WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:04.440 I'm warning of an eradication of that of the American memory, that it could 2 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:21.480 result ultimately in an erosion of the American student. From Powerline blog dot com 3 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:26.800 and produced by Ricochet dot com. This is the power Line Show with your 4 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:42.079 host Steve Hayward. Well, Hi everybody, and happy holidays. And it 5 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.840 pleases me today to offer this bonus episode a conversation I had some months ago 6 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:51.799 now with Will Imboden. Will is the author of a terrific book I reviewed 7 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:56.679 a year ago in the Washington Freebeacon on Ronald Reagan, called The Peacemaker Ronald 8 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.520 Reagan, the Cold War and the World on the Brink. And as I 9 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.079 said in my review, I didn't know that there was much new to be 10 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.760 said about the subject until I read Will's book, and he dedicated himself to 11 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.439 going through the most recently released material in the archives at the Reagan Library and 12 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:15.480 found lots of things that was not available to me fifteen twenty years ago when 13 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:19.560 I was working on my own Reagan books. But beyond that, Will is 14 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.120 an important and interesting person because, in addition to having worked on Capitol Hill 15 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:27.159 and at the National Security Council under President Bush, he was for a long 16 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:32.359 time the director of the Clement Center for National Security Studies at the University of 17 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:37.239 Texas at Austin, and most recently he has become the professor and director of 18 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:42.640 the Hamilton Center for Classical and Civic Education at the University of Florida. Now 19 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.200 there are a number of these initiatives at various universities around the country, including 20 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:53.000 Ohio, Tennessee, North Carolina coming soon, where legislatures essentially have been saying, 21 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:55.239 you know, we need to do a better job of civic education. 22 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.239 We need to offer an alternative to students from the narrow, conformist and often 23 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:06.879 mediocre and bland consensus of academic liberalism. I guess you might say, and 24 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:09.280 so Will is brand new on the job, but he has great ambitions to 25 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.400 build out the program, and so after talking about Reagan, we spent a 26 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:17.639 few minutes talking about his plans for the Hamilton Center and the higher education scene 27 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:24.479 generally. Now, needless to say, this conversation took place before the events 28 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:30.400 of October seven up ended college campuses in the academic world everywhere, but that 29 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.919 makes his enterprise all the more important. And so, without further ado, 30 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:38.080 here is Will M. Boden. Will I am delighted to sit down to 31 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:43.080 talk to you about your book The Peacemaker, and also a couple other things 32 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:46.680 that are on my mind. And let me start off this way. You 33 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.120 know, I didn't think there was anything new for me to know about the 34 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:53.199 essentials of the Reagan Cold War story. I mean, of course there's new 35 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:57.199 information and all the rest, and because I finished my work more than fifteen 36 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:02.080 years ago, and so you know, I thought, well, it'll be 37 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.159 a good book from Will, but I'm not sure to learn anything new. 38 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.520 And I was completely wrong about that. Not only is there really fascinating new 39 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:14.680 information, but really original and new and important insights into the story. So 40 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:16.479 I think, you know, most listeners will know the basic story, or 41 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:22.639 maybe not completely. But I want to pick pick on home in on three 42 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:27.120 different things that and then one or two stray things. I'll mention all three 43 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.639 at the top, and then we'll take them one at a time. The 44 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:37.039 first is how much more active Reagan was in formulating the Grand Strategy to use 45 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:39.159 that phrase. I mean, I always knew that that was there, but 46 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:46.039 more levels of detail than I had appreciated myself. The second one was I 47 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.400 had totally missed the importance of Japan and Reagan's focus on Asia in general. 48 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.199 I knew a bit about some of the trade frictions and all the rest of 49 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:59.400 that, but I didn't realize the extent that they really understood the importance of 50 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:03.080 Asia. Think that's brand new in your book. And the third thing is 51 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:10.520 late in your book is the importance of Reagan's religious faith in shaping his views. 52 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:13.479 Some people have mentioned that before, but I think you've integrated that in 53 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:17.240 a way that is again new and carefully done and quite incisive. So let's 54 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.120 start at the top and let me sort of start the question over again by 55 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.959 saying, sorry, I'm going to listeners. I'm going to go on too 56 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:30.079 long. Were there any surprises along the way? Were there anything that changed 57 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:35.279 your thinking about what the storyline is about your understanding of Reagan that way? 58 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:38.720 Well, no, Steve, and I will I will answer that directly, 59 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:42.319 but first I got to buy my own preface say it's a real honor to 60 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:45.120 be here, but also thank you because you are such a great help to 61 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.199 me, especially early on when I was just starting this project of thinking it 62 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:53.519 through, to suggesting people to interview, giving me some thematic ideas. You're 63 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:57.839 the one who turned me on to her Meyer, vice chair of the NICK 64 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:00.439 and some of his really important work. So anyway, so thank you, 65 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.120 And of course I've benefited tremendously from your two volume magisterial Age of Reagan treatment. 66 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.759 So anyway, I'd be a bad guest if I didn't give that plug 67 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.600 to your question. Yeah, in a lot of ways, we hadn't pre 68 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.600 orchestrated this, but those three themes that you just highlighted were three of the 69 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:20.639 biggest surprises or revelations to me. You know, I went into the project 70 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.639 with, you know, ten years ago, now, I guess, with 71 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:28.720 a generally favorable assessment of Reagan as a foreign policy president, but not knowing 72 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.040 a lot of details. Right, most of my previous work had been on 73 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:34.120 the early Cold War Truman and Eisenhower, and then of course time as a 74 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:38.639 practitioner of the nine to eleven era. So this I was in some ways 75 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.600 taking a fresh look at the Reagan era in the nineteen eighties. And yeah, 76 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:46.160 I was surprised at how much more not just personally involved, but kind 77 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:53.040 of the personal orchestrator he was of his overall grand strategy. He's not just 78 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:56.680 getting ideas from other people and saying yes to them and giving a nice speech 79 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.639 about it, right, I mean, and this is where for his historians 80 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.800 were so dependent on using archival documents, you know, the original records of 81 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:09.480 the Reagan administration, and many of those had only been declassified in the last 82 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.160 ten fifteen years. So I was one of the first scholars, since we're 83 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:15.279 doing this after Reagan Library, actually able to come here to the library and 84 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:20.399 read things like the transcript of Reagan's meetings with heads of state or the transcripts 85 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.959 of Reagan's National Security Council meetings. Let me interrupt on that point that, 86 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.680 I mean, that's one thing that really had me not raising my eyebrows and 87 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.360 chock, but like to say, wow, therese accounts of NSC meetings where 88 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.480 Reagan is really i might say, running the meeting and really saying here's what 89 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:40.600 I think, and utterly original, utterly different, completely unknown to me, 90 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.160 how active and deliberate and sort of driving that process anyway, continue, yeah, 91 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.879 exactly so, and so reading those in tandem with you know, I 92 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.920 read every word of every page of his diaries, you know, obviously the 93 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:58.720 two volume absolutely fascinating connection. And so the interior Reagan worldview and Cold War 94 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:01.000 strategies came out a lot more, as well as things like, you know, 95 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.120 reading memos that some of his key staff, whether it's Bill Clark or 96 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:08.120 Dick Pipes, are writing, and then seeing Reagan's notes to them back too. 97 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.399 You know, he doesn't write extensive notes in all those, but on 98 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:14.879 enough of them. You see he's tracking this carefully, he's editing it, 99 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.279 he's putting his ideas in. He clearly has much more of a strategic blueprint 100 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:25.000 in the Cold War, whether it's on insights on Soviet vulnerabilities or the need 101 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.439 for more pressure on the defense and economic and ideological fronts, but also his 102 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:31.759 early on hopes to negotiate with the Soviets, just to negotiate from a position 103 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:36.519 of strength after having you know, kind of really really cornered them, and 104 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.439 so all that was new to me. Can I ask a particular question about 105 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:46.279 one document, and that was the to me famous NSDD seventy five, That 106 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.279 was that you know, what's our grand strategy the Soviet going forward? And 107 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:54.439 I think that's a really key document. My particular question is it's long been 108 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.199 reported, well, I was heard fifteen twenty years ago. Is that Reagan 109 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.680 edited the final version, and the story is he toned down certain things, 110 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:07.160 and I think Pipes wanted And so do you have any of the earlier raw 111 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.360 drafts. Do we know specifically now what it was he toned down or is 112 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.199 that still behind a veil? Yeah, so there's and I'm going to be 113 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.720 doing some of this from memory since it's a few years ago that I looked 114 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:20.680 really closely at that one and I just summarized in the book. But it 115 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.000 is a fascinating story. So again for your listeners, who may make me 116 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.560 oliver with the background, Dick Pipes was an eminent Harvard professor, a great 117 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.839 historian of Russia and the Soviet Union, one of the very few conservatives on 118 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.519 the Harvard faculty, and Reagan hired him as the first Senior Director for Soviet 119 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.639 Affairs on the NSC staff. So Pipes is coming in from academia as this 120 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:46.840 hawkish academic to advice Reagan started in nineteen eighty one. So the very first 121 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:52.080 draft of what became NSDD seventy five was a seventy five page single space paper 122 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.000 that Pipes writes for Reagan. Okay, so yeah, now, Reagan, 123 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.120 as you and I know, is much more of a reader than he was 124 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.360 given credit for. But no president's going to read a seventy five page memo, 125 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.840 right, and so Jimmy Carter exatly okay, which is part of the 126 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:13.639 problem. RS yeah and so and so Pipes sends that to Dick Allen, 127 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:16.279 the National Security Advisor, to send into to Reagan and analysis, you got 128 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:18.840 to tone this down. I mean, not that it's too strong, it's 129 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.360 just too long, right, you know, I don't have time to read 130 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:24.440 it. So Pipes is, you know, very irked at this. So 131 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.879 then Pipes edits it down to I'll put this in air quotes for your listeners, 132 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.200 you know, a short twenty five page memo, which he actually then 133 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.600 does. Reagan does read and you can see Reagan's writings on it, and 134 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.039 it and it's it's it's a much more fleshed out version of what becomes NSDD 135 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:46.360 seventy five of challenging the Soviet system, pressure in it on on its vulnerabilities. 136 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:52.000 The one area where there's a little bit of difference is Pipes was much 137 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.440 more skeptical of any negotiations with the Soviets, and Reagan early on wanted to 138 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.240 negotiate with them. He just wanted to do from a position of strength, 139 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.279 and so again doing this from memory, that's where some of Reagan's edits were, 140 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.000 but he had Pipes come up with this really interesting formulation, which you 141 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.960 can see in the final document. Part of the pressure is to pressure the 142 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:18.279 Soviet system to strengthen its reformist elements and to produce a reformist leader. And 143 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:22.200 so this was another big insight for me. You know, there's this endless 144 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.200 debate about who deserves more credit, Reagan or Gorbachev. They're both essential, 145 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:30.159 obviously, but one of the themes of my book is for the first four 146 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.159 years of his presidency, Reagan has a deliberate strategy to pressure the Soviet system 147 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.519 to produce a reformist leader. And so that's why he recognizes Gorbachev when he 148 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.039 comes along. And again that was one of the things that came out of 149 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.519 that interplay between him and him and Pipes. Yeah, I remember two things 150 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:48.759 that come back to mind now is somewhere in the middle it says, I 151 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.240 don't know, I don't have this quite right, but negotiations on the basis 152 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.320 of strict reciprocity, right. And then at the very end, the very 153 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.759 last paragraph says, this is a strategy for the long term now here on 154 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.720 really paraphrasing, it's going to be controversial. There's going to be a lot 155 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:05.960 of pushback. We're going to be told we need to go back to the 156 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:07.799 old daytontis ways, that's not how it's phrased, like I say, But 157 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.440 there's a recognition that this is bold and new and we're going way out there. 158 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.919 Yeah. Yeah, And that's where you know, the timing matters too, 159 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.919 because Pipes stays on the NSC staff through December of eighty two, so 160 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.360 he's there for Bill Bill Clark's first year as National Security Advisor, and then 161 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.960 he's he wants to go back to academic. You know, I've gotten my 162 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.000 draft done. And then Jack Mattlock comes in to succeed him. And Mattlock, 163 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.000 who is you know, very capable and important and I think the right 164 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:39.639 person at the right time, but he's a not quite as hard line as 165 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.159 as Pipes is. And so Mattlock wants to soften and tweak the NSDT seventy 166 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.000 five a little bit, and he does in a few places, but Reagan 167 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.519 says, no, Pipes and I agreed to this, and I want this 168 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.960 is the basic framework. So let's not you know, we're not going to 169 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.440 rewrite it to turn it into a you know, a Ford Area Daytononic strategy, 170 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:58.720 right right, you know. I of course, one of the things 171 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.159 that's one might say is well, these are classified documents for a long time. 172 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:09.159 True, as was NSC sixty eight. And you know, when I 173 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:11.320 have to try and talk about the Cold War very briefly the students or anybody 174 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.799 else, I always say, look at these two documents. They were both 175 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:18.960 classified NSC sixty eight. It's Paul Nitza, writes Paul Nitza, who's still 176 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.320 around in nineteen eighty two. Yeah, this is amazing, right, And 177 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:28.679 then nsd D they changed the acronyms. Is also the similar idea, here's 178 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.559 our grand strategy. And I always say what people say, well, what 179 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.120 how do you understand these things? And I always say, this is the 180 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.799 senior reaches of the government talking to itself because they want to get clear in 181 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.559 their heads and keep guidance for all the other people who have to try and 182 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.039 carry these things out. Here's what we're about. And we underestimate the importance 183 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:52.039 of even in the classified document of the government sitting down our top leaders and 184 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.639 saying what are we all about? What what are we trying to do here? 185 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.879 Instead of just inheriting, you know, vague path dependent policies. That 186 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.600 okay, Well, on the second one, which was I thought, wow, 187 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.279 this is really interesting. I had never perceived this or thought about it. 188 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.879 It was Reagan and his team realizing the importance of Japan as part of 189 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.759 their strategy of confronting the Soviet Union. But of course I thought layered us 190 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.720 in very well, this had a domestic side to it, right, We're 191 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.960 having all the controversy about our trade deficit with Japan and the auto industry and 192 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.720 quotas on their cars and this and this, and so I thought I hadn't 193 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:35.240 really ever thought it through about how Reagan and I think you said, pretty 194 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:41.000 very successfully balanced domestic policy pressures while also enlisting Japan as such a key ally 195 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:45.080 when that both sides of that could have gone badly wrong. Yeah, yeah, 196 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.120 so yeah, again, this is another one of these revelations for me 197 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.679 in the course of the research. I didn't start the book project looking for 198 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:52.759 that, right, but the evidence was just overwhelming and it just had a 199 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.240 few themes to highlight there for our listeners. It is one. This shows 200 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:03.039 what a real different it's Reagan made as a leader because he inherited a framework 201 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.799 in American strategy, which is that China is the key to Asia. And 202 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:11.120 that's what his three predecessors, Nixon, Ford, and Carter, you know, 203 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.159 Democrats and Republicans, had done, and so they were just trying to 204 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:18.240 shunt Japan to the sidelines. And so Reagan inherits this framework of China is 205 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.240 the key to Asia. And you know, China at the time was somewhat 206 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.000 helpful encountering the Soviet So this is it's not as terribly wrong headed a policy 207 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.559 as we might as he might think today. But Reagan thought this is his 208 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:33.399 way out of whack. Japan was at the time the only democracy in Asia. 209 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.440 They were, you know, the world's second or third largest economy, 210 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.320 depending how you crunched the numbers. They're an American treaty ally, and he 211 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.720 thought, this is nuts. Why we would be favoring communists China over free 212 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.000 Japan. And this is where we also need to appreciate and you probe this 213 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.799 in your great book on him. He'd been the governor California for two terms. 214 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:54.840 California is a Pacific state, right. So when Reagan, you know, 215 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.799 during his eight years in Sacramento, when he's when he's you know, 216 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.120 looking across the position that he sees Japan as a really important ally and the 217 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.679 key to the future. He's not only an Atlanticist, so what he but 218 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.879 he inherits this challenge of you know, most American foreign policy makers want to 219 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.639 privilege China, and meanwhile, most Americans don't care for Japan because they're blaming 220 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:20.720 it for our lost manufacturing jobs. Right. And so Reagan executes this transformation 221 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:26.440 if he takes the US Japan relationship from primarily this economic rivalry and he turns 222 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.720 it really into a strategic partnership, and that you know, that's not just 223 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:35.000 happy talk. I'll give it just a couple of tangible examples. He persuades 224 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.799 Japan to triple its defense spending in eight years, triple it right in absolute 225 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.240 dollars, and that puts you know, Japan is just across the sea from 226 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.159 the Soviet Union there, so that puts tremendous pressure on the Soviets and there 227 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.720 far east. So Reagan essentially gets Japan to open up an entire new front 228 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.279 in the Cold War. You know, it's not just across the Iron Curtain. 229 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.759 This drives the Soviets crazy when when Reagan, when Gorbachev meets with Nakasani's 230 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.720 he's braided And why are you so close to Americans? Why do you listen 231 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.879 to that guy? Reagan drive some nuts. Then Japan, of course, 232 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.720 as a technological powerhouse, also provides us some key research helpon SDI and some 233 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.480 of our defense modernization too, so we get real benefits out of the Japan 234 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.759 partnership. Interesting. Yeah, and again I wasn't looking for that, but 235 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.960 it's just it's there abundantly in the newly declassified doctor. Yeah, but I 236 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.159 think you know, all the people writing about strategy in the eighties or Strobe, 237 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:26.360 Talbot, whoever you want to pick, that none of them seemed to 238 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.000 pick up on this that I recall, or that I had noticed in my 239 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.440 own review of things. All right, now. The third one was everyone 240 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.679 knows that Reagan was a godly man, let's put it that way, and 241 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:42.159 his faith was important to him. But of course there's always the Reagan's the 242 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.879 reserved you know, the fact that Reagan held a lot of things closely, 243 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:52.480 and so I think you bring out here and there not I don't I read 244 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.240 your book months ago. Now I don't remember quite exactly how prominently, but 245 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.159 it was clear to you and that his religious faith was essential, oh yeah, 246 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.960 to his thinking through this problem. Yeah. And again another one of 247 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.240 these things that I wasn't really looking for, but the evidence was just overwhelming. 248 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:12.079 And I do want to give credit here. Paul Kengor at Grove City 249 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.240 College has done a couple of actually a number of great books on Reagan, 250 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.279 but a couple in particular on Reagan's Christian faith. And I had read those 251 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.359 and so that that had told me, Okay, there's there's definitely something here, 252 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.039 but I wasn't connecting it to the broader Cold War story. But the 253 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.079 key sources for me on this again Reagan's diaries, which he when he was 254 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.240 writing those every night faithfully as president, he wasn't planning for them to be 255 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:34.759 published, right, so that he's not thinking about this as the bestseller. 256 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.680 And so that's where you can really see the private, the private Reagan and 257 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:41.000 his faith is really clear there. I mean, just you know, one 258 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.559 example I cite in the book, right after the assassination attempt, as he's 259 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.440 lying there on the hospital bed at GW Hospital, about to go under. 260 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.640 You know, he's this close to death, and and he praised that God 261 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:59.680 will forgive John Hinckley Junior, the dranged, you know, a man who 262 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.559 had just try to kill him. And Reagan says, I realized, I 263 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.480 can't pray that God will heal me if I'm harboring hatred in my heart towards 264 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:08.720 the man he tried to kill me. And aren't we all God's lost sheep? 265 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.839 Right? So this is not political posturing for the evangelical votes, right, 266 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:18.279 This is I think, an intensely personal, intensely sincere sentiment. The 267 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.119 other one that really came out fast forwarding is Reagan's some it means with Gorbachev, 268 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.039 especially the last one. He spends a lot of it trying to persuade 269 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.200 Gorbachev to believe in God. Okay, again, this is not your typical 270 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.519 summer tree, right, This is not you know, typical arms control negotiations. 271 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.400 And this is just Reagan's genuine worry for Gorbachev's soul. He thought, 272 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.079 this guy's an atheist, he's missing out on the real source of transcendent internal 273 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.799 meaning in life. And I because I care about him as a person, 274 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:48.599 even if I detest the system he represents. I want to persuade him and 275 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.240 believe in God. Right, So this is you know, you can't chalk 276 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:55.079 this up just to political expediency or centenceism. There's other examples like that in 277 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.920 the book, but you know, I remember one one really startlingly personal aspect 278 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.240 that conversation. And I don't remember if Reagan brought it up or if Garbachah 279 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.079 brought it up to put Reagan on defensive, but it comes up that, 280 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:07.960 you know, Ron Reagan is not a junior, but Reagan's son was an 281 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.960 atheist. Yeah, Reagan himself present, Reagan brings that up. Yeah, 282 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:17.240 And that's again where it's a very intensely personal, revelatory thing to share with 283 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:22.359 a Soviet leader. Yeah, with anyone. Yeah, especially you know, 284 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.640 your sadness of your own son being an atheist and right, and Reagan you 285 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:27.960 know, speaks mournfully about that and says he's, you know, trying to 286 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.480 persuade his son to believe in God and this. You know, I'm not 287 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:33.920 there in the room, but I'm reading the transcript, and you can see 288 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.720 that Gorbachev has kind of taken aback by this and then kind of touched by 289 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.839 it. He I don't think he's persuaded. I don't see any evidence Gorbite 290 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.400 ever, you know, became a Christian necessarily. But but again that shows 291 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.279 you something about Reagan. But finally, to connect it to the Cold War 292 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.720 strategy. This is also one reason where Reagan hated Soviet communism. It's not 293 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.519 just that it's a command economy. It's not just that it's a totalitarian uh 294 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.799 you know, one party rule. It's that it's atheistic and that it would 295 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.400 not let Jews go to synagogue or Christians go to you know, do Bible 296 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.960 study or go to church. And he just thought that that was so iniquitous 297 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.720 but also a sign of its vulnerability, like what kind of barbaric system won't 298 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.680 even lets people worship God? Right? Right? So let me do one 299 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:21.680 uh one, not stray voltage exactly, but here and there in your book 300 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.880 several places. I think I wasn't counting, but I did take note to 301 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.920 the fact that you were. I'm not sure critical or regretful is the right 302 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.079 term to use, the fact that you thought Reagan and his team were too 303 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:37.960 tolerant. First of all, human rights was such an important thing for him, 304 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.759 and yet we had to tolerate or were too tolerant of authoritarian regimes with 305 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:48.920 dreadful human rights records that could have been Argentina and nty one Asian regimes, 306 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.559 and and I mean the explanation for that would always be the real politique, 307 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.680 right I think? And so what what are your I'm not sure you sort 308 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:03.920 of declared inclusion or and a narrative. It doesn't quite work to do that. 309 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:07.160 So I'll put it this way a little bluntly. What's your point here? 310 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.119 Is there something way you think they could ever should have done it differently? 311 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.480 Or were they just simply too single mindly focused on the Soviet Union and 312 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.480 thinking perhaps too one dimensionally that we solve that problem, then the rest of 313 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.759 this starts to change. I don't know. Yeah, no, this is 314 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.640 a very good question, and I'll share some further thoughts on that since I 315 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.480 sprinkles. You're right, I sprinkled some of those things out of the book, 316 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.039 but I just didn't have time or space to fully develop it. And 317 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.160 let me just first say that my standard with writing the book was I tried 318 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:38.960 to ask myself what were the feasible available options at the time, right, 319 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.160 So I'm not trying to do I hope it doesn't come across as armchair quarterbacking. 320 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.400 You know, I write as a former policy maker myself. Right, 321 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:48.119 sure we can point out in hindsight, would you wish you would done some 322 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.559 but what were the available options at the time. And so I start actually 323 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:56.920 with some real empathy for the challenge Reagan and inherited, which is that you 324 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:03.160 know, most recently in nineteen seventy nine the Iranian Revolution and then the Sandinista 325 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.119 Revolution Nicaragua, we had seen how there are worse things than a thuggish right 326 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.079 wing autocrat, which is a radical revolutionary regime, whether it's you know, 327 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:17.200 radical Islamic revolutionaries in Iran or communist in the case of Nicaragua. And so 328 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.200 Reagan and Jeane Kirkpatrick I think had very good grounds to criticize the Carter administration 329 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.359 for this double standard, like you'd give the Soviets a pass on their barbaric 330 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:32.000 oppression, but you're beating up on our friends and who are not great, 331 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:34.759 but at least they're anti communist. And there is a worse alternative, and 332 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:40.240 we've seen that in the cases of Iran in Nicaragua. So I start with 333 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:42.400 some real sympathy there, like they inherit a difficult hand, and when you 334 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:47.240 look at the feasible options, it seems like it's either right wing dictatorship or 335 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:51.519 communist dictatorship, and they're both bad, but communist is worse. I'm fully 336 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.359 on board with that. Where I am a little more critical, however, 337 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.960 and this is where I think I can point to the Reagan record to vindicate 338 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:06.119 this is there was developing a third way option of transitioning to democracy, that 339 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:10.079 it didn't have to be a choice between right wing or or communist dictatorship. 340 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:17.119 And Paul Wolfowitz, Elliot Abrams they recognize this pretty early on, and by 341 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.799 nineteen eighty two, especially with the Westminster Address, but also the Salador in 342 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.759 elections, Reagan himself is starting to move more and think, actually, maybe 343 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:30.240 there is a way that we can nudge these right wing military dictatorships, not 344 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.079 such communism. We don't want that, that's the worst, you know, 345 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.960 possible outcome, but nudge them towards democracy. And some of it's pragmatism. 346 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.000 The Falkland's invasion is a big deal. When the Argentine you know, military 347 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.880 hunter, you know, he realized when they invade the Falklands, he realized, 348 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.039 Okay, these right wing dictatorships. They may be anti communists, but 349 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.880 they're also prone to doing stupid things like invade your friend's allies, you know, 350 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.599 eyelids, right, It's okay, And of course they then fall, 351 00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.680 and so he starts seeing actually in some of these governments there is a hunger 352 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.039 among a lot of the people, you know, the student demonstrators of South 353 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:08.200 Korea, for democracy. And so the challenge he faces is how can you 354 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.839 know, he and his administration nudge them towards democracy without letting them, you 355 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:18.119 know, go the revolutionary path into communism. And that's where they do have 356 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.240 some amazingly successful policies. Right So Argentina, Brazil, Chile, El Salvador, 357 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.960 South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, especially by the second term, they 358 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:32.440 all do undergo peaceful democratic transitions. And so so I'm where I'm more critical 359 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.680 of Reagan is not recognizing that earlier on he gets hit by eighty two eighty 360 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.440 three, but that was after supporting some pretty thuggish stuff in eighty one. 361 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:45.039 But I hope readers will hear from me that I have some sympathy for the 362 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.880 hard choices they faced. I just think that there was that option to be 363 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:52.160 a little more morally and strategically consistent early on. But these are hard choices. 364 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:55.119 Well, that's why I said, I couldn't decide whether to characterize your 365 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.240 treatment of that as critical or regretful. Yeah, which is probably a little 366 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:02.880 more regretful. Okay. Yeah, And and again, like I said, 367 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:06.200 making the allowance of my standard is what seemed to be the available options at 368 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.400 the time. And you know they even in eighty one, I think they 369 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:14.519 didn't have some options to start, not withdrawing all support but rather using the 370 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.400 support is leverage. It's actually harder to promote democracy and human rights with your 371 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.519 allies than with your adversaries, right, because there's a lot more at state. 372 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.200 You don't want to lose the ally entirely, whereas you know you're not 373 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:26.279 friends with you know, the East Germans or the Soviets. You could beat 374 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.559 them up all you want, and it writes it's not going to cost much. 375 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:30.880 Yeah, I mean in detail about Argentine. I can't remember it's in 376 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.359 your book, but I know it's a lot of other treatments about the whole 377 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.640 Central America. SOCA is. We were using Argentina in nineteen eighty one as 378 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.200 our sort of base for training the contra. Yes, and so that all 379 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.640 ended with the Foles, Yeah, yeah, a big problem for okay. 380 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.119 Yeah. And then the other one about the Asia story again is listening to 381 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:55.359 here earlier to speak about an agenda for research, is you know about South 382 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:56.359 Korea? I mean, you know, and Reagan comes to office. One 383 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.519 of his acts is what writing or even calling whoever is the general is running 384 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.039 South Korea saying don't execute Kim day John Yeah, yeah, it was General 385 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.680 Chun Yeah. And Reagan's has don't execute Kim je jung. Right. But 386 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.480 then you know, you think about, well, you know, the I 387 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.160 don't remember the exact timeline history of South Korea, but they're always having these 388 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:19.519 military governments while we have thirty thousand troops sitting there. Yeah, what an 389 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:23.359 amazing practical problem we faced. Oh yeah, I know. And the very 390 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:26.240 real threat of another invasion from the North too, I mean, yeah, 391 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.599 that's you know, the fact that it didn't happen doesn't mean it wasn't a 392 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.640 real, real possibility. Ye. And of course it's in a rough neighborhood 393 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.839 because North Korea, you know, look at a map is bordering the Soviet 394 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.119 Union at the time too. I mean, so it was. It was 395 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:42.000 a real challenge. But what Reagan and Schultz, even Vice President Bush I'll 396 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:48.039 give him some credit for realized was the military dictorship in South Korea was becoming 397 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:51.880 pretty brittle. That was more and more of these student protests and just the 398 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.880 general loss of popular support. And of course the South Korean economic miracle had 399 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.839 created this growing middle class who wanted a little more you know, say in 400 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:03.200 their political lives as they in their economic lives. And so the Reagan team 401 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:07.880 realized that this may not be sustainable and had we may be facing another you 402 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.279 know, eron type revolution here, and so we need to nudge them. 403 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.119 We needed to tell Chun, look, you know, you need to peacefully 404 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:18.160 step aside and allow allow transition to democracy, because we're not confident in your 405 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:23.400 continued ability to be the strong man anti communist. Wilier's been so and then 406 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.599 oh sorry, and then Reagan had no hesitation and what was nineteen eighty six 407 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:32.799 of well sending Paul Laxolt. But the point is to send the message to 408 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:34.119 Marcos that it was time to go. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And 409 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.920 again that's another one where he saw he's losing popular support and you realize, 410 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:45.079 Okay, if we continue to just unconditionally embrace Marcos, he may get ousted 411 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.039 anyway. And there was a communist insurgency in the field Pines at the time. 412 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.160 There's a real worry that and you know Vietnam and Goon communists is ten 413 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.200 years earlier, right that this is a real fear. And so both on 414 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:59.440 moral and strategic grounds, he realizes, okay, we need to pull that 415 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.640 support for Marcos, and you know allowed and of course they already had the 416 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.519 elections to elect Corea Kino with people power, which you know Marcos was trying 417 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.240 to defy. By the way, going back to twenty your early questions, 418 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:15.079 this is where Nakasni and Japan were quietly helpful, where Nakasni sent a message 419 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.279 to Marcos, quietly saying, look, I know we Japan have supported you 420 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.240 before, but it's time for democracy, and we don't want to be the 421 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.119 only democracy in the region anymore. You know, don't don't try to play 422 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.000 us Japan off against the United States. We're not going to support you as 423 00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:33.160 much either. And so so this is where the interlocking pieces of Reagan's support 424 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.279 for allies and his freedom strategy kind of come together, right right, So 425 00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.559 let me make this last word about the book before going on to a second 426 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.319 completely different subject. Listeners, you all need to get the peacemaker and read 427 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.880 it. I'll just stop there. I do want to talk about a completely 428 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.359 different subject. That's one that's very high on my mind these days. You 429 00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:55.920 are just now heading off to Florida to run the Is it called the Hamilton 430 00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:57.640 Center? Yes, so it's the University of Florida. Yeah, we'll take 431 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.039 it from the top and the sort of you know, give me your elevator 432 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.920 pitch or however you like to describe this enterprise to the wider world. Sure, 433 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.880 well, thank you. I'm very excited for this, although I need 434 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.279 to, you know, give the big caveat here to your listeners that the 435 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:11.119 day we're recording this, I've now been in the job in Florida for four 436 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.759 days, I think. Okay, so I'm working in a temporary office there. 437 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.440 I'm still literally figuring out how to unlock my door and turn on the 438 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:21.640 lights. Okay, so I'm any potential donors out there, Sorry, this 439 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:23.559 is not a fully forged pitch yet. Okay, But that said, the 440 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.039 reason I agreed to make this move, and I'm excited to do this. 441 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:33.359 So the full title is the Alexander Hamilton for Classical and Civic Education, and 442 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.279 it was an initiative of the University of Florida Board of Regents and then the 443 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:45.559 state legislature and the governor. There essentially an effort to recover classical liberalism and 444 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.640 more traditional humanities and social sciences education. So it's a center right now, 445 00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.640 but we have faculty lines. We're going to be offering classes and hopefully building 446 00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:02.200 out a fairly robust academic program. I'll certainly be looking to hire a number 447 00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.799 of new faculty, so we'll be teaching in the great books, We'll be 448 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:11.160 trying to do some multidisciplinary liberal arts degrees. We'll do hopefully something on history 449 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.839 and state craft, something on politics, philosophy, and economics. And to 450 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:19.799 like I said, to really recover I shouldn't say recover, but at least 451 00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:26.799 restore the teaching of Western civilization and those values in the broader higher education landscape. 452 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:32.240 So we want to stand for civility, civil discourse, but sort of 453 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:38.000 reconnecting the traditional canon of classical liberalism, if you will, to the twenty 454 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:42.759 first century research university and hopefully bring some viewpoint diversity. Yeah, you know, 455 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:47.559 open with a joke, is you want to restore the old great books 456 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:51.079 in Western civilization, like it's a good thing. I mean that, I 457 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:55.079 mean caricature here, but only a little bit. I mean, we're now 458 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.039 seeing a lot of this happen around the country very rapidly Tennessee, North Carolina, 459 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.200 Ohio. And the last month State was a decade ago now. And 460 00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:08.400 the idea is, I mean, it's a complicated as you know, having 461 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:11.440 spent all this time at the University of Texas and elsewhere, it's a complicated 462 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:18.599 story about how the ideological skew happened in universities and even a lot of you 463 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.839 know, and I've been, as I put in an inmate at Berkeley out 464 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:22.920 for a while. And why am I there, Well, it's because even 465 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.880 a lot of liberals and people pretty far the left say, yeah, something's 466 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.759 got a balance, we don't quite know how to fix it. And there's 467 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.880 a shortage actually of conservative or even sort of slightly center right academics out there. 468 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.440 Has become a negative feedback loop. It's all kinds of and I actually 469 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:45.880 think also that something that's less perceived is how certain methodological fads, fads maybe 470 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.359 is a pejorative term, but certain methodological emphasies and disciplines that have risen over 471 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:55.240 the decades. They're not intentionally ideological, but they've sort of reinforced it that 472 00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.480 way. Right. It's something in the case in my own field of history 473 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:01.480 exactly. Oh, history, political science is I think way overweight in the 474 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:06.279 empiricism. Yeah, the cult of the quantitative exactly. I mean what people, 475 00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:09.680 what people Berkeley say is you can't study what you can't measure, and 476 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.119 I think that's just completely wrong. Yeah. I mean I listen to these 477 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:19.000 regression models and they're often useful and interesting, and I actually do teach you 478 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.839 something. But that can't that's too limited in there. Okay. And by 479 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:25.960 the way, most conservatives I know don't want to do that very much. 480 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.400 Who just wants to do regression models? Right, yeah, you know the 481 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:34.079 lake James Q. Wilson said, I only did one regression analysis in my 482 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:39.359 life, and one was enough. Okay. So, buts idea is, 483 00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:44.200 rather than you know, beat on departments said, oh, you're just a 484 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.880 bunch of crazy leftists or something like that, this model looks promising, it's 485 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:51.000 let's have competition. Yeah, yeah, and this is and you know, 486 00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:53.599 look, University of Florida has I don't know the exact number, maybe thirty 487 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.839 four to thirty five thousand undergrads, and like, you know, one of 488 00:32:55.880 --> 00:33:00.960 the largest, you know, state universities in the country. I just see 489 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:04.119 our job as providing them some choice, right, I mean, we want 490 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:07.799 to give those undergrads, especially as many options as we can, as well 491 00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:09.880 as you know the other departments can and just and they can, they can 492 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.960 pick and choose and just you know, they're gonna be investing in so much 493 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.119 money and time and their education, and we want to give them that and 494 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:19.359 a lot of ways. You know. Because you brought up the politics of 495 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:21.920 this, I kind of hope that we can depoliticize things, right. I 496 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:23.960 mean, you know, this is not to push any particular ideological agenda. 497 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.200 I do share concerns that a number of other won't speak about UF because I'm 498 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:32.759 so new there. But I've seen the other universities how politicized the humanity have 499 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:37.119 become, you know. So I'm not going to be asking any faculty that 500 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:39.119 we look to hire how they vote, or how any students how they vote. 501 00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:43.200 We're just gonna be saying we stand for a certain set of kind of 502 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:49.200 the the older values of a classical liberal education, of reading core text carefully, 503 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:52.799 of taking ideas seriously, of really exposing our students to a broad range 504 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:57.920 of viewpoint and that will certainly include conservative viewpoints, but that won't be the 505 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.519 only one, and just kind of recovering the more traditional model of what we 506 00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:06.160 all think and hope a university can be. Right, Well, let me 507 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:08.119 sort of press on you a little bit on the substance of the matter. 508 00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:12.960 By the way, I'm in heated agreement about my idea, is an ideal 509 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.480 faculty, ideal department would be sort of fifty to fifty or maybe thirty three 510 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:21.039 thirty three with somebody in the middle, right, Yeah, and that's the 511 00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.519 political spectrum. Yeah, the political spectrum, right. And the other thing 512 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.880 data point. I know you've heard this as much as I have. You 513 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.360 ask around college administrators and faculty, and they say, one of our big 514 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:36.639 problems in this country is civic education has just gone down the drain. Students 515 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:38.679 don't know, you know, separation of powers or you know, the Bill 516 00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:44.519 of Rights and and and they say, so we've got to rebuild civic education. 517 00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:47.639 And I always sort of say, okay, I don't think anybody would 518 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:52.039 disagree with that. But there is a problem when so many of the in 519 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.800 here it will be a little ideological for just a second. Is when the 520 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:59.159 dominant teaching is, yeah, but it was all bad. You know, 521 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.800 the country was found in by slaveholders. True. And in other words, 522 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.840 a lot of the civic construction these days is just very negative. It's not 523 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:12.440 to say criticisms aren't valid and shouldn't be dealt with directly. But then the 524 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.480 other part of that, and you raise it, is when you say, 525 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:19.480 read the old books in a traditional way, take their ideas seriously. I 526 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.840 think a lot of the problem these days is not so much necessarily a leftist 527 00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:28.679 bias. It's what we political philosophers call historicism. It's assuming that we don't 528 00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.760 really have that much to learn from an old book, and you read, 529 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:35.880 say John Locke, just to pick on him because maybe it's a historical curiosity. 530 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.599 In other words, the old way of doing things was to start with 531 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:45.000 the premise that maybe they have some insight that's true always and everywhere, and 532 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:46.840 if it's wrong, let's figure out why it's wrong. And if it's parts 533 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.679 of its right, let's sort of see how it still works. That's a 534 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:55.599 difference in disposition of how you actually think about the world. And so, 535 00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:58.800 by the way, you don't necessarily have to be a leftist to be a 536 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.000 historicist. I think there are right wing historicism and I argue with them a 537 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:04.760 lot. Yeah, anyway, sorry, that was a little speech. I 538 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.159 don't know if you want to grab hold of any of that or no. 539 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.800 I'll just yeah again, I'll give an overall a strong affirmation and agreement there 540 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.119 is you know, given that obviously part of our mandate with the Hamilton Center 541 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:17.719 is going to be uh you know, some some dimension of civics education. 542 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.880 Uh. Yeah, we want to tell the whole American story. Now, 543 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.039 I happen to think that the whole American story is overall a very good story, 544 00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:28.400 right. Some of that whole story is, you know, taking our 545 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.119 countries founders on their own terms, going back to what we were talking about 546 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:32.199 with Reagan, like what did the world look like to them at the time, 547 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.559 what were the available range of options. There's obviously some you know, 548 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.280 very stortid, very very sordid and troubling aspects of our past, such as 549 00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.760 you know, slavery being the cardinal one. But let's look at some of 550 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:46.519 the early debates over slavery, and let's look at some of the voices against 551 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:51.639 it as well. And then let's look at the values and principles hardwired into 552 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.360 the American Founding that to create the basis to eventually abolish slavery, right, 553 00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:00.119 right too, And let's let's understand uh uh, let's understand those as well, 554 00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:05.400 rather than just merely sitting here in the twenty first century imposing our retrospective 555 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:09.559 judgments on you know, those you know, benighted founders and everyone else, 556 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.039 right, yeah, I mean you probably know this. One of the best, 557 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:17.480 I think best explanations of the Founding debates on slavery, and one of 558 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:21.679 the best critiques of the way it's gone off the rails recently is by Sean 559 00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:25.679 Malance. Oh yeah, who's otherwise a pretty far left historian and certainly a 560 00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:31.719 Reagan haters maybe the little strong, but not much. And you know, 561 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:36.360 so if your listeners, he's a very eminent historian at Princeton University, Sean 562 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:37.639 writes, yeah, yeah, yeah, well he has, but he's done 563 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:42.639 a lot to really, I think, debunk the distortions of the sixteen nineteen 564 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.400 project in particular, right, yeah, exactly, So that's why it doesn't 565 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:47.239 have to be strictly a left right thing. Yeah, well, let's end 566 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:51.519 with this and take it back to Reagan. I think what you're talking about 567 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:55.719 about this enterprise reminds me of the closing passage of his farewell address where he 568 00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:59.880 says, right, we have to remember our history, and he mentions particular 569 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.639 typical Reagan says, kids need to know what the Doolittle raid was. Now, 570 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.320 that's almost forty years ago. Now, a lot of people still alive 571 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.760 in and know what that meant nowadays. You know, I mean, I'm 572 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.440 not entirely facetious saying you mentioned the students, now the doctor Doolittle? What 573 00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:16.880 are you? You know? What this right? No right? And not 574 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:20.360 to be starky man. Unless someone makes a video game out of it today, 575 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.039 it's forgotten, that's right. Yeah. Well, congratulations on the book, 576 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:28.440 Congratulations and great hopes for the Hamilton Center. And thanks very much, 577 00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:30.639 well, thank you. Steve has been a privileged to do this. And 578 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.199 are we doing a good enough job teaching our children what America is and what 579 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.119 she represents in the long history of the world. Those of us who are 580 00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:44.480 over thirty five or so years of age grew up in a different America. 581 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.280 We were taught very directly what it means to be an American, and we 582 00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.400 absorbed almost in the air a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions. 583 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:58.559 If you didn't get these things from your family, you got them from 584 00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.360 the neighborhood. And I'm the father down the street who fought in Korea, 585 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:06.679 of the family who lost someone at Anzio. Or you can get a sense 586 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.519 of patriotism from school, and if all else failed, you could get a 587 00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:17.239 sense of patriotism from the popular culture. The movie celebrated democratic values and implicitly 588 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:22.599 reinforced the idea that America was special. TV was like that too through the 589 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:28.719 mid sixties. But now we're about to enter the nineties and some things have 590 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:35.599 changed. Younger parents aren't sure that an unambivalent appreciation of America is the right 591 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.480 thing to teach modern children. And as for those who create the popular culture, 592 00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:45.719 well grounded patriotism is no longer the style. Our spirit is back, 593 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:51.480 but we haven't reinstitutionalized it. We've got to do a better job of getting 594 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:57.480 across that America is freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom 595 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:05.440 of enterprise, and freedom is official and Rare Ricochet join the conversation.