What Up? Everyone? Welcome back to huge episode of the dragon Ball Virgin.
First, I'll introduce the hosts, Me goes On from anime Uproar,
and of course the dragon Ball Virgin. Ray What Up? Ray? What
Up? Goes And I can't believe we are at the end of dragon Ball
Super Yes, we are at the end of the series portion obviously as any
like hardcore fan knows, not even hardcore like, there is a movie after
this that will discuss the Browley movie. And Ray I was thinking, like,
maybe also watch all of the Browley movies up to that point, because
there's three, and then watch the Cannon one to see kind of because you
already watched the first Browle movie. But so we can kind of compare how
we like the official Cannon Browley versus the old Browley. So yeah, it's
like four movies that'll be It's like, we won't have a bunch of episodes,
just like four movies that will be in two weeks, so you'll have
plenty of time for that. We have that. But yeah, this is
a huge day because we are actually got from the beginning of the dragon Ball
anime series all the way to the end of the dragon Ball super anime series,
Like that's pretty much every Cannon anime series. There's also dragon Ball GT,
but this is like literally everything Canon we've covered. So it's it's fucking
crazy, it's fun crazy. Still got movies, still got manga, still
got potentially GT. But wow, how does it feel? Ray? You've
literally watched like you went from being a dragon Ball version to probably watching more
than a lot of huge fans that just didn't catch every episode. No,
it feels great. And I could finally look through that sixteenth month calendar I
got for Christmas of dragon Ball Super and not be worried about spoilers. So
did you actually look at it? I haven't looked through it. An't know,
Okay, I'm just wondering if like there's there's some Ultra instinct or if
that was before Ultra instinct. But I guess we'll find out. But yeah,
what are your initial thoughts on how they ended it on this second part
of the Tournament of Power of gr N like the strongest villain we've seen up
to this point, right, Yeah, So we were kind of talking briefly
about it before we went live, and I think they wrapped it up pretty
well. Um, I liked the idea of I mentioned this last time,
but bringing in different universes, you know, expanding the world. That was
pretty cool. And this was such a different tournament from what we're used to,
where it wasn't that one on one situation. It was just an absolute
battle royal free for all, and it was It was entertaining. It was
very difficult to follow at times in terms of not necessarily when you're watching it,
but looking back and trying to recount who fought who, You're like,
wow, we there was a lot of like that's the thing, a lot
of characters. I ordered an iPad, which is a random fact, but
I am looking forward to it. It's an iPad pro, and like they
say, it's good for note taking, so I planned to incorporate that for
like what I'm watching series. So like, let's say there was a fight
in this case between like seventeen and like something that stood out, I can
actually, you know, like take a note on it. So yeah,
luckily I did that for this. I have that I perfect in place so
I can guide us in case we ever need any sort of refresher But yeah,
I mean, overall, it was pretty entertaining and it's kind of what
I predicted there. I did not predict seventeen to be the last person standing,
so that was quite interesting or last I guess he's a robot. Yeah,
that surprised me too about this whole arc as a whole, like the
Tournament of Power. I mean, I'm cool with it, but I just
never thought that seventeen would return in such a big way for the series,
right, like, you know, you kind of I don't even think about
seventeen, and then all of a sudden he's introduced that. All of a
sudden, he's playing like, you know, quite possibly a top three role
in the tournament for our side, which is pretty crazy. Yeah, it's
weird, and I guess the good thing about it. The thing I liked
about it was his wish was so just like sincere and wholesome, like just
to take his family out on a cruise, whereas a lot of these other
people had these ill intentions with their wishes. So it was cool to have
this person who again at first just wanted this cruise, but then obviously he
chose to bring everyone back, which I did predict that would probably happen,
and we turned out it was like that was kind of the tricked trick sorry
that the Grand Zenos had in the case fucked up. So it's like it
feels a self like think about like how much like trickery is a foot?
So first they say everyone's gonna be erased except the people that win, and
then if the people that win make a selfish wish, everyone's gonna be erased,
and it's like, what the fuck? I know, oh my god,
but yeah, good thing freezer that make the wish? Was the original
intent of the Grand Zenos? Was it just to erase the bottom universes?
Like it wasn't erase it wasn't at the weak universes, yeah, the weak
ones. So really their first intention was again to the viewer ourselves, that's
why it was so shocking, was like, just to erase the weaker ones.
Then you're going to raise every single universe except the one that wins the
tournament, and then potentially they would have erased everyone like it just would have
been. So I'm not super clear on this, but some people say that
like the strongest universes weren't even competing in this tournament, so so there could
potentially be more. I don't know if like that's factual but I've heard that
people talking about that. Um, so yeah, we'll see as the story
goes on if that is the case. There are other universes that just like
are so strong they didn't even need to compete that that opens up a door
for them to explore later. Yeah. So, I mean there was some
unpredictableness at times about this particular arc, and I'll get into what those things
are. But I just gotta say, I just got this comment that's hilarious.
Big Zam says, you buy an iPad and the universe is saved by
an android. I didn't even get that at first, but yeah, seventeen
was saved. Seventeen saved the world and he's an android and I never thought
of that. That's a fucking good comment right there. That's great. Wow,
it took me like five minutes to understand it. But yeah, we
could get into it chronologically. Yeah, so I think we started with Roh
because Krollin was out at this point. So ros she ends up facing that
girl who wants to seduce him. And good for Rosh. I mean,
he he really shined there and everyone was very impressed with the way he handled
some of those fights. Obviously his big technique was the containment wave. He
brought that throwback back, which was pretty cool to see. But yeah,
I mean he stood his own. He um ended up I think beating one
of those or getting one of those girls out of the ring, I don't
want to say beating one of those girls is. And then there's that.
I think there's like this creature that turns into this bird like creature, and
he ended up being able to um defeat that amazingly well. For like,
considering, you know, what we probably expected of him, some characters probably
didn't do as well, Like I don't know for Gohan. I mean,
he had his moments, but you know, again, if you're always comparing
him to the Ghost of Super Saiyan two team Gohan and then like comparing him
to what Goquin Magida did in this tournament, you know, you almost feel
like he could have done more, while people like Roshy you're like all congrats,
Like I did not expect him to do that much because besides his time
when he had that alter ego Jackie Chung and he shined in that tournament,
this is probably the second best moment he had within all of Dragon Ball,
because he always pretty much takes a backseat or he's there for training, and
for him to be able to do what he did was pretty impressive, I
would say, so. Yeah, he shined there at the beginning, and
I liked the idea of like he ended up using tons of his energy.
And there was a very emotional moment with Goku with everyone where even though he's
been pretty distant from the series over the past little while, like Goku recognizes
the past he had with him. We get those flashbacks and he's just gutted
when he sees Roshi appearing to be dead there at the end of the first
episode. So, you know, you're really funny. It's so funny how
they do that despite the fact that they know there are dragon balls. They
always made such a big deal out of it. Like I get it's emotional,
but it's like it's happened so many times. You're seeing characters die.
Yeah, And that's the big thing about this show is that, like death
and grief are so complicated because you could just easily wish people back. But
I guess maybe in this moment, they didn't know if they would win the
tournament yet the dragon balls back, and I mean it would be a completely
different show if like they got desensitized to death and then all of a sudden
they're like, it doesn't even phaze me anymore. You just got to wish
them back, you know. So it makes sense that they took that approach.
I mean, yeah, even eighteen jumping ahead a bit, eighteen was
traumatized almost when seventeen was thought to be dead, right, so there is
this like, despite the fact that eventually you could probably bring them back with
the dragon Balls, there's this like fear that oh shit, like they're dead.
It's hard to witness. Yeah, so and it kind of like,
yeah, it's it's interesting and only like Dragon Ball aspect because a lot of
shows don't do this. But yeah, it's it's interesting because they do selfish
like sacrifices. But it's like, on the one hand, you know they're
going to bring them back if they actually did die, so it's yeah,
yeah, so, but I mean it was a pretty like cool emotional moment
in that sense, Um, what else do we have? I Mean,
obviously there's that moment where I think he's trying to use the evil Containment Wave
on Frost and he freaking gets vegeta instead. Are they just gonna get Vegeta
out like early, like just do something way off the table, and you
know what's great. What's great is that by doing that, they pretty much
made us happy with whatever vegetaccomplishes, which ends up being actually pretty amazing.
Like Vegeta did not get poor treatment than this, Like obviously you could say,
uh, Goku got the best treatment. You can aspect that he's the
protagonist, but definitely you could say that Vegeta definitely was amazing. He had
his own time to shine. And yeah, I absolutely think that this arc
delivered well for Vegeta, which is cool to end off on because you don't
want like just everyone else put in the back burner for the end of the
series. And yeah, Vegeta was amazing. We'll get to that more detailed
though, Sam, thank you so much for five Gifted subs, and Ray
continue on with what you wanted to talk about. Yeah, so it was
kind of cool how near the end of Rosy being in the tournament, they
just kind of let him jump off. They're like, he's done enough,
and everyone like across the board, the whole team just usually when someone loses
in the tournament or leaves, like there's criticism they all just had that respect
for him, the fact that here's this old guy who put it on the
line. And really when he had that moment where he lost his energy,
he even came back and he almost ended up being able to contain Frost,
which would have been huge, like if Roshi could do that, So props
to Rosch. I mean, even TN he didn't really shine per se,
but he was able to use that multiform technique which was a cool throwback and
knock that one person off with him, who was pretty lethal at the throwbacks.
I really appreciate. Like it was weird how in Dragon Ball Z Piccolo
almost completely lost his ability to extend his arms, do you know what I
mean? Because when I was playing the video games, and like I got
to Boudekai three and I saw Piccolo extending his arms, I was like,
what the fuck is this? Like I don't remember him using this ability and
and he just seems to like forget how to use it and Dragon Ball Z
and he stops using it. So having him like use it in this tournament
arc to like save people after they fall off, like it's nice and it's
like he always had that ability, so why not have him used it more
often, and it's one of the things that makes him unique, right,
because not everyone can just extend their arms like that. Yeah. And speaking
of Piccolo, was there not a time within this arc, I don't know
if it was. Yeah, I don't know if you'd remember, But did
Gohan actually try to protect Piccolo at one point, like do the whole sacrificial
act like Piccolo usually does with him? Yeah, but that that does ring
a bell, yeah, which is like, oh, a bit of a
reverse. Yeah. No, that was that was good. They always have
good chemistry, right, And because of their chemistry as like this uh student
teacher son father almost kind of thing. Like already, the Piccolo and Pan
moments are always like adorable because it comes through like Gohan and his relationship comes
through with the with the kind of like grandfather grandchild relationship a bit as well.
And as the comments always say, like Piccolo sometimes a better father to
go on than to Goku. So oh yeah, so we got that going
on. Yeah, So I mean that was pretty cool. Obviously, Pickle,
it doesn't shine for too too long. I'm pretty sure it gets knocked
out of the ring from being like too um, like he's not fully aware
of his surroundings, and then he ends up getting knocked off kind of like
what happened with Krillan, so um, yeah he uh him and Tienne where
you know fairly um, they didn't last too too long within this arc.
But then obviously after that we get um and I'm trying to think eighteen as
well, eighteen ends up. I think seventeen. Krillan saves eighteen, right,
and she says seventeen. I think yeah, and then she goes on
to save seventeen. So it's like it makes sense because you're saving the person
that's going to be more useful, and obviously eighteen is more powerful than krillin
um, and then and then seventeen is more powerful than eighteen. Why seventeen
is so strong? I don't know. I'm not going to question it,
but I don't mind. Yeah, I guess that's the weird thing. We
don't know much about what he's doing in terms of training, like we know,
yeah, and it's like a backstory, but yeah, yeah, And
it's interesting because you have this I don't know, I always had this assumption
that the androids are kind of created to be their perfect selves, so they
can't really get stronger but clearly that's not the case. Clearly they can kind
of get stronger, but they also have the added benefit of not running out
of power, not running out of energy, which is kind of an insane
benefit to have on top of being able to improve like a normal human being.
So like fuck, yeah, like he got to use that in this
tournament, and it's so useful because he could just like run down the clock
by attacking people with energy blasts. No, he was great. He had
that one pretty lined too, when I know this is ahead of it,
but when he ends up trying to protect Vegeta and Goku and he says,
so this is what it means to be a human, to be able to
like sacrifice yourself for a greater good or scrifice yourself, it was a bit
like I don't know if the right words corny or sappy, but yeah I
did like how Dragon Ball is not the most as you kind of said earlier,
like it seemed not the most philosophical show. Yea, so it kind
of you know, I'm sure in the sub it was it was less weird,
but in the dub it was kind of weird to me. I guess,
like, yeah, you know exactly, you have a family. Now
you're obviously pretty human, Like you want to go on a vacation, you
want to protect animals, you know you you are already human. But yeah,
it's a nice little characterization we got for seventeen. Yeah, so one
group that just pissed me off so much. I was just I'm like,
let's get rid of these already those love girls I could out of the ring,
like it took them so long. I love the comedy elements in this
too, and there was so man, it was such an ambitious project to
like have all these universes, all of these references to other things like Power
Rangers, like Sailor Moon like you know, Mecca, Robot combinations, like
they just put so much together like superheroes and almost a Justice League kind of
feel with Jeron and the rest of those guys. Yeah, it was just
so much coming together. And yeah, times like some people got maybe more
time to shine than you would have liked. But just think about how ambitious
this tournament was as an undertaking, Like it was, it was amazing and
to be able to be so ambitious and pull it off and have it be
satisfying overall, I think they did a great job here. Yeah, for
sure. It was definitely one of the busiest plots we've seen in terms of
different fighters. I can't imagine. Maybe they had voice actors who did more
than one character, but all the different characters we sell over these episodes,
I can't imagine how many people they would have had to bring into Yeah,
they sometimes do we dus like the same one. That's a good point.
But yeah, obviously they wouldn't have done that for everyone. Yeah, so
um, yeah, it was just those those girls were just I don't know
even if Vegeta got he was getting annoyed from them. But um, yeah,
the best was seventeen though, when he just like, you know,
doesn't even let him transform, just like bam bam bam. Oh shit,
oh I gotta let you transform A fine, I guess, don't go ahead.
The thing that pissed me off too, she made fun of Krillan.
Oh my god, look at you man, Like it was yeah, that,
I mean it was it was important for like the Krillan eighteen moments.
But yeah, she was just like ripping on Krillan when fighting eighteen. It's
like, you love that gross dude, so your love can't be stronger than
me. I e. Your power can't be stronger than me, And I
was like, Bro, what what, You're just shitting on a relationship that's
like one of our favorite relationships in Dragon Ball. So you bet like when
eighteen got the better of her, like we were, we were psyched.
Yeah, yeah, so no one puts down my man Kryllan bro exactly.
The dude put up with a lot, but he ended up getting the best
wife who in the game. He still doesn't even have a nose. Respect
for that, and he did all without a nose, So yeah, you
gotta respect thou. Yeah, and one thing, Okay, so I'll get
into one of the surprises. How many times it appeared that Freezer was going
to end up sabotaging the Seventh Universe and it turns out he was actually like
outsmarting the other people and trying to Actually I really like that he was.
He was definitely like a highlight of this arc. And yeah, you're right,
So, like you don't know what he's up to, Like we don't
know for sure, like is he is he honest if they actually go with
his plan, or is he going to like spack stabbing for our universe?
You don't know, And that makes them so interesting. And again jumping ahead
a bit in the end where everyone's like being thanked for participating in a tournament
and stuff like that freeze that just tells Goku, it's like, stop Goku,
I'd rather go to hell than listen to like all of this stuff.
Like I like how he hasn't although they worked together, which was amazing,
Like you know, when Goku and him were working side by side like that,
that was fucking you know, goosebump and doucing like awesomest. But then
like he still doesn't become like, you know, I'm your friend. He's
still like, bro, I'm still gonna take order to the universe. I'm
still evil as fuck. I was just doing this as a means to an
end. And yeah, it was very very cool. And I like the
fact that he'll never become like of a Jeta. He'll be his own thing
where he remains like that evil part. Yeah, So I mean that was
quite interesting because at first, so the first time he ended up kind of
planting the seeds that possibly he was going to turn on them. I think
it was with Frost when they were talking. He was talking to Frost before
he actually knocks him off. Yeah, because you never know what could happen.
Yeah. So what's interesting about this whole tournament is that I don't know
how you felt, but from the beginning, I really I knew it was
going to be you know, Goku, maybe as a Z fighter or two,
like a Seventh Universe fighter, and then there's going to be one other
person from the other universe. It didn't I didn't get a clear indication from
the beginning who that was going to be. Obviously, you get more of
an idea as we go through the episodes, but I was thinking to myself,
well, Hit is part of Frost's universe. Maybe free it turns on
them, and then Frost's universe is that universe that the Seventh One is fighting
at the end, Like, maybe we're gonna get a Hit and a Goku
fight situation. Because Hit has never really lost in a sense to Goku.
Yet no, I thought he was going to be the last possible he would
have. They wanted to make it interesting because like they threw in Geren as
like a new opponent that rather than rehashing an old one and Gerin beat him,
right, Jeron beat him? Yeah, he eventually does. Yeah,
Yeah, so then the assumption is now Goku Ultra Instinct could definitely beat beat
Hit. But it was very interesting and seeing Hit like you know, go
at Gerin was also like a fascinating battle. Yeah, but I have to
think was Hit knocked out of the stadium before Ultra Instinct? Yeah? So
the thing is Hit, yeah, would have been a good opponent with Goku
everywhere up to all trains thing and I'm pretty sure he was knocked out before
all trends things. Yeah. But yeah, obviously, if if Jaren didn't
bring that out of Goku, then Hit definitely would have had a good chance
of beating Goku. Yeah. So yeah, I mean it was interesting just
how you get those moments where you don't freeze and no one could trust him
at this point, but he was able to stay true to that cause,
And to me, I was like, bro, why why even say anything?
It was good for intrigue, it was good to build, like you
know, an episode finishes off that way and you're like, oh shit,
like what's Freeza gonna do? And it's more satisfying when he actually supports our
guys and backs them up, even though he acts like a dick the whole
time, which you know is great to see, but it's like Frost can't
really do much, you know what I mean. I mean maybe he's just
like playing the odds, and you know, it's useful to have someone like
you know, he doesn't really have to try to beat him because he could
just trick him and then take him off guard. But at the same time,
I feel like he could have easily easily beat him without any like trickery
afoot. Yeah, yeah, for sure, But I don't know, it's
just his I don't even know evil nature. I mean, he's having fun.
He's like a kind of joker character where he likes like mess around with
people, and you know, he keeps like throughout this arc, like he
keeps suggesting or implying that he'll betray our guys, and then when it doesn't,
it's just great because it's all time you're like he could though he could,
and then he ends up being the one who saves Goku from falling off.
Like it's amazing. Yeah, he is a trickster because at times he
just especially near the end there, he just vanishes for like an episode,
like you don't see him, yeah, and all of a sudden he comes
out. You're thinking, what's he doing? Is he just waits for everyone
to get knocked off? And then he gets the wishes at the end.
That's another interesting aspect of it. Daddy Larp, thank you so much for
the subscription. That's another interesting aspect of it because it's like, yeah,
when you know, when is it gonna happen, Like when is he gonna
when is it gonna go? Go continue what you were saying. Oh,
I was just gonna say, Um, it was just weird how he just
hid for a while there and he just was not seen for sometimes like an
episode here, an episode there, especially when a lot of the characters fell
off, and you're just thinking, like is this his plan all along?
Yeah? They were wise. They were wise by like sometimes showing characters disappearing
from the Godpad, but then sometimes just like moving on, and so often
when they moved on on, important characters like Freezer and Android seventeen, all
of a sudden, like you know, you start to think you're like are
they really gone or or can they come up? And then they do come
up in like really opportune occasions. So it's it's very satisfying to watch.
Yeah, So that was interesting it was speaking of we were talking about different
throwbacks. I mean this was when Go who first um kind of tapped into
that ultra instinct, but he ends up summoning the spirit bomb, which you
know has a great, um great history there in Dragon Ball Z and everyone
offering It's funny because at first everyone offered up their energy, including Freeza,
but Vegeta was hesitant, and I'm thinking, whoa. Freeza offered it up,
but Vegeta didn't like it. Goes to show that, like Vegeta's pride
just will not yea, Freeza has that like, you know, interesting nature
where like, I don't know, he's not that. I mean you could
say he's proud, but he shows in a very different way than Vegeta,
like he doesn't have um that Vegeta like need to appear manly kind of yeah,
right. Would you say, because I know you say you love dropping
this line in every episode, would you say Freeza is even more machiavellian than
Vegeta because here's an opportunity one hundred Vegeta to be able to let Go could
take care of things, and he's like, yeah, I'm not going to
do that. It would benefit Vegeta in the long run. But he's like,
I'm not gonna get my my egos getting in the way of this.
I was Freeze is like, you know what, this will benefit me and
in the long run if I go along, is one hundred percent more Machiavellian
than Vegeta. And that comes up when Vegeta is so upset with Top and
I think zeke and joined us and also mentioned like he's excited about Top,
and yeah, he's an interesting antagonist in this part of it. And with
Top, he abandoned his ideals, like his principles, which were justice,
in order to move to a place of a god of destruction where everything is
either is or is not right. And that's interesting on a philosophical level.
But what's even more interesting is Vegeta's reaction to that and how he's so pissed
that, you know, he abandoned his ideals and principles and how could someone
who abandons his principles and pride ever beat him. There's no way, like
in his opinions, So yeah, when it comes to certain situations, he
would rather lose than betray his principles and pride. Yeah, And it's interesting
because we always get this this kind of view in our society, and like,
you know, there's reasons for it, but that pride is not a
good thing, like it's considered one of the you know, seven deadly sins.
And there are times when pride is viewed as a positive thing, whether
you see it with Vegeta, right, he gets strength from his pride.
He even like unlocked that new form beyond super saim Blue in part because of
his pride. So yeah, it's interesting how Vegeta and I feel like the
series in general doesn't portray it as a bad thing, even though for us,
like usually pride is considered a bad thing. Yeah, no, it
gives more of a nuance to that particular ideal, I know, kind of
ties into I'm reading a book right now about different ideals from the West and
how an ideal, like an ideal like courage they reference like the Odyssey and
Achilles and this just you know, destructive machine. And sometimes you know what
you need like this destructive, courageous person when you go to war, and
sometimes you need pride, like in the case of Ajeeta to tap into something
or else you wouldn't get there. So yeah, it does like complicate that
idea of like pride is always a bad thing. No, it can be
beneficial and with the right character, with the right situation, it does prove
to be useful. Yeah, And there are different ways to get to the
quote unquote strongest in the world. Right, Goku's path is letting go,
and Genia's path seems to be to double down on his pride. Yeah,
yeah for sure. So yeah, I mean that whole I guess maybe if
you want to go to the ultra instinct at the first time, Like that
was a pretty unusual like state because we didn't get that huge power up that
we get when he turned like super Sian for the first time. He just
this would end up happening. I think the Spirit Bomb kind of repondited opinion
about like all of the different hair colors. We have, honest opinion of
the different ones we've seen, including ultra instinct. Yeah, like, yeah,
what are your thoughts on that? As someone who was a Dragon Ball
virgin, how do you experience all these different hair colored transformations? So I
like the Super Sian I think the best the idea that your hair turns like
blonde, you get this extra burst of power. The rose obviously it was
pretty like short lived there, but the super Saian blue, Um, I
don't know, it's just I guess another way, how how far can you
differentiate the blonde hair right to get to that next phase, you gotta do
the blue. It's just funny because sometimes you're like, oh, Goku just
turned blue or something, and they just let's just like, let's just count
it for a second. So I'm probably gonna miss some forms, guys,
so don't be too anal about it. But yeah, so just quickly,
so there's super Saying, which is blonde. Then there is like, you
know, all the variations of super Saying, but they're the same color pretty
much. And then there is super Saying God, which is red hair right,
and then there's super Saan blue, and then there's obviously super Saying rose.
And then there's Kales like green haired, kind of legendary super Siyan kind
of look. And now there was Vegeta'm moving beyond super Saian blue, which
is like a kind of darker blue aer like a purer blue, which you
could tell the difference between the shade of Goku's hair and the shade of Vegita's
hair. And then there was Ultra Instinct, which is white hair. The
cool thing about Ultra Instinct is that they kind of kept his usual hair rather
than having it all rise up, which did distinguish it from like Super Sayans,
which are like kind of just the hair goes spiky. But at the
same time, it's like, yo, how many hair colors? Like if
the series goes on, it's like, we are we gonna actually get more
hair colors because I feel like we covered Durrainbow at this point. And yeah,
and at the end when Goku turns, when he's able to master super
Saying instinct there or at least before his energy runs out, he has the
super Saiyan like the final blue hair. Did you notice that it actually turns
all blue? Yeah? Okay, yeah, So it's just like there's another
variation of the ultra instinct. You have the one where at first it's his
regular hair and then's like that yeah, yeah, but now he was able
to once he mastered it at the end there with Duran, he was able
to actually turn blue while having the Ultra instinct within it. All that's left
is rmbigate go koken there and then he would have had like three transformations in
one. Yeah, like not transformation, but three. Yeah, yeah,
like crazy like power up stat boosts. Yeah yeah, so no, it's
it's very interesting and honestly, like I love the transformations and stuff like that's
not something that I necessarily want to not happen in Dragon Ball, but yeah,
they gotta get creative with it now. I think they did a good
job with Ultra Instinct where you know, the design was different where it didn't
look like the super Saian hair, you know, the white, the story
around it, right, like the letting go being off pure instinct. You
know, there's very interesting stuff in it. But it's going to get harder
and harder for them to create good transformations because you know, they've covered so
much. So it'll be interesting to see what the next level is moving forward.
Yea, and sometimes we get the fusion. Remember we had Vegeto but
then he turned blue. So I wonder if we'll ever get like a Vegeta
learns because Regina doesn't end up getting to Ultra Instinct. No, I wonder
if we'll get him learning how to do it then Goku being able to in
some day They kind of implied, Yeah, that would be sick actually,
And like we saw with Trunks and Go ten you don't need to actually be
able to do the transformation to reach it. So go tanks could do Super,
sayan three, even though they couldn't yet. So the implication to me
would be that perhaps if they fused, even if Vegeta couldn't do it,
Vegeto could do matter also Instinct. But I mean, they kind of threw
a Gito out of the realm of possibility by having his form consumes so much
power at this point that it can't maintain the fusion. Yeah. Right,
that's kind of what they did with the future Trunk saga where they're like they
were Super saying blue Vegito, but he didn't last long because I guess he's
just too powerful. M I did like the whole like Ultra instinct transformational.
I thought it was interesting because it kind of was different we've so far in
Dracon'm all Super, all the transformations have been kind of like Deity godlike,
which is kind of the common theme within Super with the different gods of destructions
the different universe. But Instinct was different in the sense of I don't know,
I just I don't know how to describe it, but it was way
less like Flair for the dramatics and just you know, you were when Goku's
able to he's fighting someone, he's you know, it's just a lot more
natural than that. They brought me back to. It brought me back to,
like I know, it's super different, but like in Dragon Ball and
Dragon Ball Z, like the original saying transformation was the ape and it was
again, it wasn't this deity thing. It was a very primitive transformation,
right, And with this transformation, it kind of moves away from that whole
deity the mean I mean yes and no, because they portray it as like
a divine thing that even God's destruction have hard time reaching. But at the
same time, I do like how it's almost like emphasized with stillness and calm
yea, rather than with like screaming and like insane power aura and like,
yeah, I like that. So there's a meme that you know, Dragon
Ball Z is just about people screaming until they get stronger, but here we
kind of you know, ultra instant kind of messes with that and actually gives
us a different kind of transformation, which I think is really cool. Yeah,
yeah, for sure, but yeah, it was it was an interesting
transformation. Interesting how similar to. I guess, like Koken, you could
only use it for a certain amount of time at the beginning, and then
you saw the toll it took on Goku's body, But I didn't like that.
Yeah, how did you like that turn of events? How did how
did I like the whole ultra instinct? Yeah, so the whole we could
talk about now the battle between Gerr and obviously we could come back to stuff
if we want to talk about it, but with Jan and all transling Goku,
Like, how did you feel about the fight? And how did you
feel about as soon as Goku won pretty much he gets taken out by his
body not being able to contain it anymore and not being able to go on
and the after effects of it. So, yeah, how did you How
did you experience that? I thought it was predictable in the sense of we
saw it the first time, so when it ends up struggling the second time,
it didn't throw me off guard. And I think that's that's what so
much of dragon Ball is, especially Dragon Ball Z and dragon Ball Super.
You get to this new form a lot of times, and it's tough to
sustain it, and there's a limitation to it, and over time, you
know, you'll learn to be able to to be able to you know,
withstand that form, because we've seen it with Member of way back in Dragon
Ball Z, when Goku and Gohan learned how to become super Sian without like
having that full power up, they were just living super Saians in their regular
day life. So it seems like a lot of these forms, it's this
idea of learning. It's not just learning how to do it, but learning
how to sustain it and learning how to have it there without it just ruining
your body. So it didn't necessarily surprise me. I guess at the end,
I was thinking to myself, like, okay, Jerran's vulnerable here,
and I mean so many times too, were you thinking like just end it,
like Goku's just slowly putting his finger up or hand up in order to
end it everyone let's go and co so um, but yeah, I mean
it didn't shock me outright. I think the thing that was really cool is
when he was able to recover their a bit at the end. And um,
I don't know if he does this within ultra instinct, but when him
and a vegeta like they do that duo punch against Jerry, I thought there
was like, what a what an image there where back the Dragon Ball Z
Yeah, and Goku and Freezer being the ones to save the universe teaming up
like that, and it was like the original Freezer form. It wasn't the
Golden Freezer. You would to take a photol of that and show it to
me way back then in the namic saga would have been like what the fuck?
So it was a cool sight to see. Yeah, me too,
And like that goes double for the Freezer moments where they're fighting, right,
like Goku and Freza, Like we had the image of Freeza in base form
and super sayan Goku, which is pretty much a nod to their original fight,
and they were working together against an enemy. And I was gonna say,
yeah, that's what you thought of it, because I thought it was
a really good move. I'm so glad that they didn't just have Goku annihil
a Geron and that was that. I'm so glad that they like let him
get to a level higher than Geron. But then just as soon as it
was going to be over, he had to face the ramifications of attaining that
form, and then they had to actually turn to team work to finish off
a damaged Garin. I absolutely loved that they did that, and I preferred
it much more too. If Goku just single handedly overpowered Garin and that was
the end. Yeah, and we also get that, didn't we get that
with Vegeto last time with the Future Trunk saga, Like he could have over
Howard there, but then again the fusion runs out, and then yeah,
potentially, yeah, exactly potentially here you could have used like fusion as well.
It's just yeah, again they had the earring limit. Oh yeah,
I'm not saying they should have. I'm just saying, like we've seen this
idea before of here's this overpower powering character, but like it runs short,
like with the fusion, he's not able to sustain the fusion, and then
they're kind of screwed with this. Goku isn't able to sustain then seems like
it seems like he didn't really master it. So he mastered it, perhaps
to a greater level that second time, but Lee was surprised that his body
was so affected by it. So clearly Goku hasn't learned how to use it
that well. And later when he's talked to Ageta, he tells him that
no, he hasn't like gone to the point where he can use it at
any point, And so now pretty much you have Ageta at this equal level
to Goku, where Vegeta is beyond Super Sian Blue is probably equal to,
if not stronger than, Goku Super sim Blue with Kayo Ken, but Goku
has shown that in particular circumstances he can actually have an even higher level of
ultra instinct. I love too when Vegeta on the side line is cheering like
for Goku, like Cokra, let's go, like you never you never really
see that that idea of like getting behind Goku. It's always this competition with
him, even when he turns good. So I love that if he finally
you know, at that time, you know the end, put that pride
aside and just like got behind him. And there's I think there's one moment
where he like very much motivates him, like he says some sort of line
that Goku is left defenseless at one point with Geren, and he like gets
up and then he's able to fight back, Like he's able to motivate Goku
in order to be a better fighter or just be resilient and that's really cool
to see. That's kind of the idea that dragon Ball Super and dragon Ball
in general is always kind of revolving around. Even at the end. I
thought it was great. How Yeah, they're kind of finishing off the series
at least for a time, and yet they kind of say they'll continue to
get stronger. And he's like, Goku says to Vegas something along the lines
of, we'll just keep pushing each other to get even stronger. We'll keep
going forever, which is like, of course, you idiot, and it's
like it doesn't need to be said. But I like the idea that you
know, always they're pushing to find that new level. And the main reason
Goku is excited to find all of these stronger and stronger opponents is because it
pushes him to reach a stronger and stronger level. And so while some people
might be like bro, prioritize saving the world, Goku was like, Bro,
I really wish like a super strong guy would come here so I don't
have to be bored and I can reach a higher level. It's it's such
a cool thing, and I love how there's like no end. It's very
much like life. It's like you know, the path to mastery is never
finished unless you put a stop to it. Yeah, I mean I was
listening to a professional runner who was like quoting philosophy, and he basically ended
up kind of playing around with that quote like know thyself. It was kind
of like push thyself, know thyself. So like for Goku and Vegeta,
like when they push themselves to new heights, that's how they get to know
themselves better, and that's how they get to carve that meaning in their lives.
Yeah, you know, it's really this never ending quest for knowing yourself,
like what is your limit? And that's very powerful and a very meaningful
goal in their life, a meaningful why for living. That's why it's like
you just think, why do you have to? Like so many times you
see, especially in super where he could just go about collecting that money got
from Hercule and become a farmer, but he doesn't want to do that.
He wants to put himself in these uncomfortable situations and see how far he could
go. So you gotta respect them for that, No exactly, And you
know what, like that's a very like idea and stoicism too, with like
the whole Hercules and it's like what would have Hercules been without his challenges?
Like he might have just like laid around in bed all day, and it's
like, yeah, you know, you're already alive. You want to see
what you can accomplish sometimes rather than just kind of take the easy way out,
which Goku is definitely one of those people who will always push themselves as
long as he's still alive. Right, So I really love that too.
We kind of like didn't really talk about it much, but what did you
think of ultra instinct versus kefla just like the whole saying theme throughout the tournament?
Well, was it ever? I don't know if it was ever ultra
instinct versus them? I know they when I think it was. I think
it was, but like incomplete Okay, you guys correct me if I'm wrong
in the chat, but I seem to recall like, you know, them
going all out against him together and like kavla um you got yeah, I
think even like they separated at some point and then went separately. But yeah,
no, they ended up losing while they were fused, I believe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that whole fusion was quite interesting. And then
we get being able to see like even Kale developed so quickly as well.
Yes, so it was it was incomplete, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
incomplete. Yeah, I mean that was Yeah. He was able to do
that because it makes sense because we saw how crazy the multiplier for Vegeto was.
So if Goku easily beat Kafla, who has like some kind of legendary
super satiand vibes to her, then that would have been like, ah,
does that really match up with the vegeto vegeto thing, But with ultra instinct
being the thing to like beat her, it made more sense. Yeah,
so I mean that was interesting. It was interesting as well. How again,
here's Goku who he is teaching. This is before they fuse. He's
teaching them how to like move on to the next layer of super saying,
and you think yourself, man, why are you doing this? You're just
putting yourself at more risk to lose this tournament. But he just doesn't care.
He wants that challenge, and so it's interesting to see him in a
way. I don't think he wants it to Goku wants it to be like
that because he's not really a show offie person, but he does look pretty
arrogant at times when he's like, and this is super Sayan too, notice
how I'm a bit stronger here, and you're like, man, like you
see a bit of that cockiness there. But I don't think he meant yeah,
I don't think that's sun. But that's so funny. He's like,
and then you want to eventually get to this point, super Saiyan three,
but the problem at this point is like you can't really sustain it. It
trains a lot of energy. But yeah, you just folks are super saying
two now and then we'll see maybe one day you can get to where I
am. So yeah, no, I love it. And ed who says
in the shot also, the Commandma he used against Kevla was so sick.
Yeah, like it was amazing because he couldn't really he didn't master the attacking
portion yet vulture instinct, so he just launched an amazing commandma. And yeah,
this tournament was filled with those highlight moments, and one of those was
that Commandma. Another one was when seventeen had his time to shine with the
music in the background and defeated that giant Mecca kind of fusion. And then
there were you know all those other times we mentioned, like Goquin Freezer fighting
side by side. But Geta and Top we didn't even mention that, bro,
But Getah took out a god of destruction Bro. I know, Bro,
Holy fucking shit. Talk about like again, obviously, we couldn't really
expect Vegita necessarily to take out the final antagonist in the final moments of the
you know, final season so far, but oh my god, was his
battle against Top like amazing? It was. And there was that one moment
within the battle if you remember, when Vegita looks like he's going to do
that self destruct move again flashback, yes, and he thinks, like,
I think that's the thing that takes him out. I'm pretty sure that move,
Yeah, I think so. I think so, And somehow instead of
destroying himself, he survives it, which is another flex. And then they
that could have been enough, That could have been enough for Vegita to have
like a great moment. But I love the way they kept giving him great
moments. So like he goes and he's weak, but there's still his pride
at work and he's still attacking Geren and helping out a bit until he finally
gets taken out after Gerin shows him respect and it's like you didn't have to
give but Gita that much time and those that many epic moments. But I'm
so glad you fucking did. I'm so glad. I love seeing Vegita shine
like that. I loved seeing, like, you know, his thoughts about
yeah, you know, his protege right, wanting to save him, but
also wanting to save obviously Boma, his daughter, his son. So yeah,
just amazing arc for Vegeta. Well yeah, because and again it goes
back to his transformation. I think I know what you're talking about. When
this is before he's a self destruct move and he's reflecting on his motivation for
fighting and that gets him to like get super motivated and he lands like this
huge punch against top. But unlike before, Like think about before when his
main goal was he wants to be like, you know, the Prince,
Like he wants to be the most powerful person in the universe. Now,
like he's talking about why he fights, that motivation for fighting, and like
you said, it's for those people that he loved to protect them, and
like he's more so than it is with Goku, which is fucking crazy to
think about. Well yeah, yeah, and you could argue I mean he
talked about Piccolo being a better father. You could argue Vegeta definitely is because
remember you get that flashback of Trunks holding like his sister, and then Digeta
takes him and he's like, you're not doing it right, and he actually
starts doing it. Yeah, you can't imagine Goku like caring how he holds
a baby. No, really right, Like he'll be like, haha,
baby, yeah, throw it up in the air. Yeah yeah, and
then Vegina's like, no, you idiot, hold it like this. You
gotta be very and then Trunks like, yeah, you're very good at that.
He probably like read books and shit, and it's like spare time.
Ah man, Vegeta. Oh, I'd love to see Vegeta's bookshelf. Yeah,
Vegeta is such a great character, probably like one of the greatest transformations
and ball Z from beginning to end. Obviously, you know, not every
character needs to transform, because Goku is already, like you know, he's
already a good character who doesn't necessarily have like huge character flaws, although that's
debatable with his like carelessness and stuff like that. But with what Jeta,
there's such a beautiful character arc and I just one of the reasons I kept
saying before was I love Dragon Ball Super Into continuations because we just get more
of these characters that doesn't even have to be necessarily about fighting and new forms.
It's like, you know, we get to see these characters interact,
and I fucking love it. Like, you know, they're part of the
family at this point. I wonder too, I've I've always thought about this
for a little while, speaking of like the family and transformation. Well,
d's ever make an appearance again? Oh my god, he's pretty important.
He is the brother of I mean, surprisingly that's not that important. Sorry
to Anamak, who is my older brother. But in this case, it's
just not a big deal. Like it seemed like he was again, like
you'd think you're our main character's brother, Like that'll be like this huge significant
thing. Like the dude hasn't been present until the fricking he hasn't been present
since the first season of Dragon Ball Z, right, and no one cares.
Hockey Wokie, thank you so much for one thousand bits Magical Crystal says
Vegeta is a much better daddy than Goku with ag Yeah, definitely, I
agree as well. Um, but Yeah, for Goku, family is just
I guess not as big of a priority, and that definitely applies to Raditt's
And you can't blame Gogu for that because Radditt's is a terrible brother and uncle.
Like yeah, but at the same time, you think how many people
has he forgiven over time, but we can't forgive his brother. Yeah,
the problem is Rabbits is just not as cool and powerful as Vegeta, right,
so you just wouldn't have meshed as well with the with the team as
Vegeta does. But yeah, yeah, it's a good car. It's a
good thing to bring up, right when we're like finishing the dry Ball Super
series. That, Yeah, Rabots was introduced so long ago, a brother
of our main character and completely irrelevant at this point, exactly like Ghost Nappa
had a more powerful effect on me than Radbots. Although I gotta admit I
still loved the Radbots part, like I love that part of series. It's
just Rabbits doesn't resonate as much throughout the whole series. Yeah, no,
I thought he was like a badass in that moment. Oh yeah, no,
you loved him. I remember that his hair and his like fucking arm
I think like that's the first time we get like the appearance of the saying
armor too, the saying armor. Yeah, I think so. I think
that's fair. No one else would have came before, except if we got
like some some like bonus material. But yeah, I think canonically that's probably
the first time we see to say an armor. No, I mean,
like, what a fucking journey has been? Bro Obviously, like I said,
guys, we are going to cover the movie and the manga by like
what a what a journey has been with the anime series? Is there anything
else we want to discuss before we wrap up with this the ending of Dragon
Ball Superum, I mean I don't think so. I think we we mentioned
how with Freeze at the end we send up bringing them back to life.
Yeah. I really loved those. Uh we didn't talk about it, but
I really loved those after the credits scenes and you know, like the moments
in between, like after the tournament ended, where we kind of got a
glimpse of everyone brought back to life. I really liked seeing Shampa Schampa and
Berres is a brother relationship that really works, and they're relevant to each other.
And I liked how Shampa is like, oh, so brought me back,
don't expect to thank you, right. I love that. I love
that fucking brotherly relationship. It's like they care about each other, but they're
you know, they have a sense of pride when talking to each other and
showing all those different universes being brought back. Obviously the effect gerns. We
didn't even talk about Geron's backstory and how he kind of felt like couldn't rely
on everyone and he had to be the strongest and that's the only way to
get strong by like relying completely on yourself and then having that philosophy destroyed along
with his kind of physical defeat by Goku, who used everyone's power to kind
of help him along the way. And that was a great moment for again
finishing off a series where they said Goku would never say that he's here by
himself, you know, it took so many people to get him here.
And we saw those flashbacks as the Gern fight was happening, and talk about
great ways to send off a series. Although I'm hoping it's going to come
back in anime series form, but like having those like flashbacks as he's fighting
someone as big as Jared and all the gods and angels and the highest divine
entities are watching him do it. Wow, Wow, amazing, amazing.
Yeah. Did you ever get during any of the fights kind of annoyed with
the grand Zenos? Ah? Again, I don't know if I would have
the first time. Around this time, I didn't, just because I know
what to expect, and to be honest, they're kind of there to make
things more hype because they're like kids watching. Yeah, because like you know,
that fusion thing probably shouldn't have been allowed, but they're like, yeah,
we think it's exciting. Let's keep going. Yeah, it's great for
fan service because then us we could be like, oh fuck, that would
have been cool if we got fusions, but it's against the rules. Oh
they interfered, and it's and because it's exciting, we're gonna allow it.
Oh cool, we get to see kevla. So over overall, I didn't
mind them, But what were your thoughts? They just, you know,
a little bit over time, got a little annoying with um, the whole
godpad there every time someone would lead to go poop, and they just,
um, you know, their commentary was a little bit annoying, But it's
not like it. Um. Yeah, it was a bit to like hype
us up, you know, yeah, um, which was it necessary?
Maybe not, but it it made sense within like the overall premise of what's
going on. Um, Saul King skull King says, and I don't know
if we said this, but that the new movie, New Dragon Ball Super
Movie is confirmed for twenty twenty two. Ray did you know that twenty twenty
two? No. Yeah, so we're gonna watch Broley and then we're gonna
go to the manga. But eventually we'll have like another movie to review,
which hopefully will be on Broly level, because the Browly movie was very good.
And then yeah, so obviously we'll see as we get there what happens
when we run out of like manga chapters and gt But we could always do
like some extra stuff and have like at least a monthly chapter review episode.
But that's down the line. We still got plenty of stuff to do before
we get to that point. And another quick question really important because I'm so
looking forward to it actually am for entertainment purposes. I guess we're going to
watch the real life animation drag. Yeah, I don't know, I'm thinking
maybe maybe we do. Maybe we do it after the manga as like a
way to kind of top off and take a break before we start Dragon Ball
GT. Yeah, just a funny kind of episode. Funny episode, throw
tomatoes at the movie exactly. And I know some people are like, skip
a movie, but I just I enjoy watching stuff that's bad and making fun
of it as well. I'm actually very much looking so I'm actually excited.
I'm actually excited. Um, thank you chrisio Taku for two hundred and forty
five magical crystals. But Jeeta beats up God of Destruction and then he says
something that I'm not gonna say because Ray doesn't know that yet, says love
the podcast, listen to it while I'm delivering Amazon inspired me to do my
own awesome chrisio Takku. Keep it up. Thank you for the support.
All right, anything else, Ray we want to cover, I don't think.
Sorry, Yeah, we did a good job, amazing thing. Like
I really liked the first half of it. I did like, but often
you reach the climax and satisfying conclusion at the latter half of things, and
that was the case with this tournament and beautiful, beautiful way to end off
the series. Love the Goku and Vegeta still training afterwards, letting us know
that you know they're keeping going. There will be more to look forward to.
The fighting never ends. And yeah, those little moments of like Vegeta
and Boma crying when she sees Vegeta like it was, it was great moments.
I loved it. Freeza is now back, which you gotta keep an
eye on, right, he was wished back and so we'll get to actually
see how he serves as an evil emperor while gokuin Vegeta are so strong,
and how he pops up again. But yeah, I also want to say,
guys that for the anime Virgin On Monday, Nucks Briggs and I are
going to be reacting to record of Ragnarok on Netflix, and I just gotta
say I'm so hyped. I watched the first four episodes, dude, I
fucking loved it. I don't know like what people are saying about it.
I'm completely blind as to how people feel about it, but I absolutely love
it. It's like this hype machine where it just keeps giving you like hype
hype moments flex after flex. So I can't wait to see how it goes,
but yeah, like you're gonna want to be there. I'm super hyped
about it so far. Four episodes in right now, but remember that in
two weeks, Ray and I will discuss the Broley movie and compare it to
like prior Broley movies and how the canonical Broley may be worse or better than
the non canonical Brole. I have a feeling it's gonna be better, but
we'll see what Ray thinks. And until next time, see Us Space Cowboys Bang,