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From the pulpit of Trinity Church in
Scottsdale, Arizona, Pastor Mark Driscoll has

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come up with a unique attention grabbing
ploy, praying for Armagain. This latest

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attempt to remain relevant shows his desperation
and fear yes asking his God to end

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the universe before election Day November twenty
twenty four, even tweeting it out on

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x Apparently he does not believe that
his God can prevent electoral failure, ending

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the last hope of Christian world domination
a last act of desperation as he sees

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the potential for his future may end
much sooner than he would wish. If

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he can't have the future he wants, might as well start armagain. God,

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my imaginary boss and friend, please
send the rapture now. I no

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longer wish to play here. This
story is from Patheos by Sean Paul Wood

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on June fifth, twenty twenty four. Sidney, I have to ask you,

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what does praying for the end of
the world say about the message of

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Christianity. Well, it's the least
pro life thing I've ever heard. That

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was the first thing that stuck out. I'm just saying, like I'm just

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like I thought the whole point was. I don't know. But it also

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is very like or as the young
kids would say, it's giving like your

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high school relationship where you break up
and the other person's like, I'm gonna

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kill myself, right, and then
you're like, Okay, we can go

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to prom It's fine. Like that's
what I'm getting from this guy, where

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he's like, instead of having a
communicative conversation like an adult about how like

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elections work and how votes work,
he's one essentially guaranteeing that he eliminates everyone

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who would have voted the way he
wanted them to vote, So he's guaranteeing

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the loss as opposed to like assuming
the loss. But then also, how

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like where are all the pro life
people? Like where are they? They

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won't shut up, and now when
he's like calling for all of them to

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die, they just stay silent,
And I want to know what's up with

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that? Yeah, I mean,
if you can't turn to the Bible and

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see that God is not pro life, whether it's by wiping out everybody with

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a flood or by killing all the
firstborn children of Egypt, you should certainly

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be able to look to your own
church in Scottsdale, Arizona, and see

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that at least your leader knows that
God's not pro life and is trying to

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invoke that power. Right. I
mean, to be fair, if I

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lived in Scottsdale, Arizona, I'd
probably also want to Maybe it's already happening.

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I've seen the weather reports lately,
and my goodness, I am glad

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I'm not living down there. But
Eli, you know, what does this

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say? You know, we have
the kind of pro life stance and the

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irony there, but you know,
is is Christianity a death cult? I

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mean, let me just come out
and say it. What what are your

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thoughts on that death cult? I
think? I mean there's a lot of

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different cults you can describe Christianity as, right, like I think, yeah,

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I think there's definitely tons of that. The rapture yourself. Now,

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they're going to argue, like,
well, you don't die during the rapture.

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You just said, like okay,
cool, But like I mean,

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the only way to get it as
a diet, it's whatever. But I

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is it? I mean, is
it a deathicult? It's hard to answer.

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I thought it, Like, I
thought you made a really interesting point

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that like, instead of just like
praying for favorable election results. Like I

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didn't even think about that until you
said it to them. I'm like,

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why is this the only way?
Like there's a lot of steps in between

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rapture like that man, Like so
uh, yeah it was. And I

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went actually to the comments. I
was reading some of the comments on there,

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and like even other Christians are like
you should be ashamed, like you

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think that God like the what's important
to God is us politics? And like

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there was one particular comment the article
reference that I wanted to find and reply

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to because I thought it was funny, but I couldn't find it. But

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it was just full of people like
nobody really agrees with them honestly, and

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even Christians, which I thought was
surprising. Oh but okay, I this

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that's bullshit, Like not you,
You're not bullshit like that. You can't.

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You can't one day make me look
at memes of Trump like touching the

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hand of Jesus and like talk about
how you know Jesus was persecuted too,

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that's okay, And then also be
like God doesn't care about American elections when

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you're losing, Like that's not like
you didn't break up with me. I

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broke up with you actually, like, no, that's not so. There's

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so much like cognitive dissonance going You
pick one. Either God cares about the

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election so much that he appointed Donald
Trump to be the President of the United

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States, sent by God. Or
as another guy told me, like on

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Thursday that I ran into he said
that apparently George Washington was also appointed by

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God. Yeah. Yeah, apparently
I was not there, so I would

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not know. But then also,
when you're losing and when you when you

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think that someone is actually summoning the
rapture, they're probably really scared. They

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probably think it's actually gonna work.
If this guy keeps asking for the rapture,

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They're like, no, shut the
fuck up, shut the fuck up,

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stop, stop, stop, let
me do it. Wicked hasn't even

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come out yet. I want to
see it. It's a November the fuck

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up? Do you see it?
Like pick a side. Be consistent,

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is my argument. At least you
know we're heathens, but we're pretty consistent.

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Yeah, well, I am really
inclined to ask does this guy even

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really believe in his God? I
mean, of course it's probably pretty obvious,

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Like, sure he does. He's
a clergy member, right, but

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like we've talked about before, you
know, these people get something out of

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this. This guy has experienced some
semi fame, if you will. Right,

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he's popular. We are only bringing
up Trump, by the way,

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just because this guy has been such
an avid supporter of him and an outspoken

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Trump supporter. Right, And so
with an election coming up, does he

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actually feel that maybe his views,
maybe his position is not going to work

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out on behalf? And then what
does that say about his confidence in his

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own God? Does he even really
believe that this is all true? Or

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is this a facade? Right?
Is this just an attention grabber? Like

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I mentioned in the opening, is
this more of his own stroking his own

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ego? And Eli, I wanted
to kind of get your take on,

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you know, how authentic is this
guy? You know it's just just theatrics?

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Is this political theater? I think
it's definitely an attention grab for sure.

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How genuine is he as far as
his beliefs, Like, I mean,

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that's I mean, if he's saying
that's what he believes, I'm inclined

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to believe him, but I do. I mean, there's definitely people like

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I think that there there are other
other politicians that I think have definitely pretended

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to be Christian or played that role
or like for some reason, like I

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think Donald Trump, I don't think
Donald Trump is a Christian, and I

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think everybody believes it. So Like
the comment I talked about earlier, one

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guy said on the three that,
like, Donald Trump is quoted numerous times

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as saying, I'm not to save
your Jesus Is, And I googled it

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in like a bunch of different like
formats, and there's no record of him

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ever saying that, but people believe
that he's saying that that, Like he's

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he's doing all these like Christian things, and and I think Todd Driscoll could

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be could be the same way,
Like is he like I have no idea.

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I haven't paid a whole lot of
it into Jim. I really don't

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even know like what his stance is, like was he's saying like he like,

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I don't know if he's like he
wants Trump to be, you know,

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the president and he's he doesn't think
that will happen, or I don't

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even know what his dance is,
but I just it. I think it's

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definitely an attention grab and whether or
not he actually believes that, you know,

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it believes what he's preaching. I
mean, I think he's gonna he's

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going to get the same effect that
he wants no matter what. Well,

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I think it's important that we recognize
first of all, that we are not

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endorsing any political candidate nor disparaging them. But what we are doing is kind

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of just laying out all right,
here's where Driscoll's coming from, and here's

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why he might be saying the things
that he's saying. And so I think

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that when it comes to far right
Christian nationalism, uh, you know,

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Driscoll has a dog in that fight
right to support political candidates, and not

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just people running for president, but
all levels. It benefits him in some

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way because his values, his community's
value user uphilld But in what ways is

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he wrong? I mean, let
me rephrase that, is he wrong?

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Is he is he wrong for doing
that? So Drisco said, I know,

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asking you in what ways is he
wrong is like saying we're going to

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need a lot more than twenty minutes, right, But you know, this

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is a guy who came out and
said, well, this is supposed to

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be one nation under God, and
of course he's going to fight for the

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people that support that. But I
mean, are we really supposed to be

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one nation under God? And I
wanted to kind of get your take on

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that, Sydney. I want to
start with you, you know, how

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does that reflect Christian ideals versus American
political ideals. So to answer kind of

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the first thing that you mentioned,
I think he's wrong, but not for

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the reasons I think people are going
to think. I think he's wrong.

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I think he's wrong for doing that
because one, the people who follow him

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genuinely believe that the rapture is real. And so when you start calling for

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the rapture, and when you start
praying to God for the rapture after telling

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your into higher congregation that prayer works, that prayer is real, that the

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rapture will happen, that's to me, that's like psychological torture, Like why

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would you do that. That's like
the equivalent of somebody praying for a school

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shooter to come, like to my
school. You know what I'm saying,

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Like, I think him doing that
in front of people who genuinely believe the

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rapture is going to happen, and
we're told by him that it can happen,

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I think it's really messed up,
and I think it's very irresponsible if

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you're going to be leadership in something
like a church, especially in Western Christian

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religions. That's just awful and it's
evil, and I think it's just terrible.

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And I don't even know if he's
thought that far into it. Maybe

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he has. Maybe he the fear
monger tactic gets him a lot of attention,

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Maybe the fear monger tactic gets more
butts and seats at the church.

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Maybe he literally just wants to go
viral. But I don't think there's a

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good enough reason for him to be
doing this in front of a congregation who

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genuinely is in fear of the fact
that he might actually pray it into existence.

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But as somebody who doesn't believe the
rapture is real, I also just

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think he's wrong because I don't believe
it, you know, like just like

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a genuine it's like okay, like
keep raying that it's gonna happen. I

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guess this would be like, man, this would be the perfect moment for

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me to just get sucked right out
of this chair, just like raptured.

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Oh but I wouldn't make it though. I guess I would go, I'd

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be stuck. So maybe that's why
we're all still here. Actually yeah,

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so yeah, Eli, I think
it's always kind of confusing to me when

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we have religious leaders and elected officials
do this as well. They stand up

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and they say, this is supposed
to be one nation under God. But

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under God was put in the Pledge
of Allegiance in I think nineteen fifty four

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by Dwight Eisenhower, right, he
signed it into law to add that in.

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You know, so this nation wasn't
founded on this principle that were under

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God. In fact, it was
separate, you know, taking that into

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consideration, how consistent are his views
and how he's aligning himself politically. So,

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and I was going to bring up
exactly what you did. It was

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added to the pledge in four and
then it wasn't added onto money until the

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next year in fifty five. And
I've heard you say a number of times

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on ACA shows that the founding fathers
were deistic believers, if anything, not

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not theistic. So and because of
you know, that First Amendment intentionally separating

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the church from the state, because
of the history that those the early settler

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or early colonists came from and the
persecution they came from. They wanted to

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prevent this. So with with as
you mentioned, Todd, Jiskeoll has a

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dog in the Christian nationalist fight.
So if if this becomes a Christian nationalist

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nation, now he's got more people
in his seats like mandatorily like and that's

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more money for him. That's how
like Joel Osti is worth like thirty five

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million dollars or something like that just
by being a pastor. And the I

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mean him being a Christian nationalist.
What he's saying is, I guess consistent

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with his views if he feels like
the Christian nationalist state is going to fail,

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and that's why he'd rather just go
to you know, the Kingdom of

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heaven. And that's what he's thinking. But actually, Sidney, I think

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you made it a fantastic point that
it's for people who really believe this is

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real and are terrified of it.
That is yeah, it's absolutely psychological torture,

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and he's he's responsible for that,
and that is probably gonna lose him

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a lot of people. And that's
like specifically the reason, well not the

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only reason, but like my son's
mom is religious and when he goes when

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he's with her, he goes to
church, and I am waiting for the

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day that he comes back talking about
Hell. And that's the only thing I

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want to be like that is not
real. Hell does not exist, because

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I know adults that are still afraid
to like they're not afraid to be gay,

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but like they have these hang ups
as anxiety about the fact that they're

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gay because they're afraid of going to
Hell. And I'm like, you,

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just I wish you could just be
comfortable live in your life. And I

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think that's sort of imagery and that's
sort of those threats. Yeah, And

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that's a good transition point because I
do want to pivot back to something I

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feel deeply about, and that is
the abuse that comes from a life,

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lifetime of being told not only that
you are naturally bad, but that you

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deserve punishment and that you will die, and that we have to champion death

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in some way. I mean the
central focus of Christianity, and what Driscoll

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is doing to his community, to
his congregation is essentially the worship of death.

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Right. We worship a man who
or we I shouldn't say we,

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although it was true about me at
one time right, No, No,

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you know, worship a guy who
was murdered two thousand years ago, and

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then you pretend to drink his blood
and eat his flesh week after week,

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and then you get in front of
people and you pray for the end of

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the world because you're not getting your
way. Oh and by the way,

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the people that don't think like you, they should be tortured and all that

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forever. You know, So cidny, I know you and I have talked

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in depth about this, but how
does this play out over the lad long

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term? And you know, what
might his congregation be experiencing. I think

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for someone who has a response like
that, for someone who has reaction to

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pray for the rapture to happen,
I have to imagine that's not the first

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extreme thing he's ever done. I
bet if you look into his sermons,

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you'll find a lot of bombastic,
extreme, borderline scary or very scary,

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depending on who you are, all
sorts of tag me in the clips of

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it, make it go viral on
TikTok, that sort of stuff. So

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I would also imagine that the kind
of people who attend churches like his regularly

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often have extreme views as well,
or they're accepting of extreme views. Even

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if they're not one hundred percent sure
what they believe, they're willing to sit

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and go to church at least once
a week, if not multiple times a

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week to hear this kind of sermon. So while I don't think that the

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average Christian church is the South is
like that, I've been to those kinds

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of churches before, and I've seen
the kind of people who support those churches,

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and oftentimes it's very chicken in the
egg. It's like who started it.

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Did the extreme people bring in a
pastor who's going to support their extreme

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beliefs, or did the pastor come
in with extreme beliefs and convert everyone to

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these extreme beliefs. But I think
it won't play out well in the long

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term. I think that kind of
cult like behavior, as we've seen historically,

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eventually burns everybody out. Whether it's
because the younger generations just stop coming

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back that all those people and they
just truly trickle out and die out,

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or because the pastor gets caught doing
something illegal and goes to jail and the

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church disbands. Right, there's so
many different ways that I think things like

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that can lose their power and dissipate. But in the long term, people

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can't live in constant terror and fear
and stress and anger like that without feeling

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some kind of emotional or physical side
effects. I guess even if that side

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effect is just never going back,
I think you hit. I think you

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hit a really important point about never
going back, about the young people not

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going back. We have seen this
throughout history, especially in the United States,

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especially earlier in the colonies, where
church participation continuously dissipated and churches rethought

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their rules. Right, you could
be you could be a half member.

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Now will allow women to be in
the clergy like they did, They changed,

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and they did all this stuff.
But Eli, you know, when

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we talk about religious movements political religious
movements in this country, we are often

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talking about the conservative Christian nationalists as
they're they're so often referred to. But

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you know, there's often a tendency
for these people to leave churches and go

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over to the left. And the
left is also religious itself in their own

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ways. But this article, getting
back to it, talked about how people

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are so dissatisfied with the political division
in this country. What is America doing?

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What are we doing about our political
dissatisfaction regardless of our religious stans.

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What are we doing about it?
I don't think anything. I don't It's

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it's hard to see. I mean, we really just still have this two

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party system. So, like you
mentioned, the article had some data about

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there was a survey regarding like people's
opinions about the two parties system as well

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as each party. Twenty eight percent
of adults have an unfavorable view of both

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parties. Only sixteen percent of the
public trust the government most of the time.

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Two thirds of the respondents said they
feel exhausted when they think about American

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politics, and the top two words
used to describe us politics are diverse and

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corrupt. Do you mean divisive and
corrupt? Yes? Thank you device,

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Wow, not to write it.
Thank you so much for correcting me on

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that device. I've in corrupt yees. So sixty eight percent of Americans think

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that or wish that there were more
than two parties, but don't even really

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feel that having two parties would make
it any easier to solve the nation's problems.

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People like Todd Driscoll or other Christian
nationalists think that putting religion into government,

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putting specifically Christianity into government is what's
going to fix our problems, and

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I kind of think it quite the
opposite. I think most of the problems

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we're having now come from too much
religious influence in government. They're going to

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fix his problems. To care about
everybody's problems. They're going to fix his

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problems, and that's what matters.
Cindy, did you want to expand on

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the relationship between religion and politics while
we're on it? Sure? I think

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that there are I'm trying to be
careful with my words here. I think

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there are types of people that are
vulnerable to control and that also need to

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be told what to do, and
those types of people fall into multi level

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marketing schemes. They fall into specific
lifestyles, and I think two of the

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main things they fall into are extremist
religions and extremist political ideology. Because they

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don't have to defend that stuff themselves. They've now joined a big club that

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will tell them how they feel about
that, how to act about that.

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There's channels they can watch where the
people they are supposed to look up to

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are doing all the talking for them. They never have to worry about being

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a talking head for their own church
or for their own political ideology because somebody

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else will do it for them.
And so to me, in my biased

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opinion, there are particular political beliefs
that I think are just as much cults

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as religions, just as much cults
as MLMs. Several types of cults exist,

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and the same type of behavior that
gets people involved in the religious ones

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gets them involved in many of them. Sure, And I think my final

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thought on that is that it is
so dangerous, as Eli said, to

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try and put religion into politics and
solve your problems, because religion, especially

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I think this case makes a good
example. I think desensitizes people to death,

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and I would equate Christianity, at
least some Christian sex and people talking

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like this with a death cult,
somebody who chooses death over an election loss.

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Right, instead of trying to confront
where you could do better or working

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with another political party, you instead
invoke the end of the world. And

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that just shows that you are more
comfortable with chaos and destruction, which is

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why so often in politics we have
seen civilians turn on each other, people

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resort to mob rule and use of
force instead of trying to work through this,

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and so I think it just gets
very ugly, very dangerous. This

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kind of talk is not good either
for the congregation or for the political party

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and society at large. And we
at the nonprofits are going to hold people

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to talk like this accountable