1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:16,160 Made a decision. Peace Sonny sun On Iheadvision. Nice night. Hey everybody, 2 00:00:16,199 --> 00:00:21,239 welcome to our very special episode Thursday. Special guest we have in studio 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:27,760 is Tany Laura. She is a host of Recovery Rocks podcast and she has 4 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:33,719 a book called dry Humping. I love that title. Well, thank you 5 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:37,280 so much, thanks for coming on. I we appreciate it. We know 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,399 you're on the East Coast and we're out here on the West Coast. Yes, 7 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,320 yeah, so, uh let's talk about I'm mixed. I want to 8 00:00:46,359 --> 00:00:49,799 talk about your book, Dry Humping. Can you tell us a little bit? 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,920 But that's about yeah, definitely. So you know, when I quit, 10 00:00:55,799 --> 00:00:59,479 when I quit drinking, the thought of dating, let alone hooking up 11 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:06,799 about alcohol really scared the hell out of me. So this is the book 12 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:11,359 that I needed when I was newly sober. I mean, this is the 13 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,200 book that I needed when I was still drinking. Let's be real, but 14 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,280 this is definitely the book that that I needed. And you know it's it's 15 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,799 structured. It's in three parts. The first part is about you know, 16 00:01:23,879 --> 00:01:30,560 being single and dating. The middle part is about sex and figuring out like 17 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,319 reconnecting with your body and your sexuality. Without alcohol. And the last part 18 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,480 is about being in a relationship. It's about communication and setting boundaries and advocating 19 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:44,799 for your own pleasure and and all of these things that you know, we 20 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:49,519 were not taught, especially as women, that I really dig in. Uh 21 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,359 as a journalist, you know, it's not a memoir, It's a journalistic 22 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:59,920 perspective, an investigation on the role that liquid courage plays in our love lives. 23 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:06,319 How long have you been sober? A little over eight years now? 24 00:02:06,439 --> 00:02:12,759 Now, can you tell us a little bit about like your story, you 25 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:15,439 know, what was your drinking like? Because I think that I think that 26 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:21,719 you know, we talk about I was on Tawny's show, I think you 27 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,120 know that and it was awesome. It's a great podcast that she does with 28 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:30,400 her partner friend partner Lisa, who wrote a book called Girl Walks out of 29 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:37,319 a Bar. So they both have books about getting about sobriety, and we 30 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,719 on this show talk a lot about addiction. And I mean, this is 31 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,439 kind of an intervention on Lynette. I'm just kidding. That's why I'm here. 32 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:52,080 Okay, I understand now, No, But you know, I think, 33 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,439 Lynette, I think that for a lot of women, even if they 34 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,840 even if they don't have an alcohol problem, rely on alcohol to date and 35 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,800 just to feel comfortable. And some of the things that you mentioned just about 36 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,400 advocating for your you know, your own pleasure and figuring out what works for 37 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:14,879 you. I think that's difficult. I think some of the reasons we drink 38 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:17,960 is to avoid that, is to feel more comfortable, is to feel more 39 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,800 like disassociated, dissociated from our bodies, right, so that we can, 40 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,159 Yeah, I think allow feel more sexy and be more see ourselves as more 41 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,719 like crazy in bed. And I have a lot of friends in sobriety who 42 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:35,800 told me that back when they were drinking, even you know, married friends, 43 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,599 they were like, oh, that's how I like. We were kind 44 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:42,599 of crazy and you know, use sex toys and stuff. And then as 45 00:03:42,639 --> 00:03:46,439 soon as you're sober, you're like, oh god, I can't do that, 46 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:50,639 you know. So, I think your book and it's really important. 47 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,039 So, yeah, tell us a little bit about your story. Yeah, 48 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,759 so, and I I appreciate you saying all of that. It's it's one 49 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,360 hundred percent correct. I'll tell you my story in a bit. I'll just 50 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,800 add on what you said. Yeah. Initially, initially I wrote this book 51 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,159 for it was written through a lens of for people in recovery, like myself. 52 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:15,639 But the more that I researched liquid courage and alcohol with sex, dating, 53 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:20,560 and relationships, I realized that this is not just a people in recovery 54 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:27,360 conversation. This is a conversation for anyone who dates, anyone who's in a 55 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:33,120 relationship, anyone who drinks alcohol or has consumed alcohol to you know, rely 56 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,439 on that liquid courage to get through a difficult conversation or try something new in 57 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,199 the bedroom. So it's it's written through more of a sober, curious lens. 58 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,560 You know, I'm I am not anti alcohol. I'm not a prohibitionist 59 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,079 by any means. It really is. I am. I'm trying to bring 60 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,279 back prohibition. You know, we need people fighting on both sides, Jephany 61 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,680 So, but it's yeah, So I just I wanted to add that. 62 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,199 So like if people are listening and they're just like, oh, but I'm 63 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:11,920 not sober, it's totally fine. So you know, I was a stereotypical 64 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,879 party girl bartender back in the day. I mean it was you picture like 65 00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:21,759 this young young girl going wooh, dancing on the bars and all that stuff. 66 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,279 That was me I was either bartending or on the other side of the 67 00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:29,240 bar or dancing on it. Where were you living? Were you in New 68 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:31,920 York? I was not in New York. I actually I grew up in 69 00:05:32,079 --> 00:05:36,759 Texas. I grew up in a small town in Texas. And I moved 70 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:43,319 to New York June of twenty fifteen to pursue writing. And I got sober 71 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,279 in November of twenty fifteen. So that was that was None of this was 72 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:53,920 part of the plan, you know, But you know I I I was. 73 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,439 I tell you that I would come from the bartender, party girl background 74 00:05:57,439 --> 00:06:00,160 to really paint that picture and just show that that was my whole world. 75 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,040 That was where my friends were, That's where my hookups were, That's where 76 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:11,759 my romantic and sexual relationships began and ended. Mut'st be real. The bar 77 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,560 was my whole life, you know it. Really being a drunk party girl 78 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:24,120 was my whole identity. And I never thought to question my relationship with alcohol 79 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,519 because I hung out with every All my friends drink the same way that I 80 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,519 did. But once I moved to New York, that's really when it began 81 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,480 to shift. I hung out with people like I quit the bar scene. 82 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,720 I was taking writing classes and yoga, and just like you know, I 83 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:44,720 was still drinking, but it was very different because I was hanging out with 84 00:06:44,759 --> 00:06:47,480 people who had like one or two drinks, and it was just it was 85 00:06:48,079 --> 00:06:51,879 I was like, what is this? These people just stop after two, 86 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:58,480 Like what are they doing? But you know, there was one one day 87 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:02,920 in particular that I'm I'm sitting in a pub with some friends and we were 88 00:07:02,959 --> 00:07:06,399 talking about why we moved to New York and how we don't have enough time 89 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:12,360 to do the things we wanted to do here. Mine was writing and I'm 90 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:15,079 just like, I don't have enough time to write. And then something just 91 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,879 really clicked. When I left the pub, I was like, I just 92 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:23,040 spent four hours in a pub talking about how I don't have time to write. 93 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:29,480 Maybe there's something there. So my thirtieth birthday was around the corner, 94 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,279 and I actually I gave up alcohol for a full year and I started a 95 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:38,720 blog and the blog held me accountable for not drinking, and the not drinking 96 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:43,120 held me accountable for the writing, and it was just this really beautiful accountability, 97 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:47,120 very SYMBII. Again, this is twenty fifteen. We didn't have words 98 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:53,639 like sober, curious back then, but that's definitely what I was. So, 99 00:07:54,759 --> 00:07:57,639 you know, that year comes to an end and my friends are like, 100 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,040 are you going to drink again? And I was like, I don't 101 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,199 think so, Like I'm I'm good, you know, like that that year 102 00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:09,399 without alcohol, I was just I was. I was blogging regularly, I 103 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,040 was starting to do freelance work. I was. I got into therapy, 104 00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:18,839 and I really started to unpack why I was drinking the way that I drank. 105 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,120 I was like, there was I was not attracted to alcohol in the 106 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:28,879 same way. So yeah, I have not drank since. And it's been 107 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:35,000 over eight years now, and the book really came out of that whole that 108 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,120 whole chapter of my life of you know, drinking and having drunk hookups and 109 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:45,320 then getting sober and then dating and learning how to have sex again, especially 110 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,559 coming from somebody who didn't have some kind of rock bottom moment where you're like, 111 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,759 oh my gosh, drinking is going to ruin my life. You know, 112 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:58,000 I've got kids, some things like like like some people have, it 113 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,080 came out of you just a decision, which is great, But I'm saying 114 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,919 like for those of us who are like, yeah, I need to make 115 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,759 that decision, but like, oh my god, trying to date without alcohol 116 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,320 that I feel like that would drive a lot of people back to drink. 117 00:09:15,759 --> 00:09:18,639 Like, how was it, especially if you were coming from that's how you 118 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,480 operated with alcohol helping you with that? Like, what tell us about the 119 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:28,159 first time, you know, did you try to date sober guys? Were 120 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,799 you just? Were you super uncomfortable the first time? I want to hear 121 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:39,399 the nitty gritty yes, and yes. I didn't necessarily start dating sober people. 122 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:46,440 I was just I was I realized that I was okay with with dating 123 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:54,240 people who drank occasionally. If you're getting wasted, I can't date you if 124 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,879 you're you know, if you if like people smelling like alcohol, that was 125 00:09:56,919 --> 00:10:01,240 really tough for me, or kissing if they smell whiskey and cigarettes, it 126 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:05,120 was like so triggering. But if you're having a glass of wine while we're 127 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,200 sharing a pizza, that's that was fine with me. And everyone has their 128 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,399 own version of that, you know. I was comfortable with that in the 129 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,799 same way I was able to just I was able to stop alcohol, stop 130 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:22,440 drinking alcohol. Some people need medical assisted detox treatments. Some people need, 131 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:26,679 like you know, a true rock bottom moment, so I definitely acknowledge that. 132 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,799 But for me, you know, I think because I come from the 133 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,120 bar scene, I still just feel comfortable around alcohol. It's just not for 134 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,679 me anymore, if that makes sense. Yeah, I do too. My 135 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:41,519 husband drinks, he just doesn't drink a lot. I always thought he drink 136 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,039 a lot, and then when I quit drinking, I realized, oh no, 137 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,440 I was leading the party like it was always me going like, let's 138 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,720 open another bottle wine, like he's never one time. Well, he never 139 00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,399 over drank even when we were together, except for a couple of times with 140 00:10:58,519 --> 00:11:03,600 me on vacation, and that was with me going like, let's do shots, 141 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:05,679 you know, and then it was then that was the only time he 142 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:09,799 was ever, like felt sick the next day, whereas I was regularly hungover, 143 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:13,759 and I just assumed that I was with a guy who drank the way 144 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:18,399 I did. No, he doesn't. He He's one of those people, 145 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:22,080 which is which gives like, oh, I forgot to eat vibes where he'll 146 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,720 just be like, I haven't had a drink in like two weeks, and 147 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,600 I'll go why not He's like, yeah, I just forgot, I haven't 148 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,679 bought any and then I'm like, fuck off. Yeah, I think about 149 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,000 food all the time, like, well, I'm eating lunch, I'm thinking 150 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,519 about dinner. I love food. And like when people are like, oh 151 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,360 yeah, I just it's two o'clock, I forgot to eat today, I 152 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:48,919 cannot relate. And in the same way, if I see someone sitting at 153 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:54,600 a bar and they leave a pint glass half full and they just leave, 154 00:11:54,679 --> 00:12:01,000 I'm just like, you're not going to finish that. Alcohol abuse? Alcohol 155 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:07,039 abuse, Yeah it is, that's aphol Okay, So what happened? So 156 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,639 the first take us through like your first time, because obviously you had to 157 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,639 have had some uncomfortable experiences to want to write. We all know, I 158 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:22,200 know, and you know that writing a book is freaking hard. So to 159 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,919 to you know, you have to feel really inspired. And how long, 160 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,639 well did you write the book? Well, this is why this book is 161 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,399 not a memoir, Stephanie. But there's a reason that I did not write 162 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:41,840 the Tawny Laura story. Uh huh. But it took me. You know, 163 00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:46,559 it's such a weird answer, but like, you know, I got 164 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:54,559 the book deal in twenty end of twenty twenty twenty one, and then you 165 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,080 know, I then you have to you find an agent. It's just it's 166 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,240 such a mess. It's so hard to really answer that question because I'd had 167 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:05,879 been writing. I've been writing this book for years. I spent years writing 168 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:07,759 it as a memoir, and then I realized I don't want to write a 169 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:13,799 memoir. And then to personal I yeah, you know, I was. 170 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:18,559 I workshopped it. You know, if if you've never if listeners have never 171 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,639 been in a writing workshop, it's you know, people sitting in a circle 172 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:28,720 reading their work, giving each other feedback, asking questions. Uh, you 173 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:33,960 know, it's it's very beneficial to the writing process. And people asked wonderful 174 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:37,120 questions, and then it made me realize that I don't want to answer them. 175 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:41,200 There's a lot that I want to keep to myself. So I look 176 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:48,159 at memoirrists with the utmost respect, because like, y'all go there, Yeah, 177 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,279 really, really go there. I teach memoir writing actually, and uh, 178 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,080 exactly what you're saying, I do it over zoom. But we take 179 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,399 turns reading and people ask questions, and yeah, like you got to you 180 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,840 gotta get comfortable sharing pretty fast. So I can understand if that that would 181 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,679 be a deterrent to writing a moment very much. And you know, a 182 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:15,200 lot of those pieces, a lot of those chapters that I didn't turn into 183 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,600 the book, they became, you know, other essays that I published, 184 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,440 or they became topics that I researched from a more journalistic perspective. You know, 185 00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:28,519 the book has my story like as a little thread going through, like 186 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:31,399 you do hear, you hear a little bit about my story, but it's 187 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:37,720 more. I interviewed dozens of people and doctors, therapists, mental health professionals, 188 00:14:39,399 --> 00:14:43,559 neurologists to learn about like the brain chemistry. And I also interview people 189 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:48,519 who still drink, I interview people who are sober. I really wanted it 190 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:54,519 to be just a comprehensive, like I said, investigation. But you know, 191 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,759 I had been writing as a freelancer. I had been writing about sober 192 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:03,360 sex and dating for years is before I got the book deal. So that's 193 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,919 also why it's difficult to say how long did it take you to write the 194 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,559 book because I'd been writing and researching about it for pretty much since I got 195 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,799 sober. It really helped me learn how to date, you know, like 196 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:20,600 being being an annoying journalist helped me learn how to date. If that makes 197 00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:24,799 sense. Yeah, but tell us about some of that early uncomfortable yeah dating. 198 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:30,320 Yeah, so you know, I this is where the pleasure advocating for 199 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:35,759 your own pleasure part comes in. When I quit drinking, I also stopped 200 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:41,080 faking orgasms. And that was, Yeah, that was not planned at all, 201 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:46,080 my very first sober sex experience. It was, you know, I 202 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:48,320 was hooking up with someone. We'd been on, you know, a few 203 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,720 dates, and I told him. I was just like, I'm new to 204 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:58,200 this. I've never I've never hooked up without alcohol before, so I really 205 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,440 need to take my time. And he was very patient, very kind. 206 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,000 He was just like, yeah, do whatever you feel comfortable, will go 207 00:16:07,039 --> 00:16:12,279 as slow as you need to something. Advocating for myself like that, I 208 00:16:12,279 --> 00:16:15,559 would have never. I never did that when I drank ever. Ever, 209 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:22,440 Ever, I was usually in the bedroom. It was more performative. I 210 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,320 was usually there for the other person, trying to perform for them, which 211 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,240 is where that yeah, I mean most women do, sadly, which is 212 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,840 where the faking orgasms comes in. You know, Like what, I didn't 213 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,919 spend enough time thinking about my own pleasure, about my own body, So 214 00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:45,639 getting sober really gave me a chance to as corny as it sounds like stuff 215 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:48,200 and you could probably relate. It's like you meet yourself for the first time, 216 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:53,480 and so there's a lot to say there. But you know, sexually, 217 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,840 dealing with body image issues, dealing with some of my sexual hang ups, 218 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,440 like with some PTSD, it was it was tough, you know, 219 00:17:03,559 --> 00:17:07,240 which is why I say I advocated for myself for the first time, because 220 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,279 I you know, when you get sober, you learn these tools, you 221 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:17,240 learn how to set boundaries, you learn how to communicate. So I'm hooking 222 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:19,720 up with this guy and we're going through you know, like we're having a 223 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,799 good time, We're going slow, and I get to this point where I'm 224 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,519 like, this is usually the point where I want to fake an orgasm, 225 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:30,119 but I don't want to do that anymore. And he was like, great, 226 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,880 great, you said that, you said this is the point where I 227 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:40,319 would fake it. Yes, yes, God, I love this conversation so 228 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,640 real. Yeah, and he was like, great, don't do it. 229 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,359 Yeah, he was like, please don't do that, Like this is I 230 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,680 want. I want you to feel good, I want you to enjoy yourself. 231 00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:56,160 So I am so lucky that my first sober sexual experience was incredibly positive, 232 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:04,359 incredibly patient and kind. Did you come no? No? Oh no, 233 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:10,119 I was so in my head. I mean, of course, that's 234 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,039 another that's another thing, like a lot of you know, I'm glad you 235 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,920 just vacant in the conversation. Could you imagine if I talked about faking orgasms 236 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:25,240 but I lied about no no, no no. Like a lot of sex 237 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,279 educators and sex writers right now, the conversation is really about more about pleasure 238 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,279 as opposed to being laser focused on climaxing, because, especially for women, 239 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,160 climaxing can be incredibly difficult, especially when there's a whole bunch of other stuff 240 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:47,200 going on, like like in your head and yeah, grocery store and you 241 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,720 have you have anxiety, and there's there's so there's so much going on. 242 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,160 So there's a lot of conversation about just like really reeling it in, going 243 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,119 back to the basics, rediscovering your body, yourself. What do I even 244 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,559 want out of a sexual experience? What does pleasure mean to me? What 245 00:19:06,599 --> 00:19:11,000 does pleasure mean to my partner? You know, really having these conversations with 246 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,839 yourself and with your partner. That's more of the that's that's where the sex 247 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,720 positive community is, right now it's way less orgasm focused because it puts it 248 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,799 puts pressure on us to fake you know. Yeah, Also when you're dating, 249 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:33,240 I feel like you there's a thing where you feel the performative thing comes 250 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:37,640 in where you're like, but I I have to seem like just laying there 251 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:40,839 and going like yeah, I don't know if it's going to happen is not 252 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,680 sexy, like you know, And we're so trained to want the guy to 253 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,359 feel good like he's pleasing us, that we're trying to please him to feel 254 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,559 like he's pleasing us, so they'll want to see us again and think that 255 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:56,920 we're sexy. And you know, it's and I think I think it's just 256 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:02,480 way more common than people think. Oh yeah, very much so. And 257 00:20:02,599 --> 00:20:07,119 every time I talk about this, every time I talk about faking orgasms and 258 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,799 being performative in the bedroom, when whether it's you know, at a live 259 00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:14,319 event or on a podcast like this, like every woman in the audience is 260 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,119 like waiting, like nodding frantically nodding like yes, yes, yes. It 261 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:25,200 takes a lot of confidence not to fake it, or a lot of vulnerability 262 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:30,160 or bravery to just be like yeah, but I love that you did that. 263 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:33,680 Okay, so that's amazing. So go on, oh, let's take 264 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,359 a quick break first. I'm sorry, Okay, let's take a quick break. 265 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,559 Okay, we're back. So this is so interesting. So then what 266 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,599 happened? So you're with this guy? So the first by the way, 267 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,240 what a great guy. He was great. You know, we dated for 268 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:57,519 a few months and it you know, it we he's not the man that 269 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:00,960 I married. He married like, you know, but I really look on 270 00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:07,920 that that first sober relationship with kindness, and it was just it was a 271 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:14,559 really beautiful relationship and and it didn't end badly. It just you know, 272 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,680 which is another thing. There's actually a chapter in my book about sober breakups. 273 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,759 I learned in sobriety that breakups actually don't have to be this like really 274 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:32,759 big dramatic thing. People can actually just split amicably and be friends. And 275 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,480 it's hard. Not every relationship can do that, of course, but we 276 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:44,359 communicated, you know, and that I think that was really beautiful. But 277 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,160 I kept, you know, I kept dating. And I also when I 278 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,559 got sober, I came out as bisexual, and really, you know, 279 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,519 learned a lot more about what bisexuality means to me, and I met my 280 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:07,240 now husband, I was two years so he and I were each two years 281 00:22:07,279 --> 00:22:11,279 sober. Oh wow, I actually met Yeah, So like we were each 282 00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:15,720 sober for a couple of years and then we found each other. So we 283 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:22,200 have recovery in common, which is so so special to me. But you 284 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,920 know, in between, it was a lot of I didn't date a lot, 285 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,319 you know, I dated like that. I hated the apps. I 286 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:36,359 hated the apps so much people when I was dating, they just wanted to 287 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,359 talk about sobriety, and I was like, God, there's like so much 288 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,079 else I want to talk about, right and so much I'm so much more 289 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,720 than this because it's like, you know, when you're setting up an online 290 00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:52,839 dating profile, like one of that Another chapter in my book is like how 291 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:56,519 to set up your dating profile when you're sober or sober curious? Is like 292 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,640 do I put it on my profile? Do I wait until we meet I 293 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,440 r L? Do I wait until we're DM ing? And there's and I 294 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,079 really break apart all these different the pros and cons of each approach so the 295 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:14,640 reader can figure out what feels best for them. So crazy that, uh, 296 00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:18,559 being sober is such a big deal. It's like it's like seeing that 297 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:22,960 you have kids from a previous relig you know what I mean, that you're 298 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,039 like a single mom or something. It's like, oh yeah, kind of 299 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,920 that. That being sober is some kind of baggage. It's so crazy, 300 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:37,680 it is. And it's what's interesting is that in the dating world especially, 301 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,839 yes, yeah, very much, and it's you know, we all have 302 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:49,880 baggage. And I think when someone is upfront and self aware of their baggage, 303 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,640 it can be intimidating for the person for the person who is not there. 304 00:23:55,759 --> 00:24:00,480 Then they that they feel like they need to explain why they drink to 305 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:03,599 you, They need to explain this. And I dealt with that and it 306 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:11,319 was so freaking annoying. But I was single for a lot of time too, 307 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,680 you know, like I think I called it. You know, the 308 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,960 first chapter of my book is called Dating Yourself. And I spent a lot 309 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,480 of time getting to know me, getting to know my body, getting to 310 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:27,559 know what I want in a relationship, what I bring to the table, 311 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,680 what I want someone else to bring to the table, learning different ways to 312 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,039 explore my own body. So when I do have a partner, sex can 313 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:44,160 be better because I'm not performing anymore so It's like, I think even if 314 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,160 you get sober when you're in a relationship, I think you still need to 315 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,200 do a lot of solo time, you know, be dating yourself, whatever 316 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,920 that means to you. But really figuring out who you are as a sexual 317 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:03,400 being without alcohol is crucial, right. Wow, it's really interesting, you 318 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,359 know. I mean, I mean especially coming from somebody that's been married for 319 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,920 so long and you know it wasn't really didn't really drink that much. I 320 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,960 mean once in a while, but like didn't have to get drunk to get 321 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:19,839 you know, intimate or whatever. But but now like you're single and it's 322 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,799 like going on a date, it's like, of course, everybody's gonna have 323 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:27,440 a glass of something, glass of wine or martini something like it's just normal, 324 00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:33,920 you know what I mean. But what like how what did when you 325 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,000 were like getting to know yourself and doing like self help things. What were 326 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:40,960 some of the things did you you went you had therapy? Did you do 327 00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:45,359 yoga? Did you like so you just or you just went straight to work 328 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:52,920 and just worked and kind of like the above, all of d all of 329 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:59,240 the above I had. I have been a Yoga's been a big part of 330 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,200 my life. For a while. I'll actually and it got my yoga practice 331 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,400 got a lot deeper when I quit drinking. Yoga and meditation. Meditation, 332 00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:15,519 Yeah, that's like once you've really transcended, it's just a yeah. I 333 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:22,400 actually did yoga teacher training. What Yeah, I went to Bali for a 334 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,440 month and I did yoga teacher training. I took a lot of writing classes, 335 00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:32,880 I studied improv, I studied Spanish. Like I, you know, 336 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,000 when you quit drinking, you a have a lot more money than b have 337 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,440 a lot more time. So I filled my time. You know, I 338 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:47,079 was a new, brand new New Yorker who was just like it was like 339 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,440 a playground for me. I was like I So I just explored and I 340 00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:56,920 played and I met really interesting people. And as you know, and I 341 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,440 was writing throughout it, So I was living my normal life. Some of 342 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,000 it I wrote about. And you know, while you're living your life, 343 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:07,720 you meet people. Sometimes they become dates, sometimes they become friends. Sometimes 344 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,119 they're just someone you take a class with. But I was really worried about, 345 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:18,440 like how am I even gonna make friends without alcohol? And you meet 346 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,880 friends in yoga, you meet friends in Spanish, you know, like you 347 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,200 meet friends when you're doing, when you're engaging in a hobby or some sort 348 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:33,359 of creative activity. Right, how did you meet your podcast partner Instagram? 349 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:40,759 Really? Yeah? Did her? Was her book out before yours? Yeah? 350 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,279 Her book came out in sixteen, so and I got sober in twenty 351 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:52,799 fifteen, so sober Instagram. During that time, there was only like a 352 00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,039 handful of us. You know, it is nothing like it is now. 353 00:27:56,759 --> 00:28:00,680 And so she and I followed each other and then I saw that she was 354 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,920 doing uh she had a reading, you know, reading in a book signing 355 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,640 and it was coming up. It was on my first I say, so 356 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:14,440 birthday, my sober birthday. Uh huh. She she was doing a reading 357 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,559 and book signing on my first so birthday. And I commented on her post 358 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,240 and I was like, I'm going to come to your event. This is 359 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,480 how I'm going to celebrate. And so we I came, and then she 360 00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:30,960 gave me the biggest hug and she gave me her one year chip from AA 361 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,519 which yeah, like again, we had never met before, we were just 362 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:41,720 Instagram friends and I still have it. She's you know, Lisa Is. 363 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,200 I just cry what I think about her. She's just such a fabulous person. 364 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:52,920 She's a she's you know her for her book is about getting sober as 365 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,279 a New York City high powered lawyer, you know, living that alcoholic cocaine, 366 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,759 working twenty four to seven life. Right. Her story and it's different 367 00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:07,759 than yours. Her story and she had to go to medical assistant. D 368 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,759 talks like it was a very different story, which is I think why our 369 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:18,000 friendship and our podcast works so well because we're coming to the recovery conversation from 370 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:23,960 two very different perspectives, but it shows that there's no one way to get 371 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:30,240 sober or sober curious, you know. So she's just been a true mentor 372 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:34,359 to me. She was there every step of the way helping me, you 373 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:40,759 know, reading early chapters of the book. Oh wow, just yeah. 374 00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:45,880 So she's she's incredible. I truly don't know where I would be without her. 375 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,079 And by the way, for our listeners, she was going to do 376 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,400 the podcast as well. She was going to be on with Tani, but 377 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,519 I neglected to send any sort of confirmation email. You know me, you 378 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:03,440 guys have met me like yesterday and I was like, hey, you guys 379 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:04,759 still come in. I'm going to send you over the link and she was 380 00:30:04,799 --> 00:30:07,720 like, Oh, I'm giving us a talk at a like a law school 381 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:12,519 or something. I was like, yeah, you're You're way more important than 382 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:17,880 me. But this is what she does now. She speaks at law schools 383 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,920 and law firms. She speaks about addiction and mental health in the legal profession. 384 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,119 Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. That's probably very needed. I bet 385 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,759 you a lot of lawyers are alcoholics, just in the same way that people 386 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,960 in the medical field, right, A lot of doctors, a lot of 387 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,960 law enforcement. Oh yeah, there's high pressure, so much pressure and so 388 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:45,599 much work that it's and stressful work, you know, very very stressful work 389 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:53,599 that you people start self medicating in law school. So she's she's literally traveling 390 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,359 the country and doing these talks on zoom, just you know, talking to 391 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:03,559 either law firms or law schools, just sharing her story, holding space for 392 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,960 people to ask questions. And yeah, she's she's really doing great work. 393 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,640 My only issue with that is I feel like you'd have to wear, you 394 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,839 know, like dress up a lot for that. I like doing jobs that 395 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,359 I can do from my couch. Yeah, yoga pants, sweats, Yeah, 396 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:26,559 our yoga pants. Like I feel like we've all achieved that. So 397 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,880 tell us about the podcast. Do you guys do it once a week, 398 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,799 twice a week. Yeah, So our podcast is called Recovery Rocks. We 399 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,880 talk about recovery and rock and roll and I love that. Yeah, thank 400 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,960 you. So like that's what we bonded over, is like we were both 401 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,960 in recovery and we are both obsessed with rock and roll. So we were 402 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,359 trying to come up with names for our podcast and just like, yeah, 403 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,200 Recovery Rocks, that's a perfect name, and so is dry Humping's a great 404 00:31:57,319 --> 00:32:02,640 name. Great name. I am very, very proud of that book title. 405 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,000 It's people are like, how did you come up with that title? 406 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:10,720 I'm like, I don't know. It just it makes I love I love 407 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:15,559 wordplay. I love puns. I mean when I told you when I turned 408 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:19,400 thirty and I started a blog to hold myself accountable, that blog was called 409 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,519 sobrietea Party. I really love that. I just like words so much. 410 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,480 So yeah, we just you know, the podcast is is really fun. 411 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:37,160 It's every Friday, thirty minute episodes where we talk about just regular just life 412 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,519 and recovery. You know, whether it's like setting boundaries or dating or you 413 00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:45,279 know, how to how to avoid alcohol. When you're at a work event 414 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:50,319 or a holiday party, like and we have guests, you know, Stephanie's 415 00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:54,759 been on and and then each episode ends with us talking about music for a 416 00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:58,279 few minutes. Yeah, I love that. You can imagine how that went 417 00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:01,480 with me though, Yeah, I know, Kenny, I was sore embarrassed. 418 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,799 I was like, well, I'm not really a rock and roller. 419 00:33:05,839 --> 00:33:08,640 I think I was wearing a T shirt with somewhere and I was like, 420 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:14,799 this is very misleading. I mean I do like my I think I might 421 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:17,440 have been wearing run DMC or ac DC but or even led Zeppelin. But 422 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,160 I was like, that's not the greatest representation of me. I'm wore Kenny 423 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,440 Loggins title. But they did not shame me. That's good. Never, 424 00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:31,079 Oh my god. No. As someone who is very sex positive, we 425 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:37,720 have we have this saying don't don't yuck someone else's yum, and I apply 426 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,880 that to music as well. I would never judge anyone's music choices. I 427 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,799 want to hear something like you know, and you cannot answer if you don't 428 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:50,599 want to, But like, did you come up against when you were just 429 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,279 getting back to so the dry humping by the way, really quick, did 430 00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:59,599 you get any pushback on the title. I find that the companies they were 431 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,480 they like, no, we're not going to go with that, it's going 432 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:07,039 to be off putting. There was some concern that some people wouldn't get the 433 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:13,440 title, that some people wouldn't get the pun, and my editor, bless 434 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:20,559 her, she really fought to keep it. So that title is why I 435 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:23,960 had agents interested, It's why I had my editor instantly it was like, 436 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,639 we need this book, you know so and also you know, as as 437 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:37,239 you know, titles are always subject to change, always, so I knew 438 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,840 that I couldn't be married to the title because Barnes and Noble could be like, 439 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,760 we're not going to carry a book called dry Humping, and then we'd 440 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,760 have to change it. Right. So but I'm very very grateful that the 441 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:59,719 very few titles actually stay the same from conception to publish, and so I'm 442 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:02,880 so grateful that that one got to stay. Mine was originally called high Bottom 443 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,000 Girls, speaking of like musical. Yeah, yeah, I love that. 444 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:09,719 Oh they hated it. Yeah, well, they all went with it. 445 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,400 That's how I sold the book and they were all like, yeah, great. 446 00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:15,920 And then as I think it was after I turned in the book, 447 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,880 they were like, so we want to change the title, and I was 448 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,519 like, why this is like I was, I was married to this title. 449 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:27,239 I was like, this is the book, and they were like, 450 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,199 we don't think people are going to get it. It's and I said, 451 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,880 well, then it just needs a good subtitle, like you you know, 452 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,840 the subtitle like high Bottom Girls, a journey from functional to like falling down 453 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,239 drunk or something right that was actually could have been a good subtitle. I 454 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,880 just came up with that on the spot, You're welcome, but they were 455 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:51,000 like no, so there was not a lot I could do. And my 456 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,320 editor was was like, I'm sorry, but when the sales team is just 457 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,119 saying no, it's just a no, so you have to come up with 458 00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:02,400 something else. And I was like, and then was coming up with titles 459 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,119 that were not great, like you know, that's what they have to relax 460 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,559 and don't drink or whatever, and I was like, oh, oh, 461 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,800 her. I don't want to bag on my editor because I love, love, 462 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:16,559 love, love love her and she was probably just feeling under the gun. 463 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,119 But one of the chapters was called like do I have to quit or 464 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:22,559 can I just cut down? And she was like that would be a good 465 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:25,639 title for your book. And I was like, no, it wouldn't at 466 00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:29,599 all. That would be a terrible title for the book. But I couldn't 467 00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:31,599 say that. But I was like, I'm kind of thinking something with a 468 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:37,880 little more personality, like that's kind of a play on words or you know, 469 00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:40,760 fun and she was like okay, well, and I started making a 470 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,280 list and then I just threw drunkish out there. I wasn't even at all 471 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,320 thinking it was a great title, and she was like, oh, I 472 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,000 love that. And then she came back and she was like, everybody loves 473 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,000 drunkish. We're going with drunkish. And I was like, are you sure 474 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:55,679 you don't want high bottom girls and she was like, I'm sorry, it's 475 00:36:55,679 --> 00:37:01,800 definitely a no. I was so sad, but now I'm happy it's funny 476 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,840 because there's also I'm sure you know there's a book called Soberish that came out 477 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,880 last year too. I did not even know that. So I feel like, 478 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:16,639 you guys need to do an event together. Oh no, I did 479 00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:21,320 not know that. I literally didn't. I mean I think I looked up 480 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,039 drunkish and neither was have known. Like the well, it doesn't really matter. 481 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,960 It doesn't matter, but I mean it would matter if it was like 482 00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:31,159 I was calling a podcast that and it had the same title. Yeah, 483 00:37:31,639 --> 00:37:36,440 but yeah, that's so that's so funny. Okay, So should we take 484 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:37,920 another quick break, Kaitlin, Yeah, okay, let's take a break. 485 00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:45,079 Okay. So, I want to know, as a sober woman early on 486 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,440 in your back in your dating experience, did you find that like and I 487 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,920 don't know what you were like when you were drinking, but if you were 488 00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,960 hooking up and like party girl and bartender, I mean, I remember, 489 00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,960 I'll speak for myself. I remember when I was drinking a lot early days 490 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,800 working at restaurants, I had sex with my restaurant manager, like on the 491 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,079 floor in the kitchen after closing time. I was doing crazy, fun stuff 492 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,679 that would have been so far out of my comfort zone sober. And I'm 493 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:21,119 wondering if you came upon any like where you were with a guy that wanted 494 00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,519 to like do something more crazy that you came up against your own like, 495 00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:29,880 Oh gosh, that's no, that's that's so uncomfortable. Now. I love 496 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:35,840 this question. And I also slept with managers. I think that's a ride 497 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,000 of passage. Of course, that is a party girl ride of passage. 498 00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:43,519 If you work in restaurants and you drink till you black out, you're gonna 499 00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:49,360 hook up with coworkers and probably a manager. Yeah, so I totally hear 500 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,760 that. I love this question because you know, I did not have any 501 00:38:54,840 --> 00:39:02,199 standards when I was living my drunk life, like sex and dating. Like 502 00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,559 I was like if you had a pulse and you gave me attention and validation, 503 00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:13,360 like it's on, you know, Like I just was so starved for 504 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:21,280 attention and I lived a very, very reckless life back then. And once 505 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:29,440 I got sober, I really became more mindful with people that I brought into 506 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:35,639 my orbit, whether it's friends, hookups, dates, whatever. So I 507 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:42,480 didn't do a lot of I didn't have a lot of like sober hookups, 508 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,920 you know what I mean. Like, I've got a few, but I 509 00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:52,960 was only I've since I've been sober, I've only slept with people that you 510 00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:59,800 like that I wanted to, that I that respected me. You. I 511 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,920 know that's kind of a boring answer, But how did you meet your husband? 512 00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:09,360 We met in an AA meeting. Oh wow, that's nice. Yeah, 513 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,360 And it's it's funny because AA is not part of my story at all. 514 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:19,599 Like I've been to a handful of meetings, but I went to the 515 00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,760 one I needed to go to and I we met, and we knew very 516 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:30,440 early on that we were I don't know if we knew we were the one 517 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,360 for each other, but I was like, this is about to be real. 518 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:37,280 This is about to be a really big relationship in my life, you 519 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:44,320 know. Yeah, and uh, and we got married last year and congratulations, 520 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,960 thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm obsessed with him. He's amazing. 521 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:57,679 That's great, that's nice. I just know that. That's nice. I 522 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,920 just know that when when I got over, there were certain things even within 523 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,679 my marriage that I was like, Okay, we can do that, but 524 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,440 I need to be drunk, you know that. Then it was like, 525 00:41:07,559 --> 00:41:14,480 oh shit, now I'm sober, like I'm different, like not that necessarily 526 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:16,519 I enjoyed some of those things, but it was just like, Okay, 527 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:22,119 I don't mind getting a little crazy, like if I'm drunk, and I 528 00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:24,039 would would tell him, but I need to be kind of drunk for that, 529 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,000 you know. And then I was sober and it was like, now 530 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:31,320 I have to really I don't know if it's fear or just like I have 531 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:37,880 to respect, like what my actual boundaries. I'm not talking anything really crazy, 532 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,920 but you know that I am a little more printed. I'm definitely more 533 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,880 prude. And you know, luckily my husband is like very sweet and like 534 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,800 cool, and we still obviously enjoy each other. But I'm just saying that 535 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,840 was I feel I have to be a readjustment for things. I think. 536 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,800 So I think so it was it used to being or drunk for certain things 537 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,679 and then all of a sudden you're like, oh shit, now what now? 538 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,559 What exactly? Now what? And I think that women who are already 539 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:13,639 in relationships, because I wrote about this a little bit in my book, 540 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,559 just about how at least if you're single, you can just go like, 541 00:42:16,639 --> 00:42:20,519 well, I'm not gonna do that right now, Like I don't feel comfortable, 542 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,679 I don't want to have sex now that I'm sober. I need to 543 00:42:23,119 --> 00:42:27,039 take some time and figure out what I want. But if you're married, 544 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:31,039 it's like a little bit tough for your significant other, your spouse to be 545 00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:35,440 like, oh, we're just not having sex now because you've decided that, 546 00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:37,400 like you're not comfortable, you know what I mean, Like you sort of 547 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,800 have to figure it out a little quicker, I think, and I think 548 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,280 that a book. I think it's really important for people, whether they're in 549 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,840 a relationship or freshly out of a relationship or dates already we're single, to 550 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:59,119 have this book, Like, I think it probably appeals to people in relationships 551 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:04,000 as well, very much. So it's you know, it's the the last 552 00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:07,119 third of the book is all about like there's a chapter about how to fight 553 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:14,280 correctly, you know, Like there's there's a you know, chapter about breakups. 554 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:21,199 There's a chapter about like communicy, just communication and setting boundaries and advocating 555 00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:23,679 for yourself because a lot of people think, well, like, Okay, 556 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:29,119 I found I found my my person, like the work is done, and 557 00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:32,960 that is not the case. It's that's actually where a lot of the work 558 00:43:34,039 --> 00:43:39,239 begins. So and especially you know, if you were already in a relationship 559 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,199 and then you get sober, like you did Stephanie, that's that's a whole 560 00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:49,280 other thing. You know. It really is a lot of relationships don't survive 561 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:54,079 after one person gets sober, I know, because it's and it's quite devastating 562 00:43:54,159 --> 00:44:00,440 to realize that that that the alcohol was the glue that held you guys together. 563 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:06,159 And it's I've seen it a lot in my line of work, and 564 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:14,360 it's especially if the the person who's not sober feels it's usually because the person 565 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,599 who's not sober feels threatened exactly. They know they know that they should probably 566 00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:23,679 cut back a little bit or stop drinking altogether. So seeing you living your 567 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,920 best life as a sober, sober, curious person, it's going to cause 568 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,199 some some some fights. The other thing I've seen is the flip side of 569 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:39,039 that is, let's say you have a pretty serious issue and your spouse is 570 00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:44,199 always on you like you're you're do you drink like an alcoholic and then you 571 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,519 quit and then you realize, oh shit, my spouse actually is has also 572 00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:52,400 has an issue. I've seen that where the person quits and now that they're 573 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,360 sober, they see their partner in a different light. It's like, oh, 574 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,000 you know what, it wasn't just me. I was like the idea 575 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,960 find patient in this relationship and you got to complain about But now that I'm 576 00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:07,320 sober, you seem to drink an awful lot and check out and now I'm 577 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:14,480 having to do everything and always be the designated driver and like right, yeah, 578 00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:19,239 I mean this is also where a lot of codependency starts to pop up 579 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,079 because someone will get sober and then they'll think it's their their responsibility to save 580 00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:30,199 their partner and like rescue them from their alcohol use, and we can't. 581 00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:34,679 You know, nobody could have saved me. I had to save myself. 582 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,159 And there's I talk about this in the book where I actually give some conversation 583 00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:45,360 starters for how to have those really uncomfortable conversations with like your drinking makes me 584 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:52,400 feel uncomfortable. You know you can't. You cannot diagnose someone as an alcoholic 585 00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:55,960 or a problem drinker, like they have to come to that on their own. 586 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,559 But what you can do is set a bound and advocate for yourself, 587 00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:07,199 saying like I don't feel safe around you when blank or when you blank, 588 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:13,639 it makes me feel this way. And if they continue to ignore your feelings, 589 00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:19,280 then it's that's when some really uncomfortable conversations start to arise. Unfortunately, 590 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:23,119 if you were having an issue with alcohol and then you quit, sometimes people 591 00:46:23,159 --> 00:46:29,039 feel really hypocritical then turning around and going like, I think you're drinking makes 592 00:46:29,039 --> 00:46:31,039 me uncomfortable, And then they're like, really, bitch, because you're drinking 593 00:46:31,039 --> 00:46:36,719 made me uncomfortable. For a long time and now suddenly you're sober and you're 594 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,400 the alcohol police. Like I think that happens to people. So I think 595 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,119 it's about like, listen, you know, you have to forgive yourself for 596 00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:47,920 the way that you were before, and you've taken a positive step in cleaning 597 00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:52,280 up, and you still, even if you created a lot of damage, 598 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,239 you still have a right to want to be with a sober partner or somebody 599 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,440 who's not getting hammered and putting you in danger. You know, it's hard 600 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,519 to you have to get past the idea that like, well now I have 601 00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:08,079 to just put up with whatever because I was drinking for so long. I 602 00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:13,159 think that's hard for people. It's really hard for people. And I think 603 00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:16,599 it's the communication part that's that's really difficult. Is you know, we were 604 00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:21,639 not taught how to communicate or advocate for ourselves. We had to learn those 605 00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:25,119 things on our own. So if you're in recovery and you're working some sort 606 00:47:25,159 --> 00:47:30,320 of program and then you come home from a meeting and your spouse, you 607 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,559 know, just is on their third beer and they're not doing you know, 608 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,320 that can really that can really create a lot of tension, and there's not 609 00:47:38,519 --> 00:47:44,159 again there's I am not anti alcohol. You know a lot of people like 610 00:47:44,159 --> 00:47:47,159 like yourself. You can you can be with someone who drinks because he respects 611 00:47:47,199 --> 00:47:53,880 you. You know that. And you guys talk. You guys have conversations 612 00:47:53,960 --> 00:48:00,000 like it's it's not easy, you know. And but and we're just talking 613 00:48:00,039 --> 00:48:04,880 about romantic relationships here. But like the friend element, the family element is 614 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,280 also a big part of it. It's like I figured out who my real 615 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:12,360 friends are versus my drinking buddies, and that was really painful to go through. 616 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,400 Yeah. Interesting, Okay, Well let in in summary, tell us 617 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:22,519 all your stuff, like where are your what are your socials? Where do 618 00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:23,800 we get this? I mean I already know this stuff, but you know 619 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,199 what I mean? Where do we get the book? Anywhere books are sold. 620 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,000 Go on Amazon, go on Burns and Nobles. But go ahead. 621 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:35,320 There's also an audio book if if you would want me to read the book 622 00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,920 to you, you can get the audiobook. And I have a newsletter called 623 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,880 Beyond Liquid Courage where I write about just like life beyond sobriety, you know, 624 00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:51,039 like what life is like now that I now that I'm just like a 625 00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:58,039 person who doesn't drink anymore, And my husband and I actually just launched a 626 00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:05,119 vinegar based non alcoholic bes fridge. So that's called Yeah, that's called Parentheses. 627 00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:10,119 That came out two months ago. So that's that's like my that's my 628 00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:16,360 full time job now. Oh yeah, I'm I'm promoting our drink. So 629 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,800 oh that's exciting. So where do we find that? Is it? Does 630 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,159 that have an Instagram? Yeah? It does. You can just go to 631 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:30,559 drink parentheses dot com or drink Parentheses on Instagram. And it's my husband is 632 00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:37,880 He was a somalier, so he he crafted this gorgeous vinegar based botanical drink 633 00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:45,239 and it is I obviously think it's delicious, but it's a it's a technically 634 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,880 two drinks. It's a before and an after, so it's like a NA 635 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:55,519 a pair of teef DJs vibes. Oh yeah, so that's that's uh, 636 00:49:55,639 --> 00:50:00,440 you know, available online in a couple NA bottle shops and uh and stuff 637 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:07,159 like that. So by bry Humping and get a couple bottles of Parentheses and 638 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:14,960 follow Tawny Laura on Instagram and they can follow the podcast Recovery Rocks And thank 639 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:19,800 you so much for being so open and sharing with us today it's been really 640 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,840 great. Thank you, Tani, really fun. Thank you for having me. 641 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,480 You guys are so fun. Oh good, you were great. Come 642 00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:32,000 back again please definitely okay, thank you, Oh bye, Thank you everybody 643 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,960 for listening. You're a parent, now, don't f it up. It's 644 00:50:37,199 --> 00:50:39,920 good man,