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What what? What? Everybody?
Welcome to another episode Let's Ask Paul,

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the podcast where you get to ask
me Paul Abernatin anything you want about the

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National Electrical Code in UH, you
know, all things code related. Hey,

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today's episode is sponsored by Fasttracksystem dot
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the best deals we can. All
right, Shifting Gears. Let's get into

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today's question that was submitted to me
over on Paul Abernathy dot com. Remember

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you can submit stuff too, So
this question is a bit lengthy, So

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let me kind of get geared up
here to do this and get my eyeballs

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on here. All right. So
it says, good morning, Paul,

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have a situation on a multifamily dwelling. Electrician installed a four hundred A main

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disconnect to feed four separate meters slash
disconnects for each panel for the departments.

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Okay, it says the utility companies
stated they did not want fuses installed in

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the disconnect since since was feeding their
meters, they just want the metal bar

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installed, So just a knife switch
style metal bar installed, basically just making

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it an emergency disconnect at this point. Okay, I'm gonna have to clear

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up a couple of things with that
in a second. But okay, So,

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but there is se cable going through
the attic serving the two other meter

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slash diston next parentheses where weren't able
to group all together due to window placement

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on the exterior. That's a that's
a problem. That's a problem. So

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we're going to try to look at
that a little bit here anyway. Okay,

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now it says with that all said, is it legal now that the

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disconnect is not going to be fused
and essentially the se cable is unprotected going

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into the building and attic area to
other locations. Okay, a couple things

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that we're gonna have to talk about
this one here, folks. So we're

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gonna have to We're gonna have to
dig into this a little bit now.

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First of all, there was a
mention made about that meter or that disconnect

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ahead of the meters, and this
is it looks like a four gang meter

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stack here or what's going to be
four gang meters because of a window,

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it's now two and two. So
that meet, that disconnect is on the

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supply side of the the meter stack
or the meters itself. Okay, okay,

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So the utility is saying, look, I don't want to fuse there,

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I want just a disconnect. That's
it. Now you're calling an emergency

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disconnect, right, So the first
thing that I would I would say,

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let's go look real quick at emergency
disconnect and two thirty nine eighty five.

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Okay, so you should all be
if you're listening, if you're riding down

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the road. Don't do this,
folks, Okay, don't do this.

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You should be in two thirty nine
eighty five. Just of touching on the

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statement about emergency disconnect. So this
seems like this is a multi family building.

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There's four different apartments in it,
so two thirty eighty five is specific

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to one in two family dwellings.
Okay, so not what we've not what

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we've got here, This is a
multi family So two thirty dot eighty five

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is really not in play here.
So it's still a disconnect, but it's

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not necessarily going to be meeting two
thirty dont eighty five for emergency disconnect.

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Okay. So I just wanted to
kind of get that out of the way,

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all right. Okay, So now
the utility wants the disconnect that's ahead

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of the meters to be knife rate, knife only, Okay. They don't

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want it to be have any fuses
or anything in it. Okay, So

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it is purely just a disconnect,
right, and so in that scenario,

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that is perfectly fine for you to
have that to not have any pre because

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that's not the service protection, that's
not the service equipment. That's just a

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meter disconnect, okay. Allows them
to be able to cut the power off

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and effectively separate the building from the
service conductors that are coming to the building.

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Okay. That's all that's there for. It's just cut it off.

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You have to remember, now,
the manufacturer, I shouldn't say manufacturer,

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let's back up. The utility holds
all the cards here. They're telling you

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what they want, and so you've
got to pretty much do what they want,

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and they don't want fuses in there. Okay, fair enough. Now

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let's talk a little bit though about
some of the other parts in here.

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Now, first thing that we have
to look at is that you made a

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statement about where they're not grouped together. Okay, So two thirty seventy two

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states that you have to group okay. So it says we're two to six

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disconnects if permit by two thirty dot
seventy one. Now, in this case,

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two thirty dot seventy one is the
maximum number of disconnects. Seems to

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me here you've got four all right, So you're looking at two thirty dot

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seventy one. B it says the
two to six service disconnects shall be permitted,

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UH for each service permitted by two
thirty dot two. Sounds like there's

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only one service coming to this building. It's coming in, they want a

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disconnect, and it's going to hit
US area where it branches out to the

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UH individual units service disconnecting means I
get you okay, So again, or

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for each set of service interconductors permitted
into thirty dot forty exception one, three,

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four, or five. Okay.
So what you've got here is you're

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going to have up to six disconnects
and they're going to be need to be

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grouped together. That's in two thirty
dot seventy two right now. There is

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exceptions to this rule for other things, but generally, just speaking normally,

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that's not going to apply. So
they It says that the two to six

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disconnects as permitted in two thirty dot
seventy one, which we just looked at,

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these these four service disconnects to these
individual apartments shall be grouped. Each

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disconnect shall be marked to indicate the
loads served. Okay, so at this

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point they're not grouped because you had
no space at the window. Sadly,

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that's not a reason to forego this, and the inspectors should have called this

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out. The grouping is required.
However, however, do you remember what

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it said about the maximum number,
right, well, the maximum number it

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allowed me to also take into consideration
two thirty dot forty exception number one,

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number three, number four, number
five. So real quickly, we're gonna

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go look into and probably not your
situation because you're concerned about those se cables.

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If you go look at two thirty
dot forty, we're talking about the

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service entrance conductors themselves. It says
each service drop, set of overhead service

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doctors, or set of underground service
conductors or service laterals shall supply only one

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set of service entrance conductors Okay.
However, you're looking at exception number one,

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and it says if a building with
more than one occupancy shall be permitted

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to have one set of service entrance
conductors for each service as permitted to thirty

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pint to two run to each occupancy
or group of occupancies, if the number

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of service disconnect locations for any given
classification of service does not exceed six.

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Okay, Now what that means is
as long as you had from the meter,

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I mean from the disconnect that they
want you to install ahead of the

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meters, you come through the meters, and as long as those se cables

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run on the outside of the building, as long as they run around the

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outside of the building and then terminate
into service disconnects. If that se cable

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stays on the outside of the building, then you're able to have up to

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six at each one of those locations
and you wouldn't have to group them back.

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Where's that meter disconnect is? And
the meters are okay, but they

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all have to be that way,
okay, So if you're using that,

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and then the service entrance cables can
run around the outside of the building.

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So here's where we have a problem. Yours didn't do that, Okay,

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yours are stating that there obviously are
coming from the actual disconnect four hundred and

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alp ahead of the meters, and
then the service entrance cables are running to

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their locations, but they're going into
the building. Okay. Now, that

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indeed would be a problem. One
is because you're absolutely right, those conductors

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do not have any protection. And
I'm going to tell you, even if

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you had fuses out there in that
four hundred and AM, it's probably not

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going to protect those se cables because
those se cables are going to be much

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smaller based on the size of whatever
the panel is in each one of those

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units. So it's you know,
if you refusing it at four hundred,

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yet you have a conductor that only
has a rating of two hundred, then

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you're not really protecting it, are
you. You're not, okay, So

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that would be a problem. So
when we look at that, then that's

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when we have to look at the
scenario, and we have to look at

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two thirty dot seventy a one and
it says the service discignatector means shall be

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installed at a readily accessible location,
either outside of the building or structure,

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or the nearest the nearest the point
of entry of the service conductors, right.

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So the problem is it doesn't sound
like there is any service disconnecting means

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on the supply side of those se
cables as they enter into what you say

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is the attic, so there is
no protection and those conductors are for all

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intensive purposes unprotected as they run through
the attic. So that would be a

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violation of two thirty dot seventy A
one of course. So there's a bunch

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of pieces in here. I believe
that if you did not group them all

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together, that if you're using with
se cables and everything's outside, if you

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are se cable is going around the
building before they pop into the units,

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then I think you're going to be
using two thirty forty exception number one.

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And then once you hit that unit, you have up to six at that

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each one. But those service conductors
are outside of the building until they penetrate.

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The moment that you put disconnects two
of them at one location, and

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then you run the other two around
in service entrance conductors and you put them

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and then it immediately goes into those
units. Then you're okay there as well.

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The problem that you're gonna have with
grouping is if you happen to put

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two service disconnects outside next to the
two that you did install where the window

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was right, and now there's feed
going into the building, but then you

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have service conductors running around and going
around the building into it. Then that

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that point you have problems because now
you have feeders coming in. Uh,

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and so then you have an issue
where you're you're not able to use the

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two thirty forty exception number one in
my opinion, and then you would have

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to group all of your service disconnects
at the same location. So this can

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create create problems. For example,
if I'm feeding one unit with service conductors,

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but I'm feeding another unit with a
feeder, then that is a problem

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because now the service conductors are not
grouped. Okay, I mean the service

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equipment is not grouped. So the
only way that I can see around this

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is if you came to a building, you put a meter stack outside,

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and you came out of the meter
and your service entrance cables went around the

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outside of the building and then immediately
popped into the building and hit the panels

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in each apartment. Then you'd only
have to have up to six at that

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location where they penetrate and they are
grouped for that separate se cable. That's

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the allowance for you to use the
service entrance cables outside and use the two

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thirty forty exception number one, right, So, and that's the only way

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I can see around this, Okay, So, and I can't. There's

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not enough detail here except for what
it looks like you did run. They

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did run se cables through an attic
that had no service disconnect on the supply

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side of it. So to me, that's a violation of seventy A one

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creating an unsafe condition, the grouping
aspect of it. At this point,

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Yeah, there's no grouping involved those
service conductors and somewhere inside and some are

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outside. You didn't use the allowance
for sc cables and two thirty forty exception

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number one, So you do have
this this grouping issue that you've got to

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deal with. Now, maybe your
jurisdiction allowed that separation. I don't know,

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But based on the way you say
it, you've got some conductors that

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do have no protection on them running
through the building. So that's the bigger

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issue that I see. They're unprotected. Just don't think that that four hundred

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and amp fused disconnect ahead of the
meters would have protected those individual conductors,

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Okay. I don't believe that they
would have protected them in that case now

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now barring some allowances in two thirty
ninety when it comes to the overcurrent protection,

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and there's some options there which we
won't get into because it's a little

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more detail. In this case,
your biggest issue is these unprotected conductors.

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Now as far as putting that disconnect
on the supply side of these individual service

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disconnects, because that's not what that
disc that four hundred amp is, okay,

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So because obviously it's not going to
have any overload protection in it,

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Okay, they just want it to
be a knife. It's just a disconnect,

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Okay. Well, you're allowed to
have that in two thirty eight two

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item three, and that is basically
a meter disconnect switch. That's what they

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want. It's got to be rated
to be able to handle the short circuit

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current rating SECR. It's got to
be equal to a greater than available fault

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current which they can provide you.
And obviously the disconnect itself has to be

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capable of interrupting the load that's being
served. So there's obviously some load calculation,

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which we've determined that it obviously is
a four hundred amp set up,

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So obviously somebody submitted a load calculation, and of course that has to be

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labeled as a meter disconnect and it's
not service equipment. So all they want

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is a disconnect, and that's what
they want, So it is what they

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00:16:56,639 --> 00:16:59,200
want, so that's lesser of your
issue. Give them what they want.

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The bigger issue again is the grouping, and the other issue is the unprotected

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se cable running through the attic.
So the best way to do that is

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to get you some service disconnects outside
in these locations. And again, if

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you put service disconnects under two of
them and then you have to put service

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distinect outside under the other two,
now you have a grouping issue that you're

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going to have to talk to your
local age J all right, all right,

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hopefully I answer that question as best
I can based on what was submitted.

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You can always do a follow up, draw me a diagram, give

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me a little bit of better understanding. I'm sure there's people out there or

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disagree with me, but my main
focus for you is to give them the

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knife style disconnect that they want without
uses and now you have service conductors that

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are running through the building that do
not have overcurrent protection at the point where

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they outside or nearest point of entry. I don't believe, based on what

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you've given me, that that four
hundred and amp, even with fuses ahead

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of the meters, would have been
adequate to protect each one of these.

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I don't have enough detail on what
these conductors were, these se cable sizes.

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I don't know what they're feeding,
what panels they're feeding. Maybe they're

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one, twenty fives, I don't
know. I just don't have enough detail.

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But what I can tell you is
that you if you have unprotected conductors

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and you're in violating of two thirty
dot seventy a one, and it sounds

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like you're not, you've admitted that
you're not meeting the grouping rule. Uh.

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And of course that for those that
are following along, that's two thirty

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seventy two uh. And other than
that, that's where I would start.

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Okay, all right, folks,
that's about all I can do for this

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episode. Hopefully you got something out
of it. Remember you can submit your

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questions to me at Paul Abernathy dot
com. I will do my best to

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00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,799
get answers to you as quick as
I can, if not in a podcast,

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in any email. All right,
folks, till next time, stay

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safe, God bless, and remember, if you're looking for the best electrical

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code course out there, which incidentally
would explain this in great detail in our

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00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,559
fast Tracks program, check out our
website fastracksystem dot com. The two new

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00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:17,000
courses, basic and Enhanced are the
the cats MEW If you will, until

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00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:41,359
next time, stay safe, God
bless,