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Belief in Gods, Satan, angels, Heaven, and Hell at a twenty

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three year low. This is a
story that we found on the Baptist Press

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dot com by Diana Chandler and it
was written on July thirty one, twenty

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twenty three. So Gallop, this
polling organization, Gallup, asked Americans whether

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or not they believed in God,
Angels, Heaven, Hell, and the

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Devil. And they could answer that
they believed in it, that they don't

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believe in it, or that they're
not sure somehow. But in general,

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they found that the belief in these
entities was at a quote twenty three year

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low, and there was about a
ten to fifteen percent drop in each of

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those in belief in each of those
entities. They also found that there was

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a positive correlation between belief and age, meaning that as your age increase,

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your belief went up. And they
also found negative correlations between belief and education

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level, so as your education level
goes up, your belief goes down,

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and a negative relation between belief and
household income level. Ben, what's your

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take on this? Yeah, I
mean all the stats line up kind of

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with what I would hypothesize, but
it is going in a good direction,

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and I'm excited to see that,
although we still have a long ways to

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go, because as people are,
you know, heading more towards disbelief in

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deities, we still have people that
believe in other supernatural entities. And so

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while we're getting some more non religious
people or just non non theist, I

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don't even want to say they're in
the camp of atheists yet because many of

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them are still in that not really
sure what they what they believe phase,

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But many of them are still not
skeptics, and they'll still accept other supernatural

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ideas. But so we have ways
to go there, and people aren't necessarily

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evaluating their truth methods yet. So
I think it's a step in the right

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direction. But I think even as
this number kind of goes down, I'd

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still would like to see some more
impact happening on, like people involved in

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like anti vax ideas, people having
issues with scientific literacy, natural medicine,

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Charlatan's chiropractors, and other problematic people
are just going to jump right on that.

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Like once this one thing kind of
becomes a minority, we're just going

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to get other people kind of taking
the place of that. So I think

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unless we kind of shift how people
problem solve this is still going to be

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kind of the same issue, just
new topics, And I guess that's why

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the ACA exists at all, is
to try to help people get into that

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mindset. But it was interesting for
me with this particular article, the idea

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that even though, like I guess, the weird thing for me was that

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a large amount of churchgoers no longer
believe in Satan or Hell, which is

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kind of odd, Like they still
believe in God, but they don't believe

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in Satan or Hell, which if
they're claiming to be Christian or some variety

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of Christian, that kind of throws
a wrench in their theology because I mean,

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as I understand it, the entire
Bible's premise is that they were tempted

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in the garden by Satan, and
that the whole reason to believe in Jesus

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is because of the threat of Hell. So you're taking it all out of

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context, Ben, Yeah, Well, like I feel like now we're getting

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some weird justification, like maybe people
are shifting more to an orthodox view of

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hell in that it's a separation from
God, but in the sense of like

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your spiritually separated from God, you're
all still in heaven, but it's just

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torture for you because no, I
don't know if you've heard of it like

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that. I've had Orthodox Christians explained
to me their view on hell, like

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many of them don't believe in a
physical hell. It's like everyone's in the

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presence of God. But if you
don't want to be in the presence of

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God, then it's torture for you
for eternity because you're basically in the presence

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of something you don't want to be
in the presence of. So it's like,

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yeah, so it's maybe people are
going more in that direction, but

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I just see that being the biggest
inconsistency with this whole thing, and I

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kind of need some more answers on
that. And I wonder if Helen has

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some answers. What do you think
I have answers. I don't know if

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they're correct, but I have answers. So, after all the bullshit we've

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just been talking about to the previous
episodes, if you go, if you

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want to watch the previous episodes,
if you want to know. While we

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talked about earlier that made us all
angry, but this gave me like a

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little ray of hope some sunshine in
my life, and because I do want

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to see people kind of get away
from supernatural beliefs. And yes I am.

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I went on the religious to spiritual
journey on my way to being an

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atheist. I took a stop along
there for thirteen years. And and basically

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the more education I got, I
went to school for psychology, and I

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was like, holy crap, we
fool ourselves all the time. And that

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was a really really good thing to
learn. And I'm glad to see people

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that they're questioning if there's deities.
Organized religionis and even has a role in

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a modern society. And I'm glad
that you know we are here because we're

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trying to push back against you know, bad ideas. Because if a religion

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was benign, you know the ACA, and you know the work I do

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with recovering from a religion, though, we as organizations would not exist.

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And but I think it's a good
thing that we exist. But I'm hoping,

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you know, maybe future generations,
you know, won't need these organizations

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anymore. And I want to really
point out that we do have to work

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on skeptical because you leave religion doesn't
mean you leave bad ideas and we need

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to be able to kind of break
things down and teach people to be more

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skeptical. So you know, that's
my first little bits of opinions that are

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going around in my big, big
brain. So, Phoebe, you have

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been waiting patiently to give your opinion, and I would like to hear it.

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Always a pleasure person. I'm nice
and patient, I'm calm, I'm

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rational playlists in a tone. But
whilst people have been talking about the article,

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and yes, it is baby steps
in the right direction, I had

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a real problem with the article itself, and that is that the article made

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the equivalency that a lot of articles
seem to do, and it's tried to

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equate poor people as stupid, and
that argumentation is seen over and over and

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over and over, and it is
very damaging because it diminishes the quality of

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the argumentation. Yes, the article
goes on to say median household income,

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the lower the median household income,
the more likely you are to believe in

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this, But that is not necessarily
something which can therefore be extrapolated out because

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it only looks at that one very
narrow thing, that is, those very

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poor communities, particularly within some parts
of the United States. You have to

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understand that there is a lack of
opportunity in these areas. Therefore, this

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spiral leads to a lack of educational
opportunities, a lack of wider exposure to

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things, and in a lot of
poor communities, particularly poor non white communities,

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they are built around religious centers that
are very free to enter in both

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the sense of liberty and gratuity kind
of free. They are both there for

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a very long and established time as
part of the community, and the culture

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is usually one that the community is
built around these church communities, particularly in

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places such as New England, because
that's where the first settlers went to establish

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their own religion. Freedom from well
George the Third as he was. And

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it is very irritating to see that
median household income is used as a benchmark

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for people believing in certain things when
it is a lot more nuanced than that

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I know personally. So she's my
language here, dirt poor atheists who don't

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believe a single word of this.
And I have met some millionaire religious people

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and it really irritates me when articles
seem to equate your household income with your

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likelihood of being skeptical, being a
believer in certain things, voting in a

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certain way. And what it does, and I'm guilty of this too,

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is it makes me stereotype these groups
as being well bigoted groups, which is

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wrong because it means that I will
bleed that bigotry over into other things associated

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with what are poor communities, which
are usually ethnic minority communities or communities where

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there is a high level of deprivation. And the article going down this path

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makes it so that its own arguments
are diminished by having median household income as

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one of the hooks, so to
speak. I couldn't quite get the word

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there to get its teeth into.
So Scott, what are you getting your

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teeth into? You know? I
think you make a great point their phoebe

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there there. It's very easy for
us when we see a story like this,

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and really it wasn't much of a
story. I mean, the story

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was basically just handpicked a few of
the points that was done out of the

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out of the Gallop poll, and
so they didn't really give much background or

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context to use that word. But
but I think it make a good point.

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They there there is research showing I
mean that investigates why is there a

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relationship between belief and income level?
Why is there a relationship between belief and

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education level? And it's not because
believers are stupid, although that is admittedly

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a very easy conclusion to come to
when you see something like this. For

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example, we know that individuals that
feel like they have less control over their

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lives, like would be the case
if they were a lower income or if

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they were a lower education level,
if they feel like they're, uh,

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there's too much out of their control, very often they can they can,

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you know, use religion as a
way to bolster that particular aspect of their

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personality. So I think that there's
there's a responsibility in reporting that that needs

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to I mean, they need to
at least comment on that kind of thing.

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They didn't say specifically believers are dumb, but they didn't also didn't specifically

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say that's not the case, okay, And so I think they're Like I

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said, there's some responsibility there to
at least put some of the context in.

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But as far as the results of
this survey, it's a feel good

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story, right, It's a feel
good story, and it gives me a

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little bit of fatherly pride when I
when I look at our country and it's

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and it looks like we're growing up
right. It reminds me of my favorite

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Bible verse, and I do have
a favorite Bible verse. It's out of

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First Corinthians, or as a prominent
member of society, said one Corinthians,

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thirteen eleven. Uh. This verse
says, when I was a child,

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I spoke as a child, I
understood as a child. I thought as

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a child. But when I became
a man, I put away childish things.

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And so when I see a story
like this, to me, we're

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starting to put away childish things.
The survey itself, I thought was very

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focused, which can be which can
be a good thing. It helps the

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respondents to stay focused on the information
that's that's of critical importance here. But

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I wanted to find out a little
bit more about the about what's going on

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here, so I found another survey. This one was the General Social Survey

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twenty twenty two by done by the
University of Chicago, and many scholars consider

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this to be the quote unquote gold
standard of surveys relating to faith. This

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survey was described at the Hill dot
com and and here's a quote to some

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extent, declining faith declining faith As
a generational trend, the share of Americans

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who claim no religion rises progressively younger
age groups, but the rise in non

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religious Americans is too steep to be
fully explained by in terms of general generational

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replacement, meaning the differences are more
than just the believers dying off and the

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younger people coming in. And this
was I thought was the most interesting little

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tidbit here. Scholars suspect many Americans
are simply becoming more open about rejecting religion

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and admission once clouded in stigma.
So let's think about that for a second.

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That's us. Okay, that's what
we're doing here. That's what we're

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doing on the nonprofits. We're helping
to eliminate the stigma that was once attached

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and still largely is that was attached
to being a non believer. It's becoming

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safer to say that you don't believe
in these things. And I think that's

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an effect that we as individuals on
the nonprofits and on the ACA shows in

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general, and then the atheist community
in general. That's something that we can

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put our that's something very practical.
Kelly Laughlin likes to say, let's you

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know what can we do what can
we do? Right, Let's get up

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and do something. Well, that's
something that we can do. We can

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normalize this idea that not believing in
these things is okay. And now that

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doesn't mean that, you know,
our battles over here, right, this

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battle for rational thinking isn't isn't over. But it does tell us that what

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we're doing is not necessarily in vain. And I think that's something to smile

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about. And I think it's a
glimmer of hope, and I take it.

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I don't know, it makes me
feel warm to read things like that.

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What do you got for us?
Next? Phebe here roll atheists and

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skipped this. Paul asks, well, what do you believe in? That

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supernatural? So, what's the supernatural
thing that you remember that you believed in

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that was well most far wacky out
there, Helen, I was a pagan,

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so I can. I can.
Let's have a whole let's of bullshit

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if you want me to. So. I believed in magic. I believed

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in psychics. I worked in a
psychic education center for a little bit so

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and talk to mediums and people that
could see the future and all that type

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of wooo weird shit. So you
don't. We don't have time for me

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to go into all the bullshit that
I used to believe. That's a different

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story. I've talked about it on
other ACA shows like Truth Wanted, so

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you can go hear me over there
talk about it. But anyway, I

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am really glad that these surveys are
being done. And I also want to

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point out something about education and income
level. We are now in the age

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of the Internet, and people have
access to education information that they didn't have

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access to before. And if you
have a smartphone and you're connected online,

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you have the ability to look up
information to learn new thing. There are

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plenty of websites at teach educational courses
that you can sign up for very little

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money. And I am encouraged by
this because it helps people that may not

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get that access to like a formal
education where you're going to like, you

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know, a college or you know
you can get you know, but the

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the arbitrary standard that we have sets
in this country about like you need to

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have a four year degree and blah
blah blah. Okay, I get that,

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because you know, there's some record
story study that has to happen.

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But the more access people have to
education and it's available at your fingertips.

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The more we're going to move into
a society of people learning skeptical thinking,

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learned how actually the world is.
And I think that's a very encouraging And

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I worry, as you know,
the faultiness and the stuff and this data

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is that if we're equating education and
intelligence with income level, that's not a

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fair way to look at it,
because you could be very well educated and

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make thirty thousand years, so I
think that you know or less. So

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I think that that's something that we
need to have more nuance on, especially

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going forward when we do these sort
of studies, and also to understand that

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just because someone says that they don't
believe in religion, they might believe in

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some weird woooo stuff, you know. And I think that if we push

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more that skeptical inquiry where switch was
Scott was saying, and we're going to

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see people eventually get access to more
information and we can and those of us

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that are you know, our activists
are pushing for that, and I think

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that's a really really good thing to
do. So anyway, Ben, do

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you have more to add to this
conversation as a super super smart person.

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I did want to answer Phoebe's question, and you know, you can.

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We can think of all the atypical
things that that are supernatural that we believed

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in, But it's the things that
are so common that I still find to

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be the most disturbing. Things that
I believed in, such as blood sacrifice

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to cleanse us of sin, Like, that's something I believed in, and

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that's something that like most Christians would
not bad an eye at because it's normal

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to us, but it's it's very
weird. It's a very weird idea,

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and the fact that we've normalized that
is pretty wild. So I'm gonna say,

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I mean, the majority of Christianity
is just a lot a lot of

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that kind of weird stuff. But
I don't need to think far into the

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into paganism or other things like to
find weird things that I believed in,

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because oh, man like, Christianity
has a lot of that and shares a

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lot with paganism too, it's all
different dressing basically. Absolutely well, my

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answer, I think is much more
boring. I don't remember ever believing anything

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supernatural. I grew up in a
religious family, but I don't I don't

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remember ever believing it. Although I
may have, I just don't remember it.

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I don't. The only thing that
I really remember believing was when I

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was a little kid. I couldn't
have been more than like six or seven.

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I got one of those chain letters. I don't know, I don't

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you kids out there. We used
to get like paper letters in the mail

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and it would show up at our
house and you could tear it open and

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read it. It was crazy.
It was wacky stuff. But I got

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a chain letter and it said,
you know, if you have to send

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this to ten people within three days
or whatever like, and I missed the

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deadline, and I was legitimately scared. I couldn't sleep for like two or

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three days. It was. It
was I thought some bad stuff was going

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to happen, and and and you
know, maybe that was my first step

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on my path to skepticism. Maybe
I was like, I thought something was

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supposed to happen to me. Nothing
nothing, nothing happened, and I was

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okay. And I think that's maybe
the closest I ever came to actually believing

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anything kind of wacky like that.
So you weren't one of those seed money

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people. You didn't. You didn't
seed your money there was From what I

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remember, there wasn't any money involved. It was just you weren't seeding your

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your your your pocket money or your
allowance away. Then that's that's a relief.

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But to band's my own question.
I used to be a practicing Jew,

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and I used to believe I could
literally wash away my sins by going

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to a special bath and washing them
away. Literally they would all be washed

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away if I dunked my head in
everything under the water. And you think

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of that now, and you just
go just a bit cleaner physically. You're

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not actually doing anything. It's just
it's just did you pick up any sins

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from the person I was in from
ahead of you? No? I think

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that they magically dissolved and then they
were all, Oh, I forgot about

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the magic dissolving. Okay, sorry, might see see it's like salts,

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right, But it is weird what
we all actually think of and what we

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actually believe. But to see that
the baby steps in the right direction are

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happening. But I hate to use
my mother as an example, but she

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did hire a medium after my grandfather
died, and that was out of step

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for my mother. There we have
to be aware that people will sometimes drift

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into these things and sometimes drift out
of these things. It's like you can

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drift out of here and drift back
in here and watch more non from its episodes