WEBVTT 1 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:44.920 Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I am your host, 2 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:51.719 Alejandro Rojas, and I have with me mister Martin super duper Willis. Oh 3 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:55.840 I think you called me that before. Oh yeah, several times, because 4 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:59.960 it's true. You're just out there doing it, you know, keeping busy 5 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:04.719 doing some amazing stuff. Well, thank you. Yes, busy guy, 6 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.439 Yes, you are a busy guy yourself. I am a lot and all 7 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:14.159 that, all over the place and living the life as they say, that's 8 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:19.239 right. I'm super excited. By the way. For today's interview, it's 9 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:23.400 Nick Pope And that was kind of funny because you know, he had gotten 10 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:30.920 these documents about a tip and everything, and you were like, hey, 11 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:33.719 you should get Nick, and I was like, already scheduled. So we're 12 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:38.719 just showing how we think alike. But yes, So it is great because 13 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:45.560 he clarifies about these documents he got from the government because of FOYA, but 14 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:51.319 not through FOYA, And we'll have him explain that because the people who actually 15 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:56.719 foid it were the Federation of American Scientists. But we'll go through all of 16 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:04.200 that and what is important about these documents and how they once again you know, 17 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:10.280 support officially, what Louel Azando has been saying about the program he work 18 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:15.520 with. Now, the media in mainstream has not had really any doubts, 19 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:23.759 it doesn't seem, but certain UFO researchers do, which is weird in my 20 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.319 humble opinion. I just think it's and we talk about this about how weird 21 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:34.080 kind of the UFO research community's reaction has been to all of this. I 22 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:39.000 think our offline conversations are probably more interesting about it, but our online ones 23 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.360 are maybe more colorful. Our online ones are still very interesting, I think, 24 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:49.960 and insightful. Nick always is hm, well, that's great, looking 25 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:57.000 forward to listening to that that those documents are pretty interesting, sure for sure. 26 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.319 So before we get to the show though, of course, we have 27 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:06.000 you on to talk about UFO news and what bit of news would you like 28 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.159 to talk about? First? My friend, Well, I grabbed this from 29 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:15.520 on a link from the open Minds dot tv. That's a greabsite great way, 30 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.520 yeah, beautiful wow, And it's an article from Sciencenews dot org. 31 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.800 And the title to this is it's time to start thinking the search for ET 32 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:32.840 seriously, astronomers say, and some scientists are pushing for NASA to make looking 33 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:39.639 for alien technology an official goal. So this Astronomers in particular that it's pushing 34 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:44.400 this. His name is Jason Wright. He's been around not that long, 35 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:49.759 only since twenty fourteen, and he's determined to make something happen with this. 36 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:55.479 He set up a little, a little mini meeting at the American Astronomical Society 37 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.479 in January. He had a little time in the room and he got some 38 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:06.919 people together and out to plot a course into putting the scientific field known as 39 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:12.639 SETI on NASA's agenda. That's what he's looking to do. And so they're 40 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:18.399 writing a series of papers arguing that scientists should be searching universe for techno signatures, 41 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:26.600 and that's any sign of alien technology, from radio signals to waste heat. 42 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.360 Now, I didn't realize they search for more than just radio signals, 43 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.519 and that that makes a lot more sense to me, because you know, 44 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:38.959 searching for other signs of life. You know, you and I have had 45 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:43.800 that discussion before. Whether you know radio waves is something that would even be 46 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:48.319 used by another intelligent technology. We have no idea, no idea they could 47 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:56.160 be using whatever things we don't even understand. So and well, as a 48 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:00.839 lot of people know, NASA started in NASA started funding SETI of the SETI 49 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:04.199 program in nineteen ninety two, and it didn't even last a year because it 50 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:12.600 was canceled by skepticism in Congress. So private organizations picked up the baton, 51 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.879 including the SETI Institute, founded in Mountain View, California, nineteen eighty five 52 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:25.199 by Jill astronomer Jill Totter. Also in twenty fifteen, the Russian Billionaires Jury 53 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:32.839 and Yulia Milner launched breakthrough initiatives to join the hunt for et with those little 54 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:40.680 I'm trying to remember what their solared solar kites, little miniature things. There're 55 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.199 yeah, little solar what did they call them? Solar sale That's what it 56 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.199 is. Yeah, and little tiny things. Well, anyway, the thing 57 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.480 that you know, I kind of stood out to me, this says in 58 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.680 the last five This article goes on to say in the last five years, 59 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:00.600 scientist's attitudes towards the search for intelligent life have been changed. It's good to 60 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:06.839 hear Wrights says. SETI used used to have a giggle factor. Raising images 61 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:13.959 of little green men and talking about SETI work as an astronomer was considered taboo, 62 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:18.759 if not for academics. Suicide can you imagine that now not so much? 63 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:25.199 And he is quoted here, I have the pop sociology theory that the 64 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:30.160 assertion of geek culture has something to do with it. I think that's pretty 65 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:35.680 funny. Wright says, Now it's like all the top movies are going to 66 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:44.800 comic books and science fiction. He ends this this article in astro astrobiology and 67 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:50.240 the search for life has become such a big part of what NASA does the 68 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:58.399 fact that it won't look for intelligent life has become ever more incongruous with its 69 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:02.800 other activities. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think there's a misconception that, 70 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:09.879 you know, the SETI Institute, who did Jill Tarter represents and Sash 71 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:15.759 Shastak who listened for radio signals, that that is SETI and that's all they 72 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:18.959 do. But they don't. As you said here, you know, SETI 73 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:25.519 is the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. And although the SETI Institute is really married 74 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:30.639 to this idea of radio signals, although their ideas are expanding, there are 75 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.680 other scientists who in fact they are scientists who have questioned this whole uh, 76 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:39.560 you know, method of doing it since the beginning. But there are other 77 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.279 scientists with other ideas. And you know what I really like about this article, 78 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.519 because I was not familiar with this term prior to it, was what 79 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:53.600 was that techno signals signatures? Yeah, techno signatures. I think that's a 80 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:58.600 better, more broad turn showing, you know, looking for other signatures of 81 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:03.720 technology, right right, and I you know, with the we have what 82 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:07.600 the James Web is that what it is that satellite going up that may you 83 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:11.480 know, we may have some major breakthroughs once that baby gets up there and 84 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.399 running mm hmm. Yeah. You know, the whole search for or the 85 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.600 looking for a heat and that's something I think Marked Antonio has talked about before, 86 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:28.240 who is a photo and video analysts remove on and also an astronomer. 87 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.600 He's talked about, you know, all these other signatures that give you an 88 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:39.639 indication that there could be an advanced civilization. And one interesting aspect of that 89 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:46.639 is, you know, some people like you know, even the famous scientist 90 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:50.080 Stephen Hawking talked about we should try to be silent. We don't want any 91 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.360 you know, ets to find us. They might hurt us. But Mark 92 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.559 makes a great point in that it's way too late for that. I mean, 93 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.480 besides, they most like we already have, I mean possibly already have. 94 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.639 But you know, we are sending out we are sending out all types 95 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.120 of signs and them. Yeah, you know, just think of it this 96 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.279 way. We're gonna probably be able to figure it out by eventually by looking 97 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:16.440 out there. Well why can't they look here and see you know what a 98 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:24.879 what we're all the gases we're putting up there, you you know, but 99 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.919 I mean good one. Yeah, there's the heat signatures. I mean, 100 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:33.639 we make the planet hotter, not just talking about global warming, which man 101 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:39.799 is inducing, but also you know, just that the heat generated by our 102 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:43.480 houses or by the electricity that we create, all of these other things. 103 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.879 So, uh, these create a hit heat signature. The gases like you 104 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.720 mentioned. Of course, we're lit up like a Christmas tree with a light. 105 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.159 We're sending out various signals. So there's a number of ways that we're 106 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:01.679 just broadcasting. Hey look at us, we're here. So it's quide. 107 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:05.840 Yeah. So it's great. You know that there are these scientists because there's 108 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.480 this guy first and then there was that Colombo scientists who spoke it said, 109 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.440 who said, hey, you know, we need to take this seriously and 110 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:20.320 any potential that shows that we may be dealing with an extraterrestrial civilization visiting us 111 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.840 we need to take seriously and look into and not just laugh it off. 112 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:33.480 And his argument or his paper was taken very well by the set of group. 113 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.679 It seems like, even says Shostak, said, it sounded there was 114 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.240 a lot of reason to it, which was interesting for him to say, 115 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:48.399 although he certainly didn't appreciate that the media completely getting the story wrong pretty much 116 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.440 when they reported on him. Yeah, they, I think they. I 117 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:58.799 think it was the the article titles that went out there, you know, 118 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:03.480 the headlines of the article. We're kind of misleading in a couple of them, 119 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:05.639 and yeah, that got them riled up. I think, yeah, 120 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:11.480 yeah, I got It's an embarrassing situation. I mean, sometimes working with 121 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:15.679 the scientists can be difficult because you have to get everything exactly correct and they 122 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.200 don't, and you know, they just don't want what they're saying misinterpreted, 123 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:24.519 and that can be difficult because they can have the slightest changing of what they're 124 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:30.840 saying can have a massively different connotation, and you know, to their colleagues 125 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.919 that could be very damaging because their colleagues will not be potentially happy about what 126 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.159 they say or that can be used against them, because I don't think people 127 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:45.919 realize, you know, just like people and UFO researchers argue about things or 128 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:50.360 disagree, scientists are like that too, and they can be very competitive or 129 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:56.840 you know, just very I guess, passionate about defending their particular stances. 130 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.000 I am sure, I am sure, you know. I was reading also 131 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:09.200 this astro twenty twenty. It's a Decaytal decadal survey on astronomy and astrophysics. 132 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.440 This is a survey that they're feeling on. Boy, I'll tell you, 133 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.720 your eyes go blurry after you're reading it for a while. But they they're 134 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.840 in part of it. They refer to the government shut down like they're delaying 135 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:28.799 this and delaying that. And it's pretty interesting. But there's six surveys involved 136 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.919 in this, and boy, I'll tell you when you're you're right. When 137 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:37.240 they write something, it is so detailed and down to the point, and 138 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.799 so I can understand why they get upset if someone misquotes them or misreads what 139 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:48.799 they're trying to say when they're trying to cover all the bases. So this 140 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.200 was a survey of astronomy and astrophysics. I don't know a whole lot about 141 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.600 it. Was it finished, No, it's asking people to contribute to it 142 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:05.399 based you submit to it, and there's white paper submissions and all that. 143 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:11.559 See, this is exciting. What's exciting about this is that kind of like 144 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.720 what you just talked about in this story, there's a there's an openness to 145 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:24.440 the idea of extraterrestrial civilizations and even visitation among mainstream science that we've never had 146 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:31.960 before. Tabby Star. I think that's how you say, it's fun to 147 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.840 say, here's probably that's I think it's even Polynesian or something, so you're 148 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:41.600 probably supposed to say so. I can't think of at other but there's been 149 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:46.000 some other situations where it's been the scientists who have said, hey, this 150 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.240 may be alien and uh and so there's yeah, just definitely a more of 151 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.440 an opening. So it'll be interesting. And we have seen this in different 152 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:03.279 like when organizations have talked to about their priorities, uh this like in that 153 00:14:03.480 --> 00:14:11.879 paper, this priority on the discovery of extraterrestrial life and even the theorizing around 154 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:18.159 extraterrestrial advanced civilizations that we may see some of that in these papers that are 155 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:24.679 submitted yeah right himself was part of the group that was suggesting that the Tabby 156 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:28.879 star could have been, you know, surrounded by the alien megastructure, but 157 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:33.080 he was also part of the debunking of it when they got more of the 158 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:37.440 data, which you know, I mean that is that's one thing, you 159 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:43.039 know, science is supposed to be about, exactly, discovery, You change. 160 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:48.519 You don't hang on to something when you know when reality strikes. Yes, 161 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:56.639 when when data it is discovered that counters what you your suspicion, you 162 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:03.039 know, your your first prior is to examine that data and take it for 163 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:07.600 what it is and figure out if it's real or not, unlike you know 164 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.000 a lot of people who will then kill them or try to attack the messenger 165 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:16.720 of that data as opposed to looking at the data itself, especially if it, 166 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.480 you know, counters their worldview. And lord knows, we're used to 167 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:26.960 that when it comes to kind of ufo mythologies that are out there, by 168 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.840 the way, I use that term ufo mythology, and I want to speak 169 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:37.240 to this again, although I think we've done it before, but just to 170 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.120 kind of especially when we're talking about science, and I would love to hear 171 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.159 your perspective on this. Someone said, hey, I love you know the 172 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.840 show, but you and Martin sound like your skeptics, Like you don't even 173 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.879 believe in ufoss. You've been told that before, and what is your response. 174 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.039 I have been I have been told And because I was actually I had 175 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.799 Tyler Rogaway on and he was saying, you know how there is so much 176 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:14.519 out there that is real, why you know, why focus on when when 177 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.840 something you know, try to try to get rid of the debris that you 178 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.279 can figure out what it is so you don't have to bother wasting any time 179 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.919 on that. And I said something like, wow, this is really what 180 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:26.960 I like to hear. And I got I got a couple of emails from 181 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:32.799 that boy. You are a you are a debunker, you know. I 182 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:37.600 think it's I think he made the point for all of us, really, 183 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.519 I mean in what he said, you know, I mean, there is 184 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.960 there is so much out there that can't be explained that is really good, 185 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.480 then why not just weed through the rest of it and you know, the 186 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:53.639 stuff that isn't good, just forget about it, move on exactly. Yeah, 187 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:59.000 it's it's not good data people, and that's what we're talking about. 188 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:04.720 And it doesn't hurt to explore something you have not proven, even if it 189 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:10.519 is mythology. And I like that term because it's a good term. In 190 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.559 my humble opinion. Mythology doesn't necessarily mean it's not something that is real, 191 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:21.039 but it is something that we discuss kind of this reality that's been created that 192 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:26.799 is not confirmed, sometimes dubious, but sometimes it is confirmed, and it 193 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:33.640 doesn't hurt to explore those things and to let that guide your explanation or exploration. 194 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.079 That's what scientists is that theory or something observed but not proven, and 195 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.640 then you try to discover what that is. But you've got to follow the 196 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:48.720 data and see what the data tells you and not just blindly accept information even 197 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.759 if you have counter data, because then that's more akin to a religion or 198 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:59.960 a belief system than it is to actual investigation, which again, you know, 199 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.640 everybody has a right to believe whatever they want. But when we're trying 200 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:10.000 to research and discover something about, you know, the nature of some sort 201 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.960 of phenomena like we are, then we, like Tyler said, don't waste 202 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.000 your time with the bad information, use the good information and see what you 203 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:22.799 can find. And it's it's pretty much what a tip, you know, 204 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.519 leading into what Nick and I are going to be talking about that they have 205 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.559 done. You know, I'm sure, just like myself, you get a 206 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.119 lot of really positive email too, And one was very nice that came in 207 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.920 the other day. Someone wrote and said, while you've been doing this for 208 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.599 many years and you haven't sold out like so many others have, And I 209 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:47.079 just thought, Wow, what a really nice thing for someone to say. 210 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:52.799 And you know, and that goes I feel the same way about you. 211 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.599 You haven't. You haven't sold out. You try to stick to the facts. 212 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.799 You're doing the UFO seriously show, which I really appreciate, you know. 213 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.079 And and anyway, I just think, you know, anyone can spin 214 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:12.160 a tail and spend a yard a yarn as they say, and you know, 215 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.079 become very popular just because it's interesting and fascinating and they can hold an 216 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.079 audience and all that. But if you're going away from facts, you're not 217 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.519 doing anyone and yourself and especially the field, you're not doing any good to 218 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.119 anyone. Mm hmm. I agree. And you know what, I kind 219 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:36.319 of I feel like I was gonna it's funny when you said that, when 220 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:37.240 you said, I feel like you do that too, because I was going 221 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.519 to give you some kudos for for the same reason that person did that. 222 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:48.240 You haven't you know, gone off into a tangent. You've stuck to the 223 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.279 real information. And I would also say this, I think that it's important 224 00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:00.119 because this is a little bit of a niche the serious really look at this 225 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.359 topic. It's easy to make assumptions and speculate, and there are a lot 226 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:08.960 of people out there doing that, and I again, I do not necessarily 227 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:15.759 fault those people. That is, those sort of things can lead to discoveries, 228 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:22.079 but there are less people doing like what that person who wrote you said 229 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.599 you're doing, which is sticking to their guns and trying to stick to the 230 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:33.319 good information. And I feel that the community of people doing that is so 231 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.480 small that it just makes me even more compelled to stick to that. First 232 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.279 of all, it's journalistic, and you know, that's an important thing to 233 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:47.799 me, but also because it is very revealing. I mean, here we 234 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:52.799 have the real when you're walking into when you're doing an interview with which happens 235 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.799 you know, I get these calls from the news, local and sometimes national, 236 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:02.599 and when you're doing those interviews and when you have information that is established, 237 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.200 and you can always do that. If they call about a situation that's 238 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:08.559 more dubious, you can say, well, we don't have a lot to 239 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:15.240 substantiate. That may be the case. However, here's another case that this 240 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.519 sort of thing has happened, and we have a lot of evidence to show 241 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.880 that. You know, there's something mysterious related to this other case that is 242 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.599 similar to the one you're talking about, and it allows you then to feed 243 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.240 some information where then you're taken more seriously, and that goes a long way, 244 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:36.319 a really long way. And that's why we've made some amazing headway I 245 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:40.519 think in the last year when it comes to mainstream science, like we just 246 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:48.039 talked about or media in this arena, M right exciting all zis Yeah, 247 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.759 I didn't send my time or I have no idea how much time we have 248 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:55.240 left deserve? Are we going to be talking about any other? So yeah, 249 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:56.359 we've got time. If you've got time for another way of two and 250 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.480 a half minutes. Oh, I was going to ask you if you had 251 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.279 anything. Oh, I've always got something. Let's see what I Okay, 252 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:10.839 Well, there's been a lot of talk about the last episode on Project Operation 253 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.039 paper Clip and we don't have to talk about that, sure, but I 254 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:18.960 wondered if you want to touch on that, because I watched the screener I 255 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.960 don't know, a month ago or something like that, and I thought, 256 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.839 wow, you could skip this one in this bit it's I've kind of seen 257 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:32.720 some people talking about about it, and what is your feedback on that particular 258 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:38.680 episode. So my review on den of Geek of this episode started off the 259 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:47.240 truth or history be damned as Nazis invade Project blue Book because probably what you're 260 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:52.480 disappointed about it really did diverge greatly from the reality. Project blue Book had 261 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:56.240 nothing to do with some of this stuff. You know, there's this whole 262 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:03.759 aspect where Mimi Heinek's wife is being followed and invests spite on by Russians, 263 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.079 which is also far from the truth. In fact, I didn't get it 264 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:08.960 in time for this article, but I'll include it in a future article. 265 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.400 I asked Paul Heinik what he felt about that. I had already done that 266 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:17.839 somewhat, but I didn't have the specifics of the content of the episodes, 267 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:19.720 and he said, you know what, it doesn't bother me so much. 268 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:22.319 I mean, that never happened. It is all made up, but I 269 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.880 can see this is a fiction and why they would need to do that. 270 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:30.839 It makes it exciting and intriguing. But yeah, certainly nothing like that ever 271 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:36.680 happened with my mom. So here's what I like about it though, is 272 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.880 that getting back to the mythology, they're kind of paying at least some homage 273 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:48.079 to the popular UFO mythologies out there, and I think even expertly and intelligently 274 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:55.240 weaving them into the story. And in my last review I highlight some of 275 00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:00.160 these various different kind of mythologies out there that they weave into the show. 276 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.680 And I think this show served that purpose to kind of introduce all of this 277 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:14.079 stuff but also make the audience think about alternative possibilities to the UFO phenomenon. 278 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.200 For those reasons, I kind of enjoyed what they did. Plus it did 279 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.279 make it more exciting. M Yeah, I was wondering where this whole Russian 280 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:29.839 thing came from in this series. Yeah, I mean, really practically nowhere. 281 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.519 The German Steff project payper clip did happen. We don't know for certain 282 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:40.839 that any of the project's paper clip scientists who did build our space program had 283 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:45.039 anything to do with UFOs though, I mean, there's a couple of rumors 284 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.799 out there, but we're out of time. You'll have to read my story 285 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.119 on Den of Geek to find out more about that. But thank you very 286 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.680 much for joining us again, Martin. Always a pleasure here. All right, 287 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:10.720 let's go ahead and after this break we'll talk to Nick Pope. I 288 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:15.559 am extremely happy to welcome back Nick Pope to the show. Hello. Nick, 289 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:21.720 Hey, there, you are a frequent guest, but well always, 290 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:25.440 I was going to say especially now, but always you have important things to 291 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:29.680 say when it comes to this field, and you've got something important going on 292 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:36.599 right now as well, where you've received these documents, and maybe let's go 293 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.000 over if you don't mind what these documents are and how you receive them. 294 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:49.519 Okay, this is essentially the latest news in the still unfolding and extremely complex 295 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:56.000 story of the Pentagon's a Tip program. And we can get into all the 296 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.039 controversy about the names and the roles later, but it's essentially a few months 297 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:07.240 ago, a Swedish a Swedish researcher that's a bit of a tongue tongue twister. 298 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:15.799 A Swedish researcher called Roger Glassel noticed a throwaway line in the Congressional Record 299 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:22.920 dated April ninth last year, and it essentially said that the House Armed Services 300 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:33.359 Committee had received a DIA letter on the outputs of the ATIP contract. So 301 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:38.000 I saw that, as did a number of people. And I subsequently understand 302 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:45.599 that Roger and a whole bunch of other researchers who are interested in this, 303 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:52.279 and right across the story, Keith Basterfield, Paul Deine, John Greenwold, 304 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.599 Kirk Collins, a number of others. Maybe you did too. A whole 305 00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:00.480 bunch of people put in Freedom of Information Act request for that letter. After 306 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:07.160 all, it was cited in the Congressional record, so they knew it was 307 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.759 a thing. And if Congress has seen it, why shouldn't we see it 308 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.000 too? Fair Enough, I thought I would go down a different route. 309 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:21.160 So, because I work now as a freelance journalist and write for many of 310 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:29.240 the UK's national newspapers, I reached out to the DIA's Office of Corporate Communications 311 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:34.599 and I essentially asked the same thing. I said, I understand this letter 312 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:40.799 exists. It's here in the Congressional Record sent from the DIA to Congress. 313 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.880 I would like a copy please, And we went back and forward on this, 314 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:49.799 I have to say for some months, and every few weeks I would 315 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:55.240 check in and say, is there any news on this? And clearly there 316 00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:02.480 was a huge internal debate going on about the releaseability. Finally, after months 317 00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:07.440 of doing and throwing between myself and the DIA's Office of Communications, on January 318 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:15.079 sixteenth this year, an email arrived into my inbox from the DIA saying here's 319 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:23.559 the letter. And what I received was a one page cover letter, a 320 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:30.480 one page distribution letter, and a three page attachment. And we can get 321 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:37.400 into the details of all that in a moment. But I then took the 322 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.599 decision on the basis of the fact that I knew that there was huge media 323 00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:48.559 and public interest in this, that rather than wait and try and write up 324 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:53.559 this story, I took the decision to immediately publish it. So I tweeted, 325 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:00.400 I converted the PDF into a JPEG, and I put it out on 326 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:07.279 Facebook and Twitter almost immediately that I received it, so that everyone could see 327 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.359 the letter, could have the raw data, and I made over the course 328 00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.880 of the next few hours a couple of follow up tweets, and of course 329 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:23.839 that attracted the tension of various media outlets that follow my Twitter, and I 330 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:33.160 subsequently was contacted by fellow journalists. I collaborated with some articles and some interestingly 331 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.279 as ever, with this, it seems that the British newspapers were leading the 332 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:42.640 charge. The Metro ran a piece on this, the Sun ran something, 333 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:48.759 and then Fox News picked it up and I went on Tucker Carlson tonight to 334 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:55.039 discuss this. But it's an extraordinary revelation and it really is, I think, 335 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:59.720 a very important piece of the puzzle when it comes to the ongoing debate 336 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:03.119 about a tip. Mm hmm, yeah, there's a there's a lot. 337 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:10.880 We'll definitely dissected this article another I guess as far as the revelation of these 338 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:17.200 documents the second source, which was good because well, but have you speak 339 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.039 to this because this is kind of funny. I know, I was Actually 340 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:23.160 I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was surprised to hear I think you 341 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:29.759 tweeted about this. Some people were accusing you of having faked these documents. 342 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.960 Well, yes, this this was There were two parallel conspiracy theories. The 343 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.599 first was that I had somehow just faked this document. Actually, that would 344 00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:47.319 have been a criminal offense. Actually, I think faking or tampering with federal 345 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:52.839 documents is pretty serious crime, so I certainly would not go down that route. 346 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:57.640 That was one of the theories that I somehow faked the document, the 347 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:03.319 second theory, and that's easily dealt with because I mentioned earlier that people like 348 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:11.160 Roger Glassel and Keith Basterfield and others had applied for this under the Freedom of 349 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:17.160 Information Act, so had Stephen after Good from the Federation of American Scientists, 350 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.079 and the day after I published it, he actually published it and put it 351 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.599 out there. So unless unless Stephen and I and Roger Glassell and a whole 352 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:33.119 bunch of other researchers had somehow gotten together and decided to pull some immense prank 353 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:38.160 on everyone, that then that's a complete non starter. Now we are in 354 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:47.079 a situation where numerous journalists and researchers have acquired exactly the same thing from the 355 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:52.400 Defense Intelligence Agency. The only difference was that I got it from their office 356 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.480 of Corporate Communications. Most other people, so far as I'm aware, received 357 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.559 it from their Freedom of Information office. But it is obviously the same letter, 358 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:07.119 so that that's verifiable. The second related conspiracy theory I guess this is 359 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:12.880 a little harder to disprove, is that somehow I was working with the DIA 360 00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:19.000 as their chosen conduit to get this story out and that's why they chose to 361 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.039 release to me first. I don't think that's true. I suspect that if 362 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.039 we all sat down, we'd find that a number of people got it at 363 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:30.759 about the same time. I simply chose to tweet it first. I thought, 364 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:36.119 in this twenty four to seven media society, with social media being so 365 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:39.880 important, that I would just put it straight out there. So the fact 366 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:46.279 that I broke the story doesn't mean that somehow I'm in cahoots with the DIA 367 00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:52.920 on it. But yes, it was an interesting kind of twist to this 368 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:59.000 tale. And what's interesting, I think is an I don't know if this 369 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.400 is kind of struck you, but it has me. I just and we'll 370 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:07.200 get into the details of the documentary, but just to kind of examine the 371 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:14.000 UFO quote unquote research community, is that they are so conspiratorial, So no 372 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:20.440 matter what comes out, there are these like there's this complete conspiracy that a 373 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:22.680 Tip and Lou are kind of making things up and this is a lie and 374 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:28.519 they're tricking us, which is one of the problems for them that this document 375 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:34.079 presents, because it is kind of as if we didn't have enough. It's 376 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:39.279 corroborating what Lou and Harry Reid and others have said. But it's interesting that 377 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:46.039 this it's such a large pushback to this, you know, extraordinary kind of 378 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:52.319 revelatory information around this actual government program. Yes, I think it is. 379 00:33:52.400 --> 00:34:00.160 And I have not actually spoken to Lou since this document came out. I 380 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:06.160 mean, of course I understand. I think maybe it was actually from you. 381 00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:10.320 I've had so many conversations about this in the last week or two. 382 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.599 I apologize if I'm quoting your own conversation back to you. But so somebody 383 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:21.199 told me that Lou was pleased that this was out precisely because, of course 384 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.119 it confirmed what he had been saying all along. Of course, I think 385 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:30.079 it was ridiculous that anyone was would doubt that former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid 386 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:37.840 and a career intelligence officer like Lou would somehow have conspired to fool the world. 387 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:43.360 Clearly they didn't, and clearly we now have absolute proof, I mean, 388 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:47.159 the chain of custody, to use the current phrase of the moment, 389 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:54.159 with this document is absolutely clear. DIA sent this document to Congress. There 390 00:34:54.199 --> 00:35:00.840 can no longer be any debate about this. And if this has given people 391 00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:07.320 like Lou who is a loyal and patriotic guy, if it's given him a 392 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:13.840 little bit of extra top cover that now the DIA has released this to Congress, 393 00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:16.239 so this at least is out there and can be talked about, then 394 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:21.840 great. Yeah, exactly it was me and yeah I was able to do 395 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.039 to talk to him just a couple of days ago, and he did say 396 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:30.400 exactly that that's a good way to put it, because yeah, now he 397 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:32.960 felt more comfortable to talk about this, and he has said, you know, 398 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.360 he shouldn't be the conduit. He can't. First of all, as 399 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.800 you've said, he can't reveal anything that he is bound, you know, 400 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:45.519 by a secrecy acts not to, nor does he want to, because as 401 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:50.440 you said, he's a loyal patriot. But when situations like this happen, 402 00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:54.639 then it does allow him to speak to those things more. Yes, it 403 00:35:54.719 --> 00:36:00.000 does. And he's used the phrase I think many times that what he would 404 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.760 like to see as a conversation with the American people about this, and now 405 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.719 we have this letter to Congress, I think this is a hook, another 406 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:15.119 hook, but a more substantial hook perhaps than we've ever had before on which 407 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.960 to hang that conversation. Mm hm. Now, the other aspect is that 408 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:24.880 something similar to these documents has been released before, and it was a leak 409 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:31.480 from George Knapp and Klas in Las Vegas. But there is an important distinction 410 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:37.079 between what you received and what George had posted earlier, and so maybe you 411 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:43.159 could talk to that sure thing. Well, George Knapp has obviously done a 412 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.719 lot of excellent investigative journalism on this story. Also, he is somebody who 413 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:53.800 is closely connected with a number of the key players in this whole situation. 414 00:36:54.920 --> 00:37:00.840 Some time ago, as you say, George acquired and put out a list 415 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:12.920 of what appeared to be duh's defense intelligence reference documents related to the A program, 416 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:19.920 and it was partially reacted, and of course it was slightly sanitized, 417 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.440 and in terms of its provenance, this speaks to what you were saying about. 418 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.840 Well, people, people have been skeptical about this, people have been 419 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:32.679 doubting this. I'm not going to get into and I don't know, and 420 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:37.599 I wouldn't want to know how George acquired those those documents. But if anyone 421 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:45.320 was doubting George and the list that he'd acquired. What I acquired a week 422 00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:52.639 or so ago from the DIA completely vindicated George nat because essentially it's the same 423 00:37:52.679 --> 00:38:00.719 list. It's just it's slightly different. One of the items that was redacted 424 00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.480 in the original is now unredacted. A little bit of the formatting and things 425 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:14.239 is different. But you can do a comparative analysis between what I've acquired and 426 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:19.559 what George Napp acquired some time ago, and it's it's clearly the same thing. 427 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:27.119 So this I think vindicates what George Napp and Klas put out some time 428 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:31.559 ago. But now now we have it officially from the DIA, this is 429 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:37.440 not a leak. This is released officially under the Freedom of Information Act on 430 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:43.440 a press officer to journalist basis in my case, and it's now out there 431 00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:47.239 and it's completely legitimate, and we can begin to have a conversation about this 432 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.440 and try and unpick what it all means. M hm. And that is 433 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:57.719 something that you've been paying attention to. And as I think an important note 434 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:05.360 that we have received there very very very little officially regarding a tip. Sure 435 00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:09.320 we've hear heard from Lou we've heard from witnesses to the Nimitz encounter that was 436 00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:13.719 in that New York Times article that revealed all of this. We've heard from 437 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:20.239 Harry Reid, so this is anecdotal information. We've gotten leaks from George Knapp, 438 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.440 and some information shared by to the Stars, but very little officially, 439 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:30.079 which it makes this document one of the very few official pieces of information other 440 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:35.000 than these little kind of breadcrumbs that you've also been able to find and others 441 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:40.960 in other documents. Yes, I think if I was asked to list what 442 00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:49.440 we have by way of a tip paperwork officially confirmed as opposed to just rumor, 443 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:54.119 I would say it's this five page letter from the DIA to Congress. 444 00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:59.159 And by the way, of course, it went to the late John McCain 445 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.719 as chairman of the Armed Services Committee, and it went to the ranking member, 446 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.880 Jack Reid. And the distributional list is interesting too, I mean a 447 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:14.119 wider than I had expected. Distribution list. It went to the Speaker, 448 00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:20.000 it went to the Minority Leader, the Majority and Minority whips, It went 449 00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:25.559 to the Armed Services Committee, the Select Committee on Intelligence, the Appropriations Committee. 450 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:30.320 Really did go far, far and wide. But yes, in terms 451 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:36.400 of what we have officially, we have this letter, we have Harry Reid's 452 00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:43.440 June twenty fourth, two thousand and nine letter to a deputy Defense secretary, 453 00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.599 and we have, frankly, apart from that, we just have a few 454 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:54.480 emails from press officers at the DoD confirming that yes, a tip was a 455 00:40:54.519 --> 00:41:00.760 program, and that's about it. That's about it, right, So there's 456 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:06.480 very very little officially. The great thing is is that everything that has been 457 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:10.400 coming out officially, for the most part, besides a couple of comments I 458 00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:19.519 guess from the press DoD press representative, they have been supportive or corroborative of 459 00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:27.440 what read Elizondo and NAP's leaks have all been in line. Yes they have. 460 00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:31.800 And that's of course, one of the great things that any intelligence analyst 461 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:37.800 will tell you is is that when you have corroboration from multiple sources, that's 462 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.679 that's an important part of the story. Now, of course, one has 463 00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:49.039 to guard against collusion in those scenarios. But yeah, so far this all 464 00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.239 looks good. And then I will touch on this because I did allude to 465 00:41:53.280 --> 00:42:00.320 it just a second ago. One I guess disparity is and John Greenwell certainly 466 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:02.039 makes a big point of this. I think it was one of the main 467 00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:05.920 people to kind of get to this is that, you know, the the 468 00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.800 at least regarding the videos that were released by The New York Times and To 469 00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:14.199 the Stars, lou has said that, you know, the d D releases 470 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.199 videos. That's what the New York Times actually, I said, that's what 471 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:22.559 Leslie Kane said. She received those from a third party, not from Alizondo 472 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.320 or to the Stars. And so however, the press representative this major I 473 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.559 can't remember her her name, has told people and has told Greenwald that they 474 00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.199 did not release those videos. I personally have seen a document that has not 475 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:43.360 been made public yet that does show that the DoD release the video. So 476 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:49.760 that's still one area of contention where hopefully will receive some official word on that. 477 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.559 But what is your thoughts on that situation? Yes, I have seen 478 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:55.440 I don't think there are any problems. Well, you know what, I'm 479 00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:00.960 not going to name her because usually when even though the name is in the 480 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:07.199 public domain, usually when I deal with the press office of any organization, 481 00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:14.239 the kind of convention is that it's on a non attributable basis. In other 482 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:16.360 words, you can confirm that you received it from the press officer, But 483 00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:22.039 you're not supposed to then publish their emails and put their name out there. 484 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.639 But I have seen those emails, and for example, I've seen I've seen 485 00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:32.239 an email from one of the DoD press officers talking about the name discrepancy. 486 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:37.840 We've had, of course, the whole debate about Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, 487 00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:50.119 Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program, Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program, and 488 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:55.920 of course ORSAP Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Application Program. And I've seen some emails 489 00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:01.079 which basically say things like, you know, just an alternative name for a 490 00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:08.519 tip, or you know, same same program basically a tip the official name. 491 00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:14.719 But yes, I have seen an email where that particular press officer says 492 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:20.239 words to the effect of we did not release those videos. I think, 493 00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:24.960 of course, without wanting to disparage any press officer, very often you're dealing 494 00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.079 with the situation where the press office, well the press officer is never the 495 00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:35.280 subject matter expert, So the press officer is getting advice on whatever questions come 496 00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:40.679 in from journalists from the subject matter expert or experts. And if any of 497 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:47.400 this relates to intelligence programs, then you don't even necessarily in the press office 498 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:54.199 get the full story, particularly if My own theory about this was that these 499 00:44:54.280 --> 00:45:00.880 videos were kind of put out there as almost like a te almost like, 500 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.159 hey, we've looked at this and we don't have any ideas, let's put 501 00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:09.000 them out onto specialist aviation forums and kind of see if anyone else, see 502 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:16.639 if we can't leverage and weaponize the knowledge and experience of the aviation community out 503 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:22.039 there. So I suspect they did release them, but not necessarily through the 504 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:28.159 normal official channels. And you know what's interesting about all of this as well, 505 00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.159 and I think you can speak to this, and I feel like, 506 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:36.719 at least with some of the UFO research community, they just kind of don't 507 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:40.960 get this, is that the media has not had a problem with that issue. 508 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:47.880 The media has gone essentially to the subject experts who are Lou Alexando and 509 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:52.599 Harry Reid, and for the most part, the media has taken their word 510 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:59.480 for all of this and kind of overlooked kind of what the press department had 511 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.119 said, which makes sense to me because as you mentioned, you know, 512 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:08.079 they are the subject matter experts, and they seem to have enough credibility where 513 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:12.960 the media is happy with working with them. And what they have to say, 514 00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.559 yes, and the bottom line. Of course, right at the beginning 515 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:21.039 of all of this, The New York Times would never have run this had 516 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:24.360 they not then sat down with someone in the press office and said, this 517 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:28.000 is what we've got, this is what we're going to run, but we 518 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:34.880 do need you to confirm that a TIP existed, and albeit begrudgingly, absolutely, 519 00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:37.960 they confirmed yes, there's a program. Now, I think the really 520 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:44.480 interesting question comes when we discussed, well, yes ATIP exists, that's now 521 00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:49.119 indisputable, but what was its true nature? And I'm sure we're going to 522 00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:53.480 get into that. We are because although it's a bit subtle, these documents 523 00:46:53.559 --> 00:47:00.079 you found do give us a great insight into that. But before that, 524 00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:04.360 you didn't mention all of the different names for the acronym of a TIP. 525 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:09.360 And do you make anything of the acronym used in this letter is at the 526 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:15.719 Advanced Aerospace Threat and Identification Program, which is essentially what again Alessandro has been 527 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:21.800 telling us. They just added that three letter word, and in there do 528 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:25.519 you make anything of that? Not really, having served for twenty one years 529 00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:31.679 in government, I know that these sorts of bureaucratic things happen all the time, 530 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:37.800 projects get renamed, projects have a colloquial name as opposed to an official 531 00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:44.119 name. Somebody slips an end in there, you know, even when you 532 00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:50.559 look at internal documents from the organization owning the program, sometimes things change and 533 00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:54.719 then you find out people are working in silos. So some manager comes along 534 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.000 and says, you know what, I'm going to merge these two programs and 535 00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:01.559 you get another name. I don't think we should get too hung up on 536 00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.000 that sort of thing. I mean, yes, details are important, but 537 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:12.199 if someone's going to try and try and pourch cold water on the whole story 538 00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:16.199 just because somebody says aerospace and somebody else says aviation, or just because somebody 539 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:21.800 slips an end in there, that I don't think that's significant, right. 540 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:28.800 That's kind of chasing an insignificant point and then overlooking all of what is significant. 541 00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:34.360 And there is a lot of significant information in these documents. And that's 542 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.440 what I'm really another thing I'm excited to talk to you about to get your 543 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:42.199 analysis. But before we do that, we do have to take a short 544 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:46.159 break. So for those of you listening on a KGr or any other radio 545 00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:51.360 station, you'll hear some commercials the rest of you will just hear a short 546 00:48:51.599 --> 00:49:15.000 musical interlude and we'll be right back with Nick Pope. Welcome back to Open 547 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:21.000 Mind UFO Radio. I'm here with Nick Pope and we are talking about these 548 00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:28.440 documents that he got from the Defense Intelligence Agency, which essentially go over what 549 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:37.960 the products or dirts that were used by the A KIT program. So when 550 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:43.239 you look at this list, what does it tell you? Well, I 551 00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:47.199 want to back up a moment and look at the cover letter before I look 552 00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:52.400 at the attachment, because this, to me is the most interesting part of 553 00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:58.400 the story. And this is the part that I think with my government background, 554 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:05.400 it lacked out me straight to U and there is a total disconnect between 555 00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:10.440 what's said to Congress in the cover letter and what the list of attachments actually 556 00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:15.880 says. And here's the thing. If you look at the cover letter, 557 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:22.000 they have this line and they say the purpose of a tip was to investigate 558 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:29.920 foreign advanced aerospace weapon threats from the present out to the next forty years. 559 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:37.159 So, in other words, here's what happened. I think Congressional staffers were 560 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:42.360 just as intrigued as everyone else to read the New York Times story about a 561 00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:47.039 TIP when it first broke just over a year ago, and many of those 562 00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:54.039 congressional staffers, and particularly on the Senate and House Armed Services Committee, they, 563 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.800 of course, as you would expect a good staffer to do, culture 564 00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:04.800 of no surprises. No staffer wants their boss asked about something and they don't 565 00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:08.000 have the answer. So the staff has reached out to the DIA and said, 566 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:12.920 hey, you know, we've seen in the New York Times and the 567 00:51:12.960 --> 00:51:16.119 Post and everyone's talking about this a TIP program. What the heck are you 568 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:21.559 guys doing. We need we need some briefing on this in case, in 569 00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:29.599 case somebody like John McCain or Jack Reid gets asked. So DIA then sent 570 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:35.960 the the letter and as I say, they had this phrase and they said 571 00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:39.760 the purpose of a TIP was to investigate foreign advanced aerospace weapon threats from the 572 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:45.360 present out to the next forty years. If you're receiving that letter, what 573 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:51.559 will you think? I think what I would think is, well, this 574 00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.960 is it is as it says, it's it's looking. It's a next generation 575 00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:06.000 aerospace program and in tell elligence program looking at the sorts of threats the United 576 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:09.320 States might face over the next forty years. And you would think they were 577 00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:15.639 probably talking about aircraft, missiles and drones, Russians, Chinese, Iranians, 578 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:23.079 North Koreans, etc. So that's what the cover letter says. Then you 579 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:30.519 look at the list of attachments and you get into this surreal X files territory 580 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:38.800 because the list of attachments covers subjects including anti gravity, invisibility, cloaking, 581 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:47.280 stargates, warp drive, and wormholes. And if I was sitting in Congress, 582 00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:50.920 I would say, well, wait a minute, that there is a 583 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:54.679 total disconnect. You're telling us, or you're implying to us, that this 584 00:52:54.800 --> 00:53:00.280 is an aerospace program, but an awful lot of this doesn't sound particularly like 585 00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:07.599 aerospace. This sounds like space travel. I mean, advanced nuclear propulsion for 586 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:14.039 manned deep space missions. I mean, why are we talking about manned deep 587 00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:20.880 space missions if this is just an aerospace program? Right? And it's kind 588 00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:27.079 of it's well, what's interesting if you're like, Okay, what foreign entities 589 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.159 are they speaking about? If you were to look at the list like you're 590 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:35.119 talking about, you would be like, wow, they're talking about space. 591 00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:43.159 They're talking about something foreign to this planet apparently exactly, And looking down the 592 00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:51.280 list of thirty eight attachments, there are no papers on things like Chinese factory 593 00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:58.599 capacity. There are no papers on things like Russian engineering skills. There are 594 00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:05.800 no papers on North Korean ballistic missile aspirations. There are no papers on Iranian 595 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:13.960 leadership, strategic aviation plans, nothing. There is nothing on Russian, Chinese, 596 00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:17.639 Iranian, North Korean, anyone else, aircraft, missiles, drones, 597 00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:24.599 or satellites. All this is all about deep space travel and the absolute, 598 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:30.599 the absolute smoking gun is that one of these one of these papers is about 599 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:37.119 the Drake equation. Now, as you know, the Drake equation, formulated 600 00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:44.960 by the astronomer, the radio astronomer Frank Drake, is a mechanism whereby an 601 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:52.320 attempt is made to calculate how many communicable civilizations there might be in the universe. 602 00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.159 Well, look, if this program was about Russian and Chinese drones, 603 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:04.440 you would not have a paper on the Drake equation as one of the products 604 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:09.519 produced under the contract, would you. It's it's a total disconnect. So, 605 00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:15.000 in other words, what we are dealing with here is what I would 606 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:23.800 call spin. The DIA and the DoD have attempted since this revelation came out 607 00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:29.800 to spin this as yes, we did all right, it's a fair cop. 608 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.280 You've got us. There was an a tip program, but it's really 609 00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:38.119 just looking at next generation aerospace threats. And yet now we have official, 610 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:44.239 the official list of reference documents. The answer is no, that's not what 611 00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:47.000 they were looking at at all. And I hope, I hope that the 612 00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:52.559 people sitting on the Senate Armed Services Committee and the House Armed Services Committee pushed 613 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:58.519 back against that and spotted exactly what I spotted its trade away. And wait 614 00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:01.559 a minute, people, you know so there's a total disconnect between what you've 615 00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:08.559 told us this program is and the thirty eight things that you list as reference 616 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:14.320 documents. What's going on? Mm hmm. And well, there's a lot 617 00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.320 more to get into that way. But because it does, and a lot 618 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:21.280 of people have made this comparison that it reads like an X Files kind of 619 00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:27.079 department, which in a way it was more so than I think the media 620 00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:31.719 has really caught on actually fully. But after good who you mentioned earlier, 621 00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:37.880 of the Federation of American Scientists, he told Fox News, I think you're 622 00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:43.679 in this story as well, that this is the here's the quote. These 623 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:46.559 are the these are the kind of actually told us to Motherboard. These are 624 00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:51.280 the kinds of topics you pursue when you have more money than you know what 625 00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.079 to do with. Well, I don't agree with that. I think that 626 00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:04.840 anyone involved in advanced programs of any nature is always or should always be prepared 627 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:08.960 to think the unthinkable. And this is what we call in government. Even 628 00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:14.880 if we think it's unlikely, the payoff if any of this comes to fruition 629 00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:19.880 is immense. We call it low probability high impact. Now, sure, 630 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:23.480 a lot of what they were looking at under a tip is what you would 631 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:29.760 call some fairly far out theoretical physics. Some would probably call it fringe science. 632 00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:32.880 Does that mean we shouldn't be doing it? Absolutely not. I mean 633 00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:38.960 government looks at all of this in terms of threats and opportunities. The opportunity 634 00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:44.960 if we can get any of this to work is immense. The threat if 635 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.159 somebody else gets this to work, like the Russians and the Chinese and we 636 00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:53.320 are not looking at it, is immense. But I think that's just one 637 00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:59.199 side of it. The other side, going back to names, given that 638 00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:04.440 there is this disconnect between what they implied and what they actually did, the 639 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:12.639 question arises is foreign in the context of how the DA used the term actually 640 00:58:12.679 --> 00:58:20.280 the latest euphemism for what the public would call UFOs. Yeah, which I 641 00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:25.599 think we have ran into in the past as well, certainly with you know, 642 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.800 Foreign Technology Division. It is at right Patterson. Of course we're practice 643 00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:37.360 blue Book was, and so there's always kind of been this relationship there. 644 00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:44.199 In fact, of course we've got the alleged stories or the stories of Colonel 645 00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:49.440 Course, so that are pretty wild. But he of course says he came 646 00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:55.000 across this information while working with the Division of Foreign Technology, So it there 647 00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:59.519 is something to be said that it would make sense that this would be a 648 00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:07.760 the kind of department tasks with looking at an unknown you know technology. Yes, 649 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:14.440 And in one sense, if you're sitting running a program looking at aerial 650 00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:19.679 threats, I know this might sound fantastical to people, but in one sense 651 00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:23.280 you don't care. Well, you do care, but it doesn't matter whether 652 00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:29.599 the threat comes from Russia or China or from somewhere considerably further afield. If 653 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:31.239 there's something in your airspace, you want to know what it is. And 654 00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:39.599 clearly they were studying a number of unknowns. And indeed the only time that 655 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:46.440 the DoD didn't try to spin this was in a couple of emails to researchers 656 00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:52.880 where as well as using this term, and there are variations on it, 657 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:58.199 like far term foreign advanced aerospace threats, they did throw in for good measure, 658 00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:06.679 including anomally events such as sightings of aerodynamic vehicles engaged in extreme maneuvers with 659 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:14.960 unique phenomenology reported by US Navy pilots or other credible sources. So you can, 660 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:19.000 if you look hard, find a couple of places where they've gone further 661 01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:23.079 than saying that this is just about Russians and Chinese, but you have to 662 01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:32.400 look carefully. What's also interesting is that this report came out and as you've 663 01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:37.719 noted before, and last time we had you on was after your article in 664 01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:45.599 the Guardian, this doesn't seem to have completely scared away those in Washington who 665 01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:52.079 may have an interest. No, the Senate Armed Services Committee is, I 666 01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:57.800 believe, still looking at this. They've taken evidence from some of the US 667 01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:02.679 Navy personnel involved in the Nimitz incident, for example. Whether any of this 668 01:01:02.880 --> 01:01:10.519 congressional interest will translate into formal congressional hearings public or otherwise, I don't know 669 01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:16.360 that. I think is the well one of the current big unanswered questions about 670 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:21.599 all this, what's going on behind the scenes. Let's not forget Congress have 671 01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:25.599 had this letter for over a year now. I think a couple of people 672 01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:30.239 have misread the date. It's not January ninth, twenty nineteen. It was 673 01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:36.400 January nineteenth and January ninth last year. It's just it's taken that long to 674 01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:42.679 get the darn thing out into the public domain. So clearly the Armed Services 675 01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:47.599 Committee has had this and others in Congress have had this for a while. 676 01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:53.880 What's going on behind the scenes. That's an interesting question, right exactly because 677 01:01:54.280 --> 01:02:00.360 even that document you said that clued you into this was from April. So 678 01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:07.440 this thing is kind of persisting and making the rounds, which, again going 679 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:12.480 back to what Lou has said, I mean, I think that that's really 680 01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:19.119 important in that here again we have information officially that is corroborating everything that Lou 681 01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:23.039 is telling us. And I feel in speaking with him that he has been 682 01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:30.440 honest, careful in choosing his words to make sure he is accurate, and 683 01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:37.880 you know, letting people know when he is speculating, and so that gives 684 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:43.079 you know, him more credibility. And he's writing like on medium and they're 685 01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:46.639 posting these on to the stars that their goal is essentially to grease the wiels 686 01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:52.159 of government to get more information like this out and have the people responsible for 687 01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:58.440 the different aspects of investigation or paying attention or working with the public to be 688 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:04.360 doing that. And what's interesting is that we are seeing this kind of behind 689 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:09.039 the scenes thing happening. So it's a bit exciting. And would you say 690 01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:14.199 it would be accurate to say that it looks like wills are being greased, 691 01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:17.880 that there is a movement behind the scenes in DC, you know, in 692 01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:24.800 Washington on this topic. Yes, I think there is. Lou Like any 693 01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:30.400 good intelligence officer, it's careful to differentiate between what he thinks and what he 694 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:35.760 knows. He's also very careful like me, when you've been involved in those 695 01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:38.920 sorts of programs, there's a line and you don't cross that line. So 696 01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:49.840 you can encourage Congress to take an interest, and when the agencies themselves release 697 01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:52.360 paperwork, you can speak to it, but you can't preempt that process. 698 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:58.639 So it is I know, I get that people are frustrated with this and 699 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.519 they want things to move quicker, But my goodness, if people kind of 700 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:06.559 realized something about government you know, they should realize sometimes how slowly it moves. 701 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:12.440 But yeah, small moves, and those small moves I think are going 702 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:15.719 on behind the scenes, and I know that Lou and others are going to 703 01:04:15.760 --> 01:04:23.039 continue to be involved in that process. But all of this absolutely vindicates what 704 01:04:23.159 --> 01:04:28.679 he's said. It vindicates what Harry Reid has said. And clearly this story 705 01:04:28.719 --> 01:04:33.000 has only now been out there about the letter to Congress for a week or 706 01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:38.360 so. It's still early days. There are a lot of journalists and researchers 707 01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:45.239 still digesting this, and a lot more questions have to be asked. A 708 01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:48.559 lot more FOI requests are going in. I know that so interesting times. 709 01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:55.559 M hm. Now, you are in sort of a similar position to Lou 710 01:04:55.599 --> 01:04:58.480 and we've talked about that quite a bit. That's why we had you come 711 01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:02.559 and speak, when you know, to analyze his interview with us at the 712 01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:10.920 International UFO Congress last year. But it seems that you can kind of identify 713 01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:14.880 and I wonder if this is accurate that you've kind of taken a different approach 714 01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:20.880 in that you have chosen to more since your media savvy person kind of greece 715 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:26.800 the wills in the public arena more so go public to talk about the credibility 716 01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:31.079 of different cases and of the mystery, as opposed to working behind the scenes 717 01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:39.480 to kind of greece the very slow wills of bureaucracy. I've done a bit 718 01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:44.320 of both. I certainly have, particularly in the early days, did a 719 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:51.639 lot of kind of behind the scenes work that can probably never be be publicized, 720 01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:58.079 and that has played out in things like the declassification and release of the 721 01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:03.559 mods UFO files and a number of other things. I have an advantage over 722 01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:10.360 Lou on this, and that is the fact that the British government has now 723 01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:14.960 declassified and released most of its files, not all, but most, And 724 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:20.199 because I've got sixty thousand pages with the documents that my former bosses put out 725 01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:24.920 there, many of which I wrote, I have a little bit more leeway, 726 01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:29.559 I guess, to speak publicly about this. Lou has really only got 727 01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:32.639 like a handful of documents that are out there and has to be more careful. 728 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:40.840 So I think when, if, and when the DoD and the DIA 729 01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:45.679 release more a tip paperwork, I think and I fully hope that we will 730 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:50.760 see and hear more of Lou as he is more able to speak out about 731 01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:54.119 this. But I think it goes back to this point. You know, 732 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:58.679 he's careful, he's loyal, he's patriotic, he's not going to speak about 733 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.480 documents that aren't out there yet. So that's that's why I think there's a 734 01:07:01.719 --> 01:07:05.559 there's a difference between him and I at the moment, right, and that 735 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:09.719 makes a lot of sense. And it goes back to kind of the other 736 01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.960 thing we talked about, where we don't have much in the way of official 737 01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:18.920 information about the program, and even he's careful to speak about leaked documents because 738 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:24.079 leaked, of course, is not something that's officially released, because really we 739 01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:30.920 have nothing regarding any of their UFO work except for a leaked document that's sort 740 01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:34.440 of an analysis of the Knimt situation. But of course Lou is careful to 741 01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:40.920 speak to that because it is a leaked document, although you know, Fravor 742 01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:45.039 and others have confirmed that it is accurate, so we but we still have 743 01:07:45.239 --> 01:07:49.880 no idea about any of the other cases that they've looked into, and Lou 744 01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:55.280 says there's some extraordinary stuff. He's even said there's some better stuff than nim 745 01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:59.960 It. So there's still a lot more to be discovered, hopefully absolutely, 746 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:04.280 and there are still in the system. Let's not forget. I think over 747 01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:12.280 three thousand Freedom of Information Act requests relating to a TIP, and those aren't 748 01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:15.520 going to go away. I mean, we were able to get this letter 749 01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:19.600 to Congress simply because it was very high profile, and I think they had 750 01:08:19.600 --> 01:08:25.359 to fast track that because it was in the Congressional record. But from the 751 01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:30.760 day the New York Times ran that story, request after request after request went 752 01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:35.560 in. And although I've heard some suggestion that we maybe later this year or 753 01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:40.720 even twenty twenty or beyond, as I say, they haven't gone away. 754 01:08:40.840 --> 01:08:45.159 So I hope that we will. We will get more a TIP paperwork. 755 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:49.079 No program, looking at this, whatever it's nature, doesn't generate paperwork. 756 01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:56.680 And according to Lou, a TIP is still ongoing. And would it be 757 01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:01.159 true that because it is ongoing, that will kind of hamper our ability to 758 01:09:01.199 --> 01:09:08.720 get information out of it, since it's an ongoing concern. Yes, I 759 01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:12.319 think that's you know, that's part of it. I mean, of course, 760 01:09:12.359 --> 01:09:19.119 this is where there is a discrepancy or certainly disagreement, because Lou is 761 01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:24.680 very clear the program is extant. We were never stood down. When you 762 01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:30.600 look at some of the DoD statements they try to say, or that they 763 01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:35.159 imply at the very least that the plug was pulled on this, but that 764 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:41.199 may simply mean the funding plug. There are always when you investigate UFOs. 765 01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:46.960 Most of what you do doesn't need additional funds because all the things you need, 766 01:09:47.640 --> 01:09:54.199 like the military radar system, like the imagery analysis resources and capabilities, 767 01:09:54.359 --> 01:09:59.520 they are already there. They are already funded. But yes, assuming that 768 01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:02.479 at or something like it, maybe it's changed names again to throw people off 769 01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:08.640 the trail, I wouldn't discount that. If it is still extant, then 770 01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:15.479 then yes, that makes disclosure more difficult. Well, I think that's we're 771 01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.119 out of time, and I thank you so much for coming on the time. 772 01:10:19.399 --> 01:10:24.960 Absolutely flew. I think that all of this is such important information in 773 01:10:25.039 --> 01:10:30.319 analyzing and understanding what's going on. So very very many thanks for your efforts 774 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:36.680 to get this documentation to the public quickly and for analyzing it and sharing your 775 01:10:36.720 --> 01:10:42.279 expert opinion. Thank you very much. Thank you so much to Nick Pope 776 01:10:42.279 --> 01:10:45.680 for joining us on the show. You can just google Nick to find his 777 01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:49.439 website and he's got lots of great stuff there. I would highly highly recommend 778 01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:54.439 it. It's wonderful that he's out there doing things like talking to Fox News 779 01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:58.399 and they take him so seriously, as they should, because it's rare, 780 01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:00.079 you know, to have an opportunity. I need to talk to somebody in 781 01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:05.119 the government who actually investigated UFOs. Of course, in this case, as 782 01:11:05.159 --> 01:11:11.159 you can tell by his accent, Nick investigated UFOs with the UK government, 783 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:15.239 the Ministry of Defense, which always kind of makes me chuckle, makes me 784 01:11:15.279 --> 01:11:18.640 think of the Ministry of Magic. But that's what's exciting about all of this. 785 01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:23.079 If you listen to lou Elizondo and what they've been up to, it 786 01:11:23.159 --> 01:11:27.359 is kind of technology so advanced it's almost magical that they believe that they've been 787 01:11:27.399 --> 01:11:32.319 able to witness when they're observing these unidentified objects. And certainly that list that 788 01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:39.039 Nick just talked about includes some really strange stuff, some magical science that he's 789 01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:43.640 going on in this field. So it is all very very exciting, and 790 01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:47.920 I think it's great that we have him as a resource. And unfortunately, 791 01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:50.960 I really think this is an area we should all be paying a lot more 792 01:11:51.079 --> 01:11:58.000 attention to because there's going to be a lot more very interesting revelations I think 793 01:11:58.039 --> 01:12:00.520 coming forward. And the guy in the middle all of all these revelations is 794 01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:05.840 mister lou Elizondo. We'll have him on the podcast soon. We've got other 795 01:12:05.960 --> 01:12:11.119 great shows coming up, so stay tuned. Be sure to follow me on 796 01:12:11.520 --> 01:12:15.000 social media and our Open Mind social media because I'm sharing updates on everything on 797 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:19.560 a regular basis. I also have a blog, Alejandro t Rojas dot com 798 01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:25.039 that I've started where I'm gonna be posting everything that I write about from space 799 01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:29.359 to UFOs, so you can find it all in one place. Another great 800 01:12:29.399 --> 01:12:34.479 outlet for UFOs is the International UFO Congress, so Ufocongress dot com. There 801 01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:41.319 is a blog and we've been more active in putting information on that blog at 802 01:12:41.439 --> 01:12:46.760 Ufocongress dot com, and of course there's super cool new products there all of 803 01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:50.479 the time. We've got a lot of really exciting stuff going on with the 804 01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:56.760 Congress, not just related to the next event, but also our store and 805 01:12:56.960 --> 01:13:00.760 other really cool stuff that we've been involved with. So lots going on there. 806 01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:05.119 Please do check them out on social media, and you can of course 807 01:13:05.159 --> 01:13:10.359 see me retweet and reshare a lot of that stuff as well if you're looking 808 01:13:10.399 --> 01:13:14.840 for where to find that, but it's pretty easy. You search UFO conference, 809 01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:17.479 and you're going to find us because we're the biggest deal in town when 810 01:13:17.479 --> 01:13:21.760 it comes to UFO conferences, and you'll see why, especially that we're going 811 01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:26.800 to stay in that listing as the number one once you see the speakers that 812 01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:29.960 will have up and we'll have some of those listed in the next month or 813 01:13:30.039 --> 01:13:34.600 so. So very exciting stuff going on. Stay tuned. Thank you so 814 01:13:34.680 --> 01:13:39.079 much to Martin for joining us with the news at the beginning of the show. 815 01:13:39.399 --> 01:13:44.439 I also want to thank the people up at Big Bear Alien Snowfest UFO 816 01:13:44.479 --> 01:13:46.800 congresses out there was a lot of fun. You'll also be able to see 817 01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:51.239 us at the Conscious Life Expo in just a couple of weeks. We'll have 818 01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:55.600 a booth out there with lots of our cool stuff, and any of you 819 01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:59.680 listeners who want to come out, or maybe who are regulars because they get 820 01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:02.000 so many many people to that thing, come and say hi. I'll be 821 01:14:02.079 --> 01:14:06.039 there working at the table with Karen, so come say hi to us and 822 01:14:06.520 --> 01:14:12.560 check out what we got. Otherwise, I want to say thanks to Caleb 823 01:14:12.600 --> 01:14:15.359 Hanks, who creates the opening and close music. A lot of people ask 824 01:14:15.479 --> 01:14:19.239 me, what's that cool music? That's Caleb Hanks At the open Mind GUFO 825 01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:24.840 radio page on the open Mind's website you can see a link. Otherwise, 826 01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:28.479 you can just google Caleb Hanks and you'll find him on Patreon, where he's 827 01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:31.000 sharing a lot of his cool music on a regular basics, so check that 828 01:14:31.079 --> 01:14:35.000 out. Also, thank you to Systematics for the bumper music, and of 829 01:14:35.039 --> 01:14:40.960 course, as usual, thank you the listeners for being here every week. 830 01:14:41.279 --> 01:14:45.159 It's a pleasure to be able to talk to you and share this great information. 831 01:14:45.800 --> 01:15:35.199 Until next time, Audios, mood Tuchos. You must