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Third lap the podcast with Alejandro Gaviría
and Ricardo Silva Romero, a podcast of

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the arroba locutorio. The speaker should
assume that you have all the violence inside

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and all the evil you see outside, you can have it inside and not

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feel above others. That seems to
me to be fundamental and makes me think

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that perhaps the hell of these times
is the absence of compassion. That is,

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when one sees that there is no
compassion for one or that one does

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not feel compassion for others, there
is hell. It is to lack the

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capacity to assume the human. This
seems interesting because it takes us like some

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kind of mirror. It' s
hell. Metaphorically, it is nothing other

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than recognizing our ability to do evil. But then winter becomes the other thing,

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to tell me to understand human nature
in its complexity and to attribute that

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role of implacable judge. Hi,
Ricardo Hi, Alejandro. I want us

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to talk a little bit before we
start with the subject of cooking day,

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third round of how the issues are
made. And we have some kind of

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implicit agreement, and it' s
that we get ready first. Yeah,

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we didn' t make it or
we went on a date. There'

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s our friend Alexpinilla, and we' re starting to do some sort of

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brainstorming and we can have a theme
because we don' t want to Google,

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we don' t want to get
ready, and we don' t

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want this to turn into a uribe
of commacherros without talking bad. We think

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it' s a conversation. It' s a spontaneous conversation. If we

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don' t come here and say
something we' ve thought about before and

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the conversation is taking on a cafeteria
structure. Let' s say more than

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anything else, so it' s
the conversation that almost defines it by lack

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of structure and free actions. What
one is remembering is that current of consciousness

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that is taking us from one side
to the other. Exactly. We'

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re always surprised by the themes,
except when we' ve had guests.

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We have no more to prove,
that is, of ideas that we are

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going to hypothesis, that we are
going to prove in any way rather we

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are at the mercy of the memory
and the humor of the day. We

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' ve already had more than seventy
chapters. We' ve talked about all

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the issues. There are probably ideas
that come back yes, but that shows

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that conversation, dialogue, is infinite. Many of us can speak here We

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can stay eternally with Ricardo too,
who always accompanies us by talking about conversations.

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We haven' t turned back.
I think there are rumors of other

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podcasts where people resort to ppactive substances, to a sip. No. No,

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this has been sober. He'
s been sober, but we look

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drunk. It' s really amazing. And also, I want to clarify

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since I say I talk about drunkards, that when I spoke Ricardo, he

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is not talking about myself in third
person of Ricardo Daza, who is ours,

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our engineer and always is our other
companion of these talks. I think

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Ricardo, who up to here has
the accurate and accurate accounting of how many

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episodes there are seven, seven is
not the number of unimportant fortunes. Yeah,

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no, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. We are truly proud

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that having a good time seventy-
seven times is a great achievement in life.

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And today, in that previous conversation
to get to the point, we

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said we wanted to talk about hell. If we come to that conclusion,

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I remember a little phrase that I
told Jorge Luis Borges that said half in

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humorous tone, at the end of
his life, saying of the final judgment,

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how it was of all this,
follow a judgment already tired of life

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and he said, and he then
said what it seemed to him that heaven

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and hell were disproportionate, hell as
that eternal punishment for the bad ones,

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or heaven the eternal prize, which
were disproportionate, that men said. We

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don' t deserve that much.
Of course, there is a proportion in

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this metaphysics, in those promises of
the desert. Yes I the one who

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came to religion, who invented these
metaphors a little rough, very strong,

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and I taught in a school thirty
years ago and was almost the age of

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the students and you tell them and
I are always problems. And it seemed

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to me that it might be interesting
because they were classes of 14- year

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- olds who didn' t want
classes of anything, that it was interesting

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to structure it with hell, that
it was going to be attractive. And

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then I started reading things from hell
among everyone, a story of hell by

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a guy named George Minois French.
And what seemed most interesting to me was

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the moment that I found interesting that
book, it was the moment when hell

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becomes such a violent, violent and
eternal punishment, because there is a stage

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of hell, which is the stage
before the Catholic Empire. If one wants

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to see it, on that side, yes, the Catholic hegemony, the

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Catholic culture, which is the moment
of antiquity, in which hell is the

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place to which the dead are going
to give, which is almost a dusty

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place. Sometimes they imagine it as
the Earth, as the center of the

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earth, as a place full of
worms, of things, for breaking down,

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but it does not have that burden
of punishment, of sin and punishment

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of the body, of the body, even the body beyond life. That

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seemed particularly interesting to me. It' s a long book for the subject.

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There are seven hundred pages and one
of going culture by culture, seeing

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what their hell is like, because
it starts to be hard to read.

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But that' s very interesting,
that turn towards punishment and then the contemporary

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turn of the 20th century, almost
that' s when hell starts to be

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personal, when it' s no
longer the same hell for everyone, but

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everyone lives their own hell that also
has to do with lacking things. Above

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all, it is hell like human
consciousness. One locked in that hell of

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his own. I find it interesting
Richard what you say about hell like that

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place where the dead go. I
haven' t had much contact with the

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word" hell" in general,
now that you' ve spoken. Of

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that, a hell that I have
read about is something related and it is

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the hell that is becoming life that
does not end eternal life. There'

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s a little bit of Gulliver'
s travels, which I like to quote

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is over there. Luke Nack Island. There are some guys who are born

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with a sphere, a red circle
in the middle of the forehead, who

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live blue and gray and live eternally
and you see it like it, that

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is, hell, that your portraits, is a decomposition, a loss of

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all appetites and in a kind of
metamorphossa, it is inverse, a return

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to making some chrysalids and you see
that they are entering some hell. But

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it is that, it is that
continuity of life, beyond what one considers

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reasonable, expectable. There are many
literary hells in such a way that one

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thinks, as we have spoken,
of dystopian novels or dystopian fictions, which

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are a very useful metaphor for talking
about life on earth. Hells as well

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macondo, to say one very close. That is clearly a hell or comala,

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the hell of Rulfo, of Pedro
Páramo and they all come from the

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hell of Dante, of the Divine
Comedy, which is such a literary hell

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that, as a travel guide,
has Virgilio leading forward by the nine circles

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that, among others, perhaps the
funniest thing about that hell is or the

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most shocking thing that hell is that
the worst of those nine circles, that

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is where people are really burning that
they are suffering the most is roasting,

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let' s say, it is
the circle that deserve those who have betrayed

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friendship. To me, that always
seems impressive to me that it is worse

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in Dante' s nine circles,
the betrayal of friendship is worse than,

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for example, violence, physical violence, also borges that the history of literature

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is simply the story of a few
recurring metaphors, recurring to the clear common

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place, and that idea ahead and
those hells and concentric circles and that classification

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that makes hand in hand almost the
paradigm of man of letters. Yes,

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it is a metaphor. But I
also find interesting that idea of traditiating friendship,

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because, in essence, it is
a deviation from the human heart that

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has no forgiveness, because the first
morality is born of reciprocity, yes,

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it makes of building with those we
call friends, a kind of implicit contract

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that is not written anywhere. It' s the one where we respect each

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other and I help you and you
help me tomorrow and so on. Yeah,

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it' s like ripping off a
fortune. Not luck is the seed

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of our ethics. Yeah, totally
the ethics center. The center is there

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and that' s where almost everyone
comes out in one a. I liked

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reading biographies of Baruke Espinosa. It
seems to me an interesting character who is

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well expelled from his community as well
because perhaps he did not believe in hell

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and said that only a commandment matters
to love his neighbor. Of course it

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' s a bit the same concept. In Dante' s art hell is

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the first circle called limbo. The
second circle is that of lust, the

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third gluttony, the fourth of greed, and the fifth of anger. The

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sixth of heresy. The seventh of
the violence, the eighth of the fraud

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and the ninth of it is betrayal
and the worst of the betrayals is the

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tradition of friendship. Lust what lust
is at first. That burns one,

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but it' s like a microwave, but it' s not that strong.

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And thinking of Jorges, the aleve
has a lot of going down into

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hell. In fact, the character
that leads to the narrator that one supposes

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is a sort of borges to see
the point where all the two are.

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To see the alef is a guy
named Carlos Argentine Daneri, who is commander

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Allilleri. There' s allusion to
Avila. That journey also his descent into

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hell, the alef, which is
the grace in literature of the theme of

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hell, the descent to hells that
you are so pinocho when it descends into

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the ocean and brings the dad from
the Disney version, from the whale and

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in the version of the book from
the shark. Of course it' s

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more of the book It' s
a scary thing. The Disney movie is

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also terrifying, but it' s
getting a little better and it' s

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the exercise like in the eneida or
going down to hell and bringing in the

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neida. It is the golden branch, but the descent of hell is supposed

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to be really the way of redemption
and understanding of the human. It comes

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back with news about the lives of
men that is similar to what Campbell describes

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as the hero' s journey.
Not exactly, it' s going to

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a place, transforming to reach your
community, transforming it. This idea of

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the journey to hell makes me connect
it with another recurring story or metaphor that

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I have always liked that there is
literature is full of this and it is

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the needle and fall, and it
is good, hell is also on this

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earth. Yes, and that story, which is the personal story of many

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people and especially the people who have
lived the most public lives climb up and

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juven and juven But all that just
doesn' t make the descent, the

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inevitable descent to what becomes a personal
hell. She' s a doctor.

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I' ve always liked it,
I' ve always liked ohe and fall

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seemed to me. Yes, that
there is something interesting about that tragic,

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also that has been a recurring theme
in our podcast Ricardo. Yeah, yeah.

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And how to deal with the boom
and the fall, how to be

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wise in those two moments that is
not easy in either one of us.

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There, thinking of the 20th century, because that phrase of artre' s

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play that, if I' m
not bad, premiered when the Second War

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is ending, that is, it
comes loaded with all that experience. The

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famous phrase of hell are the others
that at first might sound like the fault

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of the others, but really,
when you review the play, what the

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character who is the protagonist is saying
is that hell is the others. When

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one is unable to relate to others, that is, the fault is not

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of others, but of one.
The others are a constant proof that one

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is incapable of living. It'
s a little in that sense and it

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' s about boom and fall.
Somehow, that play is about how you

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deal with the lockdown, for example, when these are characters who are locked

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up and I do think it'
s the hell you live in these times.

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The falls we all have seem to
me in that of the others.

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Richard is another form of hell,
hell on this earth that are the most

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common. The others are simply human
imagination. It' s ostracism. It

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is not when one is banished and
a community is and is pointed out by

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others and is ethically pointed out what
that implies. That' s that banishment,

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it' s a form of hell. The others are the hells we

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have built in search of paradise or
heaven, ideologies that have tried to build

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a paradise on earth, but that
have ended on the contrary, turning into

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the slaughter and hell. The man
said I think Aldus Hockley is a strange

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animal. It kills more by ideological
satiety than by hunger. I didn'

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t stay Yes, I kept thinking
about the others and the schism, the

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i- lostracism. I kept thinking
about that because then it makes me think

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that this whole culture, for example, of cancellation, is that and has

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one thing like that there was no
moral punishment since Catholic hell. I'

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ve never taught by some judges who
followed themselves a place on their side.

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Also, as it is disproportionate,
I thought, as we have ever spoken

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in the human Taint, Philip Rott' s novel, which is the first

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time that I read something about a
cancellation and that it is a novel novel,

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because in the nineties political correction found
its name. They put it there,

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put it there, the first Bush
was the first to talk about political

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correctness. We' ve talked about
this before. But I did keep thinking

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about ostracism, banishment and how easy
it is. Today the other one.

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The other day I wrote a column
on the issue of Gaza, in favour

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of the Palestinian State and against the
genocide in Gaza, very clearly that there

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is genocide there, because I believe
that is already proven. There were immediately

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a couple of people saying that was
a column justifying the genocide in Gaza.

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And I found it impressive how all
these people who have attributed themselves to the

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role of judge, who has appointed
themselves, because there is no organism,

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because they always read them diagonally.
They read diagonally because they are already determined

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to see who they are going to
condemn and whom they are not willing to

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send every day to the exact hell. That' s that relentless look from

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the others and basically that you ethically
judged that it doesn' t belong.

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If you can' t belong to
that community, social media has been overstated.

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It' s a theme that'
s been recurring on our podcast.

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It seems rich to me that,
in any case, those two concepts of

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heaven and hell, in the background, are metaphors of our ambivalent nature,

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which has always been said angels and
demons of that dual theme of the human

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being, that we are able to
surrender ourselves to us, but also to

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betray our friends in which case we
would deserve that ninth circle of hell.

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Yes, that complexity of the human
being is the material from which we are

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ethically so difficult. I think it
was Gettel who said there' s no

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crime I don' t think I
can commit. Of course, we'

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re on the edge of the us
and that' s a look that seems

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compassionate to me. That is,
it is compassionate to assume that you have

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all the violence inside and all the
evil you see outside, you can have

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it inside and not feel above others. That seems to me to be fundamental

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and makes me think that perhaps the
hell of these times is the absence of

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compassion, that is, when one
sees that there is no compassion for one

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or that one does not feel compassion
for others, there is hell that is

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lacking the ability to assume the human. I find this interesting because it takes

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us like some kind of mirror.
It' s hell. Metaphorically, it

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is nothing other than recognizing our ability
and doing evil. But then winter becomes

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the other thing, to tell me, to understand human nature in its complexity

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and to attribute that role. It' s relentless, of course, every

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day, not in an obsessive way. No mirror. No mirror. The

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fantasy that hell is the others means
literally that or the fantasy that bad guys

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are the others. I' m
impressed with those. Maybe we' ve

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already talked about it, but we
don' t care anymore. That I

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am very impressed by the stories,
novels and films that are also in the

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war and that choose as protagonist a
child that there is one can think of

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a novel by a painter named Fredulman, which is called Reencounter, or a

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film by Luis mal that is called
God to children, which was very famous

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at the end of the eighties and
near that moment. Another is called hope

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and glory and even the empire of
the sun. Those stories of war,

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the tongue of butterflies told from a
child who lives in a village, even

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bucolic, like in a paradise,
in a Eden, and suddenly there come

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some bad ones and they ruin it
and start bombing and they start closing houses,

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they start ruining what was so beautiful
and so pure and they always seemed

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to me just that trap, the
trap of us were good and there came

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some villains here and they damaged everything. And that I think it' s

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to save the social responsibility of having
begotten those villains, of having fed them,

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fattened them with the years and that
one day they were the ones who

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took charge of everything. It seems
nice to me that Ricardo had not thought

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of it, because this innocent look, that innocent look that abstracts that social

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context totally that shows this duality of
the human soul in a more bloody,

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complicated, complicated way. We are
who we are, yes and not taking

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responsibility. It also seems to me
like a way to preserve hell, to

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think that everything comes from nothing,
that evil is generated spontaneously, that they

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land the earth from time to time. It seems to me that it is

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a way of serving hell, not
of not resolving matters, of facing the

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mirror. I think so, the
fantasy that you' re part of the

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good guys is a big risk.
Yeah, hell. Maybe that' s

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the idea that there' s going
to be a relentless judge, who'

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s going to choose between them.
Here' s the good guys. Here

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are the bad ones, and the
bad ones deserve an eternal captigo. If

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we' ve been reading Mafalda in
the house with corinés so she' ll

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fall asleep, I don' t
know why she sounded. That' s

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obviously no idea of one. And
yesterday we got one of those cartoons,

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one of those Band- Aids that
I remembered, which is that Mafalda is

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with Manolito, the savage capitalist,
who has brush hair, and he is

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with Felipe, who is like the
idealist Bonachón, who tempts out, has

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gone out and dreams of the lone
lanner and is a typical one he likes

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very well, even Manolito is also
authentic. Yeah, that' s all

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gross and that' s always a
beauty. And what' s better is

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that Mafalda tells them that society has
to get ahead and then Manolito and Felipe

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almost grab to death because everyone says
that forward is to the other side.

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It' s on the opposite side. So, Manuelita goes ahead is that

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way and Felipe says no forwards,
that way and they start almost killing because

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the two have a different concept of
what it is to get ahead and I

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lack it. Then you understand why
nothing works, because everyone, as on

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Twitter, as on the networks the
hashtag, we good people are more who

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use it, the right most scary
and the craziest on the other side of

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the spectrum. It is one proof, that what is lacking is self-

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criticism, always the ability to make
therapy, to analyze oneself and there will

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always be those opposing visions and we
will never fully agree, because human affairs

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are assigned by that duality. I
would like to end with a related but

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different subject. It has to do
with the first part of the conversation,

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and it is to emphasize that neither
heaven nor hell are eternal and we do

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not want them to be eternal,
neither the one as punishment nor the other

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as permanent pleasure. There is a
small story hidden in a novel by Julian

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Barns, this British writer, which
is used with great connections to French culture.

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Also one person goes to heaven and
arrives and six months take the sky

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and the sky is like the best
conversations, the best manquets, the best

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parties. Six months, he'
s happy there and some afternoon he finds

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a crowd of people in the sky
around an aparatic where there' s a

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button to press and there' s
the administrator of the sky. Always,

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always there has to be a Urse
administrator this one approaches, approaches this crowd,

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these people who are there and asks
good and what happens. They'

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re looking and they don' t
push it that little button, because this

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is forever over and they ask and
someone has ever pushed it and the administrator

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of heaven tells them they all ended
up doing it to be part of the

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good ones is. Nothing is eternal, neither heaven nor hell. There'

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s a movie that I really like
that' s called The Fending Your Life,

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which they put in Spanish biza el
paraíso, which is like a chipitche

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song, because it' s from
a guy or a comedian named Albert Brooks

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who' s great and he'
s a guy who dies and he'

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s going to hit the sky and
what happens in heaven is a trial movie

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with a prosecutor and lawyer and what
really makes one stay in heaven is that

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he shows that he' s no
longer afraid. And then it seems to

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me that if the opposite, heaven
is fear in that movie or hell.

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Hell is probably that, but nothing
is eternal in the world Richard is not,

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and that eternal punishment for evils that
is hell is a disproportionate human invention,

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but also a human pretense in these
times of madness, such as a

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gross embrace. It' s clear
we can all write. It is clear

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that we can all, with luck
and vocation, devote ourselves to the craft

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of writing, but lately I think
that we can not only write, but

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that we must write. Writing is
the best therapy we have at hand.

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Welcome to a fictional audio course on
how and why to write. Take the

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00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:03.799
audiocourse of fictional writing in the locutorio
com slash fictionario with Ricardo Silva Romero.

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00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:12.279
Always pick a good time. Always
choose a good conversation. Third lap podcast.

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00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:19.119
Subscribe now and listen to it every
week on your favorite platform a podcast

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produced by the speaker. The newsroom
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