1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,400 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,240 private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,399 we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,440 up now at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard. 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,000 Here. As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,960 person conferences around the world. DC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,280 Go to Eddcporto dot com to register and check out the full lineup of 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,600 conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,159 the Purple Blazer guy from Microsoft, letting you in on a little secret about 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,920 my friend Carl Franklin. You know the guy who started dot net Rocks, 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,719 the first podcast about dot net in two thousand and two, The guy who's 13 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:03,040 been teaching Blazer on YouTube since twenty Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,079 Carl's joined up with the folks from Code in a Castle to teach a week 15 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:12,159 long hands on Blazer class at Are you ready to get this at a castle 16 00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:19,040 slash villa in Tuscany. It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built 17 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:26,879 in. Carl's calling it the Blazer master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the 18 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,920 ground up, finishing the week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. 19 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,920 Since the training happens for only four hours in the morning over six days, 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,920 you can bring your significant other your partner with you and you should right 21 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,959 that this part of Italy is absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see and 22 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:52,560 do and and Larry and Marco from Code in a Castle are organizing daily activities 23 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,840 both at the castle and in the area. The castle is in the Marema, 24 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,760 a less touristed region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country as 25 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,479 well as easy access to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, wine 26 00:02:07,479 --> 00:02:13,560 and olive oil around every corner. Breakfast is included every day. There will 27 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,919 be two communal dinners at the castle book ending the experience, and most other 28 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:23,360 meals and all activities are included. And did I mention you'll learn Blazer in 29 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:28,599 person from Carl Franklin Listen. Space is limited and for very good reason. 30 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:34,439 This is quality training in a beautiful setting. Go to code in Acastle dot 31 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:40,680 com slash Blazer twenty twenty three. That's bla z o R two zero two 32 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:46,199 three to take advantage of this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an 33 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:53,520 unforgettable week of La dolce vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new 34 00:02:53,599 --> 00:03:09,680 technology. Welcome back to dot net and rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, and 35 00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:14,479 I'm Richard Campbell, and Jimmy Bogart is here. We haven't talked to him 36 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:16,319 in a while. It's gonna be fun, fun, fun, I say. 37 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,560 But first, Richard, how are you you all moved out yet? 38 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:23,439 Just about moved? Yeah? Final, you know, of course we're recording 39 00:03:23,439 --> 00:03:24,800 a couple of weeks in advance, sort of the last things we're moving. 40 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,840 By the time this show publishes, I think we'll be a week away from 41 00:03:29,879 --> 00:03:34,360 handing over the keys and living on the coast full time. So we've done 42 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,800 the slow move like we've spent weeks at it, just taking truckloads up each 43 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,520 week with our pickup, and in some ways it's been very therapeutic because bit 44 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:46,280 by bitness. House feels less and less ours. Yeah, you know, 45 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:50,639 when you take all the stuff off the walls and you're emptying out rooms and 46 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:53,960 stuff, it just sort of becomes a house adminally, it's a house we 47 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,080 built back in the day. But and it looks like it needs a rena 48 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,360 now, like it's been fourteen years since we built it. So the cabinet 49 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:05,080 needs to refinished and the floor should be redone, and I'd replace that carpet 50 00:04:05,159 --> 00:04:10,280 and I paint those walls and it's not my problem. Somebody else is gonna 51 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:16,040 own it three four weeks, So that's that. I had my uh Pop 52 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:23,399 three zero Studios opening grand opening party last Saturday. Yeah, it's not really 53 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:27,720 done, but it's pretty close. Let's be clear. Nothing's ever done. 54 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,560 Nothing's ever done. It's like building a software apple, you know, building 55 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,360 an app. Is it done? What is done? Well? There there 56 00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:36,600 is a definition of done, and it's not there yet. Basically, we 57 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:40,879 have the you know, the walls are great, the floor is awesome, 58 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:45,680 the tram is done. They are conditioning unit is in and half of the 59 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:51,279 room has sound absorptive ceiling tiles on them and they're hung like they're custom made. 60 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:57,160 They're hung so they're two inches from the top and that means that sound 61 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,560 gets trapped above them as well as below them. But only half the room 62 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,839 was done in it's just because we just didn't finish that and we had to 63 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:06,399 had to pick a day. So I mean, can you record in it 64 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,120 yet because you kind of need that stuff? Well I could, but I 65 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,240 don't want to move everything in there until all of those panels are up because 66 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:15,639 everything will be in the way, you know. Yeah, yeah, but 67 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:20,600 it's very exciting. You know, we've got that nice wooden floors and they 68 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:24,680 need to be refinished, but you would never do that in living it like 69 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,079 it's such a it's such a mass. Yeah yeah. And so the one 70 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,240 chance the new owner is going to get to redo the floor is you know, 71 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:34,279 in this window when we're out before they go in. It's like, 72 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:42,839 you should do this floor now. Oh the joys of building and tearing down. 73 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,560 But it's funny, my reflexing, this place is no longer so much 74 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,439 my place, and it's a place I would renovate and how we'd fix it 75 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:50,480 up, like the things that it needs, because after fourteen years since we've 76 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,079 built it, it just like it needs things. Yeah, sure, well, 77 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,560 let's get things started with better no a framework or all the crazy music, 78 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,360 you know, as if I didn't need another project, what are you 79 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:16,199 doing? I decided to start a new little YouTube and maybe even TikTok show 80 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:24,639 called the Blazer Puzzle. Okay, okay, So every week and Jeff Fritz 81 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,959 is going to be doing it with me. Every week, we're going to 82 00:06:29,079 --> 00:06:31,800 create a little demo, you know, a little Blazer application that you can 83 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,600 download and either it's either going to be a puzzle, a coding challenge or 84 00:06:36,759 --> 00:06:41,800 find the bug kind of thing. Why doesn't this work? Can you make 85 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:46,240 the architecture better? Just something very simple, right? And then people email 86 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,959 me their answers and I'll pick one at random from all the correct answers and 87 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,279 send them a mug, A what mug you say, a Blazer puzzle mug, 88 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,360 so that they don't even really exist yet, but they were. I'm 89 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:02,480 sure they'll be great. Yeah, sure it would be great. And the 90 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:08,279 only way you can get them is by answering them correctly. So that's what 91 00:07:08,439 --> 00:07:12,439 I've that's what I'm doing right now. So it will be at blazer Puzzle 92 00:07:12,519 --> 00:07:15,120 dot com probably by the time you read this. And I hope you have 93 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:19,480 fun with it. I keep thinking about actually making a Blazer puzzle, Like 94 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:23,120 what would that app look like where you had a bunch of pieces and you 95 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,839 could move them around. Oh yeah, yeah, it's more like a puzzler. 96 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:30,120 It's more like a gotcha solver kind of thing. Yeah, figure stuff 97 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,160 out. Yeah, I kind of like the idea of a you know, 98 00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:35,000 a picture of you in a different picture of Fritz and the logo and then 99 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,279 it breaks into puzzle pieces and falls to the bottom of the screen. You're 100 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:44,120 not far from the actual test video that we've created already to introduce it. 101 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,120 It kind of does look like that, good guess. Yeah. Well, 102 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,399 it's also also you know, it speaks to the fact that I didn't don't 103 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:56,079 have an original idea to save my life, so I'm not gonna get there. 104 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,759 You know, we had to. We had to fall in fall in 105 00:07:59,759 --> 00:08:03,439 love calling you got it. You've got the domain name. You pretty much 106 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:05,920 dictates what you're gonna do pretty much. So anyway, that's it. Who's 107 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,839 talking to us today? Richard? I grabbed a comment off a show eighteen 108 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:11,879 fifty two which we did just back in June with Sean Walker, and we 109 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:15,680 were talking about going full time and open source. Yeah, you know, 110 00:08:15,759 --> 00:08:18,959 just the sort of thing Jimmy Bogar, we'ld never do. Never. But 111 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,079 we had some great comments on that show. And I mean, it's really 112 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:24,240 fun to talk to Sean too, because he really came in it from a 113 00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:28,319 yet another angle. As we keep exploring this, what does the open source 114 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:35,759 ecosystem look like today? And I'm gonna I'm gonna presume this is a pseudonym 115 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:41,120 because it's q r y s, which to me reads like queries, you 116 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:45,399 know, except for a distinct lack of vowels. Well that why doesn't seem 117 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:46,840 like a vowel in necessary? So Queery says, hey, thanks for the 118 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,600 great show. I can confirm that for companies it's really a hurdle to donate 119 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:54,039 to open source projects, even if they use and appreciate open source tools and 120 00:08:54,039 --> 00:08:58,120 libraries. Like my small employer, which is only about twenty people. However, 121 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,159 we have now I decided to handle it this way. Each year, 122 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:07,679 employees can nominate their most valuated or appreciated open source project. The one that 123 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:11,440 eventually gets chosen gets a one time donation of about a thousand Swiss francs. 124 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,159 I just checked that's like eleven us. Okay, I think it's good service 125 00:09:16,159 --> 00:09:20,039 one example of how to overcome the mental hurdle for such payments. Because it's 126 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,559 only just once a year, they are somewhat justified by the company as an 127 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:28,399 organization, and the company might even advertise this, although we currently don't. 128 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,759 Yeah, I don't know how you'd advertise that well, other than that hole 129 00:09:31,759 --> 00:09:35,679 wearing your culture on the sleeve. And we support open source thing. But 130 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,320 you know, a twenty person company committing a grand a year to an open 131 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,840 source project, that's pretty legit. Yeah, it's legit. So Queries, 132 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,279 thank you so much for your comment. I don't know that's your name. 133 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,759 I'm pretty sure it's not, but thanks anyway, And a copy of music 134 00:09:48,759 --> 00:09:50,559 co Buy is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 135 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,480 of music Cobey, I read a comment on the website at donet Rocks dot 136 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:54,799 com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there, and if you 137 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,320 comment there and everything in the show, we'll send you a copy of music 138 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,840 Buy. And you can follow us on Twitter if you like. But the 139 00:10:00,879 --> 00:10:05,360 real fund is happening over on Mastodon. I'm Carl Franklin at tech hub dot 140 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,279 social and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. Send us a two and 141 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,919 we might even read it. Hey, let's bring back Jimmy Bogard, shall 142 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,600 we? Jimmy is the creator and maintainer of the popular open source libraries Auto 143 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:24,679 Mapper and Mediator That's Media t R. Jimmy's an independent software consultant based in 144 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:31,080 Austin, Texas. He's received the MVP Award every year since two thousand and 145 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:33,600 nine, and he joins us again today. Hey, Jimmy, how are 146 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:37,559 you doing? Okay? Like Tony'll earlier, just trying to survive in this 147 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,840 horrible heat you've having here in Austin, Texas. It's it's miserable, like 148 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,200 can't walk the dog, can't do anything yet, it's just dangerously hot, 149 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,039 right, like not, it's not even funny. It's just yeah, there's 150 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,799 like don't go outside between like three and sexs. Just don't. Yeah. 151 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:58,799 Right, you start to understand why desert cultures have a siesta, right, 152 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:03,440 because what else are you going to do? You mentioned trying to live without 153 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,240 AC in those conditions? Oh man, Yeah, get a get a fan 154 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,960 of a block of ice and good luck. Yeah, Well, the last 155 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,799 time we talked to you on the show was twenty nineteen. It was too 156 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,120 long ago, June twenty nineteen. Are we saying to garls I got on 157 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:22,360 today? It's like, you know, we don't talk to Jimmy often enough, 158 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:26,879 and the those the before times it was yeah, when we went to 159 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:30,399 offices and all that stuff. Yeah. Well, anyway, we were talking 160 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,320 about messaging architecture and I can't remember if we talked about media. You're probably 161 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,440 working on it at that time, but it wasn't the complete focus of it. 162 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,080 But why don't you start us off with the mediator pattern? What is 163 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,720 it? Why do we need it? Sure? So, I think just 164 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,399 as a context of where this kind of came from, it was a kind 165 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,799 of an evolution of us building larger systems and having a dealing with the complexities 166 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,639 of just the kind of busines, this logic and code we're having to manage, 167 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,559 and so the j the gist of the mediator pattern is that if you've 168 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:11,159 got some like like UI code or something that is needing to interact with some 169 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:16,440 services, instead of you trying to talk to those services directly, you go 170 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:20,200 through sort of a middleman. And the middleman is that mediator and so instead 171 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,600 of you like depending directly on those services that are doing the work for you, 172 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,559 you kind of package up what you want into a request object, you 173 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,879 send it to the mediator, it dispatches to the handling logic, and then 174 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,480 finally returns yet response. So it's a little bit different, but kind of 175 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:39,919 solves the same problem as MVVM. Right, A view model kind of does 176 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,519 that, but it doesn't have as explicit in architecture, Right, is that 177 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,320 what you think? Yeah? Exactly, these something these kind of they do 178 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,559 kind of compliment and go with each other. I mean, especially MVBM, 179 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,759 those those those things you're talking to are also stateful and then you know you're 180 00:12:56,879 --> 00:13:01,000 receiving events and communicating from the UI. When we're using this mediator pattern, 181 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,240 where we're usually in the kind of a more of a stateless land, it's 182 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:11,240 like a web NBC sort of place where the UI or the browser is already 183 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,440 sending this request and receiving a response back. And so this pattern was trying 184 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,440 to take it sort of one level below that and kind of get rid of 185 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:22,000 all the UI cruft and response codes and just say, well, what is 186 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:26,639 like just the sort of pure data end data out that we're dealing with on 187 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,919 all the different requests in our system, but it solves the same kind of 188 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:35,679 problem, which is tight compling. Yeah. I mean we we're always trying 189 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,039 to find kind of the holy grill of the pattern that will solve all the 190 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,759 complexity issues in our codebase, and I mean, nothing ever solves it completely, 191 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:43,559 but that's what we're looking at. Like we were using NBC and this 192 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:48,879 is like early early days of asp net NBC classic, I don't what you 193 00:13:48,919 --> 00:13:52,559 call, like the last one, and we just saw like our controllers were 194 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,279 getting big, like well, what do we do now? Or do we 195 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,000 put this junk that's piling up here? And so that, you know, 196 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:01,440 a lot of those kinds of concepts and ideas emerge from just dealing with these 197 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,000 big controller classes, like how do we what do we do? How do 198 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,000 we deal with this sort of stuff? Yeah? What I usually do is 199 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,120 make a some sort of manager that I can inject into the controller so the 200 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:18,720 controller merely passes on and returns data, you know, and those managers, 201 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:24,080 I guess in the mediator pattern, those would just be objects that you send 202 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:26,840 messages to and get messages back from. How does that work with a controller? 203 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,399 Yeah, so we we started that. We started that exact path as 204 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:33,240 well, where we had these you know, every controller like you know, 205 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:37,240 I don't know, invoice control or had the invoice manager that had the business 206 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:43,840 object and all the all the NBC controllery stuff, action results and HP contexts 207 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,679 and those webby sort of things. Those are on the controller. But once 208 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:48,279 you got into like the pure business logict, I'm you know, I'm passing 209 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,720 data to something and then it does the work and it gives me some data 210 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,639 outs. We started that as a as these manager classes. Now suddenly those 211 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,200 manager classes started to get big as well, right, and then each of 212 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,679 the methods on the manager classes was tied to like directly tied to a single 213 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:11,440 action or kind of HTTP endpoint on the front end, right, So you're 214 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,279 not really gaining any decoupling, you're just moving it into another class. We 215 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,679 moved it into a different class. And we also noticed that this was in 216 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,440 the days of subversion, so like merge conflicts were a thing that we had 217 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,000 to worry about. So we are also having this issue that if you know, 218 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:31,159 we had new features coming on to a set of screens, then multiple 219 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:35,759 developers were working in these manager classes and having just merge conflict, and we 220 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,799 went back to the sort of the original sort of solid design, and there's 221 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,279 that the eye and solid was the interface segregation principle, and then general ideas 222 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:50,200 there is that you if you have an interface with multiple methods and they don't 223 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,000 really have much to do with each other and never called together on the same 224 00:15:54,039 --> 00:15:58,440 sort of requests. We found that each of those manager methods would only ever 225 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,080 called with one of the controller actions, right, So I thought, well, 226 00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:06,480 even though these all have to deal with like voices the logic inside of 227 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:07,600 there, it really don't have anything to do with each other. They're just 228 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,120 all globed together in a single file. So our first step was just to 229 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:15,759 remove each of those manager methods and sticking in its own class so that it 230 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,039 just was living by itself. And then if I needed to change the one 231 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,440 action, I had one place to go to for the business logic of that 232 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,200 one action that was separated from the UI, but also separated from the logic 233 00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:30,080 of other requests. But you were also talking about the merge conflict part of 234 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,799 this, but that separation and then because it was separate file, if you 235 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,279 I'm trying to think about it, did subversion make a difference there, Like 236 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:42,519 is get hub somehow better it merge conflicts. Get is better because you are 237 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:47,240 able to do a three way merge. You have what you both started with 238 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:49,639 and then like where you both ended, right, and Subversion you don't don't 239 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:55,480 really have. You only have like just constant, constant headaches. So part 240 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,200 of that was just the reaction of that, because I mean it kind of 241 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:00,240 hurts you in your heart when it's like changed the way I do my code 242 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:06,160 because of my tooling. Right, Oh there's I mean there are other issues 243 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,000 as well, like those are the old days, the horrible CS project merge 244 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,039 conflicts as well. So just like merge conflicts, Like, part of our 245 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,079 thing was like how do we separate the workouts of people working on features so 246 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,160 they're not stuffing in each other's toes? And so we started that thing of 247 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,400 just like, well, just split the manager into multiple methods and then each 248 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,079 methods in its own file and class. And if I have to change the 249 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,839 business logic for that one page, I'm not affecting anybody else. Nobody else 250 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:37,599 needs to know, you know all as well. I'm also reminded and I'm 251 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,039 sure if this many times is that every app has ugliness in it. It's 252 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:45,480 just a question of do you know where yours is? You know, like 253 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,079 you're gonna have to put some ugly somewhere, So how do you wrap it 254 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:55,599 in a relatively tidy package that people can deal with as spraying it all over 255 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,920 the whole app? In this case, you trade it off these giant manager 256 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,160 classes for lots of lots of little objects exactly that now you have to manage 257 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,440 you having to manage something. Yeah, we because the logic has to be 258 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:14,119 there, and that we we thought the idea of like having these managers as 259 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,200 well. It was like, well, we can now share logic between these 260 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,240 different things. But that was a you know, double edged sword. One 261 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,960 side of the store is actually much sharper than the other. Yeah, cut 262 00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:26,079 us much worse because we found that if we changed this logic that were shared 263 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:32,240 amongst multiple things, like suddenly I could have these unintended side effects. So 264 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:33,519 we were adding new features to the system, We're like, Okay, I 265 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:37,640 got to spend much more time figuring out how many I'm gonna make sure not 266 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,480 breaking anything before I'm able to just write code. So that's kind of another 267 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,799 side effect. We're like well, don't like, don't make the first thing 268 00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:48,000 you're doing sharing code. Make that be the exceptional case where you know it's 269 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:52,160 after the third time you've copied and pasted that logic like, Okay, maybe 270 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:55,359 this is something we should share but not share, but I'll do it up 271 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,279 front. So the mediator pattern came into play. Like, after us making 272 00:18:59,319 --> 00:19:03,319 these like single files, we took a step back, like these all look 273 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,400 very similar, but they're also different and their own like not like they're also 274 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,279 different for no reason whatsoever. So we were looking around at the time, 275 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,880 this is also the time that Greg Young was coming up with this whole like 276 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,039 CQRS concept of like stepparing out read and write objects, and so we looked 277 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:21,680 at these these classes like, well, this is doing that. It's separating 278 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,039 out like every request from each other. So the logic is the separated out 279 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,480 and so we we settled on this. We flipped through the old Gang of 280 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:34,119 Four book like there's got to be a solution for this, right And one 281 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,119 of the few times that I've looked in that book and actually found something useful 282 00:19:37,279 --> 00:19:41,960 was like, oh, instead of me having these like everything is a one 283 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:47,599 off whatever, I can have something mediate sending this request down, and so 284 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:52,519 instead of me depending directly on all these individual manager classes, instead I depend 285 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:57,400 on this one mediator class and I send a request for something, you know, 286 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,119 I request for data, request to do some work, and then I 287 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:06,480 get a single response back, and those individual manager classes got refactored into individual 288 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:11,240 request handlers from that mediator itself. So it's just a very natural kind of 289 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,839 refactoring progression for us to arrive at this pattern at the end, and you're 290 00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:18,400 saying that you send a message and get a response, but it's not asynchronous, 291 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,720 is it because you're in the web context here. Yeah. I even 292 00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:26,599 hesitate to call it a message because it doesn't have the traditional characters. There's 293 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,599 no head or there's no package or payload or whatever. So it's really we 294 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,880 called it a request objects. So it's a request dto if you will, 295 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,920 and I get back a response another dto or data transfer objects. We want 296 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,279 to make this very clear, like I'm sending kind of pure data in and 297 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:45,319 I'm getting pure data outs synchronous, and for exactly it's all a synchronous, 298 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,680 it's all in process. We're all just just trying to do like give us 299 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,920 one level separation between the thing doing the work and and like the pure kind 300 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,440 of request and response objects in and out. It's very pure data objects. 301 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,279 Yeah, you're also abstracting the transport off of that too. So if you 302 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:08,000 did want to do a messaging infrastructure or a saying systems and stuff, I 303 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,160 don't think it would be that big of a deal to support that. No, 304 00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:15,039 but okay, so there are I wouldn't say competitors, but some folks 305 00:21:15,079 --> 00:21:22,359 have been done like alternate implementations in this pattern and it becomes more formally realized. 306 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,000 There's another version of this kind of thing called a command dispatcher, and 307 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,000 I will go too far into it, but it's like a whole thing of 308 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,960 like, well, if you're in the business of like doing this whole uh, 309 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,559 you know, I don't care if it's a sync or not. It 310 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:36,599 could be durable or non durable messaging. You kind of go off on that 311 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,480 land. But I, on the heels of my other open source project, 312 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:48,200 Automapper, never try was ice strive to make this library have as few features 313 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,759 as possible, because because I realized like every new feature I added, I'd 314 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:56,079 have to support for years. I don't want to do that. I don't 315 00:21:56,079 --> 00:22:00,240 want to do that anymore. But let's make this as dumb the future main 316 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,799 factor ff of this, Yeah, like I really swung the pendulum. I'll 317 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,640 learn my lesson there. So this was like I wouldn't do that. There's 318 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,240 a couple of reasons. One is, if you look at it from a 319 00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:18,720 user experience perspective, there's a stark contrast in the expected responses of an asynchronous 320 00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:22,200 message versus a synchronous one. If I'm on a screen and I clicked the 321 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,279 button and it comes back to response saying yes, I you have submitted the 322 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:30,240 form and I've received it. Now you can see the results of that on 323 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:34,119 your screen. If it's asynchronous and it sends message to a Q, there's 324 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,160 no guarantee of when that work can be done, So the logical response you 325 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,680 get back is like we got your message. It'll be done sometime in the 326 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,920 future. We don't know when, but like thank you for your request versus 327 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,839 don't call us, we'll call you exactly. So like that the invoice example, 328 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,680 I click approve invoice, I go back to the list of invoices and 329 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,880 it shows approved. If I send them a submitted request to approve the invoice, 330 00:22:56,079 --> 00:23:00,759 it'll just say we have received your request, but that invoice is not 331 00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:03,160 approved yet. It's approved some time in the future, So don't I don't 332 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,640 try to swap those two up because it has a drastic impact to the user 333 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,400 experience. Yeah you could, though, You're just like I want if you 334 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,880 see folks using this pattern and they're like, oh yeah, and I can 335 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,480 swap in, you know, as your service bus, I'm like, wait 336 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,039 a second, that's going to have a huge impact on the UX because now 337 00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:26,039 they can't they don't see the results of their actions. So just be careful 338 00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:29,839 that you don't try to do that sort of thing. Right, So what 339 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,880 does the Mediator library have in it that gives me more than I can, 340 00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:40,599 you know, do just creating my own objects and interfaces to abstract these things 341 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,319 away, saving that thirty minutes of time, I guess. I mean even 342 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,839 when I created the library myself, I didn't want it again. I was 343 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,759 coming off of like autumn apper annoyance, and I like, I don't people 344 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:55,880 want all this stuff, and now they're asking me off for these features and 345 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,240 I don't want to, you know, say yes to everything, and so 346 00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:02,839 there's like I want to create this library to begin with and I had copied 347 00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:07,000 and pasted that code to like the fourth project and our consulting company and filing 348 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:10,880 a boss is like Jimmy, just like create a library for this, Like 349 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,119 this is just create a new GET package so we don't have to copy and 350 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,680 paste this code and if we do, like have any changes or features whatever, 351 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,319 then like everyone benefits at our our company, not just like the next 352 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,160 one that gets copied and pasted. So that was kind of like if you 353 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:29,759 copy and paste code from the third clients, then maybe you should make up 354 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:34,079 a new GET package for that. So that's effectively what happened qualified, Yeah, 355 00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:37,519 so that they kind of like it started out as very simple and like 356 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,200 hundred lines of code that could be done anywhere, and really most of it 357 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:47,160 was just like you were using dependency injection containers. So how do you make 358 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,759 sure if I send a request thing down that it gets dispatched to the right 359 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:55,200 object while we're using dependency injection to find the right thing to dispatch? Two, 360 00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:57,359 that's annoying code to write to like hook those things up. So that 361 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,400 got wrapped up into the package as well. So just started out like that 362 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:04,039 was just pure here's the code I've been copying and pasting over and over again. 363 00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:07,200 But since then it kind of graduated to like, Okay, how are 364 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,640 people using this? How can we gather those lessons learned and then apply those 365 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:18,240 lessons into this library money. You've got tens of thousands of people using this? 366 00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:21,759 Is this one hundred and forty million downloads? Like I didn't know. 367 00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:26,200 I didn't know that many. Yeah, I'm just looking at the geth hub 368 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:30,000 dude, it's like, yeah, fifty four thousand, Yeah, like that. 369 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,119 These are big numbers. Yeah, I mean a lot of them. 370 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,200 Are you know my Azure function bots, you know, pumping those numbers in 371 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,680 the background. But I'm sure a few of those are. Are you running 372 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,319 a hundred million Azure bots? I just wanted to know, because that'd be 373 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,880 cool, be very cool. Oh No, I don't think the MVP perks 374 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,799 will cover that many. Yeah, that's exactly might blew your budget a little 375 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,640 bit, just a little Just looking through the code, I mean, yeah, 376 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,240 there's some really really cool stuff here. And I love the fact that 377 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:03,039 you're using generics and even out types out of tea. Oh, I don't 378 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:06,759 remember the difference, Like there's it is using the variances. Yeah, of 379 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:10,240 cod and contra. But it looks pretty I mean, yeah, there's some 380 00:26:10,759 --> 00:26:14,519 stuff in here, but it does look very simple, and that that's what 381 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,319 makes it good. I guess, huh. That was the idea is because 382 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:21,759 again we're trying to distill down like what it's kind of the essence of our 383 00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:25,119 systems, and it's like you send a request in and you get a response 384 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,079 out like that's I mean, I'm I'm dealing with web apps most of the 385 00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:30,920 time, right It's it's all HDP request response. We're like, well, 386 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,279 how can we take that kind of one level below that, which is get 387 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,359 rid of the status codes and you know, streams and junk like that, 388 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,559 and then it becomes a pure like I send a data request in and I 389 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,720 expect to get a data response out. And that made it also really easy 390 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:51,640 for us to test our systems. So we we we shifted our testing. 391 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,799 We used to have these unit tests. They were all unit testing our controllers 392 00:26:55,799 --> 00:27:00,160 then like mocking those managers out or manager dependencies, and it was really hard 393 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,880 to understand what's going out of the system. So from there, with this 394 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,519 mediator pattern, we had all of our tests go through this like request in, 395 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:12,599 response out, which made it made our tests now very kind of simple 396 00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:15,400 to understand. I pushed data in, what is the data get out? 397 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,960 And what happens behind the scenes I don't not my problem called the sort of 398 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,599 procedure or what I don't know, and both sides are testable that way, 399 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,680 right, you could have a simple invocation to chest to back end part of 400 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,319 that too, exactly. So we we we had this big shift from oh, 401 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,480 you know, the old testing pyramid with like the bottom is all your 402 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:41,039 unit tests and then you have like like an order of magnitude fewer integration tests. 403 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,319 We woud up kind of flipping that where we started out with all of 404 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:48,039 our stuff being integration tests because I was like, the way I absolutely knew 405 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:52,680 the system work would be to send the data request in and validate the data 406 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,319 request out and if that look good, I don't like that's and then okay, 407 00:27:56,519 --> 00:28:00,559 if there's like you know, more granul a lot I want to you 408 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,160 to test, we can do that. But then, like we our confidence 409 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,480 or system just doubled because we knew like from this very you know, pure 410 00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:12,039 request response a level, it was all working the way we expected to. 411 00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:15,200 It's almost assertion like it's like I send you this, you give me that, 412 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:17,920 you said, I see you this, you give me that. If 413 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,599 you can do all of these things green light exactly right, So it could 414 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:27,119 just help simplify. Yeah, just the the window into the actual logic inner 415 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:33,960 system became very uniform and very focused on each individual request from each other. 416 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:37,920 All right, So I see that you have notifications in here, which raised 417 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,359 my eyebrows a little bit. So notifications typically are asynchronous to me. And 418 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:45,119 then I look in the code and you have a wrapper class for a synchronous 419 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:52,119 notification handler. What on earth is that? So one of our like one 420 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,000 of our guiding principles when we're trying to build these kind of systems is like 421 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,759 okay. For the request and responsition system, it was always one one with 422 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:03,079 the kind of user interface though one request in, one response out, and 423 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,720 those were designed specifically for each individual kind of web end point in my system. 424 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,720 I didn't share those requests, didn't share the responses typically, but they're 425 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,880 always like one to one. I send one request in, it goes to 426 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,720 a handler through the mediator, and to get a response out that is tied 427 00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:22,119 to that. But there were still sometimes that I did want like sort of 428 00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:27,319 one to end so if I have a kind of request going out, it 429 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:33,319 may be going to multiple different handlers to be able to to do something with. 430 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,759 And then one example, one kind of good example we had is if 431 00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:41,880 I have a set of business logic in my application, and if I'm doing 432 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,599 like DDD, then that's that's my quote domain layer. But if I want 433 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,640 to affects, if I want to affect change in some other part of my 434 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,559 system or some other system altogether, I don't want to necessary put that logic 435 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,119 right there, because that's kind of imperative go poke this other thing over there 436 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,839 to do the work. Instead, I would like to say, well, 437 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:03,440 this thing happened. I want to notify other folks that this thing has happened. 438 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,359 And then however they like to deal with it, it's completely up to 439 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,519 them. So it's still a synchronous sort of handling. That is, we 440 00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:19,480 I'm invoking those notification handlers synchronously. It is a sync in the C sharp 441 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,960 sense, but it is synchronous from the I am awaiting the response of that 442 00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:26,799 handler. Okay, but then when we're doing in those notification handlers, is 443 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,799 then like, well what am I affecting change another system? Like calling another 444 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:36,880 web afi am I then actually taking that notification and dropping it on a bus 445 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,400 as a service bus, and then notify actual external systems. I could do 446 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,079 whatever I want to like, instead of me having to directly invoke those systems 447 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:49,359 from my business logic, I can raise a notification and have that then translated 448 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,599 or done whatever I want to the outside world. So it's it's almost just 449 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,759 like another word for request and response, but it indicates that we're calling another 450 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:03,079 object that might be in an entirely different domain or a different stack exactly. 451 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,400 So it's it could be. I kind of think it's like like the regular 452 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,640 sending the request is a you know, one to one. This is a 453 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,799 one to many. But I really wouldn't call like pub sub because you're not 454 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,400 subscribing to things. I mean literally, all that's doing it is like going 455 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:25,200 to the container and lasking for all the different notification handlers of this notification and 456 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,720 then calling all of them like the very stupid thing under the covers. But 457 00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:33,319 it gives you that decoupling of the handling of what like what to do with 458 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:37,240 that versus imperative like they'll flip this other bit. Yeah, I'm just saying, 459 00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:40,000 well, my bit was flipped. Who Ever wants to do something else 460 00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:44,440 with that is completely up to them. Very cool. Thanks for clarifying, 461 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:51,640 And gentlemen are going interrupt for one moment for this very important message, and 462 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,839 we're back. It's dot at Rocks. I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. 463 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,920 Hey, talking to our friend Jimmy Bogert about Mediator. I just know 464 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,799 it's like mediators in your gid hub repository, Jay Bogart, but automapper is 465 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,680 not. Yeah, I don't know. Why don't you know, Jimmy. 466 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:15,319 Oh, I mean, like automapper wasn't my gid hub and then we had 467 00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:20,559 then we're like, okay, well, there's multiple other kind of libraries related 468 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:22,839 to it. It was easier to put those under an umbrella of the realization 469 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,480 versus my personal one. Where's mediator, Like there's not there's just that and 470 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,119 I don't want anything else. It's like I even recently classed down there was 471 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:37,440 an extension for the Microsoft Dependency Injection container, right, and I noticed that 472 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:43,319 the downloads of that were almost identical to the downloads of the main library. 473 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,079 So I'm like, they're always taking it. Why I have a superpository? 474 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:47,559 So even classes, there were two and now there's one. It's like the 475 00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:52,759 Highlander sort of rule. Now there's one. Yeah, where I see an 476 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:58,519 automapper, you have stuffer any framework stuff or oh data, and it becomes 477 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,200 a nuisance. So rather than have them all listed mixed in with everything else 478 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,160 and getting issues because it can't find stuff. Right, but you know, 479 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,960 this is good. This is like a lesson in how to evolve things that 480 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:12,519 become too complex. That's just that's my goal here. I'm like, I 481 00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:15,319 don't want any more headaches and open source head eggs. Like then just kind 482 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:19,839 of a forcing function that I can't make it more complicated. It is a 483 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:25,640 It is an interesting point that this opinionated approach to software comes from experience that 484 00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:29,680 the more stuff you build, the more you realize, you know, I 485 00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:32,319 kind of really want to make this thing. Just do this thing, and 486 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,759 if you need to do something else, you should use something else. I 487 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,759 was another huge I mean that's from the design of this liber mediator, the 488 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:43,559 whole Like I copied and paste the code several times, like automapper did come 489 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:46,480 out of a project, but after it was done. In that project, 490 00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:52,440 I added so many features that I never used personally right, which is super 491 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,079 fun. When someone comes with a bug and I'm like, oh, actually, 492 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:57,440 I have no idea how this is supposed to be used. I just 493 00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:00,359 kind of like, you know, chin scratch speculation, the one this might 494 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,279 be cool for somebody, and then the buck comes in and like, well, 495 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,880 I don't know if this is correct behavior not. So Mediator is like 496 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,719 purely now born out of I don't add features unless I have some immediate needs 497 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,039 on clients or projects whatever, and then you know, if there's something that 498 00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:19,760 I think it may need, then like I really have to make sure that's 499 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,719 I'm not well. I think the main thing is is somebody going to use 500 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,480 it well, depend on it in a meaningful way and more, and actually 501 00:34:25,599 --> 00:34:30,480 think and exercise it enough that you know that it works correctly. Right. 502 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:35,400 I have to be super careful too, of changing the design of anything in 503 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,559 there, like automapp or I really didn't care too much about breaking the API 504 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:45,280 from time to time because I just devour devs. I'll figure it out. 505 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,079 You're fine, yeah, exactly. Mediator is like I live through the pain 506 00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:54,039 of me breaking my own API. It's like you beat yourself up. It's 507 00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:58,199 like a really super super careful about those sort of things, but I mean 508 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,039 it just happen from time to time, Like, oh gosh. One of 509 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:04,159 the bad ones recently was I had a cancelation token support, which I should 510 00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:07,360 have had from the beginning, But like adding an extra parameter to an interface 511 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:13,039 where you have like a hundred implementations and on a project, I need to 512 00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:16,480 get really good at reg x to like make this simple myself. Yeah, 513 00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:21,599 no kidding, but well, this is always that thing of realizing how I 514 00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:24,480 missed this feature should have been in there in the beginning. When do we 515 00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:30,199 commit the pain now or later? I mean, you were just talking about 516 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,840 generics we had. I did a change where I added generic constraints because I 517 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,880 thought it was not because we needed it, because I thought it would make 518 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,679 the code more correct, but instead just like pissed everybody off because it didn't 519 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:49,320 add anything and it just broke stuff. Like it just silently broke stuff. 520 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,519 If you if you add the constraints, it's like suddenly it just won't it'll 521 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,400 compile. This is my mistake. Like it's still compiled, but just didn't 522 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,639 work, and nobody knew why. It's like, well, whoops, don't 523 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:04,119 do that again either. Yeah, then, and that's just the the classic 524 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:07,599 architectural problem, right if like do I do I need this now? Well, 525 00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:09,719 I you know, I'm probably not going to need it later exactly. 526 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,400 Like it's really hard to anticipate. At the same time, it's like and 527 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,360 you always regret it. It was like, oh, I do need this, 528 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:16,840 and I didn't do it back then, and now it's going to be 529 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,559 harder to implement. Yeah. One of the fun things about this project though, 530 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:24,320 has been it that just like seeing how the like the crazy ways people 531 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,599 try to use this thing, and like half my issues are like just don't 532 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,840 don't do that, Like you're you're you're well passed the boundaries of what I 533 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,280 would consider like appropriate useless library and like if it's if it's painful, then 534 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:44,360 like maybe don't do that, right, Like you're you're abusing it. I 535 00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:52,280 just don't hurts when I do this. Don't don't do it. I love 536 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,960 it. It's it's so much fun. Do you actually work much on automat 537 00:36:55,079 --> 00:37:00,679 or these days? Uh, It's like my open source work is almost like 538 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,760 it's ninety five percent determine on what my clients are needing at the time. 539 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,199 I just don't I'm not a hobbyist OSS developer. I mean I spend time 540 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,599 like up doing updates and like issues. But I can only code for what's 541 00:37:13,599 --> 00:37:15,440 in front of me. And if the people in front of me don't need 542 00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:19,440 something done, then like I won't. I just won't spend my time doing 543 00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:22,639 something speculatively because I had so much. Yeah, I mean, do you 544 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:28,320 do need recreational coding these days? Really? Are you just working? I 545 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:35,440 mean, I this this coding examples for like conference talk scout as recreational. 546 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,239 Yeah, I guess that's as close as you get in the end. You 547 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,639 know, we don't make a living from conference talks. They have some benefits, 548 00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:47,079 No, I mean I don't, not not especially, It's just I've 549 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:52,000 got you know, children now, so like they Yeah, you're your hands 550 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,840 are plenty full, friend, and I get that. And it is interesting 551 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,800 you see how we cycle in our lives between these different things. Yeah, 552 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:00,800 you know, part of selling this house is I a whole lot of home 553 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,920 assistant in this house and I am been writing a manual for the new owner 554 00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:08,000 to live with home assistant and just just got to take all that equipment with 555 00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:10,719 you, Like these are my switches I would break the house, you know, 556 00:38:13,159 --> 00:38:16,079 and and they actually you know that the realtors sold the house on the 557 00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:20,679 back of some of these automations, you know, the whole just walking and 558 00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:23,440 walking in the room and say play jazz and it play jazz like they like 559 00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:28,760 that stuff. How do you leave it behind? By the way, And 560 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,639 this has totally got nothing to do with anything. But so I've now made 561 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:36,599 the list of all of the different accounts I have to migrate, and and 562 00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:44,480 it's a dozen. There's only one one that has a formal transfer ownership concept. 563 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,400 Well you can actually say, hey, I'm selling this equipment to someone 564 00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:53,880 configured as it is. It's so NOS the audio guys. Yeah, so 565 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,639 yeah, there's a bunch of so nos integrated in the house, works really 566 00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:00,119 well, no reason to move it. Why would you break that? And 567 00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:04,360 they actually have an infrastructure a setup where it's like give me the new account. 568 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,440 There they agree. Stuff leaves your account, but you keep the configure. 569 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,079 You know, I got a lot of stuff tuned up perfectly with the 570 00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:14,079 house. You don't want to lose any of these configurations. None of the 571 00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:16,639 others have that. Some of them are. Some of the others. You 572 00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:21,360 can create a new account to it and then move stuff over to it, 573 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,039 but not really on migration and I'll just delete myself out of it. Some 574 00:39:24,119 --> 00:39:28,719 of them are like, nope, start over. Yeah, that's just painful, 575 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,679 not your problem. Sorry, total digrections. Stuff that's on my mind 576 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:37,840 right now. Yeah, that's okay. So we're not going to see in 577 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:44,480 Copenhagen, I see, uh no, I got accepted to they sat Louis 578 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:49,840 dead upcomp so show Yeah, I've done that. Show might see the Cardinals. 579 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,719 Who knows it's time? Yeah, without a doubt. Do you do 580 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,400 talk some media or I didn't even check. They're always tied into the problems 581 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,320 I was trying to solve because I've done I I've been no talks on automapper 582 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,360 or mediator. It's always in service of like we came up with this tool 583 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,800 to help solve this problem, and the problem we were having was that when 584 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,320 I talked about earlier like these controllers are too big, we need to split 585 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:15,079 things out. And so when I talk about like architectural concepts that that helps 586 00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:16,280 solve, it's really like, oh, and if you want to make this 587 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,159 easier in yourself, that you don't have to like figure all your container junk 588 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,239 Yeah, there's this thing here that well just like kind of skip past that 589 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:28,000 part makes that piece easier, which I mean makes a lot of sense. 590 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:31,639 Right, that's supposed to be the way that open source projects emerge, right, 591 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,239 and how they get maintained. And I think it's wildly credible too to 592 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,079 say, hey, I don't talk about my project. To talk about my 593 00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:40,960 project, I talked about a problem and how I solved it with something that 594 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,800 became a project. Right. The other thing we noticed as well others, 595 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,119 another just kind of funny aside is my projects seemed to unearth more bugs and 596 00:40:50,159 --> 00:40:54,800 Microsoft libraries than anyone else I know. So like Mediator has exposed a lot 597 00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,280 of bugs and the MICROSOFTDI containers because if people just doing stuff that I wasn't 598 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,280 quite expecting, or things that like other containers support out of the box, 599 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,800 but like Microsoft didn't need it, so they didn't build it. The same 600 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:14,800 thing happened with Automapper automapp prizes like link supports, and we have uncovered more 601 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,840 bugs and enerny frameworks link Provider than anyone else I know, because like we're 602 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,440 just building these crazy link queries behind the scenes and shoving God over to the 603 00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:23,960 you know, to make sequel and they're like, oh, what is this 604 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,559 you just gave me? Like sorry, yeah, generated link query to become 605 00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:35,760 a generated sequel query doesn't always go. Well, is this whisper stuff? 606 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,360 Right? I whispering? You're hear you whispering easier? Is it the same? 607 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,440 I don't think it's the same. But when it works well and again, 608 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,320 it's like, and you probably made the product better in the process, 609 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,239 because like, this expression should have worked. Why didn't it work? I 610 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,119 mean I had a I had a poor request open on the Microsoft TI container 611 00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:00,599 that was finally merged after I think four and a half years. Wow. 612 00:42:01,199 --> 00:42:06,280 And that's after going through like I think the third repository because they went through 613 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,360 their like several consolidation efforts, so like this issue had to keep getting recreated, 614 00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:14,679 like and first over here and first first one over there. But it 615 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,119 was something to do with the variant stuff. They had a bug in there 616 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,880 how they were doing generic variants and it broke scenarios for us, and it 617 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,039 was a valid scenario to me. So people are doing this thing with the 618 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:31,599 notifications where they would have something like a invoice approved notification, but then they 619 00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:37,719 would make that notification implement interfaces like I auditable or I loggable, and so 620 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:44,039 they would look for all the auditable notifications to make sure those got audited. 621 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,559 But something broke with that, like it couldn't handle that like kind of level 622 00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:51,119 of indirection. So it stuff like yeah, I don't know if it's a 623 00:42:51,199 --> 00:42:54,840 valid use of container, but it should work and it doesn't. So and 624 00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:00,440 they try to ditch you more than once by moving their repository off this way 625 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:04,719 for a repository shell game area. If we move the project, maybe he'll 626 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,559 leave us alone. None of the DII container authors like have many good feelings 627 00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:13,079 for me because they keep getting issues open and their repositories to support something that 628 00:43:13,199 --> 00:43:15,519 people are doing with my stuff. And like, right, I noticed that 629 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:20,119 you have a face for I stream request, so you're, oh, that's 630 00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:23,000 a new one. Yeah, you're embracing streaming. So so I said it 631 00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:27,239 was simple, but you have these like every time you think I need to 632 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,360 write something to support oh what about this, I look in there it is 633 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:35,480 okay. That was still one though I actually had a real world project scenario 634 00:43:35,559 --> 00:43:37,400 on that one. Then I wouldn't put it in if I didn't actually need 635 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,360 it, because it was like you know, with a regular request response. 636 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,079 When you get the response, the server is done, right, it's done 637 00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:50,559 doing the work, and you get this data object that's that's finished. Well 638 00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:53,360 you can, yeah, you have to yield it at some point. But 639 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:58,719 the stream stuff was like, well, you're not really You're getting an eye 640 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,960 Oh god, I and stream innumerables innumerable, I forget the name of the 641 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,199 interface. I A sinking numerable. That's the one, thank you so much. 642 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:08,719 So yeah, it's like it's not done yet, and even like innumerables 643 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:14,199 aren't quite done yet, like I'd still connected to the server potentially. But 644 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,760 our use case was we were doing on demand real time et l from a 645 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,079 huge on prem database to like our new micro service database in the cloud, 646 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,559 and it was too big and complex to try to etail the whole database is 647 00:44:27,639 --> 00:44:30,679 once. So we said, okay, the first time we user hits this, 648 00:44:30,119 --> 00:44:37,199 we're going to stream the data from just their their data into our system 649 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,599 so we don't have to do everyone all at once, which should just be 650 00:44:39,639 --> 00:44:45,559 too complicated. So we hooked that up to another library with mind. We 651 00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:47,000 don't have to talk about it, but it's one called bulk Rider, which 652 00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:52,320 is basically linked to Sequel book copy. That's a nice little tool. It 653 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:58,480 will innumerable a book copy operation. So I'm only loading in like n number 654 00:44:58,559 --> 00:45:01,880 of records at a time using this equal bolt copy library the Microsoft has cool 655 00:45:02,639 --> 00:45:07,199 so limit. I could stream you know, thousands or tens of thousands of 656 00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:13,159 records through link in etl and like you know mill seconds through this process as 657 00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:15,079 well as like transforming as I go. But at the end I needed to 658 00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:21,760 stream it out through an API to our server. So we thought, well 659 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,320 we Microsoft now has gRPC support, which also has async or innumerable supports, 660 00:45:25,559 --> 00:45:30,639 so we're able to stream all of that through this mediator pattern all the way 661 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:35,880 out to the consuming clients to be able to stuff it into the database instead 662 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,679 of having to you know, load tens of thousands of records at a time. 663 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:44,440 It's only you know async in numerables the whole like async numerable turtles all 664 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,159 the way down. It's that's really where that came from, was like you 665 00:45:46,199 --> 00:45:52,119 know, all these Microsoft stacks, asp net core and their g RPC stuff 666 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:55,760 now supports async and numerables. We're not keeping not loading up all the results 667 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,679 in memory. It's streaming back out to the clients and so this was just 668 00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:04,840 to support those kinds of scenarios. And also in that list of things that 669 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,760 you could support that you have API contracts, in gRPC contracts, but you 670 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:13,920 also have Blazer with no sort of any any you know, explanation as to 671 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:22,360 how or why you would support Blazer because that's all UI. Yeah, it 672 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,679 is. So in the cases where you do have this kind of like I 673 00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:30,840 don't want to stick everything in the Blazer page. I want to like shovel 674 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,239 it off to like something else, then it kind of goes into there. 675 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,119 But it is just cross this boundary because I've had folks like another example is 676 00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:45,639 like Razor pages or Azure functions were it's already kind of contained in a class, 677 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,519 So like why what what advantage does it give you? So for me, 678 00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:52,360 like I don't use this pattern and Azure functions because I'm like I'm already 679 00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:55,559 I'm already at the scope of a function. Like having another level of directionn't 680 00:46:55,599 --> 00:46:59,320 really do a whole lot for me. All right, So you meant to 681 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,599 say Blazer server there please are server? Yes, thank you? Yes? 682 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,239 All right? So yeah, you're on the server side. Yes, you 683 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,960 have access to the database and you don't have an API layer, but you 684 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,599 still have some kind of manager in the back end that's going to do stuff. 685 00:47:13,039 --> 00:47:15,800 This is a really good solution for that. Yeah, yeah, cool. 686 00:47:15,079 --> 00:47:17,599 But when I into these, when they get to these sort of functional 687 00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:22,639 frameworks, I tend not to use this because I'm like, I'm I'm already 688 00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:24,599 there, one class one method, good to go. Yeah, you don't 689 00:47:24,599 --> 00:47:30,559 need to add complexity if none is required. Yeah, well and excited. 690 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,880 Part of this all comes back to conflicts. You're not having conflicts? Yeah, 691 00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:37,760 no, yah bother And the only time I've really run into situations like 692 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,800 that is if the function they give me is still way too tied to whatever 693 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,159 framework they're in. Yeah, then like, okay, then I'm just gonna 694 00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:47,480 dit that one extra step of pure data in per data out versus it's all 695 00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:51,760 other cruft that's going around there. But really you should be pushing that problem 696 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:52,920 back to them, going, guys, you need to invite a little here. 697 00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:59,519 Yeah, and then they yell at you that it doesn't work, and 698 00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:02,800 they're and their cat care business elsewhere, and you're like, it's free. 699 00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:07,400 Exactly, give you money, pack, I'll give you all the money you 700 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,119 pay. So what's next in your world? Man, what's in your inbox? 701 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,719 Oh? Man, I'm like the past year or so, I've been 702 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:23,159 like Elbow deep and and modernization of ESPNT NBC to core Orp Corp. Done 703 00:48:23,199 --> 00:48:29,039 at six, so a lot of like cloud migration, and let's also get 704 00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:32,760 it off of asp net four eight and get it onto a net seven eight 705 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,440 whatever you know? And why six not seven? Because I started the project 706 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,400 a year ago before a relationship just that was it. I gotta enough to 707 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,079 do. I don't need to switch frameworks now. So I get to I 708 00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:46,679 get to see like these projects are using my libraries. So I'm like, 709 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,360 oh, now I have to go through these migration processes because I have to 710 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,880 upgrade the code from you know, whatever I thought was a good idea. 711 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,320 You get to take advantage of the new features of C sharp too. I 712 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,760 mean one of the things I'm when I'm talking to folks who are coming out 713 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,119 of four eight now and looking at seven project, like your four versions of 714 00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:06,400 C sharp behind, Like there's some good stuff you get by getting away from 715 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,679 four eight. Yeah. Step one, take everything out of startup, put 716 00:49:08,679 --> 00:49:15,480 it in program and make and make what do they call those you know, 717 00:49:15,519 --> 00:49:21,639 the controllers that are right there yeah, yeah, exactly without move all your 718 00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:27,320 controllers into these anonymous yet school boys sex just copy and paste everybody. Yeah, 719 00:49:27,679 --> 00:49:30,079 probably got an Owen start up change six point zero, seven point zero, 720 00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:37,880 and you're done. It's fine, We're fine. You know. It's 721 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,239 one recurring theme on the run as side. We were talking about, Hey, 722 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:45,480 you know what's good, wait another version, because the migration tools get 723 00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:50,239 better, the validators get better, like everything will get easier. If you 724 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:55,199 don't see an immediate need for this feature right now, there's really there's strong 725 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,039 incentive to wait a little longer too you really need it, because it will 726 00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:05,280 only get easier over time. And so this codebase was started with my previous 727 00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:12,000 company back in twenty ten or so. So it's like all the mistakes of 728 00:50:12,079 --> 00:50:16,679 Jimmy past that Oh yeah, you you hate your past self, Like what 729 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,079 was that idiot think? Yeah? Yeah, So that's like it's all like 730 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,000 you know, in tier sort of stuff, which isn't bad, but like 731 00:50:23,039 --> 00:50:25,280 I can see like, oh gosh, they still got the managers and the 732 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,480 repositories and all this stuff, and so it's it's hard to test. It's 733 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,920 all coupled and yeah, all the things that I realized we had fixed like 734 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,199 and subsequent to that project. But it's kind of a snapshot in time, 735 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,760 right what we thought was, Yeah, I mean it's good to be kind 736 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,360 to yourself. It's like that's what we thought at the time. We have 737 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:46,760 learned since then and now I have to clean that up. Hey, before 738 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:53,039 you go call back to the to the comment, do you get many contributors 739 00:50:53,199 --> 00:50:58,400 in the sense of like financial things or anything for automapp or mediator, Like 740 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,000 does that happen? Oh? So, I mean I do have my geth 741 00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:08,440 hub sponsor link on those projects, but the levels are basically tied to different 742 00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,480 qualities of alcohol you could buy me, so like one hundred dollars a pretty 743 00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:19,320 decent bottle of whiskey and that you know, you know down like craft beers 744 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,599 levels or just like pb PBR at the bottom PBR level. So, I 745 00:51:23,639 --> 00:51:30,400 mean I have received one significant contribution. That is, uh, my project 746 00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:36,440 or automapp or was recipient of the ADBs dot nets open source thing last year. 747 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,840 Thank you. I don't really know what the state of they where they 748 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:45,760 are now because they had a big contraction and their team so like, oh, 749 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,719 they did a few donations and then I think I don't know if they 750 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,880 just saw like dot and that's not a big deal for them or whatever, 751 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,599 but just the one. But I'm I don't expect that or seek it out 752 00:51:54,639 --> 00:51:59,400 either, because no, no, I mean I always get the sense with 753 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:00,679 you, Gym ever talk to you, it's like you're just busy doing the 754 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,400 work for your customers. Yeah, and this other stuff comes out the side 755 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,280 of that, and that's nice, but it's not your focus. Yeah. 756 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:12,239 I just coming from a product background as well, I knew like I would 757 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,000 have to. I have to design for the people that are actually using it 758 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:19,199 that I could talk to and get feedback from. If I just design something 759 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,559 socially open source libraries like you put it out there, but how do you 760 00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:27,039 how do you get that feedback from people using it? And so I can't, 761 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:29,920 you know, I can't sign an NDA with everyone that comes up and 762 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,480 says I have this problem. Okay, let's really dig in to see what's 763 00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:36,079 going on there. It really I don't know. I don't want to do 764 00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:38,480 the support thing either, So I just design for what's in front of me, 765 00:52:38,639 --> 00:52:42,400 the people that are paying me to do work for them, and then 766 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,960 I will then I know that whatever I'm building will work for them because that's 767 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,800 what they're paying me to do. And if I just put out there and 768 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:51,880 other people can use it and they get value from it, that's just kind 769 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,840 of icing in the cake. But the primary focus for me is the people 770 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:58,199 that actually pay to have this work, that are paying you. I mean 771 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,760 that being said, you have had a few tributors to Mediator over the years. 772 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,719 I don't know that they're substantial. Oh yeah, code wise, of 773 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,400 course, no. No, yeah, for the code. Code is a 774 00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:12,679 different thing because it's time and that's more more, more difficult. And usually 775 00:53:12,679 --> 00:53:16,000 I mentioned they're solving their problem too by giving you a pull request. Yeah, 776 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:20,920 I just I mean it still it takes time for me to understand. 777 00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:23,039 So what problem they're trying to solve, and is this the problem that should 778 00:53:23,039 --> 00:53:27,480 be solved my library or is an actual issue whatever? Because there's half the 779 00:53:27,519 --> 00:53:29,800 time the issues are raised. I'm like, it's not me, it's the 780 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,519 container. Go figure it out over there. There's nothing I did. I'm 781 00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:36,360 not going to fix your broken container for you with peace software. That's not 782 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,440 how that works. Yeah, it's like it's just go and then make them 783 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:45,960 mad over there. That's fine, share the anger, Yeah, well, 784 00:53:45,079 --> 00:53:49,880 Jimmy, thanks for sharing this with us. Mediator. Looks very cool and 785 00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:53,800 I can think of at least two customers that are going to take a look 786 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,159 at it right now, So thank you, all right, thanks for having 787 00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:00,679 me. I always happen to be on all right, We'll see you next 788 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:25,119 time on dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's 789 00:54:25,159 --> 00:54:30,039 Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post 790 00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:35,840 production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the 791 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:42,519 cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt nt R o 792 00:54:42,639 --> 00:54:46,880 c ks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, 793 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:52,440 and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in 794 00:54:52,519 --> 00:54:55,280 September two thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 795 00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,599 They keep us in business. Now, go write some code you next time. 796 00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:08,559 I got a treadmittal bands, Dolly and see the summer time is hard 797 00:55:09,039 --> 00:55:09,840 than my tax