1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:51,840 crime, Bill Thomas. Please welcome to the stage. Bill Thomas and Kristin 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,640 Dilly victims advocates, writers, and the co host of the Mind over Murder 11 00:00:56,679 --> 00:01:02,799 podcast. They are joined by their moderator and crime con favorite Cheryl McCollum and 12 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:08,120 Atlanta based CSI and host of this own seven podcast, Let's Do This, 13 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:15,799 Baby. Yeah, I'll be keeping this. Thank you. Oh are these 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,959 souvenir pillows? Yes, I've never seen them. Hey, let's get something 15 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:27,280 out of the way. Real quick. For thirty seven years, Bill Thomas 16 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:37,239 has fault for his sister yep, which makes me old. Seriously, thirty 17 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,120 seven years. I just find that not only heartwarming but just so impressive. 18 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:46,680 And I'm going to tell you something else. When it's your family and you're 19 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:51,400 fighting for justice and you're hitting the streets every day, that is amazing. 20 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:57,000 But when you can find a sidekick that is just as devoted and works just 21 00:01:57,079 --> 00:02:04,040 as hard like Kristen, I don't know what to say about her except just 22 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:07,640 extraordinary human being. So I just wanted to get that out of the way 23 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:14,360 because we were here at crime Con last year and somebody was like, oh, 24 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,960 I know who that is. That's I don't want to say what they 25 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,360 said. I'm not going to repeat it, but they lessened what she does 26 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,159 and what she and Bill do together. So I just wanted to say out 27 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:29,120 loud, this is a partnership. They are both investigators, they are both 28 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:34,400 podcasters, they both have such a hand and why we are here today, 29 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,680 So let's talk about while we're here today, let's talk about and we don't 30 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,719 always get to say this from this stage, so I'm will stand up and 31 00:02:40,719 --> 00:02:50,080 say it. We got a break in the case, and it's in large 32 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:53,280 part because of what these two were doing. I'm not gonna take up any 33 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,759 more time because just let you know, I could. I could talk about 34 00:02:57,039 --> 00:03:00,879 Bill and Christen in a long time. But I even have notes because I 35 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:07,719 don't know if y'all know this, but Krista Dilley is a professional educatory and 36 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,560 she has sent me a few notes. Had a flashback from high school, 37 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,800 I would get one email. Here's the PowerPoint review it. Please, here 38 00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:21,639 are some side notes. Please review and get back to me. Here are 39 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:27,439 the questions that I would like for you to ask. I'm so BOSSI not 40 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:30,800 bossy, but honey, we're gonna stay on track and we're gonna stay on 41 00:03:30,879 --> 00:03:34,759 point. Is that fine? And I love her for it. So if 42 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,879 it's all right with y'all, I'm just gonna kick this off. You go 43 00:03:36,919 --> 00:03:40,639 ahead. That gravy, all right right ahead. On January eighth, twenty 44 00:03:40,719 --> 00:03:46,360 twenty four, the FBI in the Virginia State Police held a joint press conference 45 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:53,560 in Norfolk, Virginia, announcing the identity of the perpetrator of the nineteen eighty 46 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:59,919 seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Noban, one of the four double homicides 47 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:05,680 in the group collectively known as the Colonial Parkway Murders. The perpetrator, Alan 48 00:04:05,879 --> 00:04:14,400 Wade Wilmer, Senior, was a commercial waterman deceased since twenty seventeen, and 49 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,480 had been linked to three of the victims via DNA. Today, we're going 50 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:25,879 to take you all inside the explosive and dramatic developments in the Colonial Parkway murders 51 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,920 and this discovery of a new serial killer in tide Water, Virginia, a 52 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:36,079 killer who may have been hunting and killing for as long as forty years. 53 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,120 I'm Cheryl Matt McCollum, the host of z Own seven, an active CSI, 54 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,800 and I am joined here by Kristin Dilley, a podcaster, a teacher, 55 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:55,000 a writer, and a victim's advocate, along with Bill Thomas, the 56 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,720 brother of Kathy Thomas, one of the first victims of the cl Oil Parkway 57 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,240 murder, also a podcaster and writer and TV personality. And I could not 58 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:09,920 be in better company. And I thank you both for allowing me to be 59 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:15,079 here. Yeah, thank you, Matt, thank you. Why don't the 60 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,800 two of you just start by telling us a little bit about who you are 61 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,439 and your podcast and how that came to be Okay, you want to go 62 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:30,079 first. Sure. So I started working with Bill in two thy sixteen when 63 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,439 I got into my head to write a book about his sister's case. We 64 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:42,199 were both teenagers at that point, maybe you were. I was gonna say, 65 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,680 I think you're slightly older than me. Oh god, yes, do 66 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:48,040 we want to pull the age card? No? No, let's just keep 67 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,000 going. You were doing something great. I wasn't. Then you interrupted me. 68 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:56,360 But that's all right, So what else is new? Absolutely, I'll 69 00:05:56,399 --> 00:06:00,399 be quiet now. So I reached out to Bill because I wanted to book 70 00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:03,680 about his sister's case, and thus began the partnership that continues to this day. 71 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:09,319 We started our podcast, Mind Over Murder in twenty twenty. It was 72 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,079 pre pandemic. Please note we were not a pandemic podcast, right. We 73 00:06:14,079 --> 00:06:20,040 were before the pandemic. And that really came about because Bill kepbeen asked to 74 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,079 guest on podcast after podcast and I said, Hey, Bud, when are 75 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,639 you going to start your own podcast? And you said. I said, 76 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,519 I'll do a podcast if you'll do a podcast. Because I figured the last 77 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:39,120 thing the world needs is another white guy have a certain age. That would 78 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:46,079 be me talking about whatever true crime or cars or sports or cooking or you 79 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:48,319 name, whatever your interest might be. I thought, man, that's going 80 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:51,839 to be really boring. But I thought, if we could get a different 81 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:59,800 perspective and have a woman's point of view. Kristen grew up in Williams, 82 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,720 Virginia, where the Colonial Parkway murders are centered. I've never lived in Virginia, 83 00:07:04,519 --> 00:07:10,199 and so she had actually grown up with the Colonial Parkway murders on some 84 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:16,000 levels back when she was a teenager. And interestingly, even though we come 85 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,879 at this from each from our own perspective and Kristen's own life, she was 86 00:07:21,879 --> 00:07:28,360 also touched by violence in that a friend's mother was brutally murdered, which is 87 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:31,240 how she got into the true crime space, much in the same way that 88 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:39,399 I got into true crime because my sister Kathy's unfortunate homicide. But I thought 89 00:07:39,879 --> 00:07:44,720 having the two of us mix it up and come at our stories from two 90 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,720 different points of view would be really good and has been, interestingly, although 91 00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:54,399 where I'm significantly older, if you haven't figured that out already, and we 92 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,000 grew up in different parts of the country, and we come at this thing 93 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,879 from our two differing backgrounds. We actually rarely disagree, although we have a 94 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,800 commitment with the podcast that if Kristin thinks I'm wrong or vice versa, we'll 95 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:15,360 both weigh in. But the truth is we almost always arrive at the same 96 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:20,680 place, and sometimes Kristin will say a lot I've been thinking, and I'll 97 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:22,839 think, Wow, that's a really good idea. I don't know why I 98 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:26,959 didn't think of that, but it's been a really effective partnership. I think 99 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,759 so too. And here's too many more years of doing Mind Ever Murder together 100 00:08:31,839 --> 00:08:35,840 well and moving the Colonial Parkway murders and lots of other cases forward. Y'all 101 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,159 have that chemistry that you just can't predict and you certainly can't force it. 102 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:43,519 It just happens. But what really comes through for me is the friendship. 103 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,799 Yeah, it's very clear. For anybody that maybe doesn't really know the outline 104 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:54,519 of Colonial Parkway murders, can you just give a basic understanding, you want 105 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:56,639 to do this one, you want me to? Why don't you go ahead 106 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:58,840 because it's your sister's case. We'll try to go through really quickly. The 107 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,279 biggest challenge for us in the Colonial Parkway murders is there's all these rabbit holes 108 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,279 you can go down. We'll try to avoid the rabbit holes and just give 109 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,799 you the quick overview if you're not familiar with the case. So with the 110 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:16,159 Colonial Parkway murders, what you have are four double homicides of couples. Sometimes 111 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,879 we say four years, but it's really three nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty 112 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:26,000 nine. It's approximately one couple of year for three years in a row, 113 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,320 starting with my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, who were brutally 114 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,879 murdered in October nineteen eighty six. A year later, a second couple, 115 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,960 David Nobling and Robin Edwards, were murdered under somewhat similar circumstances out about a 116 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,799 half an hour away. So now we're going from October eighty six September nineteen 117 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:56,080 eighty seven. Then the following spring a young couple go missing on a first 118 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,799 date. Robin Edwards and Dave I'm sorry, David stop built, Keith Call 119 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:07,279 and Cassandra Haley disappear on a first date. They're actually never found to this 120 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,360 date. Technically they're missing persons, but it's been thirty six years. I 121 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:16,960 don't think they're walking through the door tomorrow sadly, and then finally a fourth 122 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:22,919 couple is killed. Daniel Lower and Anna Maria Phelps were killed and they went 123 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,279 missing over Labor Day weekend nineteen eighty nine, and then their bodies are found 124 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:35,399 about six weeks later in a hunt club. Now one quick thing with the 125 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:41,840 Colonial Parkway murders. Interestingly, the only serious couple is actually the lesbian couple 126 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,799 My sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski. I've been seeing each other for 127 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:50,679 about six months or so at the time of their deaths, and we actually 128 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:54,720 hadn't met Becky yet. We were supposed to meet her that Thanksgiving, and 129 00:10:54,759 --> 00:11:01,919 of course they died in October. The other couples are almost somewhere between on 130 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:07,679 a first date and traveling companions. For Robin Edwards and David Nobling they met 131 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:13,840 that day. For Keith Calling Cassandra Haley, they were literally on a first 132 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:20,639 date. I went to a college party and disappeared thereafter. And Anna Maria 133 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:31,759 Phelps and Daniel Lower. Anna's actually dating his brother Clint, and so they're 134 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:35,840 traveling together down to Virginia Beach, and time permitting, we'll get into more 135 00:11:35,919 --> 00:11:41,120 detail, but we say couples a lot, but we're actually not necessarily talking 136 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,919 about serious couples. We're actually talking about people that kind of almost don't know 137 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:52,360 each other very well. Like many of you. I feel invested in this 138 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,200 case because Bill and I when we first met, and y'all, I've worked 139 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,399 with hundreds of families, but let me tell you about Bill Thomas. We're 140 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:03,120 talking on the phone and I said, you don't know me, but I 141 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:07,919 think there might be a forensic thing we can try here on your sister's case. 142 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,720 So I mentioned the m vat if y'all are premier with Jerry Bradley, 143 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,240 he's here. He said, I don't know what that is? What is 144 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,080 it? So I told him very briefly, y'all. The next thing I 145 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,919 know, I see on Facebook where Bill flew to another state to meet with 146 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:26,879 Jared to get this done, and I'm like, this is what I'm talking 147 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,279 about. He is a man of action. It's beyond anything I've ever seen 148 00:12:31,399 --> 00:12:37,200 a family member do quickly and just so controlled about it. And then the 149 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,960 events of January eighth, which I would like for y'all to talk about. 150 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:46,399 I get a text while I'm at work from you, and I'm like, 151 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,320 we know she's teaching. I know she's busy, so I think this must 152 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,440 be something. When I look down and saw there's been a break, it 153 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,840 was almost more than I could take. So I want y'all to talk about 154 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,519 that day because I talked the boat. I talked to you, yes first, 155 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,960 and just the emotion that I could hear it also failed. But y'all 156 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,639 take it from there, honey. January eighth, it was a heck of 157 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:16,039 a day for sure. So on January eighth, the Virginia State Police and 158 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,840 the FBI held a joint press conference, and during that presser, they announced 159 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,639 that Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior, who was sixty three years old of Lancaster, 160 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:33,759 Virginia, had been connected to the Robin Edwards and David Knobline murders via DNA, 161 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:39,879 and this was huge. We also received new information about a victim that 162 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:45,320 we were totally unfamiliar with, a woman by the name of Teresa Howell. 163 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,679 At the same time, we learned that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had died in 164 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:54,840 his home in twenty seventeen, so there was no arrest made, but for 165 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,279 us, it was a very big deal because this is the first significant case 166 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,360 break over the thirty seven years that Bill and his family and the other families 167 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:11,080 have been involved in this case. So this was massive, and it's also 168 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:16,080 the first time that a single homicide victim was connected to the couples in the 169 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Colonial Parkway murders. And so suddenly we're in a whole new world of information 170 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,480 that we're getting. Not only do we have a suspect and he's been linked 171 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:31,960 to be a DNA, but maybe this isn't as cut and dried in terms 172 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,840 of couples killings as we had originally thought. But Bill, you had a 173 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,480 very different experience than I did on January eighth, because you weren't watching the 174 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:46,960 presser. Would you like to tell the good folks out there what you were 175 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:52,799 doing? Yeah, this is interesting. Let's step back for one second. 176 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:56,960 About a year ago, we got a call with a tip, and we've 177 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,279 developed a lot of contacts in law enforce and a lot of a lot of 178 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:09,080 different places, and we've got to call that the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences 179 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:15,120 had applied for and received a SAKI grant. If you're not familiar sexual Assault 180 00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:20,000 Kit Initiative grant, this is federal money that goes to state and local law 181 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:26,519 enforcement to test untested rape kits and other evidence. It's an incredible program. 182 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:33,519 I urge everyone if to ask their law enforcement agencies, have you applied for 183 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,080 a SAKI grant if there's any talk And there was a lot of talk in 184 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,799 our case about we don't have the funding to conduct this forensic test or that 185 00:15:41,919 --> 00:15:48,720 forensic test. So we got a call that the Virginia authorities had requested for 186 00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:54,919 and received a SAKI grant, and that SAKI grant led directly to this big 187 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,639 step that Kristen's talking about. In the Colonial Parkway murders, they test the 188 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:07,200 rape kit from fourteen year old Robin Edwards and that led directly to them identifying 189 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:11,960 Wilmer. And we notice how we keep saying Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One 190 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:17,200 thing we feel really bad about is there is an Alan Wade Wilmer junior, 191 00:16:17,279 --> 00:16:21,159 his son who's a grown man now. So we try to be very specific. 192 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:26,600 We were talking about senior here, but that testing of that evidence, 193 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:33,440 which was very badly degraded. It was over thirty six years old. It 194 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,960 been tested numerous times over the years, and as Matt can tell you, 195 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:44,080 certain types of DNA testing consume the evidence, and it was also evidence that 196 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:52,080 was exposed to seawater, so it's a complicated and difficult sample. The first 197 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:56,039 lab that did the testing was unsuccessful, but the good news is they didn't 198 00:16:56,159 --> 00:17:03,159 use any of the DNA to make this determination. So a second lab was 199 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,960 then asked to do testing. I think I know who it is, but 200 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,720 I don't want to credit the wrong lab, so we'll leave their name out 201 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,799 of it. But it's a highly respected lab who's done other work for us 202 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,720 in the Colonial Parkway murders, and they were able to get a profile that 203 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:25,880 then led directly, we believe, to the identification of the killer of Teresa 204 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Spa Howell, who was the name that Kristin was talking about. The person 205 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:33,599 we were not familiar with because right before they named her, y'all had never 206 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:38,359 even heard her name. Nope, No. Now, our contacts in the 207 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:45,599 media had told us several months prior to the press conference that there have been 208 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:52,119 a development in our case, and they actually had identified for us the suspect, 209 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,920 his brother who's also sometimes mentioned in connection with this case, and Teresa 210 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,799 Howell's name, which was brand new to us. So we knew about this 211 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:10,359 in October twenty twenty three, and then the press conference came on January eighth. 212 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,799 Yes, we didn't get into why I was tied up. I think 213 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,400 we should. I think it's I think it's a fascinating look into what all 214 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,680 has been going on in this case with regard to a certain federal law enforcement 215 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,359 agency that we're not going to name. Sure we are. I will you 216 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,440 go ahead and throw them under the bus. Then he's cool, Okay, 217 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:36,079 happy to and hello to our friends from the Federal Bureau Investigation. Listen to 218 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:37,599 the podcast. By the way, we know this for a fact because they've 219 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,480 even contacted us and asked us to make corrections, which we're always happy to 220 00:18:41,519 --> 00:18:47,079 do. And now the Virginia State Police also listen, so it's fascinating. 221 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,160 So we appreciate the fact that they listen. Then they're gonna watch this thing 222 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:55,240 too. If you are killed, if you were killed inside a national park, 223 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,880 it's an FBI case since day one. Now, remember my family and 224 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,720 I've been dealing with the FBI for thirty seven years. Sometimes there are frustrating 225 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:10,880 moments. This was one of them. Our agent, who I've been working 226 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:18,559 with for the last decade, contacted me to set at seven thirty in the 227 00:19:18,599 --> 00:19:23,759 morning to set up a call that afternoon when it was a Monday. If 228 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:30,160 I'm not it was Monday for one thirty pm. Having worked with this agent 229 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:36,559 for a decade and I really liked this agent, she doesn't usually contacted me 230 00:19:37,039 --> 00:19:40,440 six hours in advance to say, Hey, Bill, can we talk at 231 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,079 one thirty pm? Today? She usually calls me or texts me and asks 232 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,200 me to call her, and probably figured this out. This is a case 233 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:53,559 is very important to me. So usually I'm on the phone with her within 234 00:19:53,759 --> 00:19:59,480 five minutes if I can get away, and my long suffering life partner, 235 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:03,240 Pamela, who it was absolutely wonderful. I can't tell you how many times 236 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,880 I've walked out of dinners, lunches, meetings, you name it to take 237 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:14,440 a call from our FBI agent. But so when she called and said she 238 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:18,480 wanted to talk at one thirty, I thought this is odd. And then 239 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,720 over the course of that morning, Kristen reached out to me and she said 240 00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:29,519 that press conference we've been waiting for, it's happening, and it's happening today, 241 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:33,160 and I said, oh, okay. Short A while later, Kristin 242 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,359 comes back and says, looks like it's going to be at one thirty pm. 243 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:42,359 So I texted our agent back and I said, is it your intention 244 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:48,279 that we're going to watch this press conference together? And she said no, 245 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:53,519 and I said, that's odd. So at one thirty pm, when the 246 00:20:53,519 --> 00:21:00,319 rest of the world was watching the press conference, I was on the phone 247 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,759 with our FBI agent. Now those of you that know me or listen to 248 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:08,440 Mind over Murder know that I tend to be pretty direct. This was done 249 00:21:08,519 --> 00:21:15,680 deliberately so that I couldn't watch the press conference in real time. As you 250 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:21,440 can imagine, while I'm talking to our agent, I got the iPhone set 251 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,880 up on the desk. There the top third of the or so of the 252 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,640 screen is where the texts are coming in. So I'm talking to our agent, 253 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,880 whom I really like, and I'm learning a lot. We talk for 254 00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:40,119 two hours and fifteen minutes, which is long, but by the top of 255 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:45,960 my screen is just blowing up. Bill, are you following this press conference? 256 00:21:45,759 --> 00:21:51,759 Why aren't you commenting on social media or whatever? And the texts start 257 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:55,720 coming in faster and faster. Basically they're saying, built where the hell are 258 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,240 you? Your sister's case is being discussed at a national level, and you're 259 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:06,160 saying nothing. You've gone radio silent, and then of course things explode. 260 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:10,480 After I get off the phone with the FBI two hours and fifteen minutes later, 261 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,519 I literally wasn't able to watch the press conference until ten o'clock that night, 262 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:21,519 when things finally began to calm down. And then I knew why the 263 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:25,759 FBI didn't want me to watch the press conference, because I wasn't going to 264 00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:30,480 be happy. I was thrilled for the two families, and this new family 265 00:22:30,519 --> 00:22:34,400 that we hadn't heard about, the Howells. We were thrilled about this news, 266 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:42,039 but I quickly realized there's a lot of very important information that's not being 267 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:51,599 said publicly about this significant development, the Colonial Parkway murders. First of all, 268 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:59,319 this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, was also a suspect in the 269 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,839 disappear so Keith call and Cassandra Haley. Remember we went through those cases quickly. 270 00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:11,839 They've linked him via DNA to incident number three, but he actually was 271 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:18,119 the leading suspect in incident number two, the disappearance of Keith and Sandy. 272 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:27,039 And even at the press conference, journalists asked, can you say when this 273 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:33,680 man first moved on to your radar, and this is important. They refused 274 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:40,839 to answer the question YEP twice, two different journalists who know this case said 275 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,640 can you say, and they said the answer was no. And so when 276 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:52,000 your law enforcement agencies aren't being straight, you know you have a problem. 277 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,079 Because as soon as I had a chance to watch the press conference at ten 278 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:04,079 o'clock that night, I realized, this guy is the guy I heard about 279 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:11,759 in nineteen eighty eight. This guy was under arrested by the FBI in eighty 280 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:18,200 eight and they let him go, and that's why they didn't want to talk 281 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,160 about this at the presser. Now, Bill, I have a question. 282 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:26,160 First of all, I didn't know the FBI was listening, So I'm Nancy 283 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:36,279 Grace. I would have known that voice anywhere else. I want a few 284 00:24:36,279 --> 00:24:45,799 more questions, Jackie cut Kristen's Mike, Okay, you're in trouble now, 285 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:52,640 But why do you think that the local and state and federal law enforcement turned 286 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,240 a blind eye to this guy? Like, what is your gut feeling about 287 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,640 that? I want to be fair if we're talking about back in eighty eight, 288 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,799 this is real important for everybody to understand. This is before DNA. 289 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,440 Now, remember Wilmer's identified all these years later via DNA, so we have 290 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:12,720 tools now that we didn't back then, and they brought him in. He 291 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,160 was at the absolute top of the list. They referred to him as suspect 292 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,319 number one, but he passed a polygraph once. They gave him a second 293 00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:27,839 one and the results were inconclusive. We've heard unconfirmed rumors that there may be 294 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,680 a second man who was also given a polygraph. The agents, the case 295 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,799 agents, whom my late father used to talk to frequently. These were names 296 00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:42,680 we all knew around the dining room table, and as you can probably imagine, 297 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,640 of the four kids in the family, I was the one that took 298 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:51,440 the greatest amount of interest in Kathy's case. So I remember having a lot 299 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,000 of private conversations with my dad. But we knew that there was a waterman 300 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,799 who was seriously looked at. We were told it was two terman actually in 301 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,480 nineteen eighty eight, so I want to be fair. At the same time, 302 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,319 the case agents were rock solid certain they had identified the right guy, 303 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,599 but I think this is one of those cases where they couldn't prove it. 304 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:22,240 They even told the families during a private family meeting, we are ninety nine 305 00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:26,200 percent sure this is the guy. We are ninety eight percent sure this is 306 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,759 the guy. And I want to make sure that we don't move too fast 307 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:37,000 past the point that I think is most important and that we don't want to 308 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,759 get lost, which is the fact that after this guy was let go in 309 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:49,240 nineteen eighty eight, he murdered Teresa Howell. Teresa Howell is dead because the 310 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:56,079 FBI polygraphed him and cleared him and let him go. TERSA how would not 311 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:03,240 be dead otherwise. And this is where we get in to the discomfort of 312 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,640 the FBI. And then there's all this weirdness that's going on in the background 313 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,039 of this case now, where they've told dozens of people don't talk to Bill 314 00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:15,240 Thomas, and of course most of those people their first thought is who the 315 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:22,000 heck is Bill Thomas. And then when they find out who I am and 316 00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:26,440 who we are, they end up they listen to Mine over Murder and they 317 00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:32,559 learn more about the case, and then these people call me, and so 318 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,599 all these people are coming out of the woodwork and guess in a good way 319 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,680 with more information, and of course we're trying desperately to steer those people back 320 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:47,599 towards law enforcement. But this is where I think law enforcement makes a tremendous 321 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,240 mistake by playing all these stupid reindeer games like don't talk to Bill Thomas. 322 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,759 Look, I get it, I have a big mouth, and I know 323 00:27:55,759 --> 00:28:00,559 I'm a bit of a handful, but I'm trying to figure out who killed 324 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,880 my sister. But telling people don't talk to Bill Thomas, all it makes 325 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,920 them to do is think I got to track this guy down. And I 326 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,319 told the FBI the occasional lapses into profanity. My mom would not be very 327 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,160 proud of me. I told them as recently as a few weeks ago. 328 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,279 You guys are fing this case up beyond all measure. And by the way, 329 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,200 telling everybody in this case don't talk to Bill Thomas is completely not working. 330 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,920 I have actually started now. You know how we all get bothered by 331 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,759 spam calls. It's like a lot of people I stopped answering my phone if 332 00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:40,680 it's a number I don't recognize. New policy. If you're from Virginia and 333 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,039 you call, I'm going to talk to you. And a lot of these 334 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,839 folks are saying very tentatively at first, I am someones you don't know me 335 00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:53,480 have information and in most examples, I'm like, I'm very happy to hear 336 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,839 from you and actually do know who you are. You're listening to mind over 337 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:07,000 Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 338 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,240 here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted 339 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,039 to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right now. 340 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:21,680 This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder 341 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:27,359 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if 342 00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:32,920 you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation from five 343 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,920 dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. 344 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:41,519 The link is in the show notes and in our social media pages. 345 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:47,119 As always, thanks for your support. Now back to Mind over Murder. 346 00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:52,039 But listen, we're five months in now. Yeah, what questions do you 347 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,599 still have about Wilmer? If you want to fire away, we have so 348 00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:00,680 much that we want to know about Wilmer, and I want to make sure 349 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:07,960 that we focus not only on victimology to but also the issues that you were 350 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,519 talking about, which is how was he allowed after a year, given that 351 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,359 law enforcement knew he was harassing couples on the Colonial Parkway. How was this 352 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:25,240 guy allowed to continue going on doing what he was doing? But is so 353 00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:29,000 many things that we want to know. How did he actually choose his victims 354 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:33,440 in the first place? Is this random? Or is he stalking them? 355 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,640 How did he approach his victims? One of the things that you'll notice if 356 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,480 you come by our booth is we are handing out postcards with all of this 357 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:47,680 information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. And it includes some photos of his 358 00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:52,039 very distinctive truck with a Vanity license plate to the state of Virginia. We're 359 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,319 big on those and his vote that Jenny Wade. We would really like to 360 00:30:56,359 --> 00:31:00,720 know how did he approach his victims? Was he approaching on foot? Was 361 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:04,640 he approaching in the truck? Was he approaching in his boat? We want 362 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,759 to know what locations was Wilmer frequenting when he was visiting our area because he 363 00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:15,839 did not live in Tidewater. He lived in Lancaster County and he was coming 364 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,440 down here to do work as a waterman. So what areas was he frequenting? 365 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,200 Was he frequently off the Colonial Parkway, Was he up in Middlesex, 366 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:29,680 was he at Hampton? Where was he We're very curious about the behavior that 367 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:33,759 he exhibited to his family and friends. Did anybody have an inkling that this 368 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,240 was going on? And then, of course we really do want to know 369 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,880 exactly what you've been curious about, which is why was he allowed to go 370 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:48,240 free even after passing this polygraph? If he was a prime suspect in Keith 371 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:52,599 call In Sandy Haley's disappearances, that is just inexplicable to both of us. 372 00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:57,039 There's a lot to unpack there. And then there is the potential that he 373 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:02,960 might be involved in other low cold cases. And despite the fact that the 374 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,079 two of us say we are not investigators, we do a certain amount of 375 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,839 digging in our copious amounts. And there are a number of local cold cases 376 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,839 that I think Wilmer might be potentially connected to, and those are things that 377 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,200 we are exploring. I had forty years, he's had forty years that he 378 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,680 could be doing this for. And we have a lot of cold cases in 379 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:27,640 Virginia. And like when we talked, he had more than one vehicle, 380 00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,839 more than one way to stalk people. He had a truck, he had 381 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:32,920 a business that would allow him to go here and there. He also had 382 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:38,200 a boat, so he could literally see down the Colonial Parkway, either from 383 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:45,319 the roadway or the waterway. So it's an extraordinary to me vantage point when 384 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:50,680 you're stalking people, no question about it. And there are dozens of reports 385 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:57,279 of someone matching Wilmer's description driving this very distinctive truck that Kristen was talking about, 386 00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:01,640 yep, approaching them like a po police officer would, demanding driver's licenses, 387 00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:06,839 but interestingly not wearing a cop uniform, but something more like what a 388 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,400 mechanic or a waterman would wear. But he'd come up and blitz attack them, 389 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,799 banging on the window, demanding driver's licenses, interestingly never asking for registrations, 390 00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:22,599 which a real cop would ask for. And what I can't figure out 391 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,359 is the FBIS told me this over the years, they had dozens and dozens 392 00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:31,599 of reports. Why was the FBI and the National Park Service never able to 393 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:38,160 put together the fact that this is all the same guy. These couples coming 394 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,160 forward and saying we're parked, we're making out, and all of a sudden 395 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,759 there's this short, stocky, very beefy guy, only five to five pounding 396 00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:51,920 on the window, demanding driver's licenses, telling us we're in the wrong place, 397 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,599 or that we're not supposed to be there, like a cop would or 398 00:33:53,640 --> 00:34:01,839 a National Park Service ranger would it. Why didn't they ever revisit him after 399 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:08,079 they gave him the polygraph back in eighty eight? He was a really righteous 400 00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:13,840 suspect. This guy checked so many boxes in the Colonial Parkway murders. It's 401 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,719 scary. I need a polygraph. That could be a whole another session. 402 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,840 But the reality is, depending on what you're asked, in the order you're 403 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:27,199 asked it, it could change whether or not you could pass a polygraph. 404 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,679 So again, if he's just asked, were you here at this time? 405 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,800 And if he wasn't, he could pass that question. So what would y'all 406 00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:37,960 like to see from law enforcement? Now? What would you like to see 407 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:43,880 them do it? From my point of view, the lack of transparency is 408 00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:46,519 just appalling. They would have been so much better off. And I did 409 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:52,039 marketing and communications for thirty years. I'm not a law enforcement person and we're 410 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:58,119 not investigators, as Kristen said, but they would have been better off back 411 00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:01,679 on January eighth, if they had said, we questioned this guy in nineteen 412 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,079 eighty eight, and we didn't have DNA back then, and he passed a 413 00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:10,719 polygraph exam. I think they would have been better off if they just sucked 414 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,960 it up and took their lumps. We understand that a case like this has 415 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:22,719 got problems and complications that have occurred. It shouldn't be required that Kristin Dilly 416 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:30,199 and Bill Thomas and local and extremely well informed people from the media and the 417 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,559 press, that we're suddenly saying, you're skipping over some really important details here, 418 00:35:35,679 --> 00:35:40,239 folks, yep, and that actually, and this saddens me to say 419 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,719 this, because, believe it or not, I see myself as a supporter 420 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,320 of law enforcement. I want to help, we want to help, yes, 421 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:55,239 but when they failed to deal with things in a straightforward manner, good, 422 00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:01,719 bad, and indifferent, they're building distrust. One of the things we 423 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,119 just did two live podcast events in Virginia, both of which sold out immediately 424 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,519 and were very successful. We got a lot of support, which we very 425 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:16,599 much appreciated. But one of the things people said at these live podcast events 426 00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:20,599 we presented on the case, then we took an hour of questions. At 427 00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:24,519 the end of each session. People said to us Kristen and Bill, you're 428 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:32,880 the only people that are answering questions honestly about the Colonial Parkway murders. I 429 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,119 don't know how the heck two podcasters and one of whom was the brother of 430 00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:43,599 one of the victims. I don't know how it falls to us, but 431 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,360 people are saying, no one from law enforcement will answer these questions honestly. 432 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:57,480 Again, that give you another session. Thanks Nancy, You're welcome, Nancy 433 00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:02,000 Grace, come see meet podcast everybody. Because I think social media is a 434 00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:08,239 powerful thing. And I will just say this and not to change anything that 435 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,880 you just said, but I think there is power in hearing from Kathy's brother 436 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,599 and in a way that law enforcement couldn't do it. I can talk about 437 00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:23,119 my sisters like nobody else, and I think that, to me is what 438 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:29,440 draws people to you. And then when we hear from your friend and your 439 00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:32,440 partner in every sense of the word in this investigation, and y'all keep saying 440 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:37,000 you're not investigators to make a point, but I am, and I will 441 00:37:37,039 --> 00:37:45,920 tell you, yes, you are. You are. So when you talk 442 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,800 about social media and that powerful presence, there are pages that the families have 443 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,599 put up and y'all have championed, so let them know how to find those 444 00:37:53,639 --> 00:38:00,519 pages too. Yeah, we have a lot of social media pages regards the 445 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:04,639 case. We have Colonial Parkway Murders, which is all of the information that 446 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,199 you could possibly want. We have our mind over Murder podcast page. But 447 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:15,079 we also have family members of the victims who started social media pages before we 448 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:22,199 ever hit the scene, and Keith Call and Cassandra Haley's families started a social 449 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,119 media page called whatever Happened to Richard, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. And 450 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,400 we also have a second page run by the families called Colonial Parkway Murder. 451 00:38:31,159 --> 00:38:36,639 I'm sorry Colonial Parkway Victim's gone, but not forgotten. We also run our 452 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:40,159 own websites, Colonial Parkway Murders dot com and mindover Murder podcast dot com. 453 00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:45,800 We are very active in those spaces and we are attempting to do everything that 454 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,480 we can to get out the information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. And 455 00:38:50,519 --> 00:38:55,280 we encourage anyone who has any information at all of any variety to please come 456 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:00,360 forward to us, either anonymously or with an I AM attached to it, 457 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,280 and tell us what you think you may know. There is no detail that 458 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,440 is too small. In this case, we got tips, major tips in 459 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:14,239 the Colonial Park murders a year little less than a year ago at the last 460 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:19,679 crime con. Now, there was a bit of a kerfuffle with the FBI 461 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,159 because I didn't have all the particulars. It took me a little time to 462 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:30,440 track the husband and wife team who were here at crime Con in Orlando, 463 00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:35,880 and things got a little heated, and the FBI threatened to bring me up 464 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:43,599 on federal obstruction of justice charges. My response, and my late mom again 465 00:39:43,639 --> 00:39:47,400 would not be proud of me, was if you go right ahead, because 466 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:55,199 I said, as I said to the FBI, on what planet am I 467 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,960 going to be withholding information in my sister's unsolved murder case? That doesn't make 468 00:40:02,119 --> 00:40:07,039 any sense. Yeah, you've shared more than he has. Yeah. Now, 469 00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:12,119 I was ultimately able to track these wonderful people down and get their information 470 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,760 to the FBI, and we smooth things out a little bit. So I 471 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:22,079 think I'm not on the Christmas card list anymore, but I'm not being actively 472 00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:25,360 threatened with being brought up on charges. I think that's a good segue. 473 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,480 I think we should honor the victims and talk about them a little bit. 474 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,679 Yeah, I think it's really important to remember the fact that thirty seven years 475 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,519 have passed five for these cases, and that is for Kathy and Becky in 476 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:42,119 particular. And what we put up on the screen in front of you is 477 00:40:42,159 --> 00:40:45,599 the ages that these victims would be now had they lift And I want to 478 00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:49,880 very quickly name the victims in the ages that they would currently be. Robin 479 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,320 Edwards, who was fourteen when she died, would be fifty one today. 480 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,000 Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three, Sandra Haley would be fifty four, 481 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,280 Marian Powell, whose case may be connected as well, would be fifty four 482 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,719 years old. Keith Call would be fifty six, Daniel Lower would be fifty 483 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,519 six, David Nobling would be fifty seven, Becky Dawski would be fifty nine. 484 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,440 Brian Pattenger, whose case may also be connected, would be sixty one, 485 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,320 Terry Hall would be sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five 486 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,599 years old. It's amazing, Yeah, thank you for that. And you're 487 00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:29,119 gonna have an opportunity in a little bit. We're gonna open up the house 488 00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:34,440 lights and you're gonna be able to ask Kristen and Bill questions yourself and they 489 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,440 will answer anything. You see how obviously how open and honest they are. 490 00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:43,000 They would love to talk to you and have questions. So while you're thinking 491 00:41:43,039 --> 00:41:45,679 about those and come into the two microphones, I will tell you something both 492 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:51,000 about the two of them. So Kristin Dilley is one of those people. 493 00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:54,840 If she sees that maybe you've had a rough case or a rough day or 494 00:41:57,119 --> 00:42:00,719 something may be going on, she checks in with you immediately. And that's 495 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,800 the kind of thing to me that is just extraordinary about her. Bill Thomas 496 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:10,280 is no different. Walk Na decided, David and I decided we were gonna 497 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:16,719 take the twins on a trip, and we got into New York and our 498 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,639 car broke down. Bill lives in Connecticut, calls me immediately and says, 499 00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:25,079 hey, you need me to come get you. You can stay at the 500 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:30,039 house. This is who they are, So I just want you to know 501 00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,760 that it's not something they do part time. They are friend and just have 502 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,559 your back at all times. So we have somebody at a microphone, so 503 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:42,199 if we want to open up the house lights so y'all can see them. 504 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,320 Yeah, Hi, my name is Rachel, my mom and my brother and 505 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,119 I are here and we all live in Richmond, so we're familiar with the 506 00:42:49,159 --> 00:42:52,440 case and particularly familiar with you guys. What I want to ask is about 507 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:59,679 the inability of law enforcement to put Allen Wade Wilmercy and Ann to COOTIS and 508 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,679 what sorts of alternatives this there? Have they talked to his son or any 509 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:10,599 of his children about providing DNA there? Yeah, this is a thank you. 510 00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:15,960 It's a fantastic question, and we appreciate it. And I think this 511 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:21,920 is going to be a much larger issue than just the Colonial Parkway murders because 512 00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:30,599 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was never charged with a crime and certainly not a felony 513 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:37,239 during the time that he was alive. According to the FBI and the Virginia 514 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:44,920 State Police, they cannot put his DNA into the CODIS system. And we 515 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,159 just think this is flat out wrong. Alan Wade Wilmer Senior has been dead 516 00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:57,840 since twenty seventeen. What civil rights are we possibly protecting? Guy's been dead 517 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:06,400 for six years on seven now. We have a lot of friends that have 518 00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:13,960 been incredibly helpful to the case and helping moving it forward. Beyond just our 519 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:21,360 good friend Nancy here and so one of our law enforcement partners who's worked this 520 00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:25,119 case and is now retired in a bit more free to speak. Frankly, 521 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:32,400 he had said, Bill, I think the FBI is your biggest problem in 522 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:38,039 terms of roadblocks, but he said the Virginia State Police are probably a close 523 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:45,519 second, and he said, you can't lose sight of this fact that they 524 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:50,400 don't want to put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, and they're using this 525 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,320 as an excuse because if they put Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's DNA into the 526 00:44:54,320 --> 00:45:01,119 CODA system, it will light up like an f and Christmas other unsolved murders 527 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:07,159 and wait for it. There may be even some cases in Virginia that other 528 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:13,920 people have gone to jail for that are actually committed by Wilmer. We believe 529 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,000 this guy may be involved and his brothers as well, in cases extending back 530 00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:23,920 forty years. This guy has literally been getting away with murder, perhaps for 531 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,280 as long as four decades. So there's a big incentive for law enforcement to 532 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,239 say, oh, oh, we can't put the indo cotis. I actually 533 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:38,440 think we need to be adjusting the rules for CODIS. If this SOB is 534 00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:43,519 dead, let's just put it in there and let the chips fall where they 535 00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:47,880 may. But you'll notice that there's a discomfort on the part of law enforcement 536 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,719 to treating this case in a transparent way. That's at least the third time 537 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:59,000 I've used that word today, and so that's a real challenge for us. 538 00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:02,039 And we actually don't have an acceptable answer right now. I wish we did. 539 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:07,639 Ultimately, we think we're going to have to pursue maybe even legislation. 540 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:13,239 And here's another crazy thing. We have fifty different sets of rules. Every 541 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:19,199 state in the Union has different rules for how they handled DNA and CODIS. 542 00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:25,079 We just talked about that on a Monday's episode of Mind Over Murder Lindsay Wade, 543 00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:30,960 who is a fantastic, very accomplished investigator whose book is nominated as one 544 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,159 of the best books of the year. Her book in My DNA, and 545 00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:38,320 she explained to us, not that we completely understood at all, and not 546 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:44,679 that some of the answers were not unacceptable, but she was explaining how we 547 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,639 ended up with this bizarre system where instead of having one set of rules, 548 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,559 you know, like a real country, as opposed to fifty different sets of 549 00:46:54,639 --> 00:47:00,199 rules. And I think we the big we need to do better. It's 550 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,960 our intention when we salve the Colonial Parkway murders. Note the optimism. I 551 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,760 actually want to pivot to this larger issue of there are two hundred and fifty 552 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:14,360 thousand cold case homicides in the United States that ought to be a national scandal 553 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:17,920 at this point. Think about it. A quarter of a million, and 554 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:27,320 that numbers probably low cold case homicides in the United States. That's insane and 555 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,800 as Lindsay was explaining to us on Monday's episode, fifty different sets of rules. 556 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,559 This makes no sense whatsoever. Right, Yes, ma'am, yess. 557 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:39,360 Just to follow up, my name is Anne. Is there a way to 558 00:47:39,519 --> 00:47:47,159 legislatively in Virginia do something about the Codis rule. This is something we're starting 559 00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:52,840 to explore, and this is something that our listeners supporters are very interested in 560 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,199 taking a look at you. I think you'd have a lot of support from 561 00:47:55,199 --> 00:47:59,480 this audience and from the whole of crime con Yeah, right, all, 562 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:06,400 just like change the law. Yes, yeah, my name is Jim. 563 00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:10,280 I have two quick questions. One is, has anybody talked to his family 564 00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:15,800 about putting their DNA in like a twenty three and me kind of database so 565 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,599 we could do some genetic testing ahead. We have been in touch with his 566 00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:25,239 family, and they have been They're appalled by what they have learned about their 567 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:30,199 family member, and they do want to help in every way that they possibly 568 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,880 can, and so we are working actively to talk with the family, and 569 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,360 because they are willing to help, we hope that someplace they're willing to go. 570 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:44,559 Bill, I know you spent more time talking to his family members than 571 00:48:44,639 --> 00:48:47,320 I have. Is that something that they've indicated they're willing to do. They 572 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:52,760 seemed willing to do anything to help, which is I never I thought. 573 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,280 I talked to Christen about this. I said, I'm now talking to the 574 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:06,079 potential serial killers family who this person may have killed our sister. It's just 575 00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:10,239 like, Wow, I didn't expect it to go into that twist the attorney 576 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,400 place, but they seem very willing to help in any way, and they've 577 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:21,880 actually been lovely. And the truth is we see them as victims too, 578 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:27,599 and they're not responsible for something that their ex husband father in law did, 579 00:49:28,519 --> 00:49:34,199 but boy talk about a situation that they hadn't anticipated. But they seem willing 580 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,280 to do anything to help law enforcement get to the bottom of the case. 581 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:42,960 And it's something I've always wondered about You've been working on your sister's case for 582 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,000 forty years. It's solved, So now what do you do? Is there 583 00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:52,320 a letdown? Is there? Sorry, I can tell you what he's gonna 584 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,239 do. Yeah, we're not there yet, but he's just getting started. 585 00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:00,679 Yeah. I actually would like to work on this these broader issues because it's 586 00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:05,960 funny. We've interviewed a lot of people from other cases. We don't just 587 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,320 talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, and boy, it's pretty easy I find 588 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:16,760 to put myself in the shoes of somebody who's gone through something somewhat similar, 589 00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:21,800 because it's an experience that we all share. What John Walsh says, the 590 00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:25,119 you're invited to join the club that no one wants to be invited to join. 591 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:30,840 So I think our intent would be to broaden out to these other issues. 592 00:50:30,039 --> 00:50:36,400 Absolutely. Yep. The remarkable thing is Kathy will be responsible through you 593 00:50:37,159 --> 00:50:40,159 of helping thousands and thousands of families. Yeah, now, to me is 594 00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:44,920 a remarkable thing, and what a legacy for both of you. Yeah, 595 00:50:45,079 --> 00:50:50,039 because she wanted to serve her country and she is. Yeah, yes, 596 00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:52,119 that's true. Thank you. Hi, my name is Crystal. Thank you 597 00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:55,320 for doing this. And I listen to your podcast. I really like it. 598 00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,199 My question relates to your the Colonial Parkway murder, but also just Virginia 599 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,559 more broadly. I was in grad school in Virginia in the nineteen nineties, 600 00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:07,400 so I recall it's a dangerous place. I didn't know at the time, 601 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,599 but it's a dangerous place. I still am a Virginia resident, and just 602 00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:15,599 being aware of whether it's these cases and just listening to you all talk about 603 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:21,440 the challenges that you've faced in trying to just get more information and help law 604 00:51:21,519 --> 00:51:24,119 enforcement, but then also the Route twenty nine, Stoker, the Shannando. 605 00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:29,000 I'm leaving a few others off, but the more I learn, I just 606 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,480 I'm learning that it seems like there's a lot of cold cases, potential frankly 607 00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:37,639 serial killers that have been roaming around Virginia for several decades. So my question 608 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:44,239 is there is anybody looking into this or more broadly, like is there in 609 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,440 other states you'll have like the state police that may have a task for it, 610 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,119 the two people that are trying to put together all the code cases or 611 00:51:51,159 --> 00:51:53,639 something, and I'm not hearing anything like that in Virginia. Just seems like 612 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:59,519 it's just this black hole of cases that are clearly at least about three or 613 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:04,559 four major serial killer type cases, and they've just gone into a black hole. 614 00:52:04,599 --> 00:52:07,760 So I'm just just knowing that you guys are aware of and involved in 615 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,440 a lot of what's going on in Virginia. I'm just curious if you have 616 00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:14,559 anything to say or to share with those of us who are in Virginia in 617 00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,360 response to that. It is weird, isn't it. How are so many 618 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:22,639 serial killers in Virginia and a lot of them were operating at the same time. 619 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,719 If you look at someone like Randy Taylor, who was operating at the 620 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,480 same time as Jesse Matthew, for example, in the same area around Charlottesville, 621 00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:37,360 how inexplicable is it that you have two serial killers in the exact same 622 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,119 area, right around the exact same time. It is a little weird. 623 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:45,480 We do have some podcasting colleagues who are also interested in looking into the very 624 00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:50,239 things that you've brought up, and so we do work with them and explore 625 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,559 these kind of concepts of why are there so many serial killers in this area 626 00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:58,440 of Virginia. Why hasn't more been done to try to figure out why? 627 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,239 Precisely that might be but yeah, that is definitely something that we're interested in, 628 00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:06,239 and we have been watching with satisfaction the creation of the Virginia Cold Case 629 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:13,480 Database and are very interested in seeing how that database grows and develops over the 630 00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:15,639 next couple of years. That if you want a good afternoon's worth of reading 631 00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:20,360 and go into the Virginia Cold Case Database for a little bit. It's interesting, 632 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,119 but it's also kind of hair raising. Just like you said, is 633 00:53:22,119 --> 00:53:28,840 anyone working those cases. We think there's more of an effort being made now, 634 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,159 and of course it's exciting when you start to see some solves and family 635 00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:37,920 members are getting answer. So our sense of it is that more resources are 636 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:45,599 being put into these cases, certainly more than in recent years. Yes, 637 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,599 Hi, my name's Christina. First, I want to say I really admire 638 00:53:49,639 --> 00:53:53,239 all the dedication and love and the way you've honored your sister. We should 639 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:58,320 all be so lucky to have a brother like you. I mean, agreed, 640 00:54:00,199 --> 00:54:04,639 thank you. I was just curious if this way, senior, if 641 00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:07,760 you guys have gotten any facts about his life, did he have like domestic 642 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,280 violence, animal cruelty? The neighbors complaining what we're getting so far and we're 643 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,760 not experts on all things Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. But there almost seem like 644 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:25,599 two. He's living two lives. His family and friends and people that knew 645 00:54:25,679 --> 00:54:30,760 him in Lancaster County, which is a couple hours north of Williamsburg, they 646 00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:39,480 don't for the most part, they don't have any experiences with him that are 647 00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:45,199 consistent with the idea of him being a serial killer. Now they do understand 648 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,519 that he's definitely linked via DNA to the murder of at least three people, 649 00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:53,320 and I think there are more. But it almost sounds like after he was 650 00:54:53,360 --> 00:55:01,159 married for six years, they were divorced, and after his divorce, as 651 00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:07,880 he would make his way down towards what Kristin calls the Tidewater area of Virginia 652 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:13,719 where he's working with the boat fishing, crabbing, oystering, he seems to 653 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:22,079 then move into this really extended dark period. Now his family is potentially linked 654 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:30,440 with other murders in Lancaster County, also unsolved, and which extend back, 655 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:35,679 and that's where we're getting the forty years from. But Wilmer's kind of acting 656 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:40,199 out, if you will, or being an active serial killer, seems to 657 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:50,440 be concentrated mostly when he's living down in the Hampton, Virginia area, working 658 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,079 on his boat. It's a real doctor Jackyl mister Hyde sort of thing. 659 00:55:53,119 --> 00:55:58,039 If you'll pardon the English teacher reference for a couple of minutes. Yes, 660 00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:06,039 my name's Emily. I was actually really curious how you decided to start the 661 00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:10,559 podcast. Was there something about your work on the cases that made you think, 662 00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:14,639 hey, we can reach a wider audience with the podcast, or was 663 00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,440 there another reason why you decided to start the podcast. Oh. I think 664 00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:27,079 it's because I had guested on many of the podcasts here on now we're calling 665 00:56:27,079 --> 00:56:34,159 it Creator's Row Podcast Row, and a number of those podcasters said, Bill, 666 00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,280 you're really good at this. You should do a podcast of your own. 667 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,559 And Kristin heard them sometimes even say it on the air, and she 668 00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:45,079 said, yeah, you should do a podcast. I said, let's do 669 00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:50,000 a podcast together, and we thought it would be a logical outgrowth of the 670 00:56:50,039 --> 00:56:54,199 work that we were doing together to move the Colonial Parkway murders forward and one 671 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,679 of the things that we've tried to do. And for those of you that 672 00:56:58,679 --> 00:57:02,159 are listened to the podcast, we've met all these amazing people along the way. 673 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:10,800 You meet somebody like Cheryl mccoum, and she's got this fascinating background as 674 00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:16,840 a real life CSI. So not only is she helping us and providing us 675 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:22,039 with great advice and educating us quite frankly. We then turn around and we 676 00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:27,599 said, hey, would you come on our new podcast and she says yes. 677 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,199 And so all these amazing people that we've met over the last fifteen years 678 00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:39,320 or so, we've asked them to come on our show and talk. We 679 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:45,400 talk with authors and investigators and forensics experts, and a lot of what we're 680 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:51,800 doing is we're talking with people that we would like to get to know better 681 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,639 and learn from and taking the audience along for the ride. And I think 682 00:57:55,679 --> 00:58:00,320 people have really enjoyed that as a result, and we thank you all very 683 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,639 much for coming along on the ride with us. We really appreciate you. 684 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,039 Thank you for coming to speaking our booth and to pick up some of this 685 00:58:07,159 --> 00:58:10,519 information about Ellen wid Wilmer Senior. We are on Creator's Row boot sixty one, 686 00:58:10,599 --> 00:58:14,400 right next to Mac. I was just gonna say, I know, 687 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,440 there's two people still at the microphone, but we literally have fifteen seconds left. 688 00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:21,960 We have to move so the other people can set up, but they 689 00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:25,800 are on creator's row. Please come by and talk to them. They need 690 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,119 to talk to you, ma'am. So I'm going to make sure y'all connect. 691 00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:37,400 Okay, absolutely, Thank y'all so much. Thank you man. That 692 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:51,159 would cool. We hope you enjoyed the session. As a reminder, if 693 00:58:51,199 --> 00:58:54,280 you're heading out for another session or taking a quick break, please collect all 694 00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:00,400 your personal belongings before exiting for security purposes. No bad or personal items may 695 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:17,320 be left unattended at any time. Thank you for your cooperation. Mind Over 696 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:23,760 Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers 697 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:29,559 are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 698 00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:35,320 Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership 699 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,960 with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or 700 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:44,760 Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 701 00:59:45,079 --> 00:59:49,320 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five 702 00:59:49,480 --> 01:00:07,400 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. About