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Creativity and a learning mindset are essential
to succeed. Learn how these innovators put

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these skills to use to become the
best in their fields. Welcome to Innovators

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to Know. Brought to you by
Idemics Today. It's a pleasure for me

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to welcome Professor Amy Edmondson to our
show. She was one of my professors

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at Harvard Business School many moons ago, where she's now a professor of Leadership

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and Management, and she's particularly focused
on and interested in how leaders enable the

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learning and collaboration that are vital to
performance in any dynamic environment. She's written

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seven books, with more on the
Way It Sounds Like and various scholarly papers

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published in academic and management journals.
She's also sought after keynote speaker with a

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worldwide following. The New York Times
best selling writer Daniel Pink had this to

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say about Amy's book, The Fearless
Organization. It's a book that every leader

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should read and heed. Amy,
Welcome to the show. Thank you,

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What a pleasure to be here.
So maybe your work has focused on human

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interactions that really lead to the creation
of successful enterprises that are also contributing to

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bettering society. That's kind of a
lot in a way, right, Yes,

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that's a lot. Yeah. And
and let me say that the second

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part is really just a premise,
right, Okay, it's almost an active

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faith, I assume, Yes,
I assume that well, and it's not

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always the case, but that when
organizations thrive and their employees are engaged in

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meaningful work, this is good for
society. Yeah. No, absolutely,

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I agree with you, even though
that sometimes doesn't happen or it's lost,

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often falls off the wrong direction.
And I think it at various economic moments,

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it you know, kind of either
fades into or comes more into the

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four right, tell us about how
you view your work within the mission of

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your role and organizational psychology. So
I increasingly view my work as about helping

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people swim upstream, right, swim
upstream against cognitive biases, group dynamics,

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you know, sort of broader forces
that lead us to not naturally do some

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of the things we need to do
to get the results that we want.

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And so for instance, we need
to really team up and be curious and

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humble and you know, unselfish in
a way. If you and I are

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going to work together to sort of
create something really hard to do. That's

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not easy. It's going to take
discipline, it's going to take a genuine

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interest in each other, and a
willingness to disagree, and all of these

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things that are absolutely essential to the
quality of work, but not easy,

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right, don't come naturally. So
leadership is the art of helping people do

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hard things and helping them in a
way want to do those hard things.

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And the number one hard thing or
the category that I'm interested in is learning.

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Right. We have to keep learning, but it's not just individually.

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We have to keep learning together,
which is hard, right, because we're

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more comfortable knowing. Yeah, no, absolutely, And in a way I

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think in our society, within organizations, we have placed a much higher value

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on knowing than learning right, right, And so we've created a sort of

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cultural construct of you must know coming
in to a conversation, rather than you

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must ask the questions to learn and
then eventually know it's right. I think

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you know. Historically, managers were
the ones who had the answers and who

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would tell you what needed to be
done and then evaluate how well you did

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them. And today I think good
managers and good leaders are the ones who

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have the questions and who know that
they're not subject matter experts in everything.

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Nobody is. Yeah, but they're
really good at sort of helping see where

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we might be missing something, helping
draw people in and along and developing people

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and sort of dealing with ambiguity and
uncertainty. They're more like, you know,

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a great manager today is more like
a scientist than an old fashioned manager.

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Yeah. So in this sort of
arc of businesses and our economy and

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the relationship that work that individuals have
to work, this is a relatively recent

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occurrence what you're describing, which is
that managers should be helping enable learning and

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asking the right questions and actually have
to do that. I have to give

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their teams, right, It's not
as sort of nice to have, It's

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an existential thing. What is it
do you think that necessitated that shift?

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Like why was it okay to not
do that before? In a way,

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it's some of this has been gradual, but I think there's that there's a

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speeding up of this change, and
it's the change from work, you know,

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a hundred years ago, being largely
physical, you know, known standardized

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tasks, execute on the task,
whether even whether that be a customer service

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task or a production task, to
work that is largely knowledge intensive problem solving

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work, and a great deal of
it is collaborative work, meaning multi disciplinary,

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different people bringing different bits of the
puzzle to get it done. And

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as work becomes more about or more
dependent on problem solving and ingenuity and collaboration,

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then the job of managing is more
about creating the conditions where that can

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happen. Yeah, you know,
rather than sort of commanding it to happen.

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Because you can't command it to happen. So I think we've just we've

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first gradually, but now all of
a sudden, it's just blindingly obvious,

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right that you can't you can't sort
of require people to be great modeled.

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It just doesn't work. It's dead. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a

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lot of sense. Over a lot
of your research, and among the seven

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books you've written, two big themes
have emerged so far. I'm sure they're

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more to come. Teamwork and psychological
safety. I want to take a quick

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look at this clip of you explaining
teaming. This remarkable story is a case

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study in the power of teaming.
So what's teaming. Teaming is teamwork on

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the fly, It's coordinating and collaborating
with people across boundaries, of all kinds,

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expertise, distance, time zone,
you name it. To get work

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done. Think of your favorite sports
team. Okay, because this is different.

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Sports teams work together, that magic, right, those game saving plays

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now they win. Sports teams win
because they practice. But you can only

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practice if you have the same members
over time, and so you can think

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of teaming. So sports teams embody
the definition of a team, the formal

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definition. It's a stable, bounded, reasonably small group of people who are

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interdependent in achieving a shared outcome.
You can think of teaming as a kind

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of pickup game in the park in
contrast to the formal, well practiced team.

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Now, which one's going to win
in a playoff? The answer is

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obvious, right, So why do
I study teaming? It's because it's the

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way more and more of us have
to work today. Right, with twenty

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four seven global fast paced operations,
crazy shifting schedules and ever narrower expertise,

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more and more of us have to
work with different people all the time to

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get our work done. Right,
We don't have the luxury of stable teams.

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Now, when you can have that
luxury by all means, do it,

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I mean, tell us about teaming
in the modern day workplace, and

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how we can facilitate environments where that
happens more seamlessly. Ah yeah, teaming.

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Teaming means we're reaching across boundaries,
we're working with other people, and

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that's not easy. So what do
you need to do? I think it

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really it starts with purpose or something
that is worth teaming for. And so

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that could be a compelling purpose,
that could be just a you know,

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a really exciting stretch goal that people
find themselves motivated to do. It also

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requires our willingness to sort of learn
about each other, right, So boundary

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spanning sort of. I need to
know more about your ideas, your expertise,

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and I need to tell you more
about mine. And that's you know,

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that's a crucial part of it.
The part that I've spent the most

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time on is psychological safety, which
is an environment where people believe that candor

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is expected, candor's expected, candor's
welcome, not that it's easy, not

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that it's going to be fun or
comfortable, but that this is what we

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have to do because of what's at
stake. So I'm willing to ask for

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help when I'm in over my head. I'm willing to admit a mistake that

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I've made. You know, I'm
willing to point out a flaw in your

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argument. Yeah, and that's that's
not again, that's not the norm,

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right, that's and and that's what
a psychologically safe environment is like, and

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it's essential for effective teamwork. Yeah. And and candor I love that word,

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you know, but distinct from sort
of the radical candor, that radality

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or a bridge water sort of espouses. Right. So, how so I

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will say, not necessarily distinct from, but that You're absolutely right, there's

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a spectrum of you know, a
little bit of candor that's not sort of

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normal, but maybe a little more
open or I need help, you know,

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all the way up to absolutely radical
candor of the way you're handling yourself

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is you know, just terrible.
And let me tell you why. And

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so I don't I don't think it's
it's so much of a distinct categories as

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just degrees of either directness and where
where you go. So part of Ray

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Dalio's model is that a great deal
of it is candor about personal feedback,

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like how you show up, how
you come across, which the spirit of

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it is developmental, right, it's
to help you learn and grow. Now.

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I think it's fair to say that
many organizations don't want to go there,

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and that's probably okay, But Bridgewater
does want to go there, and

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they have a particular reason for wanting
to go there. They have a theory

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that says each of us have to
continue to develop ourselves with self awareness,

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understand better the impact we're having on
others if we're going to be really effective

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in the work we do. Yeah, so that's their theory. They've done

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a great deal of work to sort
of make it possible. Yeah. But

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even without going to that extreme case, let's just say your clinicians taking care

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of patients in a hospital setting.
It is far more natural than most people

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would think that if you're not quite
sure about something, you might just wait

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and see or hold back, or
if you think someone's about to give the

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wrong dose, you sort of second
guess yourself and you go, oh,

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it's I'm probably wrong, right inside
your head or often without even thinking about

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it. So that just the tendency
to hold back rather than to lean in

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is natural. It's socialized. There's
many, many factors that explain it.

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Yeah, but it's a problem.
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, it's I'm

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struck by something I was reading as
I was looking through your work, which

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was you had described at one point
that in the hospital context, and much

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of your research I think is focused
on that. Right, More teams that

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feel a higher degree of psychological safety
actually make more mistakes, but are more

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productive. They may not make more
mistakes, Okay. The funny thing that

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I discovered many years ago was that
better teams were reporting more mistakes, right,

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And truthfully, we couldn't get accurate
measures of how many mistakes get made,

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right because unless they self report to
lead into something terrible, in which

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place we find out about it,
more often than not, mistakes happen but

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don't really cause undue harm. Yeah, So it's essentially self report. So

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they're more willing to speak up about
the mistakes. And why would they do

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that, weird thing, because most
of us don't love to raise our hands

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and tell each other about our stakes. Because they have deeply understood what's at

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stake. Yeah, that they understand
that their individual willingness to do this hard

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thing just may say the life at
some point. Yeah, I mean that

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makes a ton of sense. And
that's certainly a liver dye type environment where

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these things better more than anywhere.
Right, And in part of what you

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know, I didn't set out to
study healthcare. It wasn't a particular interest

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of mine. But it is a
place where the dynamics are more extreme,

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the consequences are more extreme. So
sometimes it's like a laboratory where you can

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you can just see things playing out
more easily because of this more extreme context.

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Yeah, so I learned a lot
from healthcare that. Then I said,

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Okay, let's let's go see whether
this applause, you know, at

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a Midwestern manufacturer. Yeah, it
turns out it does. Yeah, that's

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super interesting. You've also written and
talked about this idea of extreme teeming,

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so tell us about that. So
I spend a few years very interested in

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sort of large I'm still interested in
large social problems, you know, sustainability

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challenges, built environment challenges, you
know, poverty or education problems in a

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city. And you if you go
and look at any one of these challenges,

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you will find that they need to
be addressed by not just multiple disciplines,

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but by multiple multiple organizations and sometimes
even multiple sectors. Right, So

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you might have city hall involved,
in local businesses involved, and educators and

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business developers and they're they're coming together
to try to put together a program to

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say, you know, alleviate youth
unemployment or building. I spent some time

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studying the design and creation of some
smart cities, smart city projects, and

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again real estate developers, you know, software types, city hall very differentferent

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mindsets, very different skill sets,
different mental models about time frame. And

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what I found pretty early on was
that they're talking right by each other and

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not even realizing it, that there's
such culture clash between industries and the problems

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are the work is so challenging that
unless they sort of figure out how to

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break down the walls between these sectors
and disciplines, they just don't make progress.

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They end up they end up getting
stuck. So there's so many problems

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in our society today. I know
that this logic applies to right. Yeah,

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we've almost become so specialized a society
that the ability for people to have

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a conversation, but more than just
have the conversation, actually work on problem

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solving in an interdisciplinary manner, so
that there's a practical, measurable solution that's

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delivered to some of these societal problems
poverty, homelessness, healthcare access, so

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many things, right, what is
that breakdown about? Do you think how

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is there a solution to that?
Yeah? There isn't one solution. Yeah,

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And I think there are many factors, many tactics that need to be

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considered and experimented with. But you're
absolutely right. I mean, the challenges

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are immense, and I think sometimes
that's a causal factor in its own right,

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because it just seems too overwhelming,
and then you just think, well,

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I guess I'll just do you know, I'll do my part. I'll

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do my job, and I'll try
to do my job well. But if

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I sit around and think about climate
change, it's just too vague, it's

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too hard. So we go back
to our our silo or back to our

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narrow focus and just try to do
it well, which is understandable, yeah,

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but ultimately doesn't solve the problem that
we face. Yeah. And I

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think there's also a dearth of sort
of real leadership, you know, people

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willing to kind of stand up and
say I'm going to take this on,

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yeah, and get people excited and
energized and sort of willing to And do

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you feel there's more of a lack
of that real leadership here in the US

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compared to other places you've worked and
observed around the world. I haven't studied

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that question systematically, but my intuition
would be yes, yeah, and why

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is that doing no? I think
today in the US we are more focused

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on material success than ever and the
longest way to arrive at material success is

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probably to address one of these really
thorny, societal, wicked problems, right,

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And so it's just people are looking
for a short cut. I mean,

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they're looking for what's what's the best
way for me to be successful?

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What's the shortest path right in a
way, and that isn't it? Yeah,

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it's uh. I think you know, in the US, maybe we

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had a time when economic success didn't
feel like a zero sum game, and

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now it feels like we've been in
a period where more and more people feel

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that's the case. And the impact
that has on all these behaviors and the

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lack, as you said, of
individuals actually wanting to do something for more

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than just their material success is it's
a very small population. Really. I

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think that's right. And if you
if you think that, if even at

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an unconscious level, if you think
that your success is going to take away

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some of my success, then the
last thing you will be willing to do

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is team up with others, you
know, to tackle these really big challenges.

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Yeah. Yeah, because you're inherently
seeing others as competitors for scarce resources,

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not as treasures, right, collaborators
without whom you will not be able

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to have an impact on the world. Yeah, totally, More on that

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later. I want to take a
quick look at this clip in which you

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describe the environment that faces every leader
today. Let's take a quick look.

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One thing we know for sure is
that more upheavals are coming in a completely

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interconnected world. A single political uprising, a viral video, a distant tsunami,

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or a tiny virus can send shockwaves
around the world. Upheaval creates fear,

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and in the midst of it,
people crave security, which can incline

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leaders towards the usual tropes of strength, confidence, constancy. But it won't

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work. We have to flip the
leadership playbook. So amy, so many

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forces coming at every leader, whether
in the middle or upper levels or wherever.

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Really, in an organization public,
private sector, for a profit,

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nonprofit, how can they prepare for
all of these unforeseen you know kind of

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shocks almost coming at them? Right, there's probably no way to prepare technically.

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You can't figure out what all these
shocks are going to be, almost

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by definition. So what they need
to do instead is prepare themselves kind of

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emotionally and cognitively for the reality that
you will never have all the answers,

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You will never know everything that's coming
at you. So there's a great humility

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there, right, just situational humility, not not false modesty, but a

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sense that Okay, I don't know, so now what right? And then

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that has to I think you have
to prepare yourself by reinvigorating your natural curiosity

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that often gets lost along the way, and develop your empathy muscles because I

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great great leadership is about inspiring others
to work really hard because they want to

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write, because they think what they're
being asked to do or invited to do

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is meaningful, important, will make
a difference. Can be done with other

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people whom they respect and appreciate the
chance to work with. And the leadership

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model that allows that to happen is
fundamentally humble, curious, respectful, yeah

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you know, and passionate, And
I think passionate about the difference we're trying

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to make and coming back to that
again and again. Yeah, so I

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have my own theory about this,
but I'm very curious to hear yours.

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So CEO tenure has gone further and
further down, right, Yeah, I

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think you know, four talented individuals
in almost every industry, the rate at

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which we now expect them to evolve
their roles and move on to the next

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job. And you know, there's
there's lots of this sort of up or

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out and so on. Right,
The result of it all is that even

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though what you're describing really are a
fairly intuitive set of principles, right,

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and qualities that are just good to
have at a human level for every person,

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and yet the struggles with them are
so real. Is it just idiosyncratic

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an individual? Is it, you
know, kind of some weird amalgam of

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individual circumstantial? Why does it fail? Or why are so many leaders finding

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themselves failing in situations? I think
we have never had so much. Two

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big forces that are relatively new,
right. One is just the scrutiny,

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right that you will be caught on
camera. You will be you are just

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visible all the time, constantly under
your stage, under a microscope all the

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time. And that's just a exhausting
and be fraught with the potentials exactly.

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And the other which is not unrelated, but it's the twenty four seven sort

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of work expectations, right that you're
never off, which is different than being

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never visible. It's just plain work. There's this expectation that there's no it's

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very little expectation that the sort of
the workday ends and you go home and

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you're with your family, you're you're
out on the golf course or whatever it

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does you want to do, right, So if you have one of these

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roles. In fact, I had
a CEO in my class recently who said

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to the eighty five students in my
classroom, I basically now have I have

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my job, which you know he's
very passionate about. I said, I

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have my family and I exercise and
that's it. I don't have friends.

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I don't know. It wasn't because
he was scared of having It's just that's

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no time and having this CEO role, you know, of a public company

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is such that that's all I can
do. And that was not true historically.

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So asking people to sort of essentially
drop everything else and putting them in

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the limelight where they're just visible all
the time. That's a pretty hard job.

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Yeah, I mean you're expecting them
to totally subsume themselves to the job

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in a sense, and it doesn't
seem terribly healthy or and especially because we're

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losing so much expertise and learning.
If people are only in these roles for

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a short time, by the time
you really understand the place and are making

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some progress towards very challenging long term
goals, you're out of there and someone

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else comes in. Yeah, that's
so true. And yet we have some

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of these leaders, right, like
a Jamie Diamond and tons of others who

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sort of stand the test of time
and go from kind of success to success.

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And is there a quality that you
think some of those theaters share in

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common. I don't know if there's
a quality they share in common. But

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they must must have figured something out
about how to how to sustain their energy

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and their engagement and their interest.
So maybe they have found ways. Yeah,

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it'd be worth looking into sort of
a cycle of renewal for the cycle

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of renewal to sort of when they
go you know, when they go offline,

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they go offline. Also, I
do believe, you know, the

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only way to really do this is
it is to truly trust and empower others.

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You know, if you are I
don't want to put it this way,

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but a control freak, you can't
do it right. But if you

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have a great team and you can
trust them and they'll get in touch with

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you. If some you know,
absolutely unexpected thing happens and you need to

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be gotten in touch with, but
otherwise, if you can trust that team,

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you're probably better off. So maybe
that brings us the real skill is

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the ability to build a great team. M Yeah, So so many leaders

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are turning more and more to coaching
to get objective advice when they feel they're

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in a place that's somewhat lonely,
right, I mean, there are some

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questions you can ask of your teammates. There, there's advice you can gather

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from the people surrounding you, and
then in the end you're tasked with making

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a decision for the team. What
gold is coaching played in your life and

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career? Oh, I'm embarrassed now
to say I've never had a formal coach.

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I certainly have had fabulous friends who
you know, friends and colleagues who

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have coached me. Yeah, I
had senior faculty earlier in my career who

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coached me. I've had, you
know, people who've given me great advice,

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but also great opportunities to talk and
just be heard. So I think

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it's so it's I think that's a
very powerful experience today, heard especially,

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and I think that's what good coaches
do. I mean they're playing that role

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of listening and being willing to honestly
reflect and talk about what they're hearing and

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what might be missing and what might
help. And that is, you know,

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that is the ultimate sort of safe
space, psychologically safe space where there's

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candor and where it's about learning,
it's about your growth and learning, it's

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about stretching a little bit. So
maybe there's a relationship here between you know,

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the growth in coaching's acceptability but also
it's use may be related to the

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fact that people are feeling too visible
and unsafe in their roles, so they

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need to have somewhere that they can
retreat to and get into it. No,

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I think that's so true. And
as you were saying, you know,

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being able to be coached by somebody
who has an understanding of your context

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because they understand, you know,
what it's like to be in an HBS

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classroom, or what it's like to
be the CEO or your industry, whatever

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that might be. You know,
we find this all the time is hugely

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important to a productive kind of coaching
relationship. It is we also at HBS

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have put together some programs for new
CEOs where they come and it's very confidential,

336
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chatam house rules and so forth.
But they get great solace out of

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sharing insights with each other and just
realizing that they have so much in common.

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Right, they're not alone, They're
not alone, and they sort of

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they can let their guard down in
that room with free faculty present and talk

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about some real challenges that they face. Yeah, makes sense. I want

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to talk a little bit more in
me about psychological safety. How do you

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feel it's become distorted, Well,
it has indeed become distorted. It's it

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has become virtually synonymous with feeling comfortable. That psychological safety. Many people are

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using it to mean that I get
all my needs met at work. I

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feel comfortable. I shouldn't be pushed
or stressed or you know, unhappy in

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some way, which is not what
I meant. I mean, I can

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understand the misperceptions. I think the
term itself sounds very soft and comfortable.

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I'd love I'd like to say it's
actually about I think psychological safety could better

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be described as a state of feeling
comfortable being uncomfortable. Like that, you

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understand. Yep, that's the human
condition right now. I won't be comfortable

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all the time. Sure, I'll
be comfortable with my friends and all,

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you know, various times. But
there will be a lot of times where

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I'm not comfortable because I'm growing and
learning or doing something hard, or hearing

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00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:02.039
something I don't want to hear.
Ye, But I'm willing, in fact

355
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even eager to do that because of
what's at stake, right is there?

356
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Is there? Do you see a
pattern in terms of a population or a

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context where the term gets misinterpreted.
Probably the most dominant one is in the

358
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.319
tech sector, I think, where
a lot of people have interpreted to mean

359
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:29.240
again, I feel comfortable, job
security. I can say anything I want,

360
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but there'll be no repercussions for any
of it. Versus I really do

361
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:42.240
feel able to learn and grow and
contribute and do hard things. Yeah,

362
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with others. It's also you know, in the end, I think the

363
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context that you're talking about is professional
and is work and sometimes not that it

364
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Also, psychological transparency also lies in
a sort of familiar or personal context,

365
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.720
right, but with a different set
of people exactly, and with different relationships,

366
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:10.319
and the very nature of those relationships
is different. Right. You know,

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somebody asked me the other day whether
psychological safety and belonging were synonymous.

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I had to say no. First
of all, they're defined differently, yes,

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But second of all, you can
you can envision a situation where you

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feel a great deal of belonging,
right, but no psychological safety to speak

371
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:33.519
up candidly. Yeah, you could
be a nurse in a hospital and absolutely

372
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have no question that you belong there, and yet you know someone is about

373
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to do something wrong and you're not
quite sure whether you can say something.

374
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Similarly, there are families where you, yeah, you better believe you feel

375
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:51.920
you belong in them, but you'd
never tell your parents you know what you

376
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.680
really did last night? Right,
So no psychological safety, lots of belonging,

377
00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:00.279
Yeah, very different terms, I
totally agree, So lost question should

378
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:05.279
I mean? Apart from the leaders
that we coach, we coach a number

379
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.920
of young professionals, many of whom, in these last few years have founded

380
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:16.119
an especially challenging time to be in
the workplace. Yes, do you have

381
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:21.160
thoughts on this? I mean you
must observe this in the classroom as well.

382
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:29.119
What do you think is causing that? I think we have we have

383
00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:36.920
really generally underestimated the cost, that
the impact, the sort of psychological impact

384
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.920
of remote work. I mean it's
not that it's not that remote work is

385
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.359
bad, of course not, and
hybrid work is certainly here to stay,

386
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:50.519
but we underestimate what it does to
us when we are alone too much,

387
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.440
right, or we're not just around
others. There is a certain magic and

388
00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.880
a connectedness of just being together.
There's there's the laughter, there's sort of

389
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:07.759
reading facial expressions, and I think
people are feeling disconnected, they're feeling lonely,

390
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:15.000
they're feeling mental health challenges, and
they're not knowing what to attribute it

391
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.519
to, so they're attributing it to
whatever. It's just my life is hard,

392
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:22.279
or life is hard versus you know, maybe we just haven't made enough

393
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:28.680
eye contact recently, we haven't been
together, we haven't had those spontaneous moments

394
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:34.119
of feeling connected. We are social
animals. We need to be together.

395
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:42.240
Yeah, Yeah, any lost parting
thoughts before we were at Bob, Well,

396
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:49.240
I suppose the the last thing we'll
say is things will keep going.

397
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.279
We'll keep having challenges, right,
We'll keep having failures, We'll keep having

398
00:33:52.640 --> 00:34:00.920
learning opportunities. That's got to be
accepted as the given, right anticipated.

399
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:07.840
But I do think they're easier to
sort of accept and navigate skillfully together.

400
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:14.639
Yes, there's something wonderful about being
able to team up with people you respect

401
00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:19.800
and like to tackle these things.
I mean, without it, I think

402
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.599
we just don't problem solve in a
timely or particularly effective way because the lack

403
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:30.480
of anything about a single perspective really
turns into an impediment for that s It's

404
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:35.880
A it's more fun, and then
B it's actually higher quality problem solving.

405
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.239
Yeah, you go down a cognitive
path of your own and you just don't

406
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:43.599
You don't really recognize the opportunity to
sort of pivot and try something else.

407
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.239
Totally. Well, Amy, thank
you, it's been a pleasure to have

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you. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever

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you listen and leave us a review. Find your Ideal Coach at www dot

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vidmx dot com. Special thanks to
our producer Martin Maluski and singer songwriter Doug Allen,