You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Please welcome to the stage. Bill Thomas and Kristin
Dilly victims advocates, writers, and the co host of the Mind over Murder
podcast. They are joined by their moderator and crime con favorite Cheryl McCollum and
Atlanta based CSI and host of this own seven podcast, Let's Do This,
Baby. Yeah, I'll be keeping this. Thank you. Oh are these
souvenir pillows? Yes, I've never seen them. Hey, let's get something
out of the way. Real quick. For thirty seven years, Bill Thomas
has fault for his sister yep, which makes me old. Seriously, thirty
seven years. I just find that not only heartwarming but just so impressive.
And I'm going to tell you something else. When it's your family and you're
fighting for justice and you're hitting the streets every day, that is amazing.
But when you can find a sidekick that is just as devoted and works just
as hard like Kristen, I don't know what to say about her except just
extraordinary human being. So I just wanted to get that out of the way
because we were here at crime Con last year and somebody was like, oh,
I know who that is. That's I don't want to say what they
said. I'm not going to repeat it, but they lessened what she does
and what she and Bill do together. So I just wanted to say out
loud, this is a partnership. They are both investigators, they are both
podcasters, they both have such a hand and why we are here today,
So let's talk about while we're here today, let's talk about and we don't
always get to say this from this stage, so I'm will stand up and
say it. We got a break in the case, and it's in large
part because of what these two were doing. I'm not gonna take up any
more time because just let you know, I could. I could talk about
Bill and Christen in a long time. But I even have notes because I
don't know if y'all know this, but Krista Dilley is a professional educatory and
she has sent me a few notes. Had a flashback from high school,
I would get one email. Here's the PowerPoint review it. Please, here
are some side notes. Please review and get back to me. Here are
the questions that I would like for you to ask. I'm so BOSSI not
bossy, but honey, we're gonna stay on track and we're gonna stay on
point. Is that fine? And I love her for it. So if
it's all right with y'all, I'm just gonna kick this off. You go
ahead. That gravy, all right right ahead. On January eighth, twenty
twenty four, the FBI in the Virginia State Police held a joint press conference
in Norfolk, Virginia, announcing the identity of the perpetrator of the nineteen eighty
seven murders of Robin Edwards and David Noban, one of the four double homicides
in the group collectively known as the Colonial Parkway Murders. The perpetrator, Alan
Wade Wilmer, Senior, was a commercial waterman deceased since twenty seventeen, and
had been linked to three of the victims via DNA. Today, we're going
to take you all inside the explosive and dramatic developments in the Colonial Parkway murders
and this discovery of a new serial killer in tide Water, Virginia, a
killer who may have been hunting and killing for as long as forty years.
I'm Cheryl Matt McCollum, the host of z Own seven, an active CSI,
and I am joined here by Kristin Dilley, a podcaster, a teacher,
a writer, and a victim's advocate, along with Bill Thomas, the
brother of Kathy Thomas, one of the first victims of the cl Oil Parkway
murder, also a podcaster and writer and TV personality. And I could not
be in better company. And I thank you both for allowing me to be
here. Yeah, thank you, Matt, thank you. Why don't the
two of you just start by telling us a little bit about who you are
and your podcast and how that came to be Okay, you want to go
first. Sure. So I started working with Bill in two thy sixteen when
I got into my head to write a book about his sister's case. We
were both teenagers at that point, maybe you were. I was gonna say,
I think you're slightly older than me. Oh god, yes, do
we want to pull the age card? No? No, let's just keep
going. You were doing something great. I wasn't. Then you interrupted me.
But that's all right, So what else is new? Absolutely, I'll
be quiet now. So I reached out to Bill because I wanted to book
about his sister's case, and thus began the partnership that continues to this day.
We started our podcast, Mind Over Murder in twenty twenty. It was
pre pandemic. Please note we were not a pandemic podcast, right. We
were before the pandemic. And that really came about because Bill kepbeen asked to
guest on podcast after podcast and I said, Hey, Bud, when are
you going to start your own podcast? And you said. I said,
I'll do a podcast if you'll do a podcast. Because I figured the last
thing the world needs is another white guy have a certain age. That would
be me talking about whatever true crime or cars or sports or cooking or you
name, whatever your interest might be. I thought, man, that's going
to be really boring. But I thought, if we could get a different
perspective and have a woman's point of view. Kristen grew up in Williams,
Virginia, where the Colonial Parkway murders are centered. I've never lived in Virginia,
and so she had actually grown up with the Colonial Parkway murders on some
levels back when she was a teenager. And interestingly, even though we come
at this from each from our own perspective and Kristen's own life, she was
also touched by violence in that a friend's mother was brutally murdered, which is
how she got into the true crime space, much in the same way that
I got into true crime because my sister Kathy's unfortunate homicide. But I thought
having the two of us mix it up and come at our stories from two
different points of view would be really good and has been, interestingly, although
where I'm significantly older, if you haven't figured that out already, and we
grew up in different parts of the country, and we come at this thing
from our two differing backgrounds. We actually rarely disagree, although we have a
commitment with the podcast that if Kristin thinks I'm wrong or vice versa, we'll
both weigh in. But the truth is we almost always arrive at the same
place, and sometimes Kristin will say a lot I've been thinking, and I'll
think, Wow, that's a really good idea. I don't know why I
didn't think of that, but it's been a really effective partnership. I think
so too. And here's too many more years of doing Mind Ever Murder together
well and moving the Colonial Parkway murders and lots of other cases forward. Y'all
have that chemistry that you just can't predict and you certainly can't force it.
It just happens. But what really comes through for me is the friendship.
Yeah, it's very clear. For anybody that maybe doesn't really know the outline
of Colonial Parkway murders, can you just give a basic understanding, you want
to do this one, you want me to? Why don't you go ahead
because it's your sister's case. We'll try to go through really quickly. The
biggest challenge for us in the Colonial Parkway murders is there's all these rabbit holes
you can go down. We'll try to avoid the rabbit holes and just give
you the quick overview if you're not familiar with the case. So with the
Colonial Parkway murders, what you have are four double homicides of couples. Sometimes
we say four years, but it's really three nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty
nine. It's approximately one couple of year for three years in a row,
starting with my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, who were brutally
murdered in October nineteen eighty six. A year later, a second couple,
David Nobling and Robin Edwards, were murdered under somewhat similar circumstances out about a
half an hour away. So now we're going from October eighty six September nineteen
eighty seven. Then the following spring a young couple go missing on a first
date. Robin Edwards and Dave I'm sorry, David stop built, Keith Call
and Cassandra Haley disappear on a first date. They're actually never found to this
date. Technically they're missing persons, but it's been thirty six years. I
don't think they're walking through the door tomorrow sadly, and then finally a fourth
couple is killed. Daniel Lower and Anna Maria Phelps were killed and they went
missing over Labor Day weekend nineteen eighty nine, and then their bodies are found
about six weeks later in a hunt club. Now one quick thing with the
Colonial Parkway murders. Interestingly, the only serious couple is actually the lesbian couple
My sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski. I've been seeing each other for
about six months or so at the time of their deaths, and we actually
hadn't met Becky yet. We were supposed to meet her that Thanksgiving, and
of course they died in October. The other couples are almost somewhere between on
a first date and traveling companions. For Robin Edwards and David Nobling they met
that day. For Keith Calling Cassandra Haley, they were literally on a first
date. I went to a college party and disappeared thereafter. And Anna Maria
Phelps and Daniel Lower. Anna's actually dating his brother Clint, and so they're
traveling together down to Virginia Beach, and time permitting, we'll get into more
detail, but we say couples a lot, but we're actually not necessarily talking
about serious couples. We're actually talking about people that kind of almost don't know
each other very well. Like many of you. I feel invested in this
case because Bill and I when we first met, and y'all, I've worked
with hundreds of families, but let me tell you about Bill Thomas. We're
talking on the phone and I said, you don't know me, but I
think there might be a forensic thing we can try here on your sister's case.
So I mentioned the m vat if y'all are premier with Jerry Bradley,
he's here. He said, I don't know what that is? What is
it? So I told him very briefly, y'all. The next thing I
know, I see on Facebook where Bill flew to another state to meet with
Jared to get this done, and I'm like, this is what I'm talking
about. He is a man of action. It's beyond anything I've ever seen
a family member do quickly and just so controlled about it. And then the
events of January eighth, which I would like for y'all to talk about.
I get a text while I'm at work from you, and I'm like,
we know she's teaching. I know she's busy, so I think this must
be something. When I look down and saw there's been a break, it
was almost more than I could take. So I want y'all to talk about
that day because I talked the boat. I talked to you, yes first,
and just the emotion that I could hear it also failed. But y'all
take it from there, honey. January eighth, it was a heck of
a day for sure. So on January eighth, the Virginia State Police and
the FBI held a joint press conference, and during that presser, they announced
that Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior, who was sixty three years old of Lancaster,
Virginia, had been connected to the Robin Edwards and David Knobline murders via DNA,
and this was huge. We also received new information about a victim that
we were totally unfamiliar with, a woman by the name of Teresa Howell.
At the same time, we learned that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had died in
his home in twenty seventeen, so there was no arrest made, but for
us, it was a very big deal because this is the first significant case
break over the thirty seven years that Bill and his family and the other families
have been involved in this case. So this was massive, and it's also
the first time that a single homicide victim was connected to the couples in the
Colonial Parkway murders. And so suddenly we're in a whole new world of information
that we're getting. Not only do we have a suspect and he's been linked
to be a DNA, but maybe this isn't as cut and dried in terms
of couples killings as we had originally thought. But Bill, you had a
very different experience than I did on January eighth, because you weren't watching the
presser. Would you like to tell the good folks out there what you were
doing? Yeah, this is interesting. Let's step back for one second.
About a year ago, we got a call with a tip, and we've
developed a lot of contacts in law enforce and a lot of a lot of
different places, and we've got to call that the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences
had applied for and received a SAKI grant. If you're not familiar sexual Assault
Kit Initiative grant, this is federal money that goes to state and local law
enforcement to test untested rape kits and other evidence. It's an incredible program.
I urge everyone if to ask their law enforcement agencies, have you applied for
a SAKI grant if there's any talk And there was a lot of talk in
our case about we don't have the funding to conduct this forensic test or that
forensic test. So we got a call that the Virginia authorities had requested for
and received a SAKI grant, and that SAKI grant led directly to this big
step that Kristen's talking about. In the Colonial Parkway murders, they test the
rape kit from fourteen year old Robin Edwards and that led directly to them identifying
Wilmer. And we notice how we keep saying Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. One
thing we feel really bad about is there is an Alan Wade Wilmer junior,
his son who's a grown man now. So we try to be very specific.
We were talking about senior here, but that testing of that evidence,
which was very badly degraded. It was over thirty six years old. It
been tested numerous times over the years, and as Matt can tell you,
certain types of DNA testing consume the evidence, and it was also evidence that
was exposed to seawater, so it's a complicated and difficult sample. The first
lab that did the testing was unsuccessful, but the good news is they didn't
use any of the DNA to make this determination. So a second lab was
then asked to do testing. I think I know who it is, but
I don't want to credit the wrong lab, so we'll leave their name out
of it. But it's a highly respected lab who's done other work for us
in the Colonial Parkway murders, and they were able to get a profile that
then led directly, we believe, to the identification of the killer of Teresa
Spa Howell, who was the name that Kristin was talking about. The person
we were not familiar with because right before they named her, y'all had never
even heard her name. Nope, No. Now, our contacts in the
media had told us several months prior to the press conference that there have been
a development in our case, and they actually had identified for us the suspect,
his brother who's also sometimes mentioned in connection with this case, and Teresa
Howell's name, which was brand new to us. So we knew about this
in October twenty twenty three, and then the press conference came on January eighth.
Yes, we didn't get into why I was tied up. I think
we should. I think it's I think it's a fascinating look into what all
has been going on in this case with regard to a certain federal law enforcement
agency that we're not going to name. Sure we are. I will you
go ahead and throw them under the bus. Then he's cool, Okay,
happy to and hello to our friends from the Federal Bureau Investigation. Listen to
the podcast. By the way, we know this for a fact because they've
even contacted us and asked us to make corrections, which we're always happy to
do. And now the Virginia State Police also listen, so it's fascinating.
So we appreciate the fact that they listen. Then they're gonna watch this thing
too. If you are killed, if you were killed inside a national park,
it's an FBI case since day one. Now, remember my family and
I've been dealing with the FBI for thirty seven years. Sometimes there are frustrating
moments. This was one of them. Our agent, who I've been working
with for the last decade, contacted me to set at seven thirty in the
morning to set up a call that afternoon when it was a Monday. If
I'm not it was Monday for one thirty pm. Having worked with this agent
for a decade and I really liked this agent, she doesn't usually contacted me
six hours in advance to say, Hey, Bill, can we talk at
one thirty pm? Today? She usually calls me or texts me and asks
me to call her, and probably figured this out. This is a case
is very important to me. So usually I'm on the phone with her within
five minutes if I can get away, and my long suffering life partner,
Pamela, who it was absolutely wonderful. I can't tell you how many times
I've walked out of dinners, lunches, meetings, you name it to take
a call from our FBI agent. But so when she called and said she
wanted to talk at one thirty, I thought this is odd. And then
over the course of that morning, Kristen reached out to me and she said
that press conference we've been waiting for, it's happening, and it's happening today,
and I said, oh, okay. Short A while later, Kristin
comes back and says, looks like it's going to be at one thirty pm.
So I texted our agent back and I said, is it your intention
that we're going to watch this press conference together? And she said no,
and I said, that's odd. So at one thirty pm, when the
rest of the world was watching the press conference, I was on the phone
with our FBI agent. Now those of you that know me or listen to
Mind over Murder know that I tend to be pretty direct. This was done
deliberately so that I couldn't watch the press conference in real time. As you
can imagine, while I'm talking to our agent, I got the iPhone set
up on the desk. There the top third of the or so of the
screen is where the texts are coming in. So I'm talking to our agent,
whom I really like, and I'm learning a lot. We talk for
two hours and fifteen minutes, which is long, but by the top of
my screen is just blowing up. Bill, are you following this press conference?
Why aren't you commenting on social media or whatever? And the texts start
coming in faster and faster. Basically they're saying, built where the hell are
you? Your sister's case is being discussed at a national level, and you're
saying nothing. You've gone radio silent, and then of course things explode.
After I get off the phone with the FBI two hours and fifteen minutes later,
I literally wasn't able to watch the press conference until ten o'clock that night,
when things finally began to calm down. And then I knew why the
FBI didn't want me to watch the press conference, because I wasn't going to
be happy. I was thrilled for the two families, and this new family
that we hadn't heard about, the Howells. We were thrilled about this news,
but I quickly realized there's a lot of very important information that's not being
said publicly about this significant development, the Colonial Parkway murders. First of all,
this guy, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, was also a suspect in the
disappear so Keith call and Cassandra Haley. Remember we went through those cases quickly.
They've linked him via DNA to incident number three, but he actually was
the leading suspect in incident number two, the disappearance of Keith and Sandy.
And even at the press conference, journalists asked, can you say when this
man first moved on to your radar, and this is important. They refused
to answer the question YEP twice, two different journalists who know this case said
can you say, and they said the answer was no. And so when
your law enforcement agencies aren't being straight, you know you have a problem.
Because as soon as I had a chance to watch the press conference at ten
o'clock that night, I realized, this guy is the guy I heard about
in nineteen eighty eight. This guy was under arrested by the FBI in eighty
eight and they let him go, and that's why they didn't want to talk
about this at the presser. Now, Bill, I have a question.
First of all, I didn't know the FBI was listening, So I'm Nancy
Grace. I would have known that voice anywhere else. I want a few
more questions, Jackie cut Kristen's Mike, Okay, you're in trouble now,
But why do you think that the local and state and federal law enforcement turned
a blind eye to this guy? Like, what is your gut feeling about
that? I want to be fair if we're talking about back in eighty eight,
this is real important for everybody to understand. This is before DNA.
Now, remember Wilmer's identified all these years later via DNA, so we have
tools now that we didn't back then, and they brought him in. He
was at the absolute top of the list. They referred to him as suspect
number one, but he passed a polygraph once. They gave him a second
one and the results were inconclusive. We've heard unconfirmed rumors that there may be
a second man who was also given a polygraph. The agents, the case
agents, whom my late father used to talk to frequently. These were names
we all knew around the dining room table, and as you can probably imagine,
of the four kids in the family, I was the one that took
the greatest amount of interest in Kathy's case. So I remember having a lot
of private conversations with my dad. But we knew that there was a waterman
who was seriously looked at. We were told it was two terman actually in
nineteen eighty eight, so I want to be fair. At the same time,
the case agents were rock solid certain they had identified the right guy,
but I think this is one of those cases where they couldn't prove it.
They even told the families during a private family meeting, we are ninety nine
percent sure this is the guy. We are ninety eight percent sure this is
the guy. And I want to make sure that we don't move too fast
past the point that I think is most important and that we don't want to
get lost, which is the fact that after this guy was let go in
nineteen eighty eight, he murdered Teresa Howell. Teresa Howell is dead because the
FBI polygraphed him and cleared him and let him go. TERSA how would not
be dead otherwise. And this is where we get in to the discomfort of
the FBI. And then there's all this weirdness that's going on in the background
of this case now, where they've told dozens of people don't talk to Bill
Thomas, and of course most of those people their first thought is who the
heck is Bill Thomas. And then when they find out who I am and
who we are, they end up they listen to Mine over Murder and they
learn more about the case, and then these people call me, and so
all these people are coming out of the woodwork and guess in a good way
with more information, and of course we're trying desperately to steer those people back
towards law enforcement. But this is where I think law enforcement makes a tremendous
mistake by playing all these stupid reindeer games like don't talk to Bill Thomas.
Look, I get it, I have a big mouth, and I know
I'm a bit of a handful, but I'm trying to figure out who killed
my sister. But telling people don't talk to Bill Thomas, all it makes
them to do is think I got to track this guy down. And I
told the FBI the occasional lapses into profanity. My mom would not be very
proud of me. I told them as recently as a few weeks ago.
You guys are fing this case up beyond all measure. And by the way,
telling everybody in this case don't talk to Bill Thomas is completely not working.
I have actually started now. You know how we all get bothered by
spam calls. It's like a lot of people I stopped answering my phone if
it's a number I don't recognize. New policy. If you're from Virginia and
you call, I'm going to talk to you. And a lot of these
folks are saying very tentatively at first, I am someones you don't know me
have information and in most examples, I'm like, I'm very happy to hear
from you and actually do know who you are. You're listening to mind over
Murder. Will be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back
here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted
to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going on right now.
This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder
and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if
you could support us in any way that you can. Any donation from five
dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful.
The link is in the show notes and in our social media pages.
As always, thanks for your support. Now back to Mind over Murder.
But listen, we're five months in now. Yeah, what questions do you
still have about Wilmer? If you want to fire away, we have so
much that we want to know about Wilmer, and I want to make sure
that we focus not only on victimology to but also the issues that you were
talking about, which is how was he allowed after a year, given that
law enforcement knew he was harassing couples on the Colonial Parkway. How was this
guy allowed to continue going on doing what he was doing? But is so
many things that we want to know. How did he actually choose his victims
in the first place? Is this random? Or is he stalking them?
How did he approach his victims? One of the things that you'll notice if
you come by our booth is we are handing out postcards with all of this
information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Sr. And it includes some photos of his
very distinctive truck with a Vanity license plate to the state of Virginia. We're
big on those and his vote that Jenny Wade. We would really like to
know how did he approach his victims? Was he approaching on foot? Was
he approaching in the truck? Was he approaching in his boat? We want
to know what locations was Wilmer frequenting when he was visiting our area because he
did not live in Tidewater. He lived in Lancaster County and he was coming
down here to do work as a waterman. So what areas was he frequenting?
Was he frequently off the Colonial Parkway, Was he up in Middlesex,
was he at Hampton? Where was he We're very curious about the behavior that
he exhibited to his family and friends. Did anybody have an inkling that this
was going on? And then, of course we really do want to know
exactly what you've been curious about, which is why was he allowed to go
free even after passing this polygraph? If he was a prime suspect in Keith
call In Sandy Haley's disappearances, that is just inexplicable to both of us.
There's a lot to unpack there. And then there is the potential that he
might be involved in other low cold cases. And despite the fact that the
two of us say we are not investigators, we do a certain amount of
digging in our copious amounts. And there are a number of local cold cases
that I think Wilmer might be potentially connected to, and those are things that
we are exploring. I had forty years, he's had forty years that he
could be doing this for. And we have a lot of cold cases in
Virginia. And like when we talked, he had more than one vehicle,
more than one way to stalk people. He had a truck, he had
a business that would allow him to go here and there. He also had
a boat, so he could literally see down the Colonial Parkway, either from
the roadway or the waterway. So it's an extraordinary to me vantage point when
you're stalking people, no question about it. And there are dozens of reports
of someone matching Wilmer's description driving this very distinctive truck that Kristen was talking about,
yep, approaching them like a po police officer would, demanding driver's licenses,
but interestingly not wearing a cop uniform, but something more like what a
mechanic or a waterman would wear. But he'd come up and blitz attack them,
banging on the window, demanding driver's licenses, interestingly never asking for registrations,
which a real cop would ask for. And what I can't figure out
is the FBIS told me this over the years, they had dozens and dozens
of reports. Why was the FBI and the National Park Service never able to
put together the fact that this is all the same guy. These couples coming
forward and saying we're parked, we're making out, and all of a sudden
there's this short, stocky, very beefy guy, only five to five pounding
on the window, demanding driver's licenses, telling us we're in the wrong place,
or that we're not supposed to be there, like a cop would or
a National Park Service ranger would it. Why didn't they ever revisit him after
they gave him the polygraph back in eighty eight? He was a really righteous
suspect. This guy checked so many boxes in the Colonial Parkway murders. It's
scary. I need a polygraph. That could be a whole another session.
But the reality is, depending on what you're asked, in the order you're
asked it, it could change whether or not you could pass a polygraph.
So again, if he's just asked, were you here at this time?
And if he wasn't, he could pass that question. So what would y'all
like to see from law enforcement? Now? What would you like to see
them do it? From my point of view, the lack of transparency is
just appalling. They would have been so much better off. And I did
marketing and communications for thirty years. I'm not a law enforcement person and we're
not investigators, as Kristen said, but they would have been better off back
on January eighth, if they had said, we questioned this guy in nineteen
eighty eight, and we didn't have DNA back then, and he passed a
polygraph exam. I think they would have been better off if they just sucked
it up and took their lumps. We understand that a case like this has
got problems and complications that have occurred. It shouldn't be required that Kristin Dilly
and Bill Thomas and local and extremely well informed people from the media and the
press, that we're suddenly saying, you're skipping over some really important details here,
folks, yep, and that actually, and this saddens me to say
this, because, believe it or not, I see myself as a supporter
of law enforcement. I want to help, we want to help, yes,
but when they failed to deal with things in a straightforward manner, good,
bad, and indifferent, they're building distrust. One of the things we
just did two live podcast events in Virginia, both of which sold out immediately
and were very successful. We got a lot of support, which we very
much appreciated. But one of the things people said at these live podcast events
we presented on the case, then we took an hour of questions. At
the end of each session. People said to us Kristen and Bill, you're
the only people that are answering questions honestly about the Colonial Parkway murders. I
don't know how the heck two podcasters and one of whom was the brother of
one of the victims. I don't know how it falls to us, but
people are saying, no one from law enforcement will answer these questions honestly.
Again, that give you another session. Thanks Nancy, You're welcome, Nancy
Grace, come see meet podcast everybody. Because I think social media is a
powerful thing. And I will just say this and not to change anything that
you just said, but I think there is power in hearing from Kathy's brother
and in a way that law enforcement couldn't do it. I can talk about
my sisters like nobody else, and I think that, to me is what
draws people to you. And then when we hear from your friend and your
partner in every sense of the word in this investigation, and y'all keep saying
you're not investigators to make a point, but I am, and I will
tell you, yes, you are. You are. So when you talk
about social media and that powerful presence, there are pages that the families have
put up and y'all have championed, so let them know how to find those
pages too. Yeah, we have a lot of social media pages regards the
case. We have Colonial Parkway Murders, which is all of the information that
you could possibly want. We have our mind over Murder podcast page. But
we also have family members of the victims who started social media pages before we
ever hit the scene, and Keith Call and Cassandra Haley's families started a social
media page called whatever Happened to Richard, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. And
we also have a second page run by the families called Colonial Parkway Murder.
I'm sorry Colonial Parkway Victim's gone, but not forgotten. We also run our
own websites, Colonial Parkway Murders dot com and mindover Murder podcast dot com.
We are very active in those spaces and we are attempting to do everything that
we can to get out the information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior. And
we encourage anyone who has any information at all of any variety to please come
forward to us, either anonymously or with an I AM attached to it,
and tell us what you think you may know. There is no detail that
is too small. In this case, we got tips, major tips in
the Colonial Park murders a year little less than a year ago at the last
crime con. Now, there was a bit of a kerfuffle with the FBI
because I didn't have all the particulars. It took me a little time to
track the husband and wife team who were here at crime Con in Orlando,
and things got a little heated, and the FBI threatened to bring me up
on federal obstruction of justice charges. My response, and my late mom again
would not be proud of me, was if you go right ahead, because
I said, as I said to the FBI, on what planet am I
going to be withholding information in my sister's unsolved murder case? That doesn't make
any sense. Yeah, you've shared more than he has. Yeah. Now,
I was ultimately able to track these wonderful people down and get their information
to the FBI, and we smooth things out a little bit. So I
think I'm not on the Christmas card list anymore, but I'm not being actively
threatened with being brought up on charges. I think that's a good segue.
I think we should honor the victims and talk about them a little bit.
Yeah, I think it's really important to remember the fact that thirty seven years
have passed five for these cases, and that is for Kathy and Becky in
particular. And what we put up on the screen in front of you is
the ages that these victims would be now had they lift And I want to
very quickly name the victims in the ages that they would currently be. Robin
Edwards, who was fourteen when she died, would be fifty one today.
Anna Maria Phelps would be fifty three, Sandra Haley would be fifty four,
Marian Powell, whose case may be connected as well, would be fifty four
years old. Keith Call would be fifty six, Daniel Lower would be fifty
six, David Nobling would be fifty seven, Becky Dawski would be fifty nine.
Brian Pattenger, whose case may also be connected, would be sixty one,
Terry Hall would be sixty four, and Kathy Thomas would be sixty five
years old. It's amazing, Yeah, thank you for that. And you're
gonna have an opportunity in a little bit. We're gonna open up the house
lights and you're gonna be able to ask Kristen and Bill questions yourself and they
will answer anything. You see how obviously how open and honest they are.
They would love to talk to you and have questions. So while you're thinking
about those and come into the two microphones, I will tell you something both
about the two of them. So Kristin Dilley is one of those people.
If she sees that maybe you've had a rough case or a rough day or
something may be going on, she checks in with you immediately. And that's
the kind of thing to me that is just extraordinary about her. Bill Thomas
is no different. Walk Na decided, David and I decided we were gonna
take the twins on a trip, and we got into New York and our
car broke down. Bill lives in Connecticut, calls me immediately and says,
hey, you need me to come get you. You can stay at the
house. This is who they are, So I just want you to know
that it's not something they do part time. They are friend and just have
your back at all times. So we have somebody at a microphone, so
if we want to open up the house lights so y'all can see them.
Yeah, Hi, my name is Rachel, my mom and my brother and
I are here and we all live in Richmond, so we're familiar with the
case and particularly familiar with you guys. What I want to ask is about
the inability of law enforcement to put Allen Wade Wilmercy and Ann to COOTIS and
what sorts of alternatives this there? Have they talked to his son or any
of his children about providing DNA there? Yeah, this is a thank you.
It's a fantastic question, and we appreciate it. And I think this
is going to be a much larger issue than just the Colonial Parkway murders because
Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was never charged with a crime and certainly not a felony
during the time that he was alive. According to the FBI and the Virginia
State Police, they cannot put his DNA into the CODIS system. And we
just think this is flat out wrong. Alan Wade Wilmer Senior has been dead
since twenty seventeen. What civil rights are we possibly protecting? Guy's been dead
for six years on seven now. We have a lot of friends that have
been incredibly helpful to the case and helping moving it forward. Beyond just our
good friend Nancy here and so one of our law enforcement partners who's worked this
case and is now retired in a bit more free to speak. Frankly,
he had said, Bill, I think the FBI is your biggest problem in
terms of roadblocks, but he said the Virginia State Police are probably a close
second, and he said, you can't lose sight of this fact that they
don't want to put Wilmer's DNA into the CODA system, and they're using this
as an excuse because if they put Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior's DNA into the
CODA system, it will light up like an f and Christmas other unsolved murders
and wait for it. There may be even some cases in Virginia that other
people have gone to jail for that are actually committed by Wilmer. We believe
this guy may be involved and his brothers as well, in cases extending back
forty years. This guy has literally been getting away with murder, perhaps for
as long as four decades. So there's a big incentive for law enforcement to
say, oh, oh, we can't put the indo cotis. I actually
think we need to be adjusting the rules for CODIS. If this SOB is
dead, let's just put it in there and let the chips fall where they
may. But you'll notice that there's a discomfort on the part of law enforcement
to treating this case in a transparent way. That's at least the third time
I've used that word today, and so that's a real challenge for us.
And we actually don't have an acceptable answer right now. I wish we did.
Ultimately, we think we're going to have to pursue maybe even legislation.
And here's another crazy thing. We have fifty different sets of rules. Every
state in the Union has different rules for how they handled DNA and CODIS.
We just talked about that on a Monday's episode of Mind Over Murder Lindsay Wade,
who is a fantastic, very accomplished investigator whose book is nominated as one
of the best books of the year. Her book in My DNA, and
she explained to us, not that we completely understood at all, and not
that some of the answers were not unacceptable, but she was explaining how we
ended up with this bizarre system where instead of having one set of rules,
you know, like a real country, as opposed to fifty different sets of
rules. And I think we the big we need to do better. It's
our intention when we salve the Colonial Parkway murders. Note the optimism. I
actually want to pivot to this larger issue of there are two hundred and fifty
thousand cold case homicides in the United States that ought to be a national scandal
at this point. Think about it. A quarter of a million, and
that numbers probably low cold case homicides in the United States. That's insane and
as Lindsay was explaining to us on Monday's episode, fifty different sets of rules.
This makes no sense whatsoever. Right, Yes, ma'am, yess.
Just to follow up, my name is Anne. Is there a way to
legislatively in Virginia do something about the Codis rule. This is something we're starting
to explore, and this is something that our listeners supporters are very interested in
taking a look at you. I think you'd have a lot of support from
this audience and from the whole of crime con Yeah, right, all,
just like change the law. Yes, yeah, my name is Jim.
I have two quick questions. One is, has anybody talked to his family
about putting their DNA in like a twenty three and me kind of database so
we could do some genetic testing ahead. We have been in touch with his
family, and they have been They're appalled by what they have learned about their
family member, and they do want to help in every way that they possibly
can, and so we are working actively to talk with the family, and
because they are willing to help, we hope that someplace they're willing to go.
Bill, I know you spent more time talking to his family members than
I have. Is that something that they've indicated they're willing to do. They
seemed willing to do anything to help, which is I never I thought.
I talked to Christen about this. I said, I'm now talking to the
potential serial killers family who this person may have killed our sister. It's just
like, Wow, I didn't expect it to go into that twist the attorney
place, but they seem very willing to help in any way, and they've
actually been lovely. And the truth is we see them as victims too,
and they're not responsible for something that their ex husband father in law did,
but boy talk about a situation that they hadn't anticipated. But they seem willing
to do anything to help law enforcement get to the bottom of the case.
And it's something I've always wondered about You've been working on your sister's case for
forty years. It's solved, So now what do you do? Is there
a letdown? Is there? Sorry, I can tell you what he's gonna
do. Yeah, we're not there yet, but he's just getting started.
Yeah. I actually would like to work on this these broader issues because it's
funny. We've interviewed a lot of people from other cases. We don't just
talk about the Colonial Parkway murders, and boy, it's pretty easy I find
to put myself in the shoes of somebody who's gone through something somewhat similar,
because it's an experience that we all share. What John Walsh says, the
you're invited to join the club that no one wants to be invited to join.
So I think our intent would be to broaden out to these other issues.
Absolutely. Yep. The remarkable thing is Kathy will be responsible through you
of helping thousands and thousands of families. Yeah, now, to me is
a remarkable thing, and what a legacy for both of you. Yeah,
because she wanted to serve her country and she is. Yeah, yes,
that's true. Thank you. Hi, my name is Crystal. Thank you
for doing this. And I listen to your podcast. I really like it.
My question relates to your the Colonial Parkway murder, but also just Virginia
more broadly. I was in grad school in Virginia in the nineteen nineties,
so I recall it's a dangerous place. I didn't know at the time,
but it's a dangerous place. I still am a Virginia resident, and just
being aware of whether it's these cases and just listening to you all talk about
the challenges that you've faced in trying to just get more information and help law
enforcement, but then also the Route twenty nine, Stoker, the Shannando.
I'm leaving a few others off, but the more I learn, I just
I'm learning that it seems like there's a lot of cold cases, potential frankly
serial killers that have been roaming around Virginia for several decades. So my question
is there is anybody looking into this or more broadly, like is there in
other states you'll have like the state police that may have a task for it,
the two people that are trying to put together all the code cases or
something, and I'm not hearing anything like that in Virginia. Just seems like
it's just this black hole of cases that are clearly at least about three or
four major serial killer type cases, and they've just gone into a black hole.
So I'm just just knowing that you guys are aware of and involved in
a lot of what's going on in Virginia. I'm just curious if you have
anything to say or to share with those of us who are in Virginia in
response to that. It is weird, isn't it. How are so many
serial killers in Virginia and a lot of them were operating at the same time.
If you look at someone like Randy Taylor, who was operating at the
same time as Jesse Matthew, for example, in the same area around Charlottesville,
how inexplicable is it that you have two serial killers in the exact same
area, right around the exact same time. It is a little weird.
We do have some podcasting colleagues who are also interested in looking into the very
things that you've brought up, and so we do work with them and explore
these kind of concepts of why are there so many serial killers in this area
of Virginia. Why hasn't more been done to try to figure out why?
Precisely that might be but yeah, that is definitely something that we're interested in,
and we have been watching with satisfaction the creation of the Virginia Cold Case
Database and are very interested in seeing how that database grows and develops over the
next couple of years. That if you want a good afternoon's worth of reading
and go into the Virginia Cold Case Database for a little bit. It's interesting,
but it's also kind of hair raising. Just like you said, is
anyone working those cases. We think there's more of an effort being made now,
and of course it's exciting when you start to see some solves and family
members are getting answer. So our sense of it is that more resources are
being put into these cases, certainly more than in recent years. Yes,
Hi, my name's Christina. First, I want to say I really admire
all the dedication and love and the way you've honored your sister. We should
all be so lucky to have a brother like you. I mean, agreed,
thank you. I was just curious if this way, senior, if
you guys have gotten any facts about his life, did he have like domestic
violence, animal cruelty? The neighbors complaining what we're getting so far and we're
not experts on all things Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. But there almost seem like
two. He's living two lives. His family and friends and people that knew
him in Lancaster County, which is a couple hours north of Williamsburg, they
don't for the most part, they don't have any experiences with him that are
consistent with the idea of him being a serial killer. Now they do understand
that he's definitely linked via DNA to the murder of at least three people,
and I think there are more. But it almost sounds like after he was
married for six years, they were divorced, and after his divorce, as
he would make his way down towards what Kristin calls the Tidewater area of Virginia
where he's working with the boat fishing, crabbing, oystering, he seems to
then move into this really extended dark period. Now his family is potentially linked
with other murders in Lancaster County, also unsolved, and which extend back,
and that's where we're getting the forty years from. But Wilmer's kind of acting
out, if you will, or being an active serial killer, seems to
be concentrated mostly when he's living down in the Hampton, Virginia area, working
on his boat. It's a real doctor Jackyl mister Hyde sort of thing.
If you'll pardon the English teacher reference for a couple of minutes. Yes,
my name's Emily. I was actually really curious how you decided to start the
podcast. Was there something about your work on the cases that made you think,
hey, we can reach a wider audience with the podcast, or was
there another reason why you decided to start the podcast. Oh. I think
it's because I had guested on many of the podcasts here on now we're calling
it Creator's Row Podcast Row, and a number of those podcasters said, Bill,
you're really good at this. You should do a podcast of your own.
And Kristin heard them sometimes even say it on the air, and she
said, yeah, you should do a podcast. I said, let's do
a podcast together, and we thought it would be a logical outgrowth of the
work that we were doing together to move the Colonial Parkway murders forward and one
of the things that we've tried to do. And for those of you that
are listened to the podcast, we've met all these amazing people along the way.
You meet somebody like Cheryl mccoum, and she's got this fascinating background as
a real life CSI. So not only is she helping us and providing us
with great advice and educating us quite frankly. We then turn around and we
said, hey, would you come on our new podcast and she says yes.
And so all these amazing people that we've met over the last fifteen years
or so, we've asked them to come on our show and talk. We
talk with authors and investigators and forensics experts, and a lot of what we're
doing is we're talking with people that we would like to get to know better
and learn from and taking the audience along for the ride. And I think
people have really enjoyed that as a result, and we thank you all very
much for coming along on the ride with us. We really appreciate you.
Thank you for coming to speaking our booth and to pick up some of this
information about Ellen wid Wilmer Senior. We are on Creator's Row boot sixty one,
right next to Mac. I was just gonna say, I know,
there's two people still at the microphone, but we literally have fifteen seconds left.
We have to move so the other people can set up, but they
are on creator's row. Please come by and talk to them. They need
to talk to you, ma'am. So I'm going to make sure y'all connect.
Okay, absolutely, Thank y'all so much. Thank you man. That
would cool. We hope you enjoyed the session. As a reminder, if
you're heading out for another session or taking a quick break, please collect all
your personal belongings before exiting for security purposes. No bad or personal items may
be left unattended at any time. Thank you for your cooperation. Mind Over
Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers
are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership
with crawl Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or
Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,
and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five
six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. About