Good morning, Mother? Good morning dial, Mother, Comonic sphere of the
Fund. Good morning, Mother. Wait Welcome one more day, one more
Saturday, to our podcasts live, here, in space Fundación Telefónica, these
programs that we have been doing for years and that makes us so much illusion
because we bring the world of the family, we bring the topics that interest
us at home and also in school, to a very technological environment, but
also very open to reality and very open to what happens to us at home
and to what concerns us parents. So, thank you all so much for
being here, all of you on the other side of the stream, all
of you here with us. You have an open network WIFICE you have your
password on the screen, because you want to tweet about complaining things can be
asking questions or telling in networks that you are in a chat taking advantage of
Saturday morning. Speaking of artificial intelligence, that this puts a lot, of
course, we have workshop for the smallest and smallest, the smallest, and
we have our monitors to the sea and mauve, I was going to say
dawn half sea and dawn mauve and sea month I have not given one to
see. I' ve tried. So the kids you want to go and
play, because they' re going to be able to enjoy a workshop,
of course thematic, because artificial intelligence. Evidently, these creatures will know much
more than we do. And with that reflection begins today' s program.
Because I don' t know if you and you who are here today have
a lot of knowledge of artificial intelligence. I don' t know how you
go about content, if you are very trained, very trained, if you
are experts, experts, without artificial intelligence, because I assume my ignorance from
now on. In fact, this is the first time we have addressed this
issue in any of our podcasts, not only in the mother space sphere,
but in all our podcasts. We have not yet touched on the issue of
artificial intelligence because it terrifies, because I have no idea and, in fact,
came here today saying, my mother. It is one of the programmes
that I have had the most difficulty preparing, in the sense that I find
it very difficult to know exactly what we were talking about. How difficult it
is to prepare for this concept and teach our children about something that we ourselves
are not educated about. So I' m really looking forward to my guests,
guests, helping us out today. I hope and I think so,
because they know a lot about this topic, to give a little light,
friends, a little certainty in a field that is changing while we were talking.
And I used to tell Silvia, I feel like an ia not between
anything. I still don' t know the answers we need to be able
to address this issue with a little bit of security, so we can tell
our creatures, because this is right or this is wrong. This way we
' re good, don' t do your homework like that. That'
s not good. That' s bad. That could be great. That
' s today' s target. I hope we get out of here with
concepts a little bit clearer or perhaps a lot more doubt. It can also
be true and who are my guests today, because we go with them because
I am delighted and really thank you for accompanying me on a Saturday morning,
with the time you do outside with the only thing that is Madrid today.
It' s good to be gathered here. I welcome Maria del Mar Sanchez.
Thank you very much. Known on Twitter as mayemar, which I have
known for many years and have also collaborated on several podcasts. She is a
member of the Educational Technology Research Group, a full professor of the Department of
Teaching and School Organization of the University of Murcia and a PhD in Pedagogy.
Moreover, Mary of the Sea, You and I, not well, met
virtually precisely in a podcast also mother space sphere during the pandemic. Yeah,
what? In addition, it had as its title a question that perhaps we
could rescue today even where our education is going. With that we can make
three editions more true on that occasion, with Sofiadez and José Carlos Ruiz,
the philosopher José Carlos Ruiz, but that today I have thought about it,
I say what good question to ask you back to where the education is going,
because right now, if we had a magic ball, it would be
wonderful. I think we are at a difficult time, because there are many
changes, there are many social, legislative changes and artificial intelligence, in a
way, they are still algorithms, they are operating machines. But it is
true that some tools that have emerged recently put questions, some dynamics, such
as duties, etc, but that really put evidence, things that, perhaps
a long time ago should have changed. Nor is it that I do anything
new, but that they do not put evidence. Finished energy. Then we
' ll talk about it now, because I think it' s one of
the great hairs of this whole thing. Hey, this program can be subtitled
as melon, because we have everything we mention. We have along with María
del Mar, Juan David Rodríguez García, professor of secondary education, technical advisor
teacher at the Institute of Educational Technologies and Training, the teachers and developer of
educational software that you will talk about later and I the first question that I
wanted to ask you is this from a young age, that you knew you
wanted to dedicate yourself to things that are not invented. Not really, I
don' t know that I' ve been small for a long time and
you don' t remember very well. I wanted to be a doctor,
you' re the doctor. I think good. Thank you very much.
First to watch a guest, the first time I ever did a podcast.
I' m very happy to be here and I wanted to start there as
a kid. I know when I was a kid I wanted to be doctors
first. Then the blood saw that it gave me a certain Hispanic and I
drifted towards engineering, which is a teleco engineer. Then I don' t
know what happened in high school, because I had good teachers of mathematical physics
and eventually ended up studying physics. And well, and how I got here,
because the truth is that I don' t know coincidences, that is
by chance, but well, now I' m in the Faculty Information Technology
STI and, in fact, I developed an artificial quartering tool that, yes,
well, if you want, then I can do a little bit about
it. Then we will develop, because Juanda has an open, besides,
to everyone, to the whole audience, a series of tools that you have
to know. And last but not least, my h plays already Monica de
Miguel, who is a telecommunications engineer, with twenty- five years of experience,
has been consulting educational innovation here in a telephone foundation and is director of
the family area, the Observatory of Artificial Intelligence for Education. So you know
all about the intelligence artivityes for the depre we' re not all watching ah
clear observatory, we' re so being. I, like my colleagues,
want to give you long amonic because I have also come many times there,
I have also been on the foundation team that I also give a very great
greeting to all my colleagues who manage this space. And I think that,
as I said sea we are in a very big change, but that it
is not merely an educational change, it is a social change and it is
a change of era and we are living a few years that we do not
live, that were the first years of the industrial revolution, where there was
no school and it was a bit chaotic to pass from some professions that were
in the world of horse, that were in the world of architecture, of
agriculture and were in the world of crafts. And all of a sudden,
we passed the factories and there were many years where we didn' t know
what to do and that' s where the school was built. And I
think we were in that process, that we started from a school that was
the solution at a given time, but that we are now entering another cycle
and of course, we are seeing that what is coming is dislocating us,
as we traditionally do. But in addition, we have some needs, that
is, one of the things that is on the table, but that we
may not be aware of. It is that one of the six European priorities
is to develop a digital society, that is, that we can be citizens
and live well with technology, and I think it is one of the main
things that we need to start educating. Now, when you mentioned the industrial
revolution, I have thought, my mother, about the changes that there were
at that time the solution in school. Perhaps at that time there was debate
between children should stop working in factories and go to school and there would be
a sudden debate with a person contradicting. No, the kids have to keep
working. Please, that' s where children' s civil rights came out
as a result of the industrial revolution, just like most of the civil rights
we know now. That time we cannot bring it here, of course,
but it does seem curious to me when I see certain debates and things that
are still being debated or that arise when we come to points like these,
in which there are such important transformations, we start at the base, it
is worth it because artificial intelligence is not something new, but help us a
little bit between the three of us and tell us what we are talking about
when we talk about artificial intelligence. Good at that. I think Juan now
that and Monica are the most technical experts. I do want to point it
out before they don' t explain it on a technical level. What'
s underneath is that artificial intelligence now seems to have come up behind the curtain,
but it' s been living with us for a long time in our
day- to- day lives. There is even a branch of psychology that
is very interesting that addresses how our decision- making is conditioned by artificial intelligence
algorithms. Because behind what we' re looking for on the Internet, the
recommendation systems, many of the applications we use, there' s artificial intelligence.
And in education. There are also many platforms in education that call it
personalizing, but I don' t like to call personalizing. I think it
personalizes the teacher, that what the machine does is individualize a series of contents
and are itineraries. And in the United States there are artificial intelligence systems that
already make decisions about university access and certain issues that have an interesting ethical component.
So, artificial intelligence already lived with us this group of tools that has
been called artificial generative intelligence, that also existed, but that because of the
fact, I bete and other tools that have impacted socially by its use,
because it has generated the specific dynamic approach and that we can talk about later.
But I just wanted to contribute that artificial intelligence is not new and neither
is education. In fact, processing, natural language, automatic feedback, intelligent
tutors, all of this already existed. And for me if it' s
important to point out that under the technology it' s not neutral and below,
but the textbooks aren' t careful either, because we see it very
clearly. In technology we pose it as bad, but one of neutrals is
cultural artifacts that we people realize and there its already is a vision of the
world. That' s why the importance of training our own models was discussed
earlier. And neither in education and whether it is a way of learning and
what it is to teach. And so far artificial intelligence in education has had
a very cognitivist vision of understanding that learning and mastering a content and, therefore,
I offer you an itinerary for that content and personalize it. So I
think we are also at a time that can be a turning point to generate
technology that takes into account a more ethical, more social vision and a different
vision of what it is to learn and that the teacher is not going to
be replaced. If you understand what your teaching role is, if you consider
that basically giving content is that it is no longer artificial intelligence is that the
video already made these things possible. But, well, that' s what
I do every time I talk to melon, I leave it and it happens
to my partners. I' m past my partner to address the technical part
that they' re going to do studyally. Okay. I think artificial intelligence
is a technical term, a bit unfortunate. From a marketing point of view,
the best is very good. And, in fact, as Abri said,
artificial bad intelligence has been with us for a long time. It is
a contemporary of computer science, that is, the first idea of rendering unana
that are precisely the algorithms that are used right now in all artificial intelligence and
included chapte. For that first idea arises in the year forty- five,
forty- six, I do not remember very well the idea of making a
mathematical model of how the lookouts behave, how they communicate with each other,
when the term of artificial intelligence is not yet created. Then, then,
one of the parents of computer science, of mathematics, Alan Turing, because
he also writes a seminal article in which he says something like this in the
first line, can the machines think or something like that was called and is
already giving the introduction to what is going to be understood by artificial intelligence.
And in the fifties, there is a kind of word Wong workshop in which
a series of machines, machines, I mean people in the sense, that
is, scientists, not careful machine. We' re already mowing in language
be careful and all I' m saying is not very powerful researchers like Minsky.
And very good, because there arises for the first time the term artificial
intelligence. And well, it' s actually been the development of artificial intelligence,
because it' s very parallel to computer science, because I' m
not going to say it' s the same thing, but it has a
lot to do with it. Moreover, it is a term that has had
moments of great glory and moment of much oblivion throughout history. From that moment
on, right now we are in a term of total glory, which they
call hype of much, as they say, of much enthusiasm, not totally.
Right now, it may be one of the highest moments in the term,
but that happened throughout history, moments in which from departments, since it
defines computing and so on, they had to put in their projects also artificial
intelligence for financing them and others who don' t comment because we' re
not going to give it hard You know, it' s gone that way,
not all the time. So much so that one of the parents of
artificial intelligence I think it was also MS that I don' t remember,
the names of truth that sometimes dance to me and especially, when I'
m like this, it' s a little bit, it' s a
or if indeed, but well, one of the parents said something like that
artificial intelligence was all that in science, in computing was still not resolved that
as soon as it was resolved, because it was no longer artificial intelligence.
And it is true, there was a time when the development of programming language,
for example lesk or fortan or any of these languages was considered artificial intelligent,
because it was creating programs with which the human could understand with the machine
in a language similar to the formal human, but it is the miracle,
the human not in the sincere seconds that the machine really understands. Then the
development of that language was considered artificial intelligence. Right now, someone says I
' m going to invent a new language, so cool no one can think
of saying that I' m artificial intelligence, that it' s already so
developed, it' s so. Any first- class student the second computer
can develop a language has the tools to do so. A new language and
indeed, I believe that in many of the universities it is a practically necessary
project. So all this has been changing everything, and that vision of artificial
intelligence is that sack of things where everything that is not yet resolved comes in.
It seems very illustrative to me, because possibly chaptds of that artificial intelligence
in a time, why it could not happen if we go looking at the
story and we see how different problems have been solved that they entered that non
generic sac that, moreover, from the point of marketing, is very good,
because they are two words as well as very powerful, that have been
used continuously, also in science fiction And then there are also such open terms
that I understand that, from the point of psychology the term intelligence is not
yet a defction that all the experts on which this has this kind of thing
agree. In the end, then, what this is about, because it
is about the machine being able to solve problems for what some kind of elements
of congnition, elements of thought or even not of human thought are needed.
Also how they can solve animal problems when faced with a particular situation and have
to see the environment in which they live and make a quick determination. So
that can also be considered artificial intelligence. And right now, because we are
with a technology, specifically HEXAGPT, that has managed to speak very well,
to build very coherent phrases so much that in some cases I don' t
know what you are using If habeillo that to think writes means that I man
and in language is something so human. It' s such a human tool.
Practically to do anything. We need a tool something to talk about.
We don' t need anything, so we could be naked right now.
The thing is, it' s gonna give him a little cut and we
could be talking. We don' t even need clothes to talk, that
' s something very, very, very human. So, when we see
a machine that speaks also as a human, it is inevitable to think that
there is a certain humanity in the machine and the problem is that there is
not. There' s a lot of statistics. It is incredible that with
so much statistics we can get to produce texts so precise, not so well
constructed, because they can say anything in a moment the news, because it
is true. So, I live in a complicated moment right now, because
it is inevitable that the human to something that speaks, gives him some authority
and if he is a machine, he can even give him more authority.
And that' s a little problem that I think we have to deal with
and we have to deal with the point of view not only partner, but
from education, from the beginning, because, well, certain can happen,
I don' t know unwelcome situations because I attribute a theurity to something that
doesn' t have it. And that problem, well, now, then,
then we' ll talk about it, because of course it already has
a lot of alsage t t and especially in the world of education. Monican
has explained to us that definition of everything that remains to be solved so beautiful,
but that is what is actually sold as artificial intelligence. That' s
what that uncertain definition is all about, that' s what they' re
offering us today. I agree with what Juanda says that word and artificial intelligence
at marketing level. It' s very easy for you to say it and
hear it, because if I told you models of computational thinking like that it
wouldn' t have had that success. And there we go about everything is
what remains to be solved, but we' ve been using those models.
What he says seventy- five years. Seventy- five years ago they started
from these models and now we' ve been using them in a lot of
things for over a decade. We recommend, friends, we recommend what series
to watch. We recommend that you listen, we have it fully integrated into
our day to day, that is Google Map. It recommends us to go
to a place and we use it, and it' s a tool that
took us for so many things. So what happens that what this revolution has
really done to us has been that artificial intelligence is no longer only able to
recommend things to us based on how we use it. No, because and
now the first thing I wanted to try to move. Artificial intelligence mimics a
series of behaviors of human intelligence, a series of mental processes, but it
is not complete human intelligence, but we are interpreting that it is. But
it' s not like that. Artificial intelligence what it does is classify a
lot of information that we give it and that with all that data that we
' ve given it, I can say, let' s take a case
you upload a lot of pictures of dogs and cats and tell it this is
a cat, this is a dog. And when you give him a picture
of all that you' ve told him, he has to know if it
' s a dog or a cat. That' s what we do when
we' re little. Since we' re little, we learn to identify
and with that helps us to have a series of patterns to move in life.
So that' s what we' re asking machines with a lot more
data, and we' re applying it to all sectors somehow. What is
the change that makes us all say it from last year on television and everywhere,
because already algorithms were making many decisions for us that, suddenly, artificial
intelligence can not only predict how you use one thing, but can be invented,
used in another way, or that you can invent a text that,
or whatever, can invent an image. I was telling you before I started
that here you have on the third floor there is an exhibition of works of
art made with artificial intelligence. But to do those works of art have been
done a lot, that they have been created and said now you do something
to me in my style. Then we are not used to this tool,
because it has never existed. But this tool gives us different possibilities that we
have to begin to understand that we have to understand where good use is and
where misuse is and everything that implies if we talk about copyright, where these
works of art come from, no, appropriation, no, and whose work
that is. Sure, but look, for example, in this case it
is one These gentlemen have integrated, they have created an artificial intelligence of their
own where they have uploaded all their drawings and with all their drawings have generated
new works of art. I, for example, am writing then one of
the things that is going to want to upload everything that I have written and
that helps me write a book, but I am not taking content from anyone.
It' s about my content that allows me to integrate everything. It
opens up a lot of questions to me. All this, all this.
If we focus on education, how has it been used and how is artificial
intelligence used in education? What benefits are we going to start with, good,
positive, why do we want to use artificial intelligence in education? That
the point is that it affects in many ways, because in the end this
kind of revolution, for me it is important to say that in education the
tool, by itself, does not lead to a better educational And we are
tired of seeing the examples. Okay, putting a textbook inside a laptop is
not a technological innovation. Using a digital pizza machine to screen a YouTube video
is not a technological innovation. And in education, for many years we have
been told that because technology was and was automatically going to be an improvement.
Now we are in these cycles that comment juanda, which are also given in
education. Now we' re going down and saying that all the technology is
bad and then we have to remove it. And neither can that be because
we live in a world that is digital. Not then the technology itself does
not make it possible. It is the task that the teacher does around that
tool, which makes sense and the world is not analogue or digital. The
world is digital and in school it has to coexist manipulative resources with certain moments
where technology enriches the educational process and does not replace it. That said,
there are certain revolutions that have a lot of social impact. It was the
Internet, and now artificial intelligence in education has been operating for a long time
in online education environments. I value these content recommendation systems. We worked years
ago in a system that evaluated exams and then compared the correction that teachers made
to see how much the tool was able to evaluate. Here we are talking
about complex issues, because in education there are no agreements on the concept of
what is intelligence, but neither on what is learning is worth, because learning
is not just taking a note in an exam. It' s a bit
more complex. So, in education it affects in three ways. I believe,
on the one hand, they highlight the need for literacy that we not
only have students, but all as a digital society. Terrible. Yeah,
why I say this is important. In the beginnings that Juan David commented there
were computer scientists already speaking as a role of the importance of literacy in computer
languages, not because everyone has to be engineers, but because they are to
me it is like a language. It is to literate in order to communicate
and to create, not only to consume technologies, but to create with technology,
to understand them. A basic citizen literacy and in that goes later the
integral educational system of computational thinking with ONLOE. But now there is a need
to train teachers so that, at the same time, they can train students
for literacy. On the other hand, it is true that these tools serve
a little as a co- pilot, because it makes you an image in
a short time a visual presentation. So there' s a part of it
that can make it easier for you if you use it well on certain administrative
issues and then there are didactic applications that can also be interesting for teaching English,
for teaching history. I' ve seen ideas with chatboots that are very
interesting. The problem is, as always as we are using it, because
I am finding myself educationally that GEPT is becoming a substitute for Google, of
course and that is a very big risk. That' s part of the
fact that you don' t understand how those models work, apart from that
they can hallucinate and all these things about inverted information in the passage into a
traditional search engine. You can see where the information comes from and you can,
in theory, have a critical ability to see if that information, because
it works better or worse in this type of tools. Although some tell you
the theory of where it comes from, we' ve done tests and it
' s not always true. So we' re already taking as certain things
that a model is telling us that training is very opaque, that for me
it' s important to say that for fifteen years now, the development potential
of artificial intelligence ceased to be in academia, in research institutions and so and
went into the realm of great technology, because they are the ones that have
our data and the technical ability to train those models for months. Another melon
is what they are in the end and they offer us some useful products that
we all use, but we have to be aware of what if that is
part of literacy and digital competition, which is not just teaching to make pot
poir our son, daughter, teach him to live in today' s world.
And another problem that I am finding in education that the other day my
partner, Linda Castañeda, commented on in a video and I have already seen
some scientific articles and it is very interesting to me, is that there are
teachers that we say is worth looking for information maybe it is not the best
way to use it. Let' s use it as that co- pilot
who gives me ideas. Not one of the most useful proms I see is
giving me ideas for okay. We are finding that if in students, in
people who have the creativity and thought of diversified developed. That way of working.
He can help you. Then you start from what the tool tells you
and build things, but in students or people who cost them badly don'
t have the ability to make decisions yet. The tool takes control of the
thought in the or project they have to do. Then the gap between those
who usually work well and those who cost them the most increases. Then there
is also that in the importance of the teacher deciding what task, when and
how I use it. And this, as always in the middle, is
virtue is neither excessive use nor prohibition. It' s training me first and
then once we' ve literate. If we understand what is behind it,
we make better decisions and understand why there are certain things, what we can
do and cannot do. And then, to finish this aspect, I think
the Internet meant the democratization of information is worth, but it generated new needs
in education. I explained myself doing the works with the Salvat Encyclopedia I had
at home. I don' t know if you' re older. We
all parted, even at a time when the places of the letter. That
was shared as if it were hacking. It matters to you, please,
that the Internet democratizes it ceases the information and we have the letter, but
we also have in the paco that the paco maybe was not as reliable as
the letter. They generate new needs for us at the educational level, because
we no longer have to literate students in something else that is learning to discern
the information that is critical, that is reliable, from which it is not.
And the education system, in fact, at the legislative level adapts.
It includes competencies, includes digital competition, something else, and then, if
it' s being done, but it includes all that artificial intelligence. In
a way, it does not ask us, that is, considering how these
models work, that most of the ones we are using here sound American,
that they have a concrete vision to see the world, that there are certain
expressions, that uses sha GEPT all the time that identifies immediately, that throws
you GPT, that when they squeeze it a little bit is creating you tell
it to make you a paella. If he doesn' t have rice,
he' ll do the paella anyway. So what I' m saying is
that we' re actually putting together tasks that could be these things that hang
on. Perhaps the problem is that we are I have to seriously rethink the
tasks we are asking for. Okay, but that' s a long time
ago, that we should have raised it in the education system, that is,
aid already existed. I have tutoring with my TFG thesis student, this
FM that I work at the University and it' s something and there'
s a poster that puts such a company we make you your TFG. Or
the cousin who came and helped you and also got my cousin wrong, but
the syntactic analysis was done to me by her because I was bad at it.
I always set an example for my cousin, the poor one, that
is, that that also existed. It' s true that it can'
t be at best totally comparable. But that thing about someone else doing the
job or delegating you that someone else already existed, then there' s the
key. It' s just that we have to rethink ourselves so that the
school is there. What role the school is going to play today, what
future jobs certain professions expect, and seriously rethink that school we live in,
because it has to change a lot, but it should have changed. In
two thousand and six competencies were already incorporated. We have to give the resources
space and time so that they can make those transformations. We live in a
pandemic. Now they have to be experts in digital competition. The computational thinking
is very complex and we are not doing it, we are putting it all
through the filter of the school that we know and we continue to validate models
of duties and mode and things that make no sense, because it is that
it is not either I will go back, it is to go back to
the classroom, where you are and where you can help him and where you
can see that they are creating, that they are composing, and that requires
a transformation that is not only of the teacher, it is structural, it
is of ratio, it is of time, because to work by competition and
the course that comes to me in eighty students to teachers, I a little
to work by competition, I will be able to do then that kind of
questions go further. It covers, no, but I really like it because
I ask a question, but my rapporteurs answer what they want. No,
but I' ve answered how it affects education, because I' ve asked
you how it benefits. But how it benefits. I' m quickly sorry
to stop if I' m already saying so. If not, I like
it a lot, because it' s an opportunity to reconduce the model of
education. All right, I like it, I like it. It'
s an opportunity for all of this, to bring them back. You'
ve won a round of applause and everything' s not, but I said
it because I can' t talk about how much profit without putting the whole
thing in it, because it makes clear I can tell the teacher helps to
make visual presentations, the student helps the duty is easier, but it'
s clear for a little bit a question. All that' s behind me,
forgive me muchoca. I love it because if that comes out to you
it' s because you what you mean is that and you can ask me
what you want me to say is this. I don' t have to
work on concentrating. No, no, no, don' t worry because
I' m selling to people what I want to sell to you. You
' re having hallucinations. Sister, it could be that way. I used
to take advantage of you eluding my question there to ask her directly, Juan,
what. In addition, you have in place and work precisely with applications
designed to help in education. Tell us, what you' re doing,
what those apps are, and how they help and benefit in education. Well,
I have to answer very precisely that there aren' t too many cres.
You worry. I' m not gonna take stitches off like Mariano.
Yeah, I do. I think there is a way to attack the problem
of how to teach artificial intelligence and besides, it is there patent for a
lot of time and one of the keys, the father of all this has
already mentioned it Maria Hermal a while ago that paper Samoul Papper, a mathematical
pedagogue educator, was working in the seventies eighty in the METH and was the
creator, therefore, of this that we call computational thought. Although I don
' t think he used any of his writing moments. He said that word,
he didn' t use it. Then others used him, but he
already laid the foundations, and not because he did not feed either, but
he was also working with Piaget, which is another of the great pedagogues of
the 20th century and the idea is very simple, not only with the intellig
intestificial, with all the technologies, even to things that can be considered a
technology. The idea he put forward was constructionism, which most people have certainly
heard of Piaget' s constructivism, but he changed a little. He changed
the term called constructionism. And what was coming simply suggests that when people do
something, even if it is some kind of toys, the process that deconstruction
gives so much learning, that is, it contributes so much. Learning leaves
such a mark on iron. They do not leave any mark on what good
they have needed to build that toy thing which is really a very valuable strategy
for learning. She' s not the only one, but she' s
very valuable. Then, he, in addition, was one of the drivers
and clairvoyants in the seventies, when there were still no computers in people'
s homes, and he was very clear that the computer could be a very
valuable tool for learning. But of course he also said that care not the
computer to absorb content, which he has also said very much, not to
consume, but to create. There' s the key. Then, he
saw that, by programming computers, students could learn many things, not just
computers, that is, learning to program to learn other things. And he
developed, not only developed all these ideas but also developed a promotional language.
It was the achievement that well, it didn' t have the success that
now has language like STRATSH, but it was the basis, which was the
basis of scratch. In fact, a successor Resnick has been what he has
created good, with a tremendous team of meat. He has created scrtch from
one of the programming languages that I have most of this is having and the
one that has made it possible for programming to really be introduced into school,
because it is based on an idea of blocks that it is very easy to
make programs, things that with the logo, because it was more complicated because
of issues of syntas, if obviously in those subjects. But the point is,
the idea is fundamental, the one that has to be clear about where
we have to decide. I believe and that you haven' t invented me,
of course, I wish, because otherwise, if I hadn' t
invented myself, as a serial, I' d be in the pedagogy olympus.
So it is due to payperies paper, forgiveness and is We will build
technology, even if it is toy, even if it is simple and it
is artificial intelligence, because what we do. Let' s builder also artificial
intelligence toy. You are not going to throw out PC, but toy for
what, to get to know the basics, just like we program simple things,
to know the fundamentals of the technologies that we usually use. And we
can face those technologies from a critical point of view, because we can'
t face anything critically and critically if we don' t know a little bit
what' s going on we can stalk her tandes of what we want.
We can be the brother- in- law of whatever we want. Well,
then we do very well, no, not very brother- in-
law, but good. Yeah, that' s what we' re looking
at. We' re all given. But it is true that you can
reduce that wedge level, joke field time, that we can deal much better
with CHAPT and its hallucinations when we understand why that technology hallucinates. And it
is very simple to clarify a little bit the term of hallucination with what means
that he writes things well, but that they are not true, they do
not have at best, because the term that is as more familiar in the
language had not only deducinación, but the sixth that there may be a given
moment constructions of phrase and texts, because they are in some way amplifying,
since elements like me that know xenophobia with questions of sex, maximum to thousands
of stories why this happens, because prog why they have done these yes,
then the base is in the data. Actually, if we get the students
to create artificial intelligence, let them be the ones who feed with artificial data
and intelligence, create it and then do a little program with them and see
how it fails, that this is a very important thing, not that they
see only that it is right, but that it fails and that they can
improve it by introducing more data and they see that they improve it as they
enter data, they realize that well, because the essence of all this is
in the data and that that is why the great technologies are so needed and
have become the owners of the data, because there is really their whole business.
And, well, then what do I try to do and I'
m on what I' m working on. But a tool that precisely does
that that in a very simple way, in ten minutes, even the teacher
can teach the students to do an artificial intelligence, because feeding them with data,
for example, with a quick example to be understood, we will build
an artificial intelligence that is able to recognize, since not pictorial styles or artists,
painters, and then we will take a lot of examples, of four
of picasso, others who gave twelve of monet other god twelve bangos of which
we want and classify them. We do a sorting job. The classification,
in fact, is one of the tasks that in education was most of all
teachers or teachers. We are all day doing qualifying activities in all subjects.
Moreover, this is not typical of computer science, but in all not.
So the student is going to enter that data, he' s going to
train artificial intelligence with that data, and he' s going to get an
artificial intelligence that he' s able to recognize, because mones' pictures I
pilico them before with other examples, with cats and dogs it' s worth
monics. That' s going to make him jealous, and then he'
s going to be able to even be good enough for you to get there.
Then you can do a program with Scrusch that uses that artificial intelligence that
you have achieved with all this has not only managed to understand the basics of
the AI so that later you face the applications, as type chaj PT and
others that something we will use. Without a doubt, we are going to
use everything, but at the very least that it presents itself, it faces
itself in a critical way. But he also gets something else, and it
is that if the teacher, for example, takes all these pictures and gives
them mixed and tells him to classify them. The student will have to do
the job of classifying them the same before giving it to the machine and then
motivated because he will build artificial intelligence. For whatever it is, because it
' s going to take a while, because it can be a good time
an hour half an hour you' re going to classify into a thing that
is usually pretty hard about the subject of the classification and so on, studying
any sort of classification. He always has a hard time. Very. There
' s a very clear word I' m not going to say because I
' m in a shithole. Ah you want then to have the illusion of
layering an intertiffial or whatever, for it does that task and when it has
taught the computer to classify, it has also taught itself to classify, then.
We' re not talking here about big artificial intelligence, Dali chapt type,
which general I don' t know what general I don' t know
how much. You could also one thing that I have in mind and I
would like to develop artificial intelligence of generative types by showing you texts. In
fact, there are already some colleagues who have done some pilots and they work
very well. You put in a lot of texts, for example, gift
of fables and when it gives you to generate text that is really crazy,
it' s a nonsense, but it has a little tone, the style
of what would be a fable. For example, James Monic, who is
the author of snaph for a programming language and after Jesus Moreno have done that
experiment and it works quite well, which is one thing I would like to
integrate. The tool that I' m developing, which is called sning ML
and that goes in this direction. In contr to build on artificial toy intelligence,
but build and then program a toy program yes, so that students really
do that because they have those fundamentals. After all, it is about acquiring
foundations through a construction process and that is really how I think the issue of
ia and virtually any technology should be worked out. And this is where I
was going, too, that was very clear to me. You' ve
answered ten points very well in banter. How we move this, both the
part of suspicion, of this we have to overcome and all the biases and
problems and that of which we will then talk a little bit more. And
the productive part, that is, the profitable part, how we use it
to families, because we are talking about this more academic sector, even from
the teachers, which is super important, because someone has to teach it,
but what happens at home. How we translate this vision and all these benefits
and, in turn, its challenges to the family that we are facing at
school are offering us programming, but we have no idea if we are doing
well. For the time we' re aiming at after school, it'
s very expensive. It' s very expensive. This one doesn' t
improve football that also better move. We don' t understand too much either.
I mean, it sounds pretty good to us, because it' s
going to be the future. No, but we don' t understand very
clearly how to help you, how we work with families on that. Now,
I think there are several points, there' s a part, but
there' s a very important pass and I' m going to give you
an example with something else. If we send our children to school with a
knife and a fork, we are calm because we know that they are going
to cut the steak and they are not going to nail it to the side,
because many times, when they are little, we teach them with the
forks that are careful. So this is something that we already have integrated,
because it takes a long time to educate. But with technology we don'
t. Why, because the next generation is always less afraid of the new
and proves it before. So what is the current situation that right now most
children are doing things with intelligence and artificial generative. Why, because they have
to do a job for alcohol doesn' t give them time and the friend
tells him to use that which you do. What happens if your son does
the job and you don' t find out, but it can also happen
to you that if you know what this is? Your son shows it to
you like it happened to me and you say. I can' t believe
your teacher realized that you didn' t do this. That' s an
interesting table for me. Sure, sure, then for me the first thing
families should ask and it' s one of the things I' ve put
in the family observatory, uh, what' s going on in your house.
First ask your children if they know what artificial intelligence is, if they
know what generational artificial intelligence is. You' re using chat shept for what
you' re using it for. Show me, I mean, because I
think we' ve been through this before, too. With this the development
of computational thought has been trying to work for a long time but families do
not know what computational thought is. And computational thinking is I have to solve
one thing. How this I do not prepare, and then, all technologies
what they do is part. I mean, that thought helps you to a
very complex problem, reduce it in small steps and go solving the little things.
So, as they well explained, that computational thinking helps us for everything.
I mean, it' s not just for technology. It helps us
for life. And we' re not developing that well in school, not
in any way. So I think at home, even if it costs us
because we' re not always in a technological field. I have always been
in a technological field and my children have been brought technology soon, but from
a sense of good use, not misuse. But we have to understand that
if we give it to each other, it will teach you how to use
it and it will teach you with misuse. So I think that by many
laws that we want to put in, the laws allow to regulate the bad
uses, but the good uses give them to habit, they give them the
custom, they give them the education and the families have to start first to
have a little critical thinking and to the first news that comes out of removing
a device, not to say it is already closed or such not. I
mean, let' s see this because it' s good and because it
' s bad. That is, when now, for example, we say
it is not that we are going to doctors are going to ask if children
spend how much time children spend on their phones, because it is not the
same that a child spends an hour watching tiktok, that it does not work
for a child or for us as adults. It' s not good for
any of us to watch an animal documentary or to be programming with junior scrut.
It' s got nothing to do with it. But we are not
looking for simple solutions to complex problems. And so that requires informing, understanding,
literacy of the whole population, because we are citizens of a digital age.
And then we need to use things ethically and we need to know how
we can create them ethically. Before we came in here and talked about me
and Mario, when we said that we are using artificial intelligences that come from
the United States, which have different values than Europeans. If we want to
have artificial European intelligence, we have to have European children who develop artificial official
intelligences with the level of security we want in Europe. But we don'
t have people ready for that now, because we don' t have people
we' re preparing from schools. So the look of families has to be
from understanding, that we don' t have all the answers, that here
we have many questions and that we have them all up to those who are
in the day to day, but that we have to cover our eyes,
what we do many times to solve a problem, that is, I don
' t have this out. It' s not that it' s,
it' s that we can' t hide our heads like the ostrup is
that our children are using it. It' s just that you have to
talk to them, it' s just that you have to see how they
do their homework, that they show it to you, and then you make
him see how this works. And I think this we have to do as
families and it' s something we need to do from the faculty and I
have the example of a close friend who, despite hearing me all year talk
about this, already in the last week that has had the opportunity to have
a more relaxed course, has started to talk to guys about this. They
have already begun to explore it among everything, and the students themselves realize the
biases and the studies themselves before realized that artificial intelligence hallucinates, of course,
hallucinates because it is a probabilities machine. It' s not a truth machine.
It is true that we bring many new concepts, but we must begin
to understand these concepts. Yeah, anyways to add one thing so that you
had to answer it with a question, but we' re going to chase
her and me all the time program. I think that being true that there
is a demand for literacy that is not just for young people, who are
citizens, we talked about it before. Monica and I, who am a
pedagogue, remember those pedagogical missions of the Second Republic that were to be literate
to all points of Spain. I think that the municipalities, the associations of
neighbors, of women, that is, there should be one, a digital
media literacy to teach us to live in this world to have more, to
know, to better exercise our rights and duties as digital citizens, not to
be programmers or anything of that that you hear, because if it comes out,
then honest, but that on the one hand, but regardless of that,
all that technical part that families are afraid of. I think there is
another aspect that, as a family and as an adult, we do have
to, for example, talk to our children when they go out. Right
now, there' s a lot of news related to the social impact of
artificial intelligence, the whole deep fake, that there are comrades who change the
face of their companions and harass the issue of the IRIS scab, that is,
we' re banning young people from mobile phones and then they come out
and they' re going to scan their way to the mall. There'
s something missing and it' s not technological. It' s educational.
Educational and you can, you can sit down with your son and check in
and say look. These are biometric data of particular sensitivity, precisely in European
artificial intelligence law. This is gonna make him my son, don' t
squeal at you. I mean, the world is changing so much. Of
course, the world is changing so much that they used to tell you,
because be careful at the door of high school, don' t go away
with anyone Mine isn' t going to scan you liris. It seems like
a peak, but the world that we have had to live in I think
that going back, which makes no sense, because we are the adult examples
of how non- literacy leads us to make bad decisions. Then once we
have as far as we can get. There are many apps on the Internet
and many repositories that can serve as a guide to small programs that a smart
car is driving. You have to make decisions. What a decision I'
d make. There are many things that can be talked about and that,
like you, when you throw, you take your son, your daughter to
the park on the first day and do it by the hand, because if
you don' t get your lawyer in the head, because in the digital
world you also ask us to do that. But that' s again because
I, my vindictive role, have to get it out. He questions many
things, because how do you accompany your child, if you can' t
reconcile, if you can' t train, if there are no social mechanisms
that allow you that when your child is with each other maybe you can sit
down and make the best decisions. Then there is one part that is the
family' s own interest in doing it right. But this whole world that
is being configured calls into question the very intrinsic dynamics of society. And I
also think that the family environment needs to be very different from the school environment.
I think that we are also sometimes carrying the school of responsibilities and issues
that are ours and that, instead of going together for whatever it is,
a panorama has been created in which we attack each other and sometimes those that
we are in both places it seems that you even have to unfold your personality
and sometimes defend the family and then other times defend the school and I think
it is because they are not giving us solutions from above and it answers you
wonderfully. He' s going to do something else supernally. I take advantage
of it because the last show didn' t even give us time to public
questions. And if you have questions, take advantage of raising your hand,
because here and you see already seen as man our guests, as they put
you to speak, give us time. So over there we have a question
and we can take advantage of it over there, over there, yeah,
oh they already have micro yes, no, yeah, hi. First,
thank you very much, a great debate. And there is one thing that,
speaking with friends in a context of artificial educational intelligence, we begin to
think of a context that I have moved in recent years, which is co
- creation with people And if we put here the artificial intelligence that you were
also proposing to create, create, but the term co- create makes us
approach validating the result, because we are co- responsible from that hand to
hand with artificial intelligence. I give an example that I believe that those who
have not had that I am no expert an approach to artificial intelligence helps to
understand, without touching it, not without entering and creating a user in chajept
or in other artificial intelligence tools. Last year I was delivering papers on a
master' s degree in anthropology and asked him for a summary of why,
because I needed time to make a delivery. The summary played very well.
I asked him again half the same thing. The same result, i e
it is easily caught. It is not a relevant result many times, but
it occurred to me to ask and test me the key questions of a text
and flip and, in that context of co- creation, to get involved
with the tool and learn from it, because I think the educational model has
been based a lot and this talked about workshops where sculptors like Michelangelo have based
on copying to learn, and I think we can now rely on creation to
learn co- creation. I don' t know I' ll leave it
there. If you want to comment I think that really these tools of generatives
that are coming out, especially those of language generation, are very powerful as
companions. As a companion to enhance thought and it has extraordinary power, but
it has the same extraordinary power to overturn your thought. They' re just
as effective for one thing as they are for another. And well, what
' s it going to be based on that in one case of power and
in another case cancel because it' s obviously clearer than water in use.
A person who is committed to the study, who is completed with his work,
who is committed to teaching to learn, will use HAGPT and take it,
will help you a lot, generate new ideas, will give you new
ideas, truth from time to time give new ideas. Because you' ve
read a lot of chag sts, you' ve read half of the Internet.
So he' s got a lot going on there in his databases that
are going to bloom and that don' t occur to you and he'
s going to direct you you' re critical and he says bu this to
me it seems a little weird. I' m asking you here about how
to improve chess and you tell me to read me the art of war in
Sun Tzu' s chess. Here this can be you. I' m
saying something I' ve done once this book happened to me. It doesn
' t exist. It didn' t exist. Then, a clear one
begins to seek information. They say it doesn' t exist. But that
' s not why the tool is bad, because it helped me. I
found a lot of things, but I, and like many of those here,
have been studying for a long time. We know where we' re
going. We have not acquired that critical capacity. We have already acquired,
therefore, that constancy, those dynamics of study. And then this isn'
t going to help much. Now what happens when we' re talking about
a boy or a girl who' s still in that one in that learns,
that dynamic that you' re also going to learn overnight, maybe,
you get to college and still learn us at all. What use does this
make, the use of answering me that I want to play and I'
m not going to get to see if this thing that' s here is
true, if not true, I copy it. Good bymefriend then of course
have that to which you can get an annulment of the total thought, because
it is that you will not think a bit. That is why I say
that the same tool that can greatly enhance our learning can override you. Then
of course, what you' re saying is absolutely right for me. It
' s just that he' s a great partner. But what about the
other part of the knife also adds that it is not just a thing of
age and work in the scientific field, that is, in the sense that
I am correcting adult jobs. I am a reviewer of scientific journals and I
am receiving documentation and I say because you can' t prove it from all
the most plagiarism detectors that I think one of the keys also that I have
had so many scares is that at the level of higher education, for example,
we have plagiarism detection programs where you could To start with, most students
don' t want to copy, they just don' t know how to
quote and they have managed the information well worth and when you find copy is
an opportunity to teach you to quote the information well. But in some case
where he' s still there' s been that evil of saying if any
work you could come up against the student with his copy. Here' s
so much access to what this gepet told you at the time. Although the
conversations can be sent is more complicated. In most plagiarism programs are already trained
so that of this pattern is writing GPT and other models. I hate it
more because there is bibliographical reference invented by certain sentences subordinated by the Is crucial.
It is crucial, which is a very direct translation of English. That
problem is not just a problem of children, that is, when we want
to do a quick task in the world in which we live, we want
the productive one and we do not believe we are reading. A lot of
people are copying and pasting the GPT. So here comes a new player that
comes into play in ethics, that shouldn' t be new, but that
has to be and that all that critical thinking and that is no longer just
with artificial intelligence, is part of developing clear critical and responsible citizenship and reflecting
on learning. Of course, that point was on me Maybe it' s
clear. We have focused on education. We have to have this result.
We all have to have this result. And now the important thing is the
teacher. Of course, that' s then I' m seeing it inside
the observatory team, all the teachers who run the teaching area and the school
management area. How they are accompanying the kids in that process and what is
valued is not the result it gives the person. What' s appreciated is
that that guy made three four interactions with the machine and how those interactions are.
If it helps you find much better results. If that' s what
you' re thinking about, then I think this is really about taking on
a challenge that education has, that we have an education that works a way
and measures a way. And then the kids who want to pass, they
don' t want to develop their profession of the future, they don'
t want to be an ethical citizen. They don' t want to play.
Then, of course, it has a tool that helps them make everything
much faster. They are thinking about how they can be more efficient, but
these tools help to be more efficient or to generate new things that you couldn
' t do with other tools before, so what we have to use is
health. I think what we have to do is transform systems, because what
you say is happening in companies, too. Now we see that certain profiles
are beginning to be seen. The other one already told me one person and
says listen maybe to the person who asked him to do the website to me
takes five minutes each time he does more. Uncle yes and if I can
do it I do because of course I teach you or it is clear that
this is going to change many ways to do things and education, because it
will have to transform how the rest of the states are actually transforming, into
education is to comply with what we have written in the law, which is
more important the process than the product. What it puts into question is not
just education, that is, the process of making a doctoral thesis, of
investigating where the report counts. I mean, you' re now going to
have to see how that knowledge is being built, how it' s interacting,
how it' s learning on the go, because the product is no
longer the most important thing and that' s a change that involves many things
that we' re not knowing, see, that involves many conditions and following
the thought process. I mean, you ask your student what the tool told
you, how you checked that information was true, how you make decisions.
It was conditioned by the tool and to me came a moment Students tell me
I prefer not to use the reward intelligence because so I have to work more?
Well, that' s if I have to work more. They tell
me a lot of things, because maybe that' s how we have to
approach it. But of course, that is very complex and has to go
little by little and we have to be patient also with an educational system that,
by definition, is resistant to change and does not differ so much from
the educational system that we live. In fact, I' m sorry about
what you said. Loving me has surprised me because I coincided with a group
of college students who evaluate each other and then stopped using chagpt because everyone knew
when someone else had used it as they began to read it and said to
you you don' t talk. So if you don' t use those
words if the 20- year- olds themselves know perfectly well that in the
laubus a chap GPP and the parents don' t know and the teachers don
' t know, I don' t know. I think that is a
reflection that we should all take. No yes, especially because when we use
it well, in what you say Juan David, it is that I am
more productive, but nothing is integral. But I' ll be wrong because
we' re not perfect. But I try to make a proper productive use
and then you get those little tricks that you have and I have helped to
be very productive. A lot of things that I used to ask colleagues give
original stockings for titles of I don' t know what they asked the tool,
to mechanical tasks of summarizing the extraction of certain information, to upload a
pdf and take out my information because you dominate the subject, because you know
how to use it. But of course, to get there you have to
go through some previous steps that may not help you to complete those previous steps.
Of course it is the problem that I see, of course I'
m probably wrong and hopefully I' m wrong that I don' t see
the way to use, that is, GPT in education, especially primary and
secondary college, so that it really helps the student to take that discipline of
study. That' s the problem, so there' s the same thing.
If there is, of course there must be a lot of vigilance on
the part of the teacher, which is difficult because to see how we do
it has twenty- two students in class and so on, how we incorporate
this, especially in the older ages. But I think we have to distinguish
between artificial intelligence and artificial generative intelligence. That' s right. I think
we should start, for example. From my point of view, I think
we should start educating on artificial intelligence ethics. I mean, we see him
we' re going to make our kids see that it' s not the
same as a person a robot has already said the mit where he is.
He says a long time. I mean, we have to understand that we
' re going to relate in a world where there are as many machines or
more like people. So you, when you talk to Siri, we know
it' s a machine, but our children think it' s a person.
No. Then that kind of concept. I think you have to move
them since they' re small and there' s a chance to move them
and that there are prophemite tools you have a course to teach this kind of
thing. And then it' s true what you say that if we give
generational artificial intelligence tools that they believe, that they believe the summary, that
they believe the duties that they do that. That is what UNESCO itself is
recommending, not before the age of fourteen, to ensure that the children have
generated that thought of learning to seek solutions. Anyway, I think we have
to forgive a little note comes out in my bena pedagogue. You have to
differentiate a lot what the type of task is, that is, it'
s not the same you use an intelligence to design something that you then apply
to students, but ludicants aren' t even aware that there' s an
artificial intelligence where the range of decisions there is to control the echoes, the
truthfulness of the information, the whole ethical part. I have seen examples in
early childhood education of tools that are safe, because right now there is a
boom of tools that is crazy, tools that are safe, that did not
require records, where, perhaps the children are giving Kandinsky. The children make
drawings on the digital board and then transform his drawing into a Kandinsky four.
Then, they analyze the style that has passed, then they draw it by
hand. That is to say, obviously, we are not talking about that,
in fact, Chagept is not recommended for children under the age of twelve
and what you are commenting on is not teaching you this so that you then
do your homework on your own. But within the framework of didactic strategies,
within a lot of decisions that you have to make both didactic and ethical care
with data, etc, I think there are possibilities if the didactic task is
well posed. Now what can' t be are some actions that, surely
out of unconsciousness, are being seen from I' m going to take a
picture of my children and we' re going to see how they age and
we' re surely giving an image of a minor who can be used for
training. That' s different from the activity I just mentioned. Then it
is very clear how you can use it either as a teacher or as you
can. I mean, I don' t think we need to use artificial
generative intelligence in childhood and primary, either. I think it must obviously be
used after a lot of things, but there is a catalogue of tools that
can help if they are well worked out. What happens that right now they
really are sure that such there are very few, because most of them want
you to register, because they want you to go giving data. But there
are some options and I want to recommend a report that has taken out the
inteft that I find very interesting, that makes a catalog of recommendations of tools
around the property of the management, that makes the data and then establishes what
it is called out of green, yellow and red colors. Still, there
are always those terms and conditions that we never read, because starting to look
at them and with that light of colors is telling you at the teacher level
and at the student level, a little bit is guiding you because this tool
turns out to be that you require records and the data are going to be
used for future training. So, well, you use them if you want
to make a visual presentation. But don' t ask students for each visual
presentation with her, because we have to start incorporating all this at the teaching
level, which hasn' t been done. Moreover, that this is not
new, I also want to say that the political decisions of the Council throughout
Spain have led to the loss of the models of free software and to go
to these great technologies in the region of Murcia. My children are on clarun
i e that of course we have to have this ethical part. I believe
that this literacy gives us the prospect of fighting for our rights as well.
But it is that for a few years now, because in the 1990s we
had a lot of free software experiences in autonomous communities and they have been lost.
So we melons importantly free software. No, yes, it' s
very important. In fact, it' s very important, because in the
end we all use these tools. But we all use these tools because it
' s the most powerful thing and because you can' t live behind their
backs either. But let' s see if it' s an inconsistency because
you' re fighting for another kind of tools. But for me it'
s important to say that I' m here going crazy as a mother to
see or as a teacher. When I recommend, I design future early childhood
education teachers. I always start from pedagogy, but at some point the part
of recommending some tool has to come in. So I recommend David' s
and then and then I say come and now that and then I say but
it' s because we' ve lost and then they go to Google.
Of course it is not that Google is good or bad either in the sense
that in the end it is what it is that we live in this panorama,
also after what has said way of the sea, is that I feel
the need to say it. You know, maybe it' s not Opensours
- free artificial software intelligence. It is generated from creative common of license that
allow to copy, modify, publish, with reference to the original authors and
that are of vital revolutionary importance in the world of education, absolutely revolutionary.
Quickly so revolutionary are that it has allowed me in my free time and when
I have been able, because I have developed an application that is completely based
on open sous, that is, all the libraries that you have used are
open sous are open source libraries. And what' s more, there'
s a part of the application where you' re actually, as you usually
say, working on giant shoulder, which is Scrutch, that is, the
source code, which is the code let' s say you have to type
in to build the program, because Scratch, which is right now the most
powerful programming language to introduce early programming. This has been developed by the METH.
Actually, the Thousand Foundation where I lay in the world. There'
s a lot of people and millions of dollars really and they' ve decided
to publish that more open source. And what does that mean, because I,
for example, without obviously having the billions that are required to make a
tool like that, have been able to take that tool, add four or
five, six, ten blocks that I need to use the technical intelligence that
is built with the other part of the tool. And I' m using
SCRATCHS on a server of my own, not on the original scratch server,
and I' m not doing anything illegal. No one' s coming here
to ask me to account, no one' s gonna tell me I'
m a pirate and no one' s keeping tros naters and no one'
s keeping my data. Indeed, and well, why I have been able
to do this part of the tool, which, moreover, is a part
that gives it a lot of value. The tool has two parts, once
it builds artificial intelligence and another of which it can be used to build a
program. And that part is a programming editor that is modified scracks, because
the code is free, otherwise it' s impossible for any person to do
that. That' s millions of dollars invested in that project. And then,
here, in Spain, in general in the world, when we are
talking about developing tools not only educational, but any kind of tools that are
paid for with public money is almost not dropped by its own weight that the
result would be published open. Because if public money, then the result,
the code has to be opened. And the same is true for reports,
for theses, for all documents, for books that can be generated with public
money, that they may have a license of this kind that allows to modify
what is already done. For example, there is a very important concept of
open educational resources. It' s exactly the same thing I' ve had
with the software, but in an educational resource, because I may have to
know video, images, texts and so on. If you publish it open
with a common creats license, you' re allowing other teachers not to leave
from scratch, but to use what' s already done. That lot of
hours he' s had to throw out. I' ve done another a
lot of hours and the best, there adapts it to your thing. It
' s a revolutionary idea. From the administrations this is being promoted a little
bit. We' ve been talking for fifteen twenty years There weren' t
five of us talking about Creatis Commons, a lot of yora, all of
a sudden it' s no good. You have to generate everything, when
of course generating images is very cool and I if the first one that incorporates
it to my visual presentations. But we' ve been talking about Crady Common
licenses for 15 years. I' m going to those repositories because there'
s also an educational part that you have to work on a professional level and
this other melon people a feeling that they' re leaving exactly. I have
the feeling because it' s an idea that in education. Sure, obviously,
there was a lot of that' s a philosophy of the world.
The world is digital, it can be built from many perspectives and the people
of the free software movement have a vision of social justice of the digital world
that is very interesting and that in the world that we live, because it
is being lost because it does not fit, it does not fit with the
current moment that we have, but that it is important to know that it
is there, that there is still resistance, there is still that gives some
small autonomous communities that keep on their free software platforms. But in the end,
political decisions have changed, because who now offers you the technological capacity to
sustain, because all the framework we have now that we need, in fact,
in the pandemic. It was a critical moment and many of the remaining
free software projects died in the pandemic because a lot of technological capacity was needed
to enable the system to survive. And thanks to this company in the system
it has been able to survive. But in the end these decisions also have
consequences that, as a society, it is important that we address. And
all this is part of digital literacy and digital competition. I wanted to remind
me what you' re saying wrong is that we' re defining new digital
values without giving us the nerve then what I care about privacy or I care
about diffusion. And this is a decision we make every day when we upload
a photo on a social network. For me, is this what the family
has to do, that is, the family? He doesn' t have
to be the master of technology, he has to be the master of the
values you use for the physical world, but also for the virtual, that
is, the family. He has to talk about security, he has to
talk about respect, not right now We said before that language is one of
the best tools that human beings have developed, but language is generating the hate
speech that we have right now. In other words, language can be used
well to communicate as it is now to dialogue, or or we can use
it to generate wars. Everything we do has some behaviors and has some values
below, and I have often set an example, and is that, when
the video came out, my mother didn' t know how to put the
video? I didn' t know I put it on my net brother my
brother put it on, but I put on the video and my mother watched
and said this movie isn' t for you and made us take it off.
But my mother never knew how to handle the team. He never knew
the technology, but he did know what was good for us and what was
coming for us and what was coming for us. And what I think is
that right now, as a family, we have to enter our children'
s room, or we have to have our children in our rooms and see
how they interact with technology and about that generate many conversations and there will be
things that we know and that our children tell us and also in that sense,
have an open look. It can' t be that, as I
did one thing to you, it' s good, let' s see,
let' s think about this, you talk to friends of yours and
you' re talking and it informs you and, indeed, learn from places
where you can learn a little bit, that it' s a little bit
also the objective that we have in observatory, that people have content there,
but adapted contents and that you can start from something very basic, because here
we are sure that the three of us are taking some word that we understand
each other, but that one of you, because we have lost with the
clear is that we each have some knowledge and we have a background and with
that baggage we are building our knowledge. And it may be that you,
in order to start getting into this, you have to start with something very
simple that will explain very simply how are the things that answered them to you
that encourage you to contextualize them with things that you already know so that,
for example, as I use you, analogies like that very simple, are
very simple. But I really think the needs we have now have happened to
us with other tools things with the car. I remember when I was little
and we go in the car children sitting in any way asleep on the trays.
And right now we have a chair for children from zero to nine months
from nine. I' m making it up because I' m no older
than my kids, but we have a specific chair for every age the child
and we know that from the age of twelve they no longer need those chairs.
No, well, I think that' s the big challenge we have
in education. Not where we get in, where we put artificial generational intelligence,
because we' re protecting them, like we do with the chair in
the cars. Not in any way. What is the time to put it
in and not limit the critical thinking, the creative thinking of children. And
that' s the challenge we have. And I was also thinking we have
a few minutes left that I say if you want to ask him one last
question. You have a few minutilos. Ah look, just take advantage of
it, hey. Yeah, yeah, well, I' m loving it.
Thank you so much. You' ve talked a lot about the education
part. I loved that part of the constructivism of how. I don'
t know if the word said it right, but how you learn the process
and what I' d like to ask you is how we adults do to
learn that. I mean, don' t recommend it. For starters,
ask what we have to do. Well, I recommend entering the in INTEFT,
which, although it has a very dedicated part to teachers, there are
many nanomoks, has many courses that ultimately start from a literacy also basic,
because the teachers, in the end we do not stop being all parent mothers
and one will be doctor in such and others were teachers. So there'
s a lot of resources in the interfe. Then, I recommend the Spanish
Paediatric Association. It has recommendations for families around ages, for using finished slides.
It has contracts for the subject of the first mobile when, how,
under what criteria and such the influence that it is an organism p in which
there is a lot of information, they address many areas from the thing through
networks, the fake news, etcetera. And then, then, it may
sound silly. But in this world of social networks that seems so harmful and
that Twitter right now is afraid to put its foot in because it has twenty
people telling you everything, because following profiles like these professionals. I have learned
a lot because they see many parents who tell their experiences of how, for
example, they have used tools like Chabot type, like GPT to generate a
story, to go to sleep, because it seems to me a very funny
idea, that is, well let' s build a story. I'
ve read you twenty times the same story, let' s believe something and
this has created it a tool and give several ideas to the best of how
usefully it is and then, of course, use the MINML application that seems
silly, but it' s a very good application. There are many videos
that he sets as an example and identification of when you' re happy,
when you' re sad. There is debate as a machine can or can
not identify a feeling for a facial recognition, that is, make a small
effort to train ourselves and then, in a way trapressar, accompany them and
not be afraid that they know more on a technical level. Okay, yeah,
our kids, not us. I have many years of professional life left.
I would like to know how all these spaces are very good places to
learn and then enter us as adults and spend that time trying out the tool
and seeing it do and creating it. I at this moment, right now,
I' m creating a course for that, for me it' s
that question that you have been thinking about for several months, six months or
so, and I' m riding a very basic course. And also,
inside the observatory, inside the family area. I have thought of it as
being videos of ten fifteen minutes that you, instead of spending fifteen minutes,
lost in instagram or in tiktok you learn little by little, but from a
very low level, that is, without touching the computer you go to a
course of a lot of things without touching the computer, because I what is
transferred to you are concepts, concepts and that you go hooking up the ideas.
And I think that' s what we' re missing, because then
contained. As it tells you more, I think there are a lot of
contents, but they are on a very high level. And one of the
things I' ve done has been to give courses in digital literacy, of
the digital competition that we' re teaching to adult children. And this they
were doing in the last two years as women and also with refugee or Ukrainian
collective. And of course, when we think about adults, we think we
all have the level of competence that we have. But I, in my
classes, had people that an older gentleman, who had fingers that couldn'
t even put them on my keyboard and people that I knew had never touched
a keyboard. So how do we literate in artificial intelligence people who are not
even literate for a digital world and we have to generate different discourses, different
contents, simpler ones. I' ve set myself that target. I don
' t know how simple it is. Monica will have in the podcast resources.
I' ll give you a link so you can try it out and
take a look and all the comments you send me great. This week they
were telling me to see if it' s important. They told me that
in Finland and this you can look for it, also he Linkomónica. In
Finland, such a course has been designed for all citizens to take an open
course and has been translated into all languages, including Spanish. I don'
t have time to see him, because he recommended it to me last week.
But it is true that this type of artificial intelligence literacy resources have to
begin to appear for the whole city, because this week I saw this exhibition
of generative artistic intelligence with retired people, who came here into space, see
it and I is that it is a quantum leap, is that it does
not have some basic concepts to understand what is being explained to them in that
regard. There are foundations and there are several initiatives that are training families.
As Monica commented, even we, as a research group, have had a
very good experience of doing it that has the face to say be more high
- pitched, how not asked. Book has made a mock for family.
Then, for example, we, with foundations and other companies, have also
done even for seniors who a priori you could say hear what they want,
because it is fascinating. It is a super experience in which you can see
just how they have a very clear ethical perspective and once you have surrounded that
more technical language. You' re realizing that you' re helping them participate
in closing that digital divide that in phone foundation. I worked here for two
years and there are many activities that are aimed at reducing the digital divide,
both in children and in adults, and there are activities where you can also
participate. Like the workshops that have taken the children, there are also workshops
for us, in addition, aimed at families that try to have that approach
in the concrete face. They' re courses from those families. I play
them in following Yes, it' s true that artificial intelligence specifics that I
' ve been monitoring for a long time. There are still very little specifics
of artificial intelgy, but it is true that social networks are artificial intelligence that
we have been using for a long time. Video games have been using it
for a long time and about that, everywhere he' s told you the
most. They' ve got a lot of incible information, you' ve
got jammed up, you' ve got a lot of associations that hinder.
The Oran Foundation also has, I mean, you have a lot of places
where you can be a repository. And what I' m going to tell
her, don' t all worry. We' ll leave all the resources
in the program notes and friends, we have to leave some interesting talk.
I really had a script, but I answered nothing. The same is true
for several more programs. I love it. I' ve learned a lot
about the record. I think that we take concepts and, above all,
I want to end up claiming a lot of that which we are talking about
now in the end, that we take these concepts as our own, because
if we don' t make these concepts something our own and something ours and
that corresponds to us we have the age we have or the knowledge and context
we have, it won' t affect us so much that those digital rights
take them away from us. We are not going to feel like a loss
of something of ours when it is suddenly primatized and we do not have all
the same rights to access these services or our programs. You just want it
in the monic loss, you also stay in the loss of opportunity. Of
course the one we talked about in pandemics, in pandemics, the group that
passed the pandemic worst, because I was here in foundation working for many foundations,
were the people who didn' t have a digital device and, for
example, the food banks where people were going to look for clear food were
closed and they set up websites to order food. But there were many people
who clearly had to search the Internet. That' s exactly why so it
' s accessible, so that everyone, that they' re open, that
they' re all open? Let us think that with our sons, our
daughters, those values, that ethics, discovering those biases, all these risks
that exist, because there are people behind them and we have to know how
to identify them and fight because this technology is something that responds to us as
human beings, that defends us in the end and that benefits us. So
I keep that claim that seems to me very productive in the end to take
us home, as I' m going to learn an artificial intelligence to make
a better world than this is what I like to finish the spaces mothering so
with taking some homework home and, above all, thank you all, my
wonderful speakers. Thank you so much for your work and for bringing it closer
and for making it our own that affects us all. Let us, as
I said, have children, have no children, whether we are professed or
not to live where we live and have the prior knowledge we have. Thank
you so much for joining us in a mother- sphere space. We will
return after the summer with new motherspace spaces and new themes and challenges and nothing
that we will hear in the podcast and thanks to the streaming as well.
Thank you very much Thank you until tomorrow morning.