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Usually coming into Great American about an
hour or so, would schedule to Karen

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Johnson a Channel five that you're here
to talk about more of what's happening in

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Claremont County. And there's probably few
lawyers in the Try state that have the

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same experiences of James Bogan when it
comes to representing individuals charged with death penalty

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eligible offenses. There's not been an
announcement yet they're going to go for the

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death penalty, But to knowing Mark
Catolva, who is the prosecutor there,

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and the fact Claremont County is a
very tough place to have a criminal defense

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made on an n GRII I would
anticipate some decision might be made in the

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next few weeks to try this as
a death penalty case. That puts all

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kinds of things in play. And
of course Chad Derman is facing I hope

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the death penalty soon for the murder
of a seven, five and three year

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old sons. He lined them up
and shot them one by one. I

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assumed the seven year old made it
out of the house, chased him down

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in the field, brought him back
and executed him again. And James Ogan

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has great expertise in this area,
and James Bogan, welcome again to the

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Bill Cunningham Show. And James tell
the American people about how many aggravated murder

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cases have you handled and how many
were not guilty by reason of insanity,

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the so called n GRI. I've
handled quite a few not aggravated murder cases

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I've handled, but on three death
penalty cases, two of them I did

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not go on to until completion,
and the third one we tried it and

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he was got life without parole.
And if you were called last year,

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I had that roseland Bar shooter where
he was schizophrenic and was unmedicated at the

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time, but he was found by
two separate doctors not to qualify for not

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guilty by reason in Sandy. So
when the public says, oh, he'll

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get off on insanity, that's really
a misconception. It's an extremely hard standard

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to meet. Let's talk about the
standard because in this case, as far

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as the defense is, one might
be I didn't do it. That appears

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to be off the board. Another
one might be self defense or justification that's

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off the board. The only thing
that remains is n GRII not guilty by

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reason of insanity. What are the
standards in the state of Ohio if someone

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says I'm not guilty by reason of
insanity, what are the standards to find

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somebody not guilty under that banner?
Well, Bill, you would also be

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looking at competency and the serious mental
illness defense, which applies only to death

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penalty. But for not guilty better
reason of insanity, you have to prove

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that, as a result of a
severe mental disease or defect, that your

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client did not appreciate the wrongfulness of
their actions. In the rose On Bar

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shooting case, the reason why the
doctors felt that he knew right fromong was

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because right after he shot the guy
in the head, he ran, which

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tends to show that you're wrong.
Trying to kill witnesses, trying to get

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away, or trying to kill yourself
are three things that would indicate right from

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wrong. But in this case,
what a lawyer would be looking at with

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this tragedy in Claremont County as the
fact that the defendants did not try to

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kill any witnesses, He did not
try to kill himself, he did not

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try to run after he shot these
boys in front of a bunch of witnesses.

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He sat down on the steps and
with his rifle by his side.

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He wasn't holding it, was laying
by his side, just waiting for the

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police. And so in a case
where he would kill the witnesses, I

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assume his wife, and in a
case where he would try to kill himself

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and I guess and miss or in
a case he ran away, that would

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be cognizant of guilt that I know
I did wrong. Therefore I'm getting away

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from the wrong. And so the
fact that Chad Dermott sat on the front

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steps with the rifle on his left
side is indication of insanity. That those

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are things that his lawyers would need
to look at and doctors would ultimately make

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the determination. But even if he's
found not to qualify for nculity by reason

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insanity, there's a serious mental illness
defense which does qualify certain defendants with a

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serious mental illness from the death penalty. This is under the Ohio Revised Code.

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If you want me to describe that, yeah, describe antil. So

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instead of I didn't know right from
wrong, I didn't know. I thought

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I was shooting a coke machine and
it was my three year old. Assuming

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that doesn't fly, what is this
serious mental defense that you lawyers sometimes look

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at to get someone free of these
charges. What is that? This is

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actually something that now has to be
looked at in every death penalty case.

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First, the defendant has been diagnosed
with either schizophrenia, schizo effective disorder,

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bipolar disorder, or delusional disorder.
And the second prong is while not meeting

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the stand for being found knock guilty
by reason in Sandy and being found competent

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to stand trial, is what significantly
the mental illness significantly impaired the person's capacity

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to exercise rational judgment in relation to
the person's conduct with respect to either conforming

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the person's conduct to the requirements of
the law or appreciating the nature, consequences,

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or wrongfulness of the person's conduct.
Those are the prongs under the serious

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mental illness defense in Ohio. So
he can claim, look, I'm seriously

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mentally ill. I think according to
prosecutors Mark Takova, he planned this for

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many weeks. There was a news
conference held last week and which the prosecutors

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said he planned this out. Does
not work against a not guilty of a

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reason of insanity or a serious mental
illness. If someone is planning out if

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for a period of three, let's
say three weeks, he's planning out to

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do it, it gives up in
the morning. He takes his shar he

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brushes his taith, puts his shoes
on, puts his clothes on. That's

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indication of the mind is working.
I don't know if he had a job,

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but let's say he's working, gets
in a car, has enough mental

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capacity to start the car. He
conforms to the traffic laws as he drives

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to work. Every day, he
has conversations that work with individuals that are

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of such a character they don't turn
him in for mental illness. He then

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leaves work. He's obeying stop signs, he's stopping at traffic lights, he's

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yielding to the right away. In
other words, his mind is working every

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step along the way. Doesn't that
work against the mental illness. If a

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person's mind is working and that proves
they're not mentally ill, yes that is

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a factor, and yes that would
be a factor in the probably doesn't possibly

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doesn't qualify column. On the other
hand, what you'd also have to look

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at is why did he plan it? Did he think these boys were possessed

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by demons or something. Now I'm
just speculating because I'm not a doctor and

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I'm not on this case, but
those are all things that need to be

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looked at. Well. Hold on
on that point, James Bogan, what

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if God was telling him that he
had to kill these three boys, that

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they had to be sent to heaven
or maybe to hell, whatever his sick

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mind would say. There's been some
speculation that he was listening to God when

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he killed the three boys. That's
definitely something to look at that would show

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delusions. And one thing I was
just getting at Bill is I saw an

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interview with his dad by WCPO,
and the dad had indicated that his son

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had choked him back in twenty ten, or his son was charge with choking

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in twenty ten. I'm wondering if
that could have been a sign of something

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else going on with him twenty ten
at his age, that would be around

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the time where if he does have
a mental health issue, that would be

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he's thirty two now, that would
be around the time where first breaks tend

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to happen because of the male brain
that develops by the time they're twenty five

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or thirty. So if you're a
teenage boy or a teenage girl, there's

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a terrible events taking place where teenage
girls are performing self harm on themselves.

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That those are the times when mental
illness tends to emerge. Is between the

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ages like fourteen and twenty five years
old for a male. So if this

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happened when he was like twenty years
old, that would indicate he's going down

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the avenue of mental illness. That's
something that could be a sign. Now

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I could be way off on that, and I'm just speculating, but that's

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something if you're his lawyer, you
want to make sure stuff like that is

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in front of the doctors who are
evaluating your bait. You know, they

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like to have as much collateral information
as possible, be as thorough as possible.

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Now, lastly, on the issue
of mental illness, sometimes the quality

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and character of the offense committed plays
into it. If some man and woman

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gets into it and they're going crazy
at each other and somebody pulls out a

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gun and shoots the spouse, you
can say, well, you know it

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was a spouse fight. You get
emotional, crazy stuff goes on, But

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when you kill a seven to five
and a three year old, there can

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be no justification. I've seen the
pictures and way of Karen Johnson coming up

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in about an hour on this topic, they're beautiful little children. Does the

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quality of the crime committed play into
the fact that no sane person would do

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that? No, that does not
play into it at all. I mean

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the one time I actually did have
a client file found knock Old Sparts in

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the sandy. It was a robbery
case where he knocked a guy off his

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bicycle, took it, and then
just stayed right there in the area instead

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of trying to get away with it. So really, derman because he didn't

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leave the scene, because he was
compliant, is an indication of n GRII

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because he didn't run, didn't kill
the other witness, shot her in the

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hand, but he didn't kill the
stepdaughter. That the fact that he stayed

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at the scene helps his defense.
I think it does. And the wife

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was only shot in the hand.
I believe when she was trying to defend

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the children, she was trying to
grab the gun from him. So he

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did not kill up with a target. Yeah, so she wasn't a target.

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He didn't try to kill her.
He could have easily taken them the

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gunback pointed at her and blown her
away and he could have easily blown away

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his stepdaughter or any other witnesses who
were there. Now, how did this

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all fit in the mix? I
don't know. Again, I'm just speculating,

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but those are all things that would
have to be looked at. So

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the fact that he didn't kill his
wife and his stepdaughter and the fact that

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he stayed at the scene is more
indicative of a mental illness than someone who

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would leave. That you could interpret
it is that. Now. I can't

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say that to a certainty, again
because I'm not a doctor, but that's

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certainly something to look at. How
hard would it be when I did active

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cases of NGR, I could always
find one or two psychiatrists that would say

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this person is mentally ill, could
not conform his behavior to the dictates of

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the law, did not know the
difference between right and wrong. It wasn't

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that hard. Since you're in the
business actively today, is it somewhat easy

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or difficult to find a psychiatrist to
say that someone is not guilty by reason

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of insanity? Is that still somewhat
easy to do? You really don't have

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rent and experts the court clinic.
They tend to be well in Hamilton County

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at the court clinic. I've never
used the psychologist or psychiatrist out in Claremont

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County. But the doctors who are
brought in by the court to do the

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initial evaluation, I've always on them
to be very objective. And then when

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you go and get someone like doctor
Carla Dryer or something like that for a

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second opinion, they're not going to
be. In my experience, the credible

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ones are not going to be renting
experts. So right now, last question,

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when I was more actively involved,
I wanted cases in Hamilton County,

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in Cincinnati. I didn't want them
in Butler County. I didn't want them

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in Boone County. I didn't want
him in Claremont County because the jury pool

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can be a bit more difficult in
Claremont County than it might be in Hamilton

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County. Is that still true?
Yeah, you have to be in my

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experience, you have to be more
careful with jury such and out in the

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outlying counties. Now, I'm not
saying that as a knock on anybody,

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but that's just by the numbers.
But you know, I was, you

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know, in my death colony case, I was in Butler County and we

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were able to get the jury to
not even considered a death penalty, and

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you're not being assigned in the case. Let me ask you this, James,

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You've got no communication in this case
whatsoever. If the court would get

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a hold of you, because you're
one of the few qualified, there's all

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kinds of certification you got to go
through. Well, would you take this

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kind of case? Absolutely? I
go by the old school rule, the

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unwritten rule that you know of,
that when a judge asked you to take

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a case, you don't say no. And taking it not an endorsement of

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the client's conduct that they're accused of. It's an endorsement of the constitution and

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due process. Because if these writs
get diminished for even people charged with the

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worst crimes, they eventually get diminished
for the rest of us. And you

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remember when I was on here last
year talking about the story of John Adams,

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right right with the Boston massacre.
Yeah, he said he took the

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case because he believed that every person
charged with a crime is entitled to a

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fair trial and a competent defense.
He felt very wrongly about that, and

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he considered that one of the most
important services he ever rendered to this country.

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Are you looking forward to a telephone
call, because I would not look

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forward to do in this case.
But you're saying you would do it.

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I would do it if I was
asked. Now, do I actively solicit

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to do these cases? No,
that's ambulance chasing. But whenever a judge

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asked me to take a difficult case, which judges do, tend to trust

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me with difficult cases because in addition
to my private practice, I do take

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these some appointments. Yes, you
do it because it's to make sure there's

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due process. Yeah, without due
process all of us and makes it it

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makes it certain the system make sure
in the next case they cross all the

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teas and dot all the eyes by
having a rigorous defense of Chad Derman.

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I don't think I think it'd be
damn near impossible to get a not guilty

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in Clarmack County on this case.
But otter things have happened. And James

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Bogan, once again, thank you
for your expertise and thank you for coming

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on the Bill Cunningham Show this Tuesday
afternoon. Thank thank you very much to

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thank you Bill, always a privilege, Bill, Thank you, God bless

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you. Let's continue with more line
becomes available five one, three, seven,

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four, nine, seven thousand pounds, seven hundred and new at and

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T and more likely they're going to
try this to a three judge panel.

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I think that's the better. The
legal arguments may fall upon more fertile ground

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to judges than juries, because I
don't think jurors are going to give this

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guy any break at all. Bill
Cunningham, News Radio seven hundred of you.

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Did you know that if you miss
any part of our shows, you

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can catch the podcast of that show
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also know that a snail can sleep
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our podcasts they could be listening to
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