1 00:00:05,879 --> 00:00:09,080 What's up, guys. Matt Adele here and this is Gary Leland and you're 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:14,519 listening to episode one thirty four of the Crypto Cousins podcast. Fat your interest 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:20,559 in bitcoin and cryptocurrencies by joining Hall of Fame podcaster Gary Leland on the Crypto 4 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,239 Cousins podcast. And remember we are all cousins in the world of crypto. 5 00:00:26,879 --> 00:00:31,879 This week's price of bitcoin six thousand, eight hundred and fifty two dollars. 6 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:36,359 That's down seventy four dollars, are one point one percent over the past seven 7 00:00:36,439 --> 00:00:41,399 days. How how howardy? Welcome to the show, Matt, second time 8 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,479 here, Very happy to be here. A little bit different conditions this time 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,920 than the last time, though, right, yeah, tell me about it. 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,439 It's pretty unreal, this whole situation right now, it's really unreal. 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,799 We were just talking before the show started about that, and I said, 12 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,960 let's get on the show and talk about this. If we can talk about 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,039 all this, I think it's crazy, and I agree with you. I 14 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:03,359 don't think people have any concept of what's going to be coming down the pike. 15 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:08,799 People just think we can just restart the economy when we have twenty million 16 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:14,959 people unemployed right now and small business owners around around the world. You know, 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,439 it's not even just a domestic issue. This is a global issue that 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,920 are just in pain right now. They're getting absolutely destroyed, not bringing in 19 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,599 any income. And I really worry about the knock on effects that will happen 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,239 down the line because of this thing. I think there's gonna be so many 21 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,000 effects, not only I mean, you can just it's just like a house 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,400 of cards are a domino. Like when you set those dominoes up, you 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,000 knock one down, and the next one goes, and next one's goes. 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:47,159 You know, for instance, I'm a small business, but my sales tax 25 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:52,319 to the state this month should have been about five thousand dollars. They're gonna 26 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:56,280 make about five hundred dollars, you know, off of me. So and 27 00:01:56,319 --> 00:01:59,239 then if you think that I'm a small business, so you take every business 28 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,959 in the state of Texas and if they got that kind of downward trend. 29 00:02:02,239 --> 00:02:06,560 So the state now is running out of money. I'm going to talk about 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,599 the people. I'm talking about a state who's going to try to support people. 31 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,039 They don't have any money, so and they can't print money like federal 32 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,960 government can. So I don't know how bad effects. It seems like that 33 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,360 would affect it even more than the federal government to me, if you don't 34 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,120 have any money. Yeah, I mean. One of the things I mean 35 00:02:22,159 --> 00:02:25,800 I've been talking about on our podcast a lot is a lot of people look 36 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,879 at this crisis from the perspective that we had a super healthy economy before. 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,080 But I'm of the belief that it was a house of cards to begin with. 38 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,360 I agree with you completely, Yes, So we end up in a 39 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:43,800 situation here where a lot of these small businesses are super leveraged, their landlords 40 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,639 are super leveraged, the states are super leveraged. And then when you just 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,120 you just stop all income generation there for a couple of months, the whole 42 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,960 thing just goes up in flames. Like how do you? How do you 43 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,719 recover from that? And hopefully we can recover, but it's going to be 44 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:05,439 painful. There's there's no easy way out here, even though the stock market 45 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:09,240 is like completely disconnected from that reality. Yes, I'm just sitting here riding 46 00:03:09,319 --> 00:03:13,520 and we have because we didn't pull out early enough, so we're trying to 47 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:16,400 ride it back up you know before, and have a cutoff. Every day 48 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,520 we change our get out number as it goes up, so we can benefit 49 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:23,280 this time, because I believe we did. I think it's all going to 50 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:27,520 fall apart. I'm in a good situation, I mean really compared to most 51 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,000 people. I'm sixty five. I could just be retired, but I'm not 52 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,360 because I enjoy working. But I got Medicare, I got no bills, 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,120 my house is paid for, I got money in the bank. So I'm 54 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:42,039 an okay situation. I'm not one. That's why I don't do much whining. 55 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,000 But there are a lot of people like my daughter, for instance, 56 00:03:45,319 --> 00:03:50,360 who's young, bought her first house a year ago. Now what happens there? 57 00:03:50,599 --> 00:03:53,479 And is this housing market? All these people in her situation are a 58 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,039 lot of I'm going to start selling their houses and no one's buying houses. 59 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:01,199 So now she's paying for a house that's worth half of what it's worth, 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,800 you know. So she's going, Wow, I love this house, but 61 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,759 I'm paying for so many dollar house. It's only worth so much money. 62 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,639 I just have to walk away, I mean. And what I mean that's 63 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,759 kind of like that domino effect again. Yeah, the last time with a 64 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:18,160 housing market, what that did by itself? Yeah, and this time it's 65 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,120 not just the housing market. I come from a similar perspective as you. 66 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,480 You know, I am much younger than you, but I've always been very 67 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,480 conservative. I have savings. I said to you before we start recording that, 68 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,560 all things considered, I'm good, you know so, But I really 69 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,680 do feel for people. There's a lot of people that we're living paycheck to 70 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,360 paycheck that are in a heavy amount of debt just about their first home. 71 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,000 You have to wonder, you know, especially the young people. I'm from 72 00:04:46,079 --> 00:04:48,680 New York. I see people who have been hustling for eight years, nine 73 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:54,639 years, they still have debt, they have no savings. They've gone job 74 00:04:54,759 --> 00:04:57,959 from job to jobs, slowly moving up the ladder, you know, finally 75 00:04:57,959 --> 00:05:00,199 getting a decent income, and then the rug was pulled right out from under 76 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,639 them. That has to trigger a perspective change, right, Like, what 77 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,959 was the point? Why was I doing this whole rat race to begin with? 78 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,040 What do I have to show for it? And now he's kind of 79 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,800 going to have to start over? Too possible. You're maybe who worked for 80 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,319 doesn't hire you back, maybe they can't be that size, maybe they go 81 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,040 out of business, and now you're starting over from scratch. You know, 82 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:24,600 I talked to I interviewed the Bitcoin Rabbi last night, and he was real 83 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,720 excited that he had talked to you recently, I think, and he was 84 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:31,519 a nice guy. Great dude. Are you surprised, because I kind of 85 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:35,720 am, that we're not seeing more crime and I'm not saying that in a 86 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:39,839 negative way, or is it being hidden to us? Because I would think 87 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,199 personally, if I was one of those people who had like one paycheck's worth 88 00:05:45,199 --> 00:05:48,279 the savings and I had three kids and a wife I was supporting, and 89 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:51,600 I hadn't made any money in three weeks, I would have to go steal 90 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,879 some food. I couldn't let my kids starve. I mean, you know, 91 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,120 if I couldn't find any food in any other way, I would go 92 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,319 steal it. I mean, I'm just being honest. I'm not a thief, 93 00:05:59,319 --> 00:06:01,720 but I'm not gonna let kids starve. So are you surprised we're not 94 00:06:01,759 --> 00:06:04,959 seeing more of that? Or do you think there is that and we're just 95 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:09,600 not being shown that because you're scared. It's a contagious thing that if people 96 00:06:09,639 --> 00:06:12,439 see it, they get the idea. I think if there was heavy crime, 97 00:06:12,439 --> 00:06:15,600 we would see it. Just because of social media and whatnot. It's 98 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,920 like it's pretty hard to keep a lid on that kind of thing nowadays. 99 00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:24,800 I think it's it's probably one of the few silver linings of the crisis is 100 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,800 that people seem to be coming together and like helping their neighbors. Uh, 101 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:32,560 you know, we've seen in past crises. You know, New York is 102 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,199 a super dense city when they had the power outages in the eighties, like, 103 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,040 it just devolved super quick. To not see that right now, to 104 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,959 not see mass vandalism, theft, breaking and entering and stuff in the big 105 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,160 cities is definitely, I mean, that's definitely a silver lining. You can't 106 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:55,199 say otherwise. But the question is is it because it's just early in the 107 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,439 crisis, it could be, right, like, maybe that's still to come. 108 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,480 Hopefully it's not. Let's see how, you know, how does this 109 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,040 unfold going forward? When does when do people start getting back to work? 110 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:10,199 Do people actually get hired for the jobs that they lost? Do we see 111 00:07:10,319 --> 00:07:15,399 mass downsizing from companies? What does the Fed's reaction here actually does it actually 112 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:19,360 help? Did do these twelve hundred dollars payments they're sending out to people actually 113 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,480 you know, help bridge that gap? Is that enough doesn't matter. I 114 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,319 don't know, it should be interesting to play out. You know, hopefully 115 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,560 we don't see mass crime, but I mean it's on the table, right 116 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,360 Yeah, I mean it's something I've seen mass crime for reasons less than what's 117 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,720 going on right now exactly. You know, So I have to agree with 118 00:07:38,759 --> 00:07:41,360 you. It is this silver lining, And if it was going to happen 119 00:07:41,439 --> 00:07:44,600 somewhere, I would think the place that it would we would be seeing it 120 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,639 is in New York, Chicago, all the big cities, Detroit, amount 121 00:07:47,639 --> 00:07:53,720 of people there in a small area. And then a lot of the police 122 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:57,639 are they have they're down too because they're sick too. Yes, like everybody 123 00:07:57,639 --> 00:08:00,439 else. I have a buddy who works around MPD. They of than one 124 00:08:00,519 --> 00:08:05,000 Maskis m really taking care of them? Absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, I want 125 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,439 to ask you a couple of questions about rabbit Hole recap. How long y'all 126 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,720 been doing that? Now? I want to change subjects here because you know, 127 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:13,079 it seems like I've just been the content of my show for the last 128 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:16,279 three of our episodes. That's all that's been talked about late. Yeah, 129 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,439 yeah, I know, that's all I see. And help themselves, that's 130 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:20,439 all I see. And I wasn't going to talk about it. Next thing, 131 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,199 I know, you know we're talking about it. So so let's switch 132 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,519 a rabbit hole recap though. How long have you already been doing that together? 133 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,360 I think it's two years in August. I'm not sure. It both 134 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:39,399 feels like it was yesterday and also that it's been like a decade shows. 135 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,039 I love that show. I love it when you two get together and talk. 136 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,440 You thank you. You talk about stuff that I'm interested in. I 137 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,720 mean, I think is why I like it so much. And one of 138 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:54,000 the things that you've been really on is coin join, mixing coins and all 139 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:58,639 this, and I'm not sure, I'm really I'm getting the importance of all 140 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,600 of this, And so that was another one of the reason I wanted to 141 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,279 bring you on, so I could figure out and people who may would be 142 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,279 like me and don't understand why you think that's so important. You can tell 143 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,480 us, you know, the scoop here, give me a rundown on what's 144 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,080 so important about this? If I get some bitcoin, do anything with him 145 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,440 beside put him in my wallet. You know, it's a bigger issue than 146 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:24,399 just bitcoin. With the rise of technology, we've seen privacy get trampled on 147 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:30,039 on a massive scale. Like governments now are able to mobilize their efforts in 148 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,000 a way that we've never seen before. Individuals are able to mobilize in an 149 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,000 unprecedented way as well, but governments also have that power, and even more 150 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,600 so because they're you know, the these central behemence, these big organizations. 151 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:50,480 So the question really becomes do you trust the people in charge? And in 152 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:54,639 America maybe that's an open question for people, but I think well for most 153 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:58,519 people, I don't think they would trust, you know, the Chinese government 154 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:03,519 or the Russian So the issue is if we let our privacy get overrun here, 155 00:10:03,919 --> 00:10:07,679 if we let them easily track every every location you've been to, every 156 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,720 single payment you've made, every single message you've sent, and the wrong people 157 00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:16,240 get that power is going to be really hard to come back from that. 158 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,399 The ability for the masses to be controlled by a small few, it's never 159 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,039 been in this state before in human history, I would say. And so 160 00:10:24,399 --> 00:10:28,919 right now, at least with money, we have cash, right, cash 161 00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:33,559 is a very private to use cash, right, But I see a world 162 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:39,080 where cash goes away with there's governments around the world have been trying to restrict 163 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:43,159 cash usage, and then not only that, individuals want to move to digital. 164 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:48,639 You know, my peers preferred to spend with a Venmo back and forth 165 00:10:48,759 --> 00:10:52,000 or or a cash app rather than actually use cash. A lot of my 166 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:58,200 peers never never even interact with cash. They have their their credit cards and 167 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,039 they have their payment apps and that's what they use, and those are all 168 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,799 tracked. So if we don't have a private alternative, I think we're going 169 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,480 to have major issues. So this is all tangential to me. You know, 170 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,840 it's it's payments, it's the ability to move around privately, it's the 171 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,799 ability to communicate privately. And then on the other side with communication, this 172 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,799 crisis has highlighted it to the extreme right because we've always been able to for 173 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,919 the most part, been able to communicate privately in person. Right, we 174 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,919 meet up in person, we have a drink, We're able to communicate privately. 175 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,600 But our communications are slowly moving more and more digitally, and this crisis 176 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:37,279 everything's moved digitally. You know, we have people having happy hours on Zoom. 177 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,519 So if you're not able to communicate privately, if all that's able to 178 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:46,519 get hoovered up and put in a database and searched through and used against you 179 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,120 at will. That's going to have some really chilling effects on freedom just in 180 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:54,039 general. Well, yeah, one of the things you said there is you 181 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,360 think that the paper money or money is going to disappear as we know it 182 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,679 now. What leads you to believe I've been seeing that a lot lately, 183 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:05,159 hearing a lot of people say that. What makes you think that's any more 184 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,519 of a reality now than it was five years ago. Well, because the 185 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,120 world is increasingly digital, you know, like I said, the younger people 186 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:18,000 aren't really using cash, so that's already it's the market is almost dictating it. 187 00:12:18,039 --> 00:12:20,960 But then at the same time you do have you do it, like 188 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,919 in America has been a little bit better about it compared to other places in 189 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,600 the world, but we see in like Europe, they're doing more and more 190 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:33,080 restrictions on how large of a cash purchase you can make. If you try 191 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,039 and remove a large amount of cash from a bank account, or deposit a 192 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,519 large amount of cash in a bank account, it arises suspicion. Well, 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:45,600 right now, I know three people I've talked to in different part of the 194 00:12:45,639 --> 00:12:48,799 countries that have gone to the bank to get large amount of moneys and we're 195 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,080 told they couldn't have that much money, you know, exactly, One place 196 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:56,159 was twenty five hundred dollars was the most he could get. One place was 197 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,200 thirty five hundred. And this is like east coast, west coast, since 198 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,720 center of the country and another part of the country was like so right, 199 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,080 even though they all went in to get like ten thousand or so, that's 200 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,440 all they could get, exactly. And a lot of times if you take 201 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,840 out a larger amount of money, they ask you what are you using the 202 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:18,840 money for? They have you fill out this activity report so they can submit 203 00:13:18,879 --> 00:13:22,600 it. It becomes a suspicious transaction just the act of using it. And 204 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,120 then I have friends that are in Europe that they say, if they try 205 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,240 it, cash isn't officially banned in their country or whatever, but they try 206 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:33,360 and spend with cash the merchant wherever they are, the merchant thinks it's suspicious. 207 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,279 They don't They wonder, why is this person paying with cash when they 208 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,679 could just use their card to get some points. It's automatically suspicious because you're 209 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,639 you're not wanting to be tracked. Yeah, the act of privacy is suspicious 210 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:48,720 itself. You have a fed coin or something is that what you're saying. 211 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,320 You don't even need a chain or like a blockchain or anything. They could 212 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,720 just you know, but they have trillions of dollars of stimulus spending. Yeah, 213 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:03,399 they could just spend a half billion dollars on an app, you know, 214 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,159 and you plug in your Social Security number and then like that's your there's 215 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:09,960 your money, that's your money app, you know, and you can send 216 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,039 money to people and moving between banks and stuff like that. It wouldn't even 217 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,720 need a bank, I wouldn't think. Then you just they see how much 218 00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:18,799 having the bank and it gets on your app. Our government is in a 219 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:22,799 lot of ways bought and paid for with lobbyists, you know, being paid 220 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,519 by corporations, and then the corporate and then and then the lobbyists going after 221 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:31,080 the politicians and everyone donating to them and whatnot. So I don't think banks 222 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,279 are going anywhere because of that. Even though they might not be necessary in 223 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:39,279 that situation, they'll make sure that they got a hand in that pie as 224 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,240 well. Yeah, they're they're not wanting to I D lose that profitable income 225 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:46,200 they're making. There's too many rich people making too much money, I guess 226 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,759 on that end, so I see what you're saying that I was thinking when 227 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:50,879 you first were saying that if some type of fitcoin WHI, You're right, 228 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:56,279 it's not needed at all. You just make a government version of EMO and 229 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,399 there it is, There it is, and they know every dollar you spend. 230 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,519 It's really stops counterfeiting and it stops people from doing events that they don't 231 00:15:05,519 --> 00:15:09,279 pay taxes on too. Right, Well, that's what they'll use as the 232 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,960 excuse. They'll use the excuse of tax evasion, crime, counterfeiting, protect 233 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:20,120 the children. These are the common appeals, appeals to emotion that they use 234 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,720 in these in these situations. But like I said, like just you know, 235 00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:28,320 even if you love love our government currently, it can take a turn 236 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,840 at any moment. You know, at any moment you could have you could 237 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,039 have people in charge that maybe you don't trust, that don't have your best 238 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,399 interests at heart. And do you want them to have that kind of control 239 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,240 over you? So do you want them to have that kind of control over 240 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:46,000 the masses. Well, let's go back to mixing and stuff. I understand 241 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,759 now what your reason is, how does this help in that area? So 242 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,759 with bitcoin, I think it's it's more of a growing pain issue. But 243 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:58,240 we have this issue where we have these large fiat on ramps and off ramps, 244 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,600 and they're all regular related and they all have KYC super strict KYC link 245 00:16:03,639 --> 00:16:07,279 everything to your name, your address, or social security number, everything, 246 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,159 and they have data sharing agreements where they're sharing all this information among each other. 247 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,759 They're not necessarily even protecting it that well. You know, we saw 248 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,480 with the Equifax hack where almost every adult American had their financial information compromise. 249 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,919 There's no opt in there. You're automatically in Equifax's database. You have no 250 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,679 choice, You're just automatically in there. It's part of the system. It's 251 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:33,440 built into the whole system. So this information can get leaked, this information 252 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:37,519 can get voluntarily shared, it can get bought. And with that information, 253 00:16:38,039 --> 00:16:42,960 they're able to track all your bitcoin transactions, how much bitcoin you have, 254 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,600 and every transaction you make in the future and also potentially in the past if 255 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:52,679 you commingle it with past transactions. And because because bitcoin's a public ledger, 256 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,720 this is all transparent and out there. The part that's not transparent is the 257 00:16:56,799 --> 00:17:03,600 KYC aspect. But I suspect that maybe nine ninety five percent of new people 258 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,359 coming into bitcoin are going through KYC services. If you put all that together, 259 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,759 you end up with a very grim situation where not only are the bitcoiners 260 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:18,200 who are using KYC services getting tracked, and potentially if that gets leaked, 261 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:22,799 like criminals and whatnot, will know how much you have every transaction you make 262 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,640 as well, or foreign governments, right, you know, maybe the Chinese 263 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,000 or the Russians KYC and then they know as well. But it ends up 264 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,400 in a situation where the people you transact with you compromise them. So let's 265 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,400 say you went through KYS, you have some KYC bitcoin, I come down 266 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,759 to bit block Boom in August and you pay me some bitcoin and it goes 267 00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:47,039 into my wallet unbeknownst to me that I now have a transactions that's linked to 268 00:17:47,079 --> 00:17:51,559 Gary. Right, I'm one step away from that KYC. So it actually 269 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,000 hurts the privacy of everyone else in the system at the same time. So 270 00:17:55,319 --> 00:18:00,559 I consider this almost an existential threat to bitcoin. Bitcoin probably be fine regardless, 271 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:07,160 because I think long term will have a circular economy where you don't buy 272 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,400 bitcoin, you earn bitcoin, and you don't sell bitcoin, you spend bitcoin. 273 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,319 So those fiatle on ramps off ramps aren't as important, but until then 274 00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:18,799 it definitely presents a threat to actual bitcoiners. Our best tool we have right 275 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:25,079 now because there's no protocol improvements really in the pipeline is coin join. And 276 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,559 the issue with coin join is it the whole concept of coin join relies on 277 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,279 being a part of a larger crowd. So if you don't have other people 278 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:37,599 doing it, it's not going to be that effective. Well, first of 279 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:40,359 all, when someone's going to pay you something bitcoin, do you ask them 280 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,720 if it's been mixed or do you have a wallet for that? Well, 281 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:48,599 first of all, you should always segregate everything. You shouldn't be like co 282 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:51,960 mingling your bitcoin funds. Explain that to me, what does that mean? 283 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:55,759 So if you were going to send me a bitcoin, I would over create 284 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,839 a new wallet and it'd be I'd label it Gary, and that would be 285 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,680 the funds that Gary sent me, and then I would deal with that accordingly. 286 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,640 Okay, So, but you're not going to end up with the thousand 287 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,079 wallets Sunday because a thousand people sent you one hundredth of a bitcoin. You're 288 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:12,880 going to open up that wallet, I guess, and coin join it and 289 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,960 then just get rid of the wallet. Unless I ever sing any more money. 290 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,799 Yeah, maybe, right, I mean in keeping all these wallets. 291 00:19:19,279 --> 00:19:26,119 Right before Samurai had the coin join built into mobile, doing on the spot 292 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,599 coin joints was not very feasible. So you segregate first and then you coin 293 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,720 join afterwards, and that provides you some decent protection. It's not perfect, 294 00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:37,880 like coin joint isn't perfect, but you have to remember, like if I 295 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,319 don't coin join after you pay me, and you're malicious, you could potentially 296 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,720 track my past and future transactions as those funds get commingled with my other bitcoin. 297 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,440 So and if someone has compromised you, then you might not be malicious, 298 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,240 but they can then track me through that as well. Right, So 299 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:59,200 it becomes a very insidious issue. And really the most practical way for us 300 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,400 to handle that right now is for coinjoin to be normalized, for people to 301 00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:06,559 just do it as best practice. We don't reuse bitcoin addresses anymore. We 302 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,039 know that if I give you an address and then I give some guy Tom 303 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,720 the same address, that Tom can see your payments to that address. We 304 00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:17,640 don't do that anymore, and coin joint is just another type of bitcoin transaction, 305 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,200 and it should be normalized to the point where it's a net benefit there. 306 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:23,799 Now, am I incorrect or did I see Have I read something or 307 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:30,839 seen something or heard somebody say that there is a people who won't accept mixed 308 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,799 coins, coins have been in mixers, or there's a problem in that in 309 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,440 I don't know, if you notice I've intentionally keep saying coinjoin not mixing. 310 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,599 Yes, I didn't know the proper term. So yeah, no, that's 311 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,920 fine. A lot of people, plenty of people called coinjoin mixing, and 312 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,799 you know, this is just my personal preference. This is how I like 313 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:51,279 to frame it. Historically in bitcoin, you know, coinjoin was first proposed, 314 00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:55,799 I think in twenty thirteen, so it's relatively new. Historically in bitcoin, 315 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,359 people that we're seeking privacy use something called to casto mixer, right, 316 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,079 And the idea was you would basically send bitcoin to a third party, and 317 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,759 that third party would send you different bitcoin, They would send you someone else's 318 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:14,759 bitcoin, and that would break the link on chain. This custodial aspect has 319 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:18,480 made it very much a target for governments. It's you know, they consider 320 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:23,160 it money laundering. So using custodial mixers is a very bad idea from a 321 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,640 legal point of view. Coin join the difference with coin joint is it's a 322 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:32,039 bitcoin send, it's a batch bitcoin send with other users, usually with the 323 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:36,200 same exact denomination. So you have a bunch of transactions that go in at 324 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,119 point zero one bitcoin, for instance, and a bunch of transactions come out 325 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,240 at points zero one bitcoin. So you're never actually giving up custody of your 326 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,920 funds, You're not getting someone else's coins. You're basically creating. Let's say 327 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,119 five utxos go in, five new utxos come out, and you do have 328 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,640 a centralized coordinator that handles that in terms of like a service like Whirlpool, 329 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,160 but you could do it with just peer to peer so like me and you 330 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,559 could do a two per coin join and if you looked on the chain, 331 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,440 it would be a guessing game whose funds were which when you when you hit 332 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,799 that point. So then in terms of legality, there have been some issues 333 00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:18,640 recently with people depositing into KYC compliance services of regulatory compliance services like exchanges and 334 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,759 stuff, where they've had transactions flat I'm pretty sure all those transactions have been 335 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,079 related to a SABI, and with SABI was using this fixed fee address and 336 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:33,440 there was this proximity involved with that fixed fee address. The issue was you 337 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,519 would have a scammer come into the coin join, they would pay this fee 338 00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:40,119 address, and then you would go into a coin join round and you'd pay 339 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,519 the fie address. So all the transactions were like linked to that fee address, 340 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:48,319 and the exchanges didn't want that. It's too much liability for those exchanges. 341 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,319 One of the beauties of Whirlpool is there's no deterministic links to any transactions 342 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,839 that go through there. There's no there's no links to like a there's not 343 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,799 essential address that has proximity. So hopefully we won't see flagging happen there. 344 00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:06,240 There hasn't been flagging there. There might be, though there's still there's a 345 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:10,640 chance there still could be. Coin joins are completely visible on chain. If 346 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,279 regulators or institutions want to use that as a flagging characteristic, then they might, 347 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,079 you know. But the way I view it is they could also just 348 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,319 ban bitcoin. You might not be able to sell your bitcoin in your country 349 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:27,240 at any given time. That's a risk you take when you own bitcoin. 350 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:33,640 So I hope that we can further educate institutions and regulators, but I'm not 351 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,359 going to get my hopes up on that. I operate under the belief that 352 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,680 it's it's like a one way system. I have no intention of ever selling 353 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,039 bitcoin on the KYC exchange. I have no intention of needing to do that. 354 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,480 The whole the whole idea is is that we're opting out for a whole 355 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:55,480 different money. If you're the idea that you're going to go into a store 356 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,519 in five years or eight years and try and spend bitcoin, and that store 357 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,799 is going to look back at your transaction history, how far do they look 358 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,759 back? Are they gonna, you know, and try and analyze it and 359 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,559 decide if you can spend or not if we hit that point, which ironically 360 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:15,279 it would probably be more likely to hit if people didn't use coin join. 361 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,759 I think bitcoin has bigger issues on his hands, and it's not really a 362 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,440 very useful money if people have to do these these analysis to deal with it. 363 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,960 So it's it's like a little bit of a chicken and an egg kind 364 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,480 of thing. Well, what do you have time period or would it not 365 00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:33,319 be a certain amount of hops for the bitcoin? Yeah, but like where 366 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,160 do you draw the line? ATMs coin source ATMs they told me one of 367 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,160 the guys that as the owner that Kepny told me that they follow bitcoin five 368 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,759 hops, you know, and if during those five hops it goes to the 369 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:49,960 wrong person, you can't use those machines anymore. Yeah, that's ridiculous, 370 00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:53,279 that's what he said. So like, let's say you buy at the ATM 371 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:59,480 and then you send me bitcoin, correct, right, completely legal transaction, 372 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,279 and I coin join it. Right, They're gonna flag you, right. 373 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,279 Or then let's say I pay you, I pay, I pay you bitcoin, 374 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,039 then I coin joined and then you try and sell it. Well, 375 00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:14,160 you didn't say cojo. It was more like if you if I bought bitcoin 376 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,839 and send it to you, and you send it to Lebanon or something, 377 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:23,200 right and hands a terrorist, then I'm kicked off the machine, right idea 378 00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,920 exactly. Well, that's one of the reasons why coin join we need people 379 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:32,119 to use coin join, right, is because you have these situations that are 380 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,880 completely out of your control where bitcoin can have perceived taint by regulators or not. 381 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,640 The thing is, I think this is all antithetical to bitcoin. Like 382 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,519 if if you want to be completely regulatory compliant and you want to day trade 383 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:51,079 bitcoin and you want to buy a bunch of bitcoin and then sell it six 384 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,400 months later, because they ticked up a little bit in price or whatever. 385 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,759 Then you leave it on exchanges, you know, or you just send it 386 00:25:56,759 --> 00:26:00,200 out to one address and you'll hold it, you hold it non kwise, 387 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,640 you hold you hold it non custodial in your own address, and then you 388 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,799 send it right back in just one transaction out one transaccident. By all means 389 00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:10,680 like, if people want to do that, they want to do that. 390 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,279 But if you want to actually own bitcoin, if you want to actually use 391 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:17,440 bitcoin, you're gonna like every spend should be a coin join. You should 392 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,400 make do as many coin joins as possible. You should be constantly doing it. 393 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,680 It's it's like it'd be like if you were using the Internet without encryption, 394 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:30,359 or you were screaming your personal conversations like on main Street in front of 395 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,880 everybody. It's like the most ridiculous thing ever. It's it's just it's just 396 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,839 basic financial privacy. So I assume you have made a video showing people how 397 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,680 to do coin. No, I haven't yet, because I know you make 398 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:44,039 a lot of videos, so I thought I just assumed you might have. 399 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:45,720 Hey, before we go any further, I do want to take advantage of 400 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,279 this opportunity. To make sure if anyone's listening or watching that is not for 401 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,200 me with bit block Boom, that they go to bitblock boom dot com and 402 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:57,839 check out our conference that we're still planning on hosting in August in Alas, 403 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,319 Texas. So checkout bit block boom dot com. And if you decide to 404 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,720 get a ticket, use the word cousins at checkout cusi NS and that will 405 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,640 save you thirty percent off the price of your ticket. But you think we're 406 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,559 gonna see that, Matt, You think I'm still planning on it. I 407 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:17,119 mean I'm still moving along everything as though we're gonna have it happen. I 408 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,559 sure hope. So last year was a lot of fun, a lot of 409 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:22,839 great Texas were going to be really great. I'm really kind of you know. 410 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,720 We we were selling tickets at a good pace. We had a lot 411 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:29,400 of new people there I wanted to meet, you know, that'st thing about 412 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,000 it. I got to meet so many people that I didn't know. And 413 00:27:32,319 --> 00:27:36,039 you know, we had even now we had things starting on Thursday, you 414 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,599 know, with the with the dinner Welcome dinner Thursday night, and more things 415 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:44,240 are being added. We're getting ready to add the Citadel thing that was going 416 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:45,799 to happen in San Francisco. She asked if she could do it, difing 417 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,319 Bit Block Boom. Oh what Katie's thing. Yeah, yeah, so she's 418 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,559 going to do that on Friday, and then I want to do my own. 419 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,440 I have Bigcoin Citadel. We want to do a workshop. Yeah, 420 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,440 I said, I'm I'm you know, my goal really is for some day 421 00:28:00,519 --> 00:28:04,200 this to be like a week you know, events, and most of them 422 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,240 not be mine. You know that other people were doing so many events that 423 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,039 you know, now we got to starting on Thursday, you know. I 424 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,400 figured next year we'll probably start on Wednesday, you know, and go till 425 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,519 Sunday. What I really enjoyed about Bit Black Boom last year was that it 426 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,440 was a very intimate event. There wasn't that many people there, the price 427 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,200 was very accessible as a very low price. It just was a very good 428 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,960 atmosphere. Like, the atmosphere was just fantastic, And you deserve all the 429 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,759 props in the world for that because you threw you threw a great conference. 430 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:40,079 And I strongly hope that it will happen again this year. And I'm gonna 431 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:41,920 say yes, I'm gonna say it's gonna happen, So we'll see. Like 432 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 I said, I'm planning when it happening. I'm still moving full steam. 433 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,880 And it's funny, you know, ticket sales were going really big and now 434 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,759 they slowed down. There's one a week here, and it's funny. I 435 00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:56,759 saw like four the other day to people from Norway. For that was the 436 00:28:56,839 --> 00:28:59,440 kind of a surpriser there to me. Yeah, we had a decent amount 437 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,240 of Europeans there last year. I actually am always surprised. I had more 438 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:08,759 people I think from Europe maybe than I had from Dallas, which is right 439 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,200 where it's at. And then I had someone say to him he said, 440 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,799 well, that's because you're not having any local speakers, and I said, 441 00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:17,000 well that made no sense to me at all. You can go see those 442 00:29:17,039 --> 00:29:19,359 local speakers anytime. Why would you pay, You know, these are the 443 00:29:19,359 --> 00:29:22,599 people you can never see. So that is true. That's true. They 444 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,720 want to ask them that wallets. Okay, we coin joined this money, 445 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:33,279 this bitcoin. But let's say this guy Fred has ten bitcoins that he's gathered. 446 00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:36,000 You know, over time, he's been coin joining him. What should 447 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,920 he do with these ten bitcoins to keep him as safe as possible. I 448 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,559 wouldn't think you'd want to put them all on one wallet. You know, 449 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,119 in case you get robbed at your house and you have to give them one 450 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,640 because they do a lead pipe attack, you want to give him a wallet 451 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,880 to get their ass out of there. You know, I would think you'd 452 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,279 want several wallets. What do you think is the best thing for someone to 453 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,480 do if once they get this all done and now they got to store So 454 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400 like, this question comes up all the time. It's obviously a very common 455 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,960 question. No, no, no, no, it's good. It's a 456 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:07,880 very important it's probably one of the most important questions. But the problem is 457 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,799 is, you know, it depends on your particular situation. Right, there's 458 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:14,920 a lot of nuance here, but good rule of thumb. As you said, 459 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:18,000 multiple wallets, right, that's always a very good rule of thumb for 460 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:22,319 people because you compartmentalize. Right, Like, if something happens to one wallet, 461 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,960 whether that's theft, physical theft, whether that's digital theft, or whether 462 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,519 that's just a bug in the wallet code because you can't read code, it's 463 00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:36,519 good to have to use multiple wallets and to split it up. I think 464 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:40,640 it's super important for people to store their own keys. Usually in this case, 465 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,160 it's usually a hardware wallet mobile wallets as well. Basically hardware wallets and 466 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,799 mobile wallets or where we are, like, there's I think there's very little 467 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:52,400 reason to at least the average user to be storing bitcoin on their computer. 468 00:30:52,759 --> 00:30:56,480 You know, if you're more advanced, maybe you're running like TAILS or something 469 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,680 like that, which is a privacy focus system OS on the computer, and 470 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,480 that's how you generate your keys, and there's all these complicated ways where you 471 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,519 can do better cold storage than maybe you would obtain from a hardware wallet. 472 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,200 But basically where we're at as hardware wallets and mobile wallets because mobile it's it's 473 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,559 a more hardened platform, they're more secure devices in general for the average user, 474 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:21,079 and you want to split up your funds, so like any single wallet 475 00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:25,079 doesn't screw you. As far as hardware wallets, there's only three that I 476 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,920 would ever recommend, which is a cold cards my favorite, and then Ledger 477 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,640 and Treasure after that, and like kind of just drops off a cliff and 478 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,799 you don't really want to use like fly by Night hardware wallet makers that doesn't 479 00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:42,000 have a lot of code review or whatnot. And then hopefully we'll have easy 480 00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:48,240 to use multi sake, so you'll be able to use multiple hardware wallets to 481 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:52,599 store your keys. So if any hardware wallet is affected or compromised, your 482 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,039 funds aren't stolen. Your funds aren't taken in that situation. And that does 483 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:01,519 help you as well in those lead pipe situations because you can keep the keys 484 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:05,519 in different locations, right, so like you keep them stored in all different 485 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:08,079 places. And then as far as mobile wallets, like my two favorite mobile 486 00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:12,079 wallets, I think Summarizes is the best mobile wallet there is. It's only 487 00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:15,160 on Android, and then if you have a iPhone, like green Wallet is 488 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,640 pretty solid by blockstream. So you name three wallets there, NBC's cold Card 489 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,839 and in Treasure and Ledger. This Fred has ten bitcoin in this scenario, 490 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:30,680 so should he have like three of each one or should he have all of 491 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,720 one, you know, ten of one. Let's say he's like wanting to 492 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,599 put one bitcoin on each one because he thinks of bitcoin is gonna be worth 493 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,480 a million dollars and he doesn't want a million dollars ten million dollars on one 494 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,480 wallet. It's a personal decision. It depends on your situation. You know, 495 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:49,480 ten bitcoin is like a decent is a decent amount of money right now, 496 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:53,079 that's like seventy thousand dollars. I imagine most people aren't storing just immediately 497 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,799 ten bitcoin themselves, so they're gonna hopefully come in slow and steady and get 498 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,599 used to it and learn the wall and actually use it so they get comfortable 499 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,400 with it. You want to get comfortable with it. I usually tell people 500 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,480 you want to back it up with the small amount of bitcoin on it, 501 00:33:07,599 --> 00:33:12,319 back it up, wipe it, and then restore it so you know that 502 00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:15,039 process works, so you're not trying to do it in a disastrous situation where 503 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:19,960 you're trying to restore the backup. I usually tell people they should buy two. 504 00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:21,880 If they get a hardware will, they should buy two of them. 505 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,160 You're gonna buy a cold card. Buy two cold cards. Then you know 506 00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:28,599 you can initialize it. You set up your whole cold card, you create 507 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,839 the backup, you send a little bit of bitcoin to it, and then 508 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,119 you can reinitialize it on the second cold card so you don't even have to 509 00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:38,319 wipe the first one, and you can make sure your restored process works. 510 00:33:38,359 --> 00:33:43,519 Everything goes smoothly, and then you have a second cold card with you're able 511 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:45,920 to access your bitcoin, so you can put them in two different locations, 512 00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:50,559 and if something happens, you don't have to actually restore the seed on the 513 00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:53,319 fly at that moment. You can just go to your backup cold card and 514 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,519 have it ready to go. So I'm a real strong believer. And like 515 00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:01,200 what we just said, ten bitcoin, So that's seventy thousand dollars, Like 516 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,680 what, you can't buy two hundred dollar devices? Like that's ridiculous, Like, 517 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,639 of course you can, Like that's that is worth it. Buying a 518 00:34:07,679 --> 00:34:12,960 second one is worth it. So should Fred buy ten? Or should Fred 519 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,920 by two? And then as they get more valuable start subdividing again, That's 520 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,239 what I would think. I would think fresh and made by two and Fred. 521 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,800 Or let's say we got Joe and Joe's working to get one, right, 522 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,000 Joe gets one, should he stop doing that wallet and move over to 523 00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:30,360 a second one? Start fill it in, you know, on the hope 524 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,760 that it's gonna be worth a lot. I mean, in this is our 525 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,519 day, the situation, I like having two of that or the same wallet, 526 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,880 right, So like in that case, I'm not talking about necessarily splitting 527 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,239 it up between those two wallets. If you have two cold cards. They 528 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840 mirror each other, they're controlling the same wallet. Like I said, I 529 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:52,519 think bickcoin in general should be a process where you come in and you know, 530 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:55,639 you slowly get your hands dirty, and you learn more as you go. 531 00:34:57,159 --> 00:35:00,480 There's like two sides of the spectrum. You don't want to be someone 532 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,320 who just blindly buys bitcoin and just leaves it on the exchanges. But you 533 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,119 also don't want to be someone who just all of a sudden just deploys all 534 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:12,599 their savings and just immediately throws it into a wallet they've never used before. 535 00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:15,199 You want to be in the middle ground. You want to slowly and steadily 536 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:20,800 improve your understanding a bitcoin, get more comfortable with it, and adapt how 537 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,599 you're storing it, how you're securing it over time, as you get more 538 00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:29,719 comfortable and as you realize what trade offs you're making and what concerns you have? 539 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,239 What is your threat model? Who are you worried about potentially taking your 540 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,599 bitcoin? Are you worried about the wallet manufacturer? Are you worried about your 541 00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:38,239 government? Are you worried about a criminal you know? Are you worried about 542 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,000 your significant other? I mean, if you're worried about your significant other then 543 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,280 probably should get a new significant other. But like these things should all be 544 00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:51,000 you know, you learn as you go. First of all, I think 545 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,360 maybe there's a few bitcoin experts, but most people aren't expert. I think 546 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,559 it's almost impossible to ever be an expert in bitcoin. And I think this 547 00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:01,760 idea that like, oh, I'm too much of a new to understand is 548 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:07,599 also ridiculous because we all came in as news. We all started as fresh 549 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:10,440 bitcoiners that had no idea what was going on, and you slowly learn over 550 00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:15,079 time, and if you have questions, you ask and you learn. And 551 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,239 fortunately bitcoin is a very accessible community in terms of learning and knowledge. We 552 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,880 have lots of resources on the Internet, and we have lots of active people 553 00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:28,719 that are happy to answer questions or happy to help you along that process. 554 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,719 It does come down to personal responsibility, and in this world right now, 555 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,760 most people have been trained to have zero personal responsibility, so that is a 556 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:44,000 major It messages with people's heads. But it does come down to personal responsibility. 557 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,840 It is your money. You are responsible for storing it, and you 558 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,360 have to take the appropriate measures to learn make yourself better and store it properly 559 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,480 well. As a spider man says with great power, which having your own 560 00:36:55,519 --> 00:37:00,639 money is kind of great responsibility exactly. That's one of my favorite quotes. 561 00:37:01,599 --> 00:37:05,880 And I know someone famous said it besides Spider Man, but I always think 562 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,920 it's Spider Man when I think of that quote. Well, you know, 563 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,400 we're getting near the end of the show here because I try to keep these 564 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,519 at a certain amount of time and before I go, and I appreciate it. 565 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:20,440 You gave us a really good walk through on coin joining and Wallace and 566 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,840 hopefully that's gonna be helpful for someone out there. And you educated me because 567 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,719 I wasn't sure that I was following the coin join. I wouldn't even calling 568 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,400 it the right thing. So so I appreciate that. So is there anything 569 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,840 you want to make sure and say where we get out of here, I 570 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,599 don't want to cut you off and there was something you wanted to cover or 571 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,519 over or no. I mean, look, thank you for having me. 572 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,800 I always enjoy our conversations, both on the air and off the air. 573 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,480 I'm really looking forward to bit block Booms, so I really hope it happens. 574 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm excited to participate it in again, and I want to do a 575 00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:53,039 workshop, as I said, and we want you to do one. I 576 00:37:53,039 --> 00:37:55,440 want you to you know what I think it's gonna happen. Matt. Here's 577 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,679 what I'm predicting. It's gonna go one two ways. It's gonna castle. 578 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,480 Either that's one and I'll just send everybody back their mind. Are me having 579 00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:07,960 this at in the August and everybody else's events have been canceled for the whole 580 00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:13,880 year are postponed. I'm gonna be like the first real event and I'm gonna 581 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,320 have the event of the year. I mean, it's gonna be one or 582 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,639 the others. It's gonna be the best event ever, or it's not gonna 583 00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:22,679 happen. This is what I said to you in like middle early March, 584 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,239 when it looked like Bitcoining twenty twenty was about to be canceled, but it 585 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,679 hadn't been canceled yet, And I was like anyone who complained about growing a 586 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,159 conference in August in Dallas when it's super hot, because I've never experienced heat 587 00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:37,360 like that before. I came down there like jokes on them, because it 588 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,719 might turn out to be the perfect timing and location for it, you know, 589 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,960 especially as you know people are saying like, oh the heat can can 590 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,360 mitigate maybe the virus spread and stuff like that. So you know, I'm 591 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,559 CAUTI to see optimistic there. But what I want to leave people with is, 592 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:53,280 don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. You want to get your 593 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,199 hands dirty. That's the best way to learn, at least that's my favorite 594 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,800 way to learn. I think that's how people learn. That's why the workshops. 595 00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:04,320 Get your hands dirty, you know, get comfortable with storing your own 596 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,440 keys, learn how to use your own node. Do you want to run 597 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,719 your own note it's getting easier to do it now, and play around with 598 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,519 coin joint. I completely understand that some people just want to be completely regulatory 599 00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:21,320 compliant and ask for permission for everything, and that's you know, by all 600 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:22,880 means, if you want to do that, that's fine. But as I 601 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:28,440 said, you know, I think that with bitcoin comes great responsibility and you 602 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,079 you owe it to yourself to learn how to use this stuff and to play 603 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:34,639 with it. And once you play with it, you'll see it's it's not 604 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,760 this scary boogey man. It's just Bitcoin best practices. Yeah, it's just 605 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:42,480 taking the time to learn what you need to know exactly. And there's there's 606 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,599 a ton of resources out there. I agree, I mean there's a ton 607 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:46,400 of resources. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show. If anyone 608 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,800 wants to follow Matt, your mat underscore odo is that right? Correct? 609 00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:53,320 So follow Matt. He's always got great things that he's posting. You're one 610 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,639 of my favorite people to follow too, so I appreciate you coming on the 611 00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:01,679 show again. Thanks a lot, and hopefully I'll be seeing you in August. 612 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,760 Thank you, Gary. I hope you've enjoyed today's show, and I 613 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,679 want to give a big thank you to all my cousins out there for listening 614 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,039 and subscribe. If you haven't subscribed yet, just go to cryptocusins dot com 615 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,440 and you'll see the links for all the places you can subscribe. You want 616 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,719 to take a second, leave a great review or four star rating even while 617 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,480 you're at it, I also recommend you go to crypto podcast dot com and 618 00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:30,480 see all my other podcasts and websites for the world of bitcoin. There's a 619 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:35,440 lot of no look at. Thanks for listening to the cryptocusins podcast. Please 620 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,480 share the show with your friends. They can subscribe by going to cryptocusins dot 621 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,639 com slash subscribe, and if you want to know more about Gary, just 622 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,840 go to Gary leland dot com. Make sure and join Gary and all the 623 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:54,360 Cryptocusins every week for a new episode of the Cryptocusins podcast. The Cryptocusins podcast 624 00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:00,880 and the information included in the podcast are not intended as investment advice. Investing 625 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,079 in any cryptocurrency is risky and you should never invest more than you can afford 626 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:09,760 to lose. Always seek professional advice before investing in any cryptocurrency. Please understand 627 00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:25,559 you are using any and all information from the crypto Cousins at your own risk.