1 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,600 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Drshinsky, 2 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,480 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:25,519 --> 00:00:29,320 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr ls T. 4 00:00:29,519 --> 00:00:32,240 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,600 the premium version of our website as well. I'm joined today by John Matza. 6 00:00:36,679 --> 00:00:40,240 He is the CEO right now of Hedgehog. You may know him formerly 7 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:44,000 is the CEO of Parlor. John. Welcome to the show. Hey, 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,520 thanks for having me on, Emily. Did I bought your last name? 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,840 John? Oh? Yeah, totally. That's all right, give me the 10 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,960 better pronunciation. It's mates, like I think, like Australian friends mates. 11 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,679 Okay, So that was like probably the worst botch I've ever done, So 12 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:03,000 thank you for the correction, John, No worries. I mean people have 13 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,239 done all sorts of stuff. Sometimes they just call me like Matza ball or 14 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,239 something and they just totally go off and like just give up. I mean, 15 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,120 Manza balls are great, So it's not the worst comparison. Yeah, 16 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:21,519 I could. It works. Okay. So let's say before we started recording, 17 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:23,879 we were talking a little bit about how you're You're back in California, 18 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,680 and there's all kinds of things we can talk about with California, with your 19 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,840 industry, the tech industry, and I know you have a lot of thoughts 20 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:36,359 basically on what's going on with regulation and AI and everything. So I want 21 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,439 to get into that first though. Could you tell us a little bit about 22 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:42,840 Hedgehog and what you're doing with it? Yeah, that'd be great. So 23 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,120 Yeah, basically at the end of my last project, so I founded and 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,840 kind of led Parlor from nothing to the big success that it was. It 25 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,680 was number one in the App Store and we had fifteen million active accounts, 26 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:01,959 and so that was kind of one of my biggest projects that I started. 27 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:07,200 And then after that kind of collapsed down the wake of January sixth, and 28 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,879 I was no longer affiliate with the company. I went on and decided to 29 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:14,400 take a few years to step back get out of the media. At that 30 00:02:14,439 --> 00:02:16,120 time, I was on television like at least once or twice a week, 31 00:02:16,759 --> 00:02:23,000 and I was all over the place where on social media I had over a 32 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:25,360 million followers and was engaging. I took a step back. Now I met 33 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:31,039 like four hundred followers it's pretty great, And I just disappeared from the media 34 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,439 for a while and took a step back and said, hey, what's going 35 00:02:35,479 --> 00:02:38,039 on with social media and what is it that everyone's doing and why does it 36 00:02:38,159 --> 00:02:45,280 suck? And if you take a look at what basically every social platform was 37 00:02:45,319 --> 00:02:49,560 doing, it's a highly centralized platform where all the moderation and all of the 38 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:55,080 big decisions come from a central authority of like maybe five people, and they 39 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,439 always get their decisions wrong, and so they have to make these really tough 40 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:02,120 calls on the fly. Tons of social pressure, business interests all coming in 41 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:07,120 there, and they just consistently, especially in the last few years, make 42 00:03:07,159 --> 00:03:10,439 the wrong decision, and that hurts our discussion online. And it not only 43 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:15,439 hurts our discussion because people are unable to talk about certain things, it also 44 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:20,400 hurts the discussion because this central authority has all sorts of interests. So social 45 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,759 platforms have to worry about advertisers, they have to worry about how the algorithms 46 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,680 are bringing people back to the platforms. They want engagement, engagement to scrape 47 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,400 out even a twenty percent boost of engagement, they'll make judgment calls that are 48 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,120 not good for the conversation. So when I took a look at that and 49 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,719 had stepped away from social media for a couple of years, they said, 50 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:46,120 well, how do we change what we're doing to make social media productive? 51 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,639 How do we make it so that people are having these good conversations with one 52 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,719 another. How do we make it so that people are able to express themselves. 53 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:57,680 What we've designed with Hedgehog is a platform where you can sign in and 54 00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:00,479 get your news of the day, and it's a curated news feed amongst a 55 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,680 handful of publishers, and you talk with other community members about it in a 56 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:11,960 way where the community's in charge. So the idea is those tough decisions that 57 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,680 the social platforms typically have in these central committees where they're like, well, 58 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,319 socially is this acceptable or not? We tay, the community has the ability 59 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:23,680 to moderate that that And so when you're on Hedgehog, the more you engage, 60 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,319 the more respect you earn, and the more respect you have on the 61 00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:30,199 platform, the more say you have about the community itself. It's really kind 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,600 of giving the community that. Now. You know, it's funny because I 63 00:04:34,639 --> 00:04:41,279 remember when Parlor was going through actually really one of the low points or one 64 00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:46,560 of the most telling sort of moments in big the history of big tech. 65 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,920 Frankly, after January sixth with the app Store, I remember talking to somebody 66 00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:55,480 from Parlor actually on this podcast. I think it was one of your attorneys 67 00:04:55,879 --> 00:05:00,120 something like that, and asking, you know, but I get it, 68 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:03,279 I you know, I this the censorship is outrageous, The suppression is outrageous. 69 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,800 What are Parlor's plans to be, you know, an app that is 70 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:12,959 less addictive and less you know, painful for people to be on than Twitter 71 00:05:13,079 --> 00:05:17,120 is now? And it sounds John like you Actually, you guys really learned 72 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:21,720 from watching the mistakes of other social networks, and I guess I wanted to 73 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,839 see if you could talk to us just a little bit about how, you 74 00:05:25,879 --> 00:05:29,360 know, the arc of social media like Twitter actually used to not be a 75 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:32,240 terrible place, and have you taken any lessons from kind of what it looked 76 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,279 Twitter, other apps looked like before the turn towards what they are now? 77 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:42,399 What? I Yeah, what I've had kind of seen with Twitter in particular 78 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:46,160 in that I really don't like is every action that you take on Twitter is 79 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:53,279 super public, and it discourages people from being themselves because if you go, 80 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:56,680 hey, I actually like this post, or at least maybe I disagree with 81 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,600 this person, but I respect them, So I'm going to give them a 82 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:02,120 like. You can't do that on Twitter because if you do, it's going 83 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,120 to be broadcast to all your followers and it's going to say, hey, 84 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,000 John liked this controversial thing, and you're like, hey, John's a jerk. 85 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,759 Why did he like that? It's like, well, I didn't actually 86 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,759 like the content, I just like that. I respect the person who said 87 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:16,639 it. I wanted to acknowledge that I engage with them. You can't do 88 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,439 that on Twitter. It's not a place for them. And because everything's so 89 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,360 public, and the reason they do it they want everything that public is because 90 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:30,279 you get incremental boost of engagement by throwing more junk in people's feeds. And 91 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,399 the number something around thirty percent is the increase in engagement on a feed that's 92 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:44,120 really highly algorithmic then basically chronological. So if we want to be doing the 93 00:06:44,199 --> 00:06:46,240 right thing, which is what we're doing, we have a chronological feed. 94 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:49,480 So what you follow, what you subscribe to, that's what you get in 95 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:55,920 your feed in chronological order. By doing that, we do acknowledge making a 96 00:06:55,959 --> 00:06:59,959 sacrifice in some potential engagement. But what we are doing is making sure people 97 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,240 see exactly what they want and they're getting it, and they've opted into everything 98 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:11,480 that they're seeing on Twitter. It does increase engagement. People get a little 99 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,519 bit more outraged. You get a lot of just content getting thrown at you 100 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:15,439 and you're like, how did this end up in my feed? Why is 101 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,480 it here? And it's like nobody knows, the engineers who built the algorithm. 102 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,160 No, no, but hey, it's more content engage go And I 103 00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:27,040 think that has a profoundly negative effect on society, getting all this junk in 104 00:07:27,079 --> 00:07:30,519 there that you just you don't need. And it also makes it so that 105 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,279 people are not really authentic when they are engaging with other people because they're worried 106 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,959 what actions am I going to take if I make a comment here? Is 107 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:42,199 that comic going to get thrown in someone's feed? Is this? Like? 108 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,959 I don't know? And addressing that's really important. I like how you made 109 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,839 the point about opting into the content that you receive, because obviously you'll know 110 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:54,680 this better than me. Maybe you can speak to it. But the advertising 111 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,959 models have changed the way you keep people on the app to see more advertisements 112 00:07:58,959 --> 00:08:01,720 on different apps has changed, and so I guess that means bringing in more 113 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,319 content that the algorithm thinks you might engage with, even if you don't want 114 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,839 to engage with Is that sort of the psychological effect of that is, if 115 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:11,639 you put something outrageous in front of our face, you'll spend more time on 116 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:15,480 the app because you engage with it, even if you don't really want to 117 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,160 be engaging with it, even if you think, maybe this isn't healthy for 118 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:20,480 me in the long term, and you wouldn't make the conscious decision to click 119 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,040 follow. So you know, what is the is that the business. Can 120 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:31,360 you speak a little bit to how the business is different with hedgehog versus what 121 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,799 they've done to optimize people's time on the other platforms. Yeah, and it's 122 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,159 also taking into context too what has changed in the industry in the last few 123 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,120 years. So a few years ago, ads were a lot more powerful in 124 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,600 terms of generating revenue for these platforms than they are now. So off the 125 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:50,440 shelf ads if you were to work with like Google ad Sense or one of 126 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,360 these other companies that sells you ads and then you can resell on your platform. 127 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:01,000 It's been going down in value tremendously especially on Apple Devicespple devices are paying 128 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:05,320 very little now because Apple is actually making it so that it's harder to track 129 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:11,279 people, which sounds nice, right, and Google in Apple's intention with that 130 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,879 is anything but nice. They tried to launch an AD network and it wasn't 131 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,639 very successful. And so Apple makes thirty percent commission off of developers and apps 132 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:24,039 that sell things on their platforms, specifically premium subscriptions. And so if Apple 133 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,080 can't make money off of ads, well let's make it so that nobody can 134 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,679 make money out of ads and change the entire tech industry model to move toward 135 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,159 subscriptions and force people to pay subscriptions where Apple gets thirty percent of the subscription 136 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,480 fee. So that's why you're seeing AD income going down. And the reason 137 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:46,279 that's relevant here is if ad income is going down, other business models need 138 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,200 to come into play. And what Hedgehog has is a premium subscription model for 139 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,360 our highest tier, which is our contributor tier, so people who post videos 140 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:56,399 and images, and we work for the people who are on our platform. 141 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:01,679 So rather than going on a social platform whe where the social media works or 142 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:05,679 the advertisers, the people on our platform are our clients. So we want 143 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,320 to protect their interests. We want to make sure they're happy, and we 144 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,080 want to make sure they're seeing what's what they want to see. So that's 145 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,679 why when you go to our feed, you get what you wanted, what 146 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,360 you opt into. You're not going to see ads if you're a contributor. 147 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:22,320 If you are on our free tier, you will see ads. The income 148 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:26,240 for platform for people who are in the free tier for us, is going 149 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,200 to be far less at scale than those who are paying the subscription. So 150 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,639 we're really incentivized to work for those people who are paying the subscription, and 151 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:37,279 that's really important to make sure they're happy. And that's ultimately also why the 152 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:43,759 scraping every little piece of engagement out of people isn't as important for us if 153 00:10:43,759 --> 00:10:46,679 we know the subscription fees the same whether you use it twenty million times a 154 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,919 day in an unhealthy faction, you know, obsessing over every piece of reactionary 155 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:54,639 content, or you're there, you know, perionically to get the news and 156 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,720 have good conversation. That's why it's different. Does that make sense? Absolutely? 157 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,480 Absolutely, And you know you've weighed in. Actually, and some of 158 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:07,879 these other tech companies Troubles recently had a good piece for Newsweek that I wanted 159 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,960 to talk about because a it sort of brings us back to what you experienced 160 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,480 after January sixth with Parlor, which I think is always worth revisiting. I 161 00:11:16,519 --> 00:11:22,720 think people don't understand exactly how serious that case study is and was at the 162 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,879 time. But also because Apple is currently facing an anti trustitute from the FTC 163 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:33,080 from Lina Khan, and it's very high profile. It sends shivers down the 164 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,039 spines of people who work in murders and acquisitions and in the tech companies. 165 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,120 So could you tell us a little bit about your perspective looking now at the 166 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:48,120 FTC going after Apple. Yeah, well, today, the I think, 167 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,799 with how bad inflation has been for the last few years, the FTC and 168 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,440 a lot of these companies are looking at, Okay, now, we're going 169 00:11:56,519 --> 00:11:58,639 to take this monopoly stuff a lot more seriously because we need to get consumer 170 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,519 costs down, and so that's what they're I think part of the reason why 171 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,360 they're so motivated. Now. That being said, if we take a look 172 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,600 back at the end of my time at Parlor, which is right after January 173 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:16,480 sixth, what happened was collectively, for those who aren't aware basically at the 174 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,559 peak of our success at the end of the election year in twenty twenty. 175 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,720 In the beginning of twenty twenty one, Parlor became the skateegoat for January sixth, 176 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,799 claiming that somehow it was all organized on Parlor, which is like such 177 00:12:31,799 --> 00:12:35,600 a fallacy. It's ridiculous. I mean, it is insane for a number 178 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,480 of reasons. And the more you know, the more it's like, this 179 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:43,519 is ludicrous. We it actually alerted the FBI that there are these bought accounts 180 00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:48,279 and these like really weird actors about a couple weeks in advance of January sixth, 181 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,120 maybe it was a week. It was in advance, well in advance 182 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,840 for them to notice. We said, there are these accounts. They're trying 183 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,279 to draw people into these sketchy Facebook groups about some event, and it is 184 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,679 happening on January sixth. And I think the quote from the employee who worked 185 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,080 for me to the FBI was something along the lines of we're really concerned about 186 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,720 this behavior. We've gotten rid of all these accounts, and we just wanted 187 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,159 to let you know these are the fake you know, they're going to Facebook 188 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:18,039 groups essentially, So we shut that down because we don't want people organizing on 189 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:20,320 the platform, and there's no way to organize on our platform, at least 190 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,480 at the time where there was no groups, there was none anything. All 191 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,000 there was the ability to share a link and to take you to Facebook or 192 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,960 like. We don't want that, so we shut that down well in advance 193 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,200 and notified the FBI. Then after January sixth, when it's all occurring, 194 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:39,759 you know, I'm sitting here going, well, that's horrible. We did 195 00:13:39,879 --> 00:13:41,919 kind of tell them in advance that that was going to happen. We don't 196 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:46,440 have any features to do that on our platform ourselves. And then anyway, 197 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,279 it was just convenient because Parlor was seen as being conservative or right leaning. 198 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:56,080 That Facebook CEO came out made some statement about how it's those crazy old platforms, 199 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,200 and then Tim Cook came out and said something about how we're you know, 200 00:14:00,279 --> 00:14:05,279 not regulated enough or something. And then overnight, Apple, Google, 201 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:11,360 Amazon, Are legal firms, other hosting companies, pr firms, everybody all 202 00:14:11,399 --> 00:14:15,919 within like twenty four hours of each other, terminated their contracts with us. 203 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:20,240 So we just didn't exist anymore online and then had you know, quite a 204 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:26,799 few vendors drop us too after they saw it happen with Amazon. So it's 205 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:30,559 just like you just disappear overnight, and that's a scary amount of power. 206 00:14:30,559 --> 00:14:33,480 It's in a handful of companies to do that, and the fact that Apple 207 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,200 is really the one that kicked it off. When Apple says something, the 208 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:41,480 entire app like, the entire industry moves because Apple, in my opinion, 209 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:45,840 is more powerful than any government out there. They have more control over the 210 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,639 tech industry than about any any other company because if your app doesn't exist on 211 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,519 Apple, it doesn't exist in the world. And yeah, okay, John, 212 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:58,759 there's Android. But if there's no Apple users, which make up most 213 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:05,080 of the the wealthier demographic of people who are on apps too, if you 214 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,000 get rid of that, they're like, if you can't talk to your Apple 215 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:11,000 friends, there's no reason to be on phone app talking to somebody, right, 216 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,000 So it's devastating. And they make a hefty profit off of the apps 217 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,919 from the developers, which is a thirty percent, which is where I get 218 00:15:18,919 --> 00:15:24,159 to this FTC piece. Right, if you have a company that is extremely 219 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,000 powerful and controls manipulates the entire tech industry where they can say, hey, 220 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:33,039 we're going to make it so that your your app can no longer make money 221 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,559 off of advertising on Apple because we want you to pay our thirty percent subscription 222 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:41,759 fee. If they can do something like that, that's probably going to get 223 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,960 the eye of the FTC, who's sitting here going wait, that's going to 224 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:48,480 drive up consumer costs. They can't get apps for free or are they going 225 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:50,919 to start paying for apps? Or you go over to the EU, where 226 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,159 the EU has even said, hey, Apple, your app store monopoly is 227 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,720 illegal. According to European law, you need to allow competition, and so 228 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:03,759 you need to allow sideloading. So if I own my phone, I should 229 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:06,879 be able to put whatever apps I want on it. And Apple said, 230 00:16:06,919 --> 00:16:10,879 oh, I will try to humor you. You can have a competitive app 231 00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:15,279 store, but if you try to install apps on it, we're going to 232 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,879 charge you a fortune to do it, and we're going to make it incredibly 233 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:22,320 difficult. And ultimately you just use our app store anyway. And so they've 234 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,720 exhibited this behavior, which is really bad faith, in an effort to keep 235 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:32,399 that income coming from their app store, which is tremendous. I mean, 236 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,159 you're talking and I don't have the numbers in front of you, but you're 237 00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:37,559 talking like tens of billions of dollars a year in revenue. It's a lot 238 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:41,879 of money, and all of that's coming from consumers and developers. And that's 239 00:16:41,919 --> 00:16:45,200 why I think the FDC is so interested in all this anti trustuff. Right 240 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:52,399 now, don't ever let anyone tell you that having a national debt isn't a 241 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,519 problem. The Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris 242 00:16:56,559 --> 00:17:00,559 helps unpack the connection between politics and me and how it affects your wallet. 243 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,920 What portion of your dollar that you sent to Uncle Sam is just paying down 244 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,440 our national debt? Forty percent? Forty cents of every dollar is just interest 245 00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:12,440 on our spending. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 246 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,680 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street 247 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,519 podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 248 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,680 Yeah, you know, it's interesting from the perspective of an entrepreneur to 249 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,759 look at what the FTC is doing because so many like Ted Cruz, for 250 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:34,640 example, is somebody who basically wrote in his book that big tech is too 251 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,880 consolidated, but is a bitter opponent of Lena kh and actually spends a lot 252 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,359 of time opposing Lina Khan, and I think, you know, Lina Khan 253 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:48,240 probably has engaged in some almost Wilsonian government excess of the you know, just 254 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:53,240 within the administrative state. The FTC itself is problematic obviously, but from the 255 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,440 perspective of an entrepreneur and somebody who's been in the business community to look at 256 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,440 what Lenakon is doing, I guess my question John is you know, is 257 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,799 there an argument that actually, really it's a net benefit to the cause of 258 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:11,720 free markets in this case because of the consolidation in big tech. Yeah, 259 00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:18,160 I mean big tech is incredibly consolidated, and a handful of companies Amazon, 260 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:23,400 Apple, Google, Microsoft, those to name the biggest players. In terms 261 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,880 of Apple, they are by far the biggest of the group. And so 262 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:33,279 my philosophy, generally speaking, is I like the most competition possible. Well, 263 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,400 I love free markets. I love the idea that companies can go out 264 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,119 and if you don't like something, you can compete with it. In fact, 265 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,240 that's kind of the basis of the last company that I started, as 266 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:45,279 ideas I didn't like what the tech companies were doing and I wanted to compete 267 00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:48,480 with It's what I'm doing now again today, right is I don't like how 268 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:51,319 social media is designed. I'm going to compete with it. We're going to 269 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,640 change everything, and we're going to go out and do it. Apple is 270 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,640 the biggest thing standing in the way of free market competition in the tech space. 271 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,079 If Apple doesn't like what you're doing, they can shut your business down. 272 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,000 That's bigger than any government, and it's completely unchecked. It's basically like 273 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,000 having a dictator or a king in the middle of the tech industry, pulling 274 00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:15,359 the streams and saying I don't like you, and they can shut you off 275 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,079 tomorrow. They cannot only remove your app from the app store, they can 276 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:22,799 delete that app off of the device of everybody who's downloaded it and make sure 277 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:27,759 that you don't exist. And that's an insane amount of power. And you've 278 00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:33,480 also been talking a little bit about how this is infecting or maybe affecting the 279 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:37,519 artificial intelligence space, the generative artificial intelligence space. Can you just give us 280 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,559 this a super broad question, but I'm curious at how you describe it in 281 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:47,960 broad terms, what you make of the landscape of generative AI right now, 282 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,119 because obviously there's a push among it's almost like a crony capitalist arrangement between some 283 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,160 of the big companies and the regulators. The Biden administration wants to be seen 284 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,799 as being very tough on these companies, but they're actually kind of working hand 285 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,039 in glove with these companies in a way that I think some of us would 286 00:20:04,079 --> 00:20:07,240 say, Yeah, there should be a little bit of communication between the government 287 00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:11,160 and the companies on this, but it also is it's starting to look way 288 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,880 too cozy. So John, what is your perspective on all of that. 289 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,799 Well, I'm always weary when government says that they're here to do something to 290 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,319 either like help the industry or get involved to help you against an industry. 291 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,440 Generally speaking, they tend to make everything worse, especially when it comes to 292 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,440 technology, because I think the knowledge of the lawmakers, especially on these issues 293 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:36,480 is so out of date and out of touch that it's typically just a lobbyist 294 00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:40,680 who are informing them on what to do, or the people that are around 295 00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:44,640 conveniently at the time that decisions are being made, and that's not okay. 296 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:48,880 With regards to AI, I think generative AI is a lot of fun, 297 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:51,559 to be honest. I mean, we had a lot of cool tools that 298 00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:56,000 we tried to do with our app with generative AI. In Hedgehog, we 299 00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:59,359 had an AI image generator, which was a lot of fun, and so 300 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,119 you could type in post and hit and generate AI, like, generate an 301 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:03,079 image for this post, so you don't have to go out and find a 302 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,599 gift or whatever. You can just hit generate and it gives you a couple 303 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,400 options and you selected it. We had to delete it. We had to 304 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,480 get rid of it. Although it was a lot of fun and people loved 305 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:19,480 it, in some weird fringe cases, the AI would actually violate our terms 306 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,279 of service to the point where like it was generating nudity even though we told 307 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:27,079 it not to. We had checks and everything on it. You can't control 308 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:33,119 it. So tying that back into the conversation we just had earlier, if 309 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,759 we can't, if we had a tool that sometimes violates our own terms of 310 00:21:37,799 --> 00:21:41,079 service, If we can't hold our own terms of service, Apple will bannas 311 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,200 from the app store. Google will banness from the app store. So we 312 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,160 can't have a tool in there that might sometimes inadvertently and even if you disclose, 313 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,279 hey, just warnings of beta product. If this happens, I'm very 314 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:56,160 sorry, you know, use it your own risk. Whatever. You can't 315 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,200 have that kind of stuff in there, because if you have a tool in 316 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,200 your app that violates your own terms of service, off the stores. So 317 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,000 we're like, well, is it worth the risk of this fun tool? 318 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:08,519 No, so we deleted the tool. You know, the AI did a 319 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,519 few other things that are really sketchy too, that were kind of offensive at 320 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:18,079 times. If you typed in something like, hey, I need a group 321 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,279 of kids smoking pot to talk about how pot has a bad influence on children. 322 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,000 Right, the images of the children smoking pot were all of one race, 323 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,039 and they were all, you know, always in the kind of same 324 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,680 scenarios, and I'm like, why did the AI do that? Why? 325 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,759 And how are you supposed to stop it from doing something like that? And 326 00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:44,240 then you got a bunch of fans or yeah, exactly right, Yeah that's 327 00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:49,519 and then you go over to like Gemini, which was Google's approach to it, 328 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:52,880 right with the image generation, and then it's got like a woke George 329 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,640 Washington and you're like geez like, So, so you either get one extreme 330 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,680 or the other where it's like completely unfiltered and sometimes has some crazy bias, 331 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,279 or you just have this completely woke AI. So I'm like, it's a 332 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:10,880 fun tool, it's just not there yet. Is there anything that really scares 333 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,240 you about this? In the same way that kind of what you witnessed with 334 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:15,920 Parlor and what you're trying to combat right now at Hedgehog, there was something 335 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:22,920 very scary, this like anti or this pro suppression instinct among regulators, among 336 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:26,160 the left very broadly, and also among some members of the public. I 337 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,440 don't think it's what consumers generally want, but some of them definitely do, 338 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:33,240 and I find that disturbing. But is there anything about the AI landscape right 339 00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:37,440 now that actually really scares you? Some people speak in very alarmist terms about 340 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:38,720 it, even some people who have been, you know, part of that 341 00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:41,440 industry. Other people that are part of the industry say this is great, 342 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,599 the sort of the Mark Andresen's the e acts of the world. Where do 343 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:48,079 you land? Where do you land on that? John? I mean, 344 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,799 yeah, it's like where's reality right now? With it? It's it's it's 345 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:56,480 a good tool to help make people's work a little bit easier, but it's 346 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,240 still it's just a tool. So think of it like the car was an 347 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,680 improvement from the horse. Well, the AI is a slight improvement from where 348 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,680 we were before, Right, That's that's really what it is. You can't 349 00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,319 let AI go out on its own. It's completely unpredictable, and we experienced 350 00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:15,920 that firsthand. Like I said, with the image generation, the funniest part 351 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,599 is when it would stereotype your names. So you type in John, would 352 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:21,880 give you a stereotypical John image out. It was always some like bland white 353 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,680 dude, who was it, like in a suits or something, and I 354 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,920 was like, wow, my name sucks, that's great. Or you put 355 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,559 in like Conrad and it was like some Nordic like Viking, but like a 356 00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,680 little bit obese and completely naked every time, and you're like why, like 357 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:41,039 why is that the stereotyper comes out? Okay, fine, So like AI 358 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,519 is, it's capable of producing results, it's just it needs to be babysat. 359 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:47,480 You can't let it go off on its own. And I think the 360 00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:51,160 alarmist people will calm down when the rest of the community starts realizing that too, 361 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:55,119 and hopefully no one decides to put AI and charge of renuclear arsenal or 362 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,960 something because it's not capable of doing that. Fingers crossed, Yeah, Gary, 363 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:07,160 Yeah, I know it's funny talking about some of this because I mentioned 364 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,759 earlier that you mentioned you're back in California. You're from California, And I 365 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,279 know our listeners have heard me talk about this before, but I'm sort of 366 00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:19,680 fascinated and just find it so the arc of California to be so tragic because 367 00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:23,519 I'll watch, you know, the intro to La Confidential, and it shows 368 00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:30,000 these ads from like the fifties about how California is this destination for the middle 369 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:34,160 class. Not come here and make it big in Hollywood, but come here. 370 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,599 It's gorgeous and you're free. It's sort of like the pinnacle of American 371 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:45,519 freedom. And we actually really started to see that rolled back, kind of 372 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:51,680 specifically because of the way the tech industry has a special interest. I shouldn't 373 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:52,799 say it's only because of that, and you'll know more about this when I 374 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,839 ask it to you, John, but teeing it up still that there result 375 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,559 so much control as a special by the tech industry. They started as you 376 00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,559 know, the original kind of pirate ship, and then wanted to be the 377 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:08,960 regulators themselves, or wanted to be best friends with the regulators themselves, and 378 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,079 none of the Obama White House, et cetera. What happened to California? 379 00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,279 Why did you go back to California, John, It seems like such a 380 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:21,319 miserable place these days. Well, I yeah, I escaped after I graduated 381 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,759 high school. So I went out. I went and moved to Denver. 382 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,799 I moved all over the place i'd lived in Denver. I lived in Washington 383 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,359 State, New York, Hawaii, some international locations like. I pounced around 384 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,160 a lot. Then I landed in Las Vegas. That's where I lived for 385 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,440 quite some time. It was an awesome place because it was about half as 386 00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:42,319 much money to live there. The food was like three times as good. 387 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,839 Like, if you think about it, if you're in the suburbs in Las 388 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,200 Vegas, you have the best chefs in the world competing on the strip, 389 00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:52,559 and so who are the chefs that are going to be making the food for 390 00:26:52,599 --> 00:26:55,319 the people who live next to it? Like the second best chefs in the 391 00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:56,720 world are the ones that are making your local sushi place in the hole in 392 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,200 the wall diner. You're like, that's awesome. Uh. And So I 393 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,519 loved being out there, and I still love going out there as much as 394 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:06,559 I can. And this year I made the move out to California because my 395 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,279 daughter is going to school and she's you know, I want her to grow 396 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:12,400 up where I grew up. It was awesome and and I want to give 397 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,720 her that same, you know, childhood experience. You can be by her 398 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:18,720 cousins, your family, and you know, I've I'm kind of you know, 399 00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:22,279 I'm a single dad, so I want to have my family around to 400 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,599 support the whole thing. So it made sense for me to go back to 401 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,960 California. It was more of an emotional and family decision rather than a financial 402 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:36,039 or sane one, to be honest, because it's not financially sane. And 403 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,680 uh, luckily I'm in an area which I would call pretty middle of the 404 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,640 road, so it's not it's not these the places that you hear about when 405 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,160 you're talking about all the political extremists that are in California. So it's southern 406 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,519 California. It's amazing how many like red pockets of California there are, you 407 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:57,119 know, especially like in more rural areas. But obviously there's Orange County, 408 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,839 and then there's big military communities and parts of the state too, where it's 409 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:03,839 they just put up with all of it because there's really no other option. 410 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,640 It's such a one party state. Yeah. Yeah. And the area that 411 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,720 i'm is a lot of military, so at least in the vicinity, not 412 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:18,680 the people living here, because you know, it's impossible to afford to live 413 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,400 out here for most, like ninety percent of people I got. I got 414 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,400 very lucky. The last couple of years after Parlor, I got to build 415 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,279 up my consulting company again. We made apps for people, so any kind 416 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:33,200 of software, apps and infrastructure required, and it was I was far more 417 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,000 successful running that company than I was with the income I was receiving from Parlor, 418 00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:40,799 because every dollar we made it Parlor we were making. At one point 419 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:41,960 we had a couple of million dollars a month we were making, and I 420 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,640 was like, let's just throw it right back in the company, keep investing. 421 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,759 We're gonna build this thing. It's gonna be the biggest, the best 422 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:49,920 thing ever. And I think I had a salary of like one hundred and 423 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,880 fifty thousand dollars a year, which might sound like a lot for some people, 424 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,160 but for the tech industry, that is like junior software engineering caliber. 425 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,119 And I was the CEO. No profit distribution, Let's go all in. 426 00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:06,119 We're going to make this great and so afterwards, you know, starting my 427 00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:08,039 own business again allowed me, I guess, to come back out here, 428 00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:11,799 which was great, and I've gotten to pick up some cool hobbies too, 429 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,519 So I started doing flight lessons, so I'm kind of I'm almost got my 430 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:19,599 pilot's license, so I've been doing that a lot, got a lot of 431 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,880 time with my daughter and family out here, so it made it worthwhile coming 432 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,640 out to California. I just don't recommend it for most people, you know, 433 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,200 and your dad. So I'm also curious what you've made of the recent 434 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:37,599 debate that Jonathan Hite has sparked about smartphones and specifically though the smartphones with social 435 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,759 media apps on them. His theory is that with Gene Twenji and zach Raush 436 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,440 somewhere around like twenty twelve, you just see this massive spike in for example, 437 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,920 suicidal ideation, anxiety, depression across multiple countries, not just here in 438 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,000 the United States, but across multiple countries, and you know that it's time 439 00:29:56,119 --> 00:29:59,319 for corporate America, the tech industry to start taking this really seriously. It's 440 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:02,359 time for the government start taking this really seriously, and for educators to start 441 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:06,960 taking this really seriously, and so as somebody who's actually involved in designing these 442 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,160 technologies, where do you land on that? John, Yeah, it's really 443 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,920 we're right in the middle of this debate too, especially with what's going on 444 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,440 with TikTok right now. So if we take a look at it all. 445 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,160 Instagram, for example, they did a study. I can't remember who did 446 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,920 the study. I read it recently, and maybe we can fact check this, 447 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,759 or anyone who's listening can fact check it, but that essentially one in 448 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,000 three teen girls who're using Instagram are developing more depression and suicidal thoughts as a 449 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,839 result of their activity with Instagram. And uh, of course that's you know, 450 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720 Facebook's going to try to say, oh, no, we're going to 451 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:44,200 build kids to Graham now, it's going to be great, We're gonna get 452 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,200 more kids on it. It's like, no, you guys are the problem. 453 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,240 I mean, if you in my household, my daughter is not going 454 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:53,440 to be able to see social media until she's eighteen plus, and I will 455 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,799 teach her, you know, exactly what it means to be online, that 456 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:00,599 this isn't real life. You know the impacts of what people might say in 457 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,359 there, that they may say things that are not true, That are just 458 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,240 you know, a reflection of what that person may actually be feeling about themselves. 459 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,319 And they throw that onto other people on the internet and say, you 460 00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:15,319 know, awful things. That all has an impact on kids who are not 461 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:21,279 prepared for it. You know, we limit we limit tobacco for children. 462 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:25,839 They can't purchase tobacco. We limit alcohol, even driving to a certain extent. 463 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:29,359 They got to at least be sixteen. Why would we limit something that's 464 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,559 so psyched. Why wouldn't we have some sort of rules about something that's so 465 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:36,680 psychologically difficult for kids to grasp. We're not prepared, even the adults aren't 466 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,680 necessarily prepared for the impacts of social media. It's all an experiment and we're 467 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:45,400 we're the test subjects in real life. It's crazy. And on Hedgehog, 468 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,319 for example, everything's eighteen plus, we're not. We don't have any we 469 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:51,720 don't allow not safe for work content to the extent where you're you're not seeing 470 00:31:51,799 --> 00:31:55,640 nudity or pornography or anything. It's all conversations, news and impact. But 471 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,079 that should be reserved for people who kind of are adults, I think. 472 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,599 And how do you deal with moderation because I think basically everybody believes there should 473 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,240 be you know, minimal some minimal you know, the scale is a different 474 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:14,680 question, but some minimal moderation on these platforms. So how do you deal 475 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:15,799 with that now? I mean, nobody wants them to be four chan, 476 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,640 right, they don't want this mass thing to be four chan. That's for 477 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,079 a very niche slice of the public. John, So how do you deal 478 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:24,920 with it? And how do you think about it? Yeah? I mean 479 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,279 any major social media platform that's out there today that I've seen, like prefaces 480 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,400 social media platforms are there today, they are saying that they're a free speech 481 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,880 absolute platform. They're probably lying. Like when you take a look at Twitter 482 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,000 at what they're doing, obviously they're not free speech platform. You might say 483 00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:45,559 that, but if you post about Elon's jet, you're gonna get booted. 484 00:32:45,599 --> 00:32:51,680 And if you post about statistics on h Listen, there was a nonprofit that 485 00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:54,799 recently posted a bunch of statistics. They ran a content analysis on Twitter and 486 00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:59,640 they wanted to post statistics about how much of the engagement was hateful on Twitter, 487 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,400 and Elon sued them and you know didn't want that on Twitter. It's 488 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,000 like, Okay, that's obviously not pre speech absolutism, right, and it's 489 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,759 it doesn't make sense if you think about it too. Nobody wants to go 490 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:16,680 on a social media where everyone is posting dick pics, streaming about advertising and 491 00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:22,440 spamming about awful curse words and obscenities like, no one wants that. So 492 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:25,400 you have to design some kind of safeguards. On Hedgehog, everything that we 493 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,319 have goes through an AI that gets flagged to some moderators and they make sure 494 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:34,880 that it follows a basic terms of service. And what I mean by that 495 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,319 is these are black and white decisions. These are clear. Is this an 496 00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:40,759 incitement to violence? Yes, out done. That's that we can draw the 497 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:44,799 line there. We all agree. Is this nudity? Yes? Out It 498 00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:47,480 gets a little bit difficult with nudity and wanting to make sure that people can 499 00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:53,119 actually express themselves to some examples I'll provide, or like breastfeeding. It's really 500 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,400 that's like a timeless debate on social media is do you allow breastfeeding even though 501 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,680 it's nudity. Well, if you're an advocacy group for women, you might 502 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,079 want to consider allowing some of that. So there are some caveats there at 503 00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:09,159 which we have a not Safe for work filter for but for the most part, 504 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:14,480 everything's pretty clear cut. Then you get the complex decisions that have been 505 00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:19,519 plaguing social media, which have always, it seems in the last few years, 506 00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:24,280 completely overstep boundaries. And so you're talking during COVID, for example, 507 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,079 are you allowed to question the vaccine? Well, that's not in anyone's terms 508 00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,559 of service. If someone tries to claim it is, then they're full of 509 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:36,760 it because it's not. And so you have a central group of people at 510 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,679 all these other social platforms that then make the decision that, oh, today 511 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,480 the vaccine works. Tomorrow, okay, you can question it tomorrow, but 512 00:34:42,519 --> 00:34:44,719 if you question it in two weeks now, we're going to ban you again. 513 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:49,119 So that's what tip typical social media does. What we do is we 514 00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:52,360 say that's for the community decide. You vote on what you think is socially 515 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:53,719 acceptable on the platform. If you think it cross the boundary, then go 516 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,480 for it. You can delete it from your comment section on your posts. 517 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,719 You guys in the community can choose to not have it. But ultimately we're 518 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,159 not the ones making that decision. You are. You own it, and 519 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,840 I think that's the most freedom you can get on social media today, I 520 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:15,280 don't see any situation working out better. Back to the TikTok thinks, I'm 521 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:21,239 glad you brought that up. Obviously, TikTok was just the bill pass was 522 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,320 signed forcing a sale of TikTok. And what I mean is it is genuinely 523 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,199 a tough question. I won't pretend it's an easy questions when I sort of 524 00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:31,480 go back and forth on myself, But as someone who's been in the position 525 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:36,760 to collect you know, when you sign up for an app, you have 526 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,599 to give over your email address, for example, which is obviously a piece 527 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:45,559 of you know, it can be commodified by companies when they decide to commodify 528 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:46,280 it, et cetera, et cetera. So, as someone who's sort of 529 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,360 been in the position of developing this kind of technology, how scared are you 530 00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:57,239 by TikTok's current ownership And what did you make of the bill of forcing the 531 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,039 sale? Yeah, well it was It was really interesting. I watched the 532 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:06,960 reaction video of TikTok's CEO when they got banned, and he was talking about 533 00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:09,880 American values. In his video, he was saying about how in America free 534 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:16,639 speech is so important and TikTok gives free speech. Bah So I agree in 535 00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:22,559 part with him, not completely. So first I place, the reason that 536 00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:27,920 this bill is happening is quite simply because the government has been unable to protect 537 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,039 kids from social media. They're still unable to and this bill passing does not 538 00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:36,519 protect kids anymore tomorrow from social media than it did the day before. It's 539 00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:39,840 patching a hole and doing it in a way that is more akin to the 540 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,480 CCP than the USA. If you go about banning companies, and by the 541 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,719 way, the mechanism that they're going to use, if TikTok does not sell, 542 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,519 the government's not going to say TikTok's illegal. The government's going to put 543 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:57,559 their arm on Amazon, on Google, and on Apple to do exactly what 544 00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,480 they did to Parlor. They're putting their arm on these company needs to do 545 00:37:00,519 --> 00:37:05,800 it to TikTok. In essence, the government is weaponizing private companies to ban 546 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,920 an app. And that is the scariest thing. They're picking and choosing favorites 547 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,440 and banning people. That is awful, and that is scarier than anything else. 548 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,519 And I don't care if TikTok is in the hands of the CCP. 549 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,519 That's a different question and a different problem that we need to solve. That 550 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:25,599 problem is solved by creating proper rules for kids. If we can protect kids 551 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:30,239 from social media, not just the CCP. We need to protect them from 552 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,239 Mark Zuckerberg. We got to protect them from Twitter, we got to protect 553 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,760 them from TikTok and whatever new apps are coming out that we don't yet know 554 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,039 the impact of on kids. That's a completely different problem because right now all 555 00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:47,119 the government is saying China bad. We're going to sacrifice our own free market, 556 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:52,320 our own free competition. We're sacrificing our principles here in order to put 557 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:58,920 down TikTok, while ignoring the fact that everybody else in this industry is still 558 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,559 a bad actor when it comes to kids, and we're doing nothing about that. 559 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,519 John, before we wrap, can you tell everyone where to get on 560 00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:10,239 hedgehog. Sure, yeah, it's hedgehog dot com, hedgehog Social. If 561 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,400 you go to the app stores and you download it and you'll sign in, 562 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,719 make an account. And really, if you're going to go on hedgehog, 563 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,000 you start on the top stories page, read the comments, engage with people. 564 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,199 If you find a headline article on there you like or dislike, leave 565 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,760 a little reaction, have fun with it. It's hedgehog dot com and I'll 566 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,639 be in there talking with you. There you go. Well, John, 567 00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:34,559 thank you so much for sabby my Federalist Radio Hour and sharing some of your 568 00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:37,519 thoughts from all of this perspective. That's incredibly helpful. Yeah. Thanks, 569 00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:42,079 Emily, that's nice. Of course you've been listening to another edition of the 570 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:45,440 Federalist Radio Hour. I'm I'm Alagishinski, culture editor here at The Federalist. 571 00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:46,840 We'll be back soon with more. Until then, Be the Lover is a 572 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:59,480 freedom, and it's just more a frame, right,