're
gay because they're afraid of going to Hell. And I'm like, you,
just I wish you could just be comfortable live in your life. And I
think that's sort of imagery and that's sort of those threats. Yeah, And
that's a good transition point because I do want to pivot back to something I
feel deeply about, and that is the abuse that comes from a life,
lifetime of being told not only that you are naturally bad, but that you
deserve punishment and that you will die, and that we have to champion death
in some way. I mean the central focus of Christianity, and what Driscoll
is doing to his community, to his congregation is essentially the worship of death.
Right. We worship a man who or we I shouldn't say we,
although it was true about me at one time right, No, No,
you know, worship a guy who was murdered two thousand years ago, and
then you pretend to drink his blood and eat his flesh week after week,
and then you get in front of people and you pray for the end of
the world because you're not getting your way. Oh and by the way,
the people that don't think like you, they should be tortured and all that
forever. You know, So cidny, I know you and I have talked
in depth about this, but how does this play out over the lad long
term? And you know, what might his congregation be experiencing. I think
for someone who has a response like that, for someone who has reaction to
pray for the rapture to happen, I have to imagine that's not the first
extreme thing he's ever done. I bet if you look into his sermons,
you'll find a lot of bombastic, extreme, borderline scary or very scary,
depending on who you are, all sorts of tag me in the clips of
it, make it go viral on TikTok, that sort of stuff. So
I would also imagine that the kind of people who attend churches like his regularly
often have extreme views as well, or they're accepting of extreme views. Even
if they're not one hundred percent sure what they believe, they're willing to sit
and go to church at least once a week, if not multiple times a
week to hear this kind of sermon. So while I don't think that the
average Christian church is the South is like that, I've been to those kinds
of churches before, and I've seen the kind of people who support those churches,
and oftentimes it's very chicken in the egg. It's like who started it.
Did the extreme people bring in a pastor who's going to support their extreme
beliefs, or did the pastor come in with extreme beliefs and convert everyone to
these extreme beliefs. But I think it won't play out well in the long
term. I think that kind of cult like behavior, as we've seen historically,
eventually burns everybody out. Whether it's because the younger generations just stop coming
back that all those people and they just truly trickle out and die out,
or because the pastor gets caught doing something illegal and goes to jail and the
church disbands. Right, there's so many different ways that I think things like
that can lose their power and dissipate. But in the long term, people
can't live in constant terror and fear and stress and anger like that without feeling
some kind of emotional or physical side effects. I guess even if that side
effect is just never going back, I think you hit. I think you
hit a really important point about never going back, about the young people not
going back. We have seen this throughout history, especially in the United States,
especially earlier in the colonies, where church participation continuously dissipated and churches rethought
their rules. Right, you could be you could be a half member.
Now will allow women to be in the clergy like they did, They changed,
and they did all this stuff. But Eli, you know, when
we talk about religious movements political religious movements in this country, we are often
talking about the conservative Christian nationalists as they're they're so often referred to. But
you know, there's often a tendency for these people to leave churches and go
over to the left. And the left is also religious itself in their own
ways. But this article, getting back to it, talked about how people
are so dissatisfied with the political division in this country. What is America doing?
What are we doing about our political dissatisfaction regardless of our religious stans.
What are we doing about it? I don't think anything. I don't It's
it's hard to see. I mean, we really just still have this two
party system. So, like you mentioned, the article had some data about
there was a survey regarding like people's opinions about the two parties system as well
as each party. Twenty eight percent of adults have an unfavorable view of both
parties. Only sixteen percent of the public trust the government most of the time.
Two thirds of the respondents said they feel exhausted when they think about American
politics, and the top two words used to describe us politics are diverse and
corrupt. Do you mean divisive and corrupt? Yes? Thank you device,
Wow, not to write it. Thank you so much for correcting me on
that device. I've in corrupt yees. So sixty eight percent of Americans think
that or wish that there were more than two parties, but don't even really
feel that having two parties would make it any easier to solve the nation's problems.
People like Todd Driscoll or other Christian nationalists think that putting religion into government,
putting specifically Christianity into government is what's going to fix our problems, and
I kind of think it quite the opposite. I think most of the problems
we're having now come from too much religious influence in government. They're going to
fix his problems. To care about everybody's problems. They're going to fix his
problems, and that's what matters. Cindy, did you want to expand on
the relationship between religion and politics while we're on it? Sure? I think
that there are I'm trying to be careful with my words here. I think
there are types of people that are vulnerable to control and that also need to
be told what to do, and those types of people fall into multi level
marketing schemes. They fall into specific lifestyles, and I think two of the
main things they fall into are extremist religions and extremist political ideology. Because they
don't have to defend that stuff themselves. They've now joined a big club that
will tell them how they feel about that, how to act about that.
There's channels they can watch where the people they are supposed to look up to
are doing all the talking for them. They never have to worry about being
a talking head for their own church or for their own political ideology because somebody
else will do it for them. And so to me, in my biased
opinion, there are particular political beliefs that I think are just as much cults
as religions, just as much cults as MLMs. Several types of cults exist,
and the same type of behavior that gets people involved in the religious ones
gets them involved in many of them. Sure, And I think my final
thought on that is that it is so dangerous, as Eli said, to
try and put religion into politics and solve your problems, because religion, especially
I think this case makes a good example. I think desensitizes people to death,
and I would equate Christianity, at least some Christian sex and people talking
like this with a death cult, somebody who chooses death over an election loss.
Right, instead of trying to confront where you could do better or working
with another political party, you instead invoke the end of the world. And
that just shows that you are more comfortable with chaos and destruction, which is
why so often in politics we have seen civilians turn on each other, people
resort to mob rule and use of force instead of trying to work through this,
and so I think it just gets very ugly, very dangerous. This
kind of talk is not good either for the congregation or for the political party
and society at large. And we at the nonprofits are going to hold people
to talk like this accountable