WEBVTT 1 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:30.160 Hello, and welcome to episode number one hundred and thirty five of the Cheese 2 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:33.560 Stakes to Get Charis podcast presided by fox PHL The Gambler, one of two 3 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:38.840 point five FM fourteen eighty AM iHeartRadio where wherever you get your podcasts, you 4 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:42.560 can download this show and listen to it. My name is Jason Finnelli and 5 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:47.119 I am the Esports and Game Againstider four fox PHL The Gambler, And after 6 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:51.439 our special episode earlier this week with Megacat Studios and those fine folks talking about 7 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:57.359 Russell Quest, we have yet another fun interview segment for you. This episode 8 00:00:57.399 --> 00:01:03.239 one major talk with one developer from a game or sorry, the representative from 9 00:01:03.239 --> 00:01:07.280 another studio doing a really really cool project that I am very excited to present 10 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:11.959 to you right now, so today on She Steaks and Controller's episode number one 11 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.519 hundred and thirty five. Very excited for multiple reasons. If you remember, 12 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:22.239 is past November, I had the honor of reviewing Atari fifty for the switch 13 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.439 I played it for for Game Informer Online, not their magazine online. That 14 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:32.200 was made by Digital Eclipse, who has taken it upon themselves to turn their 15 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:37.400 products into digital museums, which I really appreciate they started with Atari, but 16 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:42.480 now they're getting a little a little more focused, a little more. They're 17 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:47.519 gonna spotlight one game as opposed to an entire company, that game being Karatica, 18 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:52.519 which or Kara Taka. However, we've tried talking about pronouncing it, 19 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.319 and I still got it wrong. But either way, I had the editorial 20 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.599 director of Digital Eclipse here, Chris Kohler. We're going to talk about this 21 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.840 project, and I am very excited to do so. Chris, how are 22 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:05.319 you today? Very good? Thank you for having me. Thank you for 23 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.080 that review of Atari fifty. We really appreciated that. UM. Thank you 24 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:14.319 for checking on the pronunciation of of Kronica and everything. It's you know, 25 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:16.639 as you know, we we address it in the product. There is a 26 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:23.120 video actually in the interactive documentary The Making of Karnica U, in which you 27 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.520 know I pronounced I mean I speak Japanese. You know, a Japanese would 28 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:30.080 be like Catica. Uh Um, I say Karatica in English, you know, 29 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:32.240 giving a little bit more rum, just because that's sort of what's natural 30 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:36.639 in English. Um. Jordan Mechner, who created a game in the ninteen 31 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:38.879 eighties, didn't know Japanese and you know, it's not like it's just nineteen 32 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.120 eighty four. He get just put on put on YouTube to find out how 33 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:46.639 to pronounce it. He always said karataka. Um, some people say karatcha, 34 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:50.240 and really it's just like just just pronounce it how you want. At 35 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.240 this point, it's like it's it's you know, it's just gonna be impossible 36 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:59.439 to get everybody to agree and the and it's like ultimately we're all varying degrees 37 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:04.360 of off of what the original Japanese pronunciation is going to be because that sound 38 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:08.800 that stop just doesn't exist in English. So just just forget it. It's 39 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:14.520 fine now. And it's amazing what one two letters in one syllable will do. 40 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:16.919 If you just take away the car and it's karate or karate, people 41 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.960 have way less trouble with it. But I imagine that was already copyrighted back 42 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.280 in the age exactly exactly, yeah and right, And I tend to say 43 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.080 like more like, you know, I grew up you know, calling you 44 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:30.960 know karate, you know, and it's there's it's not there's no raw and 45 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:35.120 there's no tea in there either. It's caught up, you know, the 46 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:38.240 empty hand right, So it's like, I don't know, it's just at 47 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:42.759 this point it's been forty years and you know, we're no closer to a 48 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.680 cure. Yeah, I understand. The Japanese language is a very complicated thing. 49 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.800 I'm actually teaching myself right now thanks to that green owl on Duo Lingo, 50 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:53.560 slowly getting through it, and it is quite a challenge, but a 51 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:58.840 good one. I do appreciate it. So my first question about insert pronunciation 52 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:03.800 of game here. What so you went from Atari fifty and that entire history 53 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:09.560 of a major company, fifty years of research and prototypes and design docs and 54 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:15.560 all this to one single game two years worth of whatever Jordan had worked with 55 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:19.519 at the time. So my first question is a simple one. Why this 56 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.879 game? Why Kara? What was the reason for this to be the first 57 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:29.519 time you try the single game documentary as opposed to the company wide doc. 58 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:31.519 Well, the funny thing is, and you would have no way of knowing 59 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:33.519 this, of course, but I will tell you, is that really we 60 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.439 went from Karatica to Atari fifty in that when I started working at Digital Eclipse 61 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.560 in twenty twenty, the first thing that I was put on was this project 62 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.000 that was that had been going for a little while called the Making of Karnica, 63 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.959 and I kind of came in. The people who've been doing creative on 64 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:54.639 it were both gone at that point, and so nobody was you know, 65 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:59.199 nobody was in had the reins creatively, and I looked at where that project 66 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.000 was and I was like, you know, I kind of I took a 67 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.800 step back and I started doing I kind of started doing the research from zero 68 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:10.800 again because I was like, I don't want to base my decisions here on 69 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.879 what's already in this this sort of like early early version of the product. 70 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.480 I want to go do the research again. So it's like, Jordan, 71 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:23.360 the thing that makes Chronica so perfect. There's a lot of things that make 72 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:27.040 Charnica perfect, and I will get to this to answer your question. One 73 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:30.480 of the things that makes it perfect is that Jordan Mechner was a total like 74 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:36.439 documentarian himself and a pack rat who saved absolutely everything. So as he was 75 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.879 going along in college, like freshman year of college, he was making this 76 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.920 game as a freshman at Yale University. That's when he started. In nineteen 77 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.360 eighty three is when he started on this. Okay, he was writing a 78 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:53.639 journal, a daily journal, that he kept up that he's actually kept up 79 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:57.560 through his whole life. And he started writing a journal around that time and 80 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:02.600 daily documented the process, everything that he was doing in at college, but 81 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:08.319 also everything he worked on on that game. And so we had something that 82 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.519 very few people have if you're trying to look at the history of how a 83 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:16.639 game was developed, a daily log of everything that he was doing. Not 84 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:23.199 only that, but you know what he was feeling he was doing it, 85 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.160 you know, So all of his teenage angst is right there on the page. 86 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.800 And Jordan has published those journals and you can you can buy those and 87 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:35.079 read them right now. And then additionally, he did all of his designing 88 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:39.920 like on paper, and he saved all the paper, and so all the 89 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.920 paper, all of the design documents for Krotica, just just stacks and stacks 90 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.160 of stuff is all in the care of the Strong Museum of Play in Rochester, 91 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.519 New York, who we kind of basically partnered with to put this out. 92 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:56.120 They gave us access to all the Jordan's materials and were extremely helpful. 93 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.519 So basically at that point I go back and I'm like, okay, I'm 94 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.160 gonna read Jordan's journals. Of course from start to finish, I'm going to 95 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:08.839 um go to the strong and you know, redo the research and say, 96 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.959 what do you guys have. I want to make absolutely sure that we have 97 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.680 everything pertaining to Karnica. Found a bunch more stuff, found a lot of 98 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.399 Chronica stuff in the Prince of Persia folders where it had been you know, 99 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:27.560 sort of accidentally missorted, and start to realize that there is a way to 100 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:32.439 tell this story, Like there's so much information journals and design documents, and 101 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.920 then then we start looking at the contents of Jordan's floppy discs because those had 102 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:45.360 been preserved about ten years ago and by Jason Scott and the Internet archive folks, 103 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.439 and they had like gotten all of Jordan's floppies and you know, done 104 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:53.639 like very expert level stuff to try to get as much data as they could 105 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:59.360 off of the shoebox full of floppy discs. And so there were like graphics, 106 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.560 cut content and things like that or like in development versions of Kerotica, 107 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:09.680 so we had as much It's like no other game from nineteen eighty four is 108 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:16.240 this well documented, unless I mean there's probably like there's probably something similar for 109 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.040 like Super Mario Brothers, but it's in a vault Nintendo and we'll never see 110 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.959 it, you know what I mean. But Miamoto wasn't writing a diary, 111 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:30.920 nope. So by taking all these parts, this was the This was the 112 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:33.759 fun as a former journalist, you know what I mean, Like, this 113 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.840 was the fun part. Because now I've got a diary in which he explains 114 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.399 what he was doing that day. I've got images off with floppy disk, 115 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.480 and I've got scans of paper documents and he can start connecting the dots and 116 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.600 matching that stuff up. So now, as opposed to a typical collection where 117 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.279 it's sort of like, here's a design document, I can say, here's 118 00:08:54.320 --> 00:09:00.720 the design document, here's what Jordan said when he was writing this, here's 119 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.320 what came out of it as an original, you know, or as a 120 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:09.120 sprite on his floppy disc, and show all of those things together and lay 121 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:16.679 it out all chronologically. So from a content perspective, Keronica has enough supporting 122 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:22.840 content to let us do and Atari fifty size is essentially it's the same thing 123 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:28.519 as Atari fifty where we've got five you know, chapters essentially that you can 124 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.799 go through. It just gives us the ability to do that as as and 125 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.480 then as far as the game itself, one of the things that we want 126 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.480 to do with the gold Master series, which is this line of independently produced, 127 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:46.440 self published, interactive documentary style games, is um, you know, 128 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:48.639 we want to tell some of these stories of video game history that aren't being 129 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:52.559 told. And one of the stories that's always told about video game history, 130 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.960 and I'm guilty of this myself, is this idea of like there was Atari 131 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.879 and then Atari die and the video game industry crashed and there was this black 132 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:07.480 hole, and then Nintendo came riding in on a white horse and saved video 133 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:11.799 games, you know, and that's like, there is something to be said 134 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:18.799 for that in terms of the game console business in America, right, But 135 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.639 that's but that's it right on. First of all, for the rest of 136 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:28.200 the world, that's not the case, and certainly on personal computers, you 137 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.399 know, that's where gaming kind of shifted to and we just don't hear about 138 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:37.320 these stories. And Jordan Meckner's Coronica was a profoundly influential game when it came 139 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.240 out in nineteen eighty four, in the middle of what some people just sort 140 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.399 of consider the nothing time. It came out in eighty four, it sold 141 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.559 a ton of copies, and importantly, it made so many innovations in terms 142 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:56.759 of the way that video games had presented cinematic scenes or cut scenes animation. 143 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:03.080 Jordan used rhodoscoping okay to achieve lifelike animation inside of this game. In terms 144 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:07.919 of soundtrack, Jordan's dad, Francis Mechner, who is sort of one of 145 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.879 the heroes of our story, was a classical pianist as a hobby, and 146 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:18.360 he composed the soundtrack in an era where games certainly on the Apple too and 147 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.879 on most other platforms, really didn't have music scoring them. And but he 148 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:26.440 did in a really smart way because he used this life motif approach for every 149 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.679 character, every emotion, every setting had its own little stinger of music. 150 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.200 So that lifted the emotional kind of, you know, m weight of the 151 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:43.159 story as well. And so Keronica makes all these cool innovations and it feels 152 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:48.120 like a little movie. Basically. That's how players perceive it is the first 153 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.639 time they're playing a game on their computer that really felt like they're like the 154 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.759 hero of an action movie. And that was so profound and it inspired a 155 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:01.120 generation of game designers we have. We went out to people like Tom Hall, 156 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:05.480 the co founder of ID Software. Uh. John Tobias, the co 157 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.840 creator of Mortal Kombat, is in this um and they're in this discussing like 158 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:15.440 how profound an impact you know, Coronica had on them, And we can 159 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:20.000 in that way connect the dots and show um why this game, which was, 160 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:20.679 by the way, you know, as I've kind of alluded to, 161 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.799 is the debut the directorial debut title of Jordan mcner, who would go on 162 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.080 to create Prince of Persia series. Prince of Persia stands the time Prince of 163 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.879 Persia, the Hollywood film you know, Um, Coronica was like this um 164 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:37.480 little um, like little egg, you know, this little sort of like 165 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:41.399 the tiny seed from which Prince of Persia would grow. Um. And so 166 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:43.480 it's important to look at it that way as well. And so as far 167 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.120 as it's importance to the industry, as far as it being a story that 168 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.840 has not really been told, as far as it being an amazing story, 169 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.080 it's a there's a wonderful father son story at the core of this whole thing, 170 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.159 because you know, Francis Machner not only did he dad, he's the 171 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.039 dad of the year, Like not did he compose the soundtrack to his son's 172 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.840 game, you know, support his his teenage son in any way that he 173 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:09.519 could to make this game amazing. When Jordan wanted to rhodoscope somebody, his 174 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:15.399 father put on his wife's karate outfit and went out into the woods behind their 175 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.639 house in upstate New York and ran around in this karate outfit while Jordan filmed 176 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.399 him with a Super eight camera and captured his dad's running and jumping and climbing 177 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:31.159 motions and then rotascoped them into Karatica. And so when you see the Karatica 178 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:35.080 running around, he wrote a scope two people. His his mom's karate teacher 179 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.200 for all the karate moves, and then his dad for all of the ancillary 180 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.480 stuff like running and climbing and things like that, the non martial arts moves. 181 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.480 And that makes the two of them tied for being essentially the first like 182 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.480 mocap actors ever in a video game. And again it's his untold story that, 183 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.039 like, you know, Francis mcner is this like unsung hero of video 184 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.200 games. For all the work that he did on this, you don't really 185 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:58.799 hear about him. And so we want to make we want to get that 186 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:03.000 story out there. So it's a story that we're passionate about telling. It's 187 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.879 a really important game. It's a story where we have all the ability to 188 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.559 do it, and so um we had to. I was working on this 189 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.120 and we had to shelve it for a while because so many other big projects 190 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.639 coming in that needed all hands on deck. I was working on this before 191 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.879 we signed Blizzard Arcade Collection. So it was this, It was this lightning 192 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.879 rapid like you know, Blizzard Arcade Collection comes in, needs you on that 193 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.120 teenage Mutan Nincha Turtles, the Calbunga Collection, We need you on that. 194 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:35.559 We actually, after Kalbunga Collection, we'd like had a kickoff meeting for Corotica 195 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.960 to get it going again. And while that was happening, like, we 196 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:45.799 signed Atari fifty and Atari fifty was just this great opportunity though, because Atari 197 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.840 needed something different and we're like, you know what, We've we've got this 198 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:54.679 interactive documentary approach that we've been workshopping internally that we've been designing Corotica to that, 199 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.879 and so we were able to put the brakes on everything else get Atar 200 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:01.720 fifty out the door in like record time because we had to do it for 201 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:07.240 the Atari fifty ten overs re year um. And then once that was done, 202 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.720 finally had the time and the bandwidth to go back. Uh. And 203 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.320 and not only the Karatica, but other stuff that's coming up later in the 204 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.399 gold Master series that we're working on now. UM so yes, um yeah, 205 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.360 it's a series. We've announced it a series, um and so and 206 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.559 so that's happening. So I hope that gives you a little bit of insight 207 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.039 into why it's that game. Now. This is not to say, like 208 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.720 other stuff in the gold Master series might be um, a bunch of games. 209 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.960 It might be one developer, it might be one company, you know, 210 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:37.639 going on. It's not necessarily this could be one game. But in 211 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.440 this case, you know, it's it's like it's um, it's it's really 212 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:46.080 all. And the thing is, there's actually fourteen games in the making of 213 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.639 Chronica, because there's Karatica for the Apple two, which was what Jordan created. 214 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:54.879 There's the ports to the Commodore sixty four and the Atari eight hundred. 215 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.840 Um. We even speak with in the video in the video sections of the 216 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.360 cook who actually did the conversion programming for the Atari and the Commodore versions. 217 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:07.720 So we get into the details of like what was that, like, you 218 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.600 know, what's it like to support something from He's one very very different platform 219 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:18.279 to another. Right, you have Jordan's original game shooter that he made called 220 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.639 Death Bounce, which is what he was trying to pitch before Karnica that got 221 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.960 canceled, but it's in four different prototypes of that are in the game, 222 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.919 several prototypes of Karnica, and even Asteroid Blaster, which was basically like Jordan 223 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:36.440 cloning asteroids, that's in it too. So across all of these things, 224 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:41.159 we've got fourteen different playable games in various stages of production. And again, 225 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.919 like Autari fifty, as you go through the timelines, when those versions come 226 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:49.960 up, you have the chance to play them, and you have the chance 227 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:53.120 to check them out and then go back to the timeline and resume your sort 228 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:56.759 of historical journey through the documentary. So that actually answers a question that I 229 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:02.840 had on the pace. So with Atari fifty, you're going through the history 230 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:07.119 of the company and you just put in the full games that they you're talking 231 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.279 about in that particular, you know, year here with one game, are 232 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.680 you breaking up the game into sections and they play those sections or do they 233 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.319 play the whole thing and then get the history. But if it's now like 234 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.960 fourteen different prototypes and the full games and stuff like that, it kind of 235 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.359 makes more sense in my head as to house. Yeah, I mean, 236 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.240 I think it's just important to note here that like you as the player, 237 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:34.680 have the option to dive into one of these deeper sort of segments that you 238 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.079 know, just as if you were at a museum, you know, and 239 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.960 you're going through the museum. You could either start at the beginning of the 240 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.759 museum exhibit and just walk really fast through everything and just look at things that 241 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:48.000 interest you and then be done. Or you can spend all day in there 242 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.160 and just start at the beginning to exhibit and then just go from you know, 243 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.160 station to station, and if there's an interactive part of that, you 244 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.880 can stay there and interact with it and exhaust all of the utility out of 245 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.640 that before you move on to the next part of the museum. Depends on 246 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:06.599 how you're feeling that day and just how deeply interested you are. So if 247 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:07.920 you just want to kind of quickly go through the story, you can do 248 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.759 that. But if you want to stop and play a game for a while, 249 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.200 you know, you can do that. As well, and you just 250 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.119 nothing is a lott you know what I mean. You just have the freedom 251 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.079 to just go where you want to go. We'll try to guide you to 252 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.039 what's next chronologically, but you have this choice, like do you want to 253 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.799 play Jordan's Asteroids clone? Um, we even have watch mode for all of 254 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.319 the games, so it's like, if you just want to watch a little 255 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.880 playthrough of somebody playing Asteroids, you know, do that we don't and that 256 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:36.880 gets even that's that's even more important. You're talking about the game like Kronica, 257 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.559 which is actually kind of difficult, So it's like, if you just 258 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:41.880 want to watch somebody play You even have chapter select in the watch mode, 259 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.039 so if you want to just jump to a certain part of the game and 260 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.079 check that out, you know, you have the option to do that as 261 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.880 well. Um And for the Apple two version of Kronica, we have director's 262 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:56.920 commentary on the watch mode, so you can watch somebody play through Jordan's original 263 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:03.079 version um while you listen to Jordan Nor and Francis mcner um talk about extemporaneously 264 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.119 to sort of talk about the various things that you're seeing and the little bit 265 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.079 of the behind the scenes of how that was put together. That's awesome. 266 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.960 Um, I'm wondering, is he like reading through his journals and remembering his 267 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.839 angsty moments as he's going through these or is he just kind of talking about 268 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.039 what he was doing at the time he is reacting to what's going on on 269 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.279 the screen. Basically what we you know, we we had once we got 270 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.599 the playthrough and we knew that that was going to be that, you know, 271 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.440 we had to do it in order, right. It's like, the 272 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.200 playthrough is not just a video, it's it's actually like an It's uses emulator 273 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.720 save states because you can you can jump into the playthrough at anytime and start 274 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.000 playing. That's why the chapter select allows you to say, I want to 275 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.839 practice that fight against the bird, just jump right to it and then jump 276 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.519 in and start playing. So it's cool chapter select. Um. So we 277 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:52.960 had to make sure that that was one hundred percent done before we went to 278 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.640 Jordan and Francis and actually visited them in New York City in April. Um, 279 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.559 so it wasn't that long ago and just uh sat them down with the 280 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:07.119 demo, played the watch mode set up like my phone and just recorded them. 281 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.519 Um. It was a very ad hoc thing because we weren't really sure 282 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.240 if we were going to be able to get them, you know, because 283 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:12.559 it was so late in the process. But it was like, we have 284 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.839 you here, let's do this, um and so, and it one up 285 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.839 being very insightful. It was just it was one take, totally just you 286 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.599 know, off the cuff. But it's but it's really brilliant. It's really 287 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.240 fun to listen to. That's cool. And we mentioned we talked to a 288 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.200 little bit earlier about Prince of Persia and how this game kind of set the 289 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.680 table for that. Uh is that reference In the latter half of the timeline 290 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.119 documentary portion, do you get into like what parts of Karatica became part of 291 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.519 Prince of Persia formula and how that's how that flow works. Yeah. So 292 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.240 after Karatica, you know, it was a big success, and you know, 293 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.559 Jordan and his publisher were both like, we got to do Karatica two. 294 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.960 So Jordan starts messing with new designs and things like that, and he 295 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.279 was inspired, as you'll see because there's an entire chapter that's just called Karatica 296 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:02.039 two U. He was fired by games like there's a broader run game called 297 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.880 the Castles of Doctor Creep, which was like a more like um it had 298 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:08.960 more like traps and platform kind of stuff, and he was thinking, gee, 299 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.319 I'd like to do something like that. So we actually have a lot 300 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.880 of screenshots of in you know, sort of in progress stuff where he was 301 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:22.759 working on a more platform type Karatica game. He was using the Karatica characters. 302 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.559 He was thinking maybe Princess Mariko would be playable this time, and story 303 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.920 treatments and stuff like that. Um, but the game you kind of see 304 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.559 it like once you get to the final like you know, mock up of 305 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:40.079 Karataka two, it starts to look a lot like Prince of Persia, not 306 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.440 in terms of the character designs, but in terms of you know, the 307 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:47.559 traps and doors and things like that. And that's kind of where we stop, 308 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.559 and we're like, you know, at past this point, it became 309 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.240 a new project, you know, which was originally called Bagdad and that became 310 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.359 so we stopped there, and uh, you know that, you know, 311 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.599 I don't want to say too we continued because we don't have the rights to 312 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.119 do diversion, but it's like, but the story goes on from there, 313 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.920 yeah, right, and then people can do their own research and filling exactly 314 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.079 from there. Yeah, so you talked about also the black hole in the 315 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.559 gaming industry that was filled by Apple two, which is what this was developed 316 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.720 on. Do you take some time to go through that platform as a development 317 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.960 platform? To you to repeat myself, do you go into like the technology 318 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.119 of the Apple two and what was used to make this game as you did 319 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:37.359 with the Atari consoles in fifty, not super deeply, we do, you 320 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.400 know, in these interactive documentaries, as we do with with Atari fifty. 321 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:42.599 You know, we want to make sure that we're not just sort of taking 322 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:47.079 the game ram and just sort of plunking it down their right context. So 323 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.759 we do want to make sure that, yes, people understand like what's the 324 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.559 difference between these platforms. So yeah, as you're going through the timeline, 325 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.680 so as we get to the introduction of like the Apple two or the Commodo 326 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.759 sixty before the Atari, you know, we talked a little bit about well, 327 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.599 when was that released, what were its strengths? You know, so 328 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:07.160 we talk a bit about that. You will glean some of that, especially 329 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:11.079 from a lot of Jordan's commentary about the Apple two and what it was capable 330 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.160 of, what the Commodore and the Atari were capable of versus that when we 331 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.000 start talking about ports, there is, but ultimately it's kind of out of 332 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:23.279 scope to really start getting into, like, you know, the nitty gritty 333 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.880 of the how the Apple two works, even though it is very interesting and 334 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:33.319 to understand that platform does help you understand like why does Chronica look like that? 335 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.839 Why does it use those colors? Well, the Apple two could only 336 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.599 generate, like you know this, this small handful of colors, so every 337 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:44.720 game has that orange blue kind of aesthetic interest. And the interesting thing about 338 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.960 that that I found out as I was doing this is that, um, 339 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:53.359 the Apple two doesn't have color hardware. Steve wazni Acc basically figured out a 340 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:59.599 way to use it. The Apple two. Technically the hardware could only do 341 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.799 like, um, you know, luminants basically like black and white, right, 342 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:11.759 but he figured out ways to send signals along that black and white pathway 343 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.480 basically to juice you know, your your monitor. You'd have to have color 344 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.079 monitor obviously, but he would get the monitor to be able to display those 345 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:26.960 colors um and and like if you it could only kind of display them in 346 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.960 certain areas. So if you shift a pixel over that was blue, it 347 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.880 becomes orange, you know what I mean. It's one of those things where 348 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.720 it's like that's what Apple two programmers had to figure out. It's like color 349 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.720 was not just put this color there, it was And that's why when you 350 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.039 look at Chronica and other Apple two games, you see like, um uh, 351 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.759 what seems to be like sloppiness of the colors. You know, you'll 352 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.839 see like something that's orange and it'll have like a blue pixel in there somewhere. 353 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.279 And that's literally just because the Apple two is doing color in a very 354 00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.440 strange way without color hardware. Um. So that's something that would be like 355 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.720 a little too much to include. Um, although it is a really interesting 356 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:10.920 story that is. Um maybe if there's ever a gold Gold Master Series on 357 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:12.480 the Apple too itself, it would be a good place to put that. 358 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.680 And you know, I think and that's a really good observation because it's like 359 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.480 with the Gold Master Series, like it doesn't necessarily have to be about like 360 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:22.839 a game or even games, you know what I mean, there could be 361 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.440 It's like it's it's and that's what's important to get across here is like we're 362 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:32.519 not like selling you Kerotica, No, like I don't want to sell you 363 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.160 like this just this game. Ram. This is about selling you the story, 364 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:40.839 the documentary, even if you don't, if you aren't really interested in 365 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.279 the game, that the pitch here is like the story is so interesting. 366 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:48.200 Yeah, that it's it's it's the meat. It actually is the core user 367 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:53.240 experience. So if someone were to come to you for a potential pitch in 368 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:57.960 this gold Master series, if you even accept them, what would be your 369 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.880 vironments would you? What would you and Digital Eclips want or need even in 370 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:10.319 order to even consider doing something like this for another project, whether it be 371 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:14.400 a single game or an old developer or even the platform. As we've talked 372 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.319 about, what sort of information and how much of it would you need in 373 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.240 order to have that jumping off point. I think ultimately we would just want 374 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:29.119 to make sure that it's something where there could be just a variety of different 375 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.279 things. I mean, maybe the game itself is so well known that people 376 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.119 are already so passionate about it that we'll just figure out what the story is 377 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.720 and tell that story. But if you were to come to us and say, 378 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:41.799 well, I've got this game and nobody's really heard of it, but 379 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.559 the story behind it is so fascinating. You know, I think we would 380 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:51.279 we would take that as a really interesting challenge of can we take something that's 381 00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:56.359 got no fan base whatsoever, but the story is so good that we think 382 00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:59.759 that if we get it out to people and put that context around it, 383 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.799 we will actually create fans of this game. Um, I think we would 384 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:08.559 like that challenge as well. So it's really just like I feel like everything 385 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.759 has a potential argument for it, you know, whether it was you know, 386 00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:17.680 you know, like whether whether it's it's already got fans, whether it 387 00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.319 doesn't have fans. But if there's a good story there, if there's a 388 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:25.039 story that we can tell, it's something I could think of at least two 389 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.000 or three different projects off the top of my head that I would love to 390 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:32.400 see get this treatment. But we can, uh, we can bypass that. 391 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:33.480 I don't want to. I don't want to start saying you should do 392 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.279 this, because that's I'm sure you get enough of that on social media and 393 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:38.359 stuff like that. It's not you know, ultimately, well, I mean, 394 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:44.519 we we do, and we like cards on the table. It's like 395 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:48.480 I like to hear like you should do this, especially when it's something that's 396 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.000 like on social media, and it's kind of quantifiable because ultimately, it's not 397 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.319 like we're sitting around with a big list of games and we're going, let's 398 00:27:56.319 --> 00:28:02.839 do yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's really trying to convince rights 399 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.640 holders to go in with us, you know, and take a chance on 400 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:08.039 us and do it this one. Um. And so if we have more 401 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:11.480 of a sense of what do people want, you know, that gives us 402 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:14.440 a little bit of ammo. That's like, oh, you know, we 403 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:15.920 have all you know, fans are asking for this, like this is what 404 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.079 we hear about a lot. So it's it's it's good to hear. But 405 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:23.599 also it's like, don't don't you know, mistake the process of um, 406 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.480 you know, we're we're just picking whatever we want. I wish maybe in 407 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:33.319 twenty years if we really establish ourselves people falling all over ourselves to you know, 408 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.240 get digital clips, to uh, you know, to include something in 409 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.920 the Gold Master series. But yeah, that would be yeah, that would 410 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.759 be awesome. Um. So I want to ask also, I know we 411 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:47.039 kind of touched on this a little bit, but did you find focusing on 412 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:51.119 the one story and the one game, even with the wealth of information that 413 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.160 you ended up finding from the museum up in Rochester. Did you find this 414 00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:59.720 to be a little more challenging to build enough of a story to get through 415 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.000 those five chapters as opposed to the first time you did this, where you 416 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:10.079 had fifty years of information to dig through. This one a little bit more 417 00:29:10.279 --> 00:29:14.720 focused. I'm just I'm just wondering how challenging it was for the team to 418 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.680 get that story. Did it become apparent like right from the jump? Um? 419 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.920 Yeah, I mean within like the first once I really started reading the 420 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.880 journals and once I really started looking at and asking because it really you my 421 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:30.880 first week or two with it at the company back in twenty twenty, because 422 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:34.960 literally this was what I was put on and I was just like, okay, 423 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:37.400 you know, let me get the information. Once you start looking at 424 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:41.480 it and realizing there's just so much there. But I think that you know, 425 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.359 I also had a twenty five year career in journalism prior to that, 426 00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:49.240 and I mean, so much of that is um, you know, there's 427 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.759 all this information out there. How do you perceive what's important? How do 428 00:29:52.799 --> 00:30:00.200 you start to see a story take shape in this sort of mass of of 429 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:06.680 seemingly unrelated events and so writing big magazine features, big five thousand word features. 430 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.200 You started to develop a little bit of a sense of oh, that 431 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:12.440 can go in, that can go in. That's important once you start connecting 432 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:15.839 the dots. I mean, I think that's that's that's kind of the big 433 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:21.559 thing. So maybe it's something that somebody without that experience might not have perceived. 434 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.160 But you know, in from my sense, it was like, yeah, 435 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:27.799 yeah, this this, I mean, there's a huge story to be 436 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.480 told here, and we just gotta you know, we just gotta put it 437 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:36.039 all together. Now. In retrospect, you mentioned that, UH, Karatica 438 00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:37.599 was actually supposed to be first, and then a Tori fifty kind of took 439 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:42.440 over in this documentary style format. Do you actually think that going through a 440 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:48.279 Tori first ultimately benefited Karatica as opposed to if you had launched them the other 441 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.839 way around? You do you feel that having going basically doing the trial run 442 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:56.759 with fifty years of Atari made this one even better in uh? In retrospect, 443 00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:00.039 yes, absolutely, yeah, one hundred percent, because there's there's so 444 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.160 much that, like you know again, like you know, Coronica was in 445 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.000 the works, but Atari, it's like we had a deadline and we had 446 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.640 to finish it. And finishing something is very important, you know, because 447 00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:12.960 you do ninety percent of the work and then after that you do the other 448 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.920 ninety percent of the work at the end. You know, it's like just 449 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:21.720 just getting something completely totally finished out the door. You know. It allowed 450 00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:27.039 us to really just like bang on a lot of our you know, initial 451 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.319 ideas and like preconceived notions and and really you know, test it out in 452 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.279 a product, and then of course it's very fortunate, you know, we 453 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:42.880 released Atari fifty. Reviews were very good, and importantly there was a lot 454 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:47.440 and there were a lot of people who thought what we were doing because as 455 00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:52.079 the first sort of test flight, it's like what if people don't understand this? 456 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.279 What if people hit start on Atari fifty and they're like, where are 457 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.759 my video games? What is all this stuff? You know? I mean 458 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.920 that could have happened and what is yeah, yeah, like where's asteroids? 459 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.480 I can't find asteroids? You know, um, And we did a lot 460 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:08.960 to make sure that both of those types of players. You know, if 461 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:13.400 you just wanted a list of games, we gave you a great games carousel 462 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.480 that you know, sorted and you know, had you know a lot of 463 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:21.000 information about each of those games to help you make that decision of what to 464 00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:22.799 play. But if you wanted to go through the timelines, that's your primary 465 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.519 kind of you know, user experience. You wanted to make sure that had 466 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:30.319 access to all of the games that way as well. Um, and the 467 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:34.400 fact that people picked up on it. Uh. And and you know what's 468 00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.519 interesting with Atari fifty is that, um, when Atar fifty was announced, 469 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.000 I think a lot of people paid it no attention and we're just like, 470 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.440 oh, it's another collection of Atari games. Okay, I don't and I 471 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.200 made that I will admit I made that assumption as well. Well. The 472 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.519 Game Informer review came a week or two later, I think, after the 473 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:57.200 lease, and you typically don't say that happened with IGN as well, and 474 00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.160 that happened with there wasn't a review, but that happened with Kotaku's coverage as 475 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.440 well. And I think that that's actually that's actually great because what it means 476 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.279 is it came out and there was this sense of oh, oops, like 477 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.599 we should have you know, we should have covered this. This is something 478 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.119 different, this is something unique. We actually need to go back. And 479 00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:22.000 you know it's not often that after that initial review cycle somebody's gonna go back, 480 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.599 you know, uh and and cover him. So it's it's wonderful that 481 00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:29.480 that happened because it really it made it very clear that people were picking up 482 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:32.759 on it. Oh, this actually is something different. And the benefit then 483 00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:37.799 to the Gold Master Series is now we're like, here's our next interactive documentary. 484 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:40.960 We've got tons of people already who are just like, oh, like 485 00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.519 Autari fifty, this is gonna be good. You know. So it really 486 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.680 that's that's that's very helpful. UM. You know, for for us, 487 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:52.640 we're launching the UM launching the indie thing. That's more of a risk, 488 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.400 where the risk is all on us, where it's where it's being announced, 489 00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:59.920 you know. Very fortunately we're really lucky, UM, very grateful to have 490 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:04.720 it announced on the ID Xbox showcase. That was definitely awesome, UM and 491 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:08.960 uh. But but still ultimately there's no big publisher here, like with a 492 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:14.519 big marketing machine. It's just falls to us UM. And so you know, 493 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.320 it's so it's so it's scary, UM, and it's risky, but 494 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:23.840 it is what we believe we need to do UM to treat you know this 495 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.360 these classic games which we believe are they're not just like old you know, 496 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.480 products that you sell in the bargain bin, Like, this is the foundational 497 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:36.360 art on which the video game media is based, and we believe we need 498 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.960 to treat them with more respect um and so this is a way that we're 499 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.719 trying to do that. Now you're you touched on something that I wanted to 500 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:47.360 make sure I asked you about. One of the last things we talked about, 501 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.800 because I imagine it's going to be a heavy topic here, and that 502 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:53.800 is preservation. Last last week, that report or two weeks ago, the 503 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:59.119 report came out that eighty seven percent of games ever released are no longer available 504 00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:04.679 in any platform. Blew my mind just because I assume that you could still 505 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.159 get some of the weird games that I played as a kid, because I 506 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.320 still have them, so people probably still have them. But no, a 507 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:14.440 lot of those games aren't available anymore. Did you see that and start to 508 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.039 think, Okay, maybe we're onto something with this Golden Master series. Maybe 509 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.559 we can bring that number down by getting some of these titles back out into 510 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:28.639 the forefront or the spotlight, even if it's a little spotlight like like Keronica. 511 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.559 As as great and foundational as it is, it like only for old 512 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.400 folks like me and you older folks, not old folks who have been playing 513 00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:39.239 games for a long time. We know about it, but but the youth 514 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:44.760 now won't until this. So do have you guys kind of like taken up 515 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.000 that mantle a little bit? Like all right, if there's a preservation issue 516 00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:50.679 and they're not going to do anything about it, if they'll partner with us, 517 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.719 we'll do it. Yeah. So, I mean we believe there's a 518 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:57.559 role for everybody in all kinds of different organizations as far as game preservation. 519 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.519 You know, the Video Game History Foundation wants to make this extremely salient point 520 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:07.360 because they're arguing for um, you know, alterations to copyright laws essentially that 521 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:14.880 allow UM libraries and institutions to provide for video games remote access because ultimately it's 522 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:16.920 like eighty seven percent of games, um, you know, according to the 523 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:22.000 study, the only way that you can access them is either um A you 524 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:28.920 know, piracy or B you just can't. And so if if library it's 525 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.000 just simply can't do it. I mean there's there's games. Look, if 526 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.800 you want to go pirate a laser active game, you can't do that, 527 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:37.639 Like you have to have a laser active, you know, set up. 528 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:43.679 But if libraries and institutions were able to set up and provide remote access for 529 00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:49.000 these things, then that would give researchers UM or quite frankly, not just 530 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.239 researchers, but just you know, everybody, the opportunity to play these things 531 00:36:53.440 --> 00:37:01.119 within a legal framework where they do not have to I mean it when we're 532 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:04.440 talking about UM. One of the other things that we want to do with 533 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:08.360 the Gold Master series is bring back computer games because a lot of times what 534 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:13.199 you see our collections of console games, but when you start looking at the 535 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.440 libraries of of computer games, you don't actually see personal computer games being brought 536 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:22.360 back as much, and you you don't see them on game consoles. Because 537 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:29.639 it's one thing to re release a computer game for a computer because Karnica, 538 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:34.519 you know, used keyboard controls, right, and you needed keyboard controls to 539 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.639 get through this. So what we're doing, and we have engineers essentially working 540 00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:40.800 on this for Karnica and for other stuff in the Gold Master series, it's 541 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:47.440 a big task, a big expensive engineering task. Have a highly paid engineer 542 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:57.480 sit down and spend days and weeks essentially taking computer games and bringing them up 543 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:01.239 so that you can use a console controller to interact with them. Uh, 544 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:06.440 and so with Keronica, it's like even if you wanted to just you know, 545 00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:09.880 pirate it, you know, you're still dealing with all of the intricacies 546 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:15.719 of like like it's it's like I I use emulators all but time and just 547 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.360 getting a computer game running and be like, okay, we get this Apple 548 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.199 two emulator. Okay, well how do I mount a disk image? You 549 00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:28.159 know? Once I do that, what do I have to type anything? 550 00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.599 I mean, god, you know I'm abusing like a you know, a 551 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.760 Commodo or sixty four emulator. It's like for for people who grew up with 552 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.880 Commodoor sixty four, they're like, oh yeah, type load Comma you know 553 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.280 as ampersand you know, so like you know all the stuff and you run 554 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.199 the and you and you then you run it. But it's like I don't 555 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.480 remember this. I have to go look it up, and I have to 556 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:50.719 go look this information up, and this information is on some forum posts like 557 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.840 there there there were times when I'm trying to emulate something and the answer is 558 00:38:53.960 --> 00:39:00.079 buried in some forum post from two thousand and eight, and it's like this 559 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:05.719 is not sustainable, No, can't keep doing this like. This is why 560 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:09.920 when the Video Game History Foundation points out these games are like critically endangered, 561 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:15.360 it is because all of the rigamar role that you have to go through and 562 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:22.960 this sort of fragile ecosystem of like homebrew hackers and pirates that are propping it 563 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:30.079 all up is it's it's it's it's not sustainable and it's disrespectful, and it's 564 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:35.480 something that you know, we should be working a lot harder to now from 565 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:40.159 the Digital Eclipse perspective, we can't save every game by putting out products like 566 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:45.199 this, you know, especially because look, we're making the making of Chronica, 567 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:50.760 but it's like when does our game become incompatible? You know, it's 568 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.360 like what happens twenty years from now, through no fault of our own, 569 00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:59.760 where if we can't go in because you know, what if the development in 570 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.840 froment for the making of Keronica gets deprecated decades down the line and we can't 571 00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:09.039 even update it anymore. What if the storefronts that it's available on all shut 572 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:14.960 down. You know, then either the way that somebody would access my creative 573 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.440 work would be through what would hope remote access via a library. I don't 574 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:24.280 want this to go away, But I understand that it will unless there's institutions 575 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:28.960 that are able to provide it to people, or they'll just pirate it, 576 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:32.639 you know. And so but from our perspective, you know, we all 577 00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:38.239 we can do is like the work of like we're what is it. It's 578 00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:42.599 like, you know, it's just it's a massive forests and we can save 579 00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:45.480 like one tree, you know what I mean, like by through doing this, 580 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:49.960 but I mean I think it's very what we're what we're doing ads to 581 00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.320 preservation absolutely, especially you know, even with like Ninja Turtles, the Cowbunga 582 00:40:54.360 --> 00:41:06.400 collection, thank you very much. And there's thousands of pages of design documents 583 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:13.840 from Konami's internal archives that now exist in extremely high quality you know, I 584 00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:17.519 think four K on some consoles, you know, digital form. Whereas in 585 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:22.960 the past, before we embarked on that project, they existed as a piece 586 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:29.719 of paper in a building in one of the countries that is beset by the 587 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:37.320 most natural disasters of any place on Earth. If if an earthquake didn't get 588 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.159 them, a typhoon was gonna get them, you know what I mean. 589 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:45.519 So it's like by doing the project and by having it because if somebody other 590 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:50.639 than Digital Eclipse had done a Turtle's you know collection for Konami, they might 591 00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.719 not have said, yeah, we want every document, you know, and 592 00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:58.400 people are just like, why is this collection? However many gigabytes it is, 593 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.360 it's just x number of ROMs, and it's like, no, because 594 00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:05.360 we successfully argued that it needs to be this, and so from a preservation 595 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.760 standpoint, we actually did do great work on that. And so that's the 596 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.559 same thing with you know, with you know, making a chronica and things 597 00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.840 far in the future is just getting those those physical documents, turning them into 598 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:17.800 digital documents that are now everywhere, you know, everybody has them, and 599 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:22.960 it helps preserve that information in a in a really substantial way. And so 600 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:28.760 we feel that pressure too. But then also we know that that bonus you 601 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:30.280 know, that what was considered, you know, you speak through the bonus 602 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:36.159 content. Really, for some people is the whole show right now? Do 603 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.000 you think, I mean, obviously game companies can be doing more to preserve 604 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.360 their own games. I don't. I don't think that's that's our opinion. 605 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:46.400 That's it's total, it's absolute fact. Would Digital Eclipse ever consider partnering with 606 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:50.480 a big publisher if for no other reason than to just show them how you 607 00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.840 do it. It's if you're not going to use us, at least let 608 00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:57.039 us show you what we're doing so that you can maybe do it yourself. 609 00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.360 We'd love to do it for you, but I see, yeah, I 610 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:02.119 mean, like you know, it's sort of a consulting sort of way. 611 00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:05.840 Yeah, you know, hit us up like we're we're down for We're down 612 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.880 for whatever, you know what I mean, Like we this is we're we're 613 00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:13.599 not like we're not like desperately, like we're not going to go out there 614 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.880 and be like you you may not, you know, do something this way. 615 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:22.280 If everybody, if everybody starts doing if everybody adopts our approach to uh 616 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:27.800 classic game or archival game releases, will feel very proud that we were able 617 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:31.360 to, you know, essentially flip the script and change the way to say 618 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:35.840 this is like it's a you know, it's it's our business, but it's 619 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:42.000 really it really, really is a cause that we all believe in, Like 620 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.880 we want to preserve video game history, want to do our part, and 621 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:51.480 we want to treat these things with the respect that they deserve. And if 622 00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:53.800 that gets other people doing that, great, If that gets other people saying, 623 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:58.320 oh geez, like Digital Clips is a really good job on these. 624 00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:00.840 We gotta hire them to do our next thing also wonderful, you know. 625 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:07.920 So yeah, now I'm wondering is there any and if you if you don't 626 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:12.119 want to answer this question for fear that people might think that you're working on 627 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.239 it, that's fine, But is there any older game that you would love, 628 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:17.880 like from your youth? But you're like, man, I haven't played 629 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:21.400 this in a really long time. I wonder if this is one. Like 630 00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:23.320 if you were the Twitter feed right right right, yeah, if you were 631 00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:27.639 the guy on Twitter saying, hey, Digital Eclipse do this, Yeah, 632 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:30.679 what would that be? Does? Okay? So does Shagara Miamoto listen to 633 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.840 your podcast? I had, I had, I had Reggie Feesam episode one 634 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:37.840 hundred. So maybe okay, okay, so maybe he does. Yeah, 635 00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.519 so Miamoto just call me. You know, you have my number. Um 636 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.960 No, I mean seriously, Like it sounds crazy, but like I will 637 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.760 say this all the time, like absolutely, Nintendo get in touch. You 638 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:54.960 know, like I think that what we do could actually compliment um, you 639 00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:00.239 know what they have as far as the the online subscription service. You know, 640 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:04.119 the context is not there. And the thing is, the pitch to 641 00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:08.679 publishers is really list Like, if you're just taking the games and putting the 642 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:14.000 games out, the audience that you have is gonna be people who are already 643 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:17.719 kind of like excited about those particular games. But it's like, we can 644 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.480 help create new fans. So if there's something that is dormant, you know, 645 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:28.400 by putting these things in their proper context, you know, by doing 646 00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:31.079 it, whether it's the interactive documentary format or whether it's something like cow bunga 647 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:35.599 collection, you know, but by putting this stuff in context and introducing it 648 00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:37.760 to new audiences. And like, one of the things we found with Atari 649 00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:42.519 fifty is that there were a lot of people who, just anecdotally on social 650 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.280 media or interviews would say things like, I don't really like Atari that much. 651 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:50.199 I've never been an Atari fan. I did not grow up with Atari. 652 00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:53.480 I've never been interested in it. But in going through the documentary and 653 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:58.320 learning about these games and learning about where they came from and why they were 654 00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.679 important and who worked hard on them, and learning what to look for when 655 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:07.679 I play these games, then after that, when I play the games, 656 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:15.480 I become more interested in them, and like that is that is the magic 657 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.760 of doing it this way, which is getting somebody who did not have any 658 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.280 interest and getting them to the point where where they do play that game. 659 00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:30.039 Suddenly now they're a fan of food Fight for the Atari XL or whatever it 660 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:34.239 is, you know, and so like that's what's so important about this and 661 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.719 so that's really my that's really my pitch to to, you know, to 662 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.320 publishers and like why you want to let us do it and why we want 663 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:43.719 to do it this way? Yeah, And which makes a lot of sense 664 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.119 because, like as you mentioned Nintendo, I could think of a ton of 665 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:50.719 games in their portfolio that I haven't seen the light of day in years that 666 00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:54.519 could really benefit from this sort of complimentary service. Like you're saying, Star 667 00:46:54.599 --> 00:47:00.320 Tropics is one that comes to mind immediately, right because nobody knows what that 668 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:04.480 is outside of like us and Eric Bailey on Twitter, who I talked to 669 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.440 every once in a while, he's always mentioning Star Tropics. That would be 670 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.840 a perfect idea. Every company has games like that that are deep buried in 671 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:16.440 their archives and haven't come out and forever even if at all, And I 672 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:21.159 just think there's a lot of merit to that not just in the preservation of 673 00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:23.159 what did come out, but also in the history of these companies that we 674 00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:27.159 may not know about. I feel like you might even have a possibility of 675 00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:31.920 and maybe you might not agree with this of a series where it's just all 676 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:37.639 unreleased games or all prototypes from a company that never saw the light of day 677 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.280 until now. And here's why here, you know, stuff like that. 678 00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:44.199 Would that be something that you guys would be interested into? Yeah, I 679 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.360 mean, I think again, like Coronica, is this really really great test 680 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.079 bed for so many things that we want to do because we haven't really even 681 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.719 gotten into a lot of this stuff about like you know, I mean, 682 00:47:53.719 --> 00:47:58.320 one of the other things that we do in making of Kronica is so we 683 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:02.800 knew that Jordan used rotoscoping. The Strong Museum had preserved and digitized that super 684 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:07.840 eighth film of his dad running around. We had all the steps in the 685 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:14.039 process because what he did was he he filmed his dad, He took the 686 00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:17.679 film with a movie editing device and then traced the frame onto a tracing paper, 687 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:21.519 and then he took a device called a versa writer, which was this 688 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:25.440 very very early like device with like a stylist for the Apple two, where 689 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:30.119 you had your stilus and the silus was attached to a mechanical arm basically like 690 00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:36.599 on a tablet, and you moved the mechanical arm around you're drawing, and 691 00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:39.719 it would start recreating that on the screen in front of you based on the 692 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:45.159 movements of the arm. And then he that's how he digitized all the frames. 693 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:52.760 It's an incredibly laborious like like process that took months. And then once 694 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:55.440 he had the digitized you know, versions of the tracing paper, was able 695 00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:00.320 to animate that and that's how he got like human animation. We have an 696 00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:06.880 interactive thing called Rotoscope Theater in which I went back and took that video, 697 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:14.039 found the exact frames from the video that he traced with tracing paper that he 698 00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:20.639 digitized. That became Chronica Man on screen and you can compare real life footage 699 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.920 of Francis Mechner with final in game sprite as if you're in like photoshop, 700 00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:29.599 lay them on top of each other and see how the real life maps to 701 00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:32.760 give and you do it in an interactive way, and so that's kind of 702 00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:37.320 like that's something else that we can do. So Chronica is like a test 703 00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.719 bed for a variety of different things. We have a fifteen minute audio only 704 00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:45.440 podcast in the middle of making of Coronica in which Kirk Hamilton's Yes m former 705 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:50.760 co worker does the Strong Songs podcast. He basically does a little mini Strong 706 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:55.440 Songs for the Chronica soundtrack and he and he just breaks it down as far 707 00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.639 as like this is why this music is so good, and so we're just 708 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:04.360 like we're putting everything in the kitchen sync into making a Chronica in terms of 709 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.159 weird while wacky ideas, you know, the director's commentary and all that kind 710 00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:13.480 of stuff to show like here's just here are just some ways you know that 711 00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:15.639 we can do this interactive documentary format. We can tell the story of this 712 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:22.440 game in a variety of different ways. And so going on in the process 713 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:27.400 in the future, it's like there's we'll come up with even more stuff than 714 00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.599 we can do and it'll all depend on The first step in this process is 715 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:36.679 well, what's out there? You know, like, what does the company 716 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.000 have internally? What can we go research and find on our own, And 717 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:45.840 then the shape of it sort of follows from the information that we have. 718 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:50.800 That's awesome. Do you hear? These are the lengths that these folks are 719 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.360 going to make sure that the history of video games is told in a way 720 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:59.280 that is scinct and informative and most of all, entertaining. And I have 721 00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:04.760 a feeling that the history of Karatica or Carroteca or whoever it's pronounced will be 722 00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:07.920 one that is told very effectively, just as Atari fifty was last year. 723 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.119 Chris Kohler, thank you so much for your time and your information, and 724 00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:16.559 the interview was great. I look forward to seeing the history of Carrotcha went 725 00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:22.519 making Karatica Whoa when it comes back, and I look forward to speaking to 726 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:27.719 you again soon when we're talking about the next great gold Master series from Digital 727 00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:30.480 Eclipse. Chris, thank you for your time, Thank you so much for 728 00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:32.239 having me. And with that, we are at the end of episode number 729 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:37.239 one hundred and thirty five of the Chief Stakes End Controllers podcast, as always 730 00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:40.400 presented by Fox PHL The Gambler one or two point five FM fourteen eighty AM 731 00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:44.519 and iHeartRadio. If you're listening to these words, you've gotten to the end 732 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:47.360 of the episode, and I very much appreciate your time, and I hope 733 00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:51.840 you were entertained and informed, and I will be back again next week with 734 00:51:51.880 --> 00:51:54.519 the greatest and latest in video game. So I hope you have a fantastic 735 00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:58.519 weekend or if you have a better week right behind it. And like I 736 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:24.000 said, we'll be back again next week with more cheese steaks and control. Baba h