What what? What? Everybody? Welcome to another episode Let's Ask Paul,
the podcast where you get to ask me Paul Abernatin anything you want about the
National Electrical Code in UH, you know, all things code related. Hey,
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today's question that was submitted to me over on Paul Abernathy dot com. Remember
you can submit stuff too, So this question is a bit lengthy, So
let me kind of get geared up here to do this and get my eyeballs
on here. All right. So it says, good morning, Paul,
have a situation on a multifamily dwelling. Electrician installed a four hundred A main
disconnect to feed four separate meters slash disconnects for each panel for the departments.
Okay, it says the utility companies stated they did not want fuses installed in
the disconnect since since was feeding their meters, they just want the metal bar
installed, So just a knife switch style metal bar installed, basically just making
it an emergency disconnect at this point. Okay, I'm gonna have to clear
up a couple of things with that in a second. But okay, So,
but there is se cable going through the attic serving the two other meter
slash diston next parentheses where weren't able to group all together due to window placement
on the exterior. That's a that's a problem. That's a problem. So
we're going to try to look at that a little bit here anyway. Okay,
now it says with that all said, is it legal now that the
disconnect is not going to be fused and essentially the se cable is unprotected going
into the building and attic area to other locations. Okay, a couple things
that we're gonna have to talk about this one here, folks. So we're
gonna have to We're gonna have to dig into this a little bit now.
First of all, there was a mention made about that meter or that disconnect
ahead of the meters, and this is it looks like a four gang meter
stack here or what's going to be four gang meters because of a window,
it's now two and two. So that meet, that disconnect is on the
supply side of the the meter stack or the meters itself. Okay, okay,
So the utility is saying, look, I don't want to fuse there,
I want just a disconnect. That's it. Now you're calling an emergency
disconnect, right, So the first thing that I would I would say,
let's go look real quick at emergency disconnect and two thirty nine eighty five.
Okay, so you should all be if you're listening, if you're riding down
the road. Don't do this, folks, Okay, don't do this.
You should be in two thirty nine eighty five. Just of touching on the
statement about emergency disconnect. So this seems like this is a multi family building.
There's four different apartments in it, so two thirty eighty five is specific
to one in two family dwellings. Okay, so not what we've not what
we've got here, This is a multi family So two thirty dot eighty five
is really not in play here. So it's still a disconnect, but it's
not necessarily going to be meeting two thirty dont eighty five for emergency disconnect.
Okay. So I just wanted to kind of get that out of the way,
all right. Okay, So now the utility wants the disconnect that's ahead
of the meters to be knife rate, knife only, Okay. They don't
want it to be have any fuses or anything in it. Okay, So
it is purely just a disconnect, right, and so in that scenario,
that is perfectly fine for you to have that to not have any pre because
that's not the service protection, that's not the service equipment. That's just a
meter disconnect, okay. Allows them to be able to cut the power off
and effectively separate the building from the service conductors that are coming to the building.
Okay. That's all that's there for. It's just cut it off.
You have to remember, now, the manufacturer, I shouldn't say manufacturer,
let's back up. The utility holds all the cards here. They're telling you
what they want, and so you've got to pretty much do what they want,
and they don't want fuses in there. Okay, fair enough. Now
let's talk a little bit though about some of the other parts in here.
Now, first thing that we have to look at is that you made a
statement about where they're not grouped together. Okay, So two thirty seventy two
states that you have to group okay. So it says we're two to six
disconnects if permit by two thirty dot seventy one. Now, in this case,
two thirty dot seventy one is the maximum number of disconnects. Seems to
me here you've got four all right, So you're looking at two thirty dot
seventy one. B it says the two to six service disconnects shall be permitted,
UH for each service permitted by two thirty dot two. Sounds like there's
only one service coming to this building. It's coming in, they want a
disconnect, and it's going to hit US area where it branches out to the
UH individual units service disconnecting means I get you okay, So again, or
for each set of service interconductors permitted into thirty dot forty exception one, three,
four, or five. Okay. So what you've got here is you're
going to have up to six disconnects and they're going to be need to be
grouped together. That's in two thirty dot seventy two right now. There is
exceptions to this rule for other things, but generally, just speaking normally,
that's not going to apply. So they It says that the two to six
disconnects as permitted in two thirty dot seventy one, which we just looked at,
these these four service disconnects to these individual apartments shall be grouped. Each
disconnect shall be marked to indicate the loads served. Okay, so at this
point they're not grouped because you had no space at the window. Sadly,
that's not a reason to forego this, and the inspectors should have called this
out. The grouping is required. However, however, do you remember what
it said about the maximum number, right, well, the maximum number it
allowed me to also take into consideration two thirty dot forty exception number one,
number three, number four, number five. So real quickly, we're gonna
go look into and probably not your situation because you're concerned about those se cables.
If you go look at two thirty dot forty, we're talking about the
service entrance conductors themselves. It says each service drop, set of overhead service
doctors, or set of underground service conductors or service laterals shall supply only one
set of service entrance conductors Okay. However, you're looking at exception number one,
and it says if a building with more than one occupancy shall be permitted
to have one set of service entrance conductors for each service as permitted to thirty
pint to two run to each occupancy or group of occupancies, if the number
of service disconnect locations for any given classification of service does not exceed six.
Okay, Now what that means is as long as you had from the meter,
I mean from the disconnect that they want you to install ahead of the
meters, you come through the meters, and as long as those se cables
run on the outside of the building, as long as they run around the
outside of the building and then terminate into service disconnects. If that se cable
stays on the outside of the building, then you're able to have up to
six at each one of those locations and you wouldn't have to group them back.
Where's that meter disconnect is? And the meters are okay, but they
all have to be that way, okay, So if you're using that,
and then the service entrance cables can run around the outside of the building.
So here's where we have a problem. Yours didn't do that, Okay,
yours are stating that there obviously are coming from the actual disconnect four hundred and
alp ahead of the meters, and then the service entrance cables are running to
their locations, but they're going into the building. Okay. Now, that
indeed would be a problem. One is because you're absolutely right, those conductors
do not have any protection. And I'm going to tell you, even if
you had fuses out there in that four hundred and AM, it's probably not
going to protect those se cables because those se cables are going to be much
smaller based on the size of whatever the panel is in each one of those
units. So it's you know, if you refusing it at four hundred,
yet you have a conductor that only has a rating of two hundred, then
you're not really protecting it, are you. You're not, okay, So
that would be a problem. So when we look at that, then that's
when we have to look at the scenario, and we have to look at
two thirty dot seventy a one and it says the service discignatector means shall be
installed at a readily accessible location, either outside of the building or structure,
or the nearest the nearest the point of entry of the service conductors, right.
So the problem is it doesn't sound like there is any service disconnecting means
on the supply side of those se cables as they enter into what you say
is the attic, so there is no protection and those conductors are for all
intensive purposes unprotected as they run through the attic. So that would be a
violation of two thirty dot seventy A one of course. So there's a bunch
of pieces in here. I believe that if you did not group them all
together, that if you're using with se cables and everything's outside, if you
are se cable is going around the building before they pop into the units,
then I think you're going to be using two thirty forty exception number one.
And then once you hit that unit, you have up to six at that
each one. But those service conductors are outside of the building until they penetrate.
The moment that you put disconnects two of them at one location, and
then you run the other two around in service entrance conductors and you put them
and then it immediately goes into those units. Then you're okay there as well.
The problem that you're gonna have with grouping is if you happen to put
two service disconnects outside next to the two that you did install where the window
was right, and now there's feed going into the building, but then you
have service conductors running around and going around the building into it. Then that
that point you have problems because now you have feeders coming in. Uh,
and so then you have an issue where you're you're not able to use the
two thirty forty exception number one in my opinion, and then you would have
to group all of your service disconnects at the same location. So this can
create create problems. For example, if I'm feeding one unit with service conductors,
but I'm feeding another unit with a feeder, then that is a problem
because now the service conductors are not grouped. Okay, I mean the service
equipment is not grouped. So the only way that I can see around this
is if you came to a building, you put a meter stack outside,
and you came out of the meter and your service entrance cables went around the
outside of the building and then immediately popped into the building and hit the panels
in each apartment. Then you'd only have to have up to six at that
location where they penetrate and they are grouped for that separate se cable. That's
the allowance for you to use the service entrance cables outside and use the two
thirty forty exception number one, right, So, and that's the only way
I can see around this, Okay, So, and I can't. There's
not enough detail here except for what it looks like you did run. They
did run se cables through an attic that had no service disconnect on the supply
side of it. So to me, that's a violation of seventy A one
creating an unsafe condition, the grouping aspect of it. At this point,
Yeah, there's no grouping involved those service conductors and somewhere inside and some are
outside. You didn't use the allowance for sc cables and two thirty forty exception
number one, So you do have this this grouping issue that you've got to
deal with. Now, maybe your jurisdiction allowed that separation. I don't know,
But based on the way you say it, you've got some conductors that
do have no protection on them running through the building. So that's the bigger
issue that I see. They're unprotected. Just don't think that that four hundred
and amp fused disconnect ahead of the meters would have protected those individual conductors,
Okay. I don't believe that they would have protected them in that case now
now barring some allowances in two thirty ninety when it comes to the overcurrent protection,
and there's some options there which we won't get into because it's a little
more detail. In this case, your biggest issue is these unprotected conductors.
Now as far as putting that disconnect on the supply side of these individual service
disconnects, because that's not what that disc that four hundred amp is, okay,
So because obviously it's not going to have any overload protection in it,
Okay, they just want it to be a knife. It's just a disconnect,
Okay. Well, you're allowed to have that in two thirty eight two
item three, and that is basically a meter disconnect switch. That's what they
want. It's got to be rated to be able to handle the short circuit
current rating SECR. It's got to be equal to a greater than available fault
current which they can provide you. And obviously the disconnect itself has to be
capable of interrupting the load that's being served. So there's obviously some load calculation,
which we've determined that it obviously is a four hundred amp set up,
So obviously somebody submitted a load calculation, and of course that has to be
labeled as a meter disconnect and it's not service equipment. So all they want
is a disconnect, and that's what they want, So it is what they
want, so that's lesser of your issue. Give them what they want.
The bigger issue again is the grouping, and the other issue is the unprotected
se cable running through the attic. So the best way to do that is
to get you some service disconnects outside in these locations. And again, if
you put service disconnects under two of them and then you have to put service
distinect outside under the other two, now you have a grouping issue that you're
going to have to talk to your local age J all right, all right,
hopefully I answer that question as best I can based on what was submitted.
You can always do a follow up, draw me a diagram, give
me a little bit of better understanding. I'm sure there's people out there or
disagree with me, but my main focus for you is to give them the
knife style disconnect that they want without uses and now you have service conductors that
are running through the building that do not have overcurrent protection at the point where
they outside or nearest point of entry. I don't believe, based on what
you've given me, that that four hundred and amp, even with fuses ahead
of the meters, would have been adequate to protect each one of these.
I don't have enough detail on what these conductors were, these se cable sizes.
I don't know what they're feeding, what panels they're feeding. Maybe they're
one, twenty fives, I don't know. I just don't have enough detail.
But what I can tell you is that you if you have unprotected conductors
and you're in violating of two thirty dot seventy a one, and it sounds
like you're not, you've admitted that you're not meeting the grouping rule. Uh.
And of course that for those that are following along, that's two thirty
seventy two uh. And other than that, that's where I would start.
Okay, all right, folks, that's about all I can do for this
episode. Hopefully you got something out of it. Remember you can submit your
questions to me at Paul Abernathy dot com. I will do my best to
get answers to you as quick as I can, if not in a podcast,
in any email. All right, folks, till next time, stay
safe, God bless, and remember, if you're looking for the best electrical
code course out there, which incidentally would explain this in great detail in our
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next time, stay safe, God bless,