1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How would you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,279 Become a patron For just five dollars a month. You get access to 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:14,000 a private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a 4 00:00:14,039 --> 00:00:18,359 month will get you that and a special dot net rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:37,039 up now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey guess what, 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,520 it's dot in rocks. This is Carl Franklin and this is Richard Campbell and 7 00:00:40,759 --> 00:00:45,560 we're back from Sweden. Yeah. That was good. It was really good, 8 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,640 especially the Italian place. We had dinner on the last night. Italian 9 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:53,840 places Sweden, but it's very nice. There's lots of great ethnic restaurants all 10 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,759 over Sweden. Oh yeah, Stockholm is where we were. Yea, yeah, 11 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,159 somebody ordered a bottle, AMARNI who was that? And your night is 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,799 not going to get worse because you have a bottle about a room, which 13 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,680 I know it's amazing, amazing stuff. All right. Well, anyway, 14 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:11,799 we had a good time. We're back and Amy is here and we'll be 15 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:15,799 talking to her in just a minute. But first we had this little matter 16 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:26,159 of better no framework awesome, all right, man, what do you got 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:32,319 all right. So this is a blog post from a very prolific blogger about 18 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:40,400 Blazer, Gerald Daret, and it's using dot Net code from JavaScript using web 19 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,400 assembly. Now, okay, it sounds like it's no big deal, but 20 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,359 here's here's the opening paragraph. Blazer web assembly allows you to run a dot 21 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:53,519 Net web application in a browser. Right starting with dot Net seven, you 22 00:01:53,560 --> 00:02:00,200 can easily run any dot Net method from JavaScript without needing the whole Blazer framework. 23 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,359 This is interesting. Let's see how to run a dot Net method from 24 00:02:05,439 --> 00:02:08,439 JavaScript. So he tells you how to install the workload, create a new 25 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:15,120 console lapp, and then he adds the properties in the project file, shows 26 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:22,240 you how to call it, create a c sharp class, and then invoke 27 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:27,280 it from JavaScript. And he's literally giving instructions like you're doing a notepad or 28 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,199 at least vs code, but no dependency on studio or anything like no studio. 29 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:36,360 Yeah, yeah, it's pretty awesome. And so when you compile it, 30 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,439 it turns into eight hundred and nineteen kilobytes. Okay, I mean it's 31 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:46,400 not minuscule, but it's small. You've got images bigger than that on your 32 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,840 web I do. Yeah, yeah, and I think you know it's like 33 00:02:50,879 --> 00:02:55,199 what two and a half megabytes for the whole Blazer library to come down, 34 00:02:55,439 --> 00:03:00,360 but which feels way bigger than eight hundred k. Yeah, because it is, 35 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:05,800 because it is so there you go and it's fun. And this guy 36 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:12,360 Gerald has lots and lots of good blog posts and I've referenced them and Blazer 37 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,840 trained before. Just a very smart guy. Maybe we should get him on 38 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,039 here. Yeah, we could probably arrange that. Yeah, that's what I 39 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,280 got. What do you got? I grabbed a comment off of show eighteen 40 00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:27,960 fifteen, which we did back in October last year, when I think we 41 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,080 were in person. Was that at the NDC Oslo conference. I think it 42 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:37,199 was y O'Brien about Playwright the testing web apps, because yeah, we're going 43 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:39,240 to talk about web apps today, so I thought you talked about testing WebOps 44 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,960 too, And Dave Parvin says, I have not used Playwright yet, but 45 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,360 I have done the older UI testing and it was painful. Just getting into 46 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,080 consistently find controls was a pain. I'm glad to hear that Playwright might be 47 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,719 doing the job better. I don't know when I'll be using Playwright with my 48 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:58,199 current projects, because I'm working on desktop applications. Written in C plus plus 49 00:03:58,199 --> 00:04:00,960 the C sharp, and I can say that I have a lot of unit 50 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,360 tests that are fairly good, and with the help of Verify, they're getting 51 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,039 better. Simon Kropp Yeah, yeah, the project I'm working on is a 52 00:04:09,159 --> 00:04:15,000 huge project, and unit tests were not getting made until halfway through the project. 53 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,079 Stop me if you've heard this one right, Yeah, sounds very familiar. 54 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,879 At this point, we have over thirty three thousand tests. Good lord, 55 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,839 and it is amazing how often we make a change and a unit test 56 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:30,920 fails because of it. Finding that problem that is in the code we change 57 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,399 is so much more helpful than waiting for a customer to find that problem. 58 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:38,160 It is more fun when we find the failure was in the code that we 59 00:04:38,199 --> 00:04:41,519 did not change, what was depending on code we did change, and with 60 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,279 the change we made, it broke. The other thing, A certain quote 61 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:47,120 from Billy Hollis is coming to mind right now. I don't know if you 62 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,439 know what I'm talking about. I could probably guess. It is amazing how 63 00:04:50,439 --> 00:04:55,759 many times the unit tests have pointed to problems that we did not know we 64 00:04:55,879 --> 00:04:59,040 had, right, because you gotta imagine this as an old codebase that Yeah, 65 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:01,480 so he does understand all of these side effect right you're going on, 66 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,079 and sometimes it pointed out errors in our assumptions about how a piece of code 67 00:05:06,079 --> 00:05:10,560 would be used. And that's good testing, man, Like, that's how 68 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,000 you own a code base when you've got to take it over and really get 69 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,120 get comfortable with it. Is picking up on all of those things. Testing 70 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,600 helps you with that, you know. I can I don't know if this 71 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:23,560 has ever happened on any teams that you manage, Richard, but I haven't 72 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,720 seen it, but I can envision, you know, when somebody comes in 73 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:30,120 and says, we got to tear all this out and refactor all this and 74 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,160 everything's going to change, and the testers go, you can't do that to 75 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:41,560 me. I've got on this beautiful tests. What are you doing? But 76 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,959 you know, well, I know we talked about this on the show back 77 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:46,720 in the day, which admittedly is the better part of ten years ago now, 78 00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:53,279 but it's when every time with Strange Loop, at least twice when we 79 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:58,079 did a major update, it trashed the tests and it's literally easier to start 80 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,360 over, and we did each time. But and it wasn't until like the 81 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,920 third iteration that we finally knew how to write tests that would be more resilient 82 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,439 for subsequent revisions, Like it took a while to really write resilient testing for 83 00:06:12,519 --> 00:06:15,800 the system as a whole. It's not trivial to do so, Dave, 84 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,079 thank you so much for your comment. A copy of music Cobi is on 85 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:20,040 its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music copy, 86 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,800 write a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on the 87 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,480 facebooks. If you publish every show there, and if you comment there and 88 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,000 I read on the show, we'll send you a copy music copy. And 89 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,519 you should definitely follow us on Mastodon. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech up 90 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,000 dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell at mastodon dot social. Send us a 91 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:41,279 two ruy too too. No matter how funny it is. We love Toots, 92 00:06:41,079 --> 00:06:44,959 it's a good I love Macedon. It's cool. There's a lot of 93 00:06:44,959 --> 00:06:47,639 cool people there. Yeah, it's it's got it's got that small community feel 94 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,959 still in it. It really does. Yeah, and it's not polluted by 95 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,680 advertising, which I like. Yeah. I mean, I still worry about 96 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,839 its sustainability, but that's always a concern. Well, at least it's not 97 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:03,040 centralized, you know, no, And I saw a great conversation on it 98 00:07:03,079 --> 00:07:10,680 the other day where a major Masterton server with fifteen thousand users was shutting down, 99 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,560 like for whatever reason that the guy had to get out or it was 100 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,839 just you know, he had stut it inappropriately, and it was trivial for 101 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:19,439 those fifteen thousand users to migrate to to they spread out to a bunch of 102 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,360 different servers and all their history stuff was capped. And so one person was 103 00:07:24,399 --> 00:07:27,279 saying, this is why massadon will never succeeded. Other guys saying, this 104 00:07:27,399 --> 00:07:31,399 is exactly why Mastadon will succeed. It's like raid for messaging. Yeah, 105 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,879 it was very interesting. Yeah, it's cool. All right, let's let's 106 00:07:34,879 --> 00:07:41,199 bring Amy on. Amy Kaepernick wears many hats as a business owner, senior 107 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,560 engineer, mentor, and conference addict. She regularly shares her knowledge with her 108 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,120 peers and the next generation of developers by mentoring, speaking at, and organizing 109 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:57,399 events, as well as mentoring up and coming developers within her business. She's 110 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:03,000 been recognized as a Twilio Champion and a Microsoft MVP since twenty nineteen and knows 111 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,600 how to write a bio with years and dates instead of this many years that 112 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:13,240 many years. Welcome Amy, welcome back. Thanks thanks for having me. 113 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,240 Yeah, every time I hear my bio read out as an introduction, that 114 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:22,639 always always makes me go, wow, well I actually sound like I know 115 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:28,120 what I'm talking about. You've done some stuff. I've done some stuff. 116 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,720 Yeah, certainly have Yeah, yeah, yeah, no question and obviously been 117 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:37,320 busy. We saw each other at NDC London, Yes, which was good 118 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,559 fun. Yes, I'm hoping this year will be a little bit less busy 119 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:48,039 than last year. Last year just got very busy, very quickly. Yeah. 120 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,240 I had this intend to say everything yes to everything last year and did 121 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,240 a lot of things, and this year I wouldn't say yes quite as often, 122 00:08:56,759 --> 00:09:01,559 and I am failing. Last year My intent was to just ease back 123 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:07,200 into things a little bit, just just a practice run. And yeah it 124 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,960 was there was. There's not much of an ease. It was about as 125 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:15,360 easy as an exponential curve can get, not ease, not ease. Yeah, 126 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,879 all right. Yeah. You did a talk and I certain and I 127 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,120 paid close attention to it about this sort of the modern web front end development 128 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,480 because we've gone through a lot of different ways to build web pages over the 129 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,960 year. I would argue that just a few years ago, modern front end 130 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,600 development meant angular and SPA. I think it still means SPA. Yeah, 131 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:39,320 yeah, it definitely does in a lot of circles. There's a lot of 132 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:46,039 conversations about it. But yeah, it's because we know this tech changes so 133 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:52,720 quickly. But often when people are talking about what the modern front end is, 134 00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:58,159 as you've already identified, they're talking what freeworks were using, and they're 135 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,519 talking it's often what shiny flavor of JavaScript are we're using today, which we 136 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:09,440 all know changes. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's been two new frameworks 137 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:15,039 already so far in this recording. I mean, I did feel like it's 138 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,720 like it cooled off, like it's been Angular, view and React for a 139 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:26,440 while. Yeah, so there's there's still but I think there's less. There's 140 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,000 there's less coming, but there's more coming within those sections. So like, 141 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:37,080 for example, in the React world, the shiny new thing is remix, 142 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,960 I think unless I've missed the one that's come after that. So there's still 143 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,759 a lot of new things coming out, but the problem is people are they're 144 00:10:45,759 --> 00:10:50,360 struggling to keep up with that. And so what my talk and the workshop 145 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:56,279 I run on the same topic is we're actually looking at the fundamentals behind it. 146 00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:00,919 So, yeah, okay, what you're using React, using Angular, 147 00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:09,440 what flavor itever you're using. But underneath, it's still HTML that you're actually 148 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,759 writing it. You've still got HTML as the structure. Whether you write it 149 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:18,159 as j SAX or start at HTML, it's still going to appear as HTML 150 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,240 on a web page. And so making sure that we're spending the time with 151 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:26,039 those fundamentals because although they haven't changed quite as quickly, there's still a lot 152 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,480 of things changing that some people don't realize. There's browsers are still bringing out 153 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:37,600 new HTML elements and new features to the browser. So keeping up to date 154 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:43,399 with those things because the way we can do things now is just so much 155 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,720 easier. So it's part of a Yeah, it's part of my talk and 156 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,919 as part of my workshop we actually go through it's like, okay, well, 157 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,799 what are all the things that you would like to do, Like if 158 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:58,039 you want to have a date picker on your website, how do you do 159 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,720 that? And everyone always goes, well, we use a library has one, 160 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:07,200 or we find a package jaw My favorite, which is the answer I'm 161 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,480 looking for, which is we use a JavaScript package, which that's then different 162 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:16,480 depending on what you're doing. But there's actually a native HTML date picker. 163 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,200 Yeah it's pretty good too. Yeah, it's it's pretty good. There's a 164 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,799 little bit of validation that you can do as well, and it works across 165 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:28,960 multiple devices, so if people are on their phones, it will pin up 166 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:35,360 a mobile friendly date picker compared to if they're on a desktop. Now, 167 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:37,919 if we can just get select to work on a phone, that would be 168 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:45,279 great, but select select works, but yeah, it's it's not spectacular. 169 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,879 However, there is also a not quite an autocomplete, but there is another 170 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,799 feature. There's another element called a data list, which gives you some features 171 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:01,679 of an autocomplete, so that people can type in and it will select from 172 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,200 pre filled options. It reminds me of a Windows cambo box, which is 173 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:09,600 in the day, Yeah, back in the day. It's sort of a 174 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,200 dropdown, but it's also a tax box, so you can start typing and 175 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,159 then then listeners. Yeah. Yeah, And so for a lot of that, 176 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,600 for a lot of what people are doing that that serves the requirements and 177 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:28,559 it means we've got a whole lot less dependencies. So that's what my current 178 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,600 passion in trying to trying to get the message out about those those fundamentals and 179 00:13:33,159 --> 00:13:37,559 reminding people that there are other things that are still changing, and looking up 180 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:43,000 and just working out what they don't know and keeping an eye on what's actually 181 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:48,519 still happening in that area. I'm grabbing some links like to the Native Dick 182 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,879 Bicker and so forth, and I'm going to W three schools by reflex just 183 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:56,559 because I find them. Love W three schools. Yeah, they're old school, 184 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:58,080 it's kind of relatable, it's tough, totally up to date. And 185 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:03,399 just realizing it's active server pages, I mean it's it's not even APAX, 186 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:09,159 it's ASP. Wow, that's cool. This a moment I have this sort 187 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:16,639 of thought like the Cobbler's children have no shoes. Yeah, but it works, 188 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:20,039 it does right, And and I bring up that point to say exactly 189 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:26,720 that it's like, hey, I've got the teleric Uh set of HTML five 190 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:30,799 controls right that the Kendle controls, and it's got a pretty good date picker 191 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:33,320 in it. It's got a selector in it, like what's my incentive to 192 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,440 change? Because it depends. So you've had access to that. But if 193 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:46,559 people if people are using plane react that doesn't come with it. They've got 194 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:50,279 to they've got to have something in there, So that's when people are often 195 00:14:50,360 --> 00:15:00,000 reaching for a library or another third party package. The advantage of the net 196 00:15:00,039 --> 00:15:05,759 eative controls as well is there are a lot more accessible so browsers don't just 197 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,679 chuck this in there. There has been a lot of consultation that's happened with 198 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:16,759 a lot of very smart people, and so accessibility has had a lot of 199 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:24,279 thought already gone into it, whereas when you grab third party package it may 200 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,120 not have had that thought go into it. So when you bring in a 201 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,879 native HTML control, people can use it using their keyboards. People can't using 202 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,759 screen readers know what's going on. There's a whole lot more of that that's 203 00:15:37,799 --> 00:15:43,240 just built in natively. So when people are used to putting a whole lot 204 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:46,759 of ARIA labels and roles and things on there for screen readers to announce, 205 00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:50,440 it's just that you don't have to. It just happens. Yeah, that's 206 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,679 a good point, but it's it reduces the barrier to entry, right, 207 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,480 I mean, you don't have to be you know, I downloaded the repair 208 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,840 and climb the RepA, but oh I need this license for this tool and 209 00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:04,559 that tool and this tool on that tool. Now I got to go buy 210 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:11,639 developer licenses for those things. Oh, your license needs to be renewed, 211 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:18,200 etc. Yeah. I'm just an accessibility perspective that maybe that control supports accessibility, 212 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,639 maybe it doesn't. Maybe it supports multi lingual, maybe it doesn't. 213 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,039 But anything that's needed to the browser almost certainly does. Yeah. And usually 214 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,919 it's the controls or the properties and the you know, the interfaces are so 215 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:40,679 fundamental that you can modify them with standard HTMLCSS, CHIVASCRIPT without too much fanfare. 216 00:16:41,159 --> 00:16:44,279 Yeah, so all of that stuff just makes it so much easier. 217 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,039 Part of my fundamentals is we then spend time going back to the CSS fundamentals, 218 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:55,240 so not doing all of the bright and shiny things, but just the 219 00:16:55,399 --> 00:17:00,200 overall layouts and stuff. So doing a lot of CSS, which I know 220 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:04,880 we talked about last time I was on the show, so I'm not gonna 221 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,440 I'm not going to go through that again, but looking at all of the 222 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:12,799 other changes that we've had to see assess that actually make things so much easier 223 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:21,400 to build out overall layouts these days, Like even things we've got aspect ratio 224 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:27,359 is coming out to browsers. So that that means that we can actually if 225 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,519 we want a picture to be square, we can just how the browser that 226 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,880 look this picture should be this wide and it should be square. So those 227 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:45,079 kinds of things. Hey, that's a good idea that twenty years ago. 228 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,000 Yeah, so a lot of this stuff for anybody. I get a lot 229 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:55,720 of people in my workshop when I run them that they they they have been 230 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,759 working on the web for much longer than I have, and so the last 231 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,279 time they looked at HTML and CSS, it was so hard to do all 232 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,319 of these things. Yeah, so that's why they reached all the third party 233 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:11,039 stuff. That's why people are using things like bootstrap and tailwind because they go, 234 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,680 well, I tried to do it in CSS and I couldn't get it 235 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,880 to work. But the fact that it's changed, and so reminding them or 236 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,119 just letting them know that it's changed and these are all the new things, 237 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,440 it means they're able to go back. The fundamentals are something that I'm very 238 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,000 passionate about in pretty much all areas. If people go, I'm a complete 239 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,079 beginner, do I want to learn React? I go, well, you 240 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,720 want to learn JavaScript first and then learn React? Because the fundamentals are the 241 00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:42,559 backbones of everything that we build. So if you've got good fundamentals, it 242 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,240 makes it so much easier when you move up, and it means we're building 243 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,319 much higher quality applications. But aren't the latest versions of Tailwind and Bootstrap also 244 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,680 implementing the leaders features of CSS. They are, but it comes down to 245 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,759 reducing dependencies and keeping things nice and light. So my goal with teaching more 246 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:11,839 people the fundamentals is not to make everyone front end developers and to not do 247 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:17,559 front end developers out of the job. So I've worked with quite a few 248 00:19:17,599 --> 00:19:23,519 teams where they have one or two front end developers, but there's so much 249 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:27,680 stuff that they've got to do. So the rest of the developers they're able 250 00:19:27,759 --> 00:19:33,480 to go through and do stuff with CSS, and so without having to introduce 251 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:41,200 another dependency like Bootstrap or Tailwind. They can have the layout, they can 252 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,799 get things kind of sitting on the page where they need to be, so 253 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:48,519 that then when the front end developers come in, they don't have to go 254 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:55,640 through and clean everything up that structure that's already in there, the foundations of 255 00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:59,799 what they're building that's good to go, so they can go through and do 256 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,559 their stuff on top and just make it looking that much nice so they can 257 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:08,720 add the wow on top of it without having to go through and redo those 258 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:15,279 fundamentals. Yeah, so you're less likely to make a mess with the new 259 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,799 versions of CSS, even though, and allow those front end specialists then to 260 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,519 just amp things up a bit. Yeah, so I'm not saying it less 261 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:27,440 likely to make a mess. There's still likely messes, but there's just a 262 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,519 lot less to go through. So I've worked in projects where the structure has 263 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:37,119 been built out in something else, and I've then got to go through and 264 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,160 clean up a whole bunch of classes. And because everything's using that often the 265 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,680 hmail elements haven't been thought out. So I'm going through and replacing a whole 266 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,000 bunch of divs with something better. And so there's done a whole lot of 267 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:53,559 cleanup work that I have to do before I can get started. So whereas 268 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:59,240 yeah, going with just the foundations, there's a lot less cleanup that has 269 00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:03,279 to happen. So one of the things that's always bugged me about JavaScript in 270 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:10,839 CSS is the global nature of objects, classes, functions, whatever, variables. 271 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,559 And um, I know Blazer has got scoping right, so you've got 272 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,519 scope CSS in Blazer that's sort of built right into the framework. If I 273 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:26,240 have a component named you know whenever my grid dot razor, I can have 274 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,400 a file called my grid dot razor dot css, and all the CSS classes 275 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,119 and there only apply to that, and they do some magic behind the scenes 276 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,920 to rename things by prepending the names of the classes with you know, my 277 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:47,519 my grid whenever. Um do other frameworks and even the fundamental CSS and JavaScript 278 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:53,599 is it Is this happening in other places besides Blazer? Yes, absolutely so. 279 00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,839 The CSS and JavaScript has had scoping for as long as I've been aware 280 00:22:00,839 --> 00:22:04,559 of it. That was one of the big that was one of the big 281 00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:08,359 selling factors was hey, this is scoped, which means if you change this 282 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,920 thing in this massive application that you've got hundreds of developers working on, you're 283 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,400 not likely it's not likely to bleed out elsewhere. However, there are plenty 284 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:25,599 of other things. So my go to is typically CSS modules, which still 285 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,880 integrates nicely with JavaScript applications, and it sounds a little bit like how a 286 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,039 Blazer does it in that you can create so I have for each component, 287 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,160 I have a component in whatever it is that I'm using, and then I 288 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:47,720 have typically our styles dot module, dot CSS file and that will then go 289 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:52,240 through and yeah and magic the classes so that everything is scoped to that component. 290 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:59,039 So for me, that's what I've found works really well because the scoping 291 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,480 is fantastic. When you're working with a lot of other developers, or if 292 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:06,119 you're working if you're working on design libraries, you don't know where these things 293 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,480 are going to be pulled in, scoping makes things a lot easier. I've 294 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:12,640 even been doing a whole lot of work the project I've worked on last year 295 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:18,519 WordPress website, I've got CSS modules and scoping working in that, and this 296 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,400 was a yeah, like this is fairly easy to be able to integrate in 297 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:29,680 a whole lot of different places. It feels a lot more natural. So 298 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,480 some of the CSS in JS libraries that I came across, the problem is 299 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,640 they've tried to reimplement CSS, and so there's a whole lot of things that 300 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:44,319 you can't do or don't work the way they do in CSS, whereas CSS 301 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,720 modules is just doing the scoping with CSS, so it's just doing that magic 302 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,640 with the class names. So that works really well. It also works really 303 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,880 well with things like post CSS, which is really good or I do a 304 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:04,200 fair bit of work with SCSS or sas because they do a whole lot of 305 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,640 magic behind the scenes that makes my job easier. And so that integrates really 306 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:15,599 nicely with that too. Amy you a fan of type script. I actually 307 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,559 only learned type scripts last year. A whole lot of JavaScript developers I know 308 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,359 were very happy when I finally had to turn around and learn type script. 309 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,920 Well, what do you think. I definitely see the advantage of it. 310 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,920 So again, similar to scoping in CSS, when you're working with a whole 311 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,319 lot of developers and you're working on really big code basis, it definitely makes 312 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,119 things easier. And they have absolutely been times when I've been working in code 313 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,480 bases and I need to I need to pass a value into a component, 314 00:24:45,519 --> 00:24:48,240 but I can't remember exactly what the name of the property is. But rather 315 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:52,039 than me having to go and look at up, my computer's gone up you 316 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:57,279 want to it's property X that you're trying to define. Yeah, So that 317 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:03,039 there's definitely make things easier. So for those kinds of codebases and for part 318 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:10,119 of my work, that's definitely made things much easier. Which this is a 319 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,039 whole lot of people are going to be so excited about me saying. But 320 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:18,720 for a lot of my work as well, I build websites for small to 321 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:25,119 medium businesses, so I'm I'm dealing in the word press side of things, 322 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:30,319 and there's not going to be too many developments. You Look, that's a 323 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:37,400 whole other discussion that we can have, which I won't have. But that's 324 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,319 another talk that I have. That's actually a brand new talk that I'm going 325 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:48,839 to be giving word Press. Yes, and there's a reason why they love 326 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,480 it, um so, but it's the largest web platform in the world. 327 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:55,680 Yeah, yes, but for yeah, so for a lot of what I 328 00:25:55,759 --> 00:26:00,519 do, type script either isn't really I'm I'm sure I could add type script 329 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,720 to WordPress. I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. That is 330 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:08,279 not something I want to work out how to do. Yeah, but for 331 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,240 a lot of my stuff when I'm building small static websites, so they they 332 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:17,599 don't they're not going to change. So building in type script is often just 333 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,759 adding another dependency that I don't need. I liked where you think. Yeah, 334 00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:25,200 and when building from scratch, it does often make things a little bit 335 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,160 harder because from the start I don't necessarily know everything. I don't know what 336 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,599 type everything's going to be, I don't know what properties everything is going to 337 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,279 be. So when when I'm building from scratch on things, that does make 338 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:41,279 things a little bit harder. So I use it in half of my work, 339 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,839 but not so much in the other half. At least you don't have 340 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:51,519 that one right way scenario, like different solutions for different problems. Yeah, 341 00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:55,599 yeah, So I've I've worked with companies that do a one size fits all 342 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,720 solution, and in my experience, that never works. Like if you're trying 343 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,119 to please everybody, you're going to end up pleasing nobody. So instead, 344 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,920 I'm regularly I put a tweeter out the other day. So in the past 345 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,119 couple of weeks, I've worked on remix project, a view project, a 346 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,640 word press project, and an asteroid project. I'm regularly working across a whole 347 00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:26,400 lot of different things. And because not everything everything fits, the different situations 348 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,680 different right, right, But do you see some common metaphors, like you 349 00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:36,519 know your multi lingual so you know what's the same between all those different stacks, 350 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,759 Well, between all those different stacks. For me, it was getting 351 00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:48,160 into the component mindset, and so particularly the React and few space components is 352 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,119 how everything was built out. And that mindset was actually really great to bring 353 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:59,759 across to WordPress because WordPress it's really easy to have parts of things and pull 354 00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:04,279 it in PHP. So I actually found that that got a lot easier and 355 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:11,319 my code got a lot cleaner when I started working in those components to be 356 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,720 able to pull that stuff in fast up. Interesting. One thing that I'm 357 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:22,440 starting to see coming across which I which I'm now wishing we had in React, 358 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:29,720 was slots. So View and Astro and Felt and a few others they've 359 00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:33,839 got slots. So rather than everything just going into this one spot on the 360 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,799 page, you can go, well, everything goes into this one spot. 361 00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,279 But I'm probably explaining slots really badly, but you can go, okay, 362 00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:44,880 well, this is also the stuff that goes in the head out and this 363 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,119 is the stuff that goes in the foot up. So that has just been 364 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,640 really useful for a whole lot of times. And yeah, it's it's a 365 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,960 it's an extension of a component model that just yeah, everything goes in the 366 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,079 right place. I like that. Yeah, And so I had a bit 367 00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:06,519 of a look and I think there are a couple of people going, oh, 368 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:10,920 actually, we'd like to see this and react somehow interesting. Yeah, 369 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,160 because fundamentally it is a web component thing, which is relatively agnostic, right, 370 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,759 like that web components is not nothing to do with any particular browser or 371 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,559 any particular platform. Yeah. But there's a whole lot of stuff that I'm 372 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,400 not delving deep into. So I spend a lot of time working on the 373 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,680 front end. I'm sure some of the backend developers that I work with would 374 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,039 find a whole lot of other similarities and differences, and they'd find a whole 375 00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:41,160 lot of other stuff that they really love about working in each particular flavor of 376 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:45,200 whatever we're using. Sure, and I'm we interrupt for one moment for this 377 00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:51,119 very important message. Hey, Carlin Richard Here. As you may have heard, 378 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,799 NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around the world, and 379 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,440 we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Osle will be me twenty first 380 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,839 through the twenty fifth. Go to NDC Oslo dot com to register. NDC 381 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,960 Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. Go to NDC Copenhagen 382 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:15,799 dot com for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. 383 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,839 The early bird discount for ADC Porto ends July twenty First go to dcporto 384 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,079 dot com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences 385 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:33,400 dot com. And we're back. It's Don Rocks, Richard Campbell. That's 386 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,839 Carl Franklin Hey talking to her friend Amy Kaepernick way over in Perth, other 387 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:47,000 side of the world. Time is literally lunchtime. W So she's looking at 388 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:52,880 me drinking wine for breakfast? What's wrong with me? That is no that 389 00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:56,759 I was actually just admiring. This is the global world that we live in. 390 00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:02,599 Although I've actually I've stopped clarifying. I'm the Perth in Western Australia, 391 00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:04,599 not the Perth in Tasmania, not the Perth in Canada, and not the 392 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:11,160 Perth in Scotland, the Perth Perth, the big one, the way out 393 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,440 west Perth. Yeah we are, I mean we are the Perth Perth. 394 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:19,440 But I just keep discovering more of them, like to just clarify, right, 395 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,839 especially when I'm in the UK where they do know about the Scotland Path. 396 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:29,240 So there was an old time comedian in World War Two time, Bob 397 00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:33,960 Hope he probably know I've heard of him, but he always used to do 398 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:38,000 GI tours and stuff, and he would say, this is Bob here in 399 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:44,519 city and then some joke that rhymes with the city Hope. So I remember 400 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:47,799 him. I'm saying, this is Bob here in Perth to bring you mirth, 401 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,559 Hope. It's not really funny, but it reminded me of Bob. 402 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:56,000 Yeah, I'm old ye. So anyway, Yeah, you'd probably run out 403 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,319 of rhymes for things at some point, right. Yeah. I love the 404 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:05,200 way Ossie's they'll have put the you know, everything ends with E. Let's 405 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,759 have Breckie. You know what's that breakfast? Oh breakfast? Yeah, brecky, 406 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,240 Yeah that is breakfast. However, that is a whole discussion. Um, 407 00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:17,279 some summer ends in I E and summer ends. Yeah, it's double 408 00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:22,440 k y hey, which I only discovered because I've always spelt it double k 409 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:27,200 y and I discovered that my sister actually spells it double k I E. 410 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,640 So I'm not entirely sure how we've come up with different spellings despite growing up 411 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,799 in the same Households overlap into the tech world. Do you say I'm going 412 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:42,079 to get on a ZOOMI No, but none of this explains how they call 413 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,240 McDonald's mackers, Like where did that? Oh, yeah, yeah, I 414 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:50,319 heard that. It's because we like to shorten everything, so we don't have 415 00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:53,160 time to say McDonald's, it's macas, or actually it's come out to be 416 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,240 Mackie D's. Now macas was too long. I think there may be a 417 00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:01,079 Scottish thing the right, remember uneps and daddies. Yeah, in Scotland, 418 00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:08,039 turnips and potatoes, nips and daddies. All of the sling is good fun. 419 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,880 Yeah, let's let's dive back into the topic. I did mention play 420 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,400 right at the top of the show. How are you approaching web testing? 421 00:33:16,559 --> 00:33:22,599 So I spend a lot of time focusing on testing from a front end in 422 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,079 case people haven't already worked out that. I always bring things back to the 423 00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:32,160 front end. Not that testing the back end isn't important, but there's a 424 00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:36,720 whole lot of people very passionate and talking a lot about that, so I 425 00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,039 like to make sure that the front end gets talk a little bit about as 426 00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:45,640 well. So probably, seeing as you've mentioned Playwright, I do use I 427 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,400 have been switching over to using Playwright. I was previously using Cyprus, but 428 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:59,440 I switched to using Playwright. Actually, after speaking with Debbie in Oslo last 429 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,440 year. She has been a great evangelist for it. Yes, well she 430 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:07,319 told me it would be easier and she did not like that was that was 431 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:09,639 basically the only the only I think. I think the reason why she's a 432 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:14,840 good evangelist is because it's it's a really easy sell. You just say it's 433 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,320 easier to use and we go, yeah, okay, I'm on board. 434 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,920 So that is what I've been using. So I use Playwright for UI testing, 435 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,960 so checking does the menu exist? Can you click on things? Can 436 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,639 you go here? Do these things? Are these things on the page and 437 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,519 visible where I expect them to be? Can this form be filled out? 438 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:45,119 Can I do this? So making sure that people can still use the interface 439 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,400 the way that the way that you expect them too. They're expecting to Yeah, 440 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,880 and how I mean always the question is all testing has this problem, 441 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,480 but I found web testing has it worse that any change to a site break 442 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:08,000 a lot of tests. Yeah, so UINE testing is fairly relaxed. We're 443 00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:13,000 not actually caring too much about where things are. It's just that they are 444 00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:19,679 visible on the page and that they can be interacted with, so that look, 445 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,639 if you're breaking that, then you've probably broken something. So those kinds 446 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:30,000 of things are a bit more relaxed. Some of the other testing I do, 447 00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:34,960 though, is visual regression testing, which is kind of it's kind of 448 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,639 like a GIT dip, but for visual So they take a screenshot of what 449 00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:42,119 it looks like and then you make a code change, and they take a 450 00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:49,480 screenshot and they compare pixel for pixel, and that one is a lot more 451 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:53,559 likely to fail tests whenever you make a code change, because there's because they're 452 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:58,400 comparing pixel for pixel. There's so many things like sometimes an image might not 453 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:04,719 have loaded in as well, if content has changed, it will fail. 454 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,519 There's so many other things, and so that one is a lot fussier about 455 00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:20,880 what has actually happened then then UINE testing. So they both serve different purposes. 456 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:22,400 So when I teach it, I sort of go, we've got visual 457 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,559 regression testing. And for a lot of big companies, this is what they're 458 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,199 doing because they need to know that everything is pixel perfect. They need to 459 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:36,280 know that everything still sits where where it should do. Whereas then UIN testing 460 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,440 suits a lot more people. They go, I don't actually really need to 461 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,400 know that the header is still exactly fifty five pixels high. I just need 462 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,480 to know that it's there and people can click on the stuff in it great, 463 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:50,000 that it's changed or changed or not. Yeah, you know there's two 464 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:53,440 things that come to mind. Weren't because I've used to verify a bit Snapchat 465 00:36:53,519 --> 00:37:00,320 testing Simon Crab's great tool Verify. Yeah. The thing that I quickly earned 466 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,880 is, you know, it's not the end of the world when the test 467 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,719 breaks. It's just another it's just another way to develop. It's reactive rather 468 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,039 than proactive. And developers don't like reacting because the reactions that things we react 469 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:20,400 to are exceptions, you know, bugs, and so the natural predilection is 470 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,639 for us to think, oh that that test broke, Oh I did something 471 00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:27,000 wrong, or something's wrong right, But it's just another way to develop. 472 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,800 You just change the test, you figure out what you need to exclude, 473 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,239 and you're done and you just move on. Yeah, and so I for 474 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:38,440 doing things like visual regression testing that those tests. Those tests fail a lot 475 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,760 because you go through and you make a change to the CSS and it fails, 476 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,280 and it will fail, and you go through and have a look and 477 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,039 you go, yes, this is what I expected. I change that I 478 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:52,800 know it should look that way sorry, so that one is definitely getting used 479 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,159 to doing that. But I've also found that the visual regression testing is really 480 00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,519 great for times when i'd be doing code cleanups and just going through and refactoring 481 00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:06,039 things. I am able to be so much more ruthless in going through and 482 00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,920 clearing a whole lot of things up because then I run the visual regression tests 483 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:15,360 regularly, and if it fails, if it tells me that something has changed, 484 00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:20,360 then I know that I've deleted code that I was actually using. That's 485 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,599 really useful for being able to go through and do that, but at the 486 00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:28,239 minimum, these failed tests are telling you where to look to see that these 487 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,320 changes that have been made were intended right. Yes, and for a lot 488 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,800 of these, so like for visual regression tests, if you're integrating this with 489 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:44,159 your codebase, you've probably got tens, if not hundreds of screenshots being taken, 490 00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:45,920 so you're not having to go through and tech everywhere. We look. 491 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:52,159 We took two hundred screenshots and we compared them, and these three are ones 492 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:57,159 that have changed, So that definitely makes it much easier. On top of 493 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,000 UI testing and visual regression testing, my other thing that I focus on which 494 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:08,079 I talk about my talks and my workshop is accessibility testing. Yeah. Yes, 495 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,559 this is one of the other things that I'm very passionate about and just 496 00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:19,280 going through and making sure that we're testing things. And the thing is a 497 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:28,320 lot of we talk a bit about manual and automated accessibility testing, and a 498 00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:30,719 lot of it does have to be done manually, and there is a fair 499 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:37,119 bite of accessibility testing where if you're doing it properly, we still recommend hiring 500 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:40,039 somebody who knows what they're doing. Like screen reader testing, we can go 501 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:43,920 through and play around with screen readers, and I think it's really important for 502 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:49,480 developers to play around with screen readers and to actually understand what people are hearing 503 00:39:49,639 --> 00:39:53,800 when they're navigating through an application. But if you've ever seen somebody using a 504 00:39:53,880 --> 00:40:00,639 screen reader who uses it every day, they use it very differently to how 505 00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:07,559 we use it occasionally, so it's really important to do that properly. However, 506 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:09,719 a lot of people take that with well, I can't do it properly, 507 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:16,280 therefore I'm not going to do it at all, which is not the 508 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,840 case. Every little thing that they do makes a huge difference, and so 509 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:24,400 like running automated tests. There's only so much that they can catch, but 510 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,840 a lot of that is literally just linting and validating the college, making sure 511 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,800 that you've actually done things, and so that makes a huge difference, and 512 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,039 then going through and manually testing things, going through and using it. Can 513 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:40,280 you use it with a keyboard? How does it sound with a screen reader? 514 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,400 That kind of thing. That kind of thing is actually really useful for 515 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:52,239 us as developers to understand a little bit more about how people are using what 516 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,920 it is that we build. We know how we use it. A lot 517 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,599 of us are likely using a mouse the keyboard to navigate through things, but 518 00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:07,880 it just helps to understand how people are actually navigating around things and what the 519 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:15,519 effects of how we're building on other people. Because there's also there's Microsoft has 520 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:21,800 a really great graphic where they go through and talk about the various different types 521 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,440 of people that are affected by whether or not our stuff is accessible. Because 522 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,679 we often think of permanent impairments, so somebody who's missing a limb, somebody 523 00:41:32,679 --> 00:41:38,159 who's blind, somebody who's death, but there are permanent, temporary, and 524 00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:45,159 situational impairments. So if you ever tried to join a zoom call or listen 525 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:49,960 to a video and you're in a really loud place and you can't hear what's 526 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:58,159 going on. That's a situational hearing impairment. Parent who's holding a child, 527 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:05,719 they only have access to one hand, which is a situational motion impairment. 528 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,920 Yeah. So there's a whole lot of other people that are affected, and 529 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:15,519 it's often not until we become one of those people, whether permanent, temporary, 530 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:19,440 or situational impairment, that we realized how much we benefit from it. 531 00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:22,639 So I had a friend who had a really bad ear infection and she couldn't 532 00:42:22,679 --> 00:42:29,000 hear anything out of one ear for a week or so, and so having 533 00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:35,880 captions on things made a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah, and just no 534 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,800 substitute for once in a while using captions or using any of those things that 535 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,880 seeing how well they work and don't work. Yeah. We did a show 536 00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:50,400 last year it was Courtney Hitman and specifically got into screen readers extensively with her 537 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,920 and a found out several different flavors. You know, it depends on the 538 00:42:53,960 --> 00:43:00,000 hardware, and there's only there's sort of a standard set of things you can 539 00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:06,360 do, and it's it's in the W three. The W three standards show 540 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,920 pretty clearly this is the reliable part of it, and there are good testing 541 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,480 tools will just tell you this will work with a screen reader, this won't. 542 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,440 Yeah, And there's a lot of great tables that people are putting together 543 00:43:16,679 --> 00:43:24,719 now which go through various different various different approaches to building things or various different 544 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,440 pat CML tags. They compare them to all the screen readers and will then 545 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,920 do a transcript of what so if you don't have access to because I can 546 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,440 test on a couple of different screen readers, but then there's a bunch of 547 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,119 Mac ones that I can't test on right, and testing on mobile, and 548 00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:44,760 so being able to get these tables where you can actually see okay, this 549 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:50,079 is how it gets read out in every different screen reader is really useful. 550 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,360 You know, I noticed a mass done that at least the client that I'm 551 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,639 using it on the web client too. When you post an image, a 552 00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,679 little thing pumps over the image that says, describe this image for people who 553 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:06,639 can't see it. And even though that you might describe what's going on in 554 00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:10,360 the picture a little bit in your text, oftentimes I find that, no, 555 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,519 it's not descriptive enough. You have to be pretty explicit about it. 556 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:23,320 But that got me thinking about some of the AI tools and tools that exist 557 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:29,039 out there that can read images in real time and sort of explain them. 558 00:44:29,519 --> 00:44:36,400 And I wonder if screen readers are that sophisticated these days, so that you 559 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,639 know, when you're browsing a site and it comes across a picture, it 560 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:46,800 could explain in English what is in that picture. I'm not an expert on 561 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,199 this point, so I would I don't think it can. However, I 562 00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:58,119 could be wrong. A lot of it comes down to though, because there's 563 00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:00,760 been a lot of times that I've gone I'd be really great if I could 564 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:06,559 just auto generate a text alternative for this image so that I don't have to 565 00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:12,400 go through and write it. But a lot of the time what those technologies 566 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,239 are missing is it's not actually what's in the picture? What is the intent 567 00:45:16,639 --> 00:45:22,320 behind why I've added this picture? And a lot of blog posts talk about 568 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:29,480 describing also the emotion behind the picture. Now they're probably different, like if 569 00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:32,639 you if you've included a graphic of like a chart or something, there's probably 570 00:45:32,679 --> 00:45:37,440 not too much emotion behind a profit and lost chart from the last twelve months. 571 00:45:37,679 --> 00:45:42,960 I mean, well, actually there might be, but actually the intent 572 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,320 and why it's there. So it's not just what's in the picture, it's 573 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,280 what's in the picture that you've put it in there for. And so I 574 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:59,400 think until until we've got ais that are able to understand why we've put it 575 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:06,599 there and to interpret the emotion behind the image as well, which I think 576 00:46:06,599 --> 00:46:12,440 we all know what happens when computers learn emotion. Were that much closer to 577 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:22,159 the robot uprising, the automated tools definitely help, but for now, nothing 578 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,000 yet, nothing can really beat actually sitting down and doing abruptly. And so 579 00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:30,000 it's one of the things that I do in my workshop is getting people to 580 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:37,360 go through and write alternative text for images and what's the intent behind it? 581 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:44,159 Describe this, how would you describe this image to somebody over the phone, 582 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:50,320 and so actually sitting down and going through and writing writing that description. What 583 00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:53,159 is it that they're seeing? And a lot of it comes down to as 584 00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:57,519 well. There's been a lot of people that have said that, you know, 585 00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:00,039 they come across images where there's no text because people go, well, 586 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:05,800 they're decorative. And I've had to chat with a few people and they've said 587 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,599 that they'd actually like to know, like if people have logos and headers, 588 00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:12,639 a lot of people will not add alt text if they just all they just 589 00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:15,679 say this is the logo for X company. They actually want to know what 590 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,000 this is. People have spent a whole lot of time. Yeah, people 591 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,880 have spent time building their logos and how it reflects their company. They actually 592 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:29,960 want to know what it looks like and and describe it to somebody. So 593 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:36,679 it really does make it. And I'm a little bit but I don't always 594 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,159 do this myself. I'm trying to get better, but I do often have 595 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:45,039 things flagging at me because I haven't given a text alternative. But yeah, 596 00:47:45,159 --> 00:47:50,079 it's it really does make a difference to go through and actually describe because if 597 00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:54,880 an image, if you don't bother to describe an image for someone who can't 598 00:47:54,880 --> 00:48:00,639 see it, then image probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Yeah, 599 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:04,000 it's an interesting point, right that this is all part and parcel of 600 00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:10,440 making a real usable website is recognizing data image may not helping anyone. Yeah, 601 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,119 it's an interesting add to all of that that diversity gives a sort of 602 00:48:15,199 --> 00:48:23,679 better spectrum for building something something effective. Yeah, what else do we need 603 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:29,039 to think about for the modern front end. We've talked about testing, we've 604 00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:35,039 talked about accessibility, we've talked about keeping code as simple as possible. So 605 00:48:35,079 --> 00:48:39,960 probably the last thing, which is mainly tying the testing altogether and automating it, 606 00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:45,280 because as we've established, if something isn't automated, there's a decent chance 607 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,920 that we're not going to do it. So going through and running automated testing 608 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,719 pipelines, which a lot of people already have in the application, and he 609 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,440 briefly talked about unit testing at the start of the episode, and a lot 610 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:06,199 of them are automated in the ci CD tools. You've got GitHub actions or 611 00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:08,880 as a debops or all of the other flavors of things. Are going through 612 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:15,280 and running unit testing. But I've worked on projects where the only way that 613 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:21,199 I could check I submit a PR for some front end changes, and the 614 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,320 only way that I can actually see what that looks like is to verge it 615 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,960 into the main branch and see how that builds out on the front end. 616 00:49:30,559 --> 00:49:35,000 So we basically have to go, yes, I'm sure this code is good, 617 00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:38,199 let's merge it in and then just hope that I haven't broken anything when 618 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:44,599 it comes through. Yeah, a lot of it involves actually adding in that 619 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,239 automated testing pipeline as well, which a lot of the problem behind that is 620 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,000 you need a live URL that you can run these tests on, so you 621 00:49:55,039 --> 00:50:00,000 actually need to have a deployed version near the website that you can go through 622 00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:05,880 and run these tests on. So part of when I teach this is going 623 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,320 through and setting up a automated testing pipeline for front end tests with a live 624 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,119 version of the website on Gutharb action. So we go through, we run 625 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,800 when you submit a PR, it triggers to build what that would look like, 626 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,679 and you can get a staging RL, and then going through and running 627 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:30,239 those tests against that staging r and setting it all up so that only if 628 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:35,159 those tests pass are you allowed to merge the changes in. So the same 629 00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:39,320 as a lot of pipelines are already doing for their unit testing, but actually 630 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,800 making sure that we're going through and running that and that staging r L is 631 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,639 often the sticker for a lot of projects is if people's depending on where people 632 00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:52,960 are hosting it and how it's set up, whether or not they're able to 633 00:50:53,000 --> 00:51:00,039 build a staging version of it. Which there's a lot of products I use 634 00:51:01,039 --> 00:51:07,280 Netlifi, which is really amazing. They do what's called a deploy preview, 635 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,719 and so yeah, I can get a unique I think I can pretty much 636 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:19,480 get a unique UIL for every single commit I have on my website. Every 637 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,719 single code commit has its own version of this is exactly how the website looked 638 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,880 at that right time, and so making sure that we're actually setting that up 639 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:32,280 so that people can test things properly before the codes getting merged down. Yeah, 640 00:51:32,519 --> 00:51:36,239 I mean, isn't this something that's just built into Azure two with the 641 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,440 different slots for app service and things. Do you need a separate tool to 642 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:45,480 really do this? Well, not necessarily so Yeah, it's definitely the features 643 00:51:45,519 --> 00:51:47,639 definitely there in a whole lot of places. It's just whether people have actually 644 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,719 set that up and so learning to use it. Yeah, people are learning 645 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,559 to use it and setting it up. They're just often not thinking about that. 646 00:51:57,679 --> 00:52:01,280 People are just used to running things locally on their computer or their focus. 647 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,480 And again a lot of this comes back to people are thinking about the 648 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,559 back end tests, but not so much the front end test, so they 649 00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:13,920 haven't sort of had a thought about doing that. So it's it's just about 650 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:19,599 having a look at how things can be done and getting through and setting them 651 00:52:19,679 --> 00:52:22,360 up. And there are a lot of There are a lot of different features 652 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,599 where you can go through. No as your static web apps has got some 653 00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:32,159 really great setting up different versions. There's an AWS forget the name of it 654 00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:38,159 now. AWS has a really great app hosting product that does a lot of 655 00:52:38,159 --> 00:52:40,920 this as well. There's a lot of great options out there. I just 656 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:47,400 learned that you can deploy a static website in an AWS bucket and get an 657 00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:52,119 HTTPS linked to it and serve it right out of the bucket, which is 658 00:52:52,159 --> 00:53:00,519 probably the cheapest way to serve outside on the planet. I would about that 659 00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:06,039 with. You can do that on netlify and it's free. Okay, so 660 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,480 yeah, you can't get much unless you can find something cheaper than Yeah, 661 00:53:08,599 --> 00:53:13,920 unless you can find someone that will pay you for then to host your website. 662 00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,199 Sure for testing purposes. Yeah, okay, that's something. Yeah, 663 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,599 but I mean you make the point, right, Look, spend a little 664 00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:27,199 time, look at a few of these tools and create you create this equivalent 665 00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,280 to production environment. It's not production, so production is still running while you're 666 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:37,039 really exercising the update to the site. Yeah, and like it may not 667 00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:39,039 even be looking at these tools, just looking at the tool you've got, 668 00:53:39,079 --> 00:53:43,880 and is there a way that you can do things like you've probably currently got 669 00:53:44,199 --> 00:53:46,880 Um, I know I've I've worked with teams where they've got a production and 670 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:52,559 a WRL, So it's just about setting up other staging rls. So in 671 00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:55,920 between those two, Yeah, something in between, or if you've got automated 672 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,199 DNAs, whether or not you can set up or whether you just have a 673 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,239 couple of staging domains that you can just flick through which one you're using. 674 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,400 Brief you've got a couple of prs open, so just going through and probably 675 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,239 first looking at the tool you've got, how can you do it there? 676 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,559 And yeah, the then setting it up and you've already got the build working 677 00:54:17,559 --> 00:54:22,280 in that tool as well, so it's just about adding an initial step to 678 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,559 there. We were building sites that were high enough load that performance profiling was 679 00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:29,599 important. Yeah, not so much that you had to have the same performance 680 00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:32,119 as the last version, but that we had to know yeah, because if 681 00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:35,840 it was going to any more resources, we could allocate them, but we 682 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,480 need to know, yeah, and so that's why it's really important to make 683 00:54:39,519 --> 00:54:44,639 sure that we're running these things on the same service where we're running the production 684 00:54:44,679 --> 00:54:47,760 website. Because yeah, okay, it's great you can run the website locally 685 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,840 on your computer, but that's not the same as running it on the website. 686 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,800 And we've we've all heard you know, well, you know it works 687 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,159 on Dave's computer. Why isn't it working in production Dave? Yeah, it's 688 00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:05,599 always Dave's Dave. It's yeah, Dave. I don't know. I don't 689 00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:10,639 know why Dave always gets called out in my examples such a benign Yeah, 690 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,400 we could be angry, you know, it's just the dude. Yeah. 691 00:55:15,519 --> 00:55:20,039 I've got a blog post as well on how I set up the automated build 692 00:55:20,159 --> 00:55:23,920 tests process and then build only if her passes. So if anyone wanted to 693 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,360 find a little bit more so, that's running on gid have actions too, 694 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:32,840 if any Um, speaking of links you mentioned, was it Netify or net 695 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,159 left fi because they're two different things. Net leff I n E T l 696 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,719 I F Y got it? Yeah, okay, good, So what's next 697 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,480 for you? Amy? What's in your inbox? Um? A whole bunch 698 00:55:46,519 --> 00:55:52,280 of emails because I haven't got to them, literally literally in my inbox, 699 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,480 although I'm pretty sure ninety percent of them is spam. I think there's at 700 00:55:55,519 --> 00:56:00,480 least three saying I won the lottery or someone died and left me million dollars. 701 00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:02,679 Okay, and who's the doggs? They just walked in behind you. 702 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:12,000 That's that's my dog remy short for Ramus. I think he's decided. It's 703 00:56:12,039 --> 00:56:15,119 the point in the morning where he wants to go outside, but he can 704 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:20,119 very a little bit longer. Well, we're just about done, so yeah, 705 00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:22,360 thank you so much. He can wait. Yeah, So, thank 706 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,159 you so much for spending this time with us, and it's always good to 707 00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:30,519 talk to you. Thanks was it was good to chat with you both as 708 00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:35,159 well. And I'm I'm sure I will see you in person at some point 709 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,119 this year at the various events all over the world. Probably one of those 710 00:56:39,159 --> 00:56:43,320 events. Yeah, all right, thanks, yeah, and we'll talk to 711 00:56:43,360 --> 00:57:08,639 you next time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you 712 00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:15,000 by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video 713 00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:20,000 and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course 714 00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:25,199 in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt n 715 00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:31,320 et r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 716 00:57:31,639 --> 00:57:36,760 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded 717 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,719 in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 718 00:57:39,880 --> 00:58:01,000 They keep us in business. Now go write some code CE next time. Recorded b