WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:15.080 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:20.160 Episode number one forty six. Success is not final, Failure is not 4 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:26.839 fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts. With Ston Churchill broadcasting 5 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:30.679 from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on 6 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:35.799 that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and 7 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:40.560 business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's 8 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:46.200 your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof 9 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.399 Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show 10 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:56.439 is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, 11 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:02.200 Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals 12 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:04.920 of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories, 13 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.480 micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no 14 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.439 reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your 15 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:17.159 movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus 16 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:21.239 on that. At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, 17 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:26.120 CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, 18 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:29.400 Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need 19 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:36.719 your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay 20 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:41.760 dot com. Well, guys, today on the show, we have Thomas 21 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:48.920 Dever. Thomas is the head of writer success over at Coverfly, and he 22 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:56.640 pretty much knows what's going on on the street. He's there talking to agents, 23 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:02.079 managers, producers on a daily basis and helping screenwriters connect with them and 24 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.120 showing them what they're looking for and so on. And Thomas and I had 25 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:12.800 a fantastic conversation about where we are in the industry today, what screenwriters need 26 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:16.759 to do in order to get their screenplay seen, and a lot of little 27 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:22.919 tips and tricks on how to get your projects out into Hollyweird. So, 28 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:29.199 without any further dude, please enjoy my conversation with Thomas Dever. I'd like 29 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.639 to welcome the show Thomas Dever. How you doing Thomas, I am doing 30 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:36.240 well. Thanks so much for having me. Oh Man, thanks for coming 31 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.199 on the show. Man. You know, you and I have been working 32 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:44.000 together in a in a way for a while now because you guys work you 33 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:49.159 work with cover Fly, who works with me on bulletproof script coverage. And 34 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.240 why this hasn't happened earlier, I have no idea. So I'm glad you're 35 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.240 here now and we're going to talk all things about the business and how to 36 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.800 you know, I hope that you have all the answers, Thomas, because 37 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:04.520 the answers, because you know, there's a lot of screenwriters listening right now 38 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.479 who want to know how to make it. And I was told, you 39 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.560 know, so we're going to get into this no pressure. But how did 40 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.280 you get started in the business? Oh? I mean, I feel like 41 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:21.439 I've got the pretty usual story that I grew up in the Midwest and film 42 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:25.240 industry was just this mythical thing way out on the West Coast, and pretty 43 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:30.240 much as soon as I finished undergrad, packed up my stuff and moved out 44 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:34.439 without really kind of any clue of what I was going to do or how 45 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.560 it was going to work. Just like I think as soon as I realized, 46 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:40.240 oh, people like actually do this for a living. These are actual 47 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:45.520 like businesses and I can work at them. Just kind of that was all 48 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:51.680 I wanted to do, you know, started internship to then reading with a 49 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:55.280 production company that had first Look studio deal, so really fortunate to get. 50 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:01.199 That was my crash course on development and coverage and everything that goes into a 51 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:08.719 film before it gets made. And then from there I started working for a 52 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:12.879 producer that was working on a Fox search Light film, So then that was 53 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.720 my crash course on how a film actually gets made. And then after that, 54 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.600 I think everybody was kind of telling me, you know, you really 55 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.279 got to work at the agencies. The agencies is what you do, that's 56 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.319 kind of the way that you get into it. I interviewed at two of 57 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.680 them, I won't say which scared the hell out of me, Like genuinely 58 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:38.360 the interview scared the hell of me. I remember walking out in my like 59 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:43.079 nicest suit that I could find and telling the HR person like, yeah, 60 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.319 I think you can take my name off the list. I don't think I 61 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.560 can do this because I a little too thin skinned, a little too recent 62 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:55.040 from the Midwest. So then yeah, so then I just kind of I 63 00:04:55.040 --> 00:05:00.000 think I used the verb mid twenties, my way around the industry for a 64 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:05.560 little bit of producing some things, continuing to sort of work in freelance capacity, 65 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:11.800 taught at a film school at one point before eventually finding my way to 66 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:15.399 this, you know, this little world where we found each other, which 67 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.639 you know, the competition and the coverage space, and truly I went into 68 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:24.639 it thinking, you know, I remember the scripts that I would write coverage 69 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:30.920 on at the production company with the studio deal, and like they weren't great. 70 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:38.160 They really I remember thinking, being a professional screenwriter is very attainable based 71 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:43.040 on these samples. And so when I went into the competition, I was 72 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:49.959 expecting like Microsoft word documents and typos and incoherent stories. And I started reading 73 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:55.120 for them and it was like, oh, this is this is really good 74 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.959 and this one's really good and this writer is amazing, and these writers are 75 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:03.040 every bit is talented. Like what what's like? My brain couldn't process it. 76 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.839 And I think that's where it all sort of clicked to me of the 77 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.720 like all at once, the sort of barriers to entry not necessarily being your 78 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:18.319 skill set or your equality of your writing, or your dedication or your discipline, 79 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.199 it's all of these other sort of things, you know, be it 80 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:28.120 geographic or socioeconomic or you know, you know, these sort of cliches of 81 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.920 who you know in the industry, and then I think the rest is history 82 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.879 kind of. It's just really dedicating to this competition space and then ultimately the 83 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:43.920 platform that became cover Fly and creating those opportunities and providing that level of access 84 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.199 and insight and resources to the writers that you know weren't fortunate enough to just 85 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.800 have that readily available. Well, what's so fascinating. And I think a 86 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:58.800 lot of screenwriters don't understand this. They think that good writing and good screenplays 87 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.399 are uni corns, where I mean, you've read thousands of scripts probably in 88 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.600 your career. I've read a ton of scripts over the years, and I've 89 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:14.959 read some stuff from really accomplished screenwriters, people who have published, like have 90 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.439 produced screenplays, some of them even with some OSCAR nominations. I've read some 91 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:24.120 of these scripts and they can't get them financed. They can't they can't get 92 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:27.920 them in and then and it just like it's disheartening. I'm like, wait 93 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:30.680 a minute, this thing is sitting on someone's shelf for the last ten years. 94 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:33.959 It is amazing it's one of the best scripts I've ever written, and 95 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:41.519 no one's financing this with talent attached, And I'm like, what is going 96 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.959 on? Let alone the unknown scripts that I've read from screenwriters who are so 97 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.800 talented, And I'm like, why are some? Why do some pop? 98 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:53.439 And why do some don't? And it's I mean, I'd love to ask 99 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.000 that question to you, like why do And it's a hard question, like 100 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:01.120 why does one guy or one gal make it? Oh, get the opportunity 101 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.079 the door opens for them, and the other one doesn't if their talent is 102 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.639 at the same level, you know, as you know, give or take 103 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:11.120 sure. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a strange thing, right. 104 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:18.360 I I love a good craft panel or a lecture and I loved like 105 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:26.160 craft is undoubtedly more fun than the business. But the business considerations or what 106 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:30.399 are deciding it because like, of course they are. You know that this 107 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.919 is uh You've brought commerce into it and these are these are companies that are 108 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.840 distributing projects. And that doesn't mean that they're all philistines that hate art. 109 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:45.960 It just means that there's there are considerations and what happens here other than simply 110 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.559 what is on the page. And I think that you can find a ton 111 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.559 of examples of those of projects that were you know, not in demand and 112 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.559 then you know, wait a few years and suddenly they they are. And 113 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.399 your script that everyone was passing on is a lot with that, because the 114 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:07.200 one thing I would say to your question is you can't like so much of 115 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.559 it is out of your control, like so much of it is out of 116 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:16.200 your control. I don't know anybody that can write fast enough to either anticipate 117 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.120 or accommodate like the trends, which of course are going to be changing on 118 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:24.840 a on a regular basis. And I also don't know if I've met a 119 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:30.480 screenwriter that can pander, you know, that that can write something just because 120 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:37.559 they think it's popular and not really have hard I recycled a cliche that like, 121 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.919 look, if it wasn't fun for you to write, it's really not 122 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.320 going to be fun for me to read, watch or watch or watch, 123 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.799 right, And I think anybody can see through that. So really, I 124 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.799 think our approach to it, you know, if you sort of consider whether 125 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:56.279 your goal is getting staffed on a series or signing with representation or getting your 126 00:09:56.279 --> 00:10:01.360 project option or sold, like the less step of that is a decision maker 127 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:07.919 reading it and responding to the material, and there's nothing that you can do 128 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:11.080 to make that happen. Like, there's literally nothing that you can do. 129 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.240 They're either going to like it or they're not. And so if you accept 130 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:18.080 that, like the final stage of this you have zero control over it, 131 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.720 sort of puts in perspective, put your energy towards the things that you can 132 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:28.159 control, right, which is the material that you're putting out, the putting 133 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.320 out the best possible version of it, network and creating those opportunities getting in 134 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:35.600 front of those decision makers, I guess, to increase the odds of them 135 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.080 responding to it, and increasing the odds of this scenario that you have no 136 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:48.759 control over. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and 137 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:56.519 now back to the show, because I would say the two most common things 138 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.120 that I have seen in the sort of writers that quote unquote make it, 139 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.879 which is maybe like a separate discussion of what making it means, but the 140 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:11.639 two most common things that I've seen is one they just they work their ass 141 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:18.080 off, like they truly just when when I meet the sort of most successful 142 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.440 or busiest writers or highest level writers that I know, it's like, oh, 143 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.519 hey, what have you been up to, And they're like, well, 144 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:26.799 i just did a draft of this feature, and I'm doing a polish 145 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:28.679 on this treatment, and I'm also going out with this other thing. And 146 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.639 that's just in like the past couple of weeks, you know that it's just 147 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:37.919 you have to crank out the material, and it is just it's really the 148 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:43.639 discipline and the dedication to it. And then the other tree is just a 149 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:48.360 clear focus, like a really clear kind of focus on what their strengths are, 150 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.799 what their goals are, what they want to do, what they're good 151 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:58.320 at, and this kind of on this knack for not ever getting knocked off 152 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.639 of that that that not having a sort of like ten step plan that goes 153 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.440 to hell if step two doesn't go as you thought it was going to that 154 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:07.759 it's just like, yeah, I'm going to be a staff writer and oh 155 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:13.279 this didn't pan out, so I'm gonna try this pathway and getting an opportunity 156 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.840 that's not like a literal one to one of what they're trying to do, 157 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:18.919 but seeing like, okay, here's the parts of this that can move me 158 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.480 towards my goal. So that's what I'm going to get out of this opportunity. 159 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.600 And and so that's the closest thing that I can sort of identify in 160 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:33.320 terms of commonality. Yeah, and again that I love that you said that. 161 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.919 What is the definition of success? And so many screenwriters think it's getting 162 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:43.120 that million dollar spec script or two million dollar specscript or but you know, 163 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.360 I always look at success now and this is maybe just because I'm I'm a 164 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.679 bit older. Now, it's just like, can I make can I Can 165 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.039 I make a living doing what I love to do? Can I keep the 166 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:56.960 roof over my head, you know, food on the table, send my 167 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.919 kids to school, you know, lived a comfortable life. I don't need 168 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.600 millions. Can I just do what I love to do? And that's a 169 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:11.039 that's a disconnect for a lot of screenwriters because they're sold so oftenly they're sold 170 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.080 the lottery ticket. I always use the term lottery ticket mentality. They're sold, 171 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.279 you know. And it goes back to Shane Black and Joe estra House 172 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.360 back in the nineties when they were pulling in two three four million dollars. 173 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:26.120 Uh A a picture or a script? Do you know the story? Do 174 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.600 you know the do you know the story? I have to tell I haven't 175 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:33.039 sell the story on the Shadow. I don't just to that, like what 176 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:37.240 you're gonna say that like the industry that Blake Schneider describes and saved the cat 177 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.039 where it's just kind of like I just popping off ideas. Oh yeah, 178 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:43.200 yeah, yeah, Like that's the industry that I want to work in, 179 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.799 because that's Oh god, that was it was seeing at the moment. No, 180 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.679 it's great. There was a story I heard from from a friend of 181 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:58.000 mine about how Shane Black and his last that movie, Last Action Hero, 182 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.080 which is got the record four million. You got four million for that? 183 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:07.279 He do you know that he sold that that script off of a cocktail napkin 184 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:13.679 idea? It rings a bell. It sounds like I read this in a 185 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:18.240 great Land article way back when it was I just heard this. I was 186 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.600 at aff the other day and I was talking to somebody at the bar and 187 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.039 I know that I know that, you know, I know it's a it's 188 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.600 a reparable person I'm talking to. So they're like, this is how it 189 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:33.039 happened. Apparently the agent of Shane said, hey, do you have an 190 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:35.360 idea for a movie, And he's like, yeah, I'll have a great 191 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:37.960 idea for a movie. He goes, write it on this cocktail napkin. 192 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.919 He wrote the log line on the cocktail no script, log line on the 193 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:50.919 on the cocktail napkin. And then that agent called every studio head in Hollywood 194 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:56.559 and said, I've got Shane Black's next script on a cocktail napkin, and 195 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.200 you need to come to my office and you can read it in my office. 196 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.320 And wait a minute, he goes, you can't send anybody, it 197 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.559 has to be you. So all the six or seven major studio heads all 198 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.120 came down to the office read it, and there was a bidding war off 199 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.399 of the log off of the cocktail napkin log line and ended up being four 200 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.840 million for Last Action Hero, which then, of course did not do well 201 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:28.399 and Shane Shane had a little rough time for the next decade until he came 202 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.200 back. We got we got nice guys. Eventually, No, we know. 203 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.840 What brought him back was kiss kiss Bank Bank. There we go. 204 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.480 Sorry, kiss Kiss Bank Bank brought him back five years. But he was 205 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.320 out. But he was out for about I think he was about fourteen years. 206 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:46.600 Like he would like, he couldn't get arrested. He couldn't get arrested. 207 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:48.919 It was seriously. But then he finally got kis kiss bank Bank made, 208 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.240 and then that launched him back into you in the good graces. But 209 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:56.240 that was and I used that story as a as an example of the insanity. 210 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:03.840 Now, I think that was the height of the the being drunk. 211 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.639 I think it was just being drunk on these specscript situations back then. Sure, 212 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.559 yeah, I mean, well, uh, that story's uh, that 213 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:17.480 story is way sexier, right, Oh god, it's super sexy if you're 214 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.080 if you're sitting at home, because writing is such an isolating thing, right, 215 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:23.759 it's literally you, you and the screen and the keyboard. It's it's 216 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:30.480 so lonesome that I feel like it's more romantic to picture just coming up with 217 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:36.879 this once in a generation idea and then the the millions of dollars based off 218 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.720 of that. I think that's maybe a more enticing story to hear than just 219 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.440 yeah, you just like you work your ass off every day and you take 220 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:48.080 these sort of progressions, these progressive steps with with your career, and you 221 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:51.720 sort of grind your way up to them. That's not sexy at all. 222 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:52.879 That's not I don't want to hear that, Thomas. I want to hear 223 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.720 the cocktail napping story, Thomas, I don't want to hear I have to 224 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.279 work hard for this. Yeah, and that's I mean, that's the thing 225 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.640 is it's uh and you know, even with the even with that, I 226 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:08.440 feel like it's not like it's not like they pulled Shane Black's name out of 227 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.119 a hat, right. No, no, no, he was he already 228 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:18.039 exactly there lethal weapon ten to fifteen years before that of the of the grind 229 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.640 to get to it. But no, absolutely, and I think that that 230 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.839 is the I understand the allure of thinking like that, but but the truth 231 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.599 is, or at least the more common thing that we're seeing is he is 232 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.759 just it's a job like anything else, and it's difficult, but you know, 233 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.079 And so I'll give you another another story that might illustrate what we're talking 234 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:44.079 about. When Shane was passing around lethal weapon, every studio passed on lethal 235 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:48.319 weapon, every studio passed on lethal weapon, it was a young from my 236 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:53.319 understanding, was a young Chris Moore who was the OSCAR nominated producer of Goodwill 237 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:56.799 Hunting and Project green Light, you did all that stuff. He read it 238 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:04.279 and said this is great, and he forced it up the ladder and got 239 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.799 someone to finally take a real look at it again and got it financed. 240 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.640 But it was passed on. Everybody passed it because it was such an Buddy 241 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:17.640 Cops were essentially the new The buddy cop really came in within forty eight hours, 242 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:19.640 and that was only probably a couple of years prior to that, so 243 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.000 it wasn't the thing yet and people passed on it. So it was just 244 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.720 like you had a champion and then of course the talent was there and then 245 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.279 everything else blew upon and yeah, and I think that that kind of goes 246 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.240 back to it, right, which is when I was just saying a few 247 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:34.519 minutes ago, though, like, hey, the last step of this you 248 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.960 have no control over that was even a script is incredible as lethal weapon. 249 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.519 It's getting two exacts that are just not responding to it, but you keep 250 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:45.759 sending it out, You keep sending it out, you keep working on it 251 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.160 until it finds the one and you just find that one champion and that's really 252 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:53.319 kind of all you need sometimes, well, yeah, I mean find finding 253 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.480 that champion and finding we all need champions. Everybody needs a champion. Spielberg 254 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.920 had a champion, you know, Nolan to Shane, everybody all these guys 255 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:07.000 have champions. You know, if it wasn't for Steven Soderberg, Nolan wouldn't 256 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.440 have gotten I think was it's Omnia, which then of course got him Batman 257 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.880 and then the rest of the SCE history. You know. So, but 258 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.519 you need someone to just go hey, it's okay, but you got to 259 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.559 keep grinding. And that's the thing that people, the screenwriters specifically don't understand, 260 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.039 is the grind. It's it's the grinding day in, day out, 261 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:30.599 do the work. I think the other thing is too and I always I 262 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.400 always tell screenwriters this that if you if you have if you've been working on 263 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:38.319 a screenplay for seven years, you're not a professional screenwriter anymore. You should 264 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.920 you need to have ten At seven years, you shl have like five ten 265 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:52.039 screenplays. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back 266 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.400 to the show. Yeah, I mean even to like what you were saying 267 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.680 earlier though, because I think that's one of the things that like we so 268 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.799 cover fly with A We have a dedicated team of people and we offer free 269 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:10.279 consulting for screenwriters. And that's whether you're a professional screenwriter. That's hit a 270 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.359 you know, hit a rut or you're just an emerging screenwriter, we'll you 271 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.559 know, we'll consultant will help kind of come up with a focus and a 272 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.960 plan moving forward. The first question I ask everybody is what's the dream? 273 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.079 Like, genuinely, what's what is the dream? If I could start not 274 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.799 like what you think you're supposed to be doing based on trends or what you 275 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.319 think is realistically attainable given your circumstances, Like genuinely, if I could like 276 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:38.839 sprinkle pixie dust or stat my fingers, what would you be doing? Because 277 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:44.279 like, let's figure out a way to do that. You know that if 278 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:49.640 your dream is to just make indie films that you write, direct, produce, 279 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:55.400 that's an awesome dream. Let's figure out how to make that happen. 280 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.839 You're probably not going to make that happen by cranking out pilots and trying to 281 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.960 get staffed in a room because you think that that is like the more viable 282 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:11.279 pathway, and you're going to do a lot of work and probably be unhappy. 283 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.440 Right even with that, your goal is to write and direct your own 284 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.559 and like, look, if you can find a way through that that, 285 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.440 it's like, okay, I'll use this to ultimately get back to the goal 286 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.160 do that, but it's you know, do do you know like what you 287 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:29.160 were saying that like finding a way to be happy with it. And I 288 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.880 think if your goal is to just self finance and make your own projects, 289 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.599 like do it instead of living up to this like that the only measurement of 290 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.720 success is selling studio specs or something. It's you know, that's that some 291 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.920 person's dream, But that doesn't have to be yours, right, No, 292 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.039 And I think that what you said was is so wonderful. It is being 293 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.440 happy doing what you're doing. Because I mean, I always wanted my goal, 294 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.880 my dream, if you were going to ask me that back when I 295 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.480 was twenty two. I want to direct feature films. That's all I want 296 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.200 to do. I want to direct feature films. But I jumped into post 297 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.400 production because I was a way to make a living, and I was very 298 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.000 grateful for that, but I was probably in there a lot longer than I 299 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.519 should have, and I should have really fought a lot harder to get out 300 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.680 of just doing editing or color grading or post supervising or the other stuff that 301 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.559 I was doing to make a living, to the point where I got so 302 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.279 unhappy. I was bitter, I was angry. I was I always tell 303 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:26.960 people the angry and bitter story, which anytime I speak, speak in front 304 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.440 of all ARTI how many people here know an angry, bitter screenwriter? And 305 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.000 then everyone raised their hands. I'm like, if you didn't raise your hand, 306 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.279 you're the angry and bitter screenwriter. Everybody else knows so. But it's 307 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.839 because you become angry and like that person is like, oh, I'm working 308 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.640 in a I'm working in a writer's room. I've been pounding out these pilots. 309 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.680 It's horrible. I'm on like this fourth or fifth level down a show 310 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.680 somewhere, you know, in the middle of the country or whatever, and 311 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:02.319 I hate doing what I'm doing. What I really want to do is well, 312 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:03.319 you just said I want to I want to write, direct, produce 313 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.559 in direct indie film, because that's that's the thing. I think that there's 314 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.480 this h I don't know, there's this perception that gosh, we're getting like 315 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.160 so philosophical here, and it's like, good, this perception and money is 316 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:18.279 going to make you happy, Like genuinely, post people do pretty well. 317 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:22.440 And if you were on top level projects, I'm sure I did I did. 318 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.319 I did fine, I did, I kept I my my I was 319 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:33.960 good for a long time. UH with post Post, I can't say anything 320 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.640 negative about it, but I wasn't happy doing it. Just as the same 321 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:42.039 thing. If someone paid me a million dollars a year to uh to you 322 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.039 know, push a broom around all day, the money would be great. 323 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:52.079 But at a certain point you're just like, this is not what I want 324 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.880 to do. This is not why I'm here now, And you start asking 325 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:56.079 the question, well, why am I here? Am I here to make 326 00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.319 money? Am I here to be happy? Now we're really getting deep into 327 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.640 phil because that's I mean, usually it's funny. Now we're going through like 328 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.079 the progression. It's like we're deconstructing a cover flight consultation call. There's another 329 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:11.240 question that I ask right like you and I were saying before we fired it 330 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.000 up, like we're crazy, right, this is this is the sity industry. 331 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:19.119 Is you know that I I admire the conviction that I had in my 332 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.039 early twenties that I'm just like, oh, I'll pack all of my possessions 333 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.680 and just driving to a state two thousand miles away. But like those you 334 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:34.920 know, asking writers, it's I ask what what is the like what do 335 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.799 you sort of see coming up in everything that you write? And not just 336 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:41.160 like a format in a genre, but like genuinely like what themes? What 337 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:47.200 like philosophical or stylistic consistencies? Like what are your projects like and what are 338 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:52.480 they about? Followed up with like why is that? Because this is not 339 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.160 something that you just think about or something that you're interested in. This is 340 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:03.720 something that you are compelled to express in the form of feature screenplays and pilots 341 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.839 and shorts and and usually if we're you know, talking with you, not 342 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:11.960 just that you're doing it pretty well. So like where that's coming from? 343 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:17.279 Somewhere there is coming from some sort of innate need on your part to express 344 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:21.759 this. And and so I think that puts in full scope just how I 345 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.920 don't know, just like how much passion is behind this, that that if 346 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.680 you're trying to put it towards something that your heart isn't in, how much 347 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.400 it is going to take out of you and why it is going to make 348 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:36.680 you and just sort of suck your soul to the point that you were talking 349 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.920 about, because this isn't I don't know, this isn't like a job that 350 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:42.279 you can just like, Okay, I'm done. At the end of the 351 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:47.000 day. You're putting your whole heart and soul and your life into this. 352 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:49.480 Could you imagine if you could just check out? Could you imagine you just 353 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.799 can you clock out at five? And like, Okay, I don't. 354 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.200 I'm not a filmmaker anymore. I'm not a screenwrite anymore, to know, 355 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:57.319 Thank God, let me just care, let me just let me just get 356 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.799 a beer and drink and just chill and think about anything anymore. No, 357 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.400 it's I've called it a disease. It is a disease that you get bitten 358 00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.240 by the bug and that bug, and once you're bitten by the bug, 359 00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.039 it will never ever ever go away. It can go dormant for decades, 360 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.400 but eventually it will re surface in one way, shape or form. And 361 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:21.599 I do this because I've talked to sixty five year olds who are seven year 362 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.000 olds who's like, I'm retired now. What I really want to do is 363 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:30.559 direct and it happens. And there's really I don't even know what other industry 364 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.960 there is that that has that kind of insanity, you know, like, 365 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:36.799 look, I did the same thing you did. I did a little bit 366 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:37.559 later in life. I didn't do it in my mid twenties. It in 367 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:42.839 my early thirties where I packed up, moved cross country to California, new 368 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.079 two people, and this was my plan. My plan was I had to 369 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:53.400 rent an apartment in North Hollywood where one room would be where we slept and 370 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.480 the other room would be where I put up my editing system. And I 371 00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.720 was just gonna show up. Now, mind you, I had, I 372 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.880 had a decade of stuff behind me before I showed up. But even then, 373 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:07.680 I just, for whatever reason, I started working and I started working. 374 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.720 I started working and it worked out, but it could have very easily 375 00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:12.920 crash and burned. Oh yeah, I mean it's it's the same thing. 376 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.119 But I think that, like like you said, I mean, it sort 377 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:18.119 of goes back to the Hey, you have this like unwavering focus of what 378 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.680 you're going to do, and you don't have the sort of steps figured out, 379 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:26.119 but you're just really not going to be denied because yeah, because your 380 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:30.880 heart is in it to that point. And it is always fascinating, you 381 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:36.160 know, to find so many people that are really successful in other fields that 382 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.920 this is like a hobby for them, or this is something that they're pursuing 383 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.880 and this is you know, I but that's I don't know, that's what 384 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:47.119 kind of makes it. That's definitely what makes it so cool. You know, 385 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.599 I think of all the I mean, I tell people all the time, 386 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.039 I think I've just got like one of the greatest jobs that I of 387 00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.079 all the ways that you could kind of get up and earn a living and 388 00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:02.559 pay your bills. I get to get up every day and with an entire 389 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.599 company full of people do something that we like, genuinely truly care about, 390 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.279 and get to be with people that love the same things I love. And 391 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.319 that's that's what's so fun about stuff like this, you know that you were 392 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.759 saying, you know, getting together at Austin Film Festival, we just we 393 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.279 kind of find one another. You know, there's this this this little like 394 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:27.440 family that seems to emerge around the screenwriting community. Yeah. Absolutely, and 395 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.279 uh, without question this when when I started helping people with my podcasts and 396 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.480 with my websites and things like that, my life changed. And I think 397 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:40.839 I'm blessed just like you. I get to do what I love to do 398 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.680 on a daily basis, and uh, while I pursue my own projects and 399 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.839 I pursue my own you know, books and stories and other things and things 400 00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:51.799 that I like to do. Now, one thing that a lot of screenwriters 401 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:59.640 don't really get is the absolute necessity of networking and being able to make those 402 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:07.920 connecttions but make them in a very organic way, is opposed to hey man, 403 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.839 I hear you're a producer, here's my script. Yep. Yeah, 404 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:17.200 like I just met you, like you you know, it's like it's ridiculous. 405 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:22.319 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a I don't want to 406 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:26.519 generalize writers, and I'll say this that I used to be the exact same 407 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.400 way. I think that there's it's not that networking just makes a lot of 408 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:36.240 people uncomfortable, because let's let's just call networking what it is, which is 409 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:41.880 talking to strangers. It's you know, it's it is starting a conversation with 410 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.839 a stranger and and putting pressure on yourself to build a connection and a short 411 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.880 amount of time. And as a person that like my undergrad degree is in 412 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.400 English, I sat in the back. I spent most of college just reading, 413 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.640 you know, so I believe, like yes, going and talking to 414 00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.759 people that I didn't know was like my worst spirit at some point in time, 415 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.400 so I think that there's a reluctance to do it, and that's what 416 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.200 kind of fosters this idea of like, oh, it's just you just have 417 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.440 to know this person and they just give these jobs to their friends and things 418 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.599 like that, when it's like, like there's certainly a degree of that in 419 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:18.440 the industry, but there's like to put in perspective that if you're an exec 420 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.799 or a producer or a showrunner or someone around those people, you're going to 421 00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:29.720 get a stack of like two hundred scripts for one spot maybe and they're all 422 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.720 going to be good. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 423 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:42.400 and now back to the show. Yes, it's very common that you 424 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:45.559 break the tie, so to speak, with the opinion of a person that 425 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.000 you trust, or a person that you know, or a person that you 426 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.640 like or a person that you just you know is not going to let you 427 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.799 down in that situation. So take that for whatever it's worth in the scope 428 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.920 of networking. But to what you were saying, Yes, for some reason, 429 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:07.720 the like sentiment around networking seems to be just pitching any stranger that like 430 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:15.799 returns eye contact with you, And I feel like there is you've all been 431 00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:19.559 at a networking event, regardless of how big it is, where there's just 432 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:26.359 a person there that's just kind of on like a loop of just like they 433 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.359 give their project and their spiel to this person, and then they give their 434 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:32.160 project and their spiel to this person, and it's like, I think, 435 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:37.720 surely someone listening to this right now is like like they're feeling this like chills 436 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.440 down there. They're cringing, cringing. Yes, you know what it is 437 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:42.319 like to be on the other side of that. So like, yeah, 438 00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:48.119 don't don't be that person. To me, I always say, go in 439 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.759 with questions, go in with learn about who this person is, what they 440 00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:59.519 do, what's important to them, what they're working on right now, do 441 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:01.880 they have any problems that you can solve, Do they have any projects that 442 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:08.200 you can help on, And like trust that if they're working on something where 443 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:12.960 there is a world for you to collaborate, it's going to come up by 444 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:19.640 asking those questions that if you're you have this amazing horror feature spec and you 445 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.960 start, hey, so what do you do, what sort of projects do 446 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.000 you work on, what types of movies do you like, what types of 447 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.279 materials do you respond to? And they start saying, God, I just 448 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:29.839 love horror films, and we've got to finance here, and we're trying to 449 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.440 find something like this that fits your project. That is such a better way 450 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:37.640 to bring up your material and mention it to them versus going in and just 451 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.400 being like, I've got a horror feature. This is what it's about, 452 00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:42.799 and you should read it. And here's that. And it's like, I 453 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.240 work in TV. Why are you yelling at me? You know? Or 454 00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:51.160 also a screenwriter. I don't know what you want me to do. And 455 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:52.720 I was like walking It's like walking off to the Jason Blum and going, 456 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:58.240 hey, I've got this dog safe Christmas script. That's I think you'll be 457 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.839 perfect for it, Jason. And and the funny thing is I this is 458 00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:10.599 always infuriating. I get cold emails about pitching projects to me. I have 459 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:16.279 no power. I can't finance your script. I'm not looking for projects to 460 00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:20.400 produce. All you got to do is listen to three or four of my 461 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.200 podcasts or just read a couple articles and you'll understand who I am. And 462 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:28.319 people are just so desperate that they just just start throwing things out and and 463 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.200 it just gets deleted automatically. But you start like emailing, you know, 464 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:35.759 you get an IMDb pro account, you just start emailing people you script. 465 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:37.920 That is not the way to do it. The shotgun approach doesn't work. 466 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.200 You've got to be more surgical. Well yeah, and that's that. I 467 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.480 mean, we take the same approach because we do consult. I mean, 468 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:46.799 the thing is like, am I going to pretend that queries have a high 469 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:52.200 rate of success? No, they do not. However, we've worked with 470 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:54.960 writers that have one hundred percent found success with queries. Because I think that 471 00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.839 there's a there's a good way to do it. And so if you you 472 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:04.440 know, so much of what we do is like one, be really concise 473 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.079 and articulate. Get get through who you are while you're emailing them and what 474 00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:12.599 the ask is as quickly as possible. Because if you're emailing a person that 475 00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.360 works in the entertainment industry, there's a good chance that they have like two 476 00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:20.719 hundred emails in their inboks, and if they open it up and it is 477 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.480 five paragraphs of boiler plate, like even if you are a dead center bullseye 478 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:28.920 of what they're looking for right now, they just don't have time to do 479 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.760 that and they're going to delete it and to like what you were saying with 480 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.480 it. It's always like here's who I am, Here's what I do, 481 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:37.599 here's where I'm like emailing you. I love it if you know, if 482 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.559 it's a fit, I'd love for you to take a look at my script. 483 00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:44.000 If not, no worries, knowing that most people are not going to 484 00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:46.079 respond, But you might have a person that is looking exactly for that, 485 00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:49.920 and you're respectful and got to the point and they're like, yeah, sure, 486 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:54.400 send the script. At this point they've requested your material versus it's the 487 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:59.559 equivalent of like put again, put yourself in their shoes and use common sense 488 00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.039 of like catching the script in the initial email. How would you feel if 489 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.400 a person walked up to you on the street and was like, hey, 490 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.480 I heard that you can help me spend two hours reading this script and giving 491 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.960 me your thoughts on it. Your your response one hundred percent would be it's 492 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:21.920 awfully presumptuous to you to just assume that I'm going to do this, and 493 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.760 yet that that's kind of the common practice of queries, right right, it's 494 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:31.599 it's it's a fairly insane It's insanity, man, it really is. And 495 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.360 and so I also wanted to ask you this because I actually had this question 496 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:42.159 from a screenwriter the other day. Should a screenwriter sign a submission release form 497 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:47.679 if they're submitting to a producer or a company or something like that, they're 498 00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.000 The thing is like, they're they're common practice. You know that they're they're 499 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:58.159 commonplace. So don't think that you're signing your life away. You know, 500 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.119 I guess read it and make sure you're not signing your life away. But 501 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.679 I am guessing that somewhere in all of them, there's going to be a 502 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:06.800 cause that it's like, look, if you a year or two, five 503 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.159 years from now, see that we have a project that looks really similar to 504 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:14.880 something that you submitted to us, like, you can't sue us. And 505 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.920 the reason that's the case is because you can imagine what companies would be opening 506 00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:22.239 themselves up to if they didn't do that that if you you know, they're 507 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:27.119 already I think getting sued all the time for people trying to claim that. 508 00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.360 But if every script that was submitted to them, that any line or story 509 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:35.280 or beat or commonality that like appeared in a project that was later produced, 510 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:42.360 that's why they're doing it. At the same time, I I don't think 511 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.119 that you have any problem in signing it. I think that there's no I 512 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:52.719 don't know anybody that isn't looking for an amazing script and if they read your 513 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.000 script and love it and really respond to it, they'll work with you. 514 00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:00.320 Because I think that there's a perception among writers or a fear that oh, 515 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.840 they're going to read it and like my idea and steal it. And it's 516 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.000 just like, I don't know, I don't know if I've really seen that. 517 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.840 I don't really know why they why they necessarily would do that. But 518 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.960 at the same time, I totally get where the fear is coming from. 519 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:21.559 Yeah, I mean I've had heard of some people's ideas getting stolen or and 520 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:22.840 when I say stolen, it's more like, you know, they took a 521 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.039 couple of kernels and sure, all of a sudden, now they have something 522 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.679 new. I mean, I remember when we were the years ago, when 523 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:36.280 I had a script floating around that got to Sony and I said, they 524 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.559 asked for it because they'd seen one of my one of my films, and 525 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.760 I said, I submitted it to them, and they're like, oh, 526 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.320 we're going to pass because we have something similar in theme, and then two 527 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:52.880 years later that movie came out which was not not anything like not anything like 528 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:58.320 my script at all, but there were ideas and themes there. So you 529 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:02.559 have to protect yourself as I guess what you should one hundred percent protect yourself. 530 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.559 You should. It's one of the biggest things that I think is valuable 531 00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.199 about a platform like cover fly, because you you know, we have the 532 00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:13.880 writer platform where you can host your projects and your bio, and then we 533 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.519 have an industry facing portion of it where they can search for writers and projects. 534 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.760 But we really closely monitor the activity on that side of it, and 535 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.400 so if somebody downloads your script, we have a timestamp of when they downloaded 536 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.679 it. And this isn't necessarily a commercial for the data protection that is cover 537 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:35.840 Fly. It's it's to drive home the point that like, yes, you 538 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.239 should be precious with your material and and I think with a submission release form, 539 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:45.199 passing it along through a friend or having them request it is always going 540 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:49.559 to be the better option. So I would advise that with it, I 541 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:53.199 will say by no means am I an attorney, and you should always check 542 00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:59.960 with an attorney. Absolutely likely taking my advice. The consensus is you can 543 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:05.639 cannot copyright an idea, only the execution of an idea, because I do 544 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:10.920 think that like most screenwriters I know have had like an idea that they were 545 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.519 super excited about and then they see like a trailer they read in the trades 546 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.159 an idea that it's really similar. And I'm not going to pretend that that 547 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:25.280 doesn't just like it happens all all the time. Are you kidding me? 548 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.320 When I saw when I saw Clerks by Kevin Smith, I was working in 549 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:34.360 a video store, I'm like, son of a bitch, what did I 550 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.400 got? I had this idea? Why didn't I just execute it? Well? 551 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.119 There you no, truly, and so I'm I get it. I 552 00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.679 feel the pain of writers in that situation. What I will say, though, 553 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.760 is that I don't want to say that ideas are cheap. We'll be 554 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:57.840 right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. 555 00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:04.599 But good ideas are good. Ideas are easier to come by than the execution 556 00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:08.159 of good ideas. Truly, I think most screenwriters I know come up with 557 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:12.920 like five blockbusters in the shower and on their way to work in the morning. 558 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:15.960 You know, it's just like you're coming up with these ideas, and 559 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.840 really the tough part isn't executing it, so as tough as that can be, 560 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:22.559 it sort of goes back to what we were saying earlier of like you 561 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:27.440 got to be cranking out material, because man, if you're just kind of 562 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.559 hinging all your hopes on one project, you are kind of opening yourself up 563 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:35.039 to that, right, You are sort of opening yourself up to like, 564 00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:39.880 oh, I have to make this one thing go versus like really utilizing your 565 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:45.239 talents to give yourself multiple opportunities. Yeah, And I wanted to ask you 566 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:50.199 as well and kind of put this to rest for so many screenwriters out there, 567 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:52.840 this is my opinion. I'd love to hear yours. I get asked 568 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.360 all the time, how do you protect your screenplay? I go, you 569 00:40:55.400 --> 00:41:00.840 register it with the Library of Congress. That's the only one that matters. 570 00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:05.239 You could do it with the WGA, that's nice, but the WJA does 571 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.599 not hold up in court. The Library of Congress. That's the only one 572 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:13.280 that you have the boom and it's that and you can and again, you 573 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.840 can't do the idea, but you can do the actual screenplay. It's the 574 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:21.519 only way I know of and that I always recommend what about you sure, 575 00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:25.800 I mean, and that's I mean, that's you're probably gonna do that, 576 00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.880 right if your film is moving into any sort of production, right because at 577 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:34.440 some point, unless you're just kind of shooting the project yourself, somebody else 578 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.079 is going to need to own the script and they're going to help there. 579 00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:42.920 Yeah, once it gets into production, that's a you have to have that. 580 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:45.960 That's part of the chain of title. But prior to that, while 581 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.800 you're pitching and things like that, to make you feel better as a screenwriter, 582 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.480 you want to have the production spend thirty five bucks, forty bucks, 583 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:55.239 get a covered and don't mail it to yourself. That doesn't work. That's 584 00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:59.159 that's a myth. Don't mail it yourself because that's the thing. I think 585 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:01.880 that, like what you said there is it's making yourself feel better and giving 586 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:06.079 yourself the peace of mind to know that you have protected this version of this 587 00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.239 story. Otherwise, I think it's always good to have a paper trail, 588 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:15.400 right, And because I know that getting getting an attorney can be prohibitively expensive 589 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:20.159 for a lot of emerging screenwriters. Why it's just it's kind of like cover 590 00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.360 your basis to as much as is necessary for it. You know, if 591 00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:27.800 you're in the sort of like talking stages of a project and there's no real 592 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.079 money on the table, you probably don't need a fifteen page contract, right 593 00:42:30.679 --> 00:42:36.000 to like to find terms of what you know. But I think always just 594 00:42:36.039 --> 00:42:38.760 be really clear. And I think this goes into a lot of what we've 595 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:43.800 been saying, whether it's like working with a producer with a collaborator, especially 596 00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:47.039 when you sign with representation, because that's a whole separate discussion we get with 597 00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:54.639 writers is just be really clear about being on the same page of expectations, 598 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:59.639 because I think that that's where a lot of problems come from, right which 599 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:04.559 is with I think a lot of writers with producers are being afraid of getting 600 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:08.199 taken advantage of, or afraid of their material being mishandled. Which is why 601 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:14.480 you know, before you embark on a working relationship established, if the expectation 602 00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:15.880 is like, Okay, we want to, we want you to, we 603 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:20.039 want to develop this with you, does that mean one draft and a polish 604 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:24.039 or does that mean like infinite read writes until I'm happy with it over some 605 00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:29.440 nonspecific period of time. Because if you think one thing and they think another, 606 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.599 the project's kind of doomed before it even gets started. And same applies 607 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:37.719 to working with a manager or an agent, which brings me to my next 608 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:44.159 question, the agent and manager conundrum, where there's so many screenwriters think that 609 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:51.239 all you need is Ari Gold from Entourage and if they represent you, they're 610 00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:52.679 going to get you the million dollars, they're going to get your career in 611 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:54.639 a skull. And people are like, how can I get an agent? 612 00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:57.800 How can I get a manager? I'm like, and I always ask them, 613 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.840 how many scripts do you have? I have won and a couple of 614 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:06.519 ideas. I'm like, you're not ready for an agent. And I've known 615 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.039 writers who've won the Nichols, who placed in the Nickels, who've placed in 616 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:16.920 multiple big and they get signed and they go nowhere because the management is like, 617 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:25.199 should I push Shane Black or should I pull should I push Bob who 618 00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:29.880 I just signed? Talented? But what's gonna be how am I gonna make 619 00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:31.400 what am I gonna make the most money from? Where's my money? Where's 620 00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:35.320 my R O Y and R O D? You know going to make the 621 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.880 most sense? So can you please kind of demystify the whole agent manager thing? 622 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:49.039 For people. It is undoubtedly the most popular question that we get and 623 00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.599 I don't. I actually don't know what's even a close second. It is 624 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.360 always how do I get a manager? Right? That is the that is 625 00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:00.639 the the holy grail of emerging screenwriters. And I get it right because I 626 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:06.480 think that the perception is I think you're sort of feeling that for a stration 627 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:08.840 of being on the outside looking in the lack of access, the lack of 628 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:13.480 opportunity, and like, yes, a manager and agent can solve that. 629 00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:16.760 But if there is this perception that like, Okay, great, I signed 630 00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:19.920 with the manager, I cracked my knuckles, I put my feet up, 631 00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:23.320 and I just wait for the deals to roll in, that's definitely like not 632 00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:28.039 the case. Right. Like it is, you're going to be facing a 633 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:30.719 lot of the sort of same struggles, and even the writers that we do 634 00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:35.079 know with representation are still having to grind and get to that next step. 635 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:39.000 I can't remember. I can't remember who said this to me, because I 636 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.320 would give credit if I could recall. But I think we made the comparison 637 00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:50.800 of like you view getting a manager like having an accountant, Like does your 638 00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.480 career you have money? Does your career necessitate having a manager right now, 639 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:59.519 and in the same way that it's like, if you've just got like your 640 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.480 ten nine and your W twos, you can probably file your own taxes right, 641 00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:07.480 and you can, you can get your own opportunities and develop your material 642 00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.880 and build that. But if your career gets to a point where you need 643 00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:15.039 a REP, it's just a much clearer kind of pathway right and getting to 644 00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.800 a point where you need a manager and need an agent. And that's not 645 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.119 to say that people don't sign with representation very earlier in their very early in 646 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:25.440 their career, but it's usually much more common that you've built top a degree 647 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:30.480 of sort of like momentum and opportunity, and the managers not just kind of 648 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.760 picking somebody starting somebody from scratch, because I think with you know, a 649 00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:42.719 couple of things one think about it from the perspective of the manager. To 650 00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:45.400 go back to the queries, We've seen a lot of writers that approach reps 651 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.719 and the consensus is, hey, you should sign me as a client because 652 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.920 I really want a manager. And it's like that doesn't like, what does 653 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:58.239 that do? I mean? I think to them, right like, look, 654 00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:00.679 this is their job, this is their livelihood, that yes, it 655 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:05.760 is art and it's passion and it's emotion, and it's this thing that they 656 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:07.920 deeply care about. But this is also their livelihood. This is how they 657 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:12.719 pay their bills, and their job is to assemble a roster of clients and 658 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:16.159 projects that are going to make money that they collect a commission on. So 659 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.599 it might not be the sole determinant in their decision, but it's going to 660 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:25.400 be a portion of it. So if you you know, if you understand 661 00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:30.480 that, yes, they need to respond to the material, but also have 662 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.719 this idea of where your career is going to look right and sort of have 663 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:37.679 these opportunities and what working together is going to look like. Getting to the 664 00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:44.480 part that you're a working writer in that conversation because the other I think it 665 00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:50.840 goes back to the sense of indie filmmaking, which I special place in my 666 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.000 heart. My heart is always in indie filmmaking and will be in indie features. 667 00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:00.800 The economics of it don't always make sense to have a rep. Because 668 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:05.079 if I'm a rep and I get ten percent of your projects and your deals, 669 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.639 and you make a low budget feature, let's just even say grand, 670 00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:12.960 yeah, one hundred grand, right, and so you if you're making any 671 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:17.119 money as the writer director, you know, it's let's say you get fifteen 672 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:21.480 grand, right, which is now there's no way that you take fifteen percent 673 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:27.639 of the budget. Let's say that you get five grand, and you're probably 674 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:30.639 working on that project for like at least a year. That means that their 675 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:37.559 commission is five hundred dollars for one year. That even if they love you, 676 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:40.599 love the project, care about the material, it just it's really tough 677 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:47.519 to dedicate any jobs anything right to five hundred dollars over twelve months, versus 678 00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.880 something that's going to yield that. But I don't I don't want to taint 679 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:54.159 the perception because I really I think so much about it too. Is just 680 00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:58.960 finding that right fit, is finding the person that gets you, gets your 681 00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.239 material, gets this sort of vision for your career, and you can work 682 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:09.440 with and building that relationship. At the same time, don't underestimate your own 683 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:15.559 ability to generate those opportunities. We come across writers all the time that have 684 00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:21.360 gotten their projects sold, that have gotten themselves staff done, series that have 685 00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.480 episode credits, that are getting sort of meetings with major studios and streamers, 686 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.360 and there's no really one way to do it. It's just a lot of 687 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:36.039 networking and leveraging relationships and sharing their material and maximizing those relationships that getting themselves 688 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.760 to that point. The discussion of pursuing representation becomes so much easier, right 689 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.000 because if you're you're kind of painting this picture of like, hey, here's 690 00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:46.719 what my career is going to look like, it's much easier when it's tangible 691 00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:52.159 and you're working in a writer's room versus just off of like the samples. 692 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:58.880 If that makes sense, Yeah, it does make sense, and I want 693 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:02.159 to ask you as well. So many screenwriters will walk into a room, 694 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.320 you know, like let's say, let's say perfect scenarios. They get a 695 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:10.719 manager. Manager gets them a meeting at a studio because they had one sample 696 00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:15.360 script that they loved, and they're like, I like this guy's voice or 697 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:16.559 I like this guy's voice. Let's get them. Let's get them in and 698 00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:20.880 let's have a meet. They come in, they're like, okay, what 699 00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.559 do we love this script? We can't produce this, this is it's unproducible. 700 00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:28.599 What else do you have? So that's the moment where a lot of 701 00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.400 deer in headlines because they're like, wait a minute, that took me three 702 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:36.360 years to do and I don't have any I have three ideas. And if 703 00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:38.000 you have three ideas, you're pretty much dead in the water because everybody has 704 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.719 ideas. Everybody in that room has ideas. But you can't produce an idea. 705 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.199 You got to produce a script. So how many scripts, in your 706 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:50.920 opinion, is a good number projects that you should walk into with a meeting 707 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:55.239 like that, like real, like real real things will be right back after 708 00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:04.920 a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Yeah, I 709 00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:09.199 mean it's I guess, uh. Two answers to that, Like one, 710 00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:13.000 the idea thing is interesting, I guess I won't say. But one of 711 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:16.280 the more prestigious writing and directing fellowships. I've spoken to writers that have been 712 00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:21.119 through it, where the first couple of weeks is literally no writing, no 713 00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.360 development, just ideas, and they make you come up with a bunch of 714 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.559 ideas and then they throw them out and make you come off with new ideas. 715 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:31.880 And speaking to the writers that have been through that program, they say 716 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.519 that is the most difficult part, more so than notes and writing and rewriting, 717 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:40.920 because you're just you're you're getting down to like the marrow of who am 718 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:45.320 I as a creator? Like what is my twenty fifth idea? Or is 719 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:52.239 my twenty fifth new fresh idea? But I think that puts in perspective of 720 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.320 just like the standard that you have to sort of hold yourself to as well 721 00:51:54.360 --> 00:52:00.679 as like I think after a certain point you get good at generating those ideas 722 00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:05.400 knowing it to your question with a you know, the two parts of it, 723 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:09.800 I would say the samples. I think most people really want to see 724 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:14.960 what you can do and whether that is it. I would say at least 725 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.800 too maybe you know, if you've got like fifteen, it's sort of like, 726 00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:22.039 oh man, this person just kind of like how like polished or any 727 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:25.480 of these even if they are polished, the perception of seeing fifteen I think 728 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.880 so at least to probably like three or four. But really the more important 729 00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:35.400 thing is having a consistency and like what your voice, what your talent is, 730 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.800 what your perspective is, and showing how it applies consistently but in different 731 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:44.880 means. You know, there is no shortage in the world, but especially 732 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:49.800 in Southern California, of people that can write just a really excellent, tight 733 00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.480 feature or one hour half hour pilot like that is not hard to come by. 734 00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:57.360 So if you're going in with like, oh, I can write a 735 00:52:57.400 --> 00:53:00.960 feature, you're kind of short changing, you know, right right in the 736 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:05.079 horror future writer, like, great, you're the one we've been waiting for. 737 00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:13.639 You Bob or Bob Bob really has no clue. But like, truly 738 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.480 as sentimental as it sounds, like, what no one else, literally no 739 00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:21.719 one else in the world has is how you tell this story. Your perspective, 740 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:27.039 your experience is what you are bringing to the page. And as much 741 00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:30.920 as you can articulate that as well as display that on the page, whether 742 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.519 that's across four samples there two, whether it's across a you know, one 743 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.920 hour procedural and a thriller feature. I think that's kind of the key to 744 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:43.400 it. And then within that meeting, Yeah, that's every general ever, 745 00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:45.960 right, which is we love this is the greatest thing ever, but it's 746 00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:49.880 not what we're making right now. So let's spend the next like fifty nine 747 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:53.800 minutes figuring out what to talk about here. And I think it goes back 748 00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:59.320 to what I was saying about networking, right, which is, if you 749 00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:04.159 don't take the effort to understand and you should have done you know, hopefully 750 00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:06.599 you've done some research before the meeting, But if you don't make an effort 751 00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:10.039 to understand what is it that they're working on right now, what is it 752 00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:15.320 that they're developing, what is it that they're maybe struggling with or really looking 753 00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:19.840 for or excited about, and what do I have that fits that? I 754 00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:23.239 think that's again, it's a much easier discussion to have because you know what 755 00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:30.119 you have in your arsenal. And if they happen to be looking for this 756 00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:34.719 high concept project that you've only kind of fleshed out a little bit and maybe 757 00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:38.639 only have a treatment for, you can get to that by asking those questions. 758 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:42.639 Whereas if you just fired off, oh, I've got like a comedy 759 00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:45.159 feature sample in this one hour, you're now like zero for three with them, 760 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:49.400 Whereas you have this idea that they wanted to develop with you, if 761 00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:52.840 you could have just sort of like worked to that in the conversation, and 762 00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:55.320 that's kind of typically the advice we give for generals and things like that. 763 00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:00.159 Yes, the water bottle tour, if you're lucky enough to go on the 764 00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:02.920 water bottle to her, that's good. Zoom to her now right, Yeah, 765 00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:07.000 now it's a zoom to our way. Now it's a zoom to you 766 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:14.320 bring your own bottle? Uh with you. Now I'm gonna ask a few 767 00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:15.960 questions, ask all my guests. Uh, what is the lesson that took 768 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.679 you the longest to learn? Whether in the film industry or in life? 769 00:55:20.840 --> 00:55:30.280 Oh, my goodness, we're really it's tom. I guess I'll give both. 770 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:35.039 I think I think in the film industry, it's just it's kind of 771 00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:37.320 seeing it for what it is. And I mean that in the best sense, 772 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:40.800 right, It's like it's an industry industry, right, you know? 773 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:49.239 And and I think that any time that you are asking people to in you, 774 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.880 to give you money, and in some cases a lot of money to 775 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:58.079 make your project or to write a project, you do have to understand that 776 00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:02.840 there's a degree of business that goes into it. To recycle all my metaphors, 777 00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:07.719 I say, you know, Nike doesn't just like design a shoe and 778 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.400 then put it on the shelves and hope that people buy it. There's there's 779 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:16.000 an entire presentation of why Nikes are cool and why you should buy them, 780 00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:20.920 and why they're better than other shoes, and that's why you sell them and 781 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:22.480 like to a sense, that's what you have to do as a screenwriter, 782 00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:27.920 and there's no substitute for excellent writing, and the writing always comes first. 783 00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:35.000 But I think the tough lesson is like understanding the business circumstances that go into 784 00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:40.880 most decisions, but accepting that that's okay, that is something that you can 785 00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:45.280 use to your advantage, and that doesn't mean that you have to I don't 786 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:51.199 know, rue that it's all about the money and that you can navigate it 787 00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:57.880 and and understand that to your advantage in life. I think, like you 788 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:00.239 and I were talking before we started, I just think like getting getting a 789 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:05.840 little older, you like calm down a little bit. I think is kind 790 00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:07.079 of trust that, like, look, things are going to be okay. 791 00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:13.320 I've had enough sort of like one year, five year, ten year plans 792 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:17.280 that just kind of like go out the window, perhaps none more spectacularly than 793 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:22.159 in March of twenty twenty, when I, you know, have spent the 794 00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:25.039 past year and a half in counting at home. And I think that's really 795 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:29.599 kind of informed the philosophy that we impart to writers, which is like just 796 00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:32.679 remember what's important, remember what the ultimate goal is. Don't make it harder 797 00:57:32.679 --> 00:57:37.679 on yourself by like defining the steps along the way as well as saying that 798 00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.199 you have to do it. There's no timeline on this. You know, 799 00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:45.039 there's tons of people that break in in their early twenties and their mid thirties 800 00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:49.519 or later. You know, just just have focused on what you're going to 801 00:57:49.599 --> 00:57:53.360 do and try and take steps towards. That's That's the best I've gott in 802 00:57:53.400 --> 00:57:57.440 terms of a life philosophy. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough? 803 00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:06.679 What are three screenplays every screen writer should read? I'm going to go back 804 00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:10.960 to. I'm thinking of my Uh, I'm thinking of when in my reader 805 00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:20.880 days, when I was reading at reading at Kevin Mescher's company. It had 806 00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:24.639 already come out, But I think that the screenplay for Little Missed Sunshine is 807 00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:31.360 just brilliant. It's like it's a it's a novel. I don't know if 808 00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:36.199 we can retroactively give it like a Pulitzer or something. No it is, 809 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:38.880 it is. It is a brilliant It is a brilliant script and a brilliant 810 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:43.199 film. Yeah, brilliant. And it's UH to just to just sort of 811 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:47.960 have this really this like dark, quirky comedy that is this also deep exploration 812 00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:54.199 of Pristian philosophy that is like readily apparent on the first page and then perfectly 813 00:58:54.280 --> 00:58:58.719 executed for the rest of the script. That was the first one that came 814 00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:04.920 to mind. I remember reading the script. This probably dates me, but 815 00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:12.119 I remember reading the script for Crazy Stupid Love acript also and a great script 816 00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:16.000 that when I read it, and I forget what draft I read, was 817 00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:22.679 like near identical to the film that they ended up producing, like down down 818 00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:28.079 to the like lines of down down to like specific words of just sort of 819 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:32.239 I say that one not necessarily for like a philosophical or thematic of just like 820 00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:37.920 this is what a produced screenplay looks like. This is a read the screenplay 821 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:39.360 before I saw the film, and then I saw the film and it was 822 00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:43.880 like, oh, that's like verbatim that these guys just like got it up 823 00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:50.079 onto the screen man. Then the last one, I feel like I should 824 00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:53.119 give a shout out to a cover fly writer. No, I mean this 825 00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:55.760 is three of all times, so you don't have to feel all time, 826 00:59:55.840 --> 01:00:01.880 so they're not they're not whole. I mean, we'll be right back after 827 01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:12.519 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I guess 828 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.920 that's problem now, I don't know how much it's changed, but again from 829 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:20.480 my like the last Duel, which is finally coming out, I say, 830 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:24.400 that's a sort of put in perspective, like there was some major talent attached 831 01:00:24.440 --> 01:00:30.360 to it when I read that script ten years ago and it is just coming 832 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.360 out now, and I think it had kind of made the rounds then, 833 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:37.840 just in the sense of, like I say that one to maybe just be 834 01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:45.920 cheesy, and that it can sometimes it is like some really a list people 835 01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:47.719 were on that script, and it still took ten years, you know, 836 01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:52.679 to just right. You know, I'm so pumped to see it because it 837 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.840 was amazing and the fact that I think that's a testament to reading hundreds, 838 01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.400 if not thousands of screenplays since then, that I still I still remember it, 839 01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:06.239 and I don't know, I just gave myself goosebumps with it because there's 840 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:09.599 there's a there's what we love about it, right that it's just all about 841 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:15.280 building that connection with the with the material that that it does stick with you 842 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:19.280 years and years after the fact. Thomas, it's been a pleasure talking to 843 01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:22.320 you, man. I know we can continue talking for three hours more, 844 01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:27.920 but I truly appreciate I know you have a young one that you're taking care 845 01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:31.440 of, so and you're probably exhausted, and you're probably exhausted. I've got 846 01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:36.599 a I have a two month old daughter, and so I've noticed that I 847 01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:39.000 just kind of start a sentence now and it just I forget, I forget 848 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:42.360 how I started it, and I just kind of go and till every run 849 01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:45.599 out of steam. So hopefully your listeners and your viewers that this made, 850 01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:52.320 that this made sense and bearing with me, No, I by all means, 851 01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:55.119 I think before we run out of time, head over to cover fly. 852 01:01:55.320 --> 01:02:00.320 Yes, get the account set up. You know, that's always kind 853 01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:02.039 of the first step, regardless of where you're at in your writing career, 854 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:07.280 what you're looking to do, just by creating the profile completely free to do 855 01:02:07.400 --> 01:02:10.880 so, we can find you and direct you to the resources that are that 856 01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:15.159 are most useful to what you're looking to do and and our team will be 857 01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:19.440 able to support. And one of those resources, of course, is is 858 01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:22.719 the coverage service that we were talking about beforehand, bullproscript Coverage. Yeah. 859 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:27.719 So I sure, I truly, I truly appreciate you, brother, thank 860 01:02:27.719 --> 01:02:30.960 you for doing all the good work you're doing with screenwriters out there and helping 861 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:37.239 them navigate this shark infested, you know, alligator snapping kind of world that 862 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:39.960 it is, unfortunately, but I do truly appreciate you man. Thank you 863 01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:45.840 again, my pleasure well to thank Thomas so much for coming on the show 864 01:02:45.880 --> 01:02:49.159 and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, 865 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:51.559 Thomas. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this 866 01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.360 episode, head over to the show notes at bulletprooh Screenwriting dot tv, ford 867 01:02:55.360 --> 01:03:00.599 Slash one for six, and if you haven't already, please head over to 868 01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:05.719 Screenwriting podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. 869 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:08.239 It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again for listening guys, 870 01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:14.079 as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. 871 01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:20.320 Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.