What is Cracklac and fellow Thermino bear A efforts. I am granted he's joined
as always by my co host Dampha Valley. And if you've noticed anything strange
states because I'm talking first, and I should have not said joined by my
co host Dampha Valley, so you could think I was doing a solo pod,
which would be even weirder. We're doing weird things today. Were trying
to keep it loose because we have three eliminated teams to discuss, which we
haven't yet. We haven't talked about what order we're gonna do that in.
We have four teams left to discuss. We'll do that briefly. There's a
couple series to go, but I'm gonna get to it quickly because I have
so much respect for him and I want to know and I never get to
ask Dan, how you doing. I am a little bit depressed after how
like the next season ended, but that wasn't expected. A little bit manic
too, because that thunder, the thunder the Timberwolves Nugget series was just ended
up being an acid trip, and that Game seven, specifically just the implications
that it might have on the Nuggets future then also are champion this year just
incredible and then thunder MAVs. I thought some of the talking points after that
were hysterical, but I am is to say on this Monday, I have
energy. I am highly caffeinated. I continue to caffeinate too, So we're
gonna keep this going. And I'm also just like in awe that I got
to see your I think that's the first time you've definitely done the podcast intro
right, oh for sure. And we discussed right beforehand that that's how it
was gonna go, and I did not want to practice or do any extra
reps. We'll let the people decide how it went. I suspect they'll want
the original, the original recipe back at some point. You have a plaint
about my yelling. I've been yelling for I tried to go a loud.
I basically like, did an impression. I feel like, so if we
continue with this, I'll have to kind of find my own voice, you
know, that's important. One thing before we get started, I'm concerned I
don't have enough like Capital T takes on, like any of the series we're
going to discuss, or the eliminated teams we're going to discuss because all these
series were awesome, and like the team that lost had moments that were phenomenal
generally speaking, and like, by some measures, I guess other than Denver
overachieved or at least met the standard of achievement we expected. So it's like
usually you want to go, oh, this is the reason this team lost,
or here's the glaring flaw or whatever, or like here's the transcendent thing
this other team did. It's kind of just like, man, all these
teams were good and like they played really hard, Like I just I want
to just I don't know, I want to avoid or try to today the
trap of saying, like here's what's wrong with the Knicks. Here's what's wrong
with the Nuggets, Like here's what's wrong with the Thunder. No, they
didn't win their series, but and we can start. I'll let you pick
where you want to start with, which team, which series, which post
mortem however we want to do this, but like, do you feel that
way too, where like, man, these were all good, and like
there were moments where obviously the team that lost, we probably thought I was
gonna win it, uh, and I was. I was one in three
over the place. Yeah, one and three I got one of the series
right. It was tough. I mean, they were all close, they
were all awesome. I don't have a question for you other than like,
where would you like to begin? I am with you in a sense that
this isn't There are definitely like things that the teams that lost, which I
find more interesting, mostly because we'll do conference final stuff at the end that's
just going to be dated, and so we'll talk. We'll end up talking
probably more about the Mavericks in the vein of when we're talking about the thunder
Uh. But you're right, those all teams are really good, and I
think we could we should started with the Nuggets because I think what's I didn't
see a lot of this, but I saw and heard some of it in
the aftermat that there are people that were genuinely shocked they didn't win the series.
And yeah, when you juxtapose it against they blew a twenty point lead
in the second half, I get it. But like, minnesot has been
there all year. I was asked on a show I did just before this,
if this like signals a changing of the guard, And it's kind of
like there was a changing of the guard at the top of the West already
and it included the Timberwolves this season, Like the Nuggets were there, but
they kind of rose to because they won the championship. We knew they were
relevant, but they won the title last year, like we moved away from
kind of this Warriors and who does Lebron play for our talk and it's thunder
the Mavericks. We kind of thought were they were like in it and then
fading out, but now they're back in. I mean, who talk about
being wrong about the Mavericks not related to what we're talking about the moment,
but it's not a changing of the guard, Like the Timberwolves were right there,
and I think that Curry's your thoughts on that. But I also just
think the better team won this series. And the team that was built to
be the Denver Nuggets is foil by the guy who also built the Denver Nuggets.
They ended up being the Denver Nuggets his foil And that, to me,
more than anything, is what I take away from this series. Yeah,
I think the changing of the guard idea, I mean in some ways,
yeah, like Anthony Edwards in a Conference finals, Like for everybody that
you know it has been talking about facing the league next Jordan all this other
stuff like yeah, that tracks, I guess, but that presumes that Denver
is not going to be part of that elite you know, class of in
the West or like shortlist title contenders next year, which I don't think is
the case. I think like this ties to Yeah, Minnesota earned it for
sure, but like if this is a fourteen game series, we play seven
more, like this might just be seven to seven, Like I think,
I really like we saw it's it's hard to get past. You know,
Oh, Denver kind of lost it at the end because they did blow the
fifty eight to thirty eight lead and scored thirty two points I think basically in
the second half. So it's easy to fall into the same thinking we did
after games one and two where the Wolves jumped them. But then there were
three three point you know, six games in between that where Denver was the
better team. So like I think, yeah, new teams have risen into
the contender class, Minnesota being one of them, which was there all year.
Same with Okay, see, same with Dallas, I guess now,
but Denver's not going anywhere. We can talk about what may change for the
Nuggets or like just what may get prohibitively expensive, but like, there's no
scenario where Denver is not I don't know, one of the four five you
know best Odds twenty twenty five title winning teams next year when we go into
the season, Like, so it just I just I again, I'll get
back to what I said initially of like I can't kill Denver like they it
did look rough at the end when the Wolves were just on this run that
seemed so improbable, but like, I don't know, for half of that
series, basically Denver was the team that was dominating, and and it just
came out, you know, slightly less than half. I guess we should
say, uh but but yeah, like and I kind of feel that way
for different reasons, like the don't panic for Denver. I have the same
don't panic for New York and the same don't panic for Okace, but for
different reasons. We can get into there specifically, do you like, does
that track for you or is it more like, oh, the Wolves are
now a team that we should just regard as clearly a cut above Denver going
into next year, or it's just like, yeah, they're gonna fight it
out again. I hope we get another series. There's yeah, I hope
they. I think it's more likely that we would get this series in the
conference finals next year than that. This somehow signaled that, Okay, the
West is no longer there's no longer a debate as to who the top of
the West is. And by the way, there could just be other teams
that enter that like them, they still have to We'll still have to go
through the Mavericks. They were built to beat the Nuggets, which is why
it's kind of fascinating to see, well, how do they match up against
the Mavericks like Dallas when we were clearly wrong about them, they might still
have other moves up their sleeve. Uh. And so like you know,
you can kind of say, like Phoenix is done if you think like they
might win a bunch of games, but they're not a real threat. Ditto
for the Warriors, maybe even the Lakers. But like the Kings still have
assets to play. The Pelicans have cars to play. Their thunder just floating
around out here. So I don't it's not time for Denver to panic.
With that being said, like this is a and I don't know how much
of an indictment it is on how they went about their offseason, but they
clearly based on who was playing. By the end, you leaned too far
into the I'm not going to call it the two timeline model, but it's
and I respected what they were trying to do in the sense of, we
want to hit on these guys because we're about to get mega expensive and if
we want to keep this core together, we need to hit on some cost
controlled players. But by the end of that series, it was Christian Brown.
Okay, you hit on him, but we knew that last year.
Peyton Watson not playing this series basically, and you having to hit the Justin
Holliday button who played well for you. It's concerning, But to say that
they leaned too far into it, you have to acknowledge, well, what
was the alternative They didn't have money to spend. Do you think that they
could have done better than Reggie Jackson with the miniml E Maybe, but who
was the most impactful miniml E signing this year? It was like you had
guys on minimums hitting harder, like a Kelly Hubray junior who really wouldn't have
done much for this team anyway. And so there's that element to it.
The other one is though we can also now Jamal Curry's Jamal Curry, Jamal
Murray's calf wasn't right, and that created this variance in his performance that,
yeah, he was good enough for them to win Game seven. He hit
very big shots against the Lakers in the first round as well, and there's
always been variance to his performance, but it was more turbulent this year than
most. So that's a I think a reasonable excuse. But when you look
at kind of the way in which they ended up losing, where it was
their offense that kind of failed them, and it was just I know,
it's just the Wolves, but like when you have a team that can disrupt
how you want to run Jokic and Murray together and then really just disrupt even
Jokic who can still have these great games. But how much credit do you
ascribe to the Wolves for you know, kind of like going after Michael not
even going after like Michael Porter Junior has a hard series for him, single
digits in the final four games. I think he scored. He apologized after
the game to his team and felt like if he played better, they would
have won. I mean, he's right, but like it doesn't just fall
out his shoulders. And so you could look at this as if Murray's healthier,
if Michael Porter Junior hit shots, and I know, what do you
have nine boards in game seven? But there was like two issues where just
Nasred comes in and like did he didn't even like have him on his radar,
like come slying in from the corner for that put back dunk in game
seven. There is issues with a bunch of people in this one. So
I think you can look at the Nuggets and say they might just be back
here next year. They might be better than the Timberwolves. I just I'll
throw The thing I'll note though, is you have to get to a point
where you have more than six guys that you trust. Yeah, And I
don't know how they get there. They if look, Casep has a player
option, and if you with his cat hold, which is like twenty two
plus million right now, they're about ten million dollars into the Supertax had Tom
Keith Smith of Spowtrack for coining that. I just I don't think he gets
twenty two million. But even if he just picks up his player option,
they're and maybe they extend him off that number. And that's how they save
some money in the short term, but they're in the supertax and I'm assuming
they'll pay it for at least one year. But how do you get better
aside from internal development? And that might be a like you have Reggie Jackson.
I assume he'll pick up his player option. That's a little over five
million. Zeke Nausey's extension kicks in. That helps you from a salary matching
perspective, but oh hey, you can't aggregate salaries and so Zeke Nausey being
your best trade ship at eight point nine million on an extension that look,
he gets three fully or is it four? Yeah, it's four guaranteed years.
Because he has that player option for twenty seven to twenty eight. There
aren't gonna be teams that just what. He didn't do anything for you this
year. So even if you were willing to attack attach, you're I think
they can trade their twenty thirty one draft pick. Or even if you're willing
to attach, you can't even attach a player. And so that's what gets
super challenging. You have to believe that this core is it and you're gonna
get enough internal development from Peyton Watson on offense from Julian Strauther just I know
he got injured in the middle of the year and that kind of shook him
up. But are you gonna trust Jail and Pickett next year to handle some
backup point guard minutes? Oh, by the way, you have the Aaron
Gordan at the five button still, but you kind of still lead a backup
big who isn't Andre Jordan's Ignaci At this point, I would argue, and
if you want to make a meaningful change, how what is who's getting traded?
It's not gonna be Jokic. I don't think it's gonna be Murray.
I don't really think it can be Gordon. Now you're looking at Michael porter
junior trades. That still seems like an overreaction though to how this season ended.
Yeah, everything kind of does, right because normally, normally in this
situation, if this so hanging over, every piece of Nuggets analysis will do,
whether it's got to do with the series that was just completed or what
they need to do to improve themselves in the offseason, is colored by the
fact that they that were making those assessments based on how they looked against like
maybe the best playoff defense we've seen in like fifteen years or like you know,
I don't know what. You almost can't get to hyperbolic about how good
defensively Minnesota was just I mean obviously in this series, but all season just
far and away the best, like that second half of Gain seven specifically,
though I have and not just like oh they're athletic and young and big.
It's like, no, they really excelled at like let's make you'll get shoot
ten threes, like that's what we want him to do, and we'll wear
him out because anytime he touches it inside the three point line, we send
two and so now he's tired. So when we leave him to shoot those
threes, he's exhausted. That's hard. Like it wasn't just a physical advantage,
like this was a ton of talent deployed really intelligently. So like,
yeah, it would be great if Michael Porter Junior could like do a little
more with the ball so that he's not just someone that you close out to
and as long as he doesn't get a three up like success for the defense,
sure that'd be great. Like if some of the young guys were a
little readier, like Peyton Watson basically not playing. I gotta believe almost any
other opponent other than Minnesota he would have played like you just you couldn't put
him out there against the defense that good. I think, so all those
things are just of a part of a larger package where it's like, you
gotta get KCP back, and you got to get a little more from Christian
Brown and a little more from Watson, and maybe one of the like the
other you know, guys from the batch of young players that kind of count
as a second timeline, but are also kind of like if KCP leaves insurance,
like Straw the Pickett, Hunter, Tyson, like all these guys,
maybe one of them can give you fifteen minutes or ten minutes in a playoff
game by next year. And so if you're Denver, it's just like,
sometimes it's impossible to be like far and away the title favorite, and the
best you can ever expect to do is to like be in that mix,
which Denver very much is, and with any improvement at all, is at
the top of that mix next year. So it's just like it's really hard
to evaluate kind of soberly, just because that Minnesota defense was so good and
you can't like make and yeah, maybe it'll be there next year. Maybe
it will be as good, but maybe not. And like if it's ninety
eight percent as good, maybe Denver wins the next time they play at playoffs.
As Oh what if Jane McDaniels is ninety eight percent better on offense?
You've seen it. I mean it could go either way, Like we could
be back here next year and Minnesota has taken a step forward and Denver is
the same or slightly. That's a six game series or a five game series
or something. But yeah, like the it feels to me just because I
just mentioned Strawther and Pickett and all those guys, like they feel like they
weren't supposed to help this year, but they were supposed to be hypothetically ready.
If you're planning this far out for the possibility of losing Caldwell Pope,
I think, or for Reggie Jackson declining his option and leaving and suddenly like
you just need that like backup point guard spot to be filled by someone cheap.
And I was gonna ask you, I agree with what you just said,
and I the Peyton Watson thing. If you're looking for something to find
unsettling him, not you could say, Okay, well it's only against the
Timberwolves, and it's well, guess what. Like that is probably one of
the if we're looking ahead to next season right now, we need to go
through free agency, the draft trays YadA, ya YadA. That's one of
the two or three teams that Denver is gonna need to go through. Sure,
anyway like that the primary teams are gonned to go through. I think
where it would be time and this would flip a bunch of our analysis on
its head is if they decide that they can't, and it's not an issue
of can't, it would be an issue of when I best says won't pay
KDP and that's when it's okay, Now, you just lost two of your
top six guys from that initial title. Bruce Brown, you couldn't pay.
I don't think I saw anyone frame it as they could. You couldn't.
We'll move on the way. But like if you don't, I know he
had a rough offensive playoffs. He was second team All Defense for me this
year, and I think he deserved it. He's thirty one, his best
days are probably behind him. He's too important to what you're doing now,
and I think we've now proven unless you're just going to get a monster offensive
leap from Peyton Watson next year. But I even look at Christian Brown now,
you still need stuff from him offensively, specifically three point shooting. You
can't just insert insert by the way Christian Brown. I was a believer in
him last year rickety points this season offensively, I'm just after the Timberwolves here.
He was their best probably their best Afy edwards defender. I know I
work on him. He's gonna have a role like no matter if his offense
doesn't change at all, he's gonna have that same role or a bigger one
going forward. But you can't. I'm not at the point where I could
say, well you put him in for KCP. No, and it like
we're kind of like you nudged him up the pecking order and you were fine
for Bruce Brown. I just this would go one too far. They're just
not ready for it yet, and I don't know how they Bringing back KCP
at least gives them more time to plan around like this. Oh if we
if they decide they need to get cheaper that they can't afford these guys.
But even when you go that route. This is actually my actual question to
you, is there ever room or should there be room? Should they have
already made more room to see if Michael Porter Junior can do more offensively because
of what you just mentioned where you're talking about. By the way, by
the end of this series, it was even if Michael Porter Junior was taking
a three, it was kind of a win for the most but like for
him to do more with where he goes up against these lanky and physical defenses,
and like if you bump him off the three point line or he's not
open, there's only so much that he can reasonably do, And it's do
they need someone more who can punish mismatches in the post or operate more off
the dribble. And then the twofold question off of that is should you make
room for Michael porter to Junior to do that during the regular season next year?
But also two like do you even want him shouldering that type of load
because with that, does it increase his exposure to back issues where if he's
trying to bang in the post or just take these guys more off the dribble
and follow through on all of his drives, or if you're also going to
task him with doing some playmaking. Not only is there the extra physical toll,
but you're gonna have to deal with some turnovers there, buddies. Yeah,
I think if if he it feels like a lot to ask, But
because of what we've just spent time talking about, where it's like, I
mean, it's more likely to me that they lose KCP then they bring in
like a level of player that because they just can't that's at kcp's level or
higher. I think most likely they will just keep him and pay what it
costs and deal with it. But if you had to choose between are they
gonna lose him or bring somebody else in like that is as valuable as KCP,
it sort of has to be the former because they're just they don't have
the ability to bring in someone. So anyway, it's not the Porter question.
It's it's fascinating because like he would have to be the thing with the
Nuggets is they are had until this series been able to like get to what
they wanted to, which is just a heavy heavy dose of Jokic and Murray
when they really needed to score. And so like, yeah, to your
point, like I don't know if you wanna take away from those reps because
you're giving Porter Junior like more more chances, I guess, or just giving
him a bigger share of the offense. But like I guess, yeah,
if you're gonna play a good enough defense that can actually take away the effectiveness
of some of Jokich's game and some of Murray's game, you do just need
it to come from somewhere else. And I think of the other three starters,
like it's probably it's definitely not KCP, it's not Gordon unless like in
terms of like can you score against like a defense that has overloaded to Yokichen
Murray, it sort of has to be Porter Junior. I don't even know
what that looks like, because he's not someone that's gonna like run a second
side pick and roll, you know, with any regularity. It's gonna have
to be like a fake, you know, drive the clothes out, either
finish at the rim or make the next pass for an open three, which,
again, like Denver was pretty happy, I mean, Minnesota was pretty
happy giving up threes as long as you weren't getting anything close. So like
I guess, I guess, like, yeah, because we're banking on organic
growth, like as the Nugget's best way to improve, Guys like Porter Junior
do have to add like five percent more, you know, as an off
the dribble score or something like that, because where else where else is it
going to come from. You can't say, oh, Yokic needs to be
better. It's like he's as good as a human can be. And like
Murray, yeah, more consistency would be great, but I don't know how
to evaluate that given the calf injury. And I think for people that are
probably maybe and I would say I'm maybe slightly uncomfortable with kind of where the
Nuggets go from here, because now you're so dependent on internal development. But
the fact that maybe they understood this or decided this before we thought they needed
to be that dependent bo as well for them. But if you're looking to
actually overreact or be more like our analysis down to the Nuggs just gonna be
right back here next year and they need to be incrementally better somehow, that's
not spicy. The spiciness could come. I think there's probably like three or
four Flash Bowl potential developments. It's we already mentioned one, the KCP free
agency. Now the extension eligibility. This is too for Aaron Gordon and Jamal
Murray if like you don't even hear whispers that those talks are happenings, probably
specifically with Murray just because he becomes a free agent after next year. I
think that's a last year of his contract he'll be unrestricted. That would be
the one where it's okay, what is going on here? And then the
other one and I don't think if they don't extend either of them, like
maybe there's just something like the Murray one is probably a bigger one than the
Gordon just from a how committed are you to continuing to pay for this corps?
And then so that's that's three of those. And then the final one
would also be if you start to hear talk of Michael Porter junior trades and
the returns that you're hearing are like, oh, there are these teams that
have cap space or out of like traded player exceptions, and there's draft equity
being rumored. That's when you get worried if they, like I would even
be a little bit worried if they decided that they wanted to break him up
into like two or three players just because well, what does that say about
your faith in your internal development. But if you start like hearing those whispers,
that's when you start getting concerned because it means, oh, they just
watched this guy, but they just got punked by the guy that they could
have kept. Good for Tim Connolly. And if you're Stan Cronky and you're
looking at this, like I think as a competitor, I'd be like,
well, I need to prove that, like, yeah, they want a
title without him already, but it was with Tim Connolly's roster infrastructure. You
should double down and spend more. But if they go into like cost cutting
mode or even just sniffing around it, this isn't the level of they were
able to save money and get KCP. There will not be a move out
there that makes me feel the same way about this. And so if you're
looking to overreact to the Nuggets and their future, I just don't think you
could do it right now. But those are the things I would be monitoring
to see if this team is tilting in a direction that it should not be.
And of those of those options you laid out, I think an MPG
trade has to register as the most Like I don't know most I guess most
likely and sort of the cleanest way to get maybe better without you know,
without organic growth, like just because think of the if if MPJ is going
to be in this role, which is like a limited role, right,
like he's nowhere close to your best defender. You don't need him as like,
oh we got to have his length on this guy. And on offense,
he's no higher than third on the on in the pecking order, and
given like the amount of facilitation Aaron Gordon has to do, maybe fourth,
So like you really could split him into two guys, one of which is
like I don't know, eighty percent eighty five percent of the offensive player just
in that role of like a catch and shoot guy. So then someone that
can defend, Like I don't know, there's there's ways to go there if
you split him, And it would be semi interesting if I didn't think that
the shooting that Michael Porter Junior provides is I think more valuable to this team
than people realize because the number I'll die on this hill. They didn't shoot
particularly well during the playoffs from they like they don't take enough threes, and
I understand that a lot of that is just like look at how they're generating
their offense do they need to? But like when you're talking about like making
up a variance where it's just like if you see the Timberwolves, like when
they were kind of up by seven inside two minutes, I know Denver's offense
is Denver's offense is Denver's offense, but it was just like, oh,
it's over. Yeah. And then certainly when they go up ten with three
men, you'res like it's over. And because they're just not a team that
really goes to three point volume that way, and Michael Porter Junior at least
gives you that idea, and how are you getting a player who replicates that?
Well? Then also deepening your rotation. I agree with you that the
cleanest way to deepen your rotation of proven players would be to trade Michael Porter
Junior. But you also get into the issue of, well are you trading
him I don't want to say it. Then the idea of his value but
for less than he means to you, because you just perfectly outlaid his role
and how it's limited. Who's looking at his salary and saying, well,
I want to pay him max money without knowing whether he can actually do much
more. He's their number three point five option. You call him. Are
we in a position to pay max money for that when we don't know if
he could do more or even just to put him in the same role,
And so that like you get into weird territory with that, which is why
I'm just at this point, you're kind of married to the like the that's
not the two timelines, but if you're married to your internal development and so
I'm like, you run back your core five yeah, and hope that you
get enough breaks offensively from Christian Brown and from Peyton Watson. Maybe Strather or
Pickick can come in and give you minutes next year, maybe hunter Tyson can
do something. But like, you're kind of and could you hit on a
minimum? I you know I had thrown out the idea actually wrote about it
is. I know his Philly homecoming was cool, but like, if you
wanted to go ring chasing and you're willing to sign for them, like Kyle
Lowr would be fantastic for this team. I don't think he sells everything,
but it's like that's someone else who could give you different layers of offense,
even at his age. Right now, I just who are they gonna hit
on and like, but maybe that we're talking about them getting incrementally better or
deeper, you could feasibly do that just by signing the right minimum guy.
Yeah, And it's like at the end of it, it's this is not
an uncommon position for a champion, a past champion to be in where it's
like now, because it's you cannot get here without being expensive, basically with
very few exceptions. And so now it's just like we need one or two
guys to hit that haven't contributed yet. And that's not the that's not the
most unlikely outcome in the world. It's like I keep thinking back to uh,
some of those Spurs teams where it's like they never went back to back.
They just they'd get there, they'd win it, they'd come close or
not that close sometimes the following year, and then you know, two years
later they'd win it again. And it might have been because like Tony Parker
took a step or like they suddenly got Danny Green or they you know that
whatever it is, like it's the model we never mattered this time, or
like you say all the time, Sorry, I'm trying to I'm trying to
quote you to you. We love Danny Green around here, we do.
Everybody loves Danny Green or just so it's weirdly like there's a blueprint here for
the Nuggets and the Spurs pulled it off for like fifteen years, where you
just kind of try to stay as close to this good as you can and
it's gonna look a little different on the margins for a while, but you've
got the main piece in Jokic, and you can just like you know,
hope one or two guys pop so you get a second rounder somewhere and he
turns into a guy that can give you twenty minutes and like you're just there.
So again, this is all circling back to, like you just I
can't panic here. I can't do it because they're so good still, and
you saying the Spurs made me think of this, and then I have a
question for you to wrap it up. I think that's maybe a different podcast,
But the observation here is how did they win their first title by not
overreacting to these postseason failures? And I thought, I don't know if you
saw the Michael Malone quote, I thought he phrased it perfectly. Failure is
not fatal. It's like you could be pissed that they blew the twenty point
lead, but they also lost to a team that quite they were the Timberwolves
were better than the Nuggets. Like that's just we can say it now.
They were at least in the discussion beforehand. So you got to this point
by not overreacting. Why are you going to overreact now when there's nothing you
look at, Well, again the core five specific like you're starting lineup and
saying there's no reason, But what is the reason that they could not be
back here next year aside from injuries? Is do you see regression coming from
anyone aside from KCP And probably not? No. Uh. The one thing
I will ask though, just because you are getting into his next contract,
Jamal Murray, Yeah, we need that the ship has said. I know
he was injured, but the ship has sailed, and maybe he'll make an
All Star team. But like there was talk after last year, in part
because he's said so many big playoff shots about where does he rank kind of
in the pantheon of NBA stars, And like the answer is he doesn't.
That is this is very much someone who I view as predicated on playing alongside
Nicole Jokic, and while he may fit and optimize what Jokic does, he
doesn't elevate NICOLEA. Jokic to me, although, but the question would be,
because he is coming up on his next contract, could you plug someone
else? Like and I'm not even saying like, well, Jalen Pickett instead
of like trade Murray and like let give the keys. It's just is what
because what Jokic does is indispensable? Is what Murray does? Because the way
he plays off Jokic, What what Murray does himself is absolutely it's not dispensable.
It can be replicated by someone else. Yeah, what he does alongside
Yokic? Is that replicable? And is it? Is the answer? Just
even if you think it is, is the answer still just no? Because
they've been together for so long. Isn't there a case to be made that
Murray is one of the hardest players to evaluate in the league just because of
like he's played his entire career as far as like his relevant is relevant NBA
existence has been alongside Jokic, and so it's like, what does he even
look like if he's if he's spent his career on another team, Like what
type of player is he, Like, how do we how do we regard
him? Like is he do we think he's like a microwave six man or
something like with more defense? Maybe, I don't know, weird he said
Jordan Clarkson because I was gonna say that name too. I think he's better
than Jordan Clarkson just he's bigger. But but still like there's a non zero
chance that we regard Murray as like, yeah, he's a nice player,
you know, Karris Lavert or something, you know, Spencer Dinwiddie like something
something like probably not like that, But so I think like because of the
whole, like Jokic, would you know, say like you can't get rid
of this guy. I love him. He would say that about a lot
of people. I think. I do think it is fair though to say,
like Murray, what Murray does independent of Jokic is not something that you
would have a hard time like finding on the market under normal circumstances. Now
Denver doesn't have the resources to do that, But like, yeah, I
take your point, like he's not we don't need to keep doing the you
know, he's never been an All Star, can you believe it? Like
no, all NBA. It's like, yeah, hasn't been that good,
Like he's a really good player, but if he's the second best player on
like a normal team, a team's not that great. There is value and
that's I don't want to denigrate him as a player, it's just I think
it's time to have that conversation because what he does with Jokic, even if
it's just a matter of because they've spent so long together, so you have
that like telepathic chemistry that you're probably not going to be able just to duplicate.
But it was I just thought about it, like even where Jokic was
having just like rougher games or when it's like they're throwing like eight bodies at
Jokic and it's like like Murray could I know he was injured, but just
and he's hit big shots in the playoffs. But we just have so much
data, particularly during the non Yolkic minutes of Okay, there's limitations to what
Jamal Murray is outside of the the Nicole Jokic bubble. Yeah, like if
that's Kyrie for just to pick somebody in that spot, the Nuggets are better,
don't you think, Like just because he if if you're not sh in
the semifinals. Yeah, you know, you're right, You're right. Yeah,
I don't know if that that is an interesting piece. We've probably gone
long enough here on the Nuggets. Do you want to talk about the Thunder
or the Knicks next? I have rants on both, So which one won't
you take? Us? You did the intro, you have to direct this,
Okay, I think we should do the Knicks. So I'll just just
be some stray thoughts and then you can rants or take one, whichever one
you like and run with it. Like so I said that at the top
for different reasons the three teams that were eliminated, like don't need to panic
so much. And for the Knicks, it's obviously just because you didn't have
anything close to the team you thought you were going to have by the time
this series was over. That the injuries are what they were. That I
think raises as many questions as it like puts off as far as like,
well, I mean, what do what do you want them to do?
It's like, okay, but what about next year when you're trying to figure
out, leave aside what it may cost to keep Anonobe and Hertenstein, Like
I don't think Julius Randall is part of your best five next year? Like
I just whatever that looks like, I don't think that's the case. So
what do we do there? And then how do you assuming your whole Like
how do you toggle the This is a little bit like the MPGA question,
but from a different angle, Like the Knicks are very good when Alan Brunson
is extremely high usage, but it's also not ideal because you can game plan
against that as a defense and he's gonna wear down and all this other stuff.
So what are you gonna do to lighten his load? And how do
you strike that right balance with a healthy roster of like, Okay, we
don't need Brunson initiating every play, but things kind of go best when he
does. So where do those touches go if it's Randall, if it's somebody
else? Like how do you balance things back out when you do have a
you know, an actual rotation and guys aren't just gonna be out there for
forty minutes and you play with like one look the whole time. So yeah,
I I don't know if you want to start with like what went wrong
for the Knicks or where they go? But I think they're all kind of
like, it's all kind of of a piece to me, Well, it's
it's what went wrong is they ran out of bodies. It's just that's just
And I'm not saying maybe the pacers still went anyway, but if you're if
you're trying to conduct this in an alternate like, what could they have done
differently? It's be healthier. And do you believe that that was controllable?
Which I think this lead in to an interesting question which I actually don't think
it's even close to their biggest question of the off season. Tims is going
to sign an extension. It sounds like Fred Kautza, the athletic reporter,
that talks are ongoing. He was asked about it after a game seven too,
and he said, my agents will will handle that. He has changed
the culture there and the players love playing for him. And I think there
are two takes that are so unbelievably stupid that they bend my brain and so
and I will say one of them is a little bit more convincing than the
other, but there was an I'm not ascribing Minor Grant's opinion to anything I'm
about to say, but I found this one tweet interesting that someone retweeted into
my timeline from at Flows ends Olini the TIBs era. One. Tibbs changes
the culture. Players embrace hard work. Two players performed beyond expectations. Three
a star is born or brought over four expectations for him. Five a deep
playoff run is expected. Six freak injuries. Seven fans defend TIBs hard.
Eight players aren't the same next year. Nine fans turn on Tibbs. Ten
he's fired. I take freak injuries as a joke there to say Tibbs's minutes
management is the reason that these injuries happen. I don't know that I find
that tweet particularly compelling because he wasn't in Minnesota long enough to do damage to
anyone. And then if you're going back to his Chicago days, it's okay,
was he Derek Rose was so young when he tours ACL Jimmy Butler has
like blossom into a superstar after and he wasn't even playing as much under TIBs
as he was for I guess when he got to Minnesota for sure. So
like, do you describe any of the issues that Jimmy Butler's now battling.
We know about the lubell dang the joke, you knowa stuff people describe that
to Tibbs. I think it's more of a situation like, are we concerned
about Joleen Brunson, Josh Hart coming back next year? Even Randall is his
body Like because of the usage that they have now amassed under Tibbs, are
we concerned about how that's going to impact them in the future. I will
go to the flip side of this argument, where people think the Knicks are
built for this hashtag built for this because they played so much in the regular
season, and I find both sides of that fence to be incredibly reductive.
I want to see more information done that would then specifically relate to tims.
But the load management specifically, we've seen players who are load managed. Kawhi
Leonard still not available, and in this season it's he wasn't load managed and
look what happened, and that's yeah, he played a ton of minutes,
but it wasn't even close to the most in the league. It was enough
to be in the All NBA discussion. And if you're a star, you
should play enough to be in the All Like the goal is to play enough
to be in that discussion, and I'm not gonna assign a ton of value
to the NBA saying like, we really haven't found a correlation between load and
management and health because of your business interests. And that came out just so
happened to me while you're negotiating your next TV contract. I need to see
more, like if you want to if you want to believe that, I
think it's a fair discussion to have. I think the other one is just
less fair where look, that could be discuss but again, I need to
see the data where it's well, that's why the Knicks are ready for this
because they played all these minutes in the regular season. That argument no longer
holds as much water when literally everybody was injured and tied, like Isaiah Hartenstein,
Dante Deven, the guys who weren't dealing with the actual like, oh,
we're gonna diagnose this down to one or two injuries like they did with
Brunchin or Josh Hart and it's okay, Like they looked higher like Dante DiVincenzo
just faded out by that, So you can't. I just I don't know
what to make of it. But what I the final thing I will say
before throwing it to you. Is the injury I look at that seemed like
it could be with regards to overuse. Is the Oji Ananobi hamstring thing,
which I don't know if it was always the plan to Yang came after four
minutes, and you need to give credit to Tibbs to looking at him move
like he had a walker basically in his hand and pulling him. It is
it is, it was. It was unnecessarily reckless to play him. That
was just I know he only played four or five minutes. He hits two
shots. What are we fucking doing? You're like you got him for the
longer term, and even if he won this series, you were just gonna
get absolutely trucked over by that. I just that Tim said he wouldn't have
played if the medical staff didn't clear him. Fred Katz had the report that
ogn Andobi's been lobbying to play. Part of your job is to save players
from themselves. You ultimately did it after four minutes. But what what was
the point? Honestly, what was the point? I think that was stupid.
But independent of that is once Ognnobi started playing, the ton Dennis just
we're already down guys, and you know who wasn't overused like Boian Madonovitch got
injured anyway and got in Mitchell Robinson, he wasn't really being overused. Did
he come back too soon? That's a fair question. I'm Julius Randall that
he gets injured in the middle of the year and can't come back, so
you already down bodies. If you want to criticize Tim's minutes minutes management this
season, it's okay. Should Alec Burks and boy and Bogdanovich have played more
after the trade deadline? Spoiler at the answer is yes, but I don't
know what that does in terms of preserving other people's bodies. And finally,
and I'm curious where you land on this. I know I'm throwing a lot
of things out you like, these are the playoffs if you want your team
to win the playoffs? Is relying on your own guys so much, especially
when your alternatives are just non existent? Is there? Where's the cardinal sin
there? I don't think it's something that Tibbs deserves to be lauded for.
I think that is to take to spun way out of it, like Tims
might be honest, something that let's just play our best players as many minutes
as possible. So I just want to know where you land on that,
because I don't have a strong enough take other than to say that we just
don't have the information to know who if anyone, including TIB's is responsible for
where the Knicks is health, not just wound up this season, but if
there's gonna be this long term correlation with guys like brunts in and Heart and
Devincenzo and and even Randall. Yeah, I mean, I guess the answer
to like the list of Thibodeau things we're on like number eight now, I
guess, and it would be how do they look next year? I guess
we'll see, right, Like we'll find out. So that part is at
least, like by definition, uncertain. I think just everything else you mentioned
is also kind of uncertain. I will say, like in my heart,
what I like believing and the side of this that like feels just kind of
yeah, that feels persuasive, Like that scratches a weird like logical itch is
the idea that you can condition players to hold up for longer stretches of playing
time. I like, I do think that just like checks out to me
like that I think I've mentioned this specifically before, of like the idea that
like if you train harder for something, you will get in better shape,
Like that is just like that's a fact, as long as you don't train
so hard that you injure yourself or and then you either can't continue training or
your like top level is diminished. Like that's sure, Like that's logical too.
I'm persuaded by the idea that you can get guys conditioned acclimated to forty
minutes. I do think that's that that seems plausible to me, And I
do think for stretches of this postseason run, the Knicks did look like the
best conditioned team out there because they had guys winning hustle battles for offensive rebounds
and getting on the floor laden games when their opponents, who did not play
as long or as much or as hard as the Knicks did all year,
like, weren't able to summon like that level of I don't know, stamina,
intensity, whatever it is. So there's something there to me. And
then I guess I don't maybe this feels like a cop out, but you
don't really get to fully consider, like how at fault whatever. I know
that's not your phrasing, but like how dangerous TIBs strategy of like leaning on
guys for ridiculous you know, playing time demands is because like what did you
We've talked about this too, what did you want him to do? Like
who did you want him to dust off? To get Josh Hart? Like
eight ten? It's like if you want to play him quote like a normal
load, like who was on the bench, Like we saw Jericho Simms for
a second and both of us were like, oh my god, Like that
guy couldnot get back in the series for the Knicks. It's it's like untenable.
Well that would have been the case if he would have reached deeper into
the bench for other guys like out he dusted off Alec Burks and like holy
shit, Alec Burks was like really good for stretches, not because he rested
so much. I'm right, it was he fresh, Well, that was
what it was. Is because he didn't play him at all. He was
saving right, So like he dug his deep into that bench as as was
like realistically possible unless you were just gonna give quarters away or give five minutes
away at a time. Uh, in a in a game where you just
can't do that, So that's off the table. I don't know. I
like, I like like you. I think if you're one hundred percent on
the Well, Thibodeau ran him into the ground. This is his fault.
You can't do this to guys. Look at all the load managing all these
other teams are doing. Clearly that was the case versus Well. I think
he was dead right, Like he maximized this team's potential, and that's because
he pushed this team harder than anyone else would have pushed him, and they
excelled for that reason. Like, I think, I think you got to
be in the middle somewhere, and I don't know where that is. I'm
leaning more towards the I like that he pushed them hard, and I like
the results they got. And really, at the end of the day,
like if this team's fully healthy, and that includes Julius Randall playing a huge
role, I'm not sure they make it any farther than this. You know,
I don't think you would not have I would never have put the Knicks
in the conference finals with with like the lineup they started the season with.
And I guess you throw Og in there. And if he's healthy. It's
a totally different thing because they were so good with him. But I just
feel like, however you finagled the minutes and the bodies and whatever, like
this is this is as far as the Knicks were going like this this maybe
maybe they could have advanced to the conference finals, but I wouldn't have picked
them to win, So like this is about right for them, even if
it feels like, you know, this was such a strange way to arrive
at the conclusion of their season. I think where I and I'm with him
thing you said and even to then, like your thoughts on the conditioning that
oh, you can play this much, And that's to say, I don't
you tiber always responsible for anything that happened to the Knicks injury rits this season.
I do think it's an interesting long term discussion to where, Okay,
yes, you're conditioned to play forty minutes a game when you're in your twenties,
but now that you have these guys that are gonna be on their contracts
into their thirties, is does that one still work too? If it doesn't,
is Tim's the guy to manage their workload, and that, to me
is probably the primary issue especially when it comes to og Anobi, because when
he got injured, by the way, people were acting like he had never
played a ton of minutes before. Motherfucking nick nurse didn't care about oj Anobi's
limbs and that though, like that matters in the sense of you're gonna like
og Anoby's always dealing with something like got out of bed and sprained his ankle
like or something like stepped out of bed the wrong way, And so is
Thibodeau the guy to not play him a ton of minutes if that's what he
does. He understand his players's limits, and I would say you probably need
to give him the benefit of the doubt based off how many of yeah,
okay, players who don't who aren't on the Knicks don't like him. Everyone
who's on the Knicks seems to love him. And it's I guess a lot
of people didn't like him in Minnesota, but in Chicago it was kind of
the same way. And yes, you need to save players from themselves.
That's also wanted, like that's why you have a training staff that's not Tibbs.
As like if the call was TIBs is to make on whether og Annobi
would play or not, and he wasn't cleared by the medical staff. That's
just franchise malpractice. It doesn't operate that way. So I think the agenda
against Tibbs is just so overblown, is where I land. But I will
say to think that he's just on to something. Revelatory is also a name.
Yeah, it's gotta be somewhere in the MI can ask you a couple
of kind of semi specific nixt questions that I'm just curious about, unless you
have something else you want to hit on the Knicks here. Can you hear
Cosmo yelping in the background at all? No? Okay, good? Because
he is upset. I think he falls on the side of I don't know
if he's oh that's the nature of this gusion. I don't know if he's
pro load management or playing guys twenty minutes to have an opinion. He's got
an opinion. Can we got to bert he No, he's asleep, he's
right here, dead silent. Uh so Anonobi and Hartenstein, uh free agents
Hardenstein. The most the Knicks can pay him, I think is like just
under seventy three over four years yep og whatever they want, you know,
But they don't have a thirty million dollar player. It would be weird if
he became the first guy on this team. He's not the best player that's
making thirty Sometimes that happens. Is there a risk maybe, list I don't
know. I don't know which gimmick to use here, like your concern level
or just it seems like the odds are both of those guys will be back
that no team out there is gonna say, og, we're gonna full max
you and the Knicks are like, can't, can't get there, or we're
gonna give Hartenstein, you know, four for you just make it so the
next are like, now we can't afford that, or we don't want to
do that four years and seventy two point six instead, Yeah, just vie.
Whatever it is, just is is there a risk for either of them
being gone? And then if not, what does having them both back at
those new big numbers do like for the next Because I think hanging over all
this is we still think the Knicks need a player who's like at least as
good as Brunson, maybe not quite good. They need their second best player.
And I think it's they've made progress in the sense that we probably would
have even said at the start of this season they still need their first best
player. You did say that. Yeah, so the fact that they can
now say second best player, it's still a pretty big deal. But it's
also a big deal that they don't have to say first best player. Yeah.
Uh so, I think so cart beside's the bigger flight risk, just
because there's a cap on what they can offer him. Of the four years
and seventy two point five that you mentioned, I think they will offer to
him. But it's also he seems like a fake flight risk in the sense
that who's going to meaningfully come over the top of that to give him,
Like it's just the look at the teams with cap space. I guess the
Pistons could use him, But are you gonna start him over Duran? Yeah?
Well, Orlando, no kill me. I like you have no like
you just like you want to fuck with the Knicks that much that Yeah,
we's gonna have two bigs. I guess if you're gonna think that Joel'll be
the only plays like forty five games a season or something. So I think
he's back and that number is fine because Mitchell Robinson's deal is declining and is
not huge. And so if you start off, like just to just to
ballpark the numbers here, if you're gonna have Isaiah Harten sign at about seventeen
million dollars annually or whatever it ends up being, and then you're gonna tack
that onto uh, Mitchell Robinson's salary, which for next season is fourteen and
like thirty something million dollars in your in your entire center rotation. That's fine.
So that's not a huge difference. OG is interesting because I don't think
he's a flight risk because he can't. You don't trade two of your core
players, even if RJ. Barrett kind of regressed out of that discussion.
So another team can offer Og four years and one hundred and eighty one point
I think five million or something around there. So the Knicks can offer him
like four years and one hundred and eighty nine and a half, and so
that's just money that like, they could also offer him a five year deal.
Oh no, I'm actually wrong on the number that they could offer OG.
I haven't written down. So it's four years and one hundred and eighty
one point nine. From other teams, they could give him one hundred and
eighty nine point five over four. I was right. I should trust myself.
The five year max is two hundred and forty five point three million dollars.
This is where things get interesting for me. I'll be shocked if he
gets the five year max. I'm wondering if this unfolds in the vein of
do the Knicks just max mat over four years from the jump and because they
know that. Look the teams that have cap space that I think you would
need to watch, Okasee, Philly and Detroit Orlando could use it, but
you probably want someone with more balls. Anyone can use og Anobe. Let's
be attack clear, like those are the teams where it's ill mean, we're
gonna get into the thunder. Like if you put og on the Thunder,
I'm probably picking them to win the title next year, straight up. I
have someone else for them. But yeah, it was so is it Daniel
Gafford spoiler alert? But so I want to see where he ends up because
it's there's a bunch of questions where it's so they just give him the four
year max because of what's else out there on the market. Is there a
fifty year carrot involved where he's below the max? And at a lower annual
number, but you've now beaten out other offers, so this makes you more
manageable on a per year basis, where it's like if they were So I
don't know if that's an option or do we see him just get less than
we expect because you're a non superstar in the super tax era and teams are
not just looking at their payroll for next season now they're scaling two, three,
four or five years and beyond five years is probably too long, but
you get my point there. So I'm actually more interested in his free agency
even though he's less likely to leave. Does that make any sense? Yeah,
no, it does it. It's kind of the same almost. I
mean, I guess this checks out, but like it kind of feels the
same as the Siakham situation in Indi Indiana, where it's like you can't let
him go, but that fifth year and that number that gets way up over
two hundred gets a little scary. So it seems to me, like,
to answer my own question, the most likely outcome for him is the one
you set up where it's like they go four year max. For I'm talking
Sam and Anonobi, that will be the best offer available because no one else
can beat that, and if he's if either of them is pissed off because
they're not getting the fifth year, like tough, you're not gonna get it
from anybody. So just like it's a little uncomfortable to spend that much,
especially on the Ananobe side, just because like you know, injuries, injuries,
and and I don't know, now I'm questioning whether that's true. Siakam
just seems like someone maybe because his team's still playing that likes offer, whereas
Anonobe is like Ananoby's an A plus role player and Yakama I think of a
little bit differently, like he's like a B plus second star, which it
feels like s the you know, two different categories. You probably could argue
the injuries without Anobe matter, but his game, because he doesn't do as
much offensively, it should probably age better. Although I guess defending five positions
is I don't know, but yeah, anyway, I don't think either of
them are serious flight risks, but it is like that's a thing the Knicks
are going to have to consider, and that's all tied into like the pursuit
of the next you know, the other star, and that's so Fred Katz
and The Athletic also reported this in kind of his semi finals wrap up piece,
that the Knicks are going to be on the hunt for that star,
but I actually there's other So the star search dovetails with Julius Randol's future.
He's extension eligible. The more, I don't know if it's fascinating and it's
not really a choice you have to make. But you offer Jalen Brunson the
extension that he is eligible for, which is the Knicks can pay him four
years and one hundred and fifty six point five million about and so it would
sign him, he declines his player option for twenty five twenty six, and
then you would have him under locking key through two thousand and twenty eight twenty
twenty nine at this point if he signs and so it's it's basically adding an
extra year onto his deal at a higher number. However, if you're Jalen
Brunson, next year's your age twenty eight season, so you're looking at four
years and one hundred and fifty six point five million, that would you know
that's I mean, it's a good amount of money. But if you wait
to go into free agency to climb your player option, you would be eligible
for money that is well more than that, Like we're talking. I think
it's four years, yeah, and or four years and two oh nine.
So that's a lot of money. And I think he's probably young enough to
where you could say, yeah, you just wait because even if you don't
get the full max, some team is going to pay you more than four
years and one hundred and fifty seven million dollars. But is there like sort
of a revelatory moment for him where oh, shit, can go sideways real
fast because I just fractured my hand and injured my leg and so I'm just
gonna take this guaranteed money. And is there some weird allegiance to not weird,
but some loyalty to well, this is the organization, this is the
city that gave me the keys and also oversaw my ascent of superstardom. I'm
just curious. He said he'd be interested in signing an extension, but like
when you dig into the numbers, I would be if he accepts it.
He's got to be the only player in NBA history whose first three contracts like
are some of the biggest bargains in the in the league because and it's not
even you can call peke Lebron a bargain. You would pay him whatever.
Same with Steph But like Brunton being on second round draft pick money to a
deal that some people thought was market value ends up being one of the best
deals in the league, to then signing an extension when you just finished fifth
in MVP voting that would still have you on one of the best deals in
the league by the time it's over. I can't I can't bring myself to
think that that actually occurs. Yeah, laid out that way for for one
fifty six and a half is just like you can't sign that if you're in
unless unless, like you you are sure that your hand is never gonna be
your shooting hand is never gonna be the same, or something ridiculous like that's
just not that is not close to market value. Well, unless can they
do something I know it's being investigated by the WNBA, but like Las Vegas
sponsoring the Aces and like giving them e hundred with that, which by the
way, I'll I don't have problem with that. I love it. Yeah,
but like, can can New York do something like that? Like we're
to sponsor Jahn brunts it for fifty million dollars. That would be the only
way that the Knicks would wreck this whole thing is to have some under the
table Timberwolves deal that costs you six draft picks and a huge fine or whatever.
But what's interesting about the brunts and number because you mentioned the second star
search, it does increase the urgency when you look at Hart and Stein get
new more expensive OG signing what's probably gonna be a four year max if we
both just had to predict how this ends. And then okay, Jallen Brunson's
extension eligible. He will be on new money not next season, but the
season after, basically, regardless of what he does like and Josh Hart his
extension kicks in. He's gonna be a little bit more expensive next year.
And you have these draft picks, and now you have right now you have
what you would consider And actually I want to throw it to you because you
said something to me in a text message over the weekend that like, stuck
with me, what is the Knixes like what needs to be their objective this
summer? Well, I just I tie it to like trying to envision they
need to be better, right, And maybe some of that's being healthier.
How do you get better? And you can't divorce that question from like the
star they're going to hunt and the Randall piece of it. So it's like,
let's start with if they just come back with this roster and they don't
go get somebody, which seems unlikely, what's their best five? Like who
are you starting? Who you're closing games with? I would probably Devincenzo,
Hart, hartenstein Og and Brunson, Right, Yeah, I think that's the
correct answer. And so if that's the right answer, Handle cannot be on
this team because he makes too much and he's he is just like your sixth
man essentially that you it's not clear to me that he is a value add
like as a second unit player, if he'd even want to do that,
Like that's just not realistic. So he's got to move then. I guess
that's kind of separate from because you're not like necessarily trading. I wouldn't think
you're trading him for your second best player. I just don't know that makes
it harder. I guess the salary match matters. But like if it's Cleveland
and it's Donovan Mitchell, which that's a whole other discussion. I am less
convinced now that Donovan Mitchell is the right second star for this team than I've
ever been. I don't think he's not. Yeah, so you're I just
I don't under Jalen Brunson's acent coupled with it that you never should have had
the two smaller guards, Like, that's just not the functioning model he's he's
If it's an issue that he overlaps with Darius Garland, it's damn sure an
issue that he overlaps with Jalen Brunson. Like, that's just they're really different
counterparts, but same idea. So what's Randal getting you? And does that
mean then that your acquisition of another player doesn't include Randall? So it's some
other salaries and all the picks and stuff. I don't know how you get
there. It's just like a complicated thing. So well, I think you
need to upgrade the Randall spot. I think you need to get a star,
and I think you need to figure out then which of the five players
you mentioned and I agree with as a closing lineup, who's coming out now?
Is that Devincenzo goes back to a six man role. I guess it
depends on you they end up adding. I actually think you probably togg with
because of what og can do. Depending on the matchups, you could yank
Hart or Hartenstein or even Devincenzo. From where it's Brunton and og are your
closing locks. And then if you're going to get a star, you're assuming
if you're getting a star who's not going to close for you, then maybe
don't get that star so that that would be your third lock. But what
I was so you would said it preserve. That's why this some are so
important. You said, the Knicks need to preserve the spirit, improve the
talent. That gets a lot harder to do if you have to start including
Josh Heart Devincenzo in these trades to bring back a star. As of right
now, you do not, because you can guarantee the boy on Magdonovic salary
and you have Julius Randall and those two together you're talking about over forty million
dollars in agreeable salary, and the Knicks they don't have to concern themselves with
the second apron stuff, even with paying Hartenstein and og An Andobi yet,
so you can aggregate those salaries and that's gonna get you to a point if
you guarantee Bodanovic you're talking about and you know, I said over forty million,
because it's like forty seven forty eight, and so then you tack that
on top of oh, you could take back one hundred and twenty five percent
plus two hundred and fifty k. That gets you anybody. So like,
there's your package, and you have the draft equity, and then back it
up. Even if the team does not view that you're trading with Julius Randall
and or boy On Bardonovich is a value add you still have the supplementary assets
to back up that offer. I don't know who the player is, and
it's you can talk about players that might become available, but also don't seem
like they're gonna become available. I don't think Towns was the right answer anyway
personally, and now to Minnesota would be fucking stupid to even entertain breaking this
up. Donovan Mitchell's not the answer. It would he becomes available. Darius
Garland won't be the answer either. If he becomes available. People like to
mention Devin Booker. Zach Low had kind of reported that he's heard there's no
Devin Booker, trade demand coming, and he's like the guy in that city.
And if he requested a trade, like it's all over for the Suns
and there he has so many years left on his contract they could try and
cut it out. I don't know who the name is, my personal preference
is, but it's so predicated on him wanting to be here. The Clippers
cooperating is the Paul George opted in trade because of just you have the money
to match it. And then you might I know, people, well,
he's thirty four, Look what he just did in the playoffs. You don't
need to give up a ton to get him. You're almost kind of you're
kind of kicking the can a little bit, because if George wants to be
on the Knicks or leave the Clippers, the threat of him leaving for nothing
where there are teams with caps face who could just sign him and would sign
him out right, that forces them to say, yeah, we should probably
roll him over into two salary slots and a pick. And so now you've
gotten a player who better fit, Like he's just a better fit than Julius
Randall. I've seen a lot of people say Julius Randall's better than Paul George
one factually inaccurate, and two even if he is, Julius Randall's the cleaner,
Paul George is the cleaner fit here, and so you're getting him at
a reasonable asset cost. I know his next contract. If he ops in
and you trade for him and then you have to extend him, it's a
lot of money for someone who's aging. You have the personnel in theory to
lighten his role on both on defense for sure, offense. He kind of
settles into being your number two, which is he was kind of like the
number two number three in Los Angeles this year. But you've now preserved assets
to where if you need to make a subsequent move, you still have that
ability to do so. It will then cost you some of as you phrase
at your spirit. But that's why this summer is so important. It's I
don't know that there will be another offseason unless Julius Randall opts in which I
wouldn't expect him to after next year, to where you can preserve the spirit
and then also get better. And the other name I throw out, I
just don't they have the money to get him. I just everything we hear
is that Brooklyn is more likely to make a trade to pair someone with.
But like McHale Bridges, I also think it's fair to question, like,
can you win with him as your second best player in Brunton as your there's
that might be another Oh the some of their parts is just so great that
yeah, it's enough. But I even think after watching these playoffs that you
want, like Paul George is a better at least for the next couple,
I would say another year or two, like he's gonna give you a higher
end level of shot creation. Then I'm McHale Bridges, but maybe I'm just
so I don't want to say poisoned, but impacted by what we see from
Bridges in Brooklyn, where he was so defenses were so geared towards stopping him.
Yeah, the the George versus Bridges thing is is fascinating because I think
I think it's the case that today Paul George is a better player that gives
you more of what you need. But like we're at a point where it's
like that might not be true like tomorrow, Like it's that close, yeah,
between him and Bridges, And if you're I guess it's how I'm like,
are the Knicks viewing this as like Bridges is that piece we want him.
Given his age, We're going to get these you know, next prime
years out of them. Paul George, We're like trying to hold on for
next year, maybe the year after. I mean, either either one of
them improves them substantially. It's just kind of a question of like, I
don't know how long do you want this window to be? Which is I
think Paul George, your ceiling is higher with Michael Bridges, your window is
longer, or just different house parts. Yea, the doors open, the
floor, we've covered, We've covered all four dimensions of the house. Trying
to think if I had anything. Oh uh, now I think I'm ready
to go to Okay, see I thought I had more and more Randall stuff,
but we hit that already. Yeah, Okase, he's interesting. Where
did you lay? I mean, okay, I know you have a rant.
So this is the third team where it's like I'm not panicking and it's
just because it's the youth. It's some of this was should have been expected,
like the disappointing elements of it. Jaylen Williams didn't have a series that
you know he's going to be happy about Jeff Yeah, tough personally, chet
Holmgren had you know, wasn't consistent enough. Needs to prove that he's a
higher volume, quicker trigger three point shooter to really maximize the value of his
ability to space as a five. The rebounding was a problem, the rim
protection was a problem, like all that stuff. But it's like, what
did you want from this team? Like this is their first like deep run,
they learned a lot. They know what the issues are, I would
say, and maybe this will give you like a springboard. You did know
roughly what the issues were at the trade deadline and coming into these playoffs.
So if you want to be critical about them not going out and getting somebody,
I guess you can lean on that. To me, I don't feel
like they blew some opportunity. Is like a credible take because they didn't go
trade a bunch of picks for somebody this summer. I think they do need
to add like a real upgrade on Giddy that that's just the spot in the
line in the rotation that has to be better, like in a major way.
And then if not him, even the next guy you look AT's probably
Dort, Like can we get somebody that's a bigger offensive threat that can do
stuff with the ball. There is it worth sacrificing, you know, minimizing
or removing his defense from the team. I don't know, but the thunder
exceeded expectations. They all they too, like Denver will absolutely be back.
I'm more confident that they will be better than I'm confident that Denver will get
better. So it's just what do they will get into the offseason. But
for them, it's like, you need to add a huge piece this summer
because you're close to good enough and now is the time. But I don't
feel like you can in a serious way really knock them for like literally anything
that happened in losing the Dallas Apparently you can because I saw, and it
was mostly before their loss, that they should have been more aggressive at the
trade deadline. I have so many thoughts there. And I had tweeted after
I took an edible, I don't know that they kicked My response is the
edible had kicked in, but I was like, I didn't. It was
rolling off me. People were mad to ast too, But Kara, I
told you before, I was like, that might be the key. I
just need to be high all the time. Uh. I think they made
the right call not being more aggressive at the deadline, because now you have
all this information to instruct your future. Everyone's response was what we knew they
needed to get bigger. And so that's not the only thing that went wrong
in this series. You already talked about. It is. Yes, they
were out rebounded, they lost the second chance points. I think it was
ninety eight to sixty seven or ninety seven to sixty eight, whatever. That's
a big difference. You know what else also happened? Grant, PJ.
Washington and Derek Jones Junior hit thirty three threes to Jay Dubbs and Chet Holmgren's
fourteen. If they were gonna more that, there's no fucking big man Shortian
Nikoliochis that would have come or Joel Ebid come in and shift the fortunes of
those series. If those guys aren't like not even just how poorly j dubb
kind of fair on offense and did it for Jet Holmgren, but also like
what was happening with PJ. Watt and Derek Jones Junior just hitting so many
threes. I think too, like in a little bit the same way of
how we're evaluating Denver in the wake of losing to Minnesota, like Dallas is
just that defense is really fucking good. It's just that there's no more.
There's no more like will it hold up or like how real? No?
No, like they just the defense is great and it's it's it's just enough,
like buy in from Luca and Kyrie is playing the best defense I think
I've ever seen him play. And Washington and Gafford and Jones are just like
the athleticism and the physicality is so sustainable, Like that's such a real thing.
I'd be stunned if they didn't, Like, what is this Conference Finals
going to be? Like, By the way, with these two defenses,
we have a lot of games I feel like in the eighties and nineties.
Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of here for it. They've I don't
mind the low scorers if they're played that hard. I think we need to
talk about So you said that the thunder did they needed information, They got
information, like some of it was confirmed, some of it's a little new.
So like where are you looking now? Thirty three million in cap space
potentially unless you start trimming with like trade all the picks. Here was also
my issue though to wrap up on, because the response I got was like,
well, they could have been the team that traded for Daniel Gafford.
Jander Gaffer was a minus fifty eight in this series. I know he played
for the MAVs, not the Thunder, but so much of what the Thunder
do? They want to play five out, and if you put Daniel Gafford
or another traditional big on the floor, you aren't going to change the spacing
in a way that makes it more difficult for Shaye, Gilgess, Alexander and
JDub to create on drives, which by the way, it was already super
difficult to create because the Dallas Mavericks were both physical, flying around and packing
the paint anyway, and so that in guarding Giddy with the center, so
like you say five out, it's five out, but only four of those
guys get guarded, and really it's more like three because three because lou Dort,
they're not guarding him like the way they would other shooters. And so
they've decided they want to play five out. You need to find someone who
fits that motif, and so what you needed to do if you want it,
and we both would have been on board if they made a big move,
but you needed to find someone who is one a substantial upgrade over big
Jalalen Williams, two been able to play beside chet, and three been the
difference in this series specifically? Who did they pass on that would have been
the difference in this series specifically? And do you know they're two? This
is twofold here and this will tie into what happens this offseason. PJ Washington
was someone that we had talked about them getting. He might have made a
huge difference. I don't really know how much he would have helped their rebounding
purposes. Ever, so many people, including us, perhaps mistakenly so I
still think there's a lot to play out for this. If the cost was
a top two protected first round pick, I would not have told the Thunder
to go get PJ Washington. And so unless you sat there and said they
should have beat that offer in the moment, I don't want to fucking hear
it. I don't want to hear it. And to that end, the
players that we've you said substantial upgrade, you know when most of those substantial
upgrades become available, it's not in the middle of the season. It's over
the off season that's when these bigger names if you let's use I don't think
they could get him. I think he will stay in Utah. But if
you wanted Larry Markinen, would it have been easier to get him from the
Jazz at this year's trade deadline or over the off season? Don't even answer
it because it's not a real question. It's over the off season that's when
that stuff tends to develop. And you mentioned their cap space and the other
thing that they could do. I know everyone's gonna be focused on maybe they
still need to get bigger, but like you talked about this with Guinea,
but it's also dor Like if you're subbing out Gideon, it's going to be
an actual shooter. Honestly, how much bigger do they need to get?
Like, yeah, you're always gonna give up the deficit on the glass,
but if you playoff proof, you're spacing against defense, not even just the
shot making, because look Ja Dubbin Chet Holger and spoiler alert, they'll play
better. It'll happen if you're gonna preserve your spacing or put players on the
floor. We saw it a little bit with Isaiah Joe. But he's even
a guy where defenses are okay with just it's Isaiah Joe. It's not so
you're getting someone maybe it's a wing, but that's why it's if it was
og Nnobi as an example, you're not getting too much bigger like you.
Yeah, you're getting someone who could defend all five positions. I know that's
an exception, but you could get McHale Bridges and that will solve a lot
of your issue, not your rebounding one. But like, no team is
going to be perfect, and you, I honestly believe you're going to have
to make concessions if you want to play five out to optimize Shay and j
Dubb Like, there's just gonna be concessions made. And yes, could you
get another big body through in those backup minutes? Sure? Who could make
reads in the center of the floor, be more of a roller than Chet
Holmgren. Sure they would not have helped you win this. They they would
have helped you, but they wouldn't have been the difference in this. Like
again a star sure, like but like Anthony Davis, Yeah, he might
have helped you win this series. Like Okay, like Icy take I don't
know who the name is for. I don't know if you've thought about names
for them, but I've I think they have so many options, not just
because of the apps assets and the cap space they have, but because that
what they need. It's been boiled down to they just need to get bigger
and more physical, and that's not true. Like, yes, it could
be an option, but like you have different avenues to explore, and I
think the bigger one. I think maybe a majority of Thunder fans maybe they're
not a get after the series, but they kind of there feels like a
weird We talked about the tib cycle earlier in the podcast. There's like this
weird on the court cycle with Josh Giddy where it's oh, he hits it,
like, oh no, he can't be on this team. So it's
oh, he's hitting enough of his threes and it's oh yeah, like you
just sign them and like figure out like to now it's oh no, no,
no, we see that's and by the way, that's the information you
needed that you couldn't have been sure of. Would the Josh Giddy fit Indoor
into the playoffs the way that it did during the regular season. The answer
is now know they know it for sure, build out your rotation, your
team from there. I know it's weird because he's extension eligible and we don't
really see guys on the rookie scales get moved like that normally. But like
you could throw I'm saying, I don't really have specific names, I think
because it could be so many different types of players, Like if they wanted
to get if they I mentioned addnob, they should absolutely just be hey,
we'll give you the max if you want to come here, just to put
pressure on the Knicks. If they wanted if Michael Bridges becomes available, uh,
if like they could get it doesn't doesn't do you think it needs to
be a star though? Are we talking about someone who's more like if they
got a top fifty player or something. Maybe that's even too ambitious. No,
sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you. So the guy and
this isn't like this name, he's his name, you said his name and
his name has been like this is the one for for I don't know.
Basically all year I think to me, it's marketing. Uh and and I
don't know, like well, I what I do know is that the thunder
have enough draft assets to put an offer on the table that Utah just can't
say no to. Like that that is, I don't know what it needs
to be, if you could make a gross overpay or what would seem like
it. But maybe that has been the point all along, is like we're
positioned now to just force the Jazz to trade us a guy that they want
to keep, and but they just like they can't look at this package of
assets and whatever salary you need to throw in there. Uh, they just
can't say no. The reason so the homegrown piece of it complicates things like
kind of in a good way, because I'm not I'm okay with going forward
with holmgrenn as your quote unquote loan big or as like as you're five a
the way he was a rookie this year and could it just be that playing
so many games caught up to him after not one never playing that many,
but also you're you had a year in which you just weren't playing and and
like he's an all defense caliber guy already, like you can you can the
rebounding sure, Like I don't know how you're gonna crack that, but I
think you're right in that you are just gonna have to make some concessions to
play the way you want to play to optimize the talent you have in that
might be one of them. The rebounding may just never improve, you could
they need. It's not like again, it's not like they need to get
like a better. They can get a little better at that stuff and then
maybe that's all it takes and you're in the conference finals and that's all you
can ask. So the reason I like marken In is he I mean he's
the anti Giddy in that like he's gonna be moving around off the ball.
He's a catch and shoot threat. He has the size though to you know,
he's not going to protect the rim, but like he'll get a few
more rebounds than you know, your standard running off screens three point shooting threat,
And like I just think defensively, you have enough elsewhere that if you're
concerned about Marketing's defense, like you could just hide him someplace. But it's
like it's nice to hide a guy that's seven foot that, you know,
as opposed to what do we do with Josh Giddy? What do we do
with Isaiah Joe? So just like getting the shooting and the size and the
upgrades. I do think like the Dort piece is really that's not your first
like option of like where are we upgrading? It's obviously the giddy spot,
But like if Cason Wallace can who already defensively is like he's not Dort,
but like he's real close for rookie, Like it's shocking how close he could
potentially get to Dort's defensive level, like as soon as next year. And
if he's gonna shoot more threes, then like suddenly Dort is just like,
well, now we're paying him too much for what we need him to do.
Uh So, I think Wallace developing could make some Dort decisions happen sooner
than later. Not that you have to do anything there, but I again,
like I think marken In is just the right piece for this team.
I think I would agree with you on marketing. Well, by the way,
there was some trolling done and I'm here for jokes, but oh,
the Thunder helped the Mavericks get gaffered, and again, Gaffer is not the
reason of Thunder loss series. They also helped him get Derek Lively. Yeah,
direct, I'm high enough. I did criticize that move from them in
the moment, but I'm high up, I'm case and wallis now where it's
okay, the thunder go on to win the title and Derek Wiley's like the
finals MVP. Okay, like we'd have the conversation there, but he wouldn't
have the same opportunity when you had Chet Holmgren. Ye see that he got
in Dallas. So it's not even pushback. I think why. I think
I believe that there's maybe a little bit more specificity to the search they need
to go on. You have Shay on this big deal, J dub and
Chet holmerun are gonna be on max Is if you want to this team to
realistically keep this core together, I don't think you can go get someone who's
either already on a mega deal or going to get a mega deal very soon,
unless it's the as Brian Windhurst calls it, the fun Max Thatwry Marketing
is going to get the not so fun Max. I mean, like good
for Lyar Marketing that he should. You might even get it from the Jazz
and a renegotiating extent. And that's why if you really wanted to criticize them,
not going to get PJ. Washington in the moment I thought the Maverick's
overpaid, and so I'm not using that, But that would be the guy
where it's okay, here's another two years, very reasonable number. That's why
Denny Ave is actually a guy that I keep coming back to to where like,
but maybe the shooting's not there enough. He could probably help you with
the rebounding and just the secondary playmaking. When things do bog down, you
almost need to find someone that has a few year left on their deal at
if it's not sub max money, then it's like near max money, or
someone who's only on that first max with time left, because you do have
to game this around your future. And the one thing I don't want to
hear though, is like, well, if you don't make these moves like
Shay's gonna agitate to get out. Here's my two thoughts on that the thunder
have made you act like they've wasted not you, not, not mister not
the fantabulous Grant Hues, anyone acting like they've somehow squandered Shay Gildess Alexander's prime.
It's just like they created it. They created its prime, by the
way, and they keep getting better, Like, yeah, there were the
two seasons where he shut down whatever. He always seemed on board at his
exit interviews. And now you're coming off of season where would you'd like to
beat the mav Sure, you finished with the one seed in the West and
came within two wins of making it. To like, if next season they
don't make the playoffs, and then he's gonna be unhappy because they didn't make
a move. But to have that discussion now and then that leads into this
whole. Yes, the other pushback I got was a windows are so short,
like you need to pre do you know why windows are short because teams
shortened them. Yeah, you make dumb moves before you should, right,
And yeah, there's sometimes stars want to get out. But right now,
if you're pointing to Shade Giljes Alexander agitating out, you're just you're living.
And that would be one of the most shocking trade requests like ever if that
happened anytime soon. And so like that goes back to the Nuggets. They
won a title because they gut it out and they didn't overreact, So I
think it's important to not Yes, we even said that we would have been
on board if they made an aggressive move. The fact that they didn't is
not a cardinal sin. And hey, by the way, everyone, you
can go ahead and denigrate it now. It was pretty universally complimented when they
went out and got Gordon Hayward. He seemed disappointed in his role and maybe
they didn't give enough of an opportunity. But every time I watched him in
the Thunder, you got him so that he might put pressure on defenses.
Basically he just wasn't even looking at the basket most of the time. So
yeah, it's there's expectations, which I think this this reaction is good,
the over the top ones in the sense that it's great to thunder have these
expectations. It's fucking cool, But like, let's not veer too far away
from reality. I don't know who the specific player it is, and I
do think they're coming into some challenges. But if you're willing to pay through
the teeth, or if you want to play the figure it out later card
and go out and get lowry market and assume he's available, I'm all for
it. But the reality of the situation is you're not gonna have marketing.
Shay J. Dub and Ched Holmgren all on maxes at once in Okay,
see, and that's why they might need to be more particular in terms of
who they're seeking at here. Yeah, I think, like kind of ironically,
the fact that they have this cap space and all these assets like makes
the offseason like, I mean, it's good problem, but harder because like
if this team were didn't have the flexibility and it's like, well, this
roster will just be back next year, you'd be like, awesome, they're
gonna all get better. Like this is that there's no problems here. I
get, you know, maybe Giddy can develop enough as a three point shooter,
like, yeah, that's a problem, but the fact that they have
the means to go make real changes just I mean, I guess ultimately it's
a testament to like how intelligently this team was put together to where it can
be this good and you now the pressure is like how much better can you
make it? Like immediately, and they have the ability to do harder jump
to make yeah better than elite, Right, Yeah, they're already the one
seed, Like they already proved they were better than everyone in the conference over
the course of the year, and they were as close as you can get
just about to make. I don't know, it's just so again, they're
the third category of like nothing to be ashamed of, no reason to panic.
Of the teams that you can tell me, and I think we'd be
in agreement that their cap space is going to be more useful on the trademarket
than in free agency. Yeah. Probably. And also by the way,
they still have the roster crunch to like they're gonna have to. That's what
the crades also makes sense because you have to get rid of players still you're
in that timeline. But like if I told you they went and they added
Denny Avya or Kyle Kuzma or John Collins, I know a lot of people
were on the John Collins train too, you probably feel a lot better about
how this team is looking next to you. You haven't solved everything, but
you've gotten bigger. When you pull out Josh Giddy and I think the floor
spacing the Denny obvious stuff is just he just that the volume is so low.
But like in terms of John Collins and Kyle kuzm are just throwout nonstar
x like you would feel better about this team having gotten better and that might
actually make all the difference to them because they have the bones yeah, of
this team that can contend. And I just can't understand being mad that they
didn't go all in on a move that didn't exist. There was someone there
was actually a couple that said, well, like, this is a really
hard question to answer. When I posed that, I was like, no,
fuck, that's a hard question to answer me, Like, that's what
needs to go and we're I'm guilty of it too when we're grading the trade
deadlines, like, well, why didn't tam X do this right? It
wasn't out there, and yes, the thunder can create their own trade market,
but then would you have like been on board with them giving up two
first round picks for Pig? I just I can't well, and like,
just to illustrate how unlikely. So Dallas made the most post the biggest trade
that impacted the post the trades, I guess if you want to split Gaffer
in Washington up in terms of postseason impact, like by far the biggest in
season trades of any team still still playing, right unless I'm yeah, like
was like just a bit. I mean, James aren't to the Cluippers,
but like, and then at the deadline there's a seems all going. We
hated it. We hated it. We thought that's too much, that wasn't
worth your few limited draft assets, like neither Washington or Gaffer it gives you
enough that's different or better or anything. And that's just an illustration of like,
so if the Thunder had done that, we probably would have been like
it would have been different because they have just this trove of draft just shit
on fires, like yeah, so we would have been less probably probably less
down on it had it in the Thunder. But that's just all to say.
Like even the trade that now looks like, oh my god, can
you believe they were able to do it at the time, was like that
was done by Dallas. It seemed dumb. It seemed like the wrong move
because I think I'm sure, I said, even if this works out great,
just the what Dallas has now is not good enough to begin with for
like someone like the best versions of Washington and Gafford to put him over the
top, and like that was wrong on well every count, I guess.
So we were both just thrown me in there. We were both right.
But that's just to say, like anyone clan like maybe this just tie all
the way back to what you were saying, like anyone clamoring for the thunder
to have pulled off, Like whether it's that trade for those players specifically or
something else. It's just like, I just don't think there was a no
brainer or anything close to it out there, And I think and it's I
think the discussion is fair. So everyone, I've referenced that there was no
one specifically because all the responses were in the same vein. Although there was
one specific response, Remember who was saying, well, maybe the players they
gave away for Gordon Hayward could have help. And I was like Davas Breton's
and Trey Man, like, what are we doing here? Like no,
so, but it's a discussion to have. But this idea that they needed
to do it or they fucked up royally by not doing it, That's where
I really was. That's why I was honestly surprised at the response I got.
And so they just have a bunch of draft picks, thirty five plust
million cap space, and the best team in the Western Conference during the regular
season, Like that's a pretty good starting point to be there. You mentioned
the MAVs though, you want to talk to MAVs Wolves. What's the biggest
thing you're looking for for this series? If there any takeaways you have for
the previous one with Minnesota or whatever, But what's just the biggest thing you're
watching with this series? Yeah, I guess I haven't given it a ton
of thought. I think so Minnesota had a lot of success keeping Gobert out
of like primary actions defensively, and I'm trying to imagine how easy that will
be for them to do against Dallas, because obviously what Dallas would love is
to involve Gobert in like every high screen for Luca and just kind of see
how he can pick that apart. So does that mean? So I guess
that's the matchup I'm watching is like where is Gobert gonna be? And then
will it be possible on off for Dallas to find him to make or at
least make Minnesota have to mess around with some stuff kind of like Denver did,
Like oh, eron Gordon's gonna handle now, so go Beart is gonna
be involved for a couple of games there, and then I guess that just
wasn't as big of a part going forward in the rest of that series,
So that that particular matchup, that particular interplay, because I do think,
like, I mean, odds are Dallas is gonna be able to defend I
think reasonably well against Minnesota's offense, which, by the way, like wasn't
very good for most of that series against Denver. So I think I think
the other side, what is Denver? I mean, it's what does Minnesota
do with Luca, specifically with with Gobert. Yeah, so mind semi related
to that, but it's also what you mentioned too, is if if Derek
Jones Junior and PJ. Washington, because those are the two guys that I
think you could say, all right, like hide go bear on them and
then maybe the maps decide to have use one of them as the screener.
But then you can just stick go bear on the other one and like peel
off or whatever. If they're just shooting threes like the way that they were,
then it's okay. Well, then like what the fuck do we do?
Yeah, because it's not even we don't even need to involve them in
the primary action, Like playing Gobar off of them is going to be problematic,
right, So Karl Anthony Towns, which first of all, they are
like ninety different Karl Anthony Towns agendas and depending on the day, like one
of them is pending out what it's I just it's really cool. I know,
we don't necessarily go into this sentiment all the time. It's just really
fucking cool to see him here just kind of like the loan holdover in Minnesota,
through all this shit and turmoil and just what's been looking at not only
the stuff he's gone through, the death or a parent during COVID and all
that and having but just like people questioning whether or not even questioning, but
they've just just even I can even loop us into this maybe a little bit,
like they just decided that he's eventually going to be traded because of his
contract after the go Bear trade and it was and sorry and because well,
I mean, he's so imperfect, like he's not worth this money. They
don't need him like that, that kind of thing. It's not just the
money. It's like he's got all these issues that to this point and have
like not been real helpful in the postseason and so and so that redemptive angle
is big too. And I will say this might be this is a little
hypocritical because I could say the same thing about Julius random, like his post
he's in sample before this year is like eleven games. It's just like,
hey, maybe if he's on a better team that plays longer, he'll have
more trademark moments like he did in Game seven, and he was really good
defensively at points throughout that series. I'm wondering if it gets harder to do
that against Dallas because their offense is never gonna be running. Like part of
what I think the appeal of him going up against Jokic's is that he's not
facing up and like trying to drive by you all the time. He's either
going to operate out of the post or from stan Still's elbows all that stuff,
and that should be easier to guard than if one you stick him on
Dallas is big all of a sudden, he's just in space a lot more
against if you're switching, you're gonna have him like having to make decisions in
space, or if there's a guy like Derek Lively who is like maybe able
to get past him on those roles of the basket. I'm wondering if does
this become a series where where we see more of like the Nikhil Alexander Walker
plus the starters variation. Because of that, I know Dallas is still super
huge, but they're still only right now unless Maxie Cleeb was gonna come back,
kind of playing with one big and so what does is there any sort
of matchup, you know, puzzling out that they need to do there?
You also do though, because you mentioned their offense, I think it becomes
a lot more important on the offensive end in this series. Just you're gonna
need someone who's you know that Dallas has these two dynamo scores in Kyrie Ring
and Luga Dancic, And yes they both haven't really been scoring a ton of
Dncic is dealing with that that knee injury, but like you're gonna need,
there's gonna just be a night where those two go off for the Mavericks have
another worldly offensive performance. Can you kind of float? It's just easier to
count on someone who's a good three point shooter rather than can Jane McDaniels continue
to go off on it, like which one are you gonna lean on more?
When they need a night where it has to be I don't want to
call it a shootout, but we need to have a more dynamic offense because
I think what's interesting about this series is Dallas to me, has the higher
offensive ceiling and then Minnesota has the lower offensive floor. But if these two
teams are hitting their floors, like if that's where they're at on offense,
Minnesota is better equipped to win while hitting their offensive floor more so than Dallas
is. Even though we kind of did see they still needed like Luca in
that Game six to be like have a really good performance and so as good
as their defense is, I still think they are more reliant on their offense
sniffing its peak or just a higher peak relative to this series than Minnesota will
be. Do you think we'll see some of the same tactics with respect to
Anthony Edwards that Denver use, which is like super aggressive, consistent, get
it out of his hands, doubles and just the second defenders there right away.
Do you think that that Dallas will view the rest of Minnesota's offense with
as much disdain as Denver did, is like, let let's let's see you
beat us type of thing. Do you do you think that they have,
because I think what's interesting about the team that Denver is built is what they're
able to do when they scrambled defensively for the most part, do you think
that Dallas as good as they've been defensively? But like, are PG Washington
and Derek Jones Junior? And then you're gonna have to rely on like where
where are you? Who is so Derek Jones Junior is on Anthony Edwards is
the primary guy, which I think would be I'm sure they'll be split between
him and PJ. Blake. Where are you sending the help from? And
then are you trusting your defense to kind of? I mean, look Dallas's
close outs by the way. On That's the other thing. I know the
thunder didn't shoot well from three, but like I want like more specific tracking
data than we have available because I'm just convinced that like maybe five percent of
Oklahoma City's three pointers should be count as wide open because they were kind of
scrambling around. I just wonder are they because you have Gordon and KCP,
even Murray when he's at his peak, and of course like if not my
like Christian Brown, like having that lever to pull, like is Dallas built
to do that as often? Because there they felt more And it's not really
an insult, it's just the way they're built. Like they felt more like
if we're gonna pack the paint, like they're better built to do that than
like we're gonna scramble around the perimeter. Yeah, I think Dallas did such
a good job of We talked about this after whichever I can't remember which game
in the series, but like it seemed like the only open threes that okay
See was getting were like quote unquote open threes were like Dort would get one
like a pump fake fly by reload three. So I feels like he took
a million of those and then giddy was being left. I wonder if they
can do that against Minnesota, especially like if you may have some lineups where
there's definitely gonna be one spacing big and there might be two. If you
ever have any any read cap minutes, like how easy is it going to
be to dictate which shooters are getting those shots from three if you are putting
two on the ball and like kind of inviting a three with enough swing passes
as you're trying to rotate and just can't keep up with the ball. I
don't know. It's on one hand, it seems to me like, well,
I mean the Thunders offense is better than Minnesota's, and Dallas was good
enough against that offense. So why can't Dallas totally shut down Minnesota? Like
isn't that? I mean, you know, if things go sideways for Minnesota,
it's always because they can't score. And Dallas did an awesome job against
a good offense. It's packing the paint, just forcing the kind of shots
they wanted to concede from the shooters they wanted to shoot them, Like,
I don't know stands the reason they should be able to do that against Minnesota.
I don't know if that's how it'll play out, because maybe Edwards with
just more reps against the same type of coverage will just improve with you know,
but that's kind of that's I guess. The first thing I'm thinking of
now, beyond the go bet stuff, is like, what's Dallas gonna do?
And maybe the answer is Luca that offensively that is gonna, you know,
yield a bunch more success. I'm sorry that Minnesota is gonna do offensively
that'll yield more success against Dallas. That defense to just like, I don't
know, I keep saying it's legit. The defense is a real series prediction.
I think I have to go Minnesota in seven. That's my I think
that's my pick too. If it's a short series, could you see it
being a short series where Dallas wins it, Like, I don't see a
short series of Minnesota win. But I could imagine that Lusoda is just so
brutalized from that Denver series that and like some letdown, and and Luca just
being like what if Luca's fully healthy? Like that's the other thing is he
was banged up throughout that time comes back there. I think that Tim Cato
the Athletics said that's a chance. I mean, he had just had a
shoulder injury, so that would be. Yeah, those are tricky to come
back from right away. But if it was honestly, if it was a
shorter series, I would think that Minnesota won it. Yeah. I just
like what they did defense. Obviously you did them rhetorically, like what they
did in the second half. I'm trying to think of a better half of
defense I saw played by a team and even just man, that series was
so fucking what the Denver defense in the first half that was totally unrelated to
this series. But I I think Minnesota is the better team, but like
there's this is going to force I think this playoff push if he has a
really good conference finals, especially if they win, it'll it'll feel like one
of those not that he should have won it over Nicole Jokich or Shake Gilli
Tugsander this year, but like if they go to the finals, Luka doncons
can almost be pentled in for MVP next year because it's just like that's a
validation of everyone was worried if he was too heliocentric or ran out of time
to catch up to Jokic, and it kind of felt like we got that
way with like got to a point with yokicch like that even though he won
his MVP before they they reached the finals. So if you told me it
was a short series, I think I would just lean Minnesota because their defense
is as good as Dallas as defense is. I almost think Minnesota wants to
win ugly. And there's still I mentioned this already, there's still that level
of dependence from the MAVs perspective of like we need to have these offensive detonations
to edge you out. And also just like this wouldn't have been true if
we said in the regular season. I think you could eat more easily envisioned
leading into the series based off what we had seen, saying, yeah,
I could see Dallas outperforming OKAC on defense. Idea of Dallas outperforming Minnesota on
defense tough, very tough, very tough. Yeah, I just the high
the levels that Minnesota hit against Denver were so high, like and they they
weren't there all the time, but they're high highs where just this team looks
unbeatable. Basically it's you know, they didn't sustain it, but it was
enough to beat the defending champs. Like yeah, I just I don't know,
man, the defenses are both like it basically going into this series,
it's almost impossible for me to imagine either offense like being halfway decent just because
the defenses were so good. Do you think that'd be you though, Like
I'm with you. I wonder if I feel differently if Luca had played differently
to this point where it was just like there's clearly something up with his knee
and he's only kind of had like a here and there, like a semi
trademark Luca game. Yeah, you want to talk to the East, I
mean, I feel like this will be short. Uh. And by the
way, I just want to reampasize how wrong we collectively were on the matters.
We're we're not picking them to win this series. That's probably good for
their fans because we picked we picked against him in the first round. Two.
No, we picked them the beat the Clippers. But I can't remember,
but I definitely didn't pick him to beat the Thunder. I know that.
No, I didn't pick them to beat the Thunder either, So Pacers
Celtics, I I didn't see. It was funny how and I get it
to extent how Pacers fans were basking and no one picked them to beat the
Knicks, And I was like, yeah, they probably deserved this victory lap.
But at the end of the day, like you beat like close to
the GV Marshal all those injuries, Yeah, I mean you gotta like look,
by the way, we didn't talk at all about the Pacers basically like
playing one of the best offensive postseason games anybody's ever played Alibert and just you
know, he continues to like finding his shots a big one, but he's
also throughout that series the way he was able to kind of toggle between existences
where we've framed it. At some point it's like, oh, is he
being too passive? And it's like, does he just understand the balance that
he needs to strike because of Sakham and if they want to play a bunch
of TJ. McConnell and it's he was playing chess and we were thinking about
checkers. That seems like what it was. Also, just give me the
guy that you have that is so good as a facilitator and so hardwired to
do that that you need to coax into shooting more than the alternative, Like
the guy you got to rein in and like make him try to make teammates
better, Like having the having the hardwiring of I need to get the best
possible shots for the other four guys is like it's gonna take you. I'm
into that. It's gonna take you a long way. I think, like
I just can't sorry, We're I'm just gonna be very direct about it.
Even if Porzingis doesn't play, If Porzingis is healthy, he's gonna miss games
one and two at least, it seems like if he's healthy, then like
I just I'm it's like a five game series stops. I think. But
like if he's not. I could see the Pacers getting a couple just because
the offensive level they can hit is really really high. But the Celtics just
they're just better that Like, what how do we keep doing this every series?
It's like I don't know, I don't know what are the Pacers gonna
do? Certainly offensively, because that's where you have to start evaluating them,
because that's how they find themselves other than run that is really gonna give Boston
like, oh my god, Like what what do we do about this?
Like because you might say, well, Siakam against Smalls, it's like,
well, he's gonna have Tatum or Brown and help. So it's not quite
the same thing as going against de Vincenzo or Hart or whatever other like undersized
combo guard or wing. There is plenty of guys that throw at Haliburton.
You can you can be really switchy if you want to. You can trap
if you want to, and have guys on Boston's backline fly around offensively.
If you flip it, I guess, like you know, porzingis not being
there as a switch killer might make it so that Boston gets into the worst
habits that it has where it's just pounding the dribble and shooting threes. But
like Indiana has had two like beat up opponents, they beat them, but
Boston is just a different a different thing. Yeah, I would with any
So I'm wondering. I guess their biggest I thought their biggest weapon would be
their ability to attack defenses when they're not set, but then that's still also
the way that they defend in the bodies that they have right now. It's
well them ensuring that they're going to be in transition enough to really take advantage
of Boston means that they need to defend well enough for Boston to misshots,
and they're just not going to And so it comes down to again, is
there going to be that shot making variance from the Celtics to where it makes
it easier for the Pacers to get out and run. And we know that
they'll run no matter what. But Boston had the best transition defensive league during
the regular season and was second in limiting opponent frequency in transition. They are
now first in the postseason of limiting opponent transition frequency. I know that they
have not played the best level of competition here, but like they did play
the version of the calv that is built to move faster and shoot more threes.
I don't want to diminish what the Pacers have done to get here.
And I also think it's cool this is both the Mavericks and the Pacers.
I like seeing teams being rewarded for making me aggressive moves where it's like they
went out and got Siakam. And you could say if the Pacers don't want
to touch their core because they think they're finished product and they're very much going
to read into this like the Hawks did in twenty twenty one or whatever that
was when they reached the conference finals. I get that concern, but them
getting here, all you can do is play the teams in front of you,
and it's just you. Siaka was a big part of them winning that.
So I like kind of seeing these teams. It's the same thing with
dow As. You were rewarded because there was no way we would have picked
either of these teams. We didn't pick either of them to make the conference
finals after they made the trades. No, I don't. This series is
just I can't spend the brain power on it unless we get to a Game
six or something, and so I'll throw it to you this way, what
is more likely in your mind that the Pacers are swept or the Pacers get
to a game six? Ooh, if you're dead seven, I would have
definitely said the sweep was more likely. Why didn't say seven? Six?
That's why you're a master? Six is like, oh, man, I
guess I I can't say sweep, just I can't say sweeps more likely.
I think Boston is Boston just has a shit game in it. It's just
I feel like that's it's a given, and so I'll say it's more likely
that it goes six, and and that really has more to do with Boston
than Indiana, I think, which is like, again, I feel like
we're just being totally dismissive, and I'm sorry about it, but uh I
we've seen Boston in two series that probably should have been sweeps, just you
know, not quite pull it, pull it off, like sweeps are kind
of sweeps are hard, especially at like this level. So I guess it's
six. Do you it's got to you? Do you think it's six?
Right? You don't think it's more likely a Boston sweeps? Dude? Yeah?
I think the way that their offense can bog down sometimes and they just
get to these points they're all of a sudden operating for low percentage, looks
late in the shock clock. I just don't I don't understand it. So
I could see them, So you have that. And then if they're just
there's a night where they're missing threes, like the Pacers have the offense just
blow them out of the building. And then what if Porzingis comes back in
game three doesn't kind of look the same, there's a learning curve for him
to come back? Is that a game at the Pacers they'll be at home
that they're just able to steal. So I definitely think it's six. And
I was actually gonna ask you with christophs Porzingis and it sounds a little stupid
because of his rim protection, but like, are the Pacers? Are the
Celtics better equipped? They're better equipped to defend Indiana with one big than they
are with both of their biggs on the court, right, And so like
christophs Porzingis coming back would add an interesting wrinkle to that where would they more
aggressively stagger him and al which they do already, but like, would they
more aggressively stagger it? Even though there's a Siakam and Turner on the court
a lot of the time for the Pacers. Yeah, I think that's probably
right, because if they're both out there, I guess I think we not.
I guess you'd surely put Al Horford on Siakam because he's gonna move his
feet better and it be more comfortable in screen actions. But then you still
have Porzingis all the way out on Turner, So like that's not that's not
ideal, that's not the best use of him. Probably, So I mean
that's we didn't really talk about that. We don't need to get too deep
in the weeds. But like if it if it is one big across the
board and it's Porzingis on Turner, I mean maybe you try to find someone
you put Porzingis on, like Nie Smith or something, and he gets to
roam and you figure out Jason Tatum is on Turner or something something like that.
Like that's the cross matching with the big specific specifically should be interesting.
I just think like Porzingis is so vaud and like, look, another reason
that the Celtics might lose a game here is because they're like in their heart
of hearts are like we're not really in danger, and we might there might
be some let up at some point. But Porzingis I think is really important
because he just keeps them from their worst instincts sometimes because like you can't ignore
the seven foot three guy that's posting up on a switch against the six to
four guard, Like you have to throw it to him, and that keeps
you from doing the Boston stuff that we don't like. The other thing I
can't get over to is how I won't even say hard it's impossible to kind
of hide Haliburton defensively in this series. Right, that's a great point.
Yeah, what do you do with him? Like Jalen Brown? Jaylen Brown's
gonna eat him alive. I'm gonna put him in the basket. I don't
know what you do with them. That's like I feel so bad saying about
the pace or they deserve to be here. They beat the teams that were
in front of them. I just I couldn't envision them winning the Bucks series.
I couldn't vision them winning the nixt series. I can't even come up
with a semi plausible scenario in which they win this series and that look,
that'll be good and it'll have information of what they need to. I am
part of me though, for all the conspiracy theorist assholes out there, I
want to see like a Minnesota Indiana Finals that they the NBA is always get
a shoehorn. One massive market in there. Yeah, but besides the point,
yeah, one all Midwest final. So prediction, I'll go Boston in
five. I'll go I just want to say Boston in six to be spicy,
but like, it's Boston in five, do you think if it is
Boston in five, do you think it's better knowing the gauntlet the other teams
in the West World had to go through to if it's Dallas or Minnesota.
Is it beneficial to them that they didn't, that they didn't have to play
as many games and so like their bodies are, in theory just more well
rested. Or is it better? Is it worse because they haven't. Yeah,
they've maybe taken some team's best punches, but it's like the best punches
from the heat that have nobody is different from the best punch of a Dallas
or Minnesota squad with everybody, it's hard to imagine. Assuming Boston makes it,
and let's say they win it in five, like they're ever having been
a team that won so much in the regular season and then just cruised so
easily in the playoffs to where they get to the finals, and you're like,
yeah, I'm not sure yet, Like that's like, how can that
be the reaction? I think I think it's probably better just to get there
fresh and have the like questions of like they didn't really face anybody yet like
then, and not be sure than it is to which whoever comes out of
the West is like you're a decorated war hero, like you survive the gauntlet,
just making it this far as an achievement. We know everything we need
to know about you at this point because you've been tested by a bunch of
different types of like credible threats, where Boston we just won't be able to
say that almost no matter what, Like even if it goes seven, probably
if it goes seven against Indiana and Boston wins, we'll have more questions than
if it went five, just because we haven't seen enough to be sure.
Yeah, I think having said all that, I think the rest is just
going to be more valuable, I guess. But it doesn't make you feel
great either way. Very quickly, since they were now when we were recording
this, just wanted to get your quickening thoughts on the All Rookie teams.
First Team Victor wemen Yama, Chet Holmgren, Brandon Miller, Jaime Hawks Junior,
Brandon Pajemski. We grab a big day for you. Second team,
Derek Lively the second, Gigi Jackson the second, Kiante, George Aman Thompson,
and Cason Wallace an he thought a little Jackson. Gigi Jackson is the
surprising name to me. I forget who we maybe one of us had a
Sar as a as. I'm surprised he didn't make That's the one that stands
out to me is just oh he didn't do enough before getting injured to to
kind of make it. I mean I had Caseon Wallace over Pajemski as my
first team. Uh but actually I'm looking now, Yeah, I had a
Sar on my second team, so I also had blow cool BALI shout outs
to him. Uh, if you're watching the playoffs and we're factoring that in
Derek Lively the second absolutely just like that, Yeah, right, we doing
regularly. I am surprised that Asar Thompson didn't make a team, but I
look at it, and it's you know, I don't. I don't know
that I have any issues with Like do you look at someone and say,
probably, if you had to pick the two, it's not Gigi Jackson,
it's not Derek Lively, and it's not Cason Wallace, it's was Keyante George
good enough? Like? How much value you ascribed to him struggling in this
bigger role? Or did Amen Thompson play enough? Relative? And I think
his minutes got up there to where I don't have an issue with him making
it, so I just think I think everyone here is deserving. Keyante George
would probably be the one I would quibble. I would have preferred to see
Blaal or Asar Thompson here over him, But I don't think there's anything egregious.
Is there a third guy? Are you looking at our picks? Is
there a third guy besides cool Bally and Thompson that we've thought about? Are
you setting me up for this? No? I I seriously don't remember.
Oh Tray Jackson Davis. Oh I wish I hadn't been setting up. No,
I'm okay with him not being on there. I mean there's also Tamani
Kamara, but that's like, I don't have a huge issue with that.
Again, no huge issues here. It's if there was goodna be someone I
would say needs to be bounced for someone else, it would probably be Keyante
George and I would have probably have a Star Thompson in that spot. I
think I lean that way too, But again, like pretty solid, Like
at the very least they got nine out of ten guys, right, I'd
say, stat Petting time. Guess a player this time. I don't know
if it's everyone's favorite, but everyone's favorite. Guess a player? Do you
have any for me to probably start with? You go ahead and start while
I pull some up here. Okay, so this will come from I have
a bunch for Mike's. Maybe we'll try and plow through these. Uh,
all right, are you ready? Oh wait, we did this one.
You would you definitely would have been ready, but we did not. You
did not. We did not do this one. Clue number one. I
was an early draft pick in the ABA draft as an attempt to keep me
from going back to college and thus keeping me out of the NBA. Hmm,
I gotta try Aba. I mean Julius Irving, not him, but
I respect it. Clue number two that didn't work, as I ended up
becoming a campus legend at a blue blood school. Oh so this guy was
drafted like before college? Is that? Is that what the question the clue
is saying? Yeah, do you want me to repeat the first one?
No, I got it now before college to try to keep him from going
to the NBA and then goes to a blue blood school and is really good
there. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have it. Clue number
three. I ended up being a high draft pick in nineteen seventy four,
but missed much of the first two seasons with injuries stemming from a jeep accident.
Cheap accident. That was one of the clues where it's like you could
have just got like if you know it, you probably would have gotten it.
But I also don't know that I would expect you to know it.
You wouldn't expect me to know the jeep accident early in a career, that
can I That anecdote is kind of just like, oh, oh, I
know, I know who it is, or it's just you don't know it,
but do you know it? Yeah, I'm looking right at it.
Okay. I did not know the jeep anecdote, though, I feel like
the years are wrong here, but I'll say Bill Walton, that is correct.
Okay, so the other clues, by the way, nice shot by
you. Out of ten clues. You did it on clue number three.
My third season, my fortunes as well as my my fortunes as well as
the team's fortunes changed as we brought in a new coach. We won the
title and I was named Finals MVP Clue five. The next season, I
played in my only All Star Game one MVP, but broke my foot CLU
six. In seventy nine, After not having playoff success, I stated I
would never play for the team again, cigning medical malpractice for my injuries as
well as my teammates. I signed a seven year, seven million dollar contract
with the San Diego Clippers Clue seven. In four years with the Clippers,
they moved to LA and I only played in a combined one hundred and sixty
nine games, or fifty one percent of the total games. CLU eight,
I was traded to the Celtics for Cedric Maxwell and the pick that would become
a player I openly fawned over for years are Vitas Sabonis. Clue nine.
I won another title in Boston and won six Man of the Year as well.
Clu ten. Since retiring, I feuded with Shack, anointed Shack,
feuded with him some more, become a commentator, hated Rashid Wallace very publicly,
seen my kid get drafted into the NBA, and become a meme on
the Hardwoodknock podcast. That's a good one, all right, I have I
think all of mine are from Mike two because I didn't get through all of
them from last week. All right, Dan, Clue number one, I'm
one of four players ever to play in the NBA from my home country.
Oh, I'm one of four players ever to play in the NBA from my
home country, which I get obscure. I know where's Gogo Patase from where
we're gonna have him again? He's from Georgia, I believe, home of
Zaza Pachulia. Yeah, I know. So now there's two players that are
there? Was there four? I got nothing? He go? All right?
Clue number two. After an international career that saw me play senior basketball
in Croatia. Wait a minute, is this the right person. That's the
wrong person. That's a different clue. Disregard that trying to mess you up,
Cluane number two. I was drafted in the lottery in twenty thirteen,
after playing my senior year of high school and one year of college in America.
On Draft night, I became the first player from my college to be
selected in the first round since Vontigo Cummings in nineteen ninety Nine's is Georgia popianis
no good? Guess? Deep boy? That name was just right in your
brain. Huh. I'm just trying to think of a lottery pick about him.
Two years and he got his team option to climb. That's rough stuff
to pick of that you making. Clue three. I started twenty games as
a rookie, playing in eighty one, averaging three points and shooting fifty eight
percent from the foul line. Why did that start that many games if he
was playing so poorly? Yeah, we averaged three points in a lottery pick.
I have no idea, like, yeah average three points as a lot
was the draft? What's that? What year was the draft? Did we
say that twenty thirteen? No, it's not Anthony Bennett. So that's a
plus drafted in the lottery, right, Uh? Yep, got that twenty
thirteen. The draft was so forgettable I'm trying to remember what pick this guy
was. I can't. I knew he was a lottery pick, but I
wouldn't have remembered the number or you know that he was in the twenty thirteen
draft. Off rip. I'm so bad at that, and it's probably not
it's like the I would have been like in the neighborhood. But I don't
know if I would have. I would have guessed, if anything, I
would have guessed like a year or two earlier than that. Okay, Clue
four. The following year, I started sixty seven games, doubling my scoring
and averaging my career high in blocks. This is not helping. Just keep
going. Clue five. In the following five seasons, all with the team
that drafted me, I posted nearly identical stats every year. Who six,
I have made one career three pointer. My career percentage from deep is six
point seven percent, not a shoot. I should know this by now.
You will get it on the next clue. I think, all right,
yeah, so the country stuff has thrown me off. They just want to
throw out names like John Henson or somebody like that. But just where is
John Henson from? I said the country things throwing me off because like,
oh, I see, yeah, you can't say John Henson in twenty twenty
one, this is clue seven. In twenty twenty one, I was traded
to the Pelicans in a four team deal. The following season, I was
swapped for Yonis Valancunas. Fuck? Who was this? Is this not a
JINSA? Is it? No? He wasn't part of that trade too far
back? Who the fuck was traded for Yonna's Valentiunis? Why can't I remember
that? So it can't be Is it it's not Steven Adams? Is it?
It is? In fact Steven Adams. I didn't want to guess him.
I was like, oh, there's no, he's really one of only
four players from New Zealand to play in the NBA. I guess I'm trying.
I was trying to think of who the other ones were. I get
Aaron Baines is always someone that I'm like, is it Australia or New Zealand
for him? I think it's Australia. I think you're right. I don't
know who else is from New Zealand that I like. No, I'm sure
people are screaming at the at US. We could google it. We're not
going to because that's how this works. But a copy. You only had
three more here this this year, I sat out the season, but I
was traded to Houston for Victor oladipot nine. At one point in my career,
Draymond Green tended to kick me in the balls. I mean, who
hasn't had that like that down like five hundred and that broadens the scope last
clue. Throughout my career, I've started looking more and more like Jason Momo,
growing my hair out and adding to my badass tribal tattoo. Confident you
would have had it there, I'll give you an option. We can do
the I guess a player that I have for you that I don't think you'll
get. I'm sorry, my confidence in you was waiting. Maybe it's just
because I wouldn't have gotten it, or you could do who's Bill Walton talking
about? Well, you can't say. I have to take the challenge now
of maybe one I can't get. All right, are you ready? Then
I guess Clue one. I was the second player ever from my home country
to play in the NBA. Steven Adams, Rudy Fernandez, No, I
like that. Get some nice Steve Cutz here, weren't you from Spain?
Yeah? I know, like you naming a Canadian Andrew Wigan CLU two.
I came to the NBA in two thousand after going undrafted in nineteen ninety eight.
Two thousand, Oh wait, maybe you will get this one. I
feel like I should have known it on CLU three. But sorry undrafted two
thousand. Uh heater No. I like where your heads at though, Clue
three and both of my first two seasons in the NBA, I won a
championship with the Lakers, though it was largely an end of the bench guy
who saw midutes when the game was out of hand. Slava Medvedenko, you
got it that job. I would have gotten it Clue four. Known for
my offensive game, my defense and overall love of basketball were often called into
question. I might have thought that was Andrew Bynham at that point my career
year. My career year came in two thousand and three, where due to
injuries on the team, I started thirty eight games and averaged eight point three
points in five rebounds CLU six. After finishing my career in two thousand and
six, I got into local politics in my home country, running for office
in the largest city in the country. I didn't win lu seven. Both
my wife and I served in the military and our homelands ongoing war defending our
home country from invasion. I was laughing at the I didn't win, not
at the military invasion. For anyone who's curious. In twenty twenty two,
I auctioned off my championship ring to raise funds to help raise money for my
country's military post invasion. Jeanie Bus gifted me two replacement rings. Cluein Stephen
A. Smith had an unhealthy obsession with calling me a scrub that's thank you.
I can hear him saying his name or no. He always used to
say Rascho Nasterovitch too, steven A. Wood, I get a scrubb bit
with those. No, I don't know, all right, I got I
actually think I have some. Oh, no, I think we did those.
I have one more guests A player for you from Mike that I'm pretty
sure we haven't done that. You that you will get all right, let's
do it. I have to ask you some of the Bill Walton stuff.
Okay, already getting a kick out of him. We'll do that. We'll
do this, and then we can end with the Walton stuff. Clue number
one. I was drafted in twenty eleven by the Sixers. Twenty eleven.
Oh my god, it's so long ago, well before the I'm like thinking
process ever Sixers. I'm like, well, no, that's even further away
than that. A couple of years before twenty eleven by the Sixers. I
think this is Drew Holiday. This is not drewe Holiday. That's a really
good guest though. As a rookie, clues I played fifty one games,
starting fifteen and averaging five points a game. So not doing much as a
rookie twenty eleven is really throwing me off. When did they draft Andre Gadala?
He's like, oh five, oh four? Shit, all right,
I think I still got nothing. So okay, Clu three. After my
rookie season, I was traded to the team I'm most known for playing for.
So the Sixers did something stupid in twenty twelve. That was the year
of the four team Dwight Howard trade. Was that twenty twelve? No,
maybe year after the lockout. Maybe I'm not gonna respond, all right,
So twenty twelve traded who did they give up for? Oh? No,
Nicole? I Vucevic. That's correct. Wait did you get there? Good
job? That was huge. That was I thought you were. I well,
once you mentioned the trade, I think you heat it up a little
bit. Yeah, you got it. It is Nikolovucevic. I was like
kind of moving my head weird because it's like, is he most known for
the Magic or is it the bulls? Now? Probably the Magic. I
guess he was an All sco He's like, he's infamous. I know clue
four. I played with that team referring to the Magic for part of nine
seasons before being traded the team. Wow, was that long? Jesus the
team I'm currently playing four five. In the process of getting traded, I
reunited with my college teammate. I guess that's DeRozan because they were at USC
together six. Entering the league as a post player, I gradually added more
range to my jump shot to the point I was considered a stretch big.
That label evaporated this year as my shooting fell off on a team caught in
no man's land. It's just spoon feeding us now. My seven, the
team I was traded from, made the playoffs this year, and I was
a dud in my team's playing game opportunities Clue eight. I bet my current
team wishes they could have Wendell Carter Junior and Franz Wagner instead of me on
a contract. I feel like that's some version of that. Exact sentiment is
in every single thing I ever write about Vucevic and the Bulls. At this
stage, it's just like, yeah, look, you know what, until
they change their ways, that's the analysis, right. It feels like it's
been pretty steady for quite a while. Then get to have new takes written
about you until you actually do something to warrant Yeah, you need to do
it. You perform a new take worthy act before you're rewarded with new takes
before we get into guess or what Bill want about? I want to use
this. I'll mention it in discord. We're going to be in the market.
I've just decided for I'd like to do shorts on who whose NBA draft
comp is? This so not necessarily these long winded who are they talking about
type things, but more so like who'se NBA draft comp was Michael Jordan?
And then you give us four choices if you want to send those, I
would say minimum of three. If you want us to make a segment out
of those message me or Grant because he can pose them to me. I
know a lot of our shorts are just me yelling at Grant to give me
the correct answer. Uh, do that, so I'll mention it in discord
at some point. But that would be fun because we would definitely get a
lot of those wrong. Oh yeah, for sure. Like it's like ten
percent hit rate probably seems high. Well because they people will give us like
the most ridiculous Uh. It'll be like, I don't know, it's Trey
Young and it's like shades of uh, like Goga bitadze and what? Okay?
Grant? Who is Bill Walton talking about? Where would the Clippers be
without Blank? Lamar Odom, Michael Oloma, Kandhi, Sean Rooks, Matt
Barnes or JJ Reddick feels like a Sean Rooks. That is correct? Nice
job. Who is Bill Walton talking about? Blank? Represents all that is
right with the NBA and the war world? Colenna as a bookie, Daniel
Gibson, Derek Fisher, Elton Brand or Drew Gooden. I gotta say,
Daniel Gibson, that is incorrect. The answer is Elton brand. Sure,
Oh, all, that's right with the world. Sorry. Who is Bill
Walton talking about? In transition? The extension, the spread eagle, the
posterization over, the imaginary defender, the professors over at M I T couldn't
diagram a more perfect model of a human being exploding to the rim A Lebron
James B Jason Richardson, C. Jordan Hill, d Ha Keem Warwick,
E Dion Glover. Oh, I thought it was for sure a Keem Warick.
I have to go with my gut and say, oh, but Jordan
Hill's right there. I'm gonna say, hey, Key Worrick, you would
be wrong. It was Lebron James. Oh, that's toough. These are
the impossible ones when it's like, okay, that does make sense. I
don't know why I read the letters in that answer. By the way,
who is Bill Walton talking about? Blank is doing things we've never seen from
anybody from any planet. Kenneth for Reid, Ike the Ogu, Doug McDermott,
Tracy McGrady, or Jerry Stackhouse. So Tracy McGrady is like the only
one you could semi credibly say that about. So he's out. Uh,
who's the first name. You said, Kenneth forar Reid. It's gotta be
Kenneth for Reid. It's Tracy McGrady. Ah, two in a row of
like semi sensible players. Oh, I'm never gonna get these right. This
is the fifth one. He's got more if you want me to keep going,
but this is where I was gonna stop. All right, just do
this one. Blank is the second best player in the Eastern Conference. Tyson
Chandler, Johan Petrow, Kenyan Martin, Anton Jamison or Joe Johnson. Wow,
I gotta go Joe Johnson. Incorrect, it's Kenyan Martin. Shout out
to Mike, who comes up with these just the choices? Yeah, or
just a key Warwick and as like not the answer, that's just that's in
Fred. That's really incredible. That's in cred. The meat of this game
is in the choices, because like, is the more obscure the name is
or the more ill fitting, the more likely I am to pick it.
And and now we're like Mike is like zagging at the exact right times and
and making it so it's the correct like the quote unquote correct person. Yeah,
it's just it's really it's like an uncrackable riddle. I could do who
is Bill Walton talking about? I could do a two hour episode on that.
It might be our least downloaded episode of all time, but I enjoy
the Bill Walton. This is hysterical. Yeah, do you want to take
us out? Dan? Oh shit? Thank you everyone. If you've made
over two hours of content coming your way. If you have not already,
you've listened this far. Subscribe, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you
get your podcasts means a lot, means a lot, even if you don't
use YouTube, Go like, comment on the video, share it, help
the algorithm love us back. We had questions about where some of our that
our episodes have sort of diminished, where we're doing like two a week,
sometimes three instead of three or four. Share us and make us more popular
so that we're inclined to carve out more time to put out more episodes.
Otherwise they're going to continue to dwindle. That is, it's weird to say
that as the number one podcast of all time, but we would appreciate any
shares, recommendations, bumps on Twitter, since we're still Shadow band, and
by we I mean I use Twitter and Grant does not, so we're collectively
shadow band h join our discord. The links in the podcast YouTube description you
can send us who is Bill Won't talking about our guests the players, Those
are always fun to send in. You can check out our merch the link
to that's in the podcast and YouTube description. Until next time, and as
always, we need to shout out to the One, the Only, the
and Della the Thunder would have won the semifinals if they had him on their
roster, Frankie and Lachina, And apologies to Jared Allen, who should immediately
go in the Cavs front office and demand and trade them. Seeing that preposterous
just report with no name appied to it, that's I'm still angry about it.
I'm neither a Cavs fan nor related to Jared Awn