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We're back with another edition of the
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Desnski,

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culture editor here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the show

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at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download
your podcasts into the premium version of

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our website as well. Today we're
joined once again by Patrick Brown, who

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is working on all pro family policy
things at the Ethleics and Public Policy Center.

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Patrick, thanks for joining us,
Emily, great to be back on

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Thanks so much so. I think
you and I have talked about this a

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little bit. But if there was
one and if there are two things that

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I think conservatives, the conservative movement, the Republican Party should be focusing more

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on, those would be healthcare and
housing. And you recently wrote just excellent,

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excellent piece talking about what conservative policy
towards housing can look like, and

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especially in this new context of so
many people putting their heads together on the

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right and thinking what is pro family
policy? What is a Republican Party?

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What is a conservative movement post Trump? Where you have some new coalitions,

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some new voters joining the mix,
what is you know, the post populist

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or the populist Republican Party. What
should policy look like? Could you give

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us before we kind of dive into
some of the details, a broad overview

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of when it comes to housing,
A why you think it's so important for

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people to address, and then be
what your sort of suggestions from the peace

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are. Yeah. No, thinks
that's a great sort of synopsis of what

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I'm trying to do here, because
I do think that when we talk about

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being pro family, we have a
lot of ideas that have been getting a

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lot of attention on the right.
Uh, you know, stuff like the

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child tax credit, paid leave,
baby bonuses, all these sort of things

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which are great and good, and
we should be continuing to think about those.

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And obviously I spent a lot of
time thinking about this, but when

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we think about families as they're currently
constituated today and also future families, right,

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people who haven't had kids because they
feel too financially precarious or concerned about

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their ability to provide. I think
one of the biggest weights on people's pocketbooks

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is the cost of housing, and
about about a third of the typical family's

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budget goes towards housing, either the
form of rent or mortgage payments, and

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it used to be the case that
we could kind of tell ourselves the story

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that you know, oh, well, New York City or San Francisco or

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you know, Los Angeles, Washington, see these big metro areas, those

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are the places that have this,
you know, really bad housing affordability problem.

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But out here in real America,
we're doing just fine. And that's

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still somewhat true that there's a lot
of cheap houses to be had in certain

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parts of the country, but especially
after the ramifications of COVID and what that

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did to the housing market, and
places like you know, Memphis, Tennessee,

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and Des Moines, Iowa. You
know, places that are not coastal

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hubs of liberal elites, they saw
their housing markets go crazy too. And

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obviously indust rates have gone up that's
cooled some of that off, but they're

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still much higher than they were pre
COVID. So if you didn't think that

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housing affordability was an issue before COVID, I think a lot of places in

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America are realizing that it is something
that families are constrained by, that it's

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hard to afford a house, especially
if you're just starting out. And so

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if we're thinking about pro family policy
and trying to keep families at the forefront

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of our political agenda. Thinking about
ways to make housing more affordable is got

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to be near the top of the
list, both from the federal and the

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state level. Yeah. Absolutely,
And you know, again, especially on

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this issue, and you've pointed this
out, I think you point this out

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in the piece, But like this
seems so obvious. It's it's such a

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fertile ground for conservatives. What should
people be looking at right now if they

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want to offer policy prescription for conservative
policy on housing. Yeah, I mean

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it is fertile ground, both in
the sense of being right to be discussed

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and also literally fertile in the sense
that we know from economic research that house

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prices have the direct impact on people's
decisions whether or not to have kids or

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not. And in a context in
which the birth rate is falling and people

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are putting off parenthood until later in
life. If we rely on an economic

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model lists as house prices should always
be high and never never falling, that

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you know, we need we need
to prioritize homeowners interests first and foremost before

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we concerned about getting people sort of
on the building equity in their home well,

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that's gonna that's going to contribute to
decreasing fertility. And we know again

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we know this from California and other
places that when the house price in your

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neighborhood goes up, if you're a
homeowner, you feel a little richer,

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you're you're a little more likely to
have kids. But if you don't own

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a home, as so many people
in Lucy as the California don't, you

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actually have lower fertility. So it
is it directly related to this question of

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family formation and how we can help
people you know, have kids to our

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families and and sort of you know, really have a piece in the American

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dream. Now this gets a little
complicated because, on the one hand,

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I think it is a natural sort
of limited government impulse to say, uh,

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you know, if we want to
make housing more affordable, all the

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easiest and most straightforward thing to do
is to restrict sorry to make supply easier

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to build. We get easier to
build houses. We can talk about all

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the red tape and reform restrictions that
are piled on top of developers trying to

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build houses, and you know,
I think that makes a lot of sense.

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Unfortunately, once you break it down
to the local level. A lot

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of times there's a hesitation, often
for a good reason. What is this

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going to do to the environment,
What is this going to do to traffic,

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What is this going to do to
our schools and the you know,

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the appeal of our neighborhood, all
these sort of things which are valid concerns.

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But the problem is once they stack
up and make it harder and harder

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for people to build new houses,
we see the kind of constraints that are

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driving house prices up. And again
this really impacts people just starting out on

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life, young couples who don't have
a nest egg to turn to, who

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have a real trade off between well, can we afford a down payment on

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a home and think about having our
first or second kid. These are linkages

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that we can see in the researcher, we know in our personal lives as

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well. So I do think that
this is something that conservatives, who maybe

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a little more hesitated about change sometimes. And again we you know, as

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good as conservatives, we all are, you know, a different points in

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our lives, but when it comes
to housing especially, I think this is

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when where conservatives need to lean in
towards this idea of making sure that we

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have an abundance of housing for families
of all types across the income of spectrum.

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Can you break down the Yimbi nimbi
dynamic in this space, because it

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is I mean, if you just
dip your toe into the water of the

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housing debate, you're just immediately bombarded
with both sides of the humbie nimbie debate,

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like just flooding the conversation. What
does that look like? I mean

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my impression is that it's actually fairly
heated, and it's sort of I don't

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know, it's like almost trans political, a political, but it's it's more

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the like actual yes in my backyard. No, not in my backyard.

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Those dynamics are are more powerful and
most than partisan affiliation. Yeah. No,

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And it's you know, as I
said of mentioned, I think a

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lot of it started to grow in
these deep blue cities New York City,

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uh, you know, DC,
San Francisco started to be the hotbeds of

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the Yimbi movement. Yes, in
my backyard movement precisely because there were a

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lot of sort of i'll say,
you know, neoliberal folks who saw that

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supply constraints and really oppressive affordable housing
mandates and environmental regulations, all these sorts

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of things were making it really difficult
for developers to build housing to accommodate all

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these people who wanted to live in
those blue cities. So, you know,

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just economics one O one. When
you have supply constraint and growing demand,

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prices are going to rise. And
so that's kind of where things started.

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But again we're starting to see this
even in places like Montana and Utah,

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you know, not deep blue places
at all, but recognizing that there's

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growing demand to live there, especially
in a post COVID landscape. And so

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there's they're starting to be a Yimbi
movement you know, across the US,

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which is in my opinion, great
to see. And and again I think

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the most natural marriage on the sort
of yes in my backyard side has been

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between sort of market friendly progressives and
more libertarian types on the right who are

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sort of opposed to government regulation in
general and especially in housing, saying let's

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just, you know, rip up
the rule book and let the market do

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what it does best. And I
think, you know, the opposition the

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Nimbi crew and not in my backyard
has again been these people with maybe a

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more I think to put a chart
of a more burkeyan sense of change right.

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Well, you know, I'm not
opposed to new housing, but can

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we really find somewhere else to put
it right? Or or you know,

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what's this going to again? What's
this going to do for traffic or my

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kids school? These are all valid
concerns, and I really get annoyed with

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some of the more vocal yimbi types
on Twitter who say, well, all

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opposition to new housing is just based
on racism or based on classism or something

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like that. No. I mean, if you're if you're a homeowner in

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a good neighborhood or a decent neighborhood, and you want to protect your home

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value, which is for a lot
of people the biggest source of your wealth

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and a nest egg for retirement.
These are all valid concerns that I think

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policymakers and you know, advocates need
to be grappling with a figure out how

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we can address some of these things
and make people be a little less worried

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about what the long term consequences is
going to be. And I think the

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story there has to be pointing out
that if you want your kids to be

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able to grow up in the same
neighborhood that you did, you know,

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the same quality of life unless we're
going to have negative population growth. Just

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as a matter of pure mathematics,
we need to be increasing the housing supply

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to accommodate more families and more kids, because again, a world in which

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we have stagnant population growth and one
in which housing is incredibly expensive is one

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that we're going to continue to see
the US fertility rate declining. And uh,

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you know, for a conservative,
for a social conservative, for myself,

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that's that's a that's a more permanent
value to cherish. That's something that

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we I want to fight against as
hard as I can. And if it

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means you know, sometimes you know, again reforming zoning or loosening some land

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use restrictions or getting rid of some
community input on certain projects just because it's

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going to help things get build faster
and cheaper and expand housing a little bit

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easier than that to me is a
value that that's worth, that's worth kind

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of putting out over some of these
other ones. But again, we shouldn't

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be just totally dumping on the names, because they've raised valid points, and

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ideally there'd be a way of balancing
these interests. I think in practice,

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once you have lots of communities all
with their different restrictions and zoning and that

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sort of thing, you end up
the case where I think some of these

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state laws trying to trying to override
certain localities restrictions makes sense just because if

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you think about subsidiarity and the idea
that authorities should evolve down to the lowest

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appropriate level of political authority, well, if cities aren't able to manage their

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housing market in an appropriate manner,
maybe the state is the lowest level of

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appropriate authority. And I think I
think we're starting to see some states move

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in that direction. Correct me if
I'm wrong. But I thought Trump,

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like out of nowhere, waited into
this conversation once about multi family. What

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wasn't he doing something to like prevent
multifamily or he waited on the development of

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multifamily buildings in the suburbs and remember
that. Yeah, and this is where

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I guess a little tricky because that
there's a there's a federal regulation about Without

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boring everybody with the technical details,
basically there was a move under Secretary Ben

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Carson, who is the head of
HUT at that at that time to encourage

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sub herbs, especially you know,
richer suburbs, to proactively embrace multifamily developments

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and apartments and that sort of thing. And before that regulation was finalized,

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uh, some folks on the right
kind of got President Trump's here and got

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him to to sort of squash that
and uh, you know, there was

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a minor uh back and forth on
the right about the the wisdom of that

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move, you know, and in
some cases, like you would hope President

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Trump, with his background as a
real estate developer, would would understand the

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benefit of having you know, sort
of freer markets for housing and more opportunities

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to build more factive housing. But
again, these touch on really important questions

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about what kind of character we want
our community to have. And I think

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that's where those of us sort of
on the pro family right need to need

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to make the case to our our
fellow conservatives and say, look, again,

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these are valid concerns. You know, your your your your your home

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value is again is a big source
of wealth for people. Your kids school

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is really important, all these kind
of things. But at the end of

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the day, if we're not if
we're not expanding the housing stock and we're

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not making it easier for people to
build. We're going to be faced with

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the situation where too many young people
feel like they have to put off starting

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a family because they just simply can't
afford it. And that, to me,

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is a large part of the reason
why we're seeing marriage race decline and

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fertility race decline. And that is
something that I think a lot of conservatives

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can understand at a gut level that
this is not an economic model that is

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conducive to family formation. And so
you know again, yeah, I like

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to think that if that debate comes
up again, there might be a little

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bit more recognition now a couple of
years later that housing has this important role

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to play in family formation, that
we could we could maybe have some friends

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of the White House under a second
Trump administration who could convince them to take

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a different line. Hey, y'all, this is Sarah Carter, investigative columnist

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00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,120
and host of The Sarah Carter Show. Thanks for listening to the Federalist.

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Sarah. Well, and another point

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that you're just making is you're making
it easier for the supply to grow,

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and that's not stretching or even challenging
free market orthodoxy and the way that it's

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sort of been wedded to conservative orthodoxy. And obviously you're part of this conversation.

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We talked about it all the time
here about how some challenges do really

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demand a return to this conversation about
why markets exist, what good do markets

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serve? But in this case,
I don't know. You're the one who's

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00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:52,840
out here writing about it till you
wouldn't know because you've gotten responses. But

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I don't really even see this as
a challenge to the sort of orthodoxy.

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At the end of the day,
this is a simple matter of supply and

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demand. Well, right, I
mean, I think that's the cleanest case

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for it. And to point out
that we used to have a much more

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you know, uh, let it
wild lest I guess approach to housing construction

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in the fifties and sixties, And
it wasn't until the nineteen seventies, when

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you have high inflation and the rise
of the environmental movement that all of a

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sudden you start to see states and
localities really clamping down artificially, restricting supply.

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And you know, I'm not a
market fundamentalist, I guess it's fair

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to say, you know, I
think markets are incredible tools that need to

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be you know, pointed in the
right direction, and in this case,

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I think the right direction has to
be making it easier for people to afford

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a home, and we know that
homeownership is uh, you know, correlated

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with all sorts of positive social outcomes. And if if people are you know,

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living their early you know, twenties, thirties, even into their forties

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renting, that's again that's that's they're
not building equity and that's going to make

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it harder for them over the long
term. But also they just feel less

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stable financially and they're more you know, subject to the whims of a landlord

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or the market going crazier or whatever, and of course that's going to have

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an impact on people's ability to have
a family. And so yeah, in

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some respects it is sort of getting
back to basics approach to what the market

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can do. And you know,
the market is a tremendous tool and something

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like housing that I think, you
know, the US had this experience with

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housing boom in the post World War
two era where we were building millions of

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housing units and we and today,
when our population is twice as big as

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it was, we're actually building fewer
housing units. So that's to me a

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sign that we kind of overcorrected that
you know, people were concerned about the

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environment and all these different things.
But they they they kind of froze the

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system and amber and they made it
too hard to build apartments and build smaller

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homes. Right that The decline of
the starter home is another story here where

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because developers are constrained on what they
can build. Well, if you can

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build something, you want to make
as much money as you can off of

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it, and so that means building
a luxury unit, right or building something

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with a big yard or granted countertops
and all that kind of stuff to be

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able to charge a premium for people
who are who are buying a new house,

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00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,599
which means that you know, again
this idea of the you know,

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two bedroom starter home or something like
that has really effectively disappeared from the market

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in terms of new building. And
so again, if you're a new family,

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00:19:26,519 --> 00:19:30,640
if you're a young family, a
couple thinking about having a kid,

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you can't afford a seven hundred thousand
dollars home on you know, on a

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00:19:36,079 --> 00:19:41,119
starting off salary. That's that's really
difficult to do. And so having a

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diversity of supply coming out of home
builders and apartments and that sort of thing

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is part of the story here too. So you're a father and a husband

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and are in some ways much more
qualified to speak to this than I am

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as a you know, an apartment
dweller for the last decade, which,

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by the way, these buildings in
DC are there are no children unless you're

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in one of the more working class. Uh. You know, when when

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I first got out of college,
I was in one that that had a

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lot of kids, but it was
in a more working class neighborhood. But

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the ones that are in the sort
of fancy neighborhoods that I think of as

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like millennial Disney Worlds because they just
started this weird, like almost prefab strange

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00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:29,640
universe that extends only a few blocks
in LA parts of like New Jersey probably

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now and DC and other places,
they're just there are no children. And

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I wanted to ask why it is
that ownership of your space and of your

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home. It is something that's so
important to people who are are thinking about

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family formation, and that is an
abstract question, but I think it's actually

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a really interesting part of this discussion
because there are surveys that show things like,

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for instance, student loans, housing
prices prevent people from getting married,

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prevent people from starting families. Uh
and and just you know, as as

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deep as you want to go on
this, Patrick, why do you think

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that looms so large when people are
making these decisions. Yeah, I mean

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you think back to the you know, nineteen tons, nineteen twenties, people

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were having nine kids in New York
tenements, right, I mean people made

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it work and back in the day. And now I think the the the

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bar that the threshold at which people
feel like they need to be able to

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00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:34,680
provide for their kids has risen as
our economy has grown and as as you

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00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,119
know, all sorts of consumer goods
have increased. It's if you raise your

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00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,880
kid on a nineteen forties or nineteen
fifties standard of living today, you know,

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00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,960
you'd feel like you were going to
be called in by CPS. Right,

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I mean people want to have their
kids have their own space and room

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00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,440
to run in the backyard, all
these sort of things. And then that

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00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,880
doesn't touch on questions like school quality, crime, you know, the amenities

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00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,799
of life. You know a lot
of times you're living in cities, right,

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00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,319
Afford college is great. I did
it until I get married, but

295
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then you know, it's it's sort
of the life cycle. Right. You

296
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,960
quote unquote, settled down, moved
to the suburbs. You have your own,

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00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,519
your own space to call home.
And you know, not always the

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00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,119
you know, sometimes when things break, you wish you had your landlord back

299
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,279
again to help fix things. But
uh, you know, for the most

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00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:32,440
part, there's a reason why America
has such high rates of homeownership compared to

301
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,839
the rest of the world. We
have a lot of space, we have

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00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,759
a lot of money, we have
a lot of freedom. And that's wonderful.

303
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,920
And and you know, the sort
of idea of the white picket fence

304
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,279
in the yard and all that sort
of stuff. You know, a lot

305
00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:47,480
of people aspire to that. Now. You know, a lot of people

306
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,160
make in work and cities. Obviously
there's there's couples in in Washington, DC

307
00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:55,359
and elsewhere that that have kids and
make it work, and that's that's great.

308
00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:57,279
There's a lot of you said to
that, a lot of you said

309
00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:02,000
for that kind of approach. But
when you just ask people what they're looking

310
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000
for, a lot of a lot
of people say, I want a yard,

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00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,400
I want you know, multiple bedrooms
and space for my kids and all

312
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,599
that sort of stuff. And you
know, the nice thing about a sort

313
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:17,359
of housing abundance agenda is just is
not saying everybody needs to live in an

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00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,039
apartment or everybody needs to live in
a single family home. Is to say,

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00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:25,799
look, people have different preferences.
Let's expand the availability of different types

316
00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:29,279
of housing, and you know,
recognizing that. You know, again,

317
00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:30,759
when you're single and child list,
maybe you want to live in the city,

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00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:33,960
you move back to the tubers when
you have kids. Then when you're

319
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,400
an empty nester, you can downsize
and move back to an apartment and you

320
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,440
know, enjoy all the DC or
wherever has to offer. These preferences aren't

321
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:48,440
consistent over time, but when you
have a supply constraint on housing, then

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00:23:48,519 --> 00:23:52,720
you lock people into where they are. You have a lot of seniors who

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00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:56,480
feel like, you know, I
got to hold on to this this place

324
00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,119
because I can't sell right now or
whatever. These kind of dynamics kind of

325
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:06,119
freeze up the housing market and make
it harder for Again, my concern is

326
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:10,200
family information, helping people get married, helping people have kids, and a

327
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:14,680
market that is artificially supplied and strained. You're never going to be able to

328
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,880
subsidize your way out of right.
You can't. We've seen from higher at

329
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,119
right. How the how if you
try to subsidize demand, all that does

330
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,720
is just inflate prices. Right,
you give people more student loans and what

331
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:29,640
do you know, the colleges turn
around and raise the cost or tuition by

332
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,279
that amount or more. Similarly,
on the housing kind of things, if

333
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,720
we were to try to subsidize home
ownership, sort of similar to how the

334
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:44,240
Georgia of you Bush administration attempted to
do stuffs along these lines in their time

335
00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:47,240
and office. If you try to
do that too heavily, you end up

336
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,960
with perverse and centives and people underwater
with their mortgages all that sort of stuff.

337
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,519
Not great. But if you allow
for the supply side of the equation

338
00:24:55,519 --> 00:25:00,559
to expand, then again you have
more options at different points along the spectrum,

339
00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:03,279
right, so people can find a
cheaper house when they want to,

340
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,920
that sort of thing. Those those
you know, there's no one right way

341
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,519
to live, right. You know, my boss Ryan Anderson lives out on

342
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:14,960
a farm way out in Virginia somewhere. And you know, I got other

343
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,559
friends who who raise kids in the
big city. That's all great, that's

344
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:22,440
all wonderful, But the point is
we should be trying to allow people to

345
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,839
achieve their purposes, whatever that looks
like. And to me, the fundamental

346
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,119
question is is there enough housing in
those places to a lot of people who

347
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,880
live where they want to? And
to me, at a lot of places

348
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,920
in the country, not just in
big cities, but in Raleigh, North

349
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,839
Carolina, and uh, you know, Nashville and all these places, Austin,

350
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,559
Texas obviously, all these places that
are growing, the answer is increasingly

351
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,920
no, there's not enough housing,
and that's going to have perverse effects down

352
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:56,279
the line. Yes, Ryan Anderson, homestead influencer for the masses. No,

353
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,960
No, that's that's all very interesting
and helpful, Patrick, because there's

354
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,519
a stunning contrast. I think when
you look at how Republican politicians and democratic

355
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:11,359
politicians and the conservative movement and the
progressive movement talk about these the two issues

356
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,519
in particular that I raised, healthcare
and housing. But housing you hear all

357
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:19,480
of the time, not just from
the progressive left, but from you know,

358
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,559
kind of middle of the road democrats
the extent that exists anymore, but

359
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:27,519
you know you're you're sort of mainstream
democrat. They're talking all of the time

360
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,440
about housing prices, healthcare prices,
and when you look at poland you do

361
00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,799
see how heavily this ways on the
average American. You don't even need to

362
00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,759
look at polling to understand that.
You know, you can look at the

363
00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:44,039
contours of the Biden economy, but
you can look at the numbers that you've

364
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,880
raised here, Patrick, and it's
it's fairly easy to understand this is a

365
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,799
huge problem, not just for people's
pocketbooks, but then for the ripple effects

366
00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:57,279
that it has culturally. Why is
it, I mean, maybe you know,

367
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,319
you're you're hearing more of this from
Republican politicians than what I've seen.

368
00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:07,880
Why do you think it is that
it hasn't really gotten onto the radar?

369
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,880
I mean, is it because a
lot of Republicans are a lot of people

370
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,240
in the conservative movement tend to be
the people who have you know, sort

371
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:18,759
of climbed the ladder already. Uh, not a you know, flood of

372
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,079
young activists like there is on the
left. But it's it's a lot of

373
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:27,319
people who have already formed their families
and you know, made decent livings,

374
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,960
etcetera, etcetera. What's going on? Why is that a blind spot?

375
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,680
If it is a blind spot,
yeah, no, I think I think

376
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,359
that's part of the story that Republicans
in general will tend to be older.

377
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,880
I don't think that's a secret.
And if you're older, you're more likely

378
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,599
to own a house, you're more
likely to kind of have a vested interest

379
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,359
in in keeping your house price high, and you know, keeping your community

380
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:51,799
the way you like it. And
again, conservatives are sort of averse to

381
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,480
change to begin with that. You
know, I get that I have those

382
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,559
sentiments as Bill, and so I
think that's that's part of it. And

383
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:04,799
you know, but I think that, you know, comparing this to health

384
00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:08,720
care for example, you know,
we could have another lengthy discussion sometimes on

385
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:12,240
healthcare policy, because I do think
you're starting to see that conversations shift a

386
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:15,759
little bit on the right. When
you think about what Senator jd Vance has

387
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:18,839
talked about, and this idea of
making childbirth, you know, more affordable

388
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,680
or even free for some parents.
Certainly a lot of the conversations around uh,

389
00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:26,720
you know, health and the well
isn't and and uh, you know

390
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,759
what that's looking like in in more
trad circles online that sort of thing.

391
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:40,359
But I think part of the shift
that's happening is a younger generation feeling the

392
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,000
effects of these artificial supply constigens on
the economy, and we know that.

393
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:49,400
You know, for example, since
two thousand, the share of young adults

394
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,519
living with their parents rather than starting
out on their own, it has gone

395
00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:57,400
up about fifteen percent, which you
know, isn't isn't you know, it

396
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:03,039
doesn't sound like a lot, but
that's millions of potential you know, homebuyers,

397
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:07,839
potential, spouses, potential you know, people you know getting involved in

398
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,400
the community that are just sort of
failing to launch because house prices are so

399
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,400
high. It doesn't make sense to
go out and pay for an apartment in

400
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,200
downtown you know, Portland, Oregon, when you can be living with your

401
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,440
parents in the suburbs, you know, at a discount, right, And

402
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400
in previous generations people were more willing
to do that because there were more,

403
00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:27,960
you know, cheaper options available.
And you know, again, I think

404
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:36,640
this, this idea that the economy
is sort of skewed towards the interests of

405
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,000
of you know, older voters,
is you know, pretty pretty evident.

406
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,640
In housing, This idea that you
know, well, we just need to

407
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,039
make sure house prices never go down. You know, the benefits people who

408
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,799
already bought their house twenty thirty years
ago. But if you're somebody who's just

409
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,720
starting out, oh, that's that
that really sucks for you. Right.

410
00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:59,640
And similarly, you know, we
can talk about entitlements and healthcare, so

411
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,079
these other things where the status quo
is clearly set to benefit, you know,

412
00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,599
the people who were sort of bought
in from the get go and in

413
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,599
you know, benefiting from the status
quo. And again, I don't want

414
00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:12,680
to make all those concerns sound like
you know, they're they're irrelevant. Obviously,

415
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,640
they're tremendously relevant politically, if nothing
else. We want to make sure

416
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,440
that our seniors are taking care of
on that sort of thing. But when

417
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,519
it comes to our political priorities,
it's very clear that that we I think

418
00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:33,839
we've we've over emphasized the amount of
social and political resources that were that we

419
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:37,359
we wanted to guarantee to our seniors. When you're talking about uh, you

420
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,960
know, medicare that sort of thing, and and under under focused on how

421
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,440
these questions affect family information and kids
and families and that sort of thing.

422
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,880
I do think that conversation is shifting
on the right, But you know,

423
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,079
it's it's a it's a it's a
long battle. It's not going to be

424
00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:57,960
you know, it's not going to
change over ninety times again. The Washtout

425
00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:02,960
on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection

426
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:07,279
between politics and the economy and how
it affects your wallet. Flashback to Obamacare,

427
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,599
health insurance costs for employers are set
to take their biggest jump in years.

428
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,480
How does this affect you? Good
luck getting a raise with inflation still

429
00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:18,680
high. Don't expect to thank you
card from those who got subsidized health insurance.

430
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,319
Whether it's happening in DC or down
on Wall Street, it's affecting you

431
00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:25,519
financially. Be informed. Check out
the Watchdoto on Wall Street podcast with Chris

432
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:33,960
Markowski on Apples, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcast. Yeah,

433
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,359
and you know, the student loan
question, I think is a parallel one

434
00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,079
in some ways. And of course
your first and foremost because of the subsidy

435
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:45,960
issue that you mentioned, and then
that brings us to the feasibility issue.

436
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,000
You know, it's it's so hard
to really imagine save for you know,

437
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:55,200
a potentially like a president run to
Santis or someone we're really getting into and

438
00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:59,480
maybe a President Trump would do it
too, but like really being willing to

439
00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:07,799
challenge or to take on entrenched interests
that are are completely embedded in our economy

440
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:15,119
and our government forces and housing subsidies. Especially the political feasibility of starting to

441
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,680
disentangle some of those programs and to
pull them up by their roots locally nationally,

442
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,160
that is seems like a Sissippian like
an uphill climb, for sure.

443
00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:29,519
What is the feasibility of, you
know, whether it's a Republican or a

444
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:35,000
Democratic politician coming into a state level, local level, federal level, and

445
00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:37,880
you know, being willing to kind
of bite the bullet on some of these

446
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,759
policies and say we're gonna make housing
more affordable. It's going to involve taking

447
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:47,480
some tough steps. Yeah, I
mean, I'm actually cautiously optimistic, and

448
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,200
you know, in some respects,
I think Blue states have have sort of

449
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:57,200
done their own version of this,
where they're they couched all of their sort

450
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,079
of housing affordability measures in this language
of systemic racism. Right. Oh,

451
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:07,039
we have these legacies of disinvestment and
racism that we need to uproot, and

452
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:10,440
that's why we need to let the
housing market work more efficiently. You know,

453
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:14,480
I wouldn't agree with the narrative,
but I'm happy to see the result

454
00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:20,000
in other in red states. In
Montana is my favorite because they have this

455
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,240
a very aggressive slate of pro housing
reforms. They pushed through with the slogan,

456
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,880
don't California, my Montana right,
This idea that California is the poster

457
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:36,400
child for what happens when you set
the policy decision making apparatus in stone in

458
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,920
the early nineteen seventies and then never
touch it because you're too worried about what's

459
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,039
going to happen to the homeowners who
will come back and bite you. You

460
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:45,720
don't want that. You don't want
that if you're Montana or Tennessee or Utah

461
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:51,039
or Texas, right. You want
a system that's dynamic, that's entrepreneurial,

462
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:55,440
that let's the economy work. In
California is the perfect example of what happens

463
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,519
when you sort of say you hit
the pause button and say we're good.

464
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,279
This is the amount of housing we
want. We want to make it really

465
00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:06,960
difficult to build unless you're going to
be building a way out in you know,

466
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,599
a baker's field somewhere where nobody wants
to live. If you're around Orange

467
00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:15,880
County or Los Angeles, San Diego. You know how just I bleedingly expensive

468
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,480
it is to try to afford anything
out there, and that's because a lot

469
00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:23,880
of people want to live there and
and the the development has just not been

470
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:30,639
allowed to to adjust to that.
So I think that conservatives in at the

471
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,559
state level are starting to recognize this, and we're starting to see said movement.

472
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:37,599
And again, this is where this
sort of our more hardcore limited government

473
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:43,119
friends on the on the libertarian right, can you know, work together with

474
00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,599
with I think, you know,
sort of pro family conservatives in this in

475
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:51,559
this approach that getting government out of
the way and allowing the market to work

476
00:34:51,599 --> 00:34:54,519
more efficiently can make housing more affordable
and make life easier for families. I

477
00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:59,440
think I think, I'm I'm cautiously
optimistic that that's going to happen to the

478
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,119
sea level. At the federal level, you know, obviously, you know,

479
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:06,599
housing policy is largely set by states
and localities, so there's a little

480
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,199
bit of a limited nexus. But
the bully pulpit matters a ton. And

481
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,519
as we saw, as we talked
about when President Trump kind of came out

482
00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:19,360
really hard against this idea of you
know, and again this isn't the proposal

483
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,039
itself. I wouldn't necessarily fall on
indoors. But but the conversation was directionally,

484
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:28,719
should we make it easier or harder
to build apartments in wealthy suburbs?

485
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,480
And he came very hard down on
the side of no, we don't want

486
00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:37,159
to do that. I think the
right kind of leadership could change some of

487
00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:43,079
the conversation and help people be a
little less concerned maybe about you know,

488
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,639
the gramifications of a looser approach of
some of these questions. Obviously, once

489
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:51,679
you start talking about you know,
affordable housing and public support and that sort

490
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,639
of thing, I think that does, you know, make the conversation a

491
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,880
little tougher. And obviously there's there's
some trade offs there, but there's enough.

492
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:05,199
There's there's enough low hanging fruit just
by making it easier to build houses

493
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,639
without even getting to the end of
the government programs affordable housing side of things

494
00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:14,519
that I think that's where the emphasis
needs to be right now. Yeah,

495
00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:16,280
you've wrote about this. I think
it was for the public discourse. It

496
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,000
was a great piece there. You've
written about it for some other places.

497
00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:22,440
Where can people just follow your work? Patrick? As you're you're writing on

498
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,280
all of these things, whether it's
child tax credit, housing, just general

499
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,599
pro family policy stuff, realignment stuff. Where can people follow you? Oh

500
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:37,679
yeah, well I'm still on x
I guess Twitter. At PTB Rights,

501
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:42,800
we've got a biweekly newsletter, so
we won't clutter your own box. But

502
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,599
if you go to EPPC dot org
you can sign up for that there.

503
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,440
And I try to, you know, compile all the different things I'm writing

504
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,599
up because you know, pro family
policies is great because everything kind of touch

505
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:55,559
us on a family. So things
like housing, healthcare, you know,

506
00:36:55,559 --> 00:37:01,199
obviously tax policy, those all matter
tremendous lead off families pocketbooks, and you

507
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,760
know, more importantly, they're the
values and the kind of lives they want

508
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,400
to live. And to the extent
that we can get Republicans and conservatives recognizing

509
00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:14,679
that, you know, the economy
needs to be oriented towards providing for families

510
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,719
and working towards that end of making
it easier to get married and have kids,

511
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,079
I think that's the future for the
Considerative Party movement, I hope,

512
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:27,960
And that's where I hope Republican politicians
will continue to be pressing forwards on.

513
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,400
Patrick Brown of the Ethics and Public
Policy Center. Thank you for joining the

514
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,679
show again. It's always grace to
talk Emily anytime. Thanks so much.

515
00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:38,360
You've been listening to another edition of
The Federalists for radio hour. I'm emo

516
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,800
logicians Ski culture Editory here. The
Federalists will be back soon with more.

517
00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:57,519
Until then, be lovers of freedom
and anxious for the press right