WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.400 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.240 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:18.399 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:23.440 up now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard. 6 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:28.000 Here. As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in 7 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:33.960 person conferences around the world. DC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. 8 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.280 Go to Eddcporto dot com to register and check out the full lineup of 9 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:43.600 conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, 10 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:48.159 the Purple Blazer guy from Microsoft, letting you in on a little secret about 11 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.920 my friend Carl Franklin. You know the guy who started dot net Rocks, 12 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:57.719 the first podcast about dot net in two thousand and two, The guy who's 13 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:03.040 been teaching Blazer on YouTube since twenty Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, 14 00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:07.079 Carl's joined up with the folks from Code in a Castle to teach a week 15 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:12.159 long hands on Blazer class at Are you ready to get this at a castle 16 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:19.040 slash villa in Tuscany. It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built 17 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:26.879 in. Carl's calling it the Blazer master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the 18 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.920 ground up, finishing the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. 19 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.920 Since the training happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, 20 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.920 you can bring your significant other your partner with you and you should right 21 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:46.959 that this part of Italy is absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and 22 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:52.560 do and and Larry and Marco from Code in a Castle are organizing daily activities 23 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.840 both at the castle and in the area. The castle is in the Marema, 24 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.760 a less touristed region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as 25 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:07.479 well as easy access to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine 26 00:02:07.479 --> 00:02:13.560 and olive oil around every corner. Breakfast is included every day. There will 27 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:16.919 be two communal dinners at the castle book ending the experience, and most other 28 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:23.360 meals and all activities are included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in 29 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:28.599 person from Carl Franklin Listen. Space is limited and for very good reason. 30 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:34.439 This is quality training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot 31 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:40.680 com slash Blazer twenty twenty three. That's bla z o R two zero two 32 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:46.199 three to take advantage of this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an 33 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:53.520 unforgettable week of La dolce vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new 34 00:02:53.599 --> 00:03:09.680 technology. Welcome back to dot net and rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, and 35 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:14.479 I'm Richard Campbell, and Jimmy Bogart is here. We haven't talked to him 36 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.319 in a while. It's gonna be fun, fun, fun, I say. 37 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.560 But first, Richard, how are you you all moved out yet? 38 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.439 Just about moved? Yeah? Final, you know, of course we're recording 39 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:24.800 a couple of weeks in advance, sort of the last things we're moving. 40 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:29.840 By the time this show publishes, I think we'll be a week away from 41 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.360 handing over the keys and living on the coast full time. So we've done 42 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:38.800 the slow move like we've spent weeks at it, just taking truckloads up each 43 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:43.520 week with our pickup, and in some ways it's been very therapeutic because bit 44 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:46.280 by bitness. House feels less and less ours. Yeah, you know, 45 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:50.639 when you take all the stuff off the walls and you're emptying out rooms and 46 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.960 stuff, it just sort of becomes a house adminally, it's a house we 47 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:58.080 built back in the day. But and it looks like it needs a rena 48 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.360 now, like it's been fourteen years since we built it. So the cabinet 49 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.080 needs to refinished and the floor should be redone, and I'd replace that carpet 50 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:10.280 and I paint those walls and it's not my problem. Somebody else is gonna 51 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:16.040 own it three four weeks, So that's that. I had my uh Pop 52 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:23.399 three zero Studios opening grand opening party last Saturday. Yeah, it's not really 53 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:27.720 done, but it's pretty close. Let's be clear. Nothing's ever done. 54 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:30.560 Nothing's ever done. It's like building a software apple, you know, building 55 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.360 an app. Is it done? What is done? Well? There there 56 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.600 is a definition of done, and it's not there yet. Basically, we 57 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.879 have the you know, the walls are great, the floor is awesome, 58 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.680 the tram is done. They are conditioning unit is in and half of the 59 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:51.279 room has sound absorptive ceiling tiles on them and they're hung like they're custom made. 60 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:57.160 They're hung so they're two inches from the top and that means that sound 61 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.560 gets trapped above them as well as below them. But only half the room 62 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:03.839 was done in it's just because we just didn't finish that and we had to 63 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.399 had to pick a day. So I mean, can you record in it 64 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.120 yet because you kind of need that stuff? Well I could, but I 65 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.240 don't want to move everything in there until all of those panels are up because 66 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:15.639 everything will be in the way, you know. Yeah, yeah, but 67 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:20.600 it's very exciting. You know, we've got that nice wooden floors and they 68 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:24.680 need to be refinished, but you would never do that in living it like 69 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.079 it's such a it's such a mass. Yeah yeah. And so the one 70 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.240 chance the new owner is going to get to redo the floor is you know, 71 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:34.279 in this window when we're out before they go in. It's like, 72 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:42.839 you should do this floor now. Oh the joys of building and tearing down. 73 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.560 But it's funny, my reflexing, this place is no longer so much 74 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:47.439 my place, and it's a place I would renovate and how we'd fix it 75 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.480 up, like the things that it needs, because after fourteen years since we've 76 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.079 built it, it just like it needs things. Yeah, sure, well, 77 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.560 let's get things started with better no a framework or all the crazy music, 78 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:11.360 you know, as if I didn't need another project, what are you 79 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:16.199 doing? I decided to start a new little YouTube and maybe even TikTok show 80 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:24.639 called the Blazer Puzzle. Okay, okay, So every week and Jeff Fritz 81 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.959 is going to be doing it with me. Every week, we're going to 82 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.800 create a little demo, you know, a little Blazer application that you can 83 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:36.600 download and either it's either going to be a puzzle, a coding challenge or 84 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:41.800 find the bug kind of thing. Why doesn't this work? Can you make 85 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.240 the architecture better? Just something very simple, right? And then people email 86 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:50.959 me their answers and I'll pick one at random from all the correct answers and 87 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:57.279 send them a mug, A what mug you say, a Blazer puzzle mug, 88 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.360 so that they don't even really exist yet, but they were. I'm 89 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.480 sure they'll be great. Yeah, sure it would be great. And the 90 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:08.279 only way you can get them is by answering them correctly. So that's what 91 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:12.439 I've that's what I'm doing right now. So it will be at blazer Puzzle 92 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.120 dot com probably by the time you read this. And I hope you have 93 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:19.480 fun with it. I keep thinking about actually making a Blazer puzzle, Like 94 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:23.120 what would that app look like where you had a bunch of pieces and you 95 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.839 could move them around. Oh yeah, yeah, it's more like a puzzler. 96 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.120 It's more like a gotcha solver kind of thing. Yeah, figure stuff 97 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.160 out. Yeah, I kind of like the idea of a you know, 98 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.000 a picture of you in a different picture of Fritz and the logo and then 99 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.279 it breaks into puzzle pieces and falls to the bottom of the screen. You're 100 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:44.120 not far from the actual test video that we've created already to introduce it. 101 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.120 It kind of does look like that, good guess. Yeah. Well, 102 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.399 it's also also you know, it speaks to the fact that I didn't don't 103 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:56.079 have an original idea to save my life, so I'm not gonna get there. 104 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:59.759 You know, we had to. We had to fall in fall in 105 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.439 love calling you got it. You've got the domain name. You pretty much 106 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.920 dictates what you're gonna do pretty much. So anyway, that's it. Who's 107 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.839 talking to us today? Richard? I grabbed a comment off a show eighteen 108 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:11.879 fifty two which we did just back in June with Sean Walker, and we 109 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:15.680 were talking about going full time and open source. Yeah, you know, 110 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.959 just the sort of thing Jimmy Bogar, we'ld never do. Never. But 111 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.079 we had some great comments on that show. And I mean, it's really 112 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.240 fun to talk to Sean too, because he really came in it from a 113 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.319 yet another angle. As we keep exploring this, what does the open source 114 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:35.759 ecosystem look like today? And I'm gonna I'm gonna presume this is a pseudonym 115 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.120 because it's q r y s, which to me reads like queries, you 116 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.399 know, except for a distinct lack of vowels. Well that why doesn't seem 117 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:46.840 like a vowel in necessary? So Queery says, hey, thanks for the 118 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.600 great show. I can confirm that for companies it's really a hurdle to donate 119 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.039 to open source projects, even if they use and appreciate open source tools and 120 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.120 libraries. Like my small employer, which is only about twenty people. However, 121 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.159 we have now I decided to handle it this way. Each year, 122 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:07.679 employees can nominate their most valuated or appreciated open source project. The one that 123 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.440 eventually gets chosen gets a one time donation of about a thousand Swiss francs. 124 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.159 I just checked that's like eleven us. Okay, I think it's good service 125 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.039 one example of how to overcome the mental hurdle for such payments. Because it's 126 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:24.559 only just once a year, they are somewhat justified by the company as an 127 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.399 organization, and the company might even advertise this, although we currently don't. 128 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.759 Yeah, I don't know how you'd advertise that well, other than that hole 129 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.679 wearing your culture on the sleeve. And we support open source thing. But 130 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.320 you know, a twenty person company committing a grand a year to an open 131 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.840 source project, that's pretty legit. Yeah, it's legit. So Queries, 132 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.279 thank you so much for your comment. I don't know that's your name. 133 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:48.759 I'm pretty sure it's not, but thanks anyway, And a copy of music 134 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:50.559 co Buy is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 135 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:52.480 of music Cobey, I read a comment on the website at donet Rocks dot 136 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.799 com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you 137 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.320 comment there and everything in the show, we'll send you a copy of music 138 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:00.840 Buy. And you can follow us on Twitter if you like. But the 139 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:05.360 real fund is happening over on Mastodon. I'm Carl Franklin at tech hub dot 140 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:09.279 social and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Send us a two and 141 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.919 we might even read it. Hey, let's bring back Jimmy Bogard, shall 142 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:18.600 we? Jimmy is the creator and maintainer of the popular open source libraries Auto 143 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:24.679 Mapper and Mediator That's Media t R. Jimmy's an independent software consultant based in 144 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:31.080 Austin, Texas. He's received the MVP Award every year since two thousand and 145 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.600 nine, and he joins us again today. Hey, Jimmy, how are 146 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:37.559 you doing? Okay? Like Tony'll earlier, just trying to survive in this 147 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.840 horrible heat you've having here in Austin, Texas. It's it's miserable, like 148 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.200 can't walk the dog, can't do anything yet, it's just dangerously hot, 149 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:50.039 right, like not, it's not even funny. It's just yeah, there's 150 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.799 like don't go outside between like three and sexs. Just don't. Yeah. 151 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:58.799 Right, you start to understand why desert cultures have a siesta, right, 152 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.440 because what else are you going to do? You mentioned trying to live without 153 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.240 AC in those conditions? Oh man, Yeah, get a get a fan 154 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.960 of a block of ice and good luck. Yeah, Well, the last 155 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:16.799 time we talked to you on the show was twenty nineteen. It was too 156 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:20.120 long ago, June twenty nineteen. Are we saying to garls I got on 157 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:22.360 today? It's like, you know, we don't talk to Jimmy often enough, 158 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.879 and the those the before times it was yeah, when we went to 159 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:30.399 offices and all that stuff. Yeah. Well, anyway, we were talking 160 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:35.320 about messaging architecture and I can't remember if we talked about media. You're probably 161 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.440 working on it at that time, but it wasn't the complete focus of it. 162 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.080 But why don't you start us off with the mediator pattern? What is 163 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:48.720 it? Why do we need it? Sure? So, I think just 164 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:52.399 as a context of where this kind of came from, it was a kind 165 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.799 of an evolution of us building larger systems and having a dealing with the complexities 166 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.639 of just the kind of busines, this logic and code we're having to manage, 167 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.559 and so the j the gist of the mediator pattern is that if you've 168 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:11.159 got some like like UI code or something that is needing to interact with some 169 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.440 services, instead of you trying to talk to those services directly, you go 170 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.200 through sort of a middleman. And the middleman is that mediator and so instead 171 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:24.600 of you like depending directly on those services that are doing the work for you, 172 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:28.559 you kind of package up what you want into a request object, you 173 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.879 send it to the mediator, it dispatches to the handling logic, and then 174 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.480 finally returns yet response. So it's a little bit different, but kind of 175 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.919 solves the same problem as MVVM. Right, A view model kind of does 176 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:45.519 that, but it doesn't have as explicit in architecture, Right, is that 177 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.320 what you think? Yeah? Exactly, these something these kind of they do 178 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:52.559 kind of compliment and go with each other. I mean, especially MVBM, 179 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.759 those those those things you're talking to are also stateful and then you know you're 180 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:01.000 receiving events and communicating from the UI. When we're using this mediator pattern, 181 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.240 where we're usually in the kind of a more of a stateless land, it's 182 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:11.240 like a web NBC sort of place where the UI or the browser is already 183 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:15.440 sending this request and receiving a response back. And so this pattern was trying 184 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.440 to take it sort of one level below that and kind of get rid of 185 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.000 all the UI cruft and response codes and just say, well, what is 186 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.639 like just the sort of pure data end data out that we're dealing with on 187 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.919 all the different requests in our system, but it solves the same kind of 188 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:35.679 problem, which is tight compling. Yeah. I mean we we're always trying 189 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.039 to find kind of the holy grill of the pattern that will solve all the 190 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.759 complexity issues in our codebase, and I mean, nothing ever solves it completely, 191 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:43.559 but that's what we're looking at. Like we were using NBC and this 192 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.879 is like early early days of asp net NBC classic, I don't what you 193 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.559 call, like the last one, and we just saw like our controllers were 194 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:54.279 getting big, like well, what do we do now? Or do we 195 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.000 put this junk that's piling up here? And so that, you know, 196 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.440 a lot of those kinds of concepts and ideas emerge from just dealing with these 197 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.000 big controller classes, like how do we what do we do? How do 198 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:09.000 we deal with this sort of stuff? Yeah? What I usually do is 199 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.120 make a some sort of manager that I can inject into the controller so the 200 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:18.720 controller merely passes on and returns data, you know, and those managers, 201 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:24.080 I guess in the mediator pattern, those would just be objects that you send 202 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.840 messages to and get messages back from. How does that work with a controller? 203 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.399 Yeah, so we we started that. We started that exact path as 204 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:33.240 well, where we had these you know, every controller like you know, 205 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:37.240 I don't know, invoice control or had the invoice manager that had the business 206 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:43.840 object and all the all the NBC controllery stuff, action results and HP contexts 207 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.679 and those webby sort of things. Those are on the controller. But once 208 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:48.279 you got into like the pure business logict, I'm you know, I'm passing 209 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.720 data to something and then it does the work and it gives me some data 210 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:58.639 outs. We started that as a as these manager classes. Now suddenly those 211 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.200 manager classes started to get big as well, right, and then each of 212 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.679 the methods on the manager classes was tied to like directly tied to a single 213 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.440 action or kind of HTTP endpoint on the front end, right, So you're 214 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:16.279 not really gaining any decoupling, you're just moving it into another class. We 215 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.679 moved it into a different class. And we also noticed that this was in 216 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.440 the days of subversion, so like merge conflicts were a thing that we had 217 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.000 to worry about. So we are also having this issue that if you know, 218 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.159 we had new features coming on to a set of screens, then multiple 219 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:35.759 developers were working in these manager classes and having just merge conflict, and we 220 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.799 went back to the sort of the original sort of solid design, and there's 221 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.279 that the eye and solid was the interface segregation principle, and then general ideas 222 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:50.200 there is that you if you have an interface with multiple methods and they don't 223 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.000 really have much to do with each other and never called together on the same 224 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:58.440 sort of requests. We found that each of those manager methods would only ever 225 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.080 called with one of the controller actions, right, So I thought, well, 226 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:06.480 even though these all have to deal with like voices the logic inside of 227 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:07.600 there, it really don't have anything to do with each other. They're just 228 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:11.120 all globed together in a single file. So our first step was just to 229 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:15.759 remove each of those manager methods and sticking in its own class so that it 230 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.039 just was living by itself. And then if I needed to change the one 231 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.440 action, I had one place to go to for the business logic of that 232 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.200 one action that was separated from the UI, but also separated from the logic 233 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.080 of other requests. But you were also talking about the merge conflict part of 234 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.799 this, but that separation and then because it was separate file, if you 235 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.279 I'm trying to think about it, did subversion make a difference there, Like 236 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.519 is get hub somehow better it merge conflicts. Get is better because you are 237 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:47.240 able to do a three way merge. You have what you both started with 238 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.639 and then like where you both ended, right, and Subversion you don't don't 239 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:55.480 really have. You only have like just constant, constant headaches. So part 240 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.200 of that was just the reaction of that, because I mean it kind of 241 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.240 hurts you in your heart when it's like changed the way I do my code 242 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:06.160 because of my tooling. Right, Oh there's I mean there are other issues 243 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:11.000 as well, like those are the old days, the horrible CS project merge 244 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.039 conflicts as well. So just like merge conflicts, Like, part of our 245 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.079 thing was like how do we separate the workouts of people working on features so 246 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.160 they're not stuffing in each other's toes? And so we started that thing of 247 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:26.400 just like, well, just split the manager into multiple methods and then each 248 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.079 methods in its own file and class. And if I have to change the 249 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.839 business logic for that one page, I'm not affecting anybody else. Nobody else 250 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.599 needs to know, you know all as well. I'm also reminded and I'm 251 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:42.039 sure if this many times is that every app has ugliness in it. It's 252 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.480 just a question of do you know where yours is? You know, like 253 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.079 you're gonna have to put some ugly somewhere, So how do you wrap it 254 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:55.599 in a relatively tidy package that people can deal with as spraying it all over 255 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.920 the whole app? In this case, you trade it off these giant manager 256 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.160 classes for lots of lots of little objects exactly that now you have to manage 257 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:07.440 you having to manage something. Yeah, we because the logic has to be 258 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:14.119 there, and that we we thought the idea of like having these managers as 259 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.200 well. It was like, well, we can now share logic between these 260 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.240 different things. But that was a you know, double edged sword. One 261 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:22.960 side of the store is actually much sharper than the other. Yeah, cut 262 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.079 us much worse because we found that if we changed this logic that were shared 263 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:32.240 amongst multiple things, like suddenly I could have these unintended side effects. So 264 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:33.519 we were adding new features to the system, We're like, Okay, I 265 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.640 got to spend much more time figuring out how many I'm gonna make sure not 266 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.480 breaking anything before I'm able to just write code. So that's kind of another 267 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.799 side effect. We're like well, don't like, don't make the first thing 268 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:48.000 you're doing sharing code. Make that be the exceptional case where you know it's 269 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.160 after the third time you've copied and pasted that logic like, Okay, maybe 270 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.359 this is something we should share but not share, but I'll do it up 271 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.279 front. So the mediator pattern came into play. Like, after us making 272 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.319 these like single files, we took a step back, like these all look 273 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.400 very similar, but they're also different and their own like not like they're also 274 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:11.279 different for no reason whatsoever. So we were looking around at the time, 275 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.880 this is also the time that Greg Young was coming up with this whole like 276 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.039 CQRS concept of like stepparing out read and write objects, and so we looked 277 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.680 at these these classes like, well, this is doing that. It's separating 278 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.039 out like every request from each other. So the logic is the separated out 279 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.480 and so we we settled on this. We flipped through the old Gang of 280 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:34.119 Four book like there's got to be a solution for this, right And one 281 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.119 of the few times that I've looked in that book and actually found something useful 282 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.960 was like, oh, instead of me having these like everything is a one 283 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:47.599 off whatever, I can have something mediate sending this request down, and so 284 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:52.519 instead of me depending directly on all these individual manager classes, instead I depend 285 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:57.400 on this one mediator class and I send a request for something, you know, 286 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.119 I request for data, request to do some work, and then I 287 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.480 get a single response back, and those individual manager classes got refactored into individual 288 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:11.240 request handlers from that mediator itself. So it's just a very natural kind of 289 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.839 refactoring progression for us to arrive at this pattern at the end, and you're 290 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.400 saying that you send a message and get a response, but it's not asynchronous, 291 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.720 is it because you're in the web context here. Yeah. I even 292 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:26.599 hesitate to call it a message because it doesn't have the traditional characters. There's 293 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.599 no head or there's no package or payload or whatever. So it's really we 294 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.880 called it a request objects. So it's a request dto if you will, 295 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:37.920 and I get back a response another dto or data transfer objects. We want 296 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.279 to make this very clear, like I'm sending kind of pure data in and 297 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.319 I'm getting pure data outs synchronous, and for exactly it's all a synchronous, 298 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.680 it's all in process. We're all just just trying to do like give us 299 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.920 one level separation between the thing doing the work and and like the pure kind 300 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:59.440 of request and response objects in and out. It's very pure data objects. 301 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:03.279 Yeah, you're also abstracting the transport off of that too. So if you 302 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:08.000 did want to do a messaging infrastructure or a saying systems and stuff, I 303 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.160 don't think it would be that big of a deal to support that. No, 304 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.039 but okay, so there are I wouldn't say competitors, but some folks 305 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:22.359 have been done like alternate implementations in this pattern and it becomes more formally realized. 306 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.000 There's another version of this kind of thing called a command dispatcher, and 307 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.000 I will go too far into it, but it's like a whole thing of 308 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.960 like, well, if you're in the business of like doing this whole uh, 309 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.559 you know, I don't care if it's a sync or not. It 310 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.599 could be durable or non durable messaging. You kind of go off on that 311 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.480 land. But I, on the heels of my other open source project, 312 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:48.200 Automapper, never try was ice strive to make this library have as few features 313 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:52.759 as possible, because because I realized like every new feature I added, I'd 314 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.079 have to support for years. I don't want to do that. I don't 315 00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:00.240 want to do that anymore. But let's make this as dumb the future main 316 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.799 factor ff of this, Yeah, like I really swung the pendulum. I'll 317 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.640 learn my lesson there. So this was like I wouldn't do that. There's 318 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.240 a couple of reasons. One is, if you look at it from a 319 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:18.720 user experience perspective, there's a stark contrast in the expected responses of an asynchronous 320 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:22.200 message versus a synchronous one. If I'm on a screen and I clicked the 321 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:27.279 button and it comes back to response saying yes, I you have submitted the 322 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:30.240 form and I've received it. Now you can see the results of that on 323 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.119 your screen. If it's asynchronous and it sends message to a Q, there's 324 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:38.160 no guarantee of when that work can be done, So the logical response you 325 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.680 get back is like we got your message. It'll be done sometime in the 326 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.920 future. We don't know when, but like thank you for your request versus 327 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.839 don't call us, we'll call you exactly. So like that the invoice example, 328 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.680 I click approve invoice, I go back to the list of invoices and 329 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:56.880 it shows approved. If I send them a submitted request to approve the invoice, 330 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.759 it'll just say we have received your request, but that invoice is not 331 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.160 approved yet. It's approved some time in the future, So don't I don't 332 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.640 try to swap those two up because it has a drastic impact to the user 333 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.400 experience. Yeah you could, though, You're just like I want if you 334 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.880 see folks using this pattern and they're like, oh yeah, and I can 335 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:18.480 swap in, you know, as your service bus, I'm like, wait 336 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:22.039 a second, that's going to have a huge impact on the UX because now 337 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:26.039 they can't they don't see the results of their actions. So just be careful 338 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.839 that you don't try to do that sort of thing. Right, So what 339 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:34.880 does the Mediator library have in it that gives me more than I can, 340 00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:40.599 you know, do just creating my own objects and interfaces to abstract these things 341 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:45.319 away, saving that thirty minutes of time, I guess. I mean even 342 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:48.839 when I created the library myself, I didn't want it again. I was 343 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.759 coming off of like autumn apper annoyance, and I like, I don't people 344 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.880 want all this stuff, and now they're asking me off for these features and 345 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.240 I don't want to, you know, say yes to everything, and so 346 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.839 there's like I want to create this library to begin with and I had copied 347 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:07.000 and pasted that code to like the fourth project and our consulting company and filing 348 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:10.880 a boss is like Jimmy, just like create a library for this, Like 349 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:14.119 this is just create a new GET package so we don't have to copy and 350 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.680 paste this code and if we do, like have any changes or features whatever, 351 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.319 then like everyone benefits at our our company, not just like the next 352 00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.160 one that gets copied and pasted. So that was kind of like if you 353 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:29.759 copy and paste code from the third clients, then maybe you should make up 354 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.079 a new GET package for that. So that's effectively what happened qualified, Yeah, 355 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.519 so that they kind of like it started out as very simple and like 356 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.200 hundred lines of code that could be done anywhere, and really most of it 357 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:47.160 was just like you were using dependency injection containers. So how do you make 358 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.759 sure if I send a request thing down that it gets dispatched to the right 359 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:55.200 object while we're using dependency injection to find the right thing to dispatch? Two, 360 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:57.359 that's annoying code to write to like hook those things up. So that 361 00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:00.400 got wrapped up into the package as well. So just started out like that 362 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.039 was just pure here's the code I've been copying and pasting over and over again. 363 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.200 But since then it kind of graduated to like, Okay, how are 364 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.640 people using this? How can we gather those lessons learned and then apply those 365 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:18.240 lessons into this library money. You've got tens of thousands of people using this? 366 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.759 Is this one hundred and forty million downloads? Like I didn't know. 367 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:26.200 I didn't know that many. Yeah, I'm just looking at the geth hub 368 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:30.000 dude, it's like, yeah, fifty four thousand, Yeah, like that. 369 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.119 These are big numbers. Yeah, I mean a lot of them. 370 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.200 Are you know my Azure function bots, you know, pumping those numbers in 371 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.680 the background. But I'm sure a few of those are. Are you running 372 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.319 a hundred million Azure bots? I just wanted to know, because that'd be 373 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:45.880 cool, be very cool. Oh No, I don't think the MVP perks 374 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.799 will cover that many. Yeah, that's exactly might blew your budget a little 375 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.640 bit, just a little Just looking through the code, I mean, yeah, 376 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:56.240 there's some really really cool stuff here. And I love the fact that 377 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:03.039 you're using generics and even out types out of tea. Oh, I don't 378 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.759 remember the difference, Like there's it is using the variances. Yeah, of 379 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.240 cod and contra. But it looks pretty I mean, yeah, there's some 380 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:14.519 stuff in here, but it does look very simple, and that that's what 381 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.319 makes it good. I guess, huh. That was the idea is because 382 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:21.759 again we're trying to distill down like what it's kind of the essence of our 383 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.119 systems, and it's like you send a request in and you get a response 384 00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:29.079 out like that's I mean, I'm I'm dealing with web apps most of the 385 00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:30.920 time, right It's it's all HDP request response. We're like, well, 386 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:34.279 how can we take that kind of one level below that, which is get 387 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.359 rid of the status codes and you know, streams and junk like that, 388 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.559 and then it becomes a pure like I send a data request in and I 389 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.720 expect to get a data response out. And that made it also really easy 390 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:51.640 for us to test our systems. So we we we shifted our testing. 391 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:55.799 We used to have these unit tests. They were all unit testing our controllers 392 00:26:55.799 --> 00:27:00.160 then like mocking those managers out or manager dependencies, and it was really hard 393 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.880 to understand what's going out of the system. So from there, with this 394 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.519 mediator pattern, we had all of our tests go through this like request in, 395 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:12.599 response out, which made it made our tests now very kind of simple 396 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:15.400 to understand. I pushed data in, what is the data get out? 397 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:21.960 And what happens behind the scenes I don't not my problem called the sort of 398 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.599 procedure or what I don't know, and both sides are testable that way, 399 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:26.680 right, you could have a simple invocation to chest to back end part of 400 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:33.319 that too, exactly. So we we we had this big shift from oh, 401 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:37.480 you know, the old testing pyramid with like the bottom is all your 402 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.039 unit tests and then you have like like an order of magnitude fewer integration tests. 403 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.319 We woud up kind of flipping that where we started out with all of 404 00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.039 our stuff being integration tests because I was like, the way I absolutely knew 405 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.680 the system work would be to send the data request in and validate the data 406 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.319 request out and if that look good, I don't like that's and then okay, 407 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.559 if there's like you know, more granul a lot I want to you 408 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.160 to test, we can do that. But then, like we our confidence 409 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:08.480 or system just doubled because we knew like from this very you know, pure 410 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.039 request response a level, it was all working the way we expected to. 411 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.200 It's almost assertion like it's like I send you this, you give me that, 412 00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:17.920 you said, I see you this, you give me that. If 413 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.599 you can do all of these things green light exactly right, So it could 414 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:27.119 just help simplify. Yeah, just the the window into the actual logic inner 415 00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:33.960 system became very uniform and very focused on each individual request from each other. 416 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.920 All right, So I see that you have notifications in here, which raised 417 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.359 my eyebrows a little bit. So notifications typically are asynchronous to me. And 418 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.119 then I look in the code and you have a wrapper class for a synchronous 419 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:52.119 notification handler. What on earth is that? So one of our like one 420 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.000 of our guiding principles when we're trying to build these kind of systems is like 421 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.759 okay. For the request and responsition system, it was always one one with 422 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.079 the kind of user interface though one request in, one response out, and 423 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:08.720 those were designed specifically for each individual kind of web end point in my system. 424 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:14.720 I didn't share those requests, didn't share the responses typically, but they're 425 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:15.880 always like one to one. I send one request in, it goes to 426 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:18.720 a handler through the mediator, and to get a response out that is tied 427 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:22.119 to that. But there were still sometimes that I did want like sort of 428 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:27.319 one to end so if I have a kind of request going out, it 429 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:33.319 may be going to multiple different handlers to be able to to do something with. 430 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:37.759 And then one example, one kind of good example we had is if 431 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.880 I have a set of business logic in my application, and if I'm doing 432 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.599 like DDD, then that's that's my quote domain layer. But if I want 433 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.640 to affects, if I want to affect change in some other part of my 434 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.559 system or some other system altogether, I don't want to necessary put that logic 435 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.119 right there, because that's kind of imperative go poke this other thing over there 436 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.839 to do the work. Instead, I would like to say, well, 437 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.440 this thing happened. I want to notify other folks that this thing has happened. 438 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.359 And then however they like to deal with it, it's completely up to 439 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:12.519 them. So it's still a synchronous sort of handling. That is, we 440 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:19.480 I'm invoking those notification handlers synchronously. It is a sync in the C sharp 441 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.960 sense, but it is synchronous from the I am awaiting the response of that 442 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.799 handler. Okay, but then when we're doing in those notification handlers, is 443 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.799 then like, well what am I affecting change another system? Like calling another 444 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:36.880 web afi am I then actually taking that notification and dropping it on a bus 445 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.400 as a service bus, and then notify actual external systems. I could do 446 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.079 whatever I want to like, instead of me having to directly invoke those systems 447 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.359 from my business logic, I can raise a notification and have that then translated 448 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.599 or done whatever I want to the outside world. So it's it's almost just 449 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:57.759 like another word for request and response, but it indicates that we're calling another 450 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:03.079 object that might be in an entirely different domain or a different stack exactly. 451 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:08.400 So it's it could be. I kind of think it's like like the regular 452 00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:11.640 sending the request is a you know, one to one. This is a 453 00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.799 one to many. But I really wouldn't call like pub sub because you're not 454 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.400 subscribing to things. I mean literally, all that's doing it is like going 455 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:25.200 to the container and lasking for all the different notification handlers of this notification and 456 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.720 then calling all of them like the very stupid thing under the covers. But 457 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:33.319 it gives you that decoupling of the handling of what like what to do with 458 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.240 that versus imperative like they'll flip this other bit. Yeah, I'm just saying, 459 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.000 well, my bit was flipped. Who Ever wants to do something else 460 00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:44.440 with that is completely up to them. Very cool. Thanks for clarifying, 461 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:51.640 And gentlemen are going interrupt for one moment for this very important message, and 462 00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:53.839 we're back. It's dot at Rocks. I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. 463 00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.920 Hey, talking to our friend Jimmy Bogert about Mediator. I just know 464 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.799 it's like mediators in your gid hub repository, Jay Bogart, but automapper is 465 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:09.680 not. Yeah, I don't know. Why don't you know, Jimmy. 466 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:15.319 Oh, I mean, like automapper wasn't my gid hub and then we had 467 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:20.559 then we're like, okay, well, there's multiple other kind of libraries related 468 00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:22.839 to it. It was easier to put those under an umbrella of the realization 469 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:28.480 versus my personal one. Where's mediator, Like there's not there's just that and 470 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.119 I don't want anything else. It's like I even recently classed down there was 471 00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:37.440 an extension for the Microsoft Dependency Injection container, right, and I noticed that 472 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:43.319 the downloads of that were almost identical to the downloads of the main library. 473 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.079 So I'm like, they're always taking it. Why I have a superpository? 474 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:47.559 So even classes, there were two and now there's one. It's like the 475 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.759 Highlander sort of rule. Now there's one. Yeah, where I see an 476 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:58.519 automapper, you have stuffer any framework stuff or oh data, and it becomes 477 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.200 a nuisance. So rather than have them all listed mixed in with everything else 478 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:05.160 and getting issues because it can't find stuff. Right, but you know, 479 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.960 this is good. This is like a lesson in how to evolve things that 480 00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:12.519 become too complex. That's just that's my goal here. I'm like, I 481 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.319 don't want any more headaches and open source head eggs. Like then just kind 482 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.839 of a forcing function that I can't make it more complicated. It is a 483 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:25.640 It is an interesting point that this opinionated approach to software comes from experience that 484 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.680 the more stuff you build, the more you realize, you know, I 485 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.319 kind of really want to make this thing. Just do this thing, and 486 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:36.759 if you need to do something else, you should use something else. I 487 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.759 was another huge I mean that's from the design of this liber mediator, the 488 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:43.559 whole Like I copied and paste the code several times, like automapper did come 489 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.480 out of a project, but after it was done. In that project, 490 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:52.440 I added so many features that I never used personally right, which is super 491 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:54.079 fun. When someone comes with a bug and I'm like, oh, actually, 492 00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:57.440 I have no idea how this is supposed to be used. I just 493 00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.359 kind of like, you know, chin scratch speculation, the one this might 494 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.279 be cool for somebody, and then the buck comes in and like, well, 495 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:07.880 I don't know if this is correct behavior not. So Mediator is like 496 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.719 purely now born out of I don't add features unless I have some immediate needs 497 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.039 on clients or projects whatever, and then you know, if there's something that 498 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:19.760 I think it may need, then like I really have to make sure that's 499 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.719 I'm not well. I think the main thing is is somebody going to use 500 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.480 it well, depend on it in a meaningful way and more, and actually 501 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:30.480 think and exercise it enough that you know that it works correctly. Right. 502 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:35.400 I have to be super careful too, of changing the design of anything in 503 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:39.559 there, like automapp or I really didn't care too much about breaking the API 504 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:45.280 from time to time because I just devour devs. I'll figure it out. 505 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:50.079 You're fine, yeah, exactly. Mediator is like I live through the pain 506 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:54.039 of me breaking my own API. It's like you beat yourself up. It's 507 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.199 like a really super super careful about those sort of things, but I mean 508 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:00.039 it just happen from time to time, Like, oh gosh. One of 509 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:04.159 the bad ones recently was I had a cancelation token support, which I should 510 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.360 have had from the beginning, But like adding an extra parameter to an interface 511 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:13.039 where you have like a hundred implementations and on a project, I need to 512 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.480 get really good at reg x to like make this simple myself. Yeah, 513 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:21.599 no kidding, but well, this is always that thing of realizing how I 514 00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:24.480 missed this feature should have been in there in the beginning. When do we 515 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:30.199 commit the pain now or later? I mean, you were just talking about 516 00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.840 generics we had. I did a change where I added generic constraints because I 517 00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:37.880 thought it was not because we needed it, because I thought it would make 518 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:43.679 the code more correct, but instead just like pissed everybody off because it didn't 519 00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:49.320 add anything and it just broke stuff. Like it just silently broke stuff. 520 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.519 If you if you add the constraints, it's like suddenly it just won't it'll 521 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.400 compile. This is my mistake. Like it's still compiled, but just didn't 522 00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:00.639 work, and nobody knew why. It's like, well, whoops, don't 523 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.119 do that again either. Yeah, then, and that's just the the classic 524 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:07.599 architectural problem, right if like do I do I need this now? Well, 525 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.719 I you know, I'm probably not going to need it later exactly. 526 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:13.400 Like it's really hard to anticipate. At the same time, it's like and 527 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.360 you always regret it. It was like, oh, I do need this, 528 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:16.840 and I didn't do it back then, and now it's going to be 529 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.559 harder to implement. Yeah. One of the fun things about this project though, 530 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.320 has been it that just like seeing how the like the crazy ways people 531 00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.599 try to use this thing, and like half my issues are like just don't 532 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.840 don't do that, Like you're you're you're well passed the boundaries of what I 533 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:37.280 would consider like appropriate useless library and like if it's if it's painful, then 534 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:44.360 like maybe don't do that, right, Like you're you're abusing it. I 535 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:52.280 just don't hurts when I do this. Don't don't do it. I love 536 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.960 it. It's it's so much fun. Do you actually work much on automat 537 00:36:55.079 --> 00:37:00.679 or these days? Uh, It's like my open source work is almost like 538 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:02.760 it's ninety five percent determine on what my clients are needing at the time. 539 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:07.199 I just don't I'm not a hobbyist OSS developer. I mean I spend time 540 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.599 like up doing updates and like issues. But I can only code for what's 541 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:15.440 in front of me. And if the people in front of me don't need 542 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.440 something done, then like I won't. I just won't spend my time doing 543 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.639 something speculatively because I had so much. Yeah, I mean, do you 544 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:28.320 do need recreational coding these days? Really? Are you just working? I 545 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:35.440 mean, I this this coding examples for like conference talk scout as recreational. 546 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.239 Yeah, I guess that's as close as you get in the end. You 547 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:42.639 know, we don't make a living from conference talks. They have some benefits, 548 00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:47.079 No, I mean I don't, not not especially, It's just I've 549 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:52.000 got you know, children now, so like they Yeah, you're your hands 550 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:53.840 are plenty full, friend, and I get that. And it is interesting 551 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:58.800 you see how we cycle in our lives between these different things. Yeah, 552 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:00.800 you know, part of selling this house is I a whole lot of home 553 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:04.920 assistant in this house and I am been writing a manual for the new owner 554 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.000 to live with home assistant and just just got to take all that equipment with 555 00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:10.719 you, Like these are my switches I would break the house, you know, 556 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:16.079 and and they actually you know that the realtors sold the house on the 557 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:20.679 back of some of these automations, you know, the whole just walking and 558 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:23.440 walking in the room and say play jazz and it play jazz like they like 559 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:28.760 that stuff. How do you leave it behind? By the way, And 560 00:38:28.760 --> 00:38:30.639 this has totally got nothing to do with anything. But so I've now made 561 00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:36.599 the list of all of the different accounts I have to migrate, and and 562 00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:44.480 it's a dozen. There's only one one that has a formal transfer ownership concept. 563 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.400 Well you can actually say, hey, I'm selling this equipment to someone 564 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.880 configured as it is. It's so NOS the audio guys. Yeah, so 565 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:57.639 yeah, there's a bunch of so nos integrated in the house, works really 566 00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:00.119 well, no reason to move it. Why would you break that? And 567 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:04.360 they actually have an infrastructure a setup where it's like give me the new account. 568 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.440 There they agree. Stuff leaves your account, but you keep the configure. 569 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.079 You know, I got a lot of stuff tuned up perfectly with the 570 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:14.079 house. You don't want to lose any of these configurations. None of the 571 00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:16.639 others have that. Some of them are. Some of the others. You 572 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:21.360 can create a new account to it and then move stuff over to it, 573 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.039 but not really on migration and I'll just delete myself out of it. Some 574 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.719 of them are like, nope, start over. Yeah, that's just painful, 575 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:34.679 not your problem. Sorry, total digrections. Stuff that's on my mind 576 00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:37.840 right now. Yeah, that's okay. So we're not going to see in 577 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:44.480 Copenhagen, I see, uh no, I got accepted to they sat Louis 578 00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:49.840 dead upcomp so show Yeah, I've done that. Show might see the Cardinals. 579 00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.719 Who knows it's time? Yeah, without a doubt. Do you do 580 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:58.400 talk some media or I didn't even check. They're always tied into the problems 581 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:00.320 I was trying to solve because I've done I I've been no talks on automapper 582 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.360 or mediator. It's always in service of like we came up with this tool 583 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:07.800 to help solve this problem, and the problem we were having was that when 584 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:09.320 I talked about earlier like these controllers are too big, we need to split 585 00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:15.079 things out. And so when I talk about like architectural concepts that that helps 586 00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:16.280 solve, it's really like, oh, and if you want to make this 587 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:21.159 easier in yourself, that you don't have to like figure all your container junk 588 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.239 Yeah, there's this thing here that well just like kind of skip past that 589 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:28.000 part makes that piece easier, which I mean makes a lot of sense. 590 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.639 Right, that's supposed to be the way that open source projects emerge, right, 591 00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:36.239 and how they get maintained. And I think it's wildly credible too to 592 00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:38.079 say, hey, I don't talk about my project. To talk about my 593 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.960 project, I talked about a problem and how I solved it with something that 594 00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:44.800 became a project. Right. The other thing we noticed as well others, 595 00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:50.119 another just kind of funny aside is my projects seemed to unearth more bugs and 596 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.800 Microsoft libraries than anyone else I know. So like Mediator has exposed a lot 597 00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:00.280 of bugs and the MICROSOFTDI containers because if people just doing stuff that I wasn't 598 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.280 quite expecting, or things that like other containers support out of the box, 599 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.800 but like Microsoft didn't need it, so they didn't build it. The same 600 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:14.800 thing happened with Automapper automapp prizes like link supports, and we have uncovered more 601 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:17.840 bugs and enerny frameworks link Provider than anyone else I know, because like we're 602 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:22.440 just building these crazy link queries behind the scenes and shoving God over to the 603 00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:23.960 you know, to make sequel and they're like, oh, what is this 604 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:29.559 you just gave me? Like sorry, yeah, generated link query to become 605 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:35.760 a generated sequel query doesn't always go. Well, is this whisper stuff? 606 00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.360 Right? I whispering? You're hear you whispering easier? Is it the same? 607 00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:45.440 I don't think it's the same. But when it works well and again, 608 00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:49.320 it's like, and you probably made the product better in the process, 609 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.239 because like, this expression should have worked. Why didn't it work? I 610 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.119 mean I had a I had a poor request open on the Microsoft TI container 611 00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:00.599 that was finally merged after I think four and a half years. Wow. 612 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:06.280 And that's after going through like I think the third repository because they went through 613 00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.360 their like several consolidation efforts, so like this issue had to keep getting recreated, 614 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:14.679 like and first over here and first first one over there. But it 615 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.119 was something to do with the variant stuff. They had a bug in there 616 00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:22.880 how they were doing generic variants and it broke scenarios for us, and it 617 00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:24.039 was a valid scenario to me. So people are doing this thing with the 618 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:31.599 notifications where they would have something like a invoice approved notification, but then they 619 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:37.719 would make that notification implement interfaces like I auditable or I loggable, and so 620 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:44.039 they would look for all the auditable notifications to make sure those got audited. 621 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:46.559 But something broke with that, like it couldn't handle that like kind of level 622 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.119 of indirection. So it stuff like yeah, I don't know if it's a 623 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.840 valid use of container, but it should work and it doesn't. So and 624 00:42:54.280 --> 00:43:00.440 they try to ditch you more than once by moving their repository off this way 625 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.719 for a repository shell game area. If we move the project, maybe he'll 626 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:07.559 leave us alone. None of the DII container authors like have many good feelings 627 00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:13.079 for me because they keep getting issues open and their repositories to support something that 628 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.519 people are doing with my stuff. And like, right, I noticed that 629 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.119 you have a face for I stream request, so you're, oh, that's 630 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:23.000 a new one. Yeah, you're embracing streaming. So so I said it 631 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:27.239 was simple, but you have these like every time you think I need to 632 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:30.360 write something to support oh what about this, I look in there it is 633 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:35.480 okay. That was still one though I actually had a real world project scenario 634 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:37.400 on that one. Then I wouldn't put it in if I didn't actually need 635 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:40.360 it, because it was like you know, with a regular request response. 636 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.079 When you get the response, the server is done, right, it's done 637 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:50.559 doing the work, and you get this data object that's that's finished. Well 638 00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:53.360 you can, yeah, you have to yield it at some point. But 639 00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:58.719 the stream stuff was like, well, you're not really You're getting an eye 640 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.960 Oh god, I and stream innumerables innumerable, I forget the name of the 641 00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:06.199 interface. I A sinking numerable. That's the one, thank you so much. 642 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:08.719 So yeah, it's like it's not done yet, and even like innumerables 643 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:14.199 aren't quite done yet, like I'd still connected to the server potentially. But 644 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:19.760 our use case was we were doing on demand real time et l from a 645 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:23.079 huge on prem database to like our new micro service database in the cloud, 646 00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:27.559 and it was too big and complex to try to etail the whole database is 647 00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:30.679 once. So we said, okay, the first time we user hits this, 648 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:37.199 we're going to stream the data from just their their data into our system 649 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:39.599 so we don't have to do everyone all at once, which should just be 650 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:45.559 too complicated. So we hooked that up to another library with mind. We 651 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.000 don't have to talk about it, but it's one called bulk Rider, which 652 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:52.320 is basically linked to Sequel book copy. That's a nice little tool. It 653 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:58.480 will innumerable a book copy operation. So I'm only loading in like n number 654 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.880 of records at a time using this equal bolt copy library the Microsoft has cool 655 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:07.199 so limit. I could stream you know, thousands or tens of thousands of 656 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.159 records through link in etl and like you know mill seconds through this process as 657 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:15.079 well as like transforming as I go. But at the end I needed to 658 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:21.760 stream it out through an API to our server. So we thought, well 659 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.320 we Microsoft now has gRPC support, which also has async or innumerable supports, 660 00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:30.639 so we're able to stream all of that through this mediator pattern all the way 661 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:35.880 out to the consuming clients to be able to stuff it into the database instead 662 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:37.679 of having to you know, load tens of thousands of records at a time. 663 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:44.440 It's only you know async in numerables the whole like async numerable turtles all 664 00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:46.159 the way down. It's that's really where that came from, was like you 665 00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:52.119 know, all these Microsoft stacks, asp net core and their g RPC stuff 666 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:55.760 now supports async and numerables. We're not keeping not loading up all the results 667 00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.679 in memory. It's streaming back out to the clients and so this was just 668 00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:04.840 to support those kinds of scenarios. And also in that list of things that 669 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.760 you could support that you have API contracts, in gRPC contracts, but you 670 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:13.920 also have Blazer with no sort of any any you know, explanation as to 671 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:22.360 how or why you would support Blazer because that's all UI. Yeah, it 672 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.679 is. So in the cases where you do have this kind of like I 673 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:30.840 don't want to stick everything in the Blazer page. I want to like shovel 674 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.239 it off to like something else, then it kind of goes into there. 675 00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.119 But it is just cross this boundary because I've had folks like another example is 676 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:45.639 like Razor pages or Azure functions were it's already kind of contained in a class, 677 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.519 So like why what what advantage does it give you? So for me, 678 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:52.360 like I don't use this pattern and Azure functions because I'm like I'm already 679 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.559 I'm already at the scope of a function. Like having another level of directionn't 680 00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.320 really do a whole lot for me. All right, So you meant to 681 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.599 say Blazer server there please are server? Yes, thank you? Yes? 682 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.239 All right? So yeah, you're on the server side. Yes, you 683 00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:07.960 have access to the database and you don't have an API layer, but you 684 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.599 still have some kind of manager in the back end that's going to do stuff. 685 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.800 This is a really good solution for that. Yeah, yeah, cool. 686 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:17.599 But when I into these, when they get to these sort of functional 687 00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:22.639 frameworks, I tend not to use this because I'm like, I'm I'm already 688 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:24.599 there, one class one method, good to go. Yeah, you don't 689 00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:30.559 need to add complexity if none is required. Yeah, well and excited. 690 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:32.880 Part of this all comes back to conflicts. You're not having conflicts? Yeah, 691 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.760 no, yah bother And the only time I've really run into situations like 692 00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.800 that is if the function they give me is still way too tied to whatever 693 00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:45.159 framework they're in. Yeah, then like, okay, then I'm just gonna 694 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.480 dit that one extra step of pure data in per data out versus it's all 695 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.760 other cruft that's going around there. But really you should be pushing that problem 696 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:52.920 back to them, going, guys, you need to invite a little here. 697 00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:59.519 Yeah, and then they yell at you that it doesn't work, and 698 00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.800 they're and their cat care business elsewhere, and you're like, it's free. 699 00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:07.400 Exactly, give you money, pack, I'll give you all the money you 700 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.119 pay. So what's next in your world? Man, what's in your inbox? 701 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:14.719 Oh? Man, I'm like the past year or so, I've been 702 00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:23.159 like Elbow deep and and modernization of ESPNT NBC to core Orp Corp. Done 703 00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:29.039 at six, so a lot of like cloud migration, and let's also get 704 00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:32.760 it off of asp net four eight and get it onto a net seven eight 705 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.440 whatever you know? And why six not seven? Because I started the project 706 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:42.400 a year ago before a relationship just that was it. I gotta enough to 707 00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.079 do. I don't need to switch frameworks now. So I get to I 708 00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:46.679 get to see like these projects are using my libraries. So I'm like, 709 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:50.360 oh, now I have to go through these migration processes because I have to 710 00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.880 upgrade the code from you know, whatever I thought was a good idea. 711 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.320 You get to take advantage of the new features of C sharp too. I 712 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:58.760 mean one of the things I'm when I'm talking to folks who are coming out 713 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:01.119 of four eight now and looking at seven project, like your four versions of 714 00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:06.400 C sharp behind, Like there's some good stuff you get by getting away from 715 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:08.679 four eight. Yeah. Step one, take everything out of startup, put 716 00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:15.480 it in program and make and make what do they call those you know, 717 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:21.639 the controllers that are right there yeah, yeah, exactly without move all your 718 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:27.320 controllers into these anonymous yet school boys sex just copy and paste everybody. Yeah, 719 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:30.079 probably got an Owen start up change six point zero, seven point zero, 720 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:37.880 and you're done. It's fine, We're fine. You know. It's 721 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.239 one recurring theme on the run as side. We were talking about, Hey, 722 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:45.480 you know what's good, wait another version, because the migration tools get 723 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:50.239 better, the validators get better, like everything will get easier. If you 724 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:55.199 don't see an immediate need for this feature right now, there's really there's strong 725 00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:59.039 incentive to wait a little longer too you really need it, because it will 726 00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:05.280 only get easier over time. And so this codebase was started with my previous 727 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:12.000 company back in twenty ten or so. So it's like all the mistakes of 728 00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:16.679 Jimmy past that Oh yeah, you you hate your past self, Like what 729 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:21.079 was that idiot think? Yeah? Yeah, So that's like it's all like 730 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:23.000 you know, in tier sort of stuff, which isn't bad, but like 731 00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.280 I can see like, oh gosh, they still got the managers and the 732 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:29.480 repositories and all this stuff, and so it's it's hard to test. It's 733 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:34.920 all coupled and yeah, all the things that I realized we had fixed like 734 00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:37.199 and subsequent to that project. But it's kind of a snapshot in time, 735 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:40.760 right what we thought was, Yeah, I mean it's good to be kind 736 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:44.360 to yourself. It's like that's what we thought at the time. We have 737 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:46.760 learned since then and now I have to clean that up. Hey, before 738 00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:53.039 you go call back to the to the comment, do you get many contributors 739 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:58.400 in the sense of like financial things or anything for automapp or mediator, Like 740 00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:01.000 does that happen? Oh? So, I mean I do have my geth 741 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:08.440 hub sponsor link on those projects, but the levels are basically tied to different 742 00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:14.480 qualities of alcohol you could buy me, so like one hundred dollars a pretty 743 00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:19.320 decent bottle of whiskey and that you know, you know down like craft beers 744 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:23.599 levels or just like pb PBR at the bottom PBR level. So, I 745 00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:30.400 mean I have received one significant contribution. That is, uh, my project 746 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:36.440 or automapp or was recipient of the ADBs dot nets open source thing last year. 747 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.840 Thank you. I don't really know what the state of they where they 748 00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:45.760 are now because they had a big contraction and their team so like, oh, 749 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:49.719 they did a few donations and then I think I don't know if they 750 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.880 just saw like dot and that's not a big deal for them or whatever, 751 00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:54.599 but just the one. But I'm I don't expect that or seek it out 752 00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:59.400 either, because no, no, I mean I always get the sense with 753 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:00.679 you, Gym ever talk to you, it's like you're just busy doing the 754 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:05.400 work for your customers. Yeah, and this other stuff comes out the side 755 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:07.280 of that, and that's nice, but it's not your focus. Yeah. 756 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:12.239 I just coming from a product background as well, I knew like I would 757 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.000 have to. I have to design for the people that are actually using it 758 00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:19.199 that I could talk to and get feedback from. If I just design something 759 00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:22.559 socially open source libraries like you put it out there, but how do you 760 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:27.039 how do you get that feedback from people using it? And so I can't, 761 00:52:27.320 --> 00:52:29.920 you know, I can't sign an NDA with everyone that comes up and 762 00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:31.480 says I have this problem. Okay, let's really dig in to see what's 763 00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:36.079 going on there. It really I don't know. I don't want to do 764 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.480 the support thing either, So I just design for what's in front of me, 765 00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:42.400 the people that are paying me to do work for them, and then 766 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:45.960 I will then I know that whatever I'm building will work for them because that's 767 00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:47.800 what they're paying me to do. And if I just put out there and 768 00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:51.880 other people can use it and they get value from it, that's just kind 769 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:53.840 of icing in the cake. But the primary focus for me is the people 770 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:58.199 that actually pay to have this work, that are paying you. I mean 771 00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:00.760 that being said, you have had a few tributors to Mediator over the years. 772 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:05.719 I don't know that they're substantial. Oh yeah, code wise, of 773 00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:07.400 course, no. No, yeah, for the code. Code is a 774 00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:12.679 different thing because it's time and that's more more, more difficult. And usually 775 00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:16.000 I mentioned they're solving their problem too by giving you a pull request. Yeah, 776 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:20.920 I just I mean it still it takes time for me to understand. 777 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.039 So what problem they're trying to solve, and is this the problem that should 778 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:27.480 be solved my library or is an actual issue whatever? Because there's half the 779 00:53:27.519 --> 00:53:29.800 time the issues are raised. I'm like, it's not me, it's the 780 00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:32.519 container. Go figure it out over there. There's nothing I did. I'm 781 00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.360 not going to fix your broken container for you with peace software. That's not 782 00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:38.440 how that works. Yeah, it's like it's just go and then make them 783 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:45.960 mad over there. That's fine, share the anger, Yeah, well, 784 00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.880 Jimmy, thanks for sharing this with us. Mediator. Looks very cool and 785 00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:53.800 I can think of at least two customers that are going to take a look 786 00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:58.159 at it right now, So thank you, all right, thanks for having 787 00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.679 me. I always happen to be on all right, We'll see you next 788 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:25.119 time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's 789 00:54:25.159 --> 00:54:30.039 Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post 790 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:35.840 production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the 791 00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:42.519 cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt nt R o 792 00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:46.880 c ks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 793 00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:52.440 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in 794 00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:55.280 September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 795 00:54:55.480 --> 00:55:00.599 They keep us in business. Now, go write some code you next time. 796 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:08.559 I got a treadmittal bands, Dolly and see the summer time is hard 797 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:09.840 than my tax