Hi, guys. I wanted to revisit an episode that I did probably about
a year ago, because I think it's not only relevant, it's more relevant,
I think than ever. You know, there's a lot of conversation around
people don't want to work anymore, and people don't want to go in the
office anymore. I think a big part of the reason why people are not
finding pleasure in that is people used to go into the office, and they
used to because there was somewhat of a social environment and you could have fun
with your co workers, and you could have fun with your colleagues, and
you could go out for a drink, and you could find your boyfriend and
girlfriend's spouse to be. And I think that the more we're getting away from
that, and I'm not trying to just give you a bunch of HR violations
here, the more we get away from the workplace is not a place of
social interaction. I'll just say that, I think it's going to be hard
to on both the work side and the dating side, and the employer side
and the employee side. So I want to revisit a conversation I have with
Jacquelin Beck, who's an expert on this kind of thing. She brought up
a lot of good points. I think I brought up a lot of good
points. I think it's interesting as we as we move into a new year
and the year ahead, to take a look back and think about what we
need to do to be able to share space, share time, share passion,
and share projects together in a way that is productive, that is safe,
and has possibilities of love, dating, a relationship at the end of
it. So, without further ado, let's take another listen. This is
Pod POPULARI podcast for the People, the Great Love Debate. It's the Great
Love Debate, a great love Debate, It's a great loved Hi again everyone,
it's Brian Howie. Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number
one dating and relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. We are back here once again
in the very fine studios of Pod Popular Podcasts for the People. I'm once
again in the one in Boca Raton. It's like eighty degrees here. It
is winter time. If you have the meme and find eighty degrees in a
wintertime, it's delightful. One quick note of business, So I've gotten emails
about this, and you guys reach out all over the place saying when is
the two thy and twenty three list of the Worst Cities in America to Find
Love coming out? And last year, this very region, South Florida was
seventh on that list. So we always release it in the early part of
the new year. We're going to do something different this year. And this
year not that we don't take any of the statistics and information from you guys
and our experiences traveling around the world to try and make these lists together,
but this year, I'm exclusively going to let you guys nominate the candidates for
the Worst city in America to Find Love, And I'm going to read your
actual missives that you're sending to me complaining about it. And remember, if
you're like you know, it's never that you haven't met the right person.
It's always that you haven't been the right person. So if you're in that
city and the city sucks to date, you're part of the problem. You're
not part of the solution. So it doesn't let you off the hook.
It's like, uh, I couldn't find love in Chicago. It's you.
You can absolutely find love in Chicago. But we are going to do that.
I think two weeks from this episode, we are going to do that.
So, if you have a candidate for the worst city in America to
find love, and don't give me some small town and don't give me some
every year somebody sends in New Jersey, and New Jersey's not a city the
state, So every year somebody sends me in some small town which may or
may not suck. It has to have an international airport. Okay, that
is where I draw the line. And some very small towns have an international
airport, even if they're sort of puddle jumping over to Calgary. So that's
the barrier to do this. So if you have a candidate for the worst
city in America to fine love for twenty twenty three, email us Great Love
Tobate at gmail dot com and if it is a strong enough argument, not
only might it make the top ten, we will read it on the podcasts.
Okay, I'm going to bring in my guest here. So one of
the biggest challenges with love dating relationships in the last five years that has changed
significantly is for years and years and years, our parents, our grandparents,
and most of you, guys, most of your relationships came from somebody you
met in the workplace, on a job, and the reason for that is
those are the people that you spend most of your waking hours with every single
day, every single week, every single year. That is the pool that
you are around. Those are the people that you have conversations with. Those
are the people that you are most intimately connected to. Those are the people
you're sharing space with. It is natural that you will find some connection.
I would think that, however, has taken a terrible, terrible turn.
My parents met in the workplace. That's a story we'll get into in a
minute in a little while. But so I'm here. I didn't want to
bring in some HR rep because they would probably point out all of the violence.
First of all, I speaking of that, I have Ariana the controls
say hi, Ariana, Hello. Sorry, that's not an HR violation.
I just simply said hi to her. Somebody somebody emailed about you and they're
like, she sounded interesting. I'm like, she was actually on an episode
several OLYMPEG. Yeah, so pay attention. I have somebody in here who
knows a little bit more about this stuff on a lot of different levels.
I'm gonna get her bio right here. She's a business and career strategist.
She's a certified executive and career coach, and most importantly, she's the founder
of Jacqueline Beck Consulting. She's also the host of the very popular worked up
podcast The Pregnant. Can I say that word out loud? It's not not
an histee anymore. Jacqueline Beck. How are you? I'm good? How
are you, Bryan good? What do we do? I'm gonna throw you
through right in the deep end of the pool. You can date it work
in some companies. You can't depend on the company. You got to go
to hr It's very unromantic to just be I saw her at the copier and
I'm like, you want to go to dinner? Yes? And this is
one of those areas. It's a very gray space, right, and there's
a very thin line that anyone needs to tow if there's any type of attraction
in the workplace. So what I would say on a practical level is that
every organization has their own set of rules. I highly advocate for people to
understand those rules before they act on anything. Typically, if there's a hierarchical
relationship, some type of romantic relationship is not permitted. I've seen lots of
people meet still in the workplace. Within the past decade or so, I've
seen people be married at work and no one know because they've kept different last
names. Yeah. Now, the upper levels of management, they're not only
concerned about the relationship on the way in, they're absolutely concerned about it on
the way out. They're concerned that if it doesn't work out just as much
as anything else. It's like these two people went out and went terrible.
That a whole thing, and now it infects the office place. They can't
not only share a cubicle, they can't work together on assignments. There's weird
energy everybody's around them. I get the reasons. But for generations, we
got around it. Not only did we date, we were allowed to.
You came in after, you know, on a Friday or a Monday,
and you get your hair done or you had a new dress, and we
could compliment you and tell you you look good and how you doing it?
And you look great? And now that is grounds for dismissal in like seventy
percent of companies. I've never worked for a company, So what do I
know. But I hear things. I hear, yeah, I hear it's
not good but I get every company's different. Yeah. Generally speaking, though,
do you try and you know you don't want to sneak around you try
and do the asking out stuff outside of the office. Yeah, Like,
don't do it around the conference table eight till there's some reason why you run
into them an Applebee's and then you're like, hey you're from accounting, Hey
you're cute, and then these go from there. So this is my impression
of corporate America. Yah, Applebee's. What are your references? Office space?
Office space is everything? Yes, she worked at Flingers. Is that
where she was? I don't know, but they had to adorn themselves with
flair. But I think it was based on like an Applebee's thing. I
think it was. But he dated outside. She wasn't. She didn't work
with them exactly. It was a bunch of dudes. So to answer your
question, what I would say is that, to me, speaks to understanding
action and consequence and having emotional intelligence. And it sounds really simplistic, but
it's harder. It's harder said than done. And what I mean by that
is you brought up a really good point. You know, nine times out
of ten you're going to go out with someone who's not going to end up
being your husband or wife or significant other for the rest of your life.
So there is that expectation, Oh wait, shit might hit the fan,
Oh wait, this might not go well. Oh wait, one of us
might really hurt each other or do something that's really messed up. And then
I need to see this person every day and put on a smile. Right,
And there's one the question node of do I want to go down that
path? Is it worth it to me? And then number two is you
know, if you want to take a scientific look at it, you have
a lot of data when you're working with someone, you said at the beginning,
you see the way they communicate with people. You see how they interact,
you share things with them, you spend most of their time with them.
If you're attracted to them, if there is a level of attraction or
knowledge, it's because you have that data. And so more times than not,
you know their quirks too, and you know the things that'll piss you
off about them, and if those are glaringly obvious, those are probably red
flags not to go down the path of going to Applebee's and asking them out
right now they're are the advantage of the workplace just take it a step further,
is lots of the conversations and situations there are going to manifest a more
cerebral level of conversation. So the person is going to seem smart, they're
going to seem creative, they're going to seem interesting. Versus if you just
ran into a guy in a bar and they're like, Eh, are you
what do you want to drink? Like that's our So you're in you're already
an environment that sort of breeds attraction. You're primed. Yeah, mental attraction,
physical attraction. It's a location ship because you are in the same place
at the same time. That happens in Hollywood a lot you know the director
and that or has famously recently happened with Olivia Wilde and Harry Styles and and
you know, it makes everybody else a little bit uncomfortable. That being said,
sneaking around makes you, guys uncomfortable. It's it's it's hard all the
way around. Yes, I think there's Again that's a delicate balance because you
don't want to announce anything or you don't want to say anything to anyone unless
you know it's the real deal, Right, So there comes a time where
probably you need to tell HR. Probably you need to tell the people around
you. But I think inevitably there's going to be an element of sneaking around,
at least initially, which frankly probably adds to the element of mystique and
excitement about it. Yeah, the sneaking around like catch a quick glimpse and
everything. When and again this is different for every company. Yeah, when
do you have to tell HR? I think I'm going to ask out Jane.
We've gone out three times. No, I wouldn't say that. I
would say that if there is a relationship, if it's not just we've gone
out a few times and we've had fun, but we don't see this going
anywhere. If you really think there's the opportunity to see it going somewhere,
then it probably warrants the discussion. But that is not a flag you want
to raise until it's serious. Can a company legally tell two people they can't
date? Everybody has rights. I am not an HR professional, I know
I like I would think legally you cannot do that. I don't know if
anybody's challenged that up to the Supreme court level. You know, some people
like you can't date in the workplace, but then like, what is actually
a date? Can I go over to somebody's house for a barbecue? Can
we get drunk? Can we go home from the Christmas party. That's why
companies don't have Christmas parties anymore, because the guy's drunk in the hot hot
hot congo line, you know, and then bad shit happens. I think
every Christmas party I've been to, someone's gotten some type of reprimand oh reprimand,
oh yeah or something. And that's why a lot of companies are cutting
that out, just for budgetary reasons, but also for HR violations. Yeah,
that comes down to policing. You're never going to be able to police
that. People are going to live their lives. I think there's an element.
I think there's an element of it is a little bit of a dual
life, right, and there is there is a bit of You can think
of it like a superhero or going to war or whatever imagery you want to
use. But you wake up in the morning, you put on your suit
like Clark Kent, you put on your armor, you go to war.
That's a different type of person or facade than you are in your personal life,
right, and so there already is this duality with work. Yeah you
might know, you might know how they decorate their desk, but you have
no idea what their apartment looks like, or their condo or what they wear.
Not at work, which is casual, isn't necessarily what they were on
Saturday. We're on a date. You're making me think. So we had
my former company this annual softball game every summer, and everyone would show up.
It was super casual. It was really nice. It was the social
event of the season. But I always found it so interesting because you would
see all the tattoos. Oh yeah, I always covered up. I was
like, he has a tattoo, she has a tattoo. I had no
idea. And it's this completely different side of people, right and so,
and it's like, were they in Tijuana? Were then Cabo? What is
the story of that too? Yeah, that's a whole How drunk were they?
Yeah? How drunk were they? Oh? Yeah? Yeah? Oh
yeah. So So when it comes to when do I need to announce,
it's kind of like when are you going to tell your parents? Like,
when are you going to tell your family? Because if it's something that's serious
down that path and it's going toward living together or something like that. Then
I think that problem. Isn't that always the out that you have if you
get called in and somebody's like, somebody says you guys doing somebody it's not
and you just say it's not that serious. So we don't like, like
that's the weird thing, Like, at what point do the bosses call people
in and been like, is something going on here that we should know about?
With you too that I don't know that. I would like to think,
Yeah, we're not here to necessarily give the hr answers, but we're
like, these are the questions that that you need to ask. And it's
making me think because what I would like to think is that it doesn't matter
unless it's affecting you at work somehow. Maybe you're on competing to where you're
not allowed to share information, or maybe one person reports to the other and
it puts you in a compromised position when it comes to promotion decisions. You're
more likely to share the information if you want him to like you, right,
or if you want him to ask you out. Like, I don't
think that's a good barrier either. All Right, we have to take a
quick break because I got to pay for all of these possible HR violations around
here. I'm here with Jaqueline Beck. We will be back right after this.
Okay, we are back. And as I said at the top,
and I've said on this podcast before, generations of people, if you ask
them where they met other than a bar, the number one answer was probably
we worked together on something, we met at work, or he was a
sales guy who dropped by and blah blah, blah blah. My parents met.
They both worked at IBM, and IBM was a very conservative but very
huge come back in the sixties and seventies. IBM was like the biggest,
most successful company in the world. They made the choice that people didn't want
personal computers. They were wrong. It's not that big a company anymore,
but back in the day it was the thing. My mother did not work
directly for my father. She was part of the secretarial pool, which I
don't think you can even say that anymore. She was miss IBM, which
props to mom. But mostly what I get out of that is big conservative
companies had beauty pageants among the female staff. It is I mean, that's
the mad Men era. It's wild to think that. But when I think
about that now, so many women would kill they want that. There's a
lot of women who want that. There was a woman who famously sued in
New York City some investment bank because she was the only one in the office
who didn't get hit on, and it made her feel uncomfortable. Everybody else
it made her feel it was like otherism going on. She felt bad because
everybody else was. It made her feel like a unattractive and she sued and
she won like they settled with her. So it's fascinating. You know,
there's a lot of people no matter how conservative the company is, and companies
are getting less and less traditional and conservative. The IBM old day's dark shirt
suit, white shirt that's closed, toad shoes, that's still out in a
lot of the country. But a lot of people are like, you know
what, I want some sort of environment where I can show my personality.
Yere I can show the creator, where I can show my tattoo, Like
if we're in the softball game, can I tie my shirt up in a
little haltered like? Can I? I don't know, Like a lot of
people like I have to wall off eighty percent of my personality eighty percent of
the time. That's rough, you know it is, And that to me
is authenticity, right. You want to show up as your authentic self,
you want to show up as your best self, and I'd like to think
that that is the same in every environment. There's also a practicality about it,
where yeah, you're not going to necessarily roll into work, because there's
an element of having to garner respect and work your way up the hierarchy in
the latter and to do that, you need to manage the perception of you
and your personal brand. And when you think about the people who excel in
corporate environments, they tend to be the ones that have their shit together.
They're the ones who are organized, They're the ones who communicate really effectively.
They're the ones who do what they say and say what they do. And
so there's an element of self management I think where I am totally forth showing
up in an authentic way. But it's also context and knowing what's appropriate where.
And it's interesting because I think about dating and relationships. Everything you do
in business is a relationship, right. It all comes down to what do
you believe? What are your values? How what is my message? How
am I going to communicate it? How much can you be trusted? How
authentic are you? How good are you communicating what you want? Yeah?
All of it. They are relationships. It is and there's an entire body
of science right now on emotional intelligence and how it improves outcomes in office environments.
I used to do you know when I would hire people? I was
always trying because there's just questions you cannot ask, And there's so many questions
that I'm like, how why can't I ask that? Why can't I?
Like? Can I see the list of prescription medications that you're on? Please?
I think it matters, Like have you ever you know what kind of
anger management issues do? I kind of want to know, like do you
have a girlfriend, boyfriend? Married? Like I want to know how stable
you are if you're just like I'm out every night and whatever, Like I
want to know. I wonder how many drinks you had this weekend? Like
I say, you're talking to responsibility I'm taking, but it's wrong. Like
I've tried to guess every which way and I'm like, huh, she's attractive,
which means that she'll get a lot of dates, so she'll be happier
in her social life or the other way around. I'm like, Oh,
she's unattractive, she's not gonna be bothered with dating, She'll just work here.
Like it's terrible the math I've done on all of this. I'm never
right. I've gotten it wrong every possible way. And not just women too,
guys too. I'm like, he's not interested in girls, and so
he doesn't care, you know. And then you're like, oh, somebody
who's not dating at all. It's like, Oh, they're a happily married
mom of two and then they're in a very serious relationship with the two kids,
and that's there for so I basically just like hope for the best or
whatever. But every once in a while something comes up and I'm like,
why couldn't I find that out on a job interview. So it's ancillary,
but it's related. A lot of companies are using interest assessments to do things
like that. So there are emotional intelligence assessments, there are behavioral assessments,
thinking style assessments, motivational assessments, so that you can try and get a
clearer picture of the person you're hiring before you hire them, and you should
hire that company before you go on a date too, to assess your date,
because it is the same thing. Everybody can be fine in a moment
or for a short period time or several years, and then one relationship and
everything goes bad. Yeah, where everything loses somebody loses their mind. So
there's really you know, everything's a roll of the dice with the relationships.
You said everything is a relationship. I agree with you. Somebody could have
a perfectly normal life going on and then they have drama at home, you
know, they get divorced. This stuff used to be taboo to even talk
about in corporate America, but now those companies are getting smart and they are
bringing in as guest speakers. It's not just the fitness people whatever they're bringing
in the relationship people. They're bringing in confidence people. I do speeches all
the time where I do communication and confidence. You know, because somebody came
to one of my shows and like he kind of knows what he's talking about.
I don't know what I'm talking about, but thank you for the money.
Oh it's not when it comes to pre registering someone when they're yeah,
I know, but I'm always like, you never know how what forks in
the road are going to make somebody go a different way. And so these
companies that are trying to control behavior outside of the workplace when they really don't
know a good handle on it inside the workplace. That's rough. That makes
me think of parenting, Yeah, because you think of different types of parents.
And inevitably, when I was growing up, the people who had to
totally overbearing helicopter parents who said no to everything were the biggest drug addicts were
the one who smoked the most pot who were the ones who drank the most.
And when I look at the people who had a longer leash, they
had the opportunity to kind of self regulate and decide what was right and what
was wrong, and experiment and push the boundaries and say, oh, I
don't want to do that, And I think it's similar. Right, No
one's going to be able to control everything. It's about what's in your control.
The people that have always been the best people to work with, and
for me, I always looked back and thought I didn't know anything about their
life outside of work. They just go, they show up to the job
and they do what they're suppose to anything about it. But you don't get
as close to those people which do you prefer. I think you want to
have a relationship, like you said, with the people you work with,
and you want a care and you want to understand their feeling. You do,
but it's always after, it's always hindsight. It's like, oh my
god, that was awesome. I don't know anything girl woman. She was
in her twenties. Then I guess she was a girl. She was an
actress for me and a play as a director. For years she worked with
me, and she was one of the only ones who I really didn't know
anything about. Five years after it, she invites me to her wedding and
I go to her. What She's become one of my closest friends. Now.
I went to her wedding and I'm like, she's so valued that I
treated her like that. I just let her do her thing. I respected
it. I didn't get involved in any drama. I didn't ask her whatever
that. She's like, he respects me on this level, and now I
want him to be my friend. Once it was long over with and I
didn't think about it at the time, I was like, I didn't think
I was that close to her because I didn't know anything about her. So
you're kind of caught between that you want to show that you care about your
employees or the people you work with. How are you, how is your
weekend, what'd you do for the holidays? How you being blah blah blah.
And then there's the people who just show up high, good morning,
here's the job or whatever, and you're sort of always caught in between.
Yeah, there's that natural tension. Yeah, and I do think there's a
middle ground. I think there's a middle ground between overfamiliarity and having zero personal
relationship. And you know, it's a really tough bulls eye to hit because
on the other hand of having too much information is almost toxicity and a false
sense of loyalty, right, because a lot of times in organization people are
like, we're a family, but I don't know about your family. My
family can be toxic sometimes, Right, you say stuff that you wouldn't necessarily
say to other people. You two things you wouldn't necessarily do, And the
same can develop in the workplace where you have a brother sister relationship with someone
that really is unhealthy, like let alone if it's outside of the workplace,
right, And it's the same sort of thing, and so it's kind of
weaving that needle of I want to show up, I want to get my
stuff done. I want to put my head down and be efficient, but
I also want to be human, right, And so it's like there's a
fine line between like shit chat, elevator talk high and like some caring areata.
You've had bosses, do you want to be asked how is your weekend?
Or you're like don't, let's let me just do my job, or
it depends on the boss. I suppose Yeah, it definitely depends on the
boss, because I've had some mean bosses. But you know, it depends
on like what intentions they're asking me for. Well that's the thing. Is
it like prying or is it manners? And I'm always terrible this small talk
because I sometimes ask because I think you're supposed to and I really don't give
a shit about your weekend. But I and that will come through, that
will bleed through. I know, I think so, but I'm trying.
I think I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to ask how is your day?
Get home safe? Like you know, all this stuff that I've seen
on TV, and but I really don't care. And then I'm like I
feel like I'm asking because I think they want me to. And then maybe
it's like I don't want to talk to you about anything outside of the work.
I never know. You know, there should be a form you fill
out, here's the things you can ask me about. Well, what you're
really talking about is boundaries, right, But everybody's boundaries are different, and
some people act like you don't care because you do pay more attention to the
high maintenance people. Squeaky wheel gets the greed correct, and so the people
who head down doing their job are no problems at all. They are somehow
like I don't even get noticed, they don't say anything to me, they
spend no time with me, and like what. So that's a hard balance
too, and that breeds discontent because people say, oh, this person is
loud, this person is the squeaky wheel. They're not doing as much work
as I'm doing. Yet I'm not the one being compensated or I'm not the
one that's being recognized or promoted for my work. And so to me,
that comes down, and that's incumbent on a manager or a leader to understand
their people. And you know, physical appearance for a man, what is
it statistically the CEOs are all six two six, like they're three inches.
I believe there is a correlation between height and seniority because it's like, think
a physical dominance, people gravitate to that person. But it's sort of like
somebody, we did a study on this. Somebody's on here this podcast,
I don't know. It's six seven years ago, and there was a study
that came out that NFL quarterbacks and high level college quarterbacks were disproportionately attractive.
And the reason for that was back when they were like fourteen, the good
looking kid was the popular kid, and the popular kid got the ball.
Yeah, and so he got to play quarterback. So you had the opportunity
and so that never Yeah, so they get the opportunity to do it,
and that probably isn't you know. The attractive male or female. They might
get judged a certain way more, but they might also get away with shit
more. They might be like, oh, we like to have that guy
around. He's cute and whatever. She's hot and she's it's both ways.
I see a lot of women comedians that I know, and they're like,
it's not fair that everybody, you know, this judgment And I'm like,
you're only getting a lot of these gigs because you look attractive on the flyer
and it's noticed, and so you're getting it both ways. You know.
I hear a lot of women actresses once they get in their fifties like Hollywood's
not fair and they want to hire us. Well, it wasn't fair when
you were in your twenties. You got all the jobs just because you were
good looking and you got you know, that was a big thing. And
so you can't have it both ways. Same within the office place, we
cannot pretend we're robots. We can't tend your emotionless because one of the emotions
that you want somebody to bring to the work environment is passion. And somebody
who's passionate for their work generally has interest and curiosity beyond the workplace that they're
really interested in. And it's dynamic, and it's dynamic. You know.
The one thing that I want for anybody I work with or who works for
me is that they care. What does that look like to you? To
me, it looks like if something, And that's a good thing too.
There's a lot of fake caring. There's a lot of people who don't care
about details, like asking about weekends, Yeah, like me asking about weekends.
There's your weekend. Yeah, you know, I want to show that
they care meaning that. And it's not just like staying five minutes later or
coming five minutes early. It's that you can tell they are vested in the
outcome of the project the day the assignment. They get excited when good things
happen, they get disappointed with it. But then again, you're judging somebody
on their poker face. But what does that look like? Like, how
can you really tell someone cares behind the poker face? Like what actions?
I don't know. You know, I'm not the best one to tear about
that. Same with on dating. Yeah, some people just are not that
expressive, and some people are not going to do a cartwheel over every little
thing, and some people do and some people cry at every jet. I
mean, we're you're dealing with trying to psychologically analyze another person in relationship.
Again, whether it's somebody you work with or for, or it's somebody in
a day, there's a lot of similarities. Well, it's all interpersonal dynamics.
That yes, it is all in personal dynamics. And that's making me
think of the idiom actions are louder than words, And there's a whole body
of science around communication where seven percent of communication is words, thirty eight percent
of communication its tone, and the balance is body language. So if you
think about it, over half of all communication is movement. And if you
extrapolate that, if you're talking about caring in the workplace, if you're talking
about being a human in the workplace, if you're talking about authenticity, which
we were talking about, there's also this element of aligning your message, your
intent, what you say, with what you do, your actions, and
your behaviors, and then being consistent with it. Because you talk about relationships,
so much of that goes back to safety and psychological safety, and what
breeds safety, it's consistency. And that's whether you're a manager, that's whether
you're a leader, that's whether you're a colleague. If you're reliable and you
expect and know what the outcome is going to be and what that person is
going to deliver, nine times out of ten, you're going to be satisfied
with their performance. And then there's also this sort of you know, doggy
dog reality show environment in a workplace where you're forming alliances and you want to
trust and somebody wants your job and whatever you bring up the words and the
actions. I had a girl I was dating once say to me. She's
like, actions are so much important with words, But I got to say,
you got some really good words. Your actions suck. I'm like,
they make up? Am I doing? She's like, it's close my good.
They have some value, you know, saying the right thing at the
right time does have huge value can diffuse a lot of things. So back
to the if you were going to get into a relationship in the workplace,
Yeah, I think you have to look at it like anything else. It's
probably I think it would probably be worse to get into a relationship with somebody
lives in your apartment building or your condo building, depends where you live.
Well, what does that mean? I lived in New York City for thirteen
years. I don't think I knew Maybe I knew one neighbor me too,
but I'm very introverted. I agree that's not good either. But then it's
like, then you are risk the chance that when you do not it doesn't
work out. You're seeing them in the elevator with somebody else, And I'm
not sure you agree. Oh really, I think work is worse. I
disagree because I think there's there's anticipation. You wake up every morning, you're
laying in bed, You're staring at the ceiling. Oh my god, I
need to go sit next to Sally. Oh my god, I need to
go sit next to Bob. Yeah, what am I going to do?
And then you're getting dressed and you're thinking about it, and you're brushing your
teeth and you're brushing your hair, and they seem so happy after the weekend,
right, yeah, and you don't want to ask how their weekend was.
It's amazing we get together at all, any of us well, And
then you think about it. I mean, so much of your life is
tied to work. It's your livelihood. It's how you support yourself, it's
how you support your family, it's your sense of purpose for people, it's
it's your sense of motivation, it's why you get out of bed in the
morning. And then if all of a sudden you muddy that with a really
bad date or a really bad relationship, I know it could put everything up
in smoke. Yes, just hook up, don't go on. There's a
lot more companies now that are Maybe there aren't, but I think there are
that are between what one hundred and a thousand employees. Those are considered small
medium companies. Yeah, if you got brought into there, how would you
set a policy or how would you tell people? Listen, we're all humans,
we're all feelings. Here's the best way to approach interoffice and out of
work relationships? Are there like a couple of things that you're like, this
is the best way to go about at least communicating to each other for the
employees or the business, because I probably have the business. Well, the
business has to relate it to the employees. Yeah, well, I don't
want to have an I don't want to work in any place that has a
no compliment policy. Here's here's the thing. Businesses are in the business of
protecting their asses right and protecting their downside, and so I think they're always
going to air on the side of ultra conservatism because they have to, and
that's what their attorneys are going to recommend that they do. That's what all
their consultants are gonna recommend that they have to do. I also think there's
a practicality to it, right, So you have your on paper rules and
then there's the unspoken rules of you know, if this is going to happen,
don't show about it, don't go around parading it. Have judgment,
don't go like for a quickie in the breakroom, right, you know,
be smart about that with Jennifer and marketing this weekend High five guys. I
mean, there's a lot of that, but there can't be anymore. I
know there can't be anymore. There really can't. And I think there's just
so much reputational risk, not only for the business but also for the employees.
What is the downside of telling somebody you look pretty today, pretty,
not hot, not you look pretty today? Is there any scenario where that's
bad? That's probably a fireable effense. Oh, okay, tell you a
story. Oh story time with John. So. When I was twenty two,
I was an analyst on Wall Street and I went to a meeting in
Miami, actually, and it was me at a table with a bunch of
fifty to sixty five year old men, and I was by far the youngest.
I was the only woman. Maybe six seven people at the table.
They're all drinking. My dad gave me the piece of advice in college which
I still take, which is, if you feel uncomfortable have a glass of
Seltzer with a little bit of lime, so they think you're drinking, but
you're not. So I was drinking Seltzer's and these guys were getting at it,
not my colleague, but the other guys. And one just stops in
the middle of the conversation and turns to me and goes, are you a
model? And I'm like blindsided my colleague. It was like you could have
cut the tension with a knife. He had no idea what to do.
And I love this guy, He's fabulous. And I just sat there and
I said, well, I model every day and excel because I make excel
models. And it diffused the tension with humor. But that's a situation that's
uncomfortable only because so you probably took it. You didn't probably mind the physical
compliment. You probably looked at it like no offense to the models out there,
that somehow that belittled your professional skills. No, no, it was
it was about being called out for something other than I wanted to be recognized
for in that context. In that context, my physical appearance, which by
the way, I don't think I look like a model, but my physical
appearance was the lie I told you that you were one of the most attractive
pregnant people I've seen. I hope that's not offensive. You have a glow.
You have that glow they talk about some women don't do well with pregnancy.
I appreciate that, but in that context in the work environment, I
want to be recognized for my capabilities. I want to be recognized for my
skills. I want to be recognized for my talents. And I do think
on some level, when you bring up appearance, that belittles everything else you've
done. It belittles your intelligence, it belittles kind of a lot of hard
work that has gone into, you know, getting to where you were.
And I worked my ass off in college and through internships to get the big
job that I wanted to get. And so I think that's the subtext to
this. Yes it is. It is no, because that's the thing too.
He's like, she clearly cared enough to do her makeup like that to
be noticed. Okay, but here's here's the question. Yeah, if there
was a woman in the workplace who didn't put makeup on, what would you
think you asking me as a man or somebody who works with Let's okay,
you own a business. Yeah right. Let's say you are hiring a female.
She shows up, her hair's not brush, she doesn't have vyliner on,
she doesn't have masscaron. What would you think in twenty twenty three?
I would think it's just not important to her. Okay, I wouldn't think
she doesn't care. Sadly, that's the norm. Now, sorry, you
got an eyeliner on, ariana mascara. So there's something. I look at
it like, I want somebody to present what they believe to be the best
version of themselves. So I put makeup in the same category as showering.
Okay, a little bit, not a full face. You come to work
with a full face and makeup. If anybody cared about my appearance, I
probably would like you. Why don't you care about Europeans? I do?
Nobody else does? I U said all that. Don't you want to put
eyeliner and a smoky ion for yourself if that enhanced my appearance? Sure?
But I look at your like I'm like I get told I'm smart and funny
all the time. Tell me I'm cute, That's all I want to hear.
No, I understand that, and I know I'm being intentionally challenging because
you've heard it before. Well, I think it's a girl who doesn't hear
before. I think she wants to hear it. No, it's not that
I think there's a double standard. I just think there's a double standard.
I think there's this expectation that if, especially in corporate environments, right,
if a woman doesn't show up completely put together, right, there's a negative
perception put on her. If a guy doesn't, he just is disheveled.
And it's funny. And that's bob. I don't know why I keep using
the word bob, but you know, I there is this double standard,
and I was just being intentionally challenging to Yeah, but there is this thing
like, yeah, of course I'm going to show up to a business meeting
in eyeliner and mascara because that's the expectation. Yes, I want to present
it for myself, but that's also the norm. That's the expectation. The
cultural norm is not for a man to show up with the full face of
making I know a lot of women who are attorneys, courtroom attorneys. Half
of them believe if I look my best or look the way I would out
in the world, I'm not gonna get taken seriously. And half of them
are like, it's a power that I have and I'm going to manipulate man
with men with my tight suit and my makeup. Perception is reality, right,
And some of them are like, it's just how they choose to fight
the battle, and it is a battle. It's a battle, it's a
battle. And look, I'm I'm not advocating one way. I think everyone
should do what makes them feel the best. Absolutely, I think there are
certain levels of appropriateness in workplace, et cetera. All I'm saying is that
there's a certain expectation for how you present yourself. And I do think that
there's a double standard for women in the world. Don't tell somebody she's pretty
at work or that she is pretty. That's bad that you look pretty today?
Does that imply you don't look pretty every day? Like if somebody looked
like, clearly got their hair done, Like, can we say that?
I think it matters. I want to be able to say that as a
dude. I think that's where personal relationship comes in. Because I've been really
fortunate. I've made some of my very, very very best friends at work,
and a lot of them are men, and a lot of them will
be like, oh, you got a haircut. It looks good, and
I'm like, thanks, That to me is friendly. If someone I had
a less familiar relationship said that to me, I'd be like, Oh,
that's creepy. Why is he noticing my haircut? So I think there's an
I think this all comes back to contacting the individual relationship. No way to
understand the asual relationship. Arianna, what do you think? I don't know,
Like, I just want I don't. I don't know. I would.
I think we should as society. We're worse off that we can't pretend
we pretend that we don't notice each other's appearance. I agree with her.
I think it depends on what type of relationship you have with the person yours.
You work together, that's the relationship, that's it. You share office.
Yeah, but there's different levels of working together. You get your you
suddenly go blonde and you come in on Monday and be like, Wow,
your hair you look awesome? Can I say that? Yeah? Because I
know you and I'm like I feel in same with Ben, Like I'm comfortable
with Ben where it's like if he's compliments me, it's friendly. It's not
creel well, that's not I don't think that's a compliment. It's not well
noticing something that you clearly did to enhance your appearance, and I'm acknowledging that.
Can I do that? I know I get contact fired in twenty twenty
three, No, but but it does because what gets people fired in twenty
twenty three is the wrong context. Let's say someone were to say something uncomfortable
to me to the point that I had to go to HR. I need
to feel really uncomfortable. Because you also have to think there's a lot of
women there that don't want to screw up their career trajectory by reporting things either,
which I don't advocate for that either, right, I think if something
happens, you should definitely report it. But I'm only saying that to mean
if one of my friends said something to me like, oh, I'm a
brunette. Oh you dyed your hair blonde. It looks really good, I'd
like thanks. I wouldn't even dawn on me to go report that. So
why would he ever get fired for saying that? I got interviewed morning television
thing a couple years ago, and before we went on air, I didn't
know the anchor who was interviewing me, and she came out and I said,
oh my god, that is a super cute dress. Doesn't say anything.
We go and do the interview, thank you whatever. About two months
later she emails me and she goes, I really appreciate you noticed that dress.
Most people wouldn't say anything. I liked that you did that. She
wasn't hitting on me, She wasn't doing any it just like dawned on her.
But you weren't commenting on her. You were commenting on the article.
Well, the only reason it was a super cute dress was because she made
it look super cute. I get it. I'm smart. How you pick
on the clothing it works. I wasn't hitting on her, but it really
was a super huge dress for morning news. You're strategic, Brian, Well,
I mean I think you have to be. If you comment on hair,
jewelry, or dress. I think you are strategic. You're not commenting
on our body parts. You're not like, oh man, you look you
look like you lost eight Can I say that you look like that's okay?
I will. I will say this. I once said to somebody. I
once said to somebody, oh my gosh, you lost so much weight,
you look great, and this was not in a work context. I subsequently
found out she was very ill. I know you can, and now I
won't unless, like I'm one hundred percent confident and know that person really well.
Like that broke my heart when I found that out. It's not easy,
which is why I'm glad the world has people like you to at least
point us in the direction, which, by the way, behavior see a
lot of these questions, you're like, I'm not sure either, but the
conversation works it out. Yeah. But that's that's the thing with all of
this, right, No one has the answer. If anyone's an expert says
they're an expert in this in that they have a one size fits all solution,
that's all bs. The skill is to know the questions. These are
the questions that people have, and that's what everything goes back to. That's
what goes back to dating and finding your right match. That's what goes back
to finding your right match and an employer and a company and figuring out how
you're going to grow in your career. It's all about knowing the right questions,
knowing when to ask them, and how to ask them of yourself.
I'm just going to hire a bunch of fat guys. Fuck it all right,
in the interest of time. Yes, this is your first time on
the podcast. We'll have you back again because we have to test out all
these theories we as I warned you, we play something called worst date or
first date, so you has to either give us the worst date you've ever
had or the greatest first date you've ever had. Your choice could give both.
Sure, all right, So the best first date was my husband.
Props to him. Props to him. We went to a in the West
Village. He chased to be around the office and then West Village and then
I found you about the water. Cool. No, but my best first
date was my husband. Our parents actually set us up so old school,
but now I'm in the same way as the office. And then my worst
first date, which it's hard for me to see it as a worst date
because it is just so funny looking back at it. I met this guy
on like hinge or something back in the day, and we were in New
York City. I was at work and at the time, my hours were
late, so I wasn't leaving until about eight to go meet him. For
a drink, and he texted me like three times in the middle of the
day to keep moving it forward, forward, forward forward, and I'm like
I can't. Okay, sure, I'll do this fine. Finally, I
felt like coerced into meeting him at seven, so I just like left work
early and went. He was the most fidgety. He was doing this thing
with his mouth like a lizard, like sticking his tongue out, like not
like erotic Miley Cyris style, no, like like a lizard like. He
was like catching a fly. It was very weird, and he was fidgety.
Part of me thinks he was on something, but he was fidgety.
And then he's we're chit chatting. I could already tell this is going to
be ridiculous. He asks me to stand up and turn around. Oh,
and he goes, you know, because I guess I was sitting down.
He goes, I didn't get a nice look when you walked in. Do
you mind standing up and turning around? And I'm like, no, I'm
not doing that. Oh Jesus, He's start Oh my gosh, she's he
launched into all of his neurosis that he's talking about with It was hilarious.
I mean, it was just I felt like I was in a movie.
I felt like someone was writing this for me and I was being punked.
And the best part is like fifteen minutes in, I'm just downing glasses of
wine because I'm like, I might as well milk this where all it's worth.
And he turns to me, He's like, you know what, you're
pretty good. I'll buy you dinner if you want it. I said,
look pretty good. I go, look, I'm drunk. Yeah, I'm
happy to take a free meal. Yea, but this isn't going anywhere.
I just want to be really cool, take it to go. And then
of course you got super defensive and yeah, like storm, can you do
a little spin around for me? Sweetie? Yeah? Not good? Yeah,
talk about nineteen fifties. Yeah right. Yeah. So that was my
worst date, but it was kind of also a really great date because it's
hilarious, it's funny. They're all fun if they're good, they're funny.
All right, this was fun. Tell us where to everybody where they can
find you, your podcast, your business, all that stuff. Sure,
So, Jacqueline Beck Consulting is my business. You can find us at www
dot Jacquelinebeckconsulting dot com or on Instagram at Jacquelinebeckconsulting dot com or email Brian Info
at Jacquelinebeckconsulting dot com. And then obviously please check out my my podcast Worked
Up with Jacqueline Beck. You can find it on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you enjoy your shows. Now, I've had about nine different Jaquelines on
the podcast, and they spell it nine different ways, and they always are
very head in the dark about people are like, spell it j A C
L y N, Right, that's not the number one. It's not it's
the Jack, it's the It's the Jacqueline Smith way. So Charlie is there
you go. So the burden is on you to say that it is the
the the Jacqueline Smith who might have been the hottest ever. So there you
go. Props to you, Jacqueline Smith as far as us as always,
not just the Worked Up Podcast, which is Jaqueline's podcast, but our podcast,
Like, share, follow, Please review this podcast reviews me a lot
in the podcasting ecosystem. Go to Great Love Debate dot com. Our tenth
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you're going? Oh? I echoed, there you go about that? You
go because you want to. You have no professional obligation to go. No,
I want to be there. Okay. Those are on sale at Boca
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as always at the Great Love Debate, we never stop making love.
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