WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.320 Here's another show you can enjoy in the True Story FM family of entertainment podcasts. 2 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:07.280 Ever, wonder where the devil got his horns? How about those clove 3 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:10.439 and hoovers for that pitchforks an angel? No, he was a snake. 4 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.759 No, he's the Great Red Drag. No, he's the beasts, the 5 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.399 Prince of this world, Prince of Darkness, believes, the Prince of dark 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.640 Good Morning, Star Lovelies. One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark, 7 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.879 and I sometimes go by Keenan Dias and we're the hosts of the brand new 8 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:28.239 podcast The Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer? How 9 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.600 about Satan? What about just the Devil? How did the big bad of 10 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:35.039 the Western world end up with so many faces? Join us as we dig 11 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:38.880 up, decipher, and deconstruct the Devil's many forms throughout history. Take a 12 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:43.240 guided tour with Dante through the Nine Circles of Hell, or revisit Satan's angsty 13 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.119 bad boy years in Paradise Loss. Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian 14 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:49.640 contract easier than a ten ninety nine, but with a hell of a lot 15 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:53.240 more fine prince s. Lither on over to the Devil's Details on True Story 16 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:57.640 FM and join us in the Diabolic discussion Love and His is w didn't al 17 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.920 Pacino play him in a movie? Sure? There wasn't. Robert didn't there 18 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.320 one? It was sincause that was Elizabeth who he go down to Georgia and 19 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:17.359 something. Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, 20 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:22.359 myself, Matthew and my co host Riki Hayashi are talking about the question when 21 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.400 should a hero hang up the cape? And there's an interesting story of how 22 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.840 we got to this particular question because it kind of came from two different directions. 23 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.719 The first one was a question that I've often thought about, and it 24 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.400 really came to my mind when I watched X Men ninety seven, is when 25 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:46.799 does a hero get to say, you know what I've done enough. It's 26 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:51.480 time for me to have the spouse and family, or just go and travel 27 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:55.120 the world, or just go sit in my backyard and read books. Because 28 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.799 I've been putting my life on the line however many years, and it's time 29 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.599 for me to stop. In X Men ninety seven, to the characters try 30 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:07.000 to do that and are somewhat successful, we get a lot of pushback from 31 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:09.560 some members of their team. It's a good thinking about, like should heroes 32 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:15.560 be able to put their own personal interests above what other people think they need 33 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:22.680 to do? And then the second thing was, I can't imagine why this 34 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:27.479 is in my mind recently, but I've been thinking a lot about when should 35 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.680 people decide that they need to step down and let someone else take up the 36 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:35.479 reins of leadership or the heroess or the fight. Again, not connected to 37 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.759 anything in the news recently, but this topic, I think is one that 38 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:45.439 also comes up in comics, in fantasy and all these things all the time. 39 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:49.120 Is when does the generate? When does the older generation need to step 40 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:53.000 aside to make room for the next generation. When does the hero realize that 41 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:58.199 he's actually not able to win the fight anymore, that he might even be 42 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:00.680 causing harm, They might even be causing a harm by staying in the fight, 43 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:05.879 and they need to be able to train their replacement or step down or 44 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.759 something like that. So these kind of things both come to this question of 45 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:14.000 when does a hero hang up the cape? And we're gonna talk about kind 46 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:15.919 of some of the factors that go into it before discussing the exact questions. 47 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:20.159 But Riki i just want to give you a chance to introduce yourself and say 48 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:23.439 kind of your row thoughts on this. Yeah, when you brought this topic 49 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:29.000 to me, For me, like the angle I approached it from was sports, 50 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:36.639 because athletes get old and their productivity declines, and there are often at 51 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:42.319 the the tail end of people's careers there are discussions of should they retire this 52 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.680 season, like should they keep going, et cetera. So that's definitely like 53 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:52.919 what I thought of. In terms of the the question of heroes like X 54 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.240 Men, you know, superheroes, comic book heroes, I do want to 55 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:02.759 say that the cynic in me says they never retire because of the publisher. 56 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:09.000 And in fact, when we're talking about Cyclops in Gene Gray, the story 57 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.319 that that was based on, like them getting married and having a kid, 58 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.199 they actually did retire. The writer Chris Claremont wanted that to be the end 59 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:23.079 of their story, right, wanted that to be the retirement for those characters 60 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.040 and then have the new, newer X Men characters he was writing take over 61 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.720 the mantle, and Marvel Comics is like, no, they're very popular, 62 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:39.279 bring them back. So that, like to me, you cannot separate the 63 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.439 business from the art unfortunately in comic books, because one of the other prominent 64 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.800 examples is Batman. Right, like, we have seen media like fifty years 65 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:53.639 in the future where Batman has retired, but any quote unquote current story with 66 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:59.639 Batman, you know, he is still I don't even know how old he 67 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.079 is, but he's still going strong no matter like how old he is, 68 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:06.480 I guess, oh for sure. And so I think for this my angle 69 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:10.279 is more not about the comic book, but about some of the on screen 70 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.759 media where yeah, in one particular or maybe in one particular comics run or 71 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:17.600 the like, we're in one particular story, the character does you have to 72 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.800 hang you know, hang out the cape? Uh, maybe because they want 73 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:26.399 to like Cap in the MCU movies, I think is a great example. 74 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:31.720 Uh and uh. And as you kind of refer to Batman and Batman beyond, 75 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.439 but also I think in in you know a number of other stories. 76 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:40.279 And I also say I really like the idea of sports he brought up, 77 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.959 primarily because I do agree that the the kind of idea of the the aging 78 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:51.720 superstar who maybe is still very popular with the fans, but maybe their ability 79 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.879 is fading, or maybe the fans are you know, that there's all these 80 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:59.240 factors going in and are they still helping the team, and are they kind 81 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:01.680 of un bench able because of how big a star they are, and is 82 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:03.839 their sout like how much is their salary? And hey, and all this 83 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.240 kind of stuff. But I also think even for the kind of more Scott 84 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.639 and Jeanie great question. I look at someone like Andrew Luck who was the 85 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.680 quarterback for the Indianapolis Colts, very successful. I think he had like a 86 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:21.279 seven or eight year career and then while he had a bad injury, but 87 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:24.920 then he came back from it and then was like, no, you know 88 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.839 what, I'm done. I don't want to, you know, be hobbling 89 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.439 the rest of my life because I destroyed my knees playing the sport. I'm 90 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:34.000 you know, I have kids, I want to spend time with them. 91 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.199 I've made enough money to be comfortable with the rest of my life. I'm 92 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.319 just going to retire. And a lot of Indianapolis called hands very upset, 93 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:43.920 and a lot of people other folks are like, no, he gets to 94 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.040 do what he wants to do. So yeah, I think sports is a 95 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:47.639 great metaphor and we'll probably go back to that a number of times. As 96 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:53.360 well. So let's talk about what are the factors we think that go into 97 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:59.600 responsibility, because I do think a lot of this question is kind of the 98 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:08.240 side of that old you know Ben Parker quote, Uncle Ben, with great 99 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:12.000 power comes great responsibility, because in some ways, I think that's the whole 100 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.560 heart of it is what is your responsibility, both in terms of when do 101 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.759 you get to decide I no longer want to fulfill this responsibility and when do 102 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:27.079 you have to accept I'm no longer able to fulfill this responsibility. So let 103 00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.720 me first start by asking how much do you think the way in which a 104 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:36.439 person becomes a superhero or a superstar or whatever it is, and how much 105 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:46.600 agency they had over that goes into these factors into their retirement. Well, 106 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:54.079 I don't think very much. Like I don't know, I know you have 107 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:59.560 some ideas on this. I would like to hear your your thoughts. Sure, 108 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:05.240 So I kind of laid out some different ways in which someone can become 109 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:11.240 a superhero. One is where they actively choose that they volunteer or they create 110 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:16.279 the circumstances themselves, something like Captain America or Tony Stark. Sometimes where it's 111 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.879 an accident that they didn't want, but it's of their own creation, like 112 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.240 the Hulk or other kind of like I think a lot of other heroes had 113 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:26.879 that kind of like they're a mad scientist and they kind of made this all 114 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.799 happen. Some who are kind of chosen by fate or destiny or genetics, 115 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.679 like Luke Skywalker or Ang the Last Avatar somewhere it's just kind of random chances 116 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.600 of genetics like the X Men and others where someone else kind of forced it 117 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.840 upon them, like Luke Cage. And the reason why I did think it 118 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:54.320 matters is, as we'll talk at the end of the day, I think 119 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.200 this more matters for the first side of the question that the Scott and Jean 120 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.480 Gray kind of a thing, but it matters for both. But I think 121 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:07.639 the main way it matters is that I do think, as we'll talk about 122 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.440 more, for the most part, I'm always going to be supportive of a 123 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.840 hero wanting to step down, particularly if they if they've helped create a situation 124 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.480 where someone else can take their place. But I think I feel that especially 125 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.879 for people who didn't want to be heroes, you know who, like there's 126 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:30.960 a kind of like there's always this I feel like a kind of unfair tuck 127 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:37.080 push and pull between the hero and the people they're saving. Of you know, 128 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.000 someone like Luke Skywalker, he's a bad example. He wants to go 129 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.440 say that, but like someone like Aang he's a kid throughout the whole show, 130 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:52.200 but especially in the early part of season one, he doesn't want to 131 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.840 go and fight the Fire Kingdom. He doesn't want to go and do all 132 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:58.639 these things. He wants to go play with the penguins and fly in a 133 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:03.559 sky basin and do spledding and things like that. But there's a sense from 134 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.320 a lot of others, and some say directly of you have this great power 135 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.559 that no one else does, and so you have to step forward. And 136 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.559 so I guess to me, I always feel like, in some ways that's 137 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.120 kind of unfair to the hero. And sometimes there's the kind of like, 138 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.159 well, there's an existential threat. I don't ever want to be utilitarian about 139 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:26.879 it, but I do sometimes feel like, look, if millions of you 140 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:30.799 are going to die and there's no other way, then I do expect someone 141 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:35.600 to step up. But I think that that's I think it's worth acknowledging that 142 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.720 that's really unfair in some ways and that people should be able to say I 143 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.279 don't want to have this fight. And to me, someone like Haang or 144 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:48.519 someone like Luke Cage and even maybe someone like the Hulk. It's not that 145 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:50.000 I don't think someone like Tony or Cap should be able to step down, 146 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.799 but someone who didn't want this to begin with. To me, there's even 147 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.600 more of an impetus there of Yeah, when you say you're done with a 148 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:07.919 fight, I'm totally understanding. Hm hmm. Yeah. I mean when you 149 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.240 were saying that, the thing that came to my mind is Superman, and 150 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:20.440 not specifically like when does he retire? But Superman has this problem, I'll 151 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:26.639 call it a problem where because of his superhering, he knows when something's something's 152 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.919 up, something's wrong, right, And so like I was reading a Superman 153 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:37.879 book recently where he talks about not listening, like having to have like personal 154 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:43.320 time where he just like shuts out the world, like doesn't use a superhering, 155 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.759 so that if something is going on, like he doesn't hear it and 156 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.559 he doesn't go to help, and that's that's his choice to make. And 157 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:54.399 you know that's not retirement, but you could see like how that segs into 158 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:00.840 retirement where he just like turns it off for good. Right, So I 159 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:05.679 don't know, like people, people should be allowed to do what they want 160 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:11.080 to do ultimately, Like when when it comes to this, I whether you're 161 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:18.879 talking about fictional heroes or real life heroes, you know in some capacity you 162 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:28.240 have to honor the individual's wishes. Right, So I take a very you 163 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.879 retire when you when you tell us you want to retire stance on things, 164 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.200 right, Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think the sports 165 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.879 metaphor you brought up, I think in this one regards one area where I 166 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.519 don't think it necessarily applies to like superheroes, because if you're a sports star, 167 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:48.360 you're getting paid, Like there's a specific if I do this thing that 168 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.279 people want me to do, I will get these rewards and that money. 169 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:56.320 It's fame, it's you know, guest appearances, it's advertising, all these 170 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.399 kind of things. And yet we know Peter Parker could barely pay the rent 171 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.080 you though he's friendly neighborhood spider Man A second one of the factors that I 172 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.519 think is really important, and I think, especially with Superman, to me, 173 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:13.200 the question of are you the only one? Because I think one of 174 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.559 the things that I think becomes really important here on both sides of this is 175 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.440 if you're thinking about retiring because you just want to Like you said, at 176 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:26.159 the end of the day, I'm never going to say, like, you 177 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:30.679 have this power and so society should put a gun to your head and force 178 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:35.879 you to save them, Like that's not how they should work. But to 179 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:41.320 me, I think it's really with someone like Scott and Jean Gray. Yes, 180 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:46.159 they have unique powers as mutants that nobody else has, but there is 181 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:50.240 this whole bigger team that can step that they can step down and say, 182 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.759 someone else can step up and take my place Superman until we get to the 183 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.159 Justice League, and even under the Justice League doesn't have that, there's no 184 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.320 one who's anywhere close to his level of until you get like a Supergirl come 185 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.879 along or you know, his clones or his children or whatever. So you 186 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:07.399 see, yeah, what what factor do you think it has in terms of 187 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.639 whether or not someone else can take their place for me? Like again, 188 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:18.879 like for me personally, like no factor, because I think that to something 189 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.000 like Superman being that extreme example, Like it's so funny. In a lot 190 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:31.720 of Justice League stuff, there will be like this thing where some call it 191 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:37.600 minor. Crime is happening, and you know, like Batman and the Flash 192 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.600 or on the scene and they're like trying to stop a bank robber, right 193 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.840 right, that's fairly minor in the Justice League scheme of things, and they're 194 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.879 like where Superman, It's like, oh, there was like a volcano erupted 195 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:56.960 halfway across the world. He's helping that, right, So so there's that 196 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:01.440 aspect of it where yeah, like we only Superman can deal with the volcano, 197 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:03.759 right, So, like it's up to us to deal with these bank 198 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:09.159 robbers. And if if Superman retires, what happens with the volcano? I 199 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:16.200 don't know, Like, but I don't know. It's it's too much to 200 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.440 me. That's too much to put on Superman has too much to put on 201 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:28.360 anyone. But because of this conceit in the storytelling, when a hero retires, 202 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:35.879 it is often because of some kind of catastrophic event, either like like 203 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.759 something with their body, right, like they lose their powers is a common 204 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:48.919 trope, an injury like that has happened, or a loss like the personal 205 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:52.960 loss, you know, like super Lowest Lane dies and Superman like gets depressed 206 00:15:54.039 --> 00:16:02.879 understandably and like vies off into space. Yeah, and is gone and yeah, 207 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:08.799 I mean that that is a way to move that narrative into the retirement 208 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:15.639 narrative. I hate it because I think these these people, these heroes, 209 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.600 should just be allowed to say, like I don't want to do this anymore. 210 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.200 But yeah, that's that's really not how it works unfortunately. Yeah. 211 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.039 Well, I think in some ways that flip side to me where this question 212 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.159 is there someone else there? Because I think you're right, like, even 213 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.639 if there isn't someone else to just to deal with a volcano, like I 214 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:40.799 don't, there is an extent to which, and I think some of the 215 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:45.600 Superman stories might have explored this of when you have that one heroic figure who 216 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:51.399 will always come to the rescue, does that stop other people from remembering how 217 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:56.000 they can help themselves? You know? And think exactly To me though, 218 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.799 the most important part of the is there someone else to take your side? 219 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.359 Is on more of that other side of when should someone recognize that they need 220 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.680 to step down? Well, let me let me just if I if I 221 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:15.519 may, regarding like can anyone else step up? Right? Like one of 222 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.799 my favorite scenes in the first Avengers movie in the Battle of New York, 223 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:29.920 when Captain America is directing some New York police officers to help people, and 224 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.920 it's like, go to like evacuate those people from that building, like make 225 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:38.200 sure like this road is clear of any danger. And it is normal, 226 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:45.000 you know, unpowered people helping other people, doing what they can, even 227 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.319 though like in front of them is you know, the Marvel's version of a 228 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.480 god. You know, superhero is like fighting the aliens, but it's like 229 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:59.920 what can we normal people do? And showing scenes like that in superhero media, 230 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.039 I think carries a lot of weight and a lot of power because you 231 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.519 know, even though we want to enjoy these stories and watch the superhero fights, 232 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.799 we also want to feel like we can not necessarily be a hero, 233 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:21.279 but step up and contribute when something bad happens. And that's important very much 234 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:26.799 so. In Captain America Winter Soldier, they're just the non powered humans who 235 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.960 are in the control centers of the Truskellions, and you know they don't want 236 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:36.640 to go along with what Hydra is saying. V for Vendetta one of my 237 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:41.440 favorite movies. I often talk about how the most important thing that V does 238 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:47.400 is inspire the normal people to rise up and tip back the other direction that 239 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:49.480 I was going to go with. His whole question of you know, is 240 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.119 someone else ready to step up? Is that I think one of the things 241 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.119 that makes it harder for a lot of people to step down is ego. 242 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.599 And I don't mean like I think we some and say ego in a very 243 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.240 negative way. I don't just mean like, oh, they're they're conceded, 244 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.960 they're arrogant. But I think in order to be a hero, like you 245 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:12.400 often start by convincing yourself I'm the only one who can do this, so 246 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.680 I have to do it, and then it's very hard to let go of 247 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:22.039 it. And I'll tell my heartal story when I was when I went to 248 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.119 grad school. I went to grad school to become a pastor, but specifically 249 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.160 in a like you know, social justice, very focused way, and that's 250 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:33.519 what the school is all about. And on the opening day that you know, 251 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:40.480 on the opening day, commencements and all that, the dean of the 252 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:42.880 school got up and he said, look, all of you are here because 253 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:47.799 you want to make the world a better place, and all of you are 254 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.240 here because you think that you need to help make the world a better place. 255 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.519 Please take a look to the students, to your right, and the 256 00:19:53.519 --> 00:20:00.119 students your left. And then he said, each of those people wants to 257 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.359 do the same thing you do, and they're gonna be just as good at 258 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:08.319 it, so it's okay to sometimes take a break. And I was twenty 259 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.799 four. I was ready to go, you know, fix the world. 260 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.640 I was utterly convinced of my own ability to do this. I had a 261 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:18.359 lot to learn. And that hit me hard because part of me was like, 262 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.240 no, like I have it. Not that I'm necessarily better, but 263 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.000 I have a unique talent that no one else does. I'm sure all these 264 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.519 people do, but the world needs me specifically, and the idea that someone 265 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.640 else could take my place just was unthinkable to me. I mean until you 266 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.440 said that, and it really challenged me. And I was like, oh, 267 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:37.640 okay, I'm like, I don't want to say that I've ignored the 268 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.880 guy. I completely listen to him. But I think that that has to 269 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.160 be even more so true here when you know you have been at one point 270 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:49.680 told you're the only one we need you to do this, and then later 271 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.359 people realize, okay, maybe actually just want us can step up. So 272 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:56.720 yeah, I just think it's a very important part in the whole question of 273 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:02.000 like when can you step down? Some part is also being able to can 274 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.440 you let go of the thought like can everyone may? Or is maybe this 275 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:10.680 is about just the same question from two to directions. The first part is 276 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.440 can everyone else accept that they don't need you? And the second is can 277 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:19.480 you accept that they don't need you? Yeah, this is why for me, 278 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:26.680 like the sports metaphor speaks so much. My favorite basketball player of all 279 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:33.079 time is Tim Duncan. He was a great power forward for the San Antonio 280 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.400 Spurs. I pulled up a stat page. He was a two time MVP 281 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:45.160 back in the early two thousands and won multiple championships with the Spurs and at 282 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.599 the end of his career. Towards the end of his career, the Spurs 283 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.559 got some younger players Tony Parker Mount and Jenobli Kawhi Leonard I believe was also 284 00:21:53.640 --> 00:22:02.359 overlapped, and Tim Duncan accepted a lesser role in the offense, Like he 285 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.920 got the ball less, he shot less, he set more screens. You 286 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:11.599 know, he was helping his teammates rather than being the focal point because you 287 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.160 know, he had lost a step, he was older, and he I 288 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.359 think they won another championship like in one of his final seasons. I'm looking 289 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:23.440 I'm looking at him like he's he scored eight eight point six points a game 290 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.119 in his final season before he retired, and this is a man like that's 291 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.359 the only season in his career where he scored less than ten points a game. 292 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.319 And it was an intentional choice by him, and you know, the 293 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:41.839 coach Popovich and the team to do that and and structure their offense differently than 294 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.200 it had been in the past with Tim Duncan as the center centerpiece, and 295 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:49.400 that that selfishness, Like, that's why I admire him, Like he was 296 00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:53.720 always that kind of player and had that kind of team first mindset. And 297 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.000 that that to me when I thought of this topic of like how do you, 298 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.279 you know, not just retire, but also ramp down your role potentially 299 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:10.920 because you don't have the skills and the tools that you used to. And 300 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.920 that's actually a great point that I haven't really discussed until now, that it's 301 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.079 not a binary. It's not either you're out there fighting volcanoes and bank robbers 302 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:26.400 every single day or you're at home with Lois Lane ignoring everything. There's definitely 303 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.279 this middle ground. Can you take a reduced role and I want to talk 304 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:32.759 about how that plays out in some of the superhero stories, but I also 305 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:37.039 have my own sports story about this. I'm a huge baseball fan as an 306 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.000 ou, and the team that I grew up watching and so will always be 307 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.200 my favorite is the mid eighties New York Mets, who won the World championship 308 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.119 in eighty six and probably could have wanted a couple more years, but had 309 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:53.680 some very well known drug problems and other other problems, which a very chaotic 310 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:59.119 mix of players, as well as some bad general manager issues and all sorts 311 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.000 of stuff like that. And I also really love baseball simulation computer games, 312 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.000 where you know, you get to make the decision of like when you put 313 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:08.160 in this pitcher, you know, when do you pinch hit? All these 314 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.799 things, I love them, and i'm playing with them right now, and 315 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:18.720 I'm playing a mid eighties New York Mets team. But I'm realizing that there's 316 00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:22.480 one player who the computer has no idea how valuable he is, and that's 317 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.359 Rusty Stob. Is that a real player? Yep, that's a real player. 318 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.839 As he was, he was a rather large fellow. He was a 319 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.079 redheaded Maybe that's also part of why I love him. He played Montreal for 320 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:40.079 many years, was known as Legrand Orange, and you know, he was 321 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.359 never going to be a Hall of Famer, but he had a solid career. 322 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.759 He was a good hitter. Oh yeah, twenty three year career. 323 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.839 Wow. Yeah. He was around for a long time, and by the 324 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.400 time he got to the Mets, he was almost never going to be a 325 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.960 starter. He was mostly a you know, late inning skill in in the 326 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.839 outfield and a lot of times a pinch hitter. And he was a pretty 327 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.759 good pinch hitter, but far and away. And I read a lot of 328 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.440 books by Mets players and also a lot of journalism about them. One thing 329 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:12.960 that they all constantly say is that as chaotic as we were, we would 330 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:18.119 have utterly fallen apart if it wasn't for Rusty, because he was this older, 331 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:22.839 experienced player who kind of like you're saying with Tim Duncan, but even 332 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:27.119 more so, he's playing even less as a player on the bench, was 333 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.480 constantly talking to players about like, Okay, well I'm seeing the pitcher do 334 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:33.519 this kind of thing, so you should have just this way, or hey, 335 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.559 I'm noticing this thing in your in your hitting stance. You should change 336 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.480 this, or just Hey, even going up partying the last three nights, 337 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:42.680 and I can see it affecting you, like, you know, he was 338 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:48.400 kind of like that uncle or you know that father figure. Yes, very 339 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.640 much so, and no statistics are ever going to show it. And he 340 00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.839 didn't get to do what he used to do. But he was a player, 341 00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:57.960 you know, like a player coach. I think he's a perfectly describe 342 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.839 it, and was a central parts and the Mets winning their World series in 343 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:07.680 ways it will never be recognized in the statistics books, and that couldn't have 344 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:08.880 happened unless, as you said, he was willing to say, you know 345 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.079 what, I would hurt the team if I was a starting player, so 346 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:15.480 I could retire, but also I could take this reduced role and then do 347 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:21.920 something else. So let's now actually bring it back to some of the other 348 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:26.440 shows, because one of the examples that I've been thinking about most is as 349 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.359 a character who retired, but I realized, actually doesn't he does. Exactly 350 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:36.240 what we're talking about is Batman and Batman Beyond. Do you know the story? 351 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.319 Do you know that show? Well? Yeah, absolutely so. Do 352 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:41.880 you want you want to give us like a little introduction to like why does 353 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:48.160 the Batman decides to change his role in what happens there. I actually don't 354 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:52.559 know why. I mean, he's old, okay, like Batman. Batman 355 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.880 Beyond takes place in like I don't know, twenty fifty to twenty sixty something 356 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.200 like that, like quote unquote the future. Yeah, it's hoosially about like 357 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:04.240 thirty to forty years after Batman the Ni minute series. It's not much in 358 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:08.799 that continuity. Kevin Conroy so loving the voice of Batman. So I think 359 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:11.880 it's like the twenty twenties, but because it's like forty years in the future 360 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:18.440 from the nineteen eighties, nineties, byably the twenty thirties. But he's still 361 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.039 trying to fight. Yeah, his physical skills had deteriorated. He's not able 362 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.519 to do the things he needs to do anymore. And he gets into a 363 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.799 fight and winds up picking up a gun because it's the only way he can 364 00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.119 get out of a difficult situation. Like not his gun, but there's a 365 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.839 gun lying around, and he picks it up and uses it. I don't 366 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.799 think he fires it, but he picks it up in order to like threaten 367 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.799 the bad guy so that he can like you know, take them down. 368 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.559 Or whatever, and it horrifies him because you know, he's gotten that his 369 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.519 whole ideal is always I don't want to use guns. I will never use 370 00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.720 guns, and the fact that he was no longer able to do it without 371 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:57.519 picking up a gun makes him realize, wait, I can't do this anymore. 372 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.759 And then at the same time, there's this other character who comes along 373 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.440 who is able to who is able to do all the physical things Batman used 374 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:14.799 to do, and so he becomes Batman and Bruce Wayne becomes the man in 375 00:28:14.839 --> 00:28:18.200 the chair. Basically he's still also called Batman, but he's the person sitting 376 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.160 at home on the computer directing the new Batman, telling him what to do, 377 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.319 telling him, okay, there's like an empty room this way, you 378 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.319 know, this kind of thing during the research. It's a phenomenal show. 379 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.880 I think it's one of my favorite Batman shows. But it's really about this 380 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.839 idea that, like a couple of our listeners when I asked about this topic, 381 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:41.960 wrote in suggesting people like Zoro and the dread pirate Roberts, where the 382 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.599 whole thing is based on the idea that someday you'll retire and you'll not only 383 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:48.599 pass it on to someone else, but you'll train them to take your place. 384 00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.319 And this feels very much like that. It feels like they're kind of 385 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.839 establish saying that, like Batman doesn't have to be one person, and any 386 00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:57.960 one person can step down and say, yeah, I'm no longer going to 387 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:07.559 be Batman. Yeah, do you know about You've seen the Justice League epilogue 388 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:15.079 to that. Yes, yeah, I think I don't like that. That's 389 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.039 fair. Yeah, I won't spoil it, but yeah, we've actually done 390 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:22.319 a couple of episodes about that, and that might actually, you know what, 391 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.039 I think that's gonna be our bonus content today for members. We'll talk 392 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:26.680 more about that. Wait, no, I haven't seen it in too long. 393 00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.920 We're not going to do that. I'll take it, hold on out. 394 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:34.559 Yeah, I can see that. Paul and actually did a whole episode 395 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.759 about that that. I'll see how I can put in the show notes. 396 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:38.440 It's from a while ago. I'm not sure I can find it, but 397 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:44.119 I will definitely. Definitely. You can probably search for it and need to 398 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.640 take a lot more time. Yeah, Paul and I actually did a whole 399 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.359 episode about that. Folks can definitely find it. It's hurching for Batman beyond 400 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:52.880 but also, yeah, Rik and I you know, I should talk about 401 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.160 that at some other point. I haven't seen it long enough. I don't 402 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:59.920 remember the details, but there's a lot to discuss there. So when you 403 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.240 you mentioned the man in the Chair, I had already been thinking that, 404 00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:10.319 And to me, one of the most important examples of a like not a 405 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:14.799 retirement but a transition in role was, in fact, in my opinion, 406 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:19.440 the original person in the chair, Barbara Gordon, Oracle, that girl to 407 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.359 Oracle. You know, she was shot by the Joker and the killing Joke 408 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:30.559 and paralyzed and could like would have legitimately been okay to retire from superheroing at 409 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:37.319 that point, right, she chose to stay on and became the character Oracle, 410 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.359 who is like the archetype of the computer genius, who's like directing the 411 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.839 traffic and on the commns with all the other heroes of the Bad Family, 412 00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:51.799 and like not again, like I'm pretty sure like that she set the archetype 413 00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.440 or at least was like the most popular version that led to a lot of 414 00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:03.000 other similar characters like her. And that that's again, like she could have 415 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:07.839 retired, but she chose. I'm not I'm not even gonna say, like 416 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:12.759 diministral, it's a different role that was essential and needed at the time because 417 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:18.640 we, like as a society was also transforming into a digital society, so 418 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:25.240 it was a good way to incorporate that into the story as well. Yeah, 419 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.319 I think that's so true. And I'll say not every Oracle episode or 420 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.519 issue was perfectly done by any means, but overall, I felt the character 421 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.680 was also a huge step for disability representation in a way that I love because 422 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.799 it's exactly that it's and you know, there's a joke that a lot of 423 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.000 people use that's kind of I think there's a lot of truth too. It's 424 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:51.440 not one hundred percent, but it's that all of us are only temporarily sorry, 425 00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:57.400 all of us are currently It's that all of us are temporarily able bodied, 426 00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:02.720 meaning that almost might be able bodied our entire lives, but the overwhelming 427 00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:07.119 majority of people are going to become less physically able, and you know, 428 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.319 maybe to a point of that you consider it disabled. I'm not going to 429 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.759 get into like where the line is by any means or if they're even in 430 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.759 a line, but you know, many of us are not going to have 431 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:21.680 the abilities that we have at a later point in our life, and so 432 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:23.279 her being able to and and for her it's not because of aging as he 433 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:28.839 said, it's because of a traumatic uh wound that she receives. And so 434 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.640 for her to say, Okay, I no longer have the abilities to do 435 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:35.920 the things they used to, but I still have these abilities and I can 436 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.400 do other things. To me, that's again a great example of what we're 437 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.079 talking about, you know, the ability to kind of recognize like, hey, 438 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.160 I can't do the job anymore, but I can still do something else. 439 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:50.319 But also, as you said, if like, you know, a 440 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:52.720 year later, she was like, you know what, I'm still having nightmares 441 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.920 about when Joker shot me, or just I met someone cute and I want 442 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.079 to focus on them or you know whatever, or just want to go hike 443 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:01.039 in them mount or not get well. Hi, yeah you wrote you just 444 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.799 watch Wheel her high roots j wants to do any of those things. That's 445 00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:07.960 probably good. It doesn't have to because of the trauma. Mm hmm. 446 00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:15.359 And yeah, like she definitely sets out the Batman Beyond version of Bruce Wayne. 447 00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:22.000 She's in that story too, right, she becomes the police commissioner, 448 00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.160 doesn't she in that future? Oh dear yeah, she had that is very 449 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:34.720 antagonistic, kind of a fun three way dynamic between her Uh, Bruce, 450 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:37.000 Wayne, and Tony. I believe the name of the person who takes over 451 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.759 UH with you know, both of them being kind of parental figures to women 452 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:49.880 calling him in different directions. So I think the Batman Batman is Terry McGinnis, 453 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:54.480 Terry mcgus, sorry, not Tony is Terry, thank you. So 454 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:59.920 I feel like the two big questions we started with were pretty much on solid 455 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.240 agreement that a hero should be able to retire whenever they want to retire. 456 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:07.519 That, like padies do, great power comes with great responsibility or heart of 457 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.880 the responsibility is also to yourself and to your family, and that you have 458 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.519 to figure out how to you know, superheroes get work life balance just like 459 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.679 anybody else. And well, I think there's some truth to the idea of 460 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.599 sometimes like there is this existential threat or whatever, and if you don't step 461 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.480 up, maybe no one else will. But also in a lot of times, 462 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:29.119 if you don't step up, someone else might you might even know or 463 00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:32.400 how can you train that person? So let's talk to the other side of 464 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.840 when maybe so let's turn to the other side of when the hero should be 465 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:44.079 stepping down but aren't necessarily wanting to just in general, like why do you 466 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.400 think this would happen? Like if a hero wants to put their life at 467 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:49.840 risk even if they're not as good at it as they used to be, 468 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:57.320 why is that a problem? Okay, what do you have an example of 469 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:05.800 this? Because again, like it's we're at the whims of the storyteller, 470 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.320 and it's like why why would they be telling the story? I guess is 471 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:15.239 my question? Right? And when when have they done so? Because like 472 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.400 I struggled to think of a story like this the Batman beyond thing, like 473 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:25.199 he's so old in that right, Like it's obvious to everyone that he should 474 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:32.639 not be Batman. But where's kind of our creaky like midlife crisis, like 475 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:38.079 feeling a little creak in the back? Bruce Wayne, We got a little 476 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:43.400 we got an interesting bit of this in a Spider Man what was the No 477 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:47.119 Way Home? Right when we get the Toby Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spider Man 478 00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:52.079 came in and they were talking to each other about like, yeah, like 479 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.599 my back's bothering me now, like I can't quite do it, like yep, 480 00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.400 and I guess from Spider Verse, Peter B. Parker is kind of 481 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:09.400 like he's older and also becomes a father yep, although he's still superheroing as 482 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:15.079 a as a dad, right, But I think like that's kind of a 483 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:21.159 character maybe that is like maybe it's time to hang like right at that point 484 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:23.880 where it's like you should start thinking about hanging it up, right, is 485 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:28.119 like the middle aged Spider Man for me. I think one of the examples 486 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.440 that comes to mind is Professor X in the movie Logan, where he is 487 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:37.159 getting older and some you know, some of the mental issues that can set 488 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:42.840 in for people. And I don't know what the lines are between just aging 489 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.079 and mental fading versus dementia versus like other things. I don't want to use 490 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.920 medical terms, but just for many people, mental facilities can start to fade. 491 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.039 And in Professor X's case, not only does it make him less able 492 00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:58.679 to help, but he calls his harm and there are times where he can't 493 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:01.119 control his powers anymore, and and lots of people die in that movie. 494 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:04.800 To me, that's kind of one of the most and and part of the 495 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.480 movie is him still wanting to help and Logan having to help him understand, 496 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:12.880 like you can't do this anymore. So I think that's one of my first 497 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:17.760 examples. I don't think many other examples come up in like MCU and DC 498 00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.599 stuff, because yeah, they don't want to retire that hero. But I 499 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:27.639 like, well, like I say, I do think that in a lot 500 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:36.440 of often the origin story of our original of our hero is often about the 501 00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:42.239 older person having to realize that they need to step down and so that because 502 00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.039 that's why I think we see it there. But also you feel like, 503 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:49.880 oh god, I'm gonna well, I was gonna say, I like what's 504 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:53.960 going on in the MCU because they are superhero stories, but they have to 505 00:37:54.079 --> 00:38:00.039 deal with the reality of the age of the actors portraying them right and them 506 00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:06.159 aging out of this range where it's realistic for them to be playing this hero 507 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.320 or even like for them to be doing the physicality of some of the stunts. 508 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:17.039 Perhaps Chris Evans has definitely commented publicly about not wanting to keep his body 509 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:22.679 in this ridiculous shape, like the superhero physique shape that is forced upon him 510 00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:28.119 by media, and that is absolutely like his right to not do that anymore. 511 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:32.679 I think in general, the you know, like women have been dealing 512 00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:37.000 with this for a lot longer, like the supermodel body. But men now, 513 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:42.639 like we're getting more stories of the lengths that they go to to have, 514 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.039 like the six packs and the pecks and stuff, and they shouldn't be 515 00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:51.559 forced to do that just because we want eye candy, Like we can have 516 00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:57.519 like realistic, strong looking bodies. In myself, there's some action star from 517 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.519 the nineties. I can't remember who it was, positive off, I'm not 518 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:01.679 sure. Actually, I don't think it's him, but who you know, 519 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:06.760 was known for like being you know, very muscled in these movies and then 520 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.079 kind of just stopped. And I remember an interview with him where someone asked 521 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.719 him why. It's like, you know what, I remember how much I 522 00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:17.000 love cheeseburgers, and I just wanted to eat what I wanted to eat instead 523 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:22.800 of having this like very exacting diet that he used to have. And yeah, 524 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:25.960 I think that that that that's another great example, and I think that 525 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.000 I think with me though, in terms of like we're talking about the harm 526 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:32.599 that folks can do, I think Batman's cake, Batman's case, and Batman 527 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:38.239 beyond it's a real question of you know, he's feeling like he can't hold 528 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:43.320 his own personal values anymore. In some of the other cases I've seen, 529 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:45.320 I think some of the other factors that come up is like are you actually 530 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:51.599 doing harm instead of helping? Like are you not are you a are you 531 00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.039 just not able to do the job in a way that like, because you're 532 00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.360 the one trying to do it, it's not going to get done. And 533 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.360 that's really a problem. But also I keep thinking about the question of younger 534 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.280 generations, you know, of when older people stay in those roles for so 535 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.199 long, how much does it prevent the next generation from actually being able to 536 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:13.840 take over from them when they're when they're ready to step down or just get 537 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:19.719 killed or whatever it is. Yeah, I mean this is the This is 538 00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:23.760 important like for storytelling, but also for like setting an example for real people. 539 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:30.239 Right because again, like the MCU right now is in this transition phase 540 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:37.199 of the original seven six like are gone and we had endgame and they all 541 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:43.199 you know, died, retired, et cetera. And now in theory like 542 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.320 we should be getting the new Avengers or the Young Avengers whatever, like their 543 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.960 configuration is going to be. And it's like it's kind of taken a while 544 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:58.440 to see where this is all going, but it's so important because a like, 545 00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:00.559 yes, the real life actors are too old to keep doing this, 546 00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:07.239 but for the story as well, like we want these new characters and these 547 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:12.599 new heroes to have a chance to do their thing, and the actors too, 548 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:20.480 like iman Volani is a treasure, as miss Marvel, and yeah, 549 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:27.360 I and and it sets a real life example for people to to to make 550 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:37.119 this transition, right, to have Steve Rodgers past the shield literally to Falcon 551 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.920 Yeah, yeah, I think it's so true. And I think that, 552 00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:49.400 oh I can't say that I remember this moly well because it was, as 553 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:52.599 the own actor has pointed out, very very bad. But I think it's 554 00:41:52.679 --> 00:42:00.039 the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern where huh no, it's not that it's uh I 555 00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:01.719 start helped right in because like, this is a trope that I know that 556 00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:05.559 I have seen in some like not a Top of a super but a couple 557 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.440 of superhero movies where the movie starts with the hero not being able to do 558 00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.400 what he used to be able to do and that's why he reluctantly has to 559 00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.119 pass it on. I know in some of the Zoro movies this has definitely 560 00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:22.000 been the case I believe Nay Hopkins Indonio benderas one. At first, Anthony 561 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.679 Hopkins does not want to stop being Zoro, but he has to realize like 562 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:29.480 he's not able to do it anymore, and he's called harm so that means 563 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.400 he has to now trained the next one. Yeah great, I mean green 564 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.599 lantern rings are literally passed on. But in that one, in that story, 565 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:43.440 a Anser dies like he crash crash lands on Earth and dies, and 566 00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:47.320 that's how hal Jordan gets the ring. Right, How did John Stewart get 567 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:57.679 his h John's I think John Stewart his I don't know the early days of 568 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:02.639 like each of the lanterns. I believe like hal Jordan's ring goes to John 569 00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:08.280 Stewart, and it could be like when he quote unquote died or retired or 570 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:14.159 something. But for a while, like there was only one green lantern on 571 00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:21.360 Earth. Now like there's four or five fair but he used to be like 572 00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:28.440 a direct line of succession between them. Good well, I was gonna say, 573 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:32.280 the only one like I remember definitively is Kyle Rayner gets his ring because 574 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:37.199 hal Jordan becomes a villain, he becomes Parallax and like gan't that the last 575 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:42.599 Guardian is like you have to be the one to carry on the legacy of 576 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:46.320 green lanterns, so that that one, I know is not specifically Hal Jordan's 577 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:52.440 ring. Yeah, makes sense. I also think there's an example. We've 578 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:57.079 mostly been talking about physical infirmity, but I think there's also lots of examples 579 00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:00.079 of where someone realizes that they're now starting to do this for the wrong reason, 580 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.039 you know, where it's actually that instead of trying to fight for good, 581 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.079 they're now trying to like get vengeance on the bad. And I think 582 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.719 that's in the Actually, one of the best examples of a lot of these 583 00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.480 is the TV show Titans. The Teen Titans have been a very popular TV 584 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:20.400 show, and I think that but that's more about training them to be fight 585 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:28.360 alongside the adult versions the TV show Titans, which is at times incredibly cheesy 586 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.480 and sometimes has awful storytelling, but at times it's really really brilliant. It 587 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:37.079 has great acting. It's all about like those teen Titans now as adults, 588 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.039 and they're all in the young twenties, and it was a CW show, 589 00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:42.920 so of course they're all dating each other, and they're all wearing incredible outfits 590 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:47.800 and they all you know, the things like that, but also a lot 591 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.920 of what it's about. Like in that one, the character of Batman is 592 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.159 having trouble recognizing that he should hang it up, and it's part of why 593 00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:02.440 Dick Grayson has really kind of drawn away from him. There's another character who 594 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:07.480 I think is Green Arrow, but I'm not sure who is recognizing that he 595 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:10.880 just actually is very distracted with his family life, but isn't willing to admit 596 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:14.840 that yet and isn't willing to say like, yeah, I'm not able to 597 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.679 do this anymore. And so like the younger Arrows are, I think there's 598 00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:22.920 two are chafing under that. So yeah, I think there's a lot of 599 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.159 stories there. But Riciano, for this realird question, you actually went to 600 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:30.639 sports again, say more like in case like Tim Duncan, like, yeah, 601 00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.440 it was great that he could take a different role. Other players retire, 602 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:36.199 But what's wrong with the player wanting to just play as long as they 603 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:42.280 want? I mean, what's I don't know if I can say wrong, 604 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:50.039 but it a player hanging on too long? Because there are resources right in 605 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.320 sports, yeah, there are. There's a certain number of roster spots you 606 00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:58.000 can have for players, and so if you devote one to this person, 607 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.199 like that's one fewer spots you have and playing time as well. Like especially, 608 00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:08.679 you see this a lot in basketball when the older player retire, like 609 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:14.920 is in their final season, but they were a superstar, right, like 610 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:20.119 a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant type. In their final season, they're 611 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:24.840 still Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. They still want to shoot like thirty times 612 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:30.920 a game, twenty times game. I don't know a lot because you mentioned 613 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:35.679 earlier the ego, right, it's hard to put that aside. I think 614 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.920 Tim Duncan, like that's why I admire him so much, is like it 615 00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:46.320 was such a different end of career trajectory to a lot of legitimate superstars when 616 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:52.880 they're in their decline phase in basketball, Like I think Lebron James right now, 617 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:55.519 we're seeing the end of his career. Like he got the scoring title, 618 00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.840 like the old times scoring title, and there's a question of like whether 619 00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:07.920 his pursuit of that and his need to keep scoring points at his age was 620 00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:13.840 a detriment to the team like winning, to development of the next generation of 621 00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.400 players, right, Like they're not getting as many looks like all the ball 622 00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:22.920 is constantly going to Lebron type the thing. But it's it's also a business 623 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:28.480 and fans, you know, want to see Lebron James, especially you know, 624 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.239 if it's his last season, like that is a legitimate thing that leads 625 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:35.159 to ticket sale bumps. It's like, hey, come, this is your 626 00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:40.960 last chance to see Lebron James. I wish I had taken the opportunity to 627 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.960 see Ichiro Suzuki in baseball when you were tired, before you're retired. I 628 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.599 never got a chance to see him play a live So if they had announced, 629 00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:52.280 like this is Echiro's final season, like I would have, you know 630 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:55.519 at the time, I should have tried to go see a game. Right. 631 00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:02.960 So it's a weird a balance between what the player wants, what the 632 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:07.559 franchise wants or needs, and what the fans want. It's it's not it's 633 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:12.320 it's not like a one answer fits all. Yeah, no, I think 634 00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:16.760 that's all really true. And I think that, like we've talked about this 635 00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:20.559 being ego, but again, I think it's not that we're necessarily talking about 636 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.360 people eating arrogant. I think it often comes from a very good place of 637 00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:29.320 you know, when earlier in your career as a superhero or a politician or 638 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:34.760 a crime or a sports star or anything. You know, it gets into 639 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.280 your head and everyone around you is telling you, we can't do this without 640 00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:42.320 you, we need you. And yeah, it's probably great. You probably 641 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.519 have a lot of personal interest in it, and you know, it feels 642 00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:46.639 great to be the winner. But like you know, as a hero, 643 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:51.920 you're also you are doing good for other people. And whether it's you know, 644 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.880 winning championships that just brings a lot of joy to your your fans, 645 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.039 or it's you know, like saving the world. And so I think that 646 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:04.159 like ego, I want to kind of more positive, but still like understanding 647 00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:07.480 why it is the problem word, because yeah, it's basically that idea of 648 00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:15.519 like I maybe it's it's ego combined with a very legitimate responsibility of I don't 649 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:22.239 want the world to fall apart, and up until now I have been the 650 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:28.079 one who had to save the world. So accepting the idea that not only 651 00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.079 can I not save the world anymore, but someone else could do it better 652 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:35.320 than me, it's a evigo. It's like a really it's a challenge to 653 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:37.119 yourself image, you know, Like I wonder how many of these heroes, 654 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:40.920 especially I know we had this happens in sports a lot and in other fields 655 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.400 as well. You know, your sense of self becomes I am the person 656 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:50.320 who saves this, I am the person who hits the game winning shot. 657 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.960 I am the person who fights the volcano. And so when you have to 658 00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.840 realize maybe someone else is better able to do that, it's really hard because 659 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:04.800 ask whoay am I instead? Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with 660 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:09.480 calling it ego, And whether you think of that positively or negatively, you 661 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:17.480 cannot have like this caliber of player without ego. Yeah, Like the thought 662 00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:22.360 process of I am the best, you know, I can beat this person 663 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:23.880 on the dribble or whatever, like I can hit a home run off this 664 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:29.400 picture. That is part of the psychology of sports. And if you don't 665 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.639 have that, like, there are so many talented players in my opinion, 666 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:37.239 that don't reach maybe the heights that they should because of psychology, because they 667 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:44.159 have self doubt and that leads to them not trying you know something or whatever. 668 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:49.639 So I think it's absolutely ego and it's fine, Like there can be 669 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.320 positives, there can be negatives. Yeah, And I want to throw out 670 00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:57.519 like the final thing, the final player for me that I thought of in 671 00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:04.480 all of this was John Elway. He was a quarterback for the Denver Broncos 672 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:08.280 and he at the end of his career. He went back to back Super 673 00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:14.119 Bowls with the Broncos and then retired after the second one. Yeah, and 674 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:17.000 he was like he was at the top of his game. Probably could have 675 00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:21.039 played, you know, a couple more seasons. Who knows, like how 676 00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.039 good he would have been. But he was like, that's it, Like 677 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:27.960 he doesn't get better than this. Yeah, And it's like there are some 678 00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:31.199 example of that where it's like a storybook moment and it's like, yeah, 679 00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:36.440 why don't we just call it here before we see that decline And maybe he 680 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.719 was already like feeling it, like physically or like just mental fatigue, was 681 00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:43.880 like why why I just want two Super Bowls? Like why would I want 682 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:46.039 to keep doing this? No? I think you're right, especially because I'm 683 00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:50.599 saying as a New York Jets fan, because my team keeps signing these people. 684 00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:54.480 You see examples like Brett Farv and I'm afraid Aaron Rodgers, but also 685 00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:58.639 a lot of others who don't get to that point and they keep trying and 686 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:02.039 they keep trying, and they get worse and worse. Joe Montana eventually had 687 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.480 Joe Montana. You know, I think it's an argument that he's the best 688 00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:07.840 quarterback of all time. He's certainly in the top three or top five. 689 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:09.440 However you want to do it. We're not sports casts. Don't write in 690 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:15.079 she's writing whatever you want. We're not a sports cast, but we could 691 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:16.519 be. You know, if I remember, like, he had to be 692 00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:20.000 benched eventually, and that was really a hard thing, in part because he 693 00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.800 was so popular with the fans again and he was such a big name. 694 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.920 And I think he did retire with some of the men of Grace, but 695 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:30.519 there definitely been some others who it's really hard for them to step aside and 696 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.159 to realize that it's not the time anymore. So and I have to be 697 00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:39.400 good. I do not blame let's see, I don't blame the players. 698 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:45.559 I think you can put some blame on organizations if they you know, maybe 699 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.119 like give too much money to a player, or the contract is too long, 700 00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:52.559 or you just like you know that they already have a viable replacement. 701 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.840 It's like, why are you delaying the promotion of the replacement. Type of 702 00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:02.440 thing. But for the player that themselves again like similar to the hero thing, 703 00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:07.480 Like they can choose when to retire, they should be allowed to choose, 704 00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:12.079 you know, yeah, when they retire. It's like if they want 705 00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:15.480 to keep playing, they should be allowed to as long as they are physically 706 00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:22.440 able. I mean, there was a pitcher named Jamie Moyer who pitched, 707 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:28.000 i want to say, until he was like forty nine his final season, 708 00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:32.239 and he didn't he didn't have it in the traditional sense, like his quote 709 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:37.239 unquote fastball was like eighty one miles per hour when like pitchers are throwing ninety 710 00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:42.559 to one hundred, right, But he was he had that smarts, the 711 00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:47.360 wily like control pitcher. And again, like he could have retired any any 712 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:52.599 time, like after like thirty five, it would have been fine. But 713 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:58.039 he loved it and he was still effective enough for what he was doing. 714 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:02.199 And why why like to it's a lovely story. I love seeing stats for 715 00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:06.360 him of like the oldest player to do ex oldest player to do. Why? 716 00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:10.159 Yeah, it's just story, especially because it kind of underlines you know, 717 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.639 if you throw eighty mile an hour ball, If you throw the ball 718 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.039 at eighty miles an hour, most of the time, you're damaging your arm 719 00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:20.639 at a much slower rate than if you're trying to throw a nine hundred miles 720 00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:23.199 an hour every single time. Yeah. But also I think that maybe brings 721 00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:28.159 up the last good point here, which is the question of who you're accountable 722 00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:31.760 and who is going to tell you the hard truth, Because in a situation 723 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.599 like what we're talking about here, I think I agree with you in part 724 00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:39.199 because, like I said, like I don't blame Brett Fard and Aaron Rodgers 725 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:43.840 for taking the money from the idiotic gms that my team has. I blame 726 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.760 the GM for continuing to give them the money. And who knows, maybe 727 00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:47.719 Aaron Rodgers going to carry on my team to a Super Bowl and I'll be 728 00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.960 incroumbly grumpy about it. Well, I'll love it because my team has never 729 00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:54.760 won a Super Bowl in my lifetime. What but again, it's a business 730 00:54:54.840 --> 00:55:00.360 decision too, And then part of their calculus is no doubt we can sells, 731 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:05.239 you know, some percentage more tickets because people will want to come to 732 00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.840 see this player. Well, and I guess what, I yeah, yeah, 733 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:10.639 that's that's totally true. And you know it's like Jersey sales or whatever. 734 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:15.400 You know, Pete Rose declined a lot in his later years, but 735 00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:17.079 people wanted to go see, like when is he gonna break the hit record? 736 00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:20.119 Attack Cob and then what's gonna happen next, and you know, and 737 00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:22.559 he was a player manager and all this kind of stuff. But what I'm 738 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:27.639 getting in here is that in the most of the fields we're talking about in 739 00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:31.559 our own world, not all there's someone else that person. There's someone else 740 00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:35.599 who gets to make the decision or at least strongly encourage them to say, 741 00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:39.519 Hey, you know you were great Joe Montana, but Steve Young is here. 742 00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:42.800 I mean, you just don't have the skills you did five years ago, 743 00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:47.000 so we're not going to start you today. And I think that you 744 00:55:47.079 --> 00:55:52.880 know who's going to say that Superman in the early in the early Superman stories, 745 00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:57.039 no one. Maybe Lowis Lane in later stories though, Batman a wonder 746 00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.280 Woman and the others who are kind of like on actually the Sumeruns about example, 747 00:56:00.280 --> 00:56:01.519 because I think would have listened to Shremie also, and Lowess Lane about 748 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:07.599 that too. But you know, I think it's why superhero teams, I 749 00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:10.280 think are so essential. It's why superhero is feeling like there's others they listen 750 00:56:10.360 --> 00:56:14.840 to because then there's someone who can who can point out that hard truth to 751 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:16.840 them. You know, I think we see in our own world that when 752 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:22.159 you just kind of how many like celebrities have put out, you know, 753 00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:25.880 sports stars have put out these like appallingly bad rap videos or something like that, 754 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:29.840 because everyone around them is just gonna say, oh, you're awesome. 755 00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:34.719 You're awesome. Everything you do is awesome. And I say this as you 756 00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:37.239 know, my favorite team in the world put out let's Go Mets, which 757 00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:42.920 is god awful. But yeah, I I come to that point all the 758 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.239 time. But I think with this especially that question of you know, just 759 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:52.599 having other people you're accountable to both that you can say having other people you 760 00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.519 are accountable and having that go both ways, so that Wolf Reeen should be 761 00:56:55.559 --> 00:57:00.239 able to say Scott and Gene will miss you, Gene especially, but yeah, 762 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:02.800 go take care of your baby. I get it, and also that 763 00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:07.599 the people can say, hey, professor X, hey whoever it is, 764 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:09.880 you've done a great job, but it's time for you to step down and 765 00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:15.079 let someone else do it. I mean, Wolverine is an interesting one. 766 00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:21.599 Let's talk about that real quick, because we all thought Logan was the final 767 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:25.960 like Hugh Jackman Wolverine. And now we are weeks away from Deadpool and Wolverine 768 00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:31.800 coming out prominently featuring Hugh Jackman as Wolverine a variant of some you know, 769 00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:38.079 weird timey wimy stuff. Yeah, and now there are questions and discussions of 770 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:44.800 should the MCU just cast Hugh Jackman as Wolverine like for the next ten more 771 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:49.159 years because people think he still has it So I don't know, Like, 772 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:52.079 if he wants to do it, let him do it. I think like 773 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:57.519 they should bring someone else in, someone new in. But it's like, 774 00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:02.119 ultimately his decision to make it's Marvel student is decision to make in whatever direction 775 00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:06.719 they go, and it is fine. I haven't seen any of the previews 776 00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.840 with trailers, but my sense is just from a little bit of known and 777 00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:14.639 I also want to know about Deadpool. This is kind of Hugh Jackman's Oracle 778 00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.599 days. Not that he's physically unable to do the fighting of Wolverine anymore, 779 00:58:19.239 --> 00:58:24.480 but that like he's not coming in to play the super serious Wolverine that he 780 00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:29.400 did such an incredible job of. He's coming in to flirt with Ryan Reynolds 781 00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:31.559 and to create as much fan fiction as he possibly can, and to have 782 00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:37.719 fun being kind of almost a parody of his own character, as everything in 783 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.320 Deadpool has always been so. But yeah, I think it's interesting that, 784 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:46.760 yeah, he has come back in a different way. And also I want 785 00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:52.800 to go back to Jamie Moyer. He did pitch his final season he was 786 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:58.360 forty nine, because wow, two years prior to that he had Soldier, 787 00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:02.519 he had Tommy John shoulder surgery, So I believe he is also the oldest 788 00:59:02.599 --> 00:59:08.559 player to have Tommy John surgery and then pitch again. Wow. Just an 789 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:14.199 unbelievable career. And there's like, statistically there's no way he's a Hall of 790 00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:19.000 Famer. Unfortunately, like he didn't get voted in. But you know, 791 00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:22.039 people talk about the Hall of very Good. There should be some kind of 792 00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:28.000 hall to honor him and his story in the game. And I just I 793 00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:35.159 love him so much. Oh I'm in quick math. Yeah, No, 794 00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:37.679 I think it's great. The Mets in the UH for a couple of years 795 00:59:38.679 --> 00:59:43.800 in the two thousands had a pinch heator again, Julio Franco, who also 796 00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:46.000 played ahead for nine and he was just amazing. It was just so much 797 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:52.000 fun watching that It's one thing I'll say about baseball. One reason I love 798 00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:57.760 it is, you know, I could work all my life on my basketball 799 00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:00.159 skills, as I think it was I remember who said this, But you 800 01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:05.199 can't teach tall. You know, I'm never gonna be big enough or athletic 801 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.639 enough to be a basketball player or a football player. But when when, 802 01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:14.840 oh god, I can't remember his name, the fat met who He was 803 01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:20.000 on the Indians for a long time, and then it pitched Solo Alogne when 804 01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:25.039 Bartolo Cologne stepped up and for the Mets. I was in my thirties. 805 01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:30.159 He was a couple of years and I was getting weight already. I didn't 806 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:35.079 feel great about my body. Bartola Cologne was older than me and was significantly 807 01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:37.559 heavier than me, and like you could see his beer gut like every time 808 01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:40.280 he pitched. And yet he was an amazing pitcher. And in one of 809 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:45.199 like his last season, he hit his first home run ever as a pitcher 810 01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:49.639 while he's batting, and it was just such a great moment. So Bartola 811 01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:57.079 Cologne retired after twenty eighteen at the age of forty five. So he also 812 01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:02.559 has like a long, yeah, long career, and he's is he like 813 01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:07.000 a he's like a borderline Hall of Famer. I would say to yeah, 814 01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:12.239 two hundred and forty seven career wins. Yes, when is see on the 815 01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:15.400 ballot, if you're retiring two that fifteen, you should be up because I 816 01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:19.000 think it's five years, so you should have been eighteen. So was he 817 01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:22.280 on the ballot last year? All right, I think we're now wanted pretty 818 01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:25.639 far from the point. So we're gonna have a bonus section where Riekey and 819 01:01:25.679 --> 01:01:29.719 I were gonna talk about baseball a little bit more. I think probably if 820 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:32.920 you love that great, If not, we'll have better pottage again. If 821 01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:37.039 you love that great, If you're not right in with other ideas want us 822 01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:39.480 to have for bonus content. A lot of times we have really good ones 823 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:44.000 sometime forever. This week we booke them with crazed and able to come up 824 01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:46.320 with one. But we also just want to talk about baseball. But Riky 825 01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:52.159 and he have the last thoughts on this topic. No retire, retire when 826 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:55.880 you want, whether you're a superhero or an athlete or anything. I guess 827 01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:02.199 normal people can't retire until they have money. Unfortunately, Yeah, and I'm 828 01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:07.199 a little I think if it's you're retiring when you still can do it because 829 01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:13.320 someone else can take your place. Great. If you're no longer able to 830 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:16.239 do the job, listen to the people who are telling you you need to 831 01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:21.360 step down. That's that's that's where I come down on it. Riqui has 832 01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.760 always this fantastic conversation listeners, let us know what you think. Of course, 833 01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:27.679 try to become a member. It will be only five dollars a month, 834 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.760 fifty five dollars a year. You get bonus content, you get full 835 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:32.760 bonus episodes, and you help us keep the lights on, help us do 836 01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.280 all things we're doing, and you get a support a great podcast. So 837 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.519 on, behalf of myself and Riki thank you all so very much. We 838 01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:40.480 have spoken about